Episode 2: From 1,000 Couples to Secure Love: The Magic of Emotionally Focused Therapy의 전체 녹취록

internally for someone. And we'll have we'll have new things popping up all the time. And certain segment of the population that is not yet ready or is incapable or just did not have the resources to reach out and and and get real help or a real relationship, they they they can, you know, there will be another tool and another leaning, like I said, over time to allow them to not deal with their problems. And, you know, as we know, dr you know, the drug epidemic is getting huge with fentanyl and You know, the issue is to me is not the drug, it's not the the the AI, it's not the food, it's not the drug, it's not the not the porn, it's not the video games. The issue at hand is the pain that people are experiencing that they don't have access to whether internally or externally to be able to ⁓ to sort of deal and and and face and confront the the the real the real issue, which is the the pain and the trauma that that they are are running from. speaker-0: And so when you use the word escapism, another thought that another important question that we have been getting is why do celebrators, why is there that among the celebrators the breakup and the separation and the divorce is so much? The rate is too high. ⁓ over there is what you know we are seeing. At least probably that's because we are exposed to their lives more, but that could be a reason. But there's ⁓ we we heard somebody's getting into a relationship and within six to seven months they're usually with someone else and then it keeps changing. Are we saying that the actors and the actresses or people in the film field have more concerning attachment styles than the people outside? Is that what we are seeing at? And is that kind of attachment, concerning attachment important for them to be good actors and actresses? Is that helping them take other roles? Is that something that, you know, something is hurting so much that they're able to focus on the work and make it into a good, you know, space? Yeah. speaker-1: So yeah, certainly work work like film can can be a great escape to not have to deal with ⁓ with their inter interpersonal issues and their intrapersonal ⁓ issues that within them. You asked a lot of questions in there, so it's hard to know exactly I'm thinking about what to answer. As far as like divorce and and and and sort of relationships not working out, I don't know necessarily because it's not like something that we tracked for a long time. How what percentage of relationships work and are happy and are people speaker-0: Crap. speaker-1: Where it sort of quote unquote works, but they stay in unhappy relationships. And then what percentages end up kind of breaking up in the the pre-marriage phase and then the post kind of while while they're married. So my sense though is that, you know, that I don't know that the the rates are have necessarily changed. Sure, there are a lot more outlets to not work on the relationship in the same way that we just discussed, not dealing with your

own issues. And there's certainly you can just go on the computer and and swipe again and find another partner. relatively quickly. So that's a a a lower barrier than than maybe in the past. But I think if I had to guess, probably ninety percent of relationships don't end up working. If if fifty percent of relationships that are that lead to marriage don't end up working, it's gotta be about ninety percent that end up not working. And yet, why is it that despite things not working, we're like a moth to a flame? That analogy that we'll just keep going into another relationship, into similar dynamics over and over and over despite not being happy, despite not getting the results that we're looking for. What what would you say the answer to that is? Why do we keep going back and and trying again? speaker-0: We trying to get something that we missed in the childhood from another person, is what I would say. And sometimes we've speaker-1: Yeah, that's the reason why we enter unhealthy dynamics. But but I'm I'm more like at a at a fundamental level. Why do we keep ⁓ striving to this time, right, not get burnt this time, right? Like why, why, why do we do that? speaker-0: It's the attachment styles that we have. If if I'm an anxious attachment style person, I'll probably go with a person who's an avoidant or a disorganized and then that cycle keeps happening. Why do we do it? We are hopeful. We are hopeful that next time it's going to be different. Why are we hope that's a very good question. Why are we hopeful that the next time it's going to be different? Because we have a desire, I believe, deep within to be loved. speaker-1: Why are we Right. To love and to be loved, right? As the Moulin Rouge saying, that's our purpose in life. ⁓ one of the main purposes, the main driving factors of all life, right? At least mammals, if not more so, but at least mammals, this is a built-in mechanism that's at least four or five hundred million years old. From the original mammals, right, to sexes, we have a desire to mate, right? And what is mating, if not ⁓ to couple to attach to another another being to love them, right? And this goes from we say in EFT from the cradle to the grave. From the moment we're born, we have a not a desire, but an instinct to attach. As babies, if we do not have a caregiver there, we will die within a few days, right? We just can't we can't survive. Right? We'll die within a few minutes without without the the nourishment. But even if we got everything we needed physically we will not survive without a caregiver. So back to your question of AI, a robot will will will kill a baby within seven days, even if it meets all its needs. Because it can't attach to something that does not have the gaze of a human being. Maybe one day they'll make a robot that will have a gaze that will be similar enough and and and a baby can attach to it. But this is the the the the the sort of parent or caregiver child attachment. It's it's instinctual Because

we can say why we because we're we're born premature and we're dependent on on a caregiver to take care of us physically. And that's why instinctually it's we need to attach to ⁓ an external sort of brain to to get us to a place where we can be self-sufficient, right? That's one one answer. But but then why as an adult do we have that same desire to to meet a romantic partner, right? We don't technically need it to survive physically, right? But But almost everyone will still gravitate ⁓ towards this this this sort of inherent need to be with someone and to continually try until they have an inner sense of sort of happiness and connection that is built into us. That's my belief, is that we need to have this in order not just to, you know, from a an evolutionary standpoint propagate the species, right? But it's it's it's a it's at a much deeper spiritual. level that we need to bond to someone. You can look at all the research, you know, read Love Sense, a great book by Sue Johnson. All the research on what categories of identities are the happiest. And by a yard, like by a mile, by a kilometer, because we're in Canada, married people that are happy live longer, have less stress, ⁓ like now by like a a significant, significant margin compared to single people that are happy single. Right worse off are people that are married and unhappy, interestingly enough. So it's not about the being married or being coupled. It's about being coupled and being happy in that relationship, which you know, for most people takes a lot of work to get there. But once you're there, or if you have the fortunate enough of upbringing that you're secure enough to pick someone that's also secure. And so then it might not take that same amount of work and you reach there kind of in an easier way. But for the for most people they they don't have that. And so you know, g it's almost like this like this mountain that people all ⁓ like inherently want to climb until they get there. Almost like a corporate or a you know a a position of power kinda or success. But this is another pillar of sort of like Maslow's hierarchy, but but in a different sense from from kind of, you know, basic needs to to to actualization. Part of that actualization is like a a category of it is is is your quality of your of your relationships. And romantic relationship is one subset of that that's that's sort of there at the one of the most important things that that we're on this earth to speaker-0: to have and achieve. Yeah. I agree with you of your ⁓ one more question. We'll bring this podcast to the end and then we'll have the second part of this podcast coming up soon. ⁓ is it possible for a person to feel completely loved, completely a hundred percent loved by his or her partner? Or is that something that we still search for even even after we are in a relationship? speaker-1: Before I answer your question, is anything actually impossible? speaker-0: Is there anything you actually talk about? speaker-1: Is it possible? Of course. Is it possible? How likely is it? I think there's a lot of factors that that that that come into play. For most people, I would say it is possible, but it does take a lot of work. It takes doing your own inner work and and then once you're in a relationship, it takes doing that work together. You don't come into a relationship fully healed. That is not possible. You come into a relationship being able to own your own. speaker-0: ⁓ like speaker-1: shit as they say your own baggage, your own upbringing, taking responsibility for it. And then also having capacity ⁓ to know that your partner is also not perfect. And then that if if both of you are able to do that, ⁓ you're able to to make magic together. Yeah you're able to come together and achieve that happiness that I don't think is possible for an individual to have on this earth. speaker-0: Okay. Thank you, Ofier, ⁓ for ⁓ joining us today. We will be meeting again. ⁓ just one more question. How is it coming with ⁓ the ⁓ the TV show? speaker-1: Well the the the get F Biofear ⁓ T V show is is going well. We're working towards the end of the first phase. The logos, the the branding, the website, the legal is done. And we're looking at shooting once we have our cast, our couples, mid May to early early June is the hope, ⁓ that we'll start shooting. And ⁓ by September it's gonna air. So we're very, very excited for that. speaker-0: Quite excited. I believe all our viewers are also waiting for that. It's going to be something that a lot of therapists can learn from, interns can learn from. People can identify the issues and they can probably reach out for assistance and help. Thank you so much. speaker-1: It's also a new show that just started on Netflix ⁓ March fourth or fifth, I think. It's called Blue Therapy. It's ⁓ it's it's a little bit more on the reality TV side of things than the couples therapy show on Showtime. But ⁓ it's what I like about just this is that ⁓ I think more and more ⁓ money and investment is being put behind shows like this that are actually ⁓ even though I'm not a fan of the style of this one in particular. ⁓ the fact that it's being made speaks to that there's an audience for it and that there's a a hunger more than just entertainment, but that right, like therapy and like to be able to be inside the therapy room is something that's always been, you know, ⁓ I don't know, ⁓ thing people stay away from from that, like companies and therapists themselves. And I I I'm really appreciative that it is starting to come a little bit more into the mainstream because before a few years ago, the only way you could experience therapy is to be in a room with a therapist or to see it on TV. And when you see it therapy on TV, it's I've never seen any depiction that r even remotely resembles the the real thing. So I like that now there ⁓ there's a willingness and and and a hunger ⁓ and and and people willing to take the risks, organizations, Netflix,

Showtime willing to take the risk of putting this kind of stuff out there with all the ethical and legal legal implications. So it's it's very exciting that that we're not just gonna be entering into a medium with nothing exists. There's already a couple of shows now ⁓ that will be joining. So I'm I'm really happy about that. speaker-0: Very happy to because it is going to break down that stigma also in because in a lot of societies there's a stigma of what going for couple therapy. So this one is going to break it and it's going to give them an idea of how a therapy is supposed to be. It's not where a therapist asks you what to do something and it's not solution focused. It's way more in depth, looking into attachments. Quite excited for all of us to watch it. speaker-1: Yeah, so the first thing is is called Get F Biofear and and the sky's the limit. I think, you know, if if if if it it takes off, we might have ⁓ you know, get if by rejo or or or an individual therapy version of that. You know, get something by by REGO. We'll see next season. ⁓ it can branch off to a lot of a lot of different things. I hope ⁓ you know, people will appreciate the amount of work we're putting into it and the love that we're putting into it and ⁓ and and you know, that someone can see themselves in in the room and and even if they don't ever come in for therapy would still benefit from it. That's that's my hope ⁓ to extend, you know, healing beyond, you know, the people that I directly work with. So I I'm I'm very excited for. speaker-0: Perfect. Thank you, Ophir. ⁓ wishing you a nice and happy day. I know you're going in for couple therapy. Wishing you the best for that. It's gonna go as beautiful as always. Take care, Ophir. Thank you. Hi, Of your after years of sitting with people's pain, what have you learned about what actually helps people heal? In the context of couples counseling. Yes. ⁓ I think the most important thing is risk taking. It's the first thing that leads to the potential of corrective experiences. I always think bottom up, not top down. At the end of the day, we we want them to have corrective new experiences that override their old ones. For our audience you're hearing, can you explain the difference between bottom up and top down? Yeah. So what I mean in this case, in bottom up specifically, well, in general, I mean inside out as opposed to outside in. you know, bottom up instead of top down. But but in this particular case, what I'm referring to is when I say risk taking, I'm referring to sharing in a way that is scary but is healthy. ⁓ and what that generally looks like is sharing in the most vulnerable way possible. We have words for it. We call it primary as opposed to secondary. So we share in a primary way. In other words, it's the truth. It's the truth of what it is you're going through. That's what we're trying to to share. When you say bottom up, would you be would you be sitting with the how the clients are feeling in their body? Yeah. Ultimately is we're ambassadors for our body. Yeah. When our body is going through something, if we have trauma, our body learns the trauma teaches you not to share what your body is trying to signal to you. So in different ways we learn to mask that. So there's hundreds of maybe thousands of different ways we mask, but we're sending indirect signals for our body. And so my job is to get them to access truly what's happening in their body one on one while their partner is in the room. And then once they feel safe, once it's emergent, once it's Felt in the room once it's visceral, once they are in that experience, I ask them what is it, what would it be like to share that with your partner? That's where all the fears come up, that's where all the attachment wounds, that's where all the history, the all the trauma comes up, and all the resistance and all the blocks and all the things telling them not to do what it is that I'm asking them to do come up. And that's where the magic happens. When they take the risk, that's when the magic happens. It can. Yeah. It can or it can fail miserably. What happens if it fails miserably? What do you do at that time? How do you hold the space? What would you do if a bullet came at you? I'll get hit. I'll feel pain. But how do we prevent how how do we prevent the bullet from hitting you? To not stand the way of fire. One way, yeah, is to avoid the bullet. Another way is to catch it. So my job is to catch the bullet. ⁓ huh. So we have a term in EFT called catching the bullet. Yes. Yes. So as soon as we see a bullet coming, why would we let it hit the the the other person? Right? The person doesn't want to be sending a bullet. The other person doesn't want to be receiving a bullet. They're they're working from old pews. They're working from old patterns. Right. And when I see that, I I interrupt it. I intervene. Yeah. So the least amount of damage is done. That might be one second into their share. That might even be before their share. If I see a bullet coming, my job is to catch it. One of the things that sometimes when I speak with the counselors or with people who are not even counselors, one of the things that are coming up is that the divorce rates are higher at this point in time than it was, let's say fifty years back. Not getting controversial, but you know, there are concepts of the feminists or the the roles of masculinity and femininity to take a risk. Speaking the truth is not ⁓ is not controversial. It's it's it's a risk. It is a risk, yeah, yeah yeah. So the the masculinity and femininity being blood, did all this contribute to the relationships failing speaker-1: Be afraid. speaker-0: ⁓ you know, in I in America I think ⁓ the statistics is fifty percent of the l people who are getting married are getting ending up in divorce. So did the roles that are getting blurred, did that how much of that contributed to the relationships failing? That's really hard to say. There's a lot of ⁓ reasons why

the the rate is fifty percent. It may be that it was always fifty percent. It may be that it was always ninety percent, right? The fact that we use this number, we're one only counting ⁓ marriages. We're not Counting all relationships. Not all relationships end in marriages and then end up failing after a marriage. Many relationships, ⁓ people break up before they get engaged, right? They before they end up getting married. Or they're common law and they end up getting separated. And and and those wouldn't ever go into the stats. So in reality, it's probably closer to ninety per I don't see a relationship ending as a failure though. Relationships are like a recipe, like a baking recipe. Mm-hmm. You've got different ingredients, each partner. Is different ingredients. They've got their genetics. They've got their upbringing, right? They've got every single relationship they've ever been in. Mm-hmm. And then the other side as the same, right? Different genetics, different place and time, maybe different age. They come in and they go into the oven together. And whatever the recipe is, whatever the temperature is, let's say the environment at the time, will produce scientifically the result that you would expect from from a baking recipe. It's not it's an inevitability that the end result is the end result. In the separation or in therapy, we become aware of what this what the recipe is, right? The ingredients for each partner. And these blind spots become magnified and comes comes to the sunlight. And then we can do something about it. Until that happens, until you you you get an intervention of like a therapy or some someone points it out or you become aware of it. And and often that does come in the end of a relationship. What happens after you're broken up with? What do you experience? There's pain, yeah. Yeah. What's a better teacher than pain to to to to reflect on what happened? So when you look at from that perspective, yeah. Yeah. Do you regret any relationship you had before you had been with your wife? Do I I regret I learned a lot. I learned a lot. Have you ever called anything you learned something from a failure? No. So we think that weights for a failure. How much did you pay for your education? For those educations almost nothing, just pain. What about your formal education? That's a lot of money, yes. What did you learn more from? Your formal education or the free quote unquote education about yourself? About yourself, yeah. The pain. ⁓ the the the ⁓ the pain that I went through. Yeah, you're right. Well the price of admission is the pain. Yes. Still not a failure. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I I really appreciate the way you have looked at divorces not from a point of failure but from a point of learning. I I really appreciate it because a lot of people who have been through separations can feel like a failure. Society can make them feel that way. And so the very fact that you're look you you turn that whole lens and not looking

at as a failure, but rather a learning experience, right? I I I really appreciate that. That that that probably can put a lot of people need to emotionally. Mm-hmm. One of my favorite one of my favorite couples, I'll just kinda mention this, is someone That I saw three separate times. Uh-huh. Three separate partners. And it wasn't until the third one that she was ready to really do the work. But if it wasn't for the other two and our work together, I'm not sure if she would have been ready. So even though you can even say my therapy failed, albeit it was my very early in my career that process that she goes, now that I'm with this partner, I could actually do the work with my third partner. Yeah. Does therapy fail or does it make it more obvious if they cannot be with each other? Same answer. EFT is meant to elucidate the truth, whatever it is. Yeah. ⁓ that might mean sometimes that partners are not ready, or the truth that one person is not ready to be in this relationship comes to light. Mm-hmm. A good analogy is COVID. A good percentage of couples, not even stories, like actually my couples. During COVID, a good percentage got closer together because of COVID when they came back and did to you know to to work. I'd like to work with me. ⁓ because one of the main issues in the relationship, they were both so busy, they just didn't have enough quality time together. And and and COVID was a was a blessing for them to be able to spend more quality time together. It allowed everyone to slow down. That was what was missing. Another good percentage, COVID was a big stressor. And, you know, was everything in the relationship where that was not working was magnified during this time. Which is not a bad thing if you address it. But if it's not addressed, it becomes more more data, more residue that gets swept under the carpet. And then one layer on top of another layer on top of another layer, the carpet's like very lumpy at a certain point. Right. And now they get they come back for for sub support. Yeah. ⁓ taking it back a few steps, just want to talk to you about the concept of masculinity. ⁓ you know, as a relationship therapist, what is the role of masculinity in a relation ⁓ in a relationship? I mean, because there's a lot of backlash against masculinity, right? Calling masculinity toxic. But masculinity as such, as we know, is not toxic. There are toxic traits, it can be in femin femininity or in masculinity, there can be toxic traits. That's my view on that. But You you can you can correct me or you can contradict it and that's ups we'll have a discussion on that too. But how what is a role of masculinity in a n in a modern relationship? I'm gonna I'm gonna channel Sue Johnson for this answer. She's the creator of EFT. Yeah. ⁓ she created one of the main tenets of EFT is that it's a non-pathologizing model, right? The word toxic is is has a connotation of being bad, right? Which is a type of pathology. So even that we start the question with with

pathologizing something already have my flags go up, right? Any trait in a particular environment is gonna be functional or not functional, but it will always be understood if you go back far enough or if you understand the context, right? As to why that is happening. Yeah. Sue had a very, very popular story that she would tell around the word narcissism. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: Because it's like a big word. It's very used: narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder. And her story was the can I'll start with the conclusion. The conclusion is that we are all narcissistic in the wrong environment. So the story was: she gets on a plane, and I might be butchering the story, but this is how I remember it. She gets on a plane, she's running late, she finally gets to her seat. She already has severe flying anxiety, even though she flies all the time. And and and I'll just pause, you know, Sue Sue Johnson was my mentor. She died in April 2024, a couple of years ago, probably around this time, around April 20th. And ⁓ actually might be her her anniversary today. I'm gonna look it up after. But that aside, she gets to her seat. She's already hyperventilating herself and late and takes her pill to calm down for flights. And ⁓ I remember she said a large man. Comes and is moving through the seats and ends up sitting right beside her and pushes through and has to sit there. And he goes, I think I'm gonna have a heart attack. Panic attack, one or the other. I think it was panic attack, actually. And Sue Johnson worked with 20 or so thousand couples, right? Created this beautiful model, one of the most empathic people in the world. What do you think she says to him? She says to him, no, you are not having a panic attack on this plane, and goes into Directive mode, right? And that so that's a very narcissistic, you could say, response. She's just being selfish right now, right? Right. And so the the purpose of that story is even the most non-narcistic person can do a narcissistic thing in a particular environment. Yeah. If our needs are not met, if we're sleep deprived, if we're hungry, if we're thirsty, someone wants something from us and we ⁓ have no capacity to to give it to them, we will be narcissistic, right? Yeah. So You know, to your question about masculinity, femininity, certain traits toxic, not toxic. I know there's a big conversation in the world about it, maybe less so now, but there were it was very much in front and center up until quite recently. ⁓ I don't think any trait is toxic in and of itself without understanding the context. I think some things, like any kind of coping, may be functional in a particular moment. be not functional for for what that person wants or for a relationship, right? But at some point in time, I guarantee you it was functional for that person. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's it does. What is it that the most people misunderstand about therapy before they

start it? What do you think? I mean, especially with couples. Couples. Yeah. I hope my T V show will help dispel some of the myths. That is one of my main my main aims. Yeah. But I think one of the most common things that people come to also I I need to really specify not all couples therapy is the same. Yes. Right? Yes. So my approach to couples therapy is emotionally focused therapy, which is very different than Gottman, which is very different than systems theory, which is very different than Satir, right? Which is very different than Gestalt. They're all very different. They have a lot of overlapping traits. But I'm just gonna speak for EFT in particular, ⁓ or actually for couples therapy coming in dispelling it. One of the biggest things that I see is that maybe there's a few, is that so for men, withdrawing men, one of the things that's specifically for them that comes up is it's gonna be two on one. It's gonna be the therapist and my partner coming in to tell me I'm wrong, to tell me ⁓ to gang up on me, right? So that's what makes people quite reluctant to to start the process. And that's where you hear people like having to drag in their partners to therapy, to couples therapy. The other thing is that we're going to be going into your childhood and we're going to be having to sift through all these painful memories and going to like old wounds that they don't want to go into, which is also a myth. A third is that I'm just going to be telling people what to do. And it's my role to say who's right and who's wrong. And this is how you're going to fix it. And that's another big Those are kind of two in one that I'm gonna tell you how to fix it and that there is a right and a wrong, which you know, if you connect my last question about non-pathologizing, there is no right and wrong. Yeah. To bring it back to your ⁓ bottom up or or top down, this is another good way to explain it. On the top level, we can argue, you can call it the cognitive, you can call it the story, you can call it the content level. We there is a right and wrong answer. There is an objective. This is clean and this is dirty. This is my preference and this is your preference. The world is right wrong, the world is flat. We have answers, right? In the external world. When it comes to the bottom, which is the experience, there isn't a right and a wrong. There's this person and this person's experience. And they're both right. They're in a particular moment in time, two people are experiencing very different things in relation to one moment in time. Yeah. One event, the experience are two different spaces, yeah. And that comes back to the recipe, the ingredients in the recipe. That's what causes the person to have that different experience. How do you personally take care of your own mental health and emotional health while holding, you know, space for others? Because you you you have been in this field for twenty plus years, if I'm not mistaken, right? ⁓ my practicum was in twenty twelve. Twenty twelve. So that was sort of when I started seeing clients January twenty twelve. So that's fourteen years, but then registered twenty thirteen. So yeah. Thirteen, fourteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. ⁓ you're dating me. I feel old now. Well, how do you how do you personally take care of yourself? ⁓ honestly, one of the things, and it's gonna sound weird or maybe unhealthy, is is actually doing couples work is very therapeutic for me. When I was not in a good place, I lowered my caseload thinking that this will help me a couple of years ago. And ⁓ it actually was counterproductive because seeing couples is very therapeutic. It's actually part of my self care, believe it or not. It makes me feel competent, capable. I get really good feedback. I get rewarded. I get re ⁓ fulfilled seeing the the growth, the change in people, in couples, ⁓ specifically. So that's one one thing and ⁓ anything can be taken to the extreme. Like I have a a quite a light caseload, I think, relative to most counselors, given my rule. And I see about ten to twelve client hours a week, which is not not that much, you know, nothing close what you see, which is probably almost three times as much as me. I mean, yeah, I couldn't see thirty hours like you if ⁓ like do while still doing everything I'm doing right yeah. ⁓ another thing is is sports. I really enjoy sports. I play now two days ⁓ of sports a week. Uh-huh. What do you play? ⁓ pickleball on Wednesdays. Uh-huh. Thursdays I do I'm in a multi sport league. So this week we're doing hockey. A week or a week ago with soccer the week that was basketball. The week before that was ultimate Frisbee. So every week we do a different sport. I think we're doing dodgeball next week. Yeah. What is the hard truth about healing that people don't want to hear but need to? I think there's only one way to solve a problem, right? Sometimes we say there's many ways to skin a cat, right? Mm-hmm. That expression. Yeah. The only way to confront, to overcome a problem is not going over it, is going through it. You can't overcome You have to confront, you have to go into it. The way we say the only way over pain is through the pain. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And that doesn't mean you have to go through it fast. Yeah. You know, or or there's only one way to go through that pain. But but you can only heal by feeling it, having like fully connecting to it. And then in the couples context, having a new result when you speaker-1: A speaker-0: Expose that to your partner. A new result, meaning not what you had experienced before in your where the pattern is breaking and a new new space is being formed. Yeah. Yeah. Like when I said taking a risk earlier, the reason people are afraid to take risks is because they took a risk at one point in their life and it didn't go well. It backfired. And and the the body, the nervous system inherently, has to come up with ⁓ some kind of block, right? Yeah. Some kind and then there's a belief

system around that block. That it's obscured. It's not because ⁓ I'm scared. That's the belief system. It's because either it's not even a viable option. Like it's not even in the radar as a possible option. Or if you really ask someone, it's it's weak or pathetic or right, it's not strong. It's vulnerable, even though it's a hard thing to do. Right. What's the definition of ⁓ what's the definition of of courage? Definition of courage. Doing something even though it is a challenge. Yeah. That's my definition, but yeah. Exactly. That's perfect. So if being vulnerable is a challenge, yeah, that takes courage. How could doing something that takes courage be weak? But in people's heads, if they've been told, Boys don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about. Or even not explicitly, consciously, just ignored for any kind of vulnerability, like neglected, space for it, no time. They're busy. What is a what is a child supposed to think? Around their their feelings. The things that are most important to them, right? Their body is telling you something. Ignore it for it. What kind of belief system can you form around that if if no one's giving you space to share? It's not safe to share. But they don't see it as it's my parent or partner. They they have to go, there's something wrong with me, with my feeling, with experiencing this. And then I have to find a way to to deal with it on my own or other drugs or other means to cope with. when it comes up again. But with that says I can't go to someone else. Mm-hmm. With the the statement that you mentioned a few few minutes back, I'm just par paraphrasing in the why about the vulnerability wheel and talking about, you know, it is one of the most difficult things to do. And yet, you know, and yet it can produce a lot of positive results. It's not easy. It's not easy to be vulnerable. Especially when, you know, you probably have been vulnerable at one point in time and it probably backfired, be it in your childhood or be it with your partner, or be it in a previous relationship. Right. And that's where people to guard them, to safeguard them, they put up a wall or they bring up the defenses. That's right. It's no different than any other fear or phobia. If you fell off a swing as a child, you'd be a fr and and you almost died, cracked your head open, would you get on a swing again later in life? Or if you or if you were almost drowned as a kid. Getting back in the pool if you didn't overcome that at some point in time, yeah. You've survived without getting back in a pool, right? And your brain's gonna say the only w reason I survived is because I stayed away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a p an old appendage. It's like a a belly button or or, you know, male nipples. Like these are appendages, not evolutionary appendages, but emotional appendages. Yeah. After everything you have seen in your work, what gives you hope about people? I've never lost hope about people. I see change every day. So I've never regardless of what's going on on the outside in the microcosm of of my work, I see change happening every day. I was just to add to that, yesterday I was ava having a conversation with somebody and I was telling them humans always surprise me as a therapist. Humans have always surprised me. We feel okay, this change is not going to happen, then like there's a change, a beautiful change that comes in. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well I've said it best, I think like we all have this inner healer that wants to actualize. That's true. And it could be, you know, it can have cobwebs around that inner healer and all these different ways of coping, like I discussed. But that inner healer is always there, trying to come to the surface. Even in times where we're in survival mode and barely just holding on, that inner healer is still there. It just might be quieter, but it's still there. Still there. Yeah. Yeah. If you could teach one emotional skill to everyone in the world, I think you know the answer to it, but if you could teach, what would it be and why? I think I know the answer you're gonna say, but you know what? Well, because you said that I'll come up with something different. Do you want me to get do you want me to tell you what I'm gonna say? Because you said you think you know what it is, I'll come up with something a little different. Okay. The the s the most important emotional skill to have. I think I think it's it's if we're talking again in relationships in particular, whether it be it with with romantic relationships or with your kids, I think it's it's It's doing inner work. And by that I mean whatever inner work, whatever blocks you have, it will show up in all your relationships. So any work you can do that, you know, allows you to heal the older wounds, the blocks you have, that closes you up from connecting with other people, that disconnects you from other people, that creates rifts between you and other people, these are all blocks, right? It's It's really easy because our senses, they all point outwards, right? Our ears go out, our eyes go out, our nose goes out, our mouth goes out, our touch goes out. So our attention's always out by default. So we we we jump to that person did that thing to me. They're the problem, right? But we're pointing our attention to the thing we have no control over. So inner work means pointing the attention to what is it about me. that I can take from the situation, from this pain, the where I can have some shifts in my life. Yeah. And and also that that baby steps lead how how do how do people learn to walk? It all babies start with baby steps. That might mean leaning over and right, like crawling. All baby steps count towards being able to eventually stand up and walk and run and jump and climb and soar. Yeah. Good to Talk with you today. We should be connecting again for the next episode. This ⁓ second episode. Looking forward to talking with you more about therapy, human relationships, ever-changing human relationships. And we'll talk more about in the next podcast. We'll talk more about polyamorous relationship and many other aspects we'll be bringing it up. So ⁓ thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you.