Beyond School: Raising Leaders, Not Followers의 전체 녹취록

excellence. Adam Gibson: Mm, 'cause that's I mean, that's what I see. I don't I I don't meet many I guess I you know, meet teachers and they've always got beautiful intentions. But what happens? Like what is it that distorts that or what is what's getting in the road of that being fully expressed? 'Cause as you say, it's it doesn't seem to me that the classroom is the outcomes aren't necessary necessarily reflecting that universally. It might it might for a few kids or it might in parts or it in moments but the kind of general outcome of a classroom environment doesn't seem as positive as what that initial intention would, you know, what you'd hope it would express itself as. But what happens in the in the process between that good intention of a teacher, want to go out and do good things, pour into the kids as you say, and where does it come unstuck? Jonathan Zalunardo: So along the way, you just become so jaded with the cycle that you get stuck in. The year begins, it's fresh, Adam Gibson: Okay. Jonathan Zalunardo: you're coming off the summer, everyone. You come back excited, you're well rested, and then you just get stuck in this cycle of reporting, moving on to the next thing based off what the curriculum is telling you to do. But you're not actually stopping and recognizing the talents that exist within the children that are right there in front of you. You're working off this generic document that we call the curriculum, which for all intents and purposes has good information in it. Like there are things that I think a lot of people would agree are valuable for a child to learn. You've got your basics of reading, writing, arithmetic, your sciences, languages, arts, like they're all things that we want to excel at, but the pace at which we do it. the timing that it all happens in, the environment that we're doing in, the comparison that children are held to, because at the end of the day, that's what grading is. You've got a child in the class that's an A that knows that they're an A compared to a child in the room that's a B, C or a D. So you've got this constant comparison, this constant competition for, and I know the competition, it's a good thing. You want your children to excel. You want them to be pushing pushing to become something more but when it's done in a way that they're not even necessarily asking for because that's the that's the real crux of it is children aren't asking for this and they're telling us that they don't want to be a part of it. So we're constantly fighting them to participate and you've got your high flyers, you've got your high achievers which make things feel a little bit more palatable but then you've got your ones that are really pushing back against you, the ones that don't want to be there and tell us as such but every day we're just in the room trying to get them to comply, trying to get them to participate as opposed to doing what we're innately designed to do, which is learn. And in a healthy human, we have this undesirable quenched thirst that can never be quenched to learn. But we have this way of destroying that desire in children. And we all see it. everyone knows it, everyone went to school once upon a time and not many people have a overly satisfying story to say about it, but we continue to push children down this path and that's what's burning teachers, I believe, is that we're forcing children to do something that they don't want to do. Adam Gibson: Yeah. And the paradigm that you've expressed to me off air, which I think was really resonant for me, is you know, you want to create leaders and create happy individuals who are, you know, having a great time in life and expressing their best talents and leading and and creating and contributing to the world. And, you know, I've seen in my kids as they have gone back into the mainstream system, how that the system kind of extinguishes that because they want They they want you to be compliant, get the remark get the grades, get the outcome that the system requires. And it the two things don't necessarily add up, right? There's not you know, like being the best version of yourself and getting the marks at school aren't aren't necessarily the same thing at all. Jonathan Zalunardo: I would agree. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: In no other aspect of life are we graded in such a manner in comparison to other people. mean, I'm a business owner now and the market decides whether I'm being successful or not, but these are choices that I'm making. I want to go out there every day and I want to pursue this path. A child in a classroom that's learning about histories that they... cannot comprehend and cannot fathom and they're having their intelligence based off of that, it's fundamentally incorrect. I think back to my childhood and there were my mates that I was... growing up with that I was in the classroom with that I lived next door to, they were being told that they were lacking in intelligence despite the fact that in every other aspect of life, I perceived them as fantastic. They were good athletes, they were creative, they could build stuff, they could do all these different things that I couldn't do. But based off the report card that we were getting at the end of every semester, I was the smart one. Because as a child, I was getting good grades until I wasn't. But. And then fast forward into life, they seemed more prepared because they were rebelling against that or they weren't defining themselves by that. And this slight pivot in the conversation is that even for the kids that are excelling at school, they're excelling at what someone else is asking of them. There's not this line of I am leading myself. I know what I want to learn every day. I know what I want to do every day. Just that fundamental question alone. Can I plan and... set a direction for my own life. That's Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: a pretty valuable skill. So when we talk about leadership, it doesn't

mean I need to stand in front of 500 men and lead them into battle, but can I wake up every day and know what the direction of my life is gonna be? Can I decide where I'm gonna go today and what I'm gonna learn? And these are fundamental skills that are missing from a child's education. Adam Gibson: They're missing they're missing from mainstream society as well, I think too, which is you know, as a result. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan Zalunardo: And where does it begin? Yeah. Adam Gibson: Yeah, interesting. Okay. So again, I this is why I I resonated with what you're doing. Just talk us through the so you know, we don't want to beat up on the system entirely, 'cause that's we could do that for hours. Jonathan Zalunardo: Not at all. Adam Gibson: Most of us have a innate sense that, you know, on some level it's not serving our kids. Not not to their highest Good, let's say, right? is it is it working vaguely? Yeah. Is it ideal? Is it optimal? Maybe not. So you set out to look for an alternative that is optimal, that does give the kids everything you know that you know, they gives them the the space for them to grow into everything they can be. What did you start looking if so when you're in the system and you're looking outside of it, looking for alternatives, what did you find? Jonathan Zalunardo: So while I was in the system, I just started asking these very basic questions that I mentioned to you earlier with my colleagues that I was spending time in the staff room with. would have our issues. We felt uncomfortable with what we were doing. We frustrated. And just on what you said there that we don't wanna bash the system, like everything that I'm saying here, it's in full recognition that there are good people that are in schools trying to do good things. so everything that I'm saying here is in total... solidarity with them. I'm not fighting against teachers. In fact, everything that I've set out to do is in support of them to show us that we can do everything that we believe. So in regards to the actual question, what did I find or where did I start looking? Very early, I bought a book called Free to Learn by Peter Gray. And this was about eight years ago, just pre-COVID. it all aligned perfectly that I picked up that book at that time. And it started to answer some of the very fundamental questions about the way that we educate ourselves. So that's been a very formative text in everything that I've gone and learnt. And there are other books out there like John Taylor Gatto's writing. He talks about what the schooling system is actually doing. And whilst they are very valuable learnings, it talks more about what's wrong with the school, what's wrong with the way that we're educating. I was always trying to find what is it that we can do differently? What can we actually do better? And I found this book, Peter Gray, and it just led me down this path. And I was looking, looking, looking, looking for answers, just anyone that could tell me something. And I discovered a fine gentleman named Matt Bedro, who's the founder, one of the co-founders of Apogee, the Apogee Strong Network in the United States. And I immediately resonated with his message. At the time, he was part of a different organization. And I immediately got in. I started following him, listening to all the material that he was putting out, got in contact with him just to learn a little bit about what he was doing. And I very naively thought it was going to be, I would just start a school. Like I would just do something different. In Australia, it's not that simple. So that's why our business isn't, we don't call ourselves a school. We don't proclaim to be solving the challenge of the schooling system because that's not what we are. But he started to give me information on what it looked like to educate. in parallel to the mainstream schooling system, the conveyor belt system, as he would call it. So fast forward a few years, Apogee got founded and there was a Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: opportunity to become an affiliate of the Apogee network. And I was getting more and more fed up with my day-to-day role as a classroom teacher. my wife and I, put in an application to become Apogee affiliates. Not thinking that we would get accepted, we got accepted, which forced us to make a decision. Are we going to put our money where our mouth is here, so to speak, and actually give this a crack and try and answer some of these questions, or are we just going to continue to complain and be frustrated with what we're doing? So we became affiliates of the Apogee Network and it wasn't all smooth sailing in the beginning because we go down this path of how can we how can we start this business? We thought we were gonna start a school and that's what the Apogee Network in the States, that's what a lot of the owners, depending on the state that they're in, are able to do. Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: They're able to just start a micro school or a charter school, the different laws over there allow for different things. Here in Australia, to become a school, you very quickly go down the path of doing everything that we didn't wanna do and that was follow a rigid curriculum. Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: grade, report, do all those kind of things. And then that led us down the path of home education and being part of this community. And that's what we do now is we pour into families in the home education sector and Adam Gibson: Yep. Jonathan Zalunardo: that's where we've ended up. Adam Gibson: this is where I think I found as a parent we're looking for options for our kids at particularly around COVID, pull them out of school and I was like, Well, I I didn't want to be in the school for lots of reasons. That we already discussed, and also wanted to be in a homeschool environment that really felt aspirational and was going to give my kids the best opportunities and turn them into leaders and so on. And I

couldn't find it. I found the homeschool system a little bit loose and a bit kind of, you know, vague, and the kids didn't I didn't see sort of exceptional human beings sort of they weren't being intentional, didn't say they didn't come out of it, but they weren't intentionally coming out of it. It was more of a a soft landing. Pad for kids that weren't as, you know, keen on the mainstream. And that's Jonathan Zalunardo: Yep. Adam Gibson: maybe a bit of a harsh assessment, but it didn't resonate with me fully until I talked to you about apogee and it really started to me it made sense. And apogee is about something aspirational, in my understanding. But talk us through what it is as opposed to what the perception of homeschool is. Jonathan Zalunardo: So start with the definition of terms, apogee, it means the highest point, the highest point of something. So this isn't a brand I created, I've bought into it, but this word, what it means to reach the highest point of your development, to reach your full potential, I don't think there's anyone on this earth that doesn't wanna try and become everything that they can become. Like what else are we here for? So that's piece one. And then your question about... what homeschooling actually is. So I've been in this space now for about 18 months and just that term alone and the implication of what homeschooling actually means, there's this huge misconception that what we're meant to be doing is recreating school at home and that's not the case at all. So then it begs the question, well, what are we doing? What do we define it as? So that's something that my wife and I, we've been... Bracken our minds about what is it that we want to become as a family? What are we aiming to achieve? What do we want for our children? What do we want for ourselves? Because these are questions that we were never really asked going through our own education. These aren't things that we were very intentionally thinking about in the early years of our lives. And now we get into this junction where we're thinking about it a little bit more. We realize that these are questions that you never stop asking. So what does that mean for our children? It means that we want to have these discussions with them. Who are you becoming? And we begin with that fundamental question of not what is it that we need to teach these children, but who are they? Who are these children that are standing in front of us? What are their talents? What are they showing us that they're excellent at? And how can we assist them in pursuing that clear talent that we know is innately in every single one of us? So there are some pretty basic verticals to becoming an outstanding human that you would find. in the schooling system and that's learn to read and write. That's a pretty good starting point. You've got access to every piece of knowledge in the world if you can read and write. Arithmetic is pretty important. So if you can stand up those verticals in the beginning, that's a good starting point. But then what is it that they're actually talented at? little Johnny, he might be, he might have this knack for engineering. There might be another child that has this knack for artistry. How can we build a life around them that allows that talent to shine? Because from that key interest, key curiosity, every single piece of what we would call curriculum can come from that. You're interested in art? Cool, you ever heard of this guy Van Gogh and what he did? He was a pretty cool dude that was around however many years ago and he was from this country. You want to start talking about the country that he was from and very quickly you could start to piece together just this unique experience that they get that they actually want to pour into. And that gives you little bit of an idea of the road that you can go down, but it all starts from this fundamental starting point of who is the child that is standing right there in front of me? How can I be present with them and build a pathway for them that they actually want to be a part of? Adam Gibson: Mate, that's interesting. Yeah. So the it's following the kids' natural instinct to learn as opposed to giving them rigid guidelines. Is that fair ex fair assessment? A fair way to put it? Jonathan Zalunardo: Absolutely. I would Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: say that, and I refer back to this book, Free to Learn, there's countless Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: examples of how our innate human instincts are to educate ourselves. It references hunter-gatherers and the way that they would. they would educate their children and it wasn't sitting down at a desk, I'd have you believe. It was actually very different. Their powers of observation, the way they would see elders in the Tribe Act, the way that they would then mimic that behaviour and then be seen as the innovators that would get absorbed into the adult. world of the tribe because over this period of educating themselves, observing what they found interesting, they would then master a craft because Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: they had the freedom to go and pursue the things that they were innately talented at. I have no interest in learning about... aerospace or how rockets work, it's just not the way my mind is wired. If you got me to try and sit down and pursue that path, I wouldn't be able, I just, couldn't do it. It's not what I'm wired to do. So to expect that a whole classroom of kids can all be on the same path at any given moment, it's just fundamentally flawed because every single one of... the children in that room, they have different talents. They have different skills that if we actually allow ourselves to pour into them and let them come to the fore, they're gonna produce impressive things that we couldn't prepare them for, that we couldn't fathom. But what we can do is we can be... their chief inspiration officer for lack of a better term. We can guide them down the path

that they are so clear, because it's obvious, it's so clear what they want to pursue. And if we guide them down that path, if we put up some strong barriers along the way, we pour into their sense of virtue and... raise them to be good humans, to have a moral code, then they're going to excel. They're going to become outstanding members of society. And becoming an outstanding member of society means that you have a strong village, a strong town, and then all the way up to a strong nation. And that's what's led me down this path. Well, Adam Gibson: I love it. Chief Inspiration Officer. I love that. That's awesome. No, I mean it. It's just so good. I mean that's that's what we want, right? Jonathan Zalunardo: these kids, they just have this abundance of energy. And if we allow ourselves to tap into that, we were the ones that need to remind ourselves of what we were once upon a time as children. We were just filled with energy, just woke up alive every day. And I don't think that we're meant to lose that. I think in fact that we're meant to maintain that childhood enthusiasm for life, but somewhere along the line, we lose it. And then some, for some reason we think that we're meant to perpetuate this existence for our children, but maybe we can remember. that that wasn't always the way and that we can actually have this enthusiasm for life and that that's what we can actually learn from our children. Adam Gibson: Beautiful. That's in it's super inspiring when you say that. and just to clarity just for for clarity, I think th there's a perception, like what you just discussed sounds beautiful, but there's also a perception sometimes that there's there's no, you know, in a homeschool type or environment or the type of environment you're discussing means there's no rules, there's no boundaries, everyone does what they want. That's that's not what's going on at apogee, right? Am I correct? Jonathan Zalunardo: No, so I've been on this unlearning process myself and there's a term that gets some families used which is unschooling. We're unschooling ourselves to forget what it was like to be in school. We want our children to grow up naturally, which is great. But there's this parallel option which incorporates elements of that, which is what do you actually want to do? What path are we gonna put them on? What are some clear boundaries, some clear frameworks of how we can allow this child to excel? We're not just gonna let them wake up every day and we're gonna play at the park a bit and they can play their Xbox and we're just letting them be a free spirit. What about if we actually instill some of the principles of what it means to be an outstanding human being? What if we get them to schedule their day every day? What if we get them to, excuse me. What if we guide them in having a moral code? What if they are required to be involved in the upkeep of the place that they go every day? So Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: if they go to some sort of co-op

or if they're in some sort of homeschool group, what's their responsibility? What's a non-negotiable that they need to uphold or participate in to learn what it's like to... become an excellent human being. I keep saying this word excellent. I feel like I'm getting stuck on that a little bit, but. Adam Gibson: No, but that's what we that's what we want as parents for our kids, right? Is excellence. But genuinely Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah. Adam Gibson: across not just you know, perform and achieve and you know, do as you're told, but also, you know, an excellence in terms of expressing y your highest potential is it's that's what I'm hearing. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, and it's a matter of allowing them to be specific. You wanna do these things in your day? Cool. Let's plan them. Let's schedule them into our day. So out at Apogee, the... families that we serve, their children have a lot of freedom in their days, but there are also, as home education families, there's some responsibilities that they need to uphold. There's an academic component to what they're doing. And I'm going down this path at the minute of not calling it academic learning, but in fact calling it pattern recognition, because that's what reading is. It's recognising that symbols have this inherent meaning that... allow us to interface with the world, but giving them some time in a day where they're gonna schedule it in. We're gonna guide them in scheduling it, but you're gonna read a little bit. We're gonna read to you maybe. You're gonna have an older kid read to you. You're gonna do a little bit of arithmetic because you know what? If you can go down to the shop and you know that you got 10 bucks in your pocket and you can go buy, well you can't go buy much with it these days. You might get a liter of petrol, but you can go and do Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: something with that money and there's actually power and there's a sense of real... I am capable of doing something when you know what that 10 bucks in your pocket means. That you know if you can go and write a letter to somebody that or you can write to somebody about something that there's power in that. That with your increasing powers and capabilities that you can go out into the world and do excellent things. So we guide the kids on being able to do those things. We encourage them and we have a process of guiding them in entrepreneurship. So very simple things like Can you make something and go and sell it out the front of your house? Can you Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: just start with that? And let's see what this, just this focus on going down this entrepreneurial route, what does that create for you? What do you start to think about? What are some of the questions that you begin to ask? And then with good, strong adults around you that want you to become capable, that want you to be confident in who you are, what paths does that lead us down? Because it can't be clearly defined. I don't know what

the world's gonna look like in 10 years time. So why does their education have to be clearly defined for 10 years as well? But as families, we can have some clear standards that we uphold right here and right now, taking care of the space that we live in, treating everybody around us with some sort of moral code. Like having a clear framework of doing academics every day that Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: is gonna allow us to excel. And then fast forward a few years, we're gonna have a pretty good baseline of of capability. Adam Gibson: Hey mate, look in the in the rapidly, you know, exponentially changing world with AI and everything going on at the moment, it's could they you can't prepare a kid for a future like that with an with the linear process. You need that, you know, from my point of view as a parent. adaptability, entrepreneurship, critical thinking, empowerment, you know, self-determination, they're the things that you know, they're the fundamentals. If you've got those things you can navigate changing, changing tides and rough waters and whatever, if you don't have and that you're on a linear path, they're probably arguably headed for a scrap heap of redundancy in terms of skill set, 'cause man, it's it's it's hard to foresee what's coming. Jonathan Zalunardo: And it begs the question, how do you actually go about that? How do you prepare a child for the world that doesn't currently exist? And Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: you hear this quote that gets thrown around, schools should, or we should teach children how to think, not what to think. Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: So how do you do that? How do you teach a child how to think? And we think a pretty good starting point is just like at the beginning of every day, get them to write down a couple of things that they wanna do that day. Here are some foundations that we as families think are important. You're gonna read a bit, you're gonna clean your room, you're gonna clean up the space that you're in, you're gonna, these are some things as a family that we expect of you. You're gonna go for, you're gonna do some sort of exercise, you're gonna go to soccer training, but just being aware of these are the things that you're gonna do, and then because these are the things that you're gonna do, well then let's ask the next question of how you're gonna do a really good job of those things. What does it look like if you're excellent at them? You wanna go and play soccer? Why are we playing soccer? Do you wanna be good at it? Okay, if you're just going for a bit of fun, cool, that's your fun thing that you're doing. But what are the things in your life that you really want to do, that you really want to pursue? Let's jot them down as a basic starting point, and then you will start to see the kids start thinking about them. We've got kids that come out and hang out with us, and they like playing down at the creek every day. They write it down on their plan, go to the creek, and then you start seeing them rocking up with fishing rods every day. That is clear evidence that they are thinking, they wake up in the morning, they're like, I'm bringing my fishing rod today. Fast forward a week, they're bringing in hooks and lures and they're making fishing rods. They're showing that they're thinking about their life. And I don't know what that looks like in five years time, but there's a potential that they could be the innovators of what fishing looks like, what that industry looks like because they've been on this path of thinking about that. from a very early age and they've been surrounded by adults that are encouraging them to think about that, that are unpacking the questions that they bring up, which are very basic in an early age, how do you put this rod together or where's a good spot to go fishing? But Adam Gibson: Mm. Hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: fast forward because they're in this process of thinking, they're not having someone Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: do the thinking for them is a pretty good starting point from what I've gathered so far. Adam Gibson: Mate, that's the that's the fundamental piece, isn't it? That's the it's not a that they're engaged themselves, they're not being told to engage and then, you know, punished when they zone out. just to just for context, mate. Apogee, you call it a family leadership center, and it's so it's not a it's not a homeschool pod or it's not a it's not a school. Give us a bit more context. What age groups are there? You're on the Sunshine Coast, and how many kids are involved? Just give us a bit more scope of what this thing looks like and how it runs. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, we've been in operation for about a year now. We've got 15 families involved currently and we've got bit of a list of families that are looking to get involved now. So like you said, we're not a homeschool pod. Families, we view them as the chief educators of their children, so we're constantly in discussion with them. Where I'm a young parent myself, I've got a daughter that's about to turn four, another one that's one. So very early in my... days as a father. So we're learning just as much off them about what it means to be a parent, but then also what it means to be the chief educator of our children. And because we've brought together this community of families that have this mindset, I guess I'm the figurehead of it. The children come out there every day. Families often spend the day out there with us because they too have young children. They want their children to be around their younger siblings in the day. So... They'll be on site, they'll be working with their children academically or on the projects that they're working on. But then there also is a lot of room for their children to just explore the location that we have. We have a tool bench that the kids can work at. We've got a stage where the kids are doing performances and practicing different things. We have an

art room where the kids will be practicing their art skills and creating different things. We still have a big workshop area where we do workouts and that kind of thing in, but. ultimately the space that we've created, it's with this mindset that number one is that families are the most important person in a child's life. That's not controversial in any way, shape or Adam Gibson: Is it? Jonathan Zalunardo: form. And number two, that children have this innate capacity to educate themselves. So what do they need to be in order to do that? Well, they need access to things that they can learn from. They need a lot of fresh air. They need to be surrounded by nature, which... We have a beautiful site that's, I just mentioned to you, we have a creek that runs close by. We've got a beautiful grass field just beside us, trees everywhere, there's kookaburras and birds and cows next door. Yeah, it's just a beautiful place for children to grow up and as a basic starting point, like where do I want my daughters to spend their time growing up? I honestly couldn't think of many places better than the hinterland of the Sunshine Coast where we are. It's like being in the... Adam Gibson: Sounds pretty good, mate. I'm I'm listening to it going, Man, book me in, I wanna come and I wanna go back to school. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, it's, it's, I don't want to go get all biblical on you, but it's like being in the Garden of Eden. I don't know what that place is like, but I can imagine that that's kind of what it felt like. Yeah. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Fantastic. good. And and it's and it's every day or three two, three days a week, how often do you get together and how what's the is it, you know, nine to three kind of format or what's the what's a week look like? Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, families with the young ones, they come out two, three days a week. But we're open doors, like families, they sometimes come out there on the weekend, and they just hang out there. Because it's a, like I said, it's a kids love being there. They literally don't want to go home at the end of the day. But our primary offering, it goes three days a week. We run some workshops on Fridays where we have external providers come in. We're in the process of creating a teenage program as well. because currently the children that we're, or the families that we're serving, their children are aged between five and 11. That's just what's been attracted to us and what we're doing. But as part of Apogee, we have access to some excellent mentorship material that I've been lucky to participate in as well through their men's and women's program. But they also have programs that are specifically designed for teenagers, but for both young women and young men separately. So we're in the process of getting them off the ground and we're looking at launching them pretty soon actually. But as our primary offering, have children aged between the bracket of five and 11 that come out there three days a week. Adam Gibson: Gotcha. and again, just on a practical note, if a lot of people I think you know, would resonate with our conversation, but don't necessarily want to take the plunge and take the kids out of school yet and you know, like I still treading I guess, you know, put their toe on the water a little bit. Is there a way to engage with what you're offering without necessarily removing kids from school entirely? Or, you know, is there a is there a segue or a bridge there somehow? Jonathan Zalunardo: Look, it's difficult if Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: you're, it's one or the other. If you're in school, that's the pathway you're going down. But there's this misconception of what an alternative actually looks like because it often gets defined as home school. So the implication is then that I've got a desk in a room in my house and then I'm the child's teacher. But then, and. by definite, of course you're the child's teacher, you're the teacher in every other aspect of life, but this idea that you become like the person at the front of the room standing there with a chalkboard and a maths book, and that's not what it is at all. But just beginning with the... fundamental question of what is it that you want for your family? Who are you becoming? What do you want to become? What are some ideals in your life that you want to pursue? And it doesn't have to be logical in the beginning, but if you can actually define what it is that you want to become, like I'm not saying write down that you want to be a billionaire, who doesn't? But you might have some clear ideas about the direction that you want to go. we want to... learn about these things. These are the things that we want to be able to do every day. want to, we're a jujitsu family, so we want to be able to train jujitsu every day. Cool. Make that your starting point. And then what you start to learn when you go into the home education world is that there are so many different. ask ways that you can or groups that you can pour into. There's huge communities out there of people that are looking to come together, support each other, take care of and raise each other's children because that's what communities did once upon a time. It wasn't the responsibility of some stranger that you don't even know that you just get randomly assigned at the beginning of the year. It was actually our role as the people to, as a village, come together and create a version of ideal that we actually want and not just get handed or inherit. Adam Gibson: John, I tell me before we go too much further down that road, what's it like as a man teaching in such a female dominated sort of environment? And and how important is it now that you see f you know, for y for young boys and and and young women and girls, boys and girls to have some rail male more male role models in the space in teaching? Do you see that as a an issue right now or is it something that we're just getting used to? How how do you see that working?

Jonathan Zalunardo: Well, I'll start with saying when I started Apogee, my wife and I, we had a young girl born basically a few weeks before we started. Our intention was that it would be me and my wife alongside each other out there every day. We got taken down a different path. So in the beginning, it was just me. And what I very quickly identified was that the females, the girls that were out on site with me, they needed a female role model. They are becoming young women. And it's hard to have... a role model in the form of a hairy looking dude like me. That's not an aspirational figure for them. I have certain qualities that I can pass on to them. But really, to learn to become a confident and capable young woman, then you need women alongside you. So for young men, young boys that are going through the schooling system, I think it's something like 20 % in primary schools. is the amount of male school teachers that are in the system. And then when you've got an industry that's so heavily dominated by one gender, it can very quickly form the shape of the ideals of that gender. And that's not to say that their ideals are wrong, but there does, I don't think it's controversial to say that boys need boys. I know what it was like once upon a time to grow up as a young boy. We like crashing into each other. We like building stuff. We like rolling down hills and we like playing footy. And so, you know, there's rules at school, like you're not allowed to play tackle footy. And I sort of view it as, how can we actually create an environment where the boys can do those kinds of things? Because this is our innate instincts. But unfortunately, a lot of what a young man's instinct is, is suppressed in a school. And that's not because the women are doing anything wrong, but they just, they don't know. They never grew up as a young boy. So how can they know what it's like to be one? And I would certainly say that there needs to be a bit more input from the fellas out there. I think that's why it's so important as a father that they are present in their children's life. And that doesn't mean that they need to be, you know, they need to quit their job and be with their boy every day, but they certainly can be present in the conversation about what the standards we uphold are, what the day looks like. what our family's traditions and customs are and what we're actually going out there to pursue and then as a standing point of what their education's gonna look like as well. And then how can we find good male role models for them to actually spend their time with as well? And once again, it doesn't need to be 100 % of the time. I don't think it should be 100 % of the time, but how can we actually find someone positive for them to spend their time with? That's not just dad, because dad's gotta go home and put some food on the table and put a roof over our head. Adam Gibson: It's a big issue now, isn't it? 'Cause it the the danger is is that if the if they find role models by default who aren't, you know, via social media or whatever and it's they're not necessarily who you choose for them. and I I agree with the point you made earlier too. I just my own experience as a as a boy was even like a punch up in the schoolyard, even you know, it's it's it's so heavily frowned upon now and I this will be extremely unpopular me saying this, but I f I feel like having a punch up in a schoolyard taught you when to stop. It taught you a healthy respect. You normally go over the black eye and a blood nose and you shake hands at the end of it and you end up with mates. You that dynamic when you're kids? Nowadays it Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah. Adam Gibson: doesn't seem to happen and the violence that gets perpetrated sort of by teenagers, it's like kids don't they follow a video game for when to stop as a as a guideline rather than the knowing. th th there's a lack of boundary there, I think, that gets gets instilled when you actually do have that bit of rough and tumble as a young man. I don't know, that is it too contentious Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah. Adam Gibson: to say that right now, or d what do you think it's a teacher? It's a tough one, right? Jonathan Zalunardo: Well, I've got mates, I've got mates in military that'll tell you that violence is the gold standard, which leans into exactly what you're saying right there. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: And we find it, for some reason, we think it's acceptable to talk to children about sexual orientation and gender and all that Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: kind of thing from a very early age. But we stop them from crashing and tumbling into each other. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: And like you said, boys know when to stop. and actually Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: it's in an hour and eight. if I'm having an argument with someone and I'm pushing the linger and it turns into a physical altercation, we're gonna stop pretty quickly. We're not gonna go to the point of bashing each other to a pulp, but that's where it comes to let's have some actual adult guidance in the room and then let's unpack that afterwards. You Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: got to this point of escalation where the pen was no longer mightier. or no longer suitable and you got to the point of allowing your emotion to get the better of you to the point where you actually wanted to enact physical harm on the person that's right here in front of you as opposed to creating something with them, coming to a form of understanding with them. So that in itself is a learning experience and like the first time I ever coughed punches in my life, they didn't end real well, but they taught me a lot Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: and there's a learning in that as well. I would say that First time you get punched in the face, you never forget it. And you know, we wanna shelter our children and wrap them in cotton wool, but there's something that you take from it and

bad things are gonna happen to us in life. But some might say that everything happens for a reason and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So how do we create these environments where children are actually able to solve their own problems? And how can they have a bit of a rough and tumble in a safe environment and one that we actually build for them that shows them an appropriate way to act and Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: it leans into this idea of who are actually their role models? Who's telling them that swinging punches is actually the way to solve your problems as opposed Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: to going down a different path? Adam Gibson: Yeah, and I guess and what I was trying to say earlier, which I I was fumbling on, is if you do have that ability if you know what it's like to cop a f cop a a a full blooded punch in the nose, you realise in that moment that that is kind of the last resort. It's not something you immediately go to. You know what I mean? Like it becomes y you have a healthy respect for it as well that has a cost for both parties and therefore you have a more it's it's There's more incentive to avoid the violence than it is to lean into it, I would argue. and if it's not there, you go, well, that's just an option, and it's sort of you can resort to it without any fear of consequence until there is a consequence unintended. Anyway. so yeah, there's a Jonathan Zalunardo: Agreed. Adam Gibson: bit of that but you know, there was a day in my day if you had an argument at school, they said, All right, we'll go and put the boxing gloves on and start having a do it properly in the ring and sort your sort your problems out that way. Which I still like that approach Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah. Adam Gibson: personally. Jonathan Zalunardo: Hey, I ain't saying that every school in the country should have a boxing ring in it, but there's certainly some things that we can take from it that might actually be better. Adam Gibson: Maybe. Yeah. Anyway, there'll be there'll be some comments Jonathan Zalunardo: Maybe. Adam Gibson: on that one. I'm showing my age in this Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, let's go. Adam Gibson: conversation. but i that Jonathan Zalunardo: you Adam Gibson: la i how do we how do we attract more men into the space? Is there something that, you know, do we we have got that imbalance, I guess, in male female teachers and in education. Is there a solution for that? Do you think broadly? I know this is a big question, or do we just have to I guess fill the gaps in other areas of life. You said there's more more male friends around, more uncles, more intentional male role models filling in for kids. What do you see as what we can do about that? Jonathan Zalunardo: Look in regards to attracting males to the schooling system, that's... Adam Gibson: Well, I yeah, I mean, is it like it's not likely to change, right? That side of it. I mean you tell me as a male teacher, was it a good environment? Was it

what was it Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, there's a reason why. Adam Gibson: like for you in the as a male teacher, was it a welcoming environment? Did you feel supported as a bloke or was it something you felt kind of on the outside of things? Jonathan Zalunardo: Look, I guess to a certain extent I was somewhat an outsider like I'm a Big hairy dude that likes to do dude stuff I like to Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: go to my go to the gym with my mates and I like to do like I like to go outside and do some things that females aren't as interested in so when the ratio of males and females at my workplace is one to ten there's not many options for people that understand my way of thinking so Look, would I say that I was not supported? I would say that I was supported professionally in other aspects of my life, maybe not so much. But at the end of the day, what I've chosen to go and do now is build something in parallel. And for a family out there that wants male guidance and male role models for their children, we know that there's so many avenues out there where they actually get that. But if you want to take it a step further and you don't want your child to be taught or your young man to be taught by... So I'm just gonna make up a hypothetical scenario here, like a 50 year old woman who's not got that much enthusiasm for life, that might not be ideal for them. On the flip side, it might be the same for your young girl. You want someone that's more aspirational to them. And I would say that this is across the board for a lot of children. Like you have a child age six and they're learning off someone that's in their 30s. The mind that they have is so unattainable for them. as opposed to learning from other children, learning from teenagers, that they actually, that's the next step for them. My daughter's four and she's fascinated by the girls around her that are aged six, seven, eight, because that's who she is becoming. That's the next step for her. Adam Gibson: Mm. Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: So this is the other part of leadership that we talk about is how do we actually give children a capacity to become leaders of other people around them? How can they actually teach the people around them? because that's who they're becoming. And then I am the teacher of someone, I am also learning off somebody as well. So to think that the buck stops at an adult, I just think that that paradigm is wrong, that it's an adult's job to educate our children, but in fact, creating multi-age environments where a child age five has access to a child age eight or nine, because they have the capacity to read and write. to do things that are more attainable to someone of that age. Adam Gibson: And what a good thing for, say, the eight year old to realise there's a four year old who is needing to be mentored, looked after and cared for and taught. You know, like there's a there's a lot in that for both parties, right? For for the older kids to know that they're there

to look after the younger kids. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, it actually creates a more, Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: yeah, it creates a microcosm of life as opposed to Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: this single stream like everyone in the classroom is six and all I'm gonna do for the next 12 years is spend my time with children of the exact same age as me. And like that in itself, you're then saying, if you think about it in a just basic level, that's all the children have the same basic level of emotional capacity, level of maturity. So how can we expect them to then regulate themselves? Because there is no one in the room other than the one adult that is there to regulate that whole scenario. But when you've got, let's take a year four classroom for example, instead of everyone being 10, if it was a mixture of ages, if you had a couple of 12 year olds, couple of eight year olds, then all of a sudden you have this natural hierarchy where children look up to each other, children can guide each other, they can lead each other. It's this what you would see in the real world. So then some of those problems around like bullying to take this on a bit of a tangent where children are unable to effectively manage themselves, they actually get removed because you have a picture of what a normal society looks like. Adam Gibson: Yeah, big point, isn't it? It's yeah, it it is an unnatural construct. Otherwise, as you said, if every child's the same age, it's I've never even considered that. But very good. Just you know, to my come back to my previous point just to wrap this up, because we're nearly up to the hour. But as as men, as dads, who you know typically my experience in home school and education generally is that It is driven by the mums, that's the hard reality we found. and I was I think what you're doing is exciting for the fact that's you know, you're a bloke doing it and it it's like there's this masculine energy behind it, which I resonated with personally, because a lot it felt like a lot of the mums their priority was more there was a bit a little bit more cotton wool approach than there was rough and tumble to it. And I as blokes, as men felt we weren't really involved in the conversation to the same degree. How can we as fathers create a better environment for our kids to be to balance this out somewhat? What can we do as men? Is there a is there a culture shift here or is there a a call for blokes who have I don't know, tell me what we can do as blokes because I think it's what can we do is probably what as men we like to do things and sometimes it's easy to say, men aren't involved. We're not doing this. We aren't doing that. Well what can we do? How can we take more of a role here? Jonathan Zalunardo: As a basic starting point, the communities that you're a part of, the men that are actually of a collective, whether it's the sport club, the school, the insert collective of people that come together, recognising that they're,

that just our example, the way that we live alone, the actions that we take, that they are a significant teacher in the way that we're guiding. our children, that the lives that we choose for ourselves, like we say that we've got to go out there and we got a job, I got a job, I got to go to work from seven till five. Okay, is there a way that you can work around that? Is there somewhere in your day where you can take a couple of hours from it to actually be present in your child's education? As a family? What are the, do we have a set of family rules, a set of family standards that we're actively talking about? if you view it through the lens of a sports team or a high performing organization like a business, they all have a culture that they uphold. They have a system that they believe in. So as a family, why would you treat yourselves any different? Are you sitting down at the dinner table and discussing? your objectives, what you did in that day. And then it comes back to this question of, how was school today good? And that's where the conversation ends. Well, that's something that you should be as the leader of the family, know, historically, or, you know, when you talk about the patriarch and the matriarch, whatever, we're a family. And if you, a father, take your role seriously, you want to guide your children. That's the masculine sort of archetype Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: is to, we want to lead, we want to set a standard, that's what we want to do. So to be intentional about that, to have those honest discussions with your wife about, what are our actions actually saying right now? Let's, like talk is cheap, let's analyze what we're actually doing here, because that's what Adam Gibson: I Jonathan Zalunardo: we really believe. And just beginning with that question and then recognizing that if you're going to the pub on the weekends and you're watching footy all weekend or you're sitting there scrolling and watching Netflix that that is actually a significant teacher of your children and there might be some actions that you want to take differently that are going to guide your children down a different path. That's a pretty good starting point. Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Cool. And mate, as you're saying this, it's it's it's it's what's what's I'm really aware of is that having some of these conversations and choosing as men to stand up and say we want to, you know, take with the leaders in the household, that sounds like a really revolutionary statement in the current political environment. But it's kind of you know, it's it's why not? Why not have that again? Why not Why don't we just disrupt this current kind of woke narrative we've all slipped back into and realise that maybe a bit of outspoken masculine leadership is not a bad thing. You know, and I know that it's that that can be a health in a healthy way, absolutely. But you know, that's maybe what a lot of our kids need. I want strong men they can lean in on and know they can be protected by and feel feel safe around. Is that a you know do you agree? Not a popular conversation to have necessarily, but yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: Well, we say from the very... It is uncomfortable in this current, the current zeitgeist that we live in, I Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: said from the very beginning that we have different talents, we have different skill sets. I... do not have the capacity to raise my children the way that my wife does. Adam Gibson: Hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: I can't even grow a child. I can't do Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: the things that are necessary for my infant children to be raised. I don't have the biology to do so. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: So just that alone, you know, we have... a different mind, a different way of being, but they're meant to coexist with each other. There's men and women. We're meant to come together and there are different functions that we perform. There are different things that we are good at. Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: yeah, I don't want to come across as like hold them back with what I'm saying here, but I do recognise that this is a very sensitive conversation to have, but this is one that Adam Gibson: It is, yeah, it is. Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: we do need to have because ultimately what's, who we're failing by not having this conversation is our children. and it's confusing for them. But if we have clearly defined roles within the family, whatever that may look like, you as a male, do have this feminine polarity to us. They do exist in conjunction with each other. So then they exist inside of all of us. So those roles, if we define them clearly, they can coexist within the family unit or within the household. or whichever way that your family exists. There are single parent families out there. Okay, how are we gonna manage this? How are we gonna best bring this into existence? But these are, despite the fact that they're uncomfortable, this is just an emotion that we're feeling. It doesn't mean that we have to throw our toys out the pram and say this is all too hard. In fact, we should probably lean into that because Adam Gibson: Mm. Jonathan Zalunardo: it's for the betterment of our children and our society and our country as a whole. Adam Gibson: Hundred percent agree with that, mate. And that's if COVID taught us anything the whole period there, it's like the ability to s stand our ground, speak up in an uncomfortable time, even when the rest of the world seems to disagree with us, is it it's part of being a man nowadays and what's it's necessary to I think to be fully in your masculine nowadays. And it's as you point out, it's actually our kids we're failing if we don't. And you know, what that's that's probably the biggest thing. I think as men we need to model for our children is here's the courage to speak our truth regardless. that's I think we've been saying that now for five or six years and it's never been

more important because it seems I mean, culturally there is a there is an attack on that. You know, we've even now it feels uncomfortable to say, man, we have a biology that's different to women. It's like what a ridiculous thing to feel uncomfortable about, but that's you know what we find ourselves in. We're not allowed to talk about this shit. Jonathan Zalunardo: can't breastfeed my girls. Adam Gibson: Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, it's just that alone. I can't do that. So I don't know what it feels like to do that. It just doesn't exist. we're Adam Gibson: Yeah, so Jonathan Zalunardo: ignoring the reality that is right in front of us, I would say. Yeah. Adam Gibson: Yeah. And if there's a culture of the way I'm at the way I think these days, if if if the world wants you to think one way, it's probably for a it's probably in a darker agenda behind it. So question it deeply and then make your own path. That's what I think is what is remarkable and, you know, fully admirable but that what you've what you're doing with apogee is you've forging your own path, you've taken a step out of the system into the risk of running your own race and being an entrepreneur, but also providing something really unique and fabulous for the lucky generation of kids around your area. what what are if people are listening to this, John Owen say, look, I'd love to this I want this guy to come and create an apogee near us, what do they do? Is there another avenue there or what's the next step? Or is there any options at all? Yeah. Jonathan Zalunardo: As a basic starting point, yeah, so I'm an affiliate of the Apogee Network. I'm the only, or we are the only affiliate outside of the United States. There's one in Canada, but outside of the United States, we're the only ones. So as a basic starting point. How do we move forward here if you want to learn more about what we're doing get in contact with us? We're on social media apogee underscore Oz we can put like our communication details at the bottom here, but We are we are in conversation with a few different people around the country that are starting to become interested in what we've created and the ideals that we hold and Now and the vision that we have the way that Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: we can create something in parallel So get in contact with us and we can start the conversation there and get you some of the materials that we first got in the beginning and what Apogee's about and the path that we've taken. Adam Gibson: Yeah. And I I'd I'd add to that for those listening to realise that I've known John O for a little while now because I was interested in what he was doing with apogee over a number of years and I've seen him take the big leap, grow into the space, you know, the way he talks about what he's doing now and w how he understands it is you know, it's so more so much more a mature message than when he started. And I guess all I'm saying that, you know This is a it's a continuum. You

take the step, you create something, even if you feel unqualified. I would I would guess for you, Johnny, you well, I know you didn't feel very qualified to do this when you started, is that right? If you go back two years ago. How did you feel about stepping into the space? Jonathan Zalunardo: Well, first of all, thank you for the compliment, sir. better than most the path that I've taken and I'd never run a business before. I, like you said, it's a certain maturity process that you go through because in the beginning I was just a very frustrated and I would say angry young man. I felt like I'd to a degree been lied to or cheated about what my role as a teacher was. I don't like, that's an occupation. don't like, I don't consider myself a teacher anymore. That's not what my purpose is, but. I guess to use one of your terms, I've copped a couple of blood noses. I've recognized that my message wasn't very clear in the beginning. I wasn't even sure what I was going out there to do, but I was just driven by this conviction that we were doing something wrong and that we were failing our children and we were failing the next generation and that... I needed to do something because I couldn't just complain every day. I couldn't be angry at the system that we'd inherited. And I didn't want to live that way. I didn't want to wake up every day just angry at what I was doing or feeling like I was leaving something on the table. So went down the uncertain path and that's where we are today. When we started this, we were living in Canberra. Life took us to the Sunshine Coast, a place that I'd literally never been before. Adam Gibson: There you go. Beautiful. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, it's funny how these things all line up, but yeah, here we are. Adam Gibson: Yeah. So, again, for those listening, if you've got that sort of itch to see something like this happen, reach out, get in touch with John O. being, you know, as he's just described, being feeling the need to create something better, feeling that anger or frustration, letting it transmute into something better, letting that be the impulse energy behind a creative project. I think that's the that's the energy I think our whole country needs right now. It's we feel that. frustration with the system, with education, with media, with the medical system, et cetera, et cetera, the banking system, how do we turn it into something better? And John, you've been a great example of that. You you know, go out thoroughly unqualified to begin with to create your own thing and you've gone and turned it into no, but like I just say that from the point of view of it's it's not a prerequisite. It's what the prerequisite is is willingness. And the courage just take a step. And you've shown that. And look what it's turned into for the kids in your who are lucky enough to be part of your network there now. It's fabulous. So I just want to hold you up there as an example of what's possible when you see a problem and you decide to do something about it. It's where I'm it's where I'm trying to get to with that point. and how do people Jonathan Zalunardo: Thank you, sir. Adam Gibson: get in touch with you, mate? You you mentioned you got socials, but just do it for the audio Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah. Adam Gibson: as well. Jonathan Zalunardo: Yeah, find us on social media, Apogee underscore Oz. That's AUS, that's where you can find us. Adam Gibson: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Zalunardo: yeah, in the notes, we can put up a couple of links where you can find us at. yeah, we've got a couple of... interesting things that we're looking to launch in the in coming days and weeks when this recording goes live so that we can be able to support home educating families across the country, families that are uncertain about the path that they're meant to be going down. So ultimately we're just driven by this conviction that families are the chief educators of their children, that children have an innate capacity to educate themselves and that childhood joy is something that we're meant to maintain not just for childhood but for life. So any way that we can get this message out there, we're looking to explore it the minute and I don't know what it looks like in a week or a month's time. I'm just taking it day by day and just, I just, this message that we share about what it can look like for our children, like I just feel that aliveness in myself now that we're on a path every day and I said there before about dads and the example that we set, well, I guess I'm the living embodiment of it whether I realise it or not. Adam Gibson: Sure are, mate. Thanks again, Jonah, for your time. Love your work, buddy. Jonathan Zalunardo: Thank you, sir.