The Detective’s Files: True Crime Tales With Jacques Morrell – The Hillsborough Disaster & Public Order Policing의 전체 녹취록

to be fair, the occasional whitewater rafting 35 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:51.280 or whatever it is that takes place there. So the 36 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:58.360 fact that my division included those, I got involved in 37 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:04.319 policing sports events when it was needed, and that was 38 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.240 either in duty time or in own time where it 39 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.919 was over time to be paid. So that was the 40 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.919 initial introduction I supposed to dealing with crowds to dealing 41 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:23.800 with parties and groups of individuals. In terms of protests, 42 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.360 we at least tended to be more in the city center, 43 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:33.639 which wasn't my division, so I wasn't particularly deployed on 44 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:42.120 political or aditated protests. I did undergo some public order training, 45 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:46.560 it was called PSU training, but that was at a 46 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:49.520 lower level. And to be fair, my thoughts were already 47 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.759 turning to a career in the CID criminal investigation as 48 00:03:53.759 --> 00:04:00.800 a detective. And again, these are the days when probationary officers. 49 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:05.719 The probationary period was two years, and in that two years, 50 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.080 obviously it gave you a lot of time to experience 51 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:13.000 all facets of policing, whereas now you can be direct 52 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:21.199 entry detective or direct entry public order officers. 53 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:25.879 So so you specialize earlier nowadays, or you can can 54 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.439 do Yeah, there isn't that longer probationary How long is 55 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.199 the probationary period, you know? Offhand? 56 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.839 I'm not sure, to be quite frank, now. 57 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.519 Maybe it varies from from force to force. 58 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.920 Yeah, in those days, everyone started whether you're going to 59 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.879 be some high flying individual, whether you've got the name 60 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.839 chief Constable written all over your forehead, you started in 61 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:52.199 that two year probationary period. 62 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:54.279 Good plan. That's where it should be, isn't it. 63 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:56.000 Yeah, that's how it was. 64 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:02.079 So what was public order policing like in the nineteen eighties. 65 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.839 Well, I was certainly aware of huge changes that were 66 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:14.399 taking place, brought about by social unrest. I guess we'd 67 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.600 had the Brixton and ToxT riots of was it eighty one, 68 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:22.759 We'd had the minor strike and again I've alluded to 69 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:28.879 me joining the police just after that strike, and I 70 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.959 joke with some people that they'd not recruited for about 71 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:34.319 a year and a half, so they were desperate to 72 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:39.160 fill the ranks. And that's how I got through. You know, 73 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:42.959 they would take anybody in nineteen eighty five, eighty. 74 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:47.000 Six false modesty, and we'd. 75 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.040 Had Greenham Common and the campaign for nuclear disarmament, the 76 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:58.480 poll tax riots, and the policing of disorder was changing 77 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:04.560 to match these events because officers were now being given 78 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.360 probably better training, but also better equipment. Those NATO helmets 79 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.920 that you see now a regular thing, they weren't a 80 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:15.480 thing when I actually joined. 81 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.439 I don't believe you've just got your Bobby's helmet. 82 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.839 You've got yeah, you've got the image of the helmet, 83 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:27.120 traditional helmet with a chin strap just to sort of 84 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.240 try and keep it on your head. And you've got images, 85 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:35.040 haven't you, of police officers holding up those round metal 86 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.839 dustbin lids as a shield. 87 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.319 My mind goes back to the murder of Keith Blakelock 88 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.519 and a police officer who was I think equipped in 89 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.560 the way that you've described, who is murdered during a 90 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:52.199 riot in London, South London. 91 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.639 Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean even high viz. You know, 92 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:58.959 you see now people with high vis clothing, reflective clothing 93 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.199 that that I don't believe that was in it at 94 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.240 this time. So that image of what people will have 95 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:12.800 now of police officers in highve's specialist equipment deployed with 96 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.839 specialist knowledge and responsibility for public order policing, it was. 97 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.120 It was all a little bit mix and match in 98 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.240 my time, is probably the way of putting in. 99 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:29.279 So no more coppers carrying dustbin lids now as shields. 100 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.560 The equipment appears to be well more specialized to my eyes, 101 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.839 more paramilitary. I don't know if you'd agree with that absolutely. 102 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.000 I think you know the whole idea of policing by consent. 103 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.959 You see people who are deployed in

this equipment as 104 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.279 a matter of course to police a football match, and 105 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.480 I personally find that quite intimidating. I don't know if 106 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.240 it's necessary or not, but I suppose it's better to 107 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:58.560 be safe than sorry. What's your view on there. 108 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.000 Yeah, there's a balance to be had, isn't there. I 109 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:10.319 think the actual strategic way that the police look to manage, 110 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:17.920 particularly political protests is still has an eye on policing 111 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:24.240 with consent and doesn't look for confrontation. But to the 112 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.879 outside person they may see a more paramilitary look and 113 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.600 the office is involved. If they're constantly deployed or constantly 114 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:40.039 expected to police demonstrations, I'm sure they do. Some individuals 115 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:46.759 will will be quite robust, shall I say, in their attitude, 116 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:51.559 but generally I'm fairly comfortable with that kind of policing. 117 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.879 And you have training to deal with different levels of situation, 118 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.360 don't you. I think there's a level one basic PSU 119 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.039 training and then a level two and perhaps a level 120 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.000 three which has advanced. What level did you get to 121 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:07.039 in your in your career? 122 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:14.600 Yeah, well, level one, but was never deployed in anger? 123 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:17.519 I mean wrong? Obviously you know you would face quite 124 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:22.200 a lot of anger and threat in day to day policing, 125 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.120 but this is organized policing of events. 126 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:29.519 Okay, And what did the training entail? Then, I've I've 127 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:33.960 had some similar training as a journalist, but obviously not 128 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:38.480 at the intensity that you've had or from the perspective 129 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:39.320 that you had either. 130 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.440 Sure, well, there's level there's three levels. Basic level one 131 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.759 which was the training that I received. Level two clearly 132 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:55.600 more advanced, tactical skills, use of equipment and more more advanced. 133 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.440 And then there's the strategic level, which is senior commanders 134 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:11.799 about the strategy of policing these events. My training. It's 135 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.440 one time I got an email and said, right, you're 136 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.200 doing your PSU Level one training, And they tended to 137 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:24.279 do them at old sort of military sites, ordance depots, 138 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.799 that kind of thing out the way where you'd got 139 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.840 space and hangers and little roadways where you could you 140 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:38.279 could practice. And I remember one it was the summertime, 141 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.279 I don't know what year it would have been, probably 142 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:46.519 probably the summer of eighty seven, and we're thrown into 143 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.600 this scenario where you learn how to form a cord 144 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:56.679 and the use of shields. So this is we're still 145 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.919 in ordinary uniform we're not in. I think we put 146 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:05.759 overalls on at one time when we did the when 147 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:09.679 we had to do the fire training for the molotov 148 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.639 cocktails that you see at these riots, the petrol bombs. 149 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:17.039 And I remember we were told to sit down on 150 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:23.200 this grassy bank in the sunshine while they prepared the 151 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.919 scene for us to face a petrol bomb being thrown 152 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:32.039 at us. And we're all sort of sat resting, and 153 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.759 there was a what I described as an older boy 154 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.639 sat in front of me, because I would have been 155 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:42.279 what early twenties, He's probably in his forties, and he 156 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.240 was in the same training, and he was sat right 157 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.159 in front and there was a milk crate full of 158 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.960 Molotov cocktails petrol bombs ready to be used in this scenario, 159 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.240 and he sat closest to it, and he lights up, 160 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:01.000 he guess his tobacco autum, lights his pipe and starts 161 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.879 choffing away on this pipe. And at the point of 162 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:06.639 me seeing. 163 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:10.639 Him and next to six pints of petrol, right, yeah, okay, 164 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:11.039 But the. 165 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.039 Point of me seeing and deciding whether to shout over 166 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.519 to him or go over to him and say, I 167 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.440 think you need to move away from that one of 168 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.600 the trainers saw this from the other side and well, 169 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.600 you can imagine the kind of the kind of language 170 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.960 that would have echoed round this field in the middle 171 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.799 of nowhere, And I thought, yeah, this is this is 172 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:42.960 a highly trained crack unit being formed here. So yeah, 173 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:44.519 it wasn't my bag, but.

174 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.759 Yeah, I've got a Mulotov cocktail story for you. I 175 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.919 used to have to indulge in what was called hazardous 176 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.679 environments training, just on the off chance that I was 177 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:04.919 sent somewhere that was hazardous. And the favorite location for 178 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:10.840 this was at a hotel in Hereford, which is in 179 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.200 the Brecon Beacons. It's a lovely town and it's associated 180 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.559 with a certain branch of the UK military, of course, 181 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.159 and the consultants who were there were pretty much, as 182 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:29.600 you describe, very forthright people who delighted in teasing us 183 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:33.720 in various ways. But what I will never forget is 184 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.320 the advice they gave us about petrol bombs, which is, 185 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:42.000 if somebody throws a petrol bomb at you run towards 186 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.360 them because the burning petrel splashes forward, so if you 187 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.320 try to run away, you stand a greater chance of 188 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.080 being burnt by the petrel than if you run towards 189 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.159 the person who's thrown the petrol bomb and take some 190 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.759 guts to do that. But yeah, that's that's what I 191 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:03.600 remember about molotov cocktails. 192 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.919 Well that's a little bit point, because you know, we 193 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:11.840 often hear that when things go badly wrong on the streets, 194 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.120 it's the police officer that you'll see running towards the problem, 195 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.240 whereas everybody else will be looking to run away. 196 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.240 And you can't see the danger. Then either you can't 197 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.840 see what's in front of you because whatever's happening, you know, 198 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.360 eyes are in the front of your head. So yes, yes, 199 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:32.840 unless you're my wife, in which case you've got eyes 200 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:37.639 in the back of your head as well. But yeah, 201 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.519 I mean that's a that's a really good and from 202 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:44.720 the point of view of the events of the nineteen eighties, 203 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.559 the poll tax riots and so forth, I was never 204 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.200 involved in a riot itself, but I know people who 205 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.799 were as students, and yeah, I mean it was It 206 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.559 was a difficult decade, wasn't it. It started with the 207 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:02.360 riots in Toxic and Hands than eighty one, and there 208 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.200 was a considerable amount of public disorder throughout the nineteen eighties, 209 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.639 which I think perhaps you know, we forget about the 210 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:11.840 high point, or maybe the low point would be the 211 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.879 minors strike eighty five eighty six, But apart from that, 212 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:19.519 there was a lot of unrest, and also in particular 213 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.799 in Northern Ireland. We tend to think of Northern Ireland 214 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.399 as a separate case really, but it's part of the 215 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.600 United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and policing in 216 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:34.240 Northern Ireland was particularly difficult in. 217 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.720 The Marching season, Yeah for sure. 218 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.840 Yeah, so we laugh about it, but people were chucking 219 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:44.360 molotov cocktails around, not everywhere all the time, but it 220 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.320 was more prevalent in the United Kingdom in the nineteen eighties, 221 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.000 I think fair to say than it is now in 222 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:49.960 twenty twenty six. 223 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.080 Yes, and I'm enjoying the opportunity to talk about this 224 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:58.639 because whilst I don't think anyone listening will now know 225 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.759 that I didn't really expelance that much public order policing 226 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.759 in terms of being part of a serial a PSU. 227 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:11.480 But so I'm almost an observer of it from the inside. 228 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.159 And yes, there were periods when I was dealing with 229 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.840 the intelligence build up to these things, but my view 230 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:22.919 is that generally the police in the UK look to 231 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.840 avoid being confrontational, you know, they don't, and I think 232 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.600 they seek to avoid really dying in a ditch. You know, 233 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.200 they've got a It's not a case of just doing 234 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:37.519 it for the sake of it and being confrontational. It's 235 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.200 a two way street. And as long as the sufficient 236 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:46.600 planning and preparation, you know, these these events can be 237 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:52.279 placed properly. Nineteen eighty six was also the Public Order Act, 238 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.559 and that I don't know what really brought in the 239 00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:00.000 whole act, but it introduced where the police could impose 240 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:04.680 conditions on marches. But this kind of thing was used 241 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:09.680 very sparingly. Okay, Northern Ireland you mentioned is different, but 242 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:12.920

the issues are still the same. 243 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.799 I think that might have been a consequence of the 244 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:23.960 minor strike. It seems to be more correlation than coincidence. Yeah, 245 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:29.839 So that piece of legislation was available to governments but 246 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.839 rarely used. 247 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.160 Absolutely. Of only marches or demonstrations, I don't think many 248 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:41.319 have been banned particularly, I don't know for sure, sort 249 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.920 of more recently because the political climate and the way 250 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.519 things have changed. But in that main period of my career, 251 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:54.480 people could demonstrate, they could March providing as a dialogue 252 00:17:54.519 --> 00:18:05.680 and there's some preparation and disorder since then. It's fairly rare, 253 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.000 you know, serious disorder. 254 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.880 I was in London in the summer of twenty eleven 255 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:16.039 when there was rioting in London and looting, and in 256 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.559 other UK cities as well. I think Manchester was particularly 257 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.119 badly affected by that. So, as you say, it's not 258 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:29.599 something that really in the last fifteen years has been 259 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:32.160 a particular issue, unless, of course, you look at the 260 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:37.960 way that protests in London have been policed. Protests over 261 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.519 the situation in Gaza have been policed over the last 262 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:47.240 couple of years, but the accusation that the police are 263 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:51.799 heavy handed is always going to be there. Do you 264 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.200 think that in those situations the police are acting appropriately 265 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.440 or are they coming down too hard on protesters who 266 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:06.440 have a legal, legitimate right to protest about issues that 267 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:08.000 concern them. 268 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.480 Yeah, that's a good question. I wanted to sort of 269 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.599 keep this to the period of my service, which ended 270 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.440 in twenty fifteen. I'm not stepping away from the question 271 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:25.920 you've asked, but I do feel that in my time 272 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:32.119 in generally the UK police they look to use good planning, 273 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:37.839 good preparation and using a degree of guile when they 274 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:43.039 manage these events, and using good intelligence in terms of 275 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.599 the gathering. And that's something that I did. I spend 276 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:50.000 a period of time where we were involved

in gathering 277 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:58.160 that intelligence for public order issues and it has to 278 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.319 be has to be staffed and funded and looked at properly. 279 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.000 Crowds generally, they're not controlled by heavy handed light control methods. 280 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:13.680 It's just about managing the flow of people so that 281 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.400 they can all have their voice but avoid that confrontation. 282 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:23.359 I suppose that's a reasonable interpretation. What interests me about 283 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.799 the intelligence aspect of all of this is what West 284 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.799 Midlands Police have characterized recently as a failure of intelligence, 285 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:38.240 and that was the reason they stated for banning Israeli 286 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:44.799 supporters from attending a match in Birmingham, which, according to 287 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.079 their now former chief constable who's fallen on his sword 288 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.839 as a result of this, was based on erroneous information 289 00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:00.240 scraped from the Internet by co pilot by micros off 290 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:06.200 co pilot. That's the explanation the police have given. Read 291 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:12.319 into this what you will, but they say over reliance 292 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:17.759 on artificial intelligence meant that they were misled into believing 293 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.519 that there could be trouble at a match involving Israeli 294 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.279 supporters and people in Birmingham. 295 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.839 That is Simon is the perfect example, because I think 296 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:31.440 I said in a few seconds ago, a couple of 297 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:34.400 minutes ago, that it relied on it needed to rely 298 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:41.599 on good intelligence, good good, good preparation. Now that decision 299 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.160 to ban those Maccarby Tel Aviv supporters was not based 300 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.759 on good intelligence, and as you say, it was, it 301 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.480 was even AI, but even AI that's not been then 302 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:59.240 fact checked and confirmed. There's a lot of ways to 303 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.519 look at this, but it was very poorly handled without 304 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:04.880 any shadow of doubt. 305 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:10.279 For people who don't know the AI invented a situation 306 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.519 that had occurred at a fictitious match between I think 307 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:18.440 it was west Ham and Maccabee Tel Aviv, and this 308 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.160 match was pure fiction. It was something that AI had 309 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.440 made up, but it was taken as gospel by the 310 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.519 person who was preparing the report, who just consulted co pilot, 311 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.079 And I think in the circumstances can be forgiven human 312 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:40.160 frailty for thinking, oh, yes, there's a precedent for this, 313 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.119 Better tell the boss, pass it up the chain, and 314 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:49.319 unfortunately was blindsided by an error in the AI. 315 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:54.519 Yeah, I think now it's not the Home Office. It's 316 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:59.759 more handed to the police chiefs. They call it the 317 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:05.920 UK Public Order and Public Safety Organization, and that's interesting 318 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:12.359 because it allows the term allowed that it's public order 319 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.920 and but it's about public safety. Now, if that football 320 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:20.799 match was about public safety i e. The police can't 321 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:26.119 ensure the safety of fans, then fine, although that's almost 322 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.920 like putting up sad saying we can't cope, but to 323 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.920 then use it, use it in a way to say 324 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.119 that they're going to ban the supporters because of their 325 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:44.319 behavior that was erroneous. That's when we've gone into dangerous territory. 326 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.000 And of course when it comes to the management of 327 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:54.559 public safety and supporters' behavior. A classic example in this 328 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:58.319 country is the Hillsbury disaster in nineteen eighty nine, which 329 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.559 we will come on too late, but I want to 330 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:04.279 go back to those early days when you had one 331 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.200 eye on the CID but you had to get through 332 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.359 your probation and you were learning all aspects of policing. 333 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:13.359 What sports matches did you work at? 334 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:21.799 I worked at several, at many to be fair, notingum Forest, 335 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:27.640 nots County, both stadia. If anyone doesn't know a literally 336 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.119 a stone's throw with is the river in between them. 337 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:38.640 Horse racing at not Eum Racecourse just down the road 338 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.960 we policed that and that tended to be overtime policing 339 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.880 and test matches at the cricket you see, obviously with 340 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.920 these events you've got a responsibility to maintain order on 341 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:56.559 the streets and police it sufficiently. But equally there's sun 342 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.559 policing inside the stadia and that would be funder why 343 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:05.519 the sports organization who's holding it, so it'd be a 344

00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.880 different aspect to the overall management of it. 345 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.839 I'm interested that you mention Trent Bridge because I know 346 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:20.519 you wouldn't characterize yourself as a cricket fan, but you 347 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:26.200 were there in nineteen eighty eight. Two words, Viv Richards. 348 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.279 So what was that like? I mean that Test tour? 349 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.200 What was that like? The West Indies Tour in nineteen 350 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:35.240 eighty eight? That must have been a fantastic thing to 351 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:36.279 be at Trent Bridge for. 352 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.440 Oh yes, it was without any shadow of a doubt. Now, 353 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.960 I joined the c IDEA in nineteen I think it 354 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.960 was April eighteen nine, so yeah, eighty eight would. 355 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:48.359 Have been. 356 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.759 The summer of eighty eight, I would have got a 357 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.279 phone call from the duty's officer saying on time duty 358 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:01.000 at trent Bridge for the Test smash against the West 359 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:05.960 Indies with overtime in the sunshine. I thought, yes, I'll 360 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.160 have a bit of that. And it was a very 361 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.920 It was the first Test, as I remember, the weather 362 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:19.000 was very good. It was very hot and sunny and well, 363 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.519 the Winterers were the team to beat, weren't they. 364 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:20.960 They were. 365 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.359 I think they were an aging side at the time, 366 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.079 but they were still the team to beat. V Richards, 367 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:34.119 the captain, prolific run scorer, Malcolm Marshall, was it, Gordon Green? 368 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:35.759 Is that? You know those names? And I'm not the 369 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.400 cricket cricket fishing ardo. 370 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:41.240 But they were the team to beat. Unfortunately we failed 371 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:44.880 four times to beat them, and I think we went 372 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:49.039 through as many captains in that year, didn't we England? 373 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.960 I think I think I think they did. Yeah, Mike 374 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:59.279 Gatting who was playing Chris. Was Chris brought over the captain? 375 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:01.759 I don't think he was, but he was. He was playing. 376 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.759 This is a long time again exactly, Yes, Chris was there. 377 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:13.160 You're absolutely right, Graham Gooch, Mike gatting. I think they 378 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:21.119 went through four managers captain, sorry, four captains, and also 379 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.880 lost that series four nil, although the

trent Bridge one 380 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.559 was was drawn as. 381 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.720 I, oh, that's right, yes, so you actually saw a 382 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.279 reasonable performance from the England side. 383 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.000 Interesting I remember, and I don't don't particularly regard cricket 384 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.039 as a spectator sport. I find it a little bit difficult. 385 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:46.799 So it was such a warm day that I remember 386 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:49.039 one time I went under the stand in the shade 387 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.920 and I was stood with some midlaced Jamaican guys at 388 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:56.960 the back keeping keeping out of the sun and the 389 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.480 heat and keeping eyeing things. And he was shouting regularly, 390 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:07.279 you know, to was it Curtly, Curtly, Yeah, bowl him 391 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:09.039 a bounds, So bowl him a bounds, and this that 392 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.200 and the other. And I was I was enjoying myself, 393 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.720 you know, I was getting getting paid good money. I 394 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.000 was seeing what happens at a Test cricket match. 395 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:18.359 Although there was one. 396 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.559 This is an interesting I do remember this vividly. There 397 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:28.599 was a mobile bar serving cold lagers for these supporters 398 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:36.160 to to refresh themselves during the thing, and someone behind 399 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:39.440 the bar sort of caught my eye and indicated whether 400 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:43.920 I would like a drink, and I thought, well, yes, 401 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:47.319 I think I probably would. It's so hot and sweats 402 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:51.359 running down underneath my my helmet. So they invited me 403 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.440 into the refrigerated part of this mobile bar and served 404 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.640 me a drink, obviously against against the rules. Understand, it 405 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:02.119 wasn't clever thing to do. 406 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.640 But he drinking on duty. That's strengths boat, isn't it. 407 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:12.720 Well, absolutely absolutely and not you know, Hence they shut 408 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:16.000 the door to this refrigerated thing while I had some refreshment. 409 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:17.599 Well fortunately they were. 410 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.160 They shut you in the cooler temperature. 411 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.559 In this cool that was so cold. By the time 412 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.559 I take about three SIPs, I was now almost shivering. 413 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.720 And yeah, it wasn't big and it wasn't clever, but 414 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.319 it was the wrong thing to do because stood there 415 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:41.359 feeling cold in a dark, refrigerate, noisy, refrigerated lorry, having 416 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:43.720 a drink of lager that I shouldn't have been doing. 417 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.279 And then you had to stand in the sunshine again 418 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:50.519 and feel sleepy. I guess, I don't know, I feel sleepy. 419 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.920 Yeah, and deal with yeah, deal with whatever I was 420 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.079 asked to deal with, which which wasn't too traumatic, I 421 00:29:58.160 --> 00:29:59.160 have to say. 422 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.200 And for Americans who I think we don't drink cold 423 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.720 beer in this country. Yes, we do. And if you've 424 00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.640 lost the conversation so far, we've been talking about cricket, 425 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:12.119 which is what I call baseball for grown ups. Okay, 426 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:18.920 so now we've lost half of the audience. I think 427 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:26.000 we should move on to football. Clearly, bigger crowds, perhaps 428 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:31.480 more disorderly. I'm not sure. Cricket fans can be pretty crazy, 429 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:35.799 can't they. We're all human, after all, but a football 430 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:39.720 crowd is a different kettle of fish from a crowd 431 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.519 of cricket supporters, would you agree? 432 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:46.839 Absolutely? I mean, without going into the social dynamics of 433 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.759 the sport or whatever. You know, football is a hugely 434 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:57.240 passionate sport, played by millions and supported by millions. So 435 00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.519 I am a football fan. I know. You know, people 436 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.519 will will talk about the behavior of supporters, particularly in 437 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:09.960 those days. But the consequence of it was there was 438 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:18.000 that policing football was more staff intensive than any of 439 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:21.960 the other sports combined. It doesn't matter why, but that's 440 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:25.960 the fact. So you'd end up pleasing a lot of 441 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.880 a lot of games, as I say, on the division 442 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:35.799 where the sports stadia were meant that we would get 443 00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:39.519 them regularly as part of your duty, and that duty 444 00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:44.160 would would be an all day commitment. You would a 445 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.920 team of you would get together. You would take the 446 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.240 minibus or the transit vehicle, not the it's not a 447 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.079 prison vehicle. It's not designed for taking prisoners, but it's 448 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.759 a personnel carrier. You take it to the to the 449 00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.400 main divisional station. You would have a briefing, you would

450 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.960 get a meal in the canteen. Now they no longer 451 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.000 exist anymore now either, but you would get a meal 452 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:12.359 in the canteen. You would get your briefing, you would 453 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:18.960 get your duties for the responsibilities for the event, and 454 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:23.200 there you would go out probably two hours before the 455 00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:27.519 match and you would place the streets for that period. 456 00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:32.759 The other aspect is where you're given own time duty 457 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:40.839 in the football stadia where you would be detaining people 458 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.279 and taking for the cells. And even the stadia had 459 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:50.559 cells as well, specifically designed where you could secure people 460 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.519 and deal with them. And that was again, that was 461 00:32:57.079 --> 00:33:00.839 interesting to see. I'm glad I had the opportunity to 462 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:05.160 to do those matches and to understand I mean, I 463 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.000 remember one of the first ones I was at. I 464 00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:11.279 was deployed somewhere to the cinder track in front of 465 00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:17.519 the supporters, and when I went in for my break 466 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:19.440 or a cup of tea or whatever we were doing, 467 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.079 you know, I'd realize that the back of my coat 468 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:30.640 was covered in spit, you know, which sort of I 469 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:35.000 knew it happened, but you you do take it slightly 470 00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:38.119 personally to the point that you know they're only they're 471 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.000 spitting on you because you're a police officer in uniform 472 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:45.200 and they can they can get away with it. They 473 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:48.119 sort of know they can get away with it. But 474 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:50.799 you know the first time it happens, you have to 475 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:54.359 sort of sit back and think, hmm, you're not happy 476 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:58.200 about that, mainly because they've got away without I suppose 477 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:00.559 if you found them doing it, you could of you 478 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:01.319 could have dealt with it. 479 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:04.160 What kind of support do you get or did you 480 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.799 get for that, you know, from from the organization, from 481 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.719 the police force. Was was there any follow up? Was 482 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:13.519 there any kind of Oh no, not at all, one 483 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:13.880 at all. 484 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:16.159 You've just you've just got to go and wipe your 485 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.559 coat down and get on with it. 486 00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:29.199 Yeah, And we mentioned Hillsborough earlier on. You were at 487 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.960 the f A Cup semi final at Hillsboro between Nottingham 488 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.159 Forest and Liverpool. Weren't you as a as a not 489 00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.039 as a police officer, but as a as a spectator 490 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:39.639 as a forest. 491 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.480 There were there were four of us, all or police officers. 492 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.239 We traveled together in the car, got tickets and we've 493 00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:51.599 been to the one the year before. It was almost 494 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:53.760 and I'm glad you want to come on to it, 495 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.880 but it was a It was the same location, the 496 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.360 same teams as as as the year before. It was 497 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:05.199 a copy and paste operational lord almost you know, changed 498 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:09.639 the date, but the changed the date and the staff involved, 499 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:15.519 but the actual operation was disappointingly exactly the same. 500 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.199 I guess, yeah, yeah. And for those who don't know, 501 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:26.760 there was a crush at the Leppings Lane end of 502 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.039 the stadium, which is where the Liverpool supporters were being directed. 503 00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:40.519 They were being sent by the police and ultimately that 504 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:46.800 incident claimed ninety seven lives. The last person, the last 505 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:52.239 casualty of the Hillsborough disaster, died in twenty twenty one. 506 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:56.320 I think his name was Andrew Devine and I remember 507 00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:01.280 covering the case of Tony Bland, who was from West Yorkshire. 508 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:04.800 He was the ninety sixth person to die, and he 509 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:08.920 was in a persistent vegetative state for a number of 510 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.960 years after Hillsborough. So a terrible loss of life and 511 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:19.360 a terrible tragedy which you saw, I suppose, unfolding in 512 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.920 front of your eyes from the opposite end of the 513 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.639 football ground, from the opposite end of Hillsboro. Is that right? 514 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.760 Yes? I did. We got in to the ground, to 515 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:38.840 the stand behind the goal twenty minutes probably maybe longer 516 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:47.199 twenty five minutes before kickoff, and it was immediately apparent 517 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:51.239 to me that looking at the other end behind the goal, 518 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:57.360 that the area behind the goal was packed as you 519 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:05.239 would expect, but towards the corners it was complete contrast. 520 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:10.400 It was

almost sparsely populated by supporters, and it looked 521 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:14.400 just looked odd. Whether that's your first game you've been to, 522 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:22.280 it just looked disproportionately odd. Something was wrong at that point. 523 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.280 We all know now, well say we all know. We've 524 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:33.400 you know, we've been through the first inquest, a second inquest, 525 00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:37.599 and we don't I don't think we need to go 526 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.320 into the ins and outs of the blame game and 527 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:47.880 the investigation and the campaign for justice and looking at 528 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:53.559 the whole way that this game was policed and managed. 529 00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.079 But that to me was odd. 530 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:04.639 You understood from your experience at the city Ground in 531 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:10.559 Nottingham how that operation should have been working at the 532 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.920 other end. So you're watching what's going on and what 533 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:18.639 were you thinking? What was your thought process? 534 00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.719 My thought process was that. And bear in mind as well, 535 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.440 if people need to remember or to realize, that terracing 536 00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:32.920 then was divided into pens. There was fencing down in 537 00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:37.199 sections of the terracing, and there were also fences at 538 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:37.639 the front. 539 00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:40.960 I should say as well that at this stage there 540 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.199 were very few football stadiums in this country that had 541 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.239 any sort of seating. It was just big concrete steps 542 00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:49.960 and those were the terraces, and people stood on the terraces. 543 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:54.079 Now stadiums are all seater because of this, but at 544 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.760 that stage you were effectively standing in tiers on big 545 00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:01.719 concrete steps. Everybody was right, okay, so those are the terrorices. 546 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.119 Yeah yeah, And I know that in order to get supporters, 547 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.760 and supporters had a ticket and they could go anywhere 548 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:15.039 within that stand. But the management of the flow, the 549 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.840 traffic flow would needed to get supporters into the areas 550 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:22.920 where it was less populated and I try and think 551 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:27.400 of this equate it as if there's a load of 552 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.920 you getting on a bus and you don't know each other, 553 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:36.159 you don't naturally sit together in clusters. You will spread out, 554 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.960 almost like an osmosis.

You go and find a quiet 555 00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:43.079 seat to yourself, and then the buser. It gets Eventually 556 00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:46.719 it all sort of filters and the crowd is full. 557 00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:52.840 Those fences don't allow that natural movement of people to 558 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.159 find a space that they're comfortable with, So that is 559 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.000 certainly a key thing. But it's said to me immediately 560 00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:05.719 that there's some problem in managing the crowd getting it. 561 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:07.960 And I'd never been into Leapping's lane, and I other's 562 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:13.719 talk about or have since actually about the design of 563 00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:18.559 the stadia, the way the turnstiles and the exits and 564 00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:20.239 all that got looked at, didn't it. 565 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:24.760 But the bottom line was that people were being funneled 566 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:28.880 into the central area behind the goal and they couldn't 567 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:32.079 for whatever reason, they couldn't. They were physically prevented from 568 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:37.079 spreading out laterally, from going sideways to left and right 569 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.400 of the goal. Yes, and that's why there was the 570 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.360 terrible crash. Now, I remember the god awful pictures that 571 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.119 were in the newspaper and the Sunday newspapers as well, 572 00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:50.960 which got a lot of criticism as well because there 573 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.440 were people there who were dead and dying pushed against 574 00:40:54.440 --> 00:41:00.719 this chain link fence essentially just being squashed absolutely idious. 575 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:07.840 Yes, yes, and and and clearly many died away from 576 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:10.000 the cameras because they're in the tunnel and in the 577 00:41:10.039 --> 00:41:14.719 crush to this this packed area. So after after this 578 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:18.920 this event, and I wasn't required to to to to 579 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:24.960 get involved at all, the we left, we left eventually. 580 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:30.320 I think I remember speaking to her an officer who was, 581 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:33.519 you know, looking at ash and faced as as as 582 00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.920 every everyone was saying, you know, do you need any help? 583 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:40.840 And the instruction to us was no. 584 00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:45.000 You know, so you identified yourself as a police officer 585 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:47.480 and your friends and then and they said. 586 00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:52.119 Yeah, and so yeah, everyone sort of went away. 587 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:52.960 But after. 588 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.960 Sometimes weeks after, maybe there was a communication through to 589 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:04.880 the Nottionshire Police asking for any police officers who were 590 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:08.840 at the game as a supporter, whether that's supporting Nottingham 591 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.599 Forest or Liverpool, it doesn't really matter. To fill in 592 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.679 a questionnaire. And I have a copy of it somewhere 593 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.280 because at the second in question I think was twenty fourteen. 594 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:25.840 We were contacted to say that our report was part 595 00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:30.079 of that process, which is understandable. They're looking at absolutely 596 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:35.639 every document involved. Although I wasn't interviewed, what I could say, 597 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.639 and I've explained it on here, really was just about 598 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:43.360 all I could say. Although I do remember the questionnaire, 599 00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:47.320 several of the questions I couldn't answer. I had no 600 00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:52.199 view on it. Did I see ticketless supporters? Did I 601 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.199 see drunken drunken behavior? 602 00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:01.400 Wasn't there a reference in there too specific Liverpool supporters 603 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.239 as well? Yes, yeah, yes, yes, So there's a bias 604 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:09.559 creeping in right at the start, at the evidence gathering 605 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.960 stage of the inquest. Interesting, yeah, and how would you 606 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.920 know from one end of a football pitch to another? 607 00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:19.360 How would you know if somebody was drunk? How would 608 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.960 you know if they had a ticket or they didn't 609 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:21.599 have a ticket. 610 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:26.360 Yes, I don't read. I know it sounds like they've 611 00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:31.679 made their mind up about what where they're going with inquiry, 612 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.360 and it to some it could look like that. I 613 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.840 don't think. I think it's more naive really, the way 614 00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:42.559 they've film that that document should have been purposely made 615 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.840 for not your forest supporters or whatever. It was very 616 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.559 generic and as a consequence I could have probably only 617 00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:54.719 really answer half of it with any real knowledge. 618 00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:01.400 David Duckhanfield, who was the match wi coordinator for the 619 00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:08.360 police on the day, was very, very heavily criticized, although 620 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:13.880 he was cleared of manslaughter, but extremely heavily criticized, and 621 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.480 his entire career has been overshadowed by this. His entire 622 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:22.159 life has been overshadowed by this. You

have some I 623 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:26.679 wouldn't say sympathy, but you can empathize with duck and Field, 624 00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:28.599 can't you? How So. 625 00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:38.199 I do have some sympathy for him. I believe that 626 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:42.880 was his first category, a big football match that he 627 00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:51.199 was the commander on, and he would whatever his rank, 628 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.679 and I know the book stops with him in his rank. 629 00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:03.800 He would have been briefed and a advised by experienced 630 00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:07.559 officers in the control room at that football stadium who 631 00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:11.840 would know the stadia, they would know every entrance, they'd 632 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:17.159 know how it works. They would be policing Sheffield Wednesday 633 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:24.039 matches every fortnight. A huge amount of experience would have 634 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:32.159 influenced his ultimate decision and the decisions he took, and 635 00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:36.000 they were twofold. And people also need to remember that 636 00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:42.239 this match was televised live, which was a rarity. It 637 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:47.239 was very rare that you got a live broadcast football match. 638 00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:53.320 It was only for selected games. There were two decisions 639 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:58.320 to be made. One delay the match, delay the kickoff 640 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:04.719 to allow the safety of the supporters to get into 641 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:10.800 the stadium. Two was to allow them into the stadium 642 00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:17.440 quicker by opening the execates. If that decision was taken, 643 00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.760 and it clearly was, the crowd had to be sent 644 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:26.679 left or right. They couldn't. They should never have gone 645 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:30.280 through that tunnel to the central section which was packed, 646 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:32.679 which I could see from the other end. 647 00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:36.559 So that was the key. 648 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:41.119 That was the decision that wasn't properly thought through or 649 00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:45.119 wasn't properly dealt with. Now, if there was not sufficient 650 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:50.599 time to manage this sudden flow of large numbers of 651 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.480 supporters through, it should have been delayed. Kickoff should have 652 00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:02.679 been delayed, no doubt about that. But we've got these 653 00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:11.000 are different times, and the decision to tell your guys 654 00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:13.679 at the BBC and everyone else that we're delaying the 655 00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:15.159 match because of this would have. 656 00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:21.559 Been a career limiting decision. Potentially it would have. 657 00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:23.639 Yeah, there were a risk involved, but at the end 658 00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:26.880 of the day, public order, public safety, and. 659 00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:29.559 The lesson that we've learned is that if it means 660 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:33.800 delaying a live televised football match by fifteen minutes to 661 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:38.199 save the lives of ninety seven people, then you delay 662 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:44.199 the bloody football match. You know. That's the simplest way 663 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.920 of putting, isn't it It is? And you delay, you 664 00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:49.440 delay the football match. You delay the football match. 665 00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:53.000 It is and the inquest has gone has looked at 666 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:57.599 so many facets of policing and the tailor report and 667 00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:01.000 everything else. You know, we're not I'm not here to 668 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:07.719 be an authority on that, but I just. 669 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:11.760 I just you were there on the day. You've had 670 00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:17.960 police training, so your observations are perhaps more insightful than 671 00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:20.320 those of somebody who hasn't had well, they will be, 672 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:24.119 won't they. Your your observations will be more insightful than 673 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:27.360 those of somebody who hasn't had that experience in that training. 674 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:31.159 So yeah, I'm just trying to to to focus on 675 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.159 those those the key decisions and the two options that 676 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:40.239 were available, and unfortunately the wrong option was was chosen. 677 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.039 Jack. Thanks for sharing that It must be a tough 678 00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:47.880 thing to think about, you know, to think back to 679 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:50.480 that and relive bits of it, I suppose. 680 00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:56.599 Because yeah, it is I know this much sound irrelevant, 681 00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:04.400 but obviously we made our way from Hillsborough and drove back, 682 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.440 and it was probably I think we were several miles 683 00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:12.239 into the journey where we stopped to make calls home 684 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:24.480 because people watching this live on TV, not knowing really 685 00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:27.719 what either what was happening or not understanding where people were, 686 00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:32.119 didn't know whether the safety of the forty thousand people 687 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:38.679 in there, whether they were safe. So that nervousness that 688 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:43.639 would have traveled to all around the country was clearly there. 689 00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.840 So we put the call in and said, look, we're okay, 690 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:48.679 we're on our way back. 691 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:51.960 Very few people can afford mobile phones at this point, 692 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:56.400 so you motorway services found a payphone and rang home 693 00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.480 from there, I guess correctly, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the 694 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.440 next morning, the Sunday morning, when you know you woke up, 695 00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:04.320 how do you feel then? 696 00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:15.280 Disappointed, a shame that that things could have gone could 697 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:20.320 have gone so wrong, and just a realization that it's 698 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:23.960 it's going to be the topic that's going to be 699 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.440 talked about for years. 700 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.880 As indeed it has and should live forever in the 701 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:35.239 public memory. Jack fantastic, Thanks so much for sharing those 702 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:40.119 thoughts and memories and your considerable policing experience. Will be 703 00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:45.960 back soon for more detectives files, true crime tales with 704 00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:50.079 the Geezer. I call the Governor, Jack Morrel. Thanks, see 705 00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:50.519 you soon.