Aimpoint vs Vector Putting, and Grok's 25 Best Putters | Ep. 5의 전체 녹취록

you can still buy on eBay, the you know, the the later models, late 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, had a little circle, about, let's say, maybe not quite as big as a quarter, nickel size circle, white. Depressed, like a little cutout, and then like almost a sticker in there. And and then I think it was a sticker. And at the very front of it, a dot, exactly like the ping, right? So I put those two next to each other in an ex post to kind of, you know, not not everything n old is new again or or what. You know, I think there's some actually new stuff in the world. But there's something about that dot. speaker-1: W working for Wyndham, that's for sure. speaker-0: You can make any more putts than he's made in the last couple of ⁓ couple of tournaments. Okay, so we we we we've established that the ball makes somewhat of a difference or or a pretty good difference. And we've talked about the grass, you know, Poe versus Bent versus Bermuda versus whatever. But what about green reading? This topic from a real detailed point of view was just not talked about, John, when we were young college players. Not not talked about. It was a black art. Right. And and now it's it's you know it's a lot less than a black art because there's there's been several books. About when did that vector putting book come out? speaker-1: Now you're testing me. ⁓ I'm gonna say it's sometime. It's before two thousand for sure. I think you have to look for the copyright, but I I I'd think it was sometime late eighties, early nineties. I don't know that for sure. So I'm not gonna say that with any kind of definitive speaker-0: Did the book Vector Putting get published? No, that's bad English. But we see how fast in real time our friends at X with Grok can do that. 1984. The book is Vector Putting, The Art and Science of Reading Greens and Computing Break by A, I'm sorry, H. A. Templeton. Air Force Corner. speaker-1: I was tired. speaker-0: Colonel. It was published by Vector Golf, so it's self-published in Fort Worth, Texas. This is a well known and quite technical golf green reading method that's still so this guy comes up with vector if they're they're available on eBay. Sometimes they they hit you for big numbers, sometimes yeah, sometimes you can get lucky. But it was sort of the forerunner, right, of all the modern green reading. speaker-1: Yeah. In fact, it had ⁓ something called the aim point. Aim point. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So you would have the the ⁓ the zero brake line, which is the fall line, like skiers know what fall lines are. Yep. And so you have a zero brake line and then you'd figure out how many feet you were from the hole. speaker-0: So just for the folks, you know, we always, you know, the the rest of the folks at funnel always say, explain, explain. Okay. So the fall line would be, please correct me, John, if if I'm wrong, is that you would take a ball and you would let's let's just say put it on the green and perfectly send it forward, like with a machine or something,

you know, perfect square hit, and it would not break, but it was downhill. speaker-1: Right. It's a zero Yeah. Yeah. So you find out where the zero break is, either it whether it's uphill or downhill, or the net zero. Because sometimes you're not gonna be able to find any zero, zero, but you kind of find the net zero. But mo most of the time you can. All right. So you find one of those two, especially the zero, and you figure out how far you are from the hole. Now, most of the time I've been told that people that ⁓ do the vector, you could either do the you know, three foot. speaker-0: Throw break downhill pu speaker-1: strides, which would give you like a yard, and then you do the math. Or because I'm not particularly tall, so I have long legs, I can do a military step, which is two steps equals five feet. So it's like I think it's like a 36, not a 36 inch. It's a 30 30 inch step. So you don't have to go 36. So 30 twice is 60, divide that by 12. That's five feet, right? So I go one, two, three, four, ten. Right. So you figure out how far you are, and then you determine the slope or the percentage of slope on the zero, not like from U A to B. That's where aim point and vector differ. So you find find like the zero or excuse me, the zero break line, you figure out what the what the fall is, like what the percentage of slope is. Let's say if it's two percent, that's where the Mike, Mike Scheid guy who taught me how to do it. So just start everybody at 2%. It's really easy to do. So you figure out, let's say you're 10 feet away and you're the the zero break or has a 2% slope. You would plot a point up the zero brake line an inch per foot that you are away from the hole. So 10 feet, you go 10 inches up the zero brake and you putt toward that. It's called the aim point. So if you're only a little bit off the zero, that 10, 10 inch plotted point, the aim point is like right edge. So if you go 90 degrees to the zero brake line, then you're gonna be punting at 10 inches from the center of the hole. And that's the general formula. Now, as you extend outward. Or you th the the the percentage of slope goes up, it extends outward and you kinda have like the sliding scale. So for instance, if you were on a four percent and you were ten feet away, it'd be twenty inches, right? But generally it's gonna be a little bit more than that, twenty one or twenty two. So there are books out there. speaker-0: Let me try to break let me try to break that down for everybody. Okay. So you've got you've got a putt. It it's sh you figure out where straight uphill or downhill is. So you know that line goes through the hole, right? Straight uphill, ⁓ it goes through the hole, it's still uphill on the other side, it's uphill to you. Downhill, still downhill on the other side. So you this long line. So two percent slope, it would be for for speaker-1: Okay. Okay. speaker-0: for you know newbie golfers, you can definitely see it. It it it's tilted a little bit and you can feel it

in your feet. The first obvious slope. It's not like 1% is a little subtle. Two, you got it, right? Okay. speaker-1: Sure. So now so Mike Mike says whenever you have a slope that you can see, start at two. speaker-0: Okay, so now I've got this line drawn through the hole on the zero break. Okay, but I'm not on it because I was on it. I don't need to read nothing. Just knock that sucker in, right? Hard enough, soft enough, whatever. But I'm to the side of it. So let's say, just imagine, folks, a 36-inch, you know, yard stick you buy from Home Depot, right? You put it in a hole straight, let's say uphill. straight uphill, and then you go thirty-six inches like a T square off of that. So then you put a ball there. So now on a two percent slope with thirty-six, you know, from the hole and thirty-six sideways, where on this thirty-six inches am I aiming? speaker-1: You're talking about a two percent slope at ten feet? speaker-0: No, no. Thirty six inches. And thirty six inches to the side. speaker-1: If if if you were if you were playing thirty six ⁓ the the aim point thirty six inches up the slope, it would be thirty six feet from the hole. So you plot the point. I I don't think I understand what your question. speaker-0: I did a bad job. I'm I'm going to get I'm trying to help everybody who's just listening. So I'm first time I've heard it too, right? This way. Okay. So I go get a yardstick at Home Depot, blows, ace hardware. I put it in the hole and it's a straight downhill putt. Let's just make it a straight downhill putt. And then I'm gonna take ⁓ the you know, ⁓ put a T in the ground right there. Straight straight up straight downhill putt, 36 inches. Now I'm gonna take the same stick and I'm gonna go off at a 90 degree angle, 36 inches. So I don't know how far that makes me from the hole, but a little bit further than 36 inches, right? I didn't go in a circle, I just went in a T square. So I've got this like 40-inch putt. And I know I know the I know where this fall line is. The ball's gonna go straight down that hill if I was but where I put that T in the ground. So I'm 40 inches from the hole, let's say, going back toward that that, you know. imaginary line where that yardstick was. How many inches up from that do I have to aim? speaker-1: So if you were 40 inches, that's basically a little bit more than ⁓ three feet, right? Yeah. Right. So you would aim, so you aim at the the the calculation is from the center of the hole. So so you'd basically be about four four inches up the hill. So it'd be about two inches outside the hole. Now if it's downhill, if you're downhill, you put you give it a little bit more because the ball's gonna be rolling more slowly. And if it's really fast downhill, you might even go up to six or eight inches. speaker-0: Three and a half feet or so. speaker-1: So it it kind of just depends. But I the way I like to explain it to people and then let them kind of fiddle with it is you get ninety degrees to zero brake line,

however far you're gonna go. Let's say you have like the elevated string. You remember that? The little two barbecue screwers you know, ⁓ chopsticks with the with with the you know, string or whatever. speaker-0: For the for the folks at home and in the car and or whatever, right? Get a string and and take a ⁓ fork, right? Everybody knows what a fork is, right? Stick the fork in the ground and tie the string to the top of the fork. And then go out, beat, put another fork and tie it. So now you have a string on that line that's the zero brake line. And if a ball rolls you know underneath it, it doesn't come near the string. speaker-1: Number four. speaker-0: Okay, John? speaker-1: Okay. Okay. So now now you have let's say you have ten ⁓ fifteen foot of string, right? Between the two forks. So you have the zero brake line. Let's say you're f you're fifteen feet away. You put the fork in the in the ground about two feet behind your ball, let's say. So you're gonna only be thirteen feet away because you only have fifteen set of fift fifteen feet of string. So now you would take the other fork and move it far enough up the hill, putting underneath the string. Until you make the putt, or you know that you're pretty close to having the right amount of borrow, right? And that would determine how much the ball breaks for you. So if you were 13 feet, we were able, let's say we're putting from 13 feet, because we have 15 foot string. We have to go a couple couple feet in front of this fork so you have a backstroke, right? So you would position the other fork up the hill. Let's say if you're putting just side to on the side of the hill, 13 inches, let's say, and you putt. And if if it goes in the hole, you've got it. If it if it's not You know, it's not going in the hole and you need put it more or less, that's where you can have your aim point. So anywhere you would go, if you like, what do you call it? ⁓ you you walk like you like a radius, like we walk around in a circle the same distance from equal distant from where you are, you're theoretically putting it that same fork. So you're putting the so that that other fork is the aim point. Now that will change but no matter what. speaker-0: That in a place that the the putt the straight putt to the second fork from the you know in a couple inches enough to make a backswing from the first fork, you're putting at the second fork, but you move the fork so that that straight putt, if it was level, goes toward that zero line. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So it just it's when it loses speed or at any point it's gonna break and and so that helps you determine where the zero is. So that's the easiest way to do it without any of the calculation. But funny enough, if you do, you know, you put the the digital level on that zero break line, you're gonna see that it's it's gonna match pretty well. I mean, it's not gonna be perfect because there's no such thing as exactly two unless you just sat there and just plotted out. But

But it's gonna be maybe two point five. If it's two point five, you're gonna it's gonna be a little higher. If it's one point eight, it'll be a little bit lower. And it also depends on how you hit it. But so this this is a way that, you know, I'm not an aim point ⁓ certified instructor, but like let's say if you did do that. Was that speaker-0: A vector was there ever a vector putting certification of any kind? speaker-1: I think there was, but they they ⁓ they ran into some problems, let's just say. So that's that's the story. speaker-0: Law there was a lawsuit, right? There was a lawsuit between vector and aim point. speaker-1: No. Or or vice versa. Or vice versa. Okay. But but yeah, I I don't know enough about it to and to you know talk about it with any kind of certainty. speaker-0: either. I just know I know it existed, right? So it's pretty funny. speaker-1: That it it wasn't it wasn't funny it w it it wasn't funny for the people on the wrong side of that argument. But but both can work and of course anybody that has their own green reading system is gonna find fault in the other one. But you know, they're pretty near. And then, you know, like once you do enough of this, you get it it takes a while. But you you get better at any of ⁓ Like I think Bryson still uses Vector. If you look on tour, the majority of the guys out there, especially Kenyan ⁓ trained guys, they use aim point and they do it well. Jake does aim point. So I I I don't think that there's any one that's better than another, personally. I you know, I I'm old enough where I just hit enough putts where I can just look at the line and just keep drawing a line until it goes in. Like Nicholas did that. He wasn't putting his fingers up, Tiger wasn't putting his fingers up. So see you can get to that point. speaker-0: So when I was, when I I don't know if you've got to see the Brian Manzella show, the very fancy name Brian Manzella show on YouTube, episode two or three, episode two or three, I recreate, I tried to recreate a putt that David Toms had in the 2001, might have been Freeport McMoran, whoever the sponsor was then, New Orleans opened, as far as I'm concerned, the New Orleans PGA tour event. And I found that I got I was lucky the day we shot. I could at least putt the same direction. I was a little further over in the green. It was basically the same putt. It was about a thirty-five footer, maybe a little bit longer. And it broke like five or six feet. Decent amount. And the whole story was Scotty Niser walked up there to tell David he's got Mickelson behind him. The holes, one of the hardest holes on tour back then. The course played easy that year. I think David shot like zero. On the the last two rounds, like 127 or something the last two rounds. But the the point is Mickelson, if if David two putts, Mickelson has to make birdie just to get in a playoff. And it's probably not gonna happen. It's really hard hole. And Scotty was about to tell David, why don't we, woo, wa,

why don't we mosey this one down there, you know, like close to the whole laggate? And David, like everybody's going crazy because it's it would have been his first win in Louisiana and LSU, Tigers, Tigers, I didn't know what the hell was going on on TV. Why are they cheering for Tiger Woods? He's not here this week. It was hilarious. I'm watching on TV in Louisville. And the place is going Ape S-H-I-T, right? And David being David. This is why David's, you know, gonna be in the Hall of Fame one day. He before Scotty gets out, why don't we mosey it down there? He goes, What do you think these people do if I make this? I can tell you, he made it and they went. Absolutely, it was at least in the top five loudest, longest, loudest cheers on a golf course on TV in my lifetime. Because it was like five minutes of just pandemonium, like everybody just won the lottery or something. It's ridiculous. The point is to this whole recreating that story for you. I know if you knew it. I did what the way I always read those kind of putts was I found the Straight in downhill putt, right? And then I said, okay, that's like the straight shot on the interstate. That's just the interstate. And you know how you enter the interstate, right? So we enter it from the left side because it was a right to left breaker. And I would always say, okay, where do I want knowing the putt's gonna break on the way? It's a long putt. It's gonna break on the way to this line, this fall line. I gotta play that break, A, and two. Where do I want it to enter the interstate? So that it can just go straight down into the hole and go into the, you know, the hole on the in the on the clock a certain way. Is that asinod or is that like a halfway decent way to do it? speaker-1: I think it's halfway decent, but I think, you know, when what if you get a big enough break, it's gonna be breaking the whole way. Maybe at the very end it won't. But you know, if if you were gonna track the last five feet of a putt like that, it's probably not going straight. It's still curving. It's still curving. It's still curving, yeah. So I have but it's not it's not it's it's not a bad way to think about it. 'Cause at least you're gonna probably play it high enough to be able to do that. So speaker-0: And my feeling always the reason it helped me personally was if you're thinking about entering into this straight, you know, basically it's like taking the fall on forks or, you know, there's tools for that folks you can buy on Amazon. And and, you know, 15 feet away, I put a T like 15 foot up the hill. And realizing it's it's it's probably gonna break a little bit on the fall on, maybe not too much, but but I I I if you have to hit it hard enough to get on the interstate. And if you hit it too hard, you go through the interstate in the trees and hit the fence on the other side. So it was good for me for speed. And I almost made the second one in in the taping, you know, it's a really it you know, really the putt that David made was kind of ridiculous that he even thought he could make it, but that's the difference between, you know, champions and Schmoes like you and me that really could play golf, but just couldn't play that good under under the heat. But why do you think aim point has not become more used at the regular golfer level when basic like Aim Point Express is pretty easy. You walk up there, you do your feet, you go, okay, it's four percent. You know, it's a big breaking putt. You hold your four fingers up and you go. I mean, you can do it faster than you can just read a putt. So why do you think it's just the way it looks? It's got a negative connotation. People don't wanna learn anything like golf swing stuff, they don't wanna learn anything either. I'm not gonna change my grip on why why do you think it hasn't taken over? Because obviously it's taken over on tour. speaker-1: I think it takes takes a lot of work. So so the people that that give up on it, they try it and they don't really give it enough time and and they get frustrated and they go, I just not gonna do this. But it'd be it'd be like let's say if if you wanted to be able to sing the highest note that you can sing on a scale and be able to get it without straining, you're gonna have to do a lot of work, you know, breath work and learning how to relax your throat and all these different things to be able to do that, you know, and if if you can't stomach the work that you need to do to be able to do a difficult thing, then sometimes you give up. So the people that come to me sometimes that have been with other coaches that insisted they used aim point and they didn't want to do it. And it was like a sticking point. They came to me and they said, I want to do aim point. And I'm like, well, let's suspend it for a while, but don't don't think that it's not going to help you someday. But right now, if you figure that that's just a little bit ⁓ mu more than you want to do, okay. You're all right with it. But you know, the the professionals It's it's their job to make butts to make, you know, that big money that's out there, right? So they're they're willing to do the work. So, you know, you look at Justin Rose or Matthew Fitzpatrick or any of those guys that ⁓ that Kenyan tutors, ⁓ Max Hoom Mahoma, excuse me. They all do it. They all do it and they're successful at it. Like I said, Jake does it and he's really good at it. So it's just like anything else. You just have to work at it. And some people just give up because it's, you know, it's not not easy to be good at. speaker-0: So what would you tell the folks listening if they're one of those people? I don't want to spend two hundred dollars for a vector putting thing. I don't want to do the math. I don't like the way aimpoint looks. I'm never doing it. But I'm a bad green reader. And you're a putting expert, Mr. Otega. What would you tell them to do to work on their ability to re-green the old fashioned way, let's say? speaker-1:

I've I've had a little bit this recently. I get it a lot, but I still recommend that they get a digital level so that they can find a zero break putt. So just start with that and then go divergent from the zero and just keep hitting putts just a little bit higher and a little bit higher until you make it, right? Then in your mind, just figure you're you're putting toward wherever that spot is, like the the aim point. You don't have to use it that use that ⁓ term. And you just kind of go around and just a point at that same spot with e even Even before you do like an A to B, like you put the the level between your ball and the hole and do the finger thing, you don't have to do that if you don't want to do that right now. Just find the zero, go off the zero. The farther off the zero you go, the more it breaks. And then what I have them do, if they don't buy one of my groove boards, which I usually recommend that they do, but they can just use an aiming stick, like an alignment stick, and put it on the high side and put the ball on the low side and just keep moving the stick until they hit it. Where it goes in the hole and step behind and then go to the other side and see where they're actually aiming. And then just in in a way, you're just kind of taking a photo with your mind. You're going, okay, that's what it looks like. Okay. And then and then you just go on. So you just keep doing that over and over. And eventually you're going to become like pretty in tune with like the about spot, we'll call it, the ish spot. And you just like you look at a putt and you go, ⁓ it's about there. And you hit the putt. And that's I pretty much think that that's what happens with people that are really good at green reading. using their, you know, their their internal GPS, let's call it. They just do they just do enough of that and they're and they're in tune with where they're really aiming. So I don't think there are very many people that are good that aim poorly and just luck out and find the line. I think they aim well, they know where to aim and they just work it out. So it it can be done. And like I said, I I didn't see Wyndham Clark ever doing his fingers, but he may have done aim point at some time or another. He may have done something similar to what I just explained. So it I think you can you can you can arrive at being a decent green reader without the green reading systems. But if you do one of those systems, yeah, you know, I I think they're good. I but it just it just takes work. And some people just don't want to do work, especially with putting, because you know, with with putting sometimes when people fail at it, let's just say, it's almost embarrassing. So they're there it's like they just want to they want to stomach it. But you know, if they if they can push past that. Become good putters, then all of a they become in love, they love putting. It's just it's it's just like changes their whole world. So I've had some people come to me, not very

good putters, didn't have a good attitude about putting. They became good putters and all of a sudden they just love putting. So, you know, putting is fun in general because it's just means something. Yeah, and it and like like if you if you go to Costa Mesa i in the afternoon, we'll have actually a public, a little bit of an embellishment. speaker-0: It actually means something on this shit Club goes to Mesa Country Club. speaker-1: But if you come in the afternoon speaker-0: The Rock Hill Golf and Country Club is public. Yeah. Michael Jacobs' place. Yeah. speaker-1: There will be a minimum of six people on either a green and there's sometimes as many as ten. And I have a couple of guys that's that they come every night and and they they hit putts all the way across the green. I don't know what their thing is, but they just like these cross country putts. speaker-0: I love cross country putting I love long putting it. speaker-1: I just love it. This and I forgot to bring this one one of the guys, like the other night, I was on fire. I was just making everything. I was pitting a putting a kid for money. It was actually pretend money because I didn't was gonna make him pay. But but I was just killing it. He's going, My God, did you ever miss? And I'm like, well, hopefully not tonight. You know, I'm w working this kid over. So a couple kids from China and from Hong Kong, they came and you know, we battled and it was one of my my more glorious days recently. I got my butt kicked by two of the girls. speaker-0: When you when you play people for my you know I'm thinking of Caddyshack. I don't play people for Yes. When you what's the game? What what's the when you speaker-1: People for money. We we we do different ones, but recently we've been stuck on this one. It's great. We play, we call it two ⁓ one, two, two, four, three, six, and four, eight. So what that means is you one putt, if you one putt, you get two dollars. If you three putt, you're penalized one dollar. And then at some point you ramp it up to two, four, and then you go three six or six three, and then you go four eight, and sometimes we even go sixteen eight. And that's at the end when we know there's only a couple putts that we're gonna do. And we wouldn't I don't usually put short putts on those for the for the the two one or the four twos, all all when I have the T, I I you know we we alternate two T's off first. I'll do those ones that are like inside eight feet. So I if I make it I put pressure on them. If I don't make it they've seen the line and they make it and they give me the they give me the business. So the two little girls that beat me out of forty bucks like two weeks ago, that's what happened. And ⁓ man God that I I didn't hear the end of it. I told them little girls speaker-0: They never. speaker-1: Bring your money next time, I'm not gonna be nice. I'm not gonna be nice. So speaker-0: So I I know I've probably asked you this before, but d have you ever played the putting game eleven? speaker-1: We play twenty one. Is that the one where you you get certain amount of points for make and certain amount of points for being close? speaker-0: You three you get three points for an eleven, you get three points for make, which means that me and John are putting on the pebble beach practice putting green around the clock, right? And I make it, I get three points. John putts second because we flipped the coin. He makes it, he gets three points. The next hole, I lag it up there to an inch. John lags it inside of my one inch butt. He gets one point, I get nothing. So only one point. Only one person can get the one point, but both people can get the three points. Okay. Now what you're trying to do is get 11 on the number. And the whole game winds up being that, okay, if you got eight points and I've got seven points, all you got to do and you got the T, you make it, it's over. First person to 11. But of course, if you miss it, you got to watch, but what happens if you miss it? Because let's just say you barely miss it and you were lagging it and you got two feet. I'm just gonna putt putt backwards and give you the nine points. Now, if you make it, ⁓ you can't go over. So if you if you if you make a ace on nine or ten, you go over eleven, you go back to zero. And it's just a lot of strategy. And that's the game that I played the most coming up because that's what they played at City Park when we had 81 holes and there was people everywhere. The all the old guys did it, the young guys who were really good players and really good butters did it. And I got good enough at it. Well, I don't remember David Thomas ever. I mean, he might have beaten me a game, but if we played three or four games or or whatever, he would never it it it was fought I fought him to a draw. Now it'd be very interesting when people r listen to that. The two the two things I would do against David is we would play eleven every now and then. We maybe probably play 30 games of 11 ever. And then the other thing, like early in the in his career, when I was like earlier and closer to my original Ben Doyle days, I would take a three iron out, his three iron, and I would like Ben Doyle chip. You know, Ben didn't want you choking up. So I'm I got a three iron standing pretty far from the ball, but I got my little narrow stance open and I would chip with the three iron against David. And we would putt one time around the clock, like at Durral or Memphis, where I remember doing it. And he'd start me one up. So we play four holes, I'm one up already, and I'm putting with a three on. And it was a draw. And when I used to tell people that on the internet, they would say, That's the you're the biggest liar of all time. Because you you you can't putt good as David Thompson. No shit. But this is practice putting green putting. And what people need to understand about that, that's two different sports. That's like putt-putt golf. and PGA tour golf, which leads us to

fun with groc, I would say. I asked grok, hey grok, can you ⁓ do me a favor here for the show? Can you give me your 25 best putters? Not the thing you putt with, but the the ⁓ speaker-1: What is speaker-0: putties of all time. So I'm gonna we'll start from the top here and we'll see what you think and what I think. And it'll be a nice segment here on the show. Okay, top 25 putters, Tiger Woods. It says the gold standard for clutch putting under the brightest lights made seemingly every must-make putt in the majors for two decades. And Fax and ⁓ because you know Faxon knows everything. I like Brad just fine. Named him number one. What do you think about Tiger being the best putter of all time? speaker-1: If you're going clutch putts, I'd I'd have to like maybe nex out lit Nicholas a little bit, but Nicholas was pretty good making putts when it mattered too. So let's look speaker-0: Putting, but but but if we're talking about putting, we're not just talking about clutch putting. Your tournament starts on Thursday, right? speaker-1: Yeah, okay. I'll I'll give him that. I'll give him that. I'm not gonna argue that. I think that would be a hard argument to win, but you know, you might if you're like a Ben Crenshaw fan or ⁓ somebody that didn't hit the ball very well but was successful, you go, Well, if it hadn't been for their putter, they wouldn't be who they are. So you know, if you were gonna throw somebody in front of Tiger, it would have to be one of those guys. So if you get like somebody's a yeah. speaker-0: So anyway, I'll give you the next three because then you know because you're talking about some of them right now. So old grock has Nicholas Second, same thing, sinking putts in the biggest moments, Crenshaw for stroke, feel, and ability to hold 25 footers with massive brakes, and Bobby Locke. And they have Fax in five, which no chance. But anyway, go go ahead. What do you think of that? Like kind of initial list. speaker-1: I'll go with ⁓ Ben Crenshaw. I didn't see Bobby Locke, but you know, I I researched a little bit, if you want to call it that, on YouTube. And I didn't see him make a whole lot of putts. So to me, to me, I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna go with Bobby Locke, ⁓ but I've heard he was really good, but I never saw it. But I think I think you gotta go Billy Casper. Billy Casper pretty damn good. Like there I think he holds I don't know if he holds the record for the the fewest number of putts in Something or another, like a USO. speaker-0: Yes. And and just so you know how silly these these people are here. Whoever's programming Grok, no Billy Casper. So three majors, right? And and ⁓ I know at the end he was playing in the masters way past his time because he felt like he, you know, he earned it. What the heck they told him he had a lifetime exemption and he was he was gonna push it. So I speaker-1: The dinners are good. He's gonna show up. speaker-0: Yeah, he's gonna show up for the dinner and he's gonna he but let me say this. I I saw him putting person and it was good. I I just didn't think it was I think he's gotta be up there, definitely in the top twenty. I don't know why that this left it off because there's plenty of information on the internet that he was one of the best putters of all time. But I think the deal with Locke, Crenshaw I think is more style. He's the first person that looked like he was putting the way he putted. And and and and then I think Mickelson pretty much copied him and and overdid some of the exaggerated some of the Crenshaw moves. But I mean he was a nice looking guy when he was younger. I mean he's okay looking guy now. I'm not any judge of men's looks, but you you got me. He was a he was an idol, he was a star on the tour early on, and he's he's got this, you know, little eighty-eight ⁓ two putter. D was it an 8802 that was the little Ben, gentle Ben putter, or or was it a design by? Do you know that? I mean, it's the same putter. speaker-1: Eighty eight ⁓ two, for sure. I actually held it. speaker-0: I have video right in that cabinet of him putting and he was just goofing around, right? With a long putter, an anchored long putter in nineteen ninety-two at Memphis. It's pretty funny. And he saw that on video and he thought it was funny. Cause back then, you know, video cameras were this big. It wasn't like I was gonna pull my phone up and look like I was looking at it. But I saw him, I saw, okay, first of all, I mean, I think there was a period of time where Tiger was probably the best putter in golf, period. Like he made more twenty footers and he just probably strokes gained putting. You probably can look that up. I don't think Nicholas was ever that guy. I think what Nicholas was able to do is and he went on streaks like anybody that obvious obviously, you know, thirty-seven firsts and seconds in professional majors, right? But he was the guy just like Tiger, you know, that made the five, six, seven footer that he had to make on the last hole with the whole world watching. I don't think he made that many putts during the week. And I don't really think Crenshaw kind of did either. You know, to me, if you're picking a putter list, and I mean you got to weigh majors and fame and all that, don't you have to pick the people that, like you said, might have not even been tour players if they couldn't putt real good. I'll give you one that's on this list, I think. ⁓ Billy Casper Seven. Very sorry. Sorry, Grok. ⁓ Elon, please don't dock my my pay. Jerry Let me let me read the whole list. Okay, and then we then then I'll hear what you say. Okay, so Woods, Nicholas, Crenshaw, Bobby Lock, Faxen, Tom Watson, Casper, Sevy, Lauren Roberts was the person I was gonna give you. Definitely not a tour player if he's not either a top butter, one, two, three. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Definitely top 10 his whole career. Stricker wouldn't have been as good if he wouldn't have been as good a putter. Speith in his putt-making prime made more 25

footers down the stretch of anybody I've ever seen. Hale Irwin, Mickelson, no chance he's in a top 20. Player, Olathaball, absolutely Raymond Floyd, Justin Leonard, Greg Norman, Paven. David Wayne Toms, Payne Stewart, Dave Stockton, Paul Runyon, Jerry Barber, and Luke Donald with honorable mentions, Bobby Jones, Isaiah Wyoki, definitely in my top 20. Goosen, when he putted good, it was ridiculous. Langer, Palmer, and his peak. Sorenstam in B Park. Okay. You got me. If somebody is is on that list, like there's a couple of them that I don't even think. they ever won a tournament or stayed on the tour for any length of time unless they were just a phenomenal putter, that's gotta really weigh pretty h heavy as who's the best putters of all time, no? speaker-1: If if you're just going putting only for sure, like over like what you're talking about seventy two holes or their career. Yeah, yeah. So I I I don't know how much whoever Grok depended on ⁓ for, you know, compiling that list, whether they knew about guys like let's say Morris Sotalski or speaker-0: Towski, absolutely unbelievably best putter on tour at some point and a very I mean, hey Morris, if you if you're you're listening to this, you were okay ball striker, but you were a really good putter. speaker-1: Alan Tapey. Alan Tapey was a ridiculous putter. And not that he hit the ball poorly, but you know, tour standards, you know, he was average at best. So I've met Alan. He's a good guy. Played golf with him. I gave him some money, you know. I didn't give it willingly, but he played pretty good, right? Still. But ⁓ there's certain certain guys like that. ⁓ you know, now that I've been put on the spot, I can't think of them all. I've had some time to research. There you go. speaker-0: Jay Siegel. ⁓ You know why those names came up together? What what is similar about the putting strokes of Don Pooley and Jay Siegel? speaker-1: Trying to remember. Don Pooley. Was he kind of a little bit poppy? No? Like a little. speaker-0: Both of ⁓ picked the putter up up to the ball and then made a stroke. There's somebody doing that now, right? I I don't know who. speaker-1: You mean raise the club up in the air, just kinda like Nicholas did with his hitting? Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: I think so. So what what most people don't understand is if you take a normal putter, what's more normal than a ping answer and all the non million copies, including the Don Byron's, right? speaker-1: Deal head. Ours was one of the first ones though. We we're original copiers. speaker-0: Original copyers and and some of the best. Okay. You know I didn't know that Speath putted with a a a a David Mills, T P. Mills putter. I never knew that. speaker-1: I think he might still be. speaker-0: I I've got a David Mills, TP Mills putter over there. I think I'll maybe put it in one of the shows and had it my hand. You know, he he said, I'm gonna make your putter, you know, because he he felt like I ⁓ I was helping him and you know, you know, talking to David and some other guys. And I said, you know, because I've always thought you know they they did a great job. And I should have got a like a TPM one right style, like David put it with, but I said, No, I want an answer. So he made me a three degree flat. answer put B man's on it and all that stuff. Great, great putter. I had no idea that that's very similar to the putter that Speed uses. But if you took that putter, do you know off the top of your putter designer head what the height of the face of an answer Scottsdale, Ping Scottsdale answer putter is. speaker-1: One inch. speaker-0: One inch. A golf ball is one point six eight, correct? speaker-1: Yeah, one point six eight ain't the weight. That's how you remember it. Yeah, one point six eight. speaker-0: One point six two is the weight, right? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, so but the way you differentiate when you go one point six eight ain't the weight. speaker-0: There you go. Okay. So you've got a putter that's an inch high. You got a ball that's one point six eight inches high. So if the middle of the putter is not lined up with the equator of the ball, you have to have the putter raise up some kind of way to is that about where you want to hit a putt, the middle of the ball in the middle of the putter? It seems logical. I've always taught it, but speaker-1: Give or take, or maybe just a little bit above that. But wherever it is, is if it's consistent, pretty good, other than if you hit it off the bottom. If you hit it too far on the bottom or too far up the top, not good. But like on the Sam Putt lab, they have like this sweet spot thing, you know, right to left and up and down the vertical. In fifteen millimeters is right in the middle of that little gray area of, you know, where all the tour players over the years have been measured and you know, they come up with these averages, like this is pretty good, this is pretty good, and in the middle might be the best, but You know, d talking to Bib, Bib was about a f fifteen millimeter guy and that's pretty close to the center of the putter, but it might be fractionally above it for just a little bit. So the higher you hit it up speaker-0: So if you had the putter just brushing the grass, you're gonna hit it really high up the face, correct? So that's that's what the deal was. Those two guys, I think I measured it one time, it's like you put four dimes on top of each other. That's about how high the putter needed to be. They they just lifted it up. They just lifted the putter up in the air and they putted from there. They were both unbelievable putters. I think I think the thing about lock, first of all, speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: He played golf very different than most people. He he hit a pronounced right-to-left t-shot and all other shots. So he was always set up on all his shots to play this big hook. And he hooked it every time. I mean by the hip two fades a year, it's because he was behind a tree or something. And and he

looked like that's what he was doing with his butts. Like everybody thought he hooked his putts. Stop seeing his stroke. I don't think he hooked his putts at all, but it doesn't matter. I've seen people try to cut their butts, but I've never seen people that would really look like they were actually hooking their butts. Although Tiger used to say he felt like he was. I think the thing about Locke, you know, hitting a high draw, Tiger. The thing about Locke is I think he made lots and lots and lots and lots of long putts, sort of in the J Jordan Speith in his I hate to say in his prime, but right now in his prime. Faxon was a guy who made A bunch of putts when he was hot, right? Isn't that the main thing with facts? And he he got very hot. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: I don't I don't know if he if there was a whole lot of he had to make a ten footer and then he made it. I don't know about that, but I know that on a good week he you know, he could shoot a really low number if he was hitting it halfway decent. So he speaker-1: How many tournaments did he win? What they get how many tournaments did he win? Ten May asked Mr. Grok. speaker-0: Ten. Brad Faxen won eight times on the PK tour. speaker-1: Got me by one. I was close. Seven. Two speaker-0: Two times on the champions tour. Two times on a champions tour. Yeah, so okay, go ahead. speaker-1: So with seven. Was seven seven ⁓ I mean eight total between the two tours? So and two of them of two of which were on the champions tour? speaker-0: No, no, separately. speaker-1: Okay, so we had ten. Ten between the two. Okay, pretty good. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ Watson. So when there were five years in a row, I think he was player of the year or something like that, maybe ranked number one in the world. It was five years in a row. ⁓ he loved New Orleans. He won at least once. He may have won twice here. I watched him play in eighty-two with my idol Johnny Miller, who at that point was a terrible putter. Okay. At some point he was a good putter when Andy Martinez could squat behind him and You know it he he got he he he got hot in you know seventy late I don't think he did that in the US Open. So this was like a seventy-four thing. They started, Andy started doing that. The squatting behind him while he putted. And what Miller said, I I never asked him personally, even though I got to talk to him a couple of times, was that he wasn't there to tell him, aim a little left, aim a little right, you know. He was there to just after Miller hit the putt, and they were walking to the next hole, he went, You you pulled. That that's what he was supposedly there for. But Watson played with Miller. I watched him play the first thirty-six holes together, watched every shot they both hit. And basically it was the typical thing of the good putter, bad ball striker, crooked ball striker, not bad ball striker. He always was a good ball hitter. But he would hit his T shot in a rough and then hook a four iron on the green on some four sixty yard hole thirty feet away. Miller hit driver six iron three feet. Watson would make the, you know, thirty-five foot of a birdie and Miller would miss the four foot of a par and it went on like this all day long and Miller just rolling his eyes. And then and now that's nineteen eighty two. Now just to show you golf and just to show you putting and just to show you how smart Big Don was when he said, Hey babes, nobody owns this game. We're at Grand Cypress in Florida. And Tom Bartlett's elbowing me because there's this guy I'm watching, but like I'm trying to figure out what he's trying to do, but he just kept putting this 10-footer that broke about two feet, maybe a foot and a half. And he just couldn't make one out of like 30. It was Watson. Of all people of the world, it was Tom Watson. That's 19, maybe 88 or nine. So he went from he's definitely the best putter in tournament golf. in nineteen eighty two to already lost some of his putting ability in eighty eight. And, you know, I mean, I think he kind of struggled with it the rest of his career. Did you do you ever get to see Watson putt when he was a good putter? speaker-1: I did, but the the the the week that I watched him, ⁓ I was in high school or just out of high school, so that was probably like late seventies, and I think that was the year that Doug Toole won. He he put it all right, but he didn't putt enough good enough to to win the tournament. But did he didn't show any signs of being like leg jittery or like not confident. You know, he looked like he still believed that he was gonna make putts. So yeah, I s I did see him, but I didn't like see a bunch of it. But I witnessed him hitting putts and looked good. But I think like speaker-0: He banged in the three, four footers, man. He banged them. speaker-1: It w it was very, very ⁓ aggressive butter. speaker-0: We already talked about Casper. What do you think about Sevy as a putter? See, that he doesn't make any list in my head of putting, but I saw him play. speaker-1: There well th they're probably giving him that because you know he made some pretty big putts, like seventeen at St Andrews. Yeah, no in in in what did he win? Two Masters? Two? Yeah. Yep. You can't be a bad putter, you know, winning the Masters. So I think just based on that and ⁓ did he win a PGA? I think he may have won a PGA. I think the only one he didn't win was the US Open. But maybe he was just a master speaker-0: Two different kinds of majors. speaker-1: Okay. Well we can look that up later. We've been looking up a lot of stuff. But he he he was he was good. ⁓ I I don't I I wouldn't say that he was bad, but I don't know that he was great. But speaker-0: He putted with the plop for a while, didn't he? speaker-1: He did. And then he also used a tad more. He used a tad more like a TPM two, which is kinda like a T P Mills basically. But that one looked pretty good. Just the putter. I I love I love Tad Moore putters. They look really good. The

handmades are really nice. Just like T P Mills. They're beautiful putters. speaker-0: football. Making hickory clubs. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So so all the big bucks we're gonna be making, some of it's gonna go speaker-0: Stevy Galastaras won five majors, three British Opens. I'm stopping calling it the open. ⁓ the hell with that. British Opens and two Masters. speaker-1: Okay, well five's good and I thought he had speaker-0: Alright, we already talked about Lauren Roberts Stricker. speaker-1: Stricker. Yeah. Good he was just solid, you know, still is, you know, super upright butter. No risk. So both both he and ⁓ Lauren Roberts, if you're looking for no risk guys, there there they are. Zero. Now if you look at speaker-0: We've already talked about Hale Irwin. I have no recollection of Hale Irwin being a a phenomenal putter, but he won three US opens and they they're traditionally the slickest greens of the year on on the PGA tour. It he had to be a better putter than I gave him credit for. You have any recollection of his putting stroke? speaker-1: Vaguely, but like ⁓ but I what I did hear from the Taylor made guys was he actually you know they have Quintech down there and they were one of first people to have it. They said who knows if his stroke was the same when he was tested on that as he was when he won those tournaments, ⁓ the US opens that is. But they said that he had backspin off the hit, you know, a little bit of backspin out of the hit. So so maybe, you know, just maybe. speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: You know, a little backspin with a little bit less ⁓ impact ratio, like how fast the ball would go. Maybe he was hitting little little chippy chippy cut puts of the US sofa. I don't know. But ⁓ can't be bad. I just remember when he meet beat Mike Donald. He did the r round the green kind of high five to everybody. Yeah. So here here's a Mike Donald story for you, real quick. So when he was a rookie, I caddied for him at ⁓ Las Coyotes Country Club. That was the same year that Hal Sutton was a rookie. He showed up. And so so did Tommy Armour the third, right? So Mike Donald's playing with Tommy Armour the third and a guy that I used to work with work for named Tom Schopner. So on the third hole at Las Coyotes, nobody reached that green in two. It was like 560 yards. Back Woodwoods blotted balls. Tommy Armour takes out a Tommy Armour driver, hits it over the corner. He's got maybe 250, 260 yards to the hole. I'm like, ⁓ my God, this guy might get to the green. He hit it on the very front of the green, right? And the pin was on the very back. So he hits his ping-ancer putter, and this thing is just rocket shipping across the green. It hits the back of the hole, jumps up in the air, and goes in. And I jumped up in the air like I had won a big a big tournament, right? I like, Yeah. And they and the and Mike Donald goes, What the hell are you doing? You're rooting for you know you're rooting for ⁓ somebody else, not not me. I'm like, ⁓ well, you know, guy made an eagle, it's great. So And so then later in in that tournament, Mike on a par three, I think it was hole number twelve, it was about 200 yards. And he had either his ball didn't go as far back then. So he was either gonna hit like a three or a four iron. And I said, Why don't you hit a three iron? Just cut it a little bit, take some of the distance off. So he hits it and it lands on the green and runs just a little bit over the back, but it was on the fringe. So he had maybe a 15 footer. So three or four iron, recommend the three. Hit a little bit kind of feather fade. Has a 15 footer. Then he he lips out for f the 15 footer and he looks at me. He goes, Don't ever club me again. Like I I thought that was a pretty good club. Like so so he was just like brutal to me. He was just it was rude. And at the end, I think I was supposed to get I was supposed to get like $120. And you know, he was a journeyman guy. So he goes, How about I give you $90 and all these titles? I'm like, I'm in. You know, they got a bunch of tour tour player titles. They sold, right? So later absolutely. So l later Mark McCumber introduced me to him at the I the turn the w what's now the waste management. And he goes, Hey, hey Mike, come over here. I want to meet you something. It's John Ortega, this, that, and the other. I go, Yeah, Mike, I've met you before. He goes, ⁓ where? I I caddied I caddied for you at Lost Coyotes. He goes, What did I was I like brutal to you? Like, was I rude? I'm like, Yeah. He goes, Then you did. You caddied for me. speaker-0: That's great. And and and just, you know, for the last little little piece of this, you know, list, here's my David Thomas putting story. So when he came out of college, first tour school goes through the first stage, no problem, goes through the second stage, no problem. Now we're at the finals. I'm caddying and teaching, right? Which ⁓ when we first did it, you know, the first few times we did it, like I remember Kelly Gibson who played the tour for 10 years from New Orleans thinking that ought to be illegal. Because I, if he started hitting it funny, I could tell him something. It was, it was, you know, and if I saw something in this putting stroke, I'd fudge the reads. When he found out, boy, he was mad. But anyway, long story short, here's the deal. The first round of the finals of the tour school, he hit it somewhere between 20 feet and 40 feet. 18 feet and 36 feet. Okay. Try to be a little bit less exaggerated. 18 feet and 36 feet, the first six holes. Just down the middle of the fairway, some part of the fairway. Decent iron shot. Great iron player, just just sitting it on the green, not you know. He made all six. So we were playing with a guy who passed away from Canada who was about 40 years old. He had been on and off the PGA tour, played the Canadian tour. And you know, the third one goes in, it's like, whoa, that's three in a row, right? The fourth one goes in, he's looking at me like, what is this? The fifth one goes in, he's thinking this is sorcery or something like that. When this, I swear to you, the look on his face when the sixth one went in was, I'm leaving. I know I'm in the five tourist school, but I can't watch this anymore. Is this guy gonna go? And he shot 30 on the front nine, shot 600 in the front nine, and they shot 40 or 39 on the back nine. And he was he he long story short, he he missed by one being in fourth place after four rounds. That's the kind of putter David Thomas was. David Thomas was the kind of putter that not only made a bunch of short putts and made that pressure putt to win the PGA and all that stuff. If he was on, it it was going in. Or he thought it was supposed to go in. In a way that I don't think too many other people on this list, you know, just as far as street putters go, he he was unbelievable in in his prom. And he's still a good putter and he putts claw now. But it's one of those things where, you know, when you're when you're going through a list like we tried to do today for you folks, and you're talking about great putters, I think the great putters are putters that not just were the best pressure putters from inside of ten feet or whatever. But the guys like Lauren Roberts, you know, and Brad Faxen, and obviously their careers because of their putting, you know, David to some extent, but David was a hell of a ball striker now. Just so you just so you know, you can go look at the stats. Their careers were completely elevated because of their putting. When there's people that like Johnny Miller, that their career was not elevated because they could putt good. So anything to add to the list of great putters here as we ⁓ have the nicest theme song in the world played behind us? speaker-1: Well, y y you might as well keep keep an eye on the guys that are good right now 'cause I think they're worth watching. You know, Sam Burns, Jake Knapp, number two in putting right now. ⁓ there are a bunch of ⁓ So just ⁓ Danny McCarthy. Might as well enjoy ⁓ Jason Day while he's out there. So speaker-0: Wyndham Clark ain't bad baby with that white fin. speaker-1: That's the last one. speaker-0: Best theme song in golf. speaker-1: Seems we can drift to speaker-0: Good job Johnny, see you soon. ⁓ speaker-1: Hey Paddios! Putting is fun. speaker-0: Thing.