Captain Zero: Turning Pain into Power ✨의 전체 녹취록

um, The Purpose of Power, uh-Alicia Garza. 31 00:06:03.164 --> 00:06:10.384 Um, you know, there's some Palestine books by Marc Lamont Hill, uh, where he really clarifies the, uh, conflict that's going on with Palestine. 32 00:06:10.444 --> 00:06:19.704 So just tap in any way that you can, please, 'cause we're gonna need each and every body to beat fascism, basically. 33 00:06:19.804 --> 00:06:31.564 Um, all right, so I want to make sure that I make plenty of room, uh, towards the end of the conversation for, um, you know, me and Aaron Lang to really break things down. So 34 00:06:32.964 --> 00:06:48.164 I am going to go ahead and get this party started and get our interview going. Let me see. Um, let me... Wait, let me... Let, let me remove myself. Let's see. Y'all know, so I'm doing producer too. 35 00:06:48.244 --> 00:06:59.184 I'm, I'm, I'm being producer live and putting all these things on the screen at the same time. So I'm gonna go ahead and get this interview going. Video file. I'm gonna go to Z. 36 00:07:00.124 --> 00:07:14.604 And here we go with, uh, my conversation with Z Cheramie. You know, and I hope I, I... You gonna see, I'm gonna try to pronounce that a couple times in this interview. Here we go. Well, Pride continues. Happy Pride. 37 00:07:14.964 --> 00:07:31.204 Thank you for joining me now, Z. Now, Z- Mm-hmm... I, I wanna say your last name too, but you say it... I haven't got- [laughs] I just ain't got it down quite yet with the, you know- With the French R... the French R. 38 00:07:31.284 --> 00:07:44.544 Yeah. So can you tell the people, say your name. Cheramie. Cheramie. Mm-hmm. I did, I did..., did I do- Cheramie. Cheramie. Close. Close. Close. Earlier. [laughs] Okay, I'll practice. [laughs] I'm gonna practice. 39 00:07:44.964 --> 00:08:00.544 Thank you for joining me now. Thank you so much for having me. No opportunity wasted. I, I am so glad that I actually was able to make it here to New York. This is our first time actually meeting in person. 40 00:08:00.554 --> 00:08:12.544 In person, yeah. Well, not this very moment- Mm-hmm... but this trip was our first time meeting in person, and I just have to say, first of all, thank you to Daniella, who told me that I could not miss this moment. 41 00:08:12.564 --> 00:08:25.004 Mm-hmm. As somebody who's been one of your, on your team as an EP and voicing two of the characters, you know, when we've done this work, that's the best part is being there to, you know, experience- Yeah... 42 00:08:25.044 --> 00:08:36.283 the presentation of it all. But honestly, as a Black trans woman, as a Black creator- Yeah... we know that these budgets be tight. You know what I'm saying? I know I didn't have it in my personal budget. 43 00:08:36.424 --> 00:08:46.084 I know we didn't have it in the budget to be doing all the things. I was just like, "I'ma chill." Yeah. "I'ma chill at home and just, you know, celebrate." But she told me no. Mm. She was like, "You need to be there." 44 00:08:46.244 --> 00:08:56.194 And so it is because of her that I was able to actually make this moment happen and be here and celebrate with you, so I'm glad that I could do that. I'm so glad we got that opportunity. 45 00:08:56.264 --> 00:08:57.964 Also, thank you Daniella, so much. 46 00:08:58.024 --> 00:09:06.984 Um, I definitely wanna take some time apart to tell you thank you individually, but no, like, having you there, being able to share and experience that moment with you, I mean, the fact that, like... 47 00:09:07.024 --> 00:09:13.664 I mean, outside of Keith, 'cause I know he had obligations. He's the busiest man in the world next to, like, Keke Palmer. Like- Mm-hmm... they are always doing things. 48 00:09:13.674 --> 00:09:23.704 [laughs] He's, he's talking about Keith David because Keith David, the amazing actor- Mm... such a voice. Oh. When you hear his voice, you automatically know it. So recognizable. 49 00:09:23.724 --> 00:09:34.264 So that's why in voice animation, you know, it, it was such a blessing to have him. So okay, I want you to tell the people though, I want you to tell the people, we're gonna go back a little bit. Mm-hmm. 50 00:09:34.304 --> 00:09:44.784 We're gonna rewind back a little bit. Actually, even before me, before I came onto this project- Mm-hmm... because you've been working on this story for a long time. A decade. 51 00:09:44.884 --> 00:09:54.204 A- It make, September 26th will make 10 years. 10 years. Mm-hmm. Can you tell the people what inspired you to start with this story? 52 00:09:55.004 --> 00:10:07.144 So the initial conception of Captain Zero, uh, really came from a depressive episode that I almost lost. I was, this was 2015. I had just moved to Orlando. I'd been living in Florida my entire life. 53 00:10:07.184 --> 00:10:17.004 Just moved to Orlando for college. I went to the College of Full Sail University. This is maybe three months in, and I fell into one of the worst depressive episodes I'd had at the time. 54 00:10:17.084 --> 00:10:20.044 Um, a year prior, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder. 55 00:10:20.184 --> 00:10:27.914 Um, and again, there was no one in my immediate circle, no friends, no family members that even knew where to start the conversation about my mental health. 56 00:10:28.384 --> 00:10:38.704 Eh, like, also growing up, like, being Caribbean, you know, both of my parents Haitian, it was like, "You're sad? What is, what is that? Why? I, I don't understand." Yeah. Um, so 57 00:10:40.064 --> 00:10:45.374 when I had, you know, that really, really bad depressive episode, it felt like it was just, like, a compounding things that were happening. 58 00:10:45.394 --> 00:10:52.344 It was, you know, moving away in this new place, venturing out, still trying to figure out who I am as a person. That was, like, the first time I got, like, my nose pierced. 59 00:10:52.724 --> 00:11:01.203 Like, uh, there were just so many, all these, these new things that were happening, and a lot of it was

just, like, scary and challenging at the time. Um, and I fell into a really, really bad depressive episode. 60 00:11:01.264 --> 00:11:05.014 And I remember I was, like, in my living room, I was bawling my eyes out. 61 00:11:05.034 --> 00:11:17.684 I was, like, in the fetal position, and I remember when I got up off the ground, I remember to the table to the left of me, there was a stack of paper and a pencil, and then I remember in my bathroom there were a bunch of razor blades 'cause I, you know, cut my own hair. 62 00:11:18.334 --> 00:11:23.984 And I remember thinking to myself in that moment, like, I have two options. It literally felt like a, a fork in the road. 63 00:11:24.324 --> 00:11:30.404 I could go down this path that's maybe something that's constructive, or I could go out on this other path, something that's destructive. 64 00:11:30.884 --> 00:11:37.944 And ultimately, the more I, I sat with myself and the things that I was feeling, I realized more than anything what I felt was, was voiceless. 65 00:11:38.584 --> 00:11:45.144 I felt like, again, there was just no one that understood me, and I wanted so desperately to be understood. So 66 00:11:46.424 --> 00:11:53.224 I decided to take, you know, the pencil and the paper and instead try to transmute what it was that I was feeling into something that could be tangible. 67 00:11:53.264 --> 00:12:05.384 So the initial conception of Captain Zero was really just supposed to be about my senior year in high school, being diagnosed with major depressive disorder, and navigating that as, like, you know, a Black masked person. 68 00:12:05.464 --> 00:12:08.884 That was the basis of what the show was supposed to be about. 69 00:12:08.964 --> 00:12:22.538 Um, but then throughout, like, that night, again, I just started thinking about all of my, you know, other influences, things that I loved, superheroes, comic books, all those kinds of things, and I was like, "Wait, what if I made, like, this narrative about, like, this superhero?"That was dealing with depression. 70 00:12:22.578 --> 00:12:33.488 'Cause that was something, again, I had never seen before, and I thought about what an interesting concept that would be. Um, and then yeah, within a few hours I had drawn the very first image of Captain Zero. Wow. 71 00:12:33.558 --> 00:12:44.288 And I came up with that name, Captain Zero, 'cause again I just thought it would be such a great juxtaposition, like captain being this, you know, name of a high-ranking military officer, but zero meaning nothing and nobody. 72 00:12:44.408 --> 00:12:55.388 So it's like you're the captain of the nothings, of the nobodies. Mm. So that was, you know, where the initial conception of the, the show came about. Wow. Like, and that's incredible that you... 73 00:12:55.528 --> 00:13:12.008 I, I don't know what it was about you connecting depression and mental health and sort of the struggle that we've had as Black people- Mm... 74 00:13:12.088 --> 00:13:29.448 to be in

environments that could help us understand and access these things. It just seems so wild that you revealed the weight- Mm... that so many of us are under with Black excellence. Yeah. 75 00:13:29.528 --> 00:13:39.008 You know, this, this thing that weighs us down that we're trying to live up to when we find out that Black excellence is a scam- Yeah... because there's so much white mediocrity out there. Yeah. 76 00:13:39.068 --> 00:13:52.418 [laughs] You know what I'm saying? But so many times myself, you know, I come from a lineage of people who have done amazing things 'cause they had to. Yeah. 'Cause they had to. Mm-hmm. 77 00:13:52.868 --> 00:14:06.408 But when you said there's a line that sticks out to me in this whole series. Mm. You know what line I'm talking about. I know the line. [laughs] What, what's the line? Who's going to save me when I need saving? 78 00:14:08.228 --> 00:14:21.708 Who's gonna save me when I need saving? Do you know? For some reason I thought I had some unlimited supply of privilege 'cause I was pretty. I thought it would, the pretty would take me to the bank or something. 79 00:14:21.718 --> 00:14:34.448 [laughs] I don't know. But like, I thought I had all this privilege, and so I was ignoring my own needs so much and just pouring into, you know, just serving community and doing the things and- Mm... and what have you. 80 00:14:34.588 --> 00:14:49.428 And then time, after a while I started chipping away at my own sort of like I, I'm exhausted. Yeah. Um, we're dealing with this for so long and seeing change and then a pushback. Mm. 81 00:14:50.028 --> 00:15:00.208 And then I also suffer the consequences of being the one who steps out there and then gets beat down and have my livelihood taken from me- Yeah... and certain things and what have you. 82 00:15:00.728 --> 00:15:14.488 And all of a sudden I find myself in need. Yeah. I find myself in need of community, of support, of all these things, and looked up and had to ask myself the same question: "Who's gonna save me when I need saving?" 83 00:15:15.528 --> 00:15:31.888 But for me, that answer was community. Mm. Because the reality is I have been in community for so long with people. Mm. And so community pretty much was begging me at this point, "Let us show up for you." Mm. 84 00:15:32.268 --> 00:15:41.058 You've shown up for community in all these different ways. Please, let me show up for you. And I had to break myself down to be able to accept the support and the help. 85 00:15:42.328 --> 00:15:52.328 Sometimes we gotta feel like we can do it all ourselves, and so coming onto this project, you saw it was an immediate yes from me. Yeah, which is crazy 'cause the story. 86 00:15:52.338 --> 00:16:03.708 [laughs] Tell, tell the people, tell the people how we, how, how you got me onto the project. So again, like the wildest thing ever. Like i- literally any time someone asks me, like, "How did you get Angelica Ross? 87 00:16:03.748 --> 00:16:12.808 How did you get Keith David?" I'm like, "I can tell you the story of how it happened, but this is not a average, normal story." Right. But literally because, because of Twitter. 88 00:16:13.088 --> 00:16:26.588 Like, so when I write all of my characters, I always write with a specific actor in mind. So this was around like s- late 2018, 2019, and I'm watching Pose. 89 00:16:27.328 --> 00:16:38.608 And I see you in it as Candy, and I'm like, "My goodness." Like, I am just completely blown away. I'm enamored with you- Thank you... as a human being. Thank you. 90 00:16:38.808 --> 00:16:47.008 So then I always knew that I wanted, you know, a trans character in Captain Zero, and I'd already, you know, had, you know, some basic kind of things. 91 00:16:47.088 --> 00:16:55.348 But once I had saw Pose, I was like, oh no, like I found, I found, I found the character. I found their voice, I found their identity, I found everything, and I just started writing and going crazy. 92 00:16:55.368 --> 00:17:02.428 And again for me, I'm a... So art was really the main thing that I started with. So before I write anything I always draw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 93 00:17:02.468 --> 00:17:13.628 So I drew Oblivion and what Oblivion looked like, and I made the basis of what that character looked like literally designed off of you. So one day randomly- She's gorgeous. I mean, absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. 94 00:17:13.668 --> 00:17:26.618 [laughs] So one day randomly I just like make a tweet and I'm like, "Hey, uh, I made this character for this show and I think this would be amazing," because again the goal of this show is to show the intersections of all Black experiences. 95 00:17:26.988 --> 00:17:36.428 Very often, especially in media pertaining to Black people, we'll get some Black people or certain parts of the community, but we're not really showing Blackness as a whole. Absolutely. 96 00:17:36.448 --> 00:17:45.648 And I feel that Black people and Blackness is so multifaceted, and I was like, "There's this character that I think would just be like so great to kind of really help break this particular barrier. 97 00:17:45.768 --> 00:17:55.728 I would love if you did the voice," and I tagged you in it, and it was just a, a complete shot in the dark. I just made that tweet, I posted the picture, and then I like went to bed. [laughs] And then I woke up 98 00:17:56.828 --> 00:17:59.208 maybe like 40 minutes later. It was probably like the ancestors nudging me. 99 00:17:59.708 --> 00:18:09.828 Uh, and I wake up like 40 minutes later and I'm looking at my, you know, notifications on Twitter, and like instantly I see there's a response, blue check mark, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, what's going on?" 100 00:18:10.108 --> 00:18:18.698 And it's you and you're like, "This looks amazing. I would love to be a part of it. Let me know, uh, let let me know more. I'd love to figure it out." And I'm like, "Yeah, for sure." 101 00:18:18.768 --> 00:18:24.550 And you're like, "Yeah, just, you know, DM me the

information." I was like, "W-So instantly, I send you a message, and I'm sending you all the material. 102 00:18:24.590 --> 00:18:33.760 I'm like, "Here's the scripts, here's the show deck, here's more artwork. Uh, here's a little animatic that we did." I'm just showing you everything that I have at that point, and you went through it. 103 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:40.160 I think it took, like, a couple of hours, then, like, you got back to me and you were like, "This is absolutely amazing. I wanna be a part of this. 104 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:49.840 Like, let me know any and every way I can help get this thing off the ground because this needs to be made, and the story needs to be told." And- Immediately. And then I went to my agents, 'cause you told me 105 00:18:50.880 --> 00:19:03.620 that you wanted Keith David. Keith David. And, well, Keith David is at the same agency as us, you know? And so it's like they were able to connect you with Keith David- Mm-hmm... and he said yes. Yeah. 106 00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:15.040 How does it feel for you to now have this project- Mm... where you've got the Angelica Ross- The Angelica Ross... the Keith David- The Keith David... 107 00:19:15.760 --> 00:19:27.490 in this project, and then we bring it to the space, and you get it accepted to Tribeca. Mm. And you have Whoopi Goldberg- Yeah... curating and selecting our project- And selecting... 108 00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:37.520 to be a part of this thing, and I had to... Look, I saw you as, like, a... I saw the young you- Yeah. [laughs]... standing next to Whoopi and being so, you know, just about this moment. Yeah. 109 00:19:37.560 --> 00:19:48.600 What does it me- what does it mean to you to stand in this reflection of this moment coming from where it began, where you were dealing with this depression- Mm... and to seeing what this has led you to now? 110 00:19:49.420 --> 00:19:55.720 Man, it's so, it's so beautiful. I still feel like I'm, I'm still kind of coming down from the high of that experience. 111 00:19:56.050 --> 00:20:14.700 And even, you know, meeting, you know, connecting with you, even, like, in the, the first, like, virtual interaction I had with, like, Keith, talking to him, like, all the life that he's spoken to me, you, when I talked to you for the very first time we did our interview and all the life that you've spoken to me, I felt like that was honestly that, the validation that I was kind of looking for as an artist. 112 00:20:14.740 --> 00:20:27.920 You know, not that, you know, we should go around seeking external validation, but what that meant to me, because I respected you guys so much, because you guys both come from a very long, illustrious career of all these amazing projects that you've been a part of. 113 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:38.789 So it's like someone f- of that caliber has seen something that I've done, and you don't know me from nowhere, and you've seen what I'm doing. You're like, "No. Yes, you're, you're on the right path."

Absolutely. 114 00:20:38.789 --> 00:20:45.740 "You're doing the right thing." It was, again, for me, it felt like the ultimate validation as an artist, like, "Oh my gosh, you know, you know what? Maybe I am good." 115 00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:53.370 I think it's oftentimes, at least for me, the, that imposter syndrome kind of- Yeah... creeping in of being like, "Well, are you as good as you think you are?" 116 00:20:53.480 --> 00:21:04.020 Like, yeah, you think this draft is good, but, like, is it really? And on this long, 10-year journey that I've been on making Captain Zero, again, like, the version of the script that you saw was draft 134. Right. 117 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:14.340 You know? So it took a long time to get the script and the quality of the story and the characters up to a point where it was like someone could read this for the first time, and it's an instant yes. 118 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:23.280 But I had to deal with all of those nos and all those rejections and all the ghosting, you know- Oh, yes... like reaching out to- Oh, I've been there... people and then just- I've been there, yes... nothing. 119 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:32.120 Yes, yes, yes. You know? So it's Pride Month. Mm. And I think it's no coincidence that we are meeting during Pride Month- Yeah... 120 00:21:32.150 --> 00:21:45.620 that I was doing this show during Pride Month to highlight folks, and I find out, you know what I'm saying? You are in our community. Yes. [laughs] Now, listen, identifying as non-binary, the pronouns are? They/them. 121 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:57.040 They/them are the pronouns. Mm. How did you... 'Cause again, now you've been going through depression. You've gone through these things. How did you make it to a place to be able to embrace your non-binary identity? 122 00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:06.060 So, you know, I feel like it came to a point where I just couldn't not be non-binary [laughs] anymore. 123 00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:22.760 So, uh, something that I've heard in the experience of a lot of people that come out when they're older is the first interactions within people of their community, kind of seeing other people that are already living the life that they would like to live kind of inspires them to be like, "Oh my gosh, like, I could also do the same thing." 124 00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:31.680 But also for me, it was realizing, like, I didn't even know that was an option. I thought the only boxes were, like, male, female, and that's kinda it. 125 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:35.740 That's, that's what I was raised to believe and raised to think, you know? 126 00:22:35.780 --> 00:22:46.500 So it wasn't until I think I was about, like, 16 years old, and I had a friend that was non-binary, and that was the first time I had ever met or engaged with a non-binary person. 127 00:22:46.540 --> 00:22:53.740 And I remember actually the first time they came out to me non-binary, I think my response was, like, terrible. Not that it wasn't accepting. It was

just very ignorant. 128 00:22:53.800 --> 00:23:03.380 Like, I was just like, "I don't, I don't know what that means, but, like, whatever you got going on, cool," which is just like, that's awful. That's terrible. [laughs] I'm sure that was good at the time. I know. 129 00:23:03.710 --> 00:23:11.360 [laughs] Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, but, um, the longer I got to know them, the more it was like, oh, wait a minute, there are all these... 130 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:21.660 All these things that I understand about gender are really just, like, social constructs. Even the way that people present, their, their attire, none of these things are directly tied into who a person actually is. 131 00:23:21.690 --> 00:23:30.360 And again, also realizing that, like, oh, there's more options. There's more than just being this. And it made me go back and reflect to childhood. 132 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:37.460 It made me think about all these instances where, you know, I was called a mama's boy or a crybaby or just overly emotional for a boy. 133 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:43.460 Like, when I was younger, because I've always been an artist my entire life, I was like, "Oh, that's just the artist in me. That's why I'm so sensitive." 134 00:23:43.520 --> 00:23:54.000 [laughs] But, uh, you know, going back after, you know, doing all that knowledge and research, it was like, oh, no, like, there were always things about masculinity that I just never got. 135 00:23:54.060 --> 00:24:03.730 Like, literally outside of the way that I dress, just 'cause this just feels the most comfortable for me, there really isn't a whole lot of things that are very masculine about me. Right. Right. 136 00:24:03.800 --> 00:24:13.510 Like, I don't like manual labor. I've never really been into monster trucks and cars. The things that I do like are all really based on, like, aesthetic beauty. 137 00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:23.490 Like, to me, I think a, a, a Lamborghini Aventador is an amazing car, but not because it's a Lamborghini because the boys. I'm just like, aesthetically, it's one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. Mm-hmm. 138 00:24:23.580 --> 00:24:26.260 So I've always looked at things through that vantage point, through that lens. 139 00:24:26.300 --> 00:24:37.200 And again, there were just so many aspects about things boys would do or things that were normal socialized things for boys to do where I'd be like, "I don't get it. Why y'all doing that? That's weird." Um- So what is... 140 00:24:37.280 --> 00:24:48.792 What... So what does non-binary mean to you?So non-binariness to me means the freedom to be and exist as I am as a person. You know, it's one of the reasons why I changed my name. 141 00:24:48.852 --> 00:24:59.792 I'm like, "I want my name to be reflective and indicative of who I am," and again, like singular letter. Like, I don't even want it to be like a full other name. Like singular letter, like being. I am just Z. 142 00:25:00.252 --> 00:25:09.652 That, that is what I am. Mm-hmm. How I show up, the how I, you know, engage with people, you know, the way that I show love for my community, these are all the things that I want people to remember about me. 143 00:25:09.692 --> 00:25:16.492 You know, not, you know, what my sexual orientation is or who I choose as a partner. I just want to be and exist as a person. 144 00:25:16.992 --> 00:25:24.972 Another part of, you know, finally coming out as non-binary was it, it finally got to a place where it just felt like I just couldn't pretend to be a man anymore. 145 00:25:25.492 --> 00:25:35.372 Like, uh, you know, the more that I was learning about these things, the more that I was, you know, engaging more with my community, the more I was like, "Oh my gosh, like there's this whole other side of existence, of being that I didn't even know about." 146 00:25:35.652 --> 00:25:44.492 So for like a good probably from the ages of like starting at like 22, I knew I was a non-binary person, but I didn't tell anyone- Wow... 147 00:25:44.532 --> 00:25:55.312 I was a non-binary person, and most of that had to do with the response of other people. I was like, "What are they gonna say? They've known me their whole life as a man. What are my friends gonna say? 148 00:25:55.392 --> 00:26:01.512 Like, what's my mom gonna say? Like, ah, and I'm gonna tell them all to call me a new name? Like, that's gonna be weird. It's gonna be uncomfortable." 149 00:26:01.562 --> 00:26:07.752 And so much of it was, again, predicated on how will other people feel about how I exist. Right. 150 00:26:07.792 --> 00:26:17.432 But it eventually got to a point where it was like people would say my deadname, and it's like I started to get a physical, visceral reaction to it. And I was like, "That doesn't feel right. 151 00:26:17.892 --> 00:26:26.832 That doesn't feel right," every single time people would say it because that name, again, to me was associated with everything- Masculinity... that was the pretending of that version of me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 152 00:26:26.852 --> 00:26:32.472 And I was like, "I, I don't wanna pretend anymore." And it got to the point where the mask was so heavy it was like, "I can't keep carrying this." 153 00:26:32.772 --> 00:26:40.792 So it just got to the point where one day randomly in my group chat with all my friends, I was like, "Hey, you guys, so I'm non-binary. If you got questions, here's the Google definition of what it means. 154 00:26:41.252 --> 00:26:50.372 I'm open to have a conversation if you guys wanna talk and learn more about it, but like this is me. This is who I am. What's up? We still friends or, or what?" 155 00:26:50.811 --> 00:26:57.632 And to my surprise, all of them except for one, who we're no longer friends no more, [laughs] were like, "You know, 156 00:26:58.832 --> 00:27:09.112 I'm not sure I understand everything about this, but I love you, and I wanna be there for you, and I'm committed to doing the work to understanding you." Wow. And yeah. So I was

like, "What? 157 00:27:09.152 --> 00:27:18.131 Oh my God, my friends are amazing." Not only your friends, your sister- My sister, yeah... is amazing too. Looks just like you, child. Yeah. Y'all look just alike. That's what everyone says. 158 00:27:18.252 --> 00:27:27.242 [laughs] But seeing your sister there- Mm-hmm... um, supporting you was so amazing. And then also getting to meet so much of the rest of the team- Mm-hmm... 159 00:27:27.242 --> 00:27:41.152 and folks that have been there for so long helping you write these stories. Mm-hmm. Can you talk about, um, your team and just like, 'cause one of the things, um, I am so proud of- Mm... 160 00:27:41.172 --> 00:27:52.362 is like in the animation team- Mm... Cutting Edge. Mm. Like, didn't they work on, um, another animation series that I really love? Didn't folks work on? 161 00:27:53.332 --> 00:28:01.062 I mean, uh, we had a couple of our animators that we've worked with worked on a few different things. On a few things. Yeah. Uh, didn't we have a few people that worked on Invincible? Yes. Yeah, yeah. 162 00:28:01.572 --> 00:28:12.732 So we us- when I tell you I saw, sat in that theater gagging. [laughs] You know, you sent me the, the scenes and the different things or whatever, but I haven't seen it- Mm... in the whole thing together. 163 00:28:13.142 --> 00:28:29.772 All put together. So when I was seeing it all together, I was like... And I'm telling you, in that moment I was enjoying myself. Mm. But I was also, "Oh my goodness, this is gonna be huge. This is... 164 00:28:29.832 --> 00:28:37.472 Oh my God, Whoopi's can't stop talking about it." And like, you know, all the... I just saw everything happening in that moment. Mm. 165 00:28:39.372 --> 00:28:50.912 Talk to me about the different people and how you were able to pull together a team with such talented animators and, uh, and co-writers that you work with. Mm. Yeah. Um, I guess first I'll start with Andre. 166 00:28:50.972 --> 00:29:02.772 Andre's my vice president, also my co-writer, co-director. Um, he's who I met in Full Sail, uh, who like about three months after I'd made Captain Zero, I met him, and we started working together. 167 00:29:02.852 --> 00:29:11.192 Uh, the brief version of how we met is basically we were in a script writing class together, and both of us thought we were the best script writers- [laughs]... in that class. 168 00:29:11.672 --> 00:29:20.032 Uh, and then we heard the other one go up and deliver their pitch, and we were like, "Hold up, wait a minute. I might have some competition." Wow. Um, and it was my [laughs] idea to essentially be like, you know what? 169 00:29:20.412 --> 00:29:30.372 I feel like if I don't work with this guy, I'm gonna spend my entire career looking over my shoulder to be seeing what he's doing. So you know what? Instead of doing that, let's just work together. [laughs] Wow. 170 00:29:30.532 --> 00:29:40.512 And I feel like, you know, instead of being two individual really good filmmakers, we kind of come together, and we make one great filmmaker. I love that because so many times people are focused on the individual route. 171 00:29:40.592 --> 00:29:51.102 Mm. And you guys have been working together for how long now? 10 years. 10 years. And y- Yeah... and, uh, let the people know, Captain Zero, that ain't it. I mean... Oh, no. Oh, no, no. We have so much more. 172 00:29:51.132 --> 00:29:57.112 I mean, we, you don't have to tell them everything, man. Yeah. [laughs] But we know that we got a lot of projects in the works. A lot of projects. So that's Andre. 173 00:29:57.212 --> 00:30:04.512 Then, you know, we have our CMO, our chief marketing officer, who's also- Oh, she's amazing... she's amazing. Queen is absolutely wonderful, absolutely wonderful. They're also my partner. 174 00:30:05.092 --> 00:30:13.282 Um, oh my goodness, like a- again, I came to- Are they non-binary as well? Well, well, she, she goes by she, her. Oh, she, okay. Yeah, 'cause I mean- 'Cause I, I just wanna make sure I'm getting- I got it. I got it. 175 00:30:13.282 --> 00:30:18.192 I got it. 'Cause I, I love, I love them, and I wanna make sure I respect them as they like to be identified. I got you. I got you. We get... No, she goes by she, her. 176 00:30:18.272 --> 00:30:28.632 But yeah, no, um, like Queen is just, just absolutely phenomenal. Like her mind, especially when it comes to like marketing, like the ideas that she has. She also comes from an artist graphic designer background. 177 00:30:28.892 --> 00:30:35.202 She's also currently in school right now to be an art therapist. So it's actually kind of crazy how so many different parts of our world intersect. That's so beautiful. 178 00:30:35.202 --> 00:30:47.452 It's like I'm making a show about mental health and therapy, and my partner is studying to become [laughs] an art therapist. So yeah, no, Queen is absolutely amazing. Then you have, uh, Chris Carther. He's our, our COO. 179 00:30:47.952 --> 00:30:53.972 Um, he's another, again, super phenomenal person. Came in... He's the main reason why we even made a part two. 180 00:30:54.252 --> 00:31:03.552 I wasn't even thinking about making a part two until Chris randomly hit me up in an Instagram DM, was like, "Oh my gosh, I saw part one." Well, at the time it was just the regular version. Right, right, right. 181 00:31:03.632 --> 00:31:10.192 Um, but he was like, "Oh my gosh, like I saw part one, and this was like so cool. It resonated with me so much. It ends on a cliffhanger. Have you ever thought about making a part two? 182 00:31:10.232 --> 00:31:20.008 And if you do, I've got like $8,000 for you." And I was like, "Uh-I wasn't at first, but now you've piqued my interest. Um, and then that, that relationship was able to develop and blossom there. 183 00:31:20.028 --> 00:31:32.068 But he's great, amazing human being. That's D'Italian. He's our CFO. He came in actually just a couple of months ago because he's the reason why we finished the

short film. 'Cause we actually ran out of money- Baby... 184 00:31:32.188 --> 00:31:39.558 in, what was that? The early of January. Was doing GoFundMes, selling merch, doing all the things. Oh my God, we were doing all the things. Yeah. 185 00:31:39.558 --> 00:31:48.168 Like, we had that initial Kickstarter we raised, the goal was thirty-five thousand. We raised thirty-six, and we were like, "Oh my gosh, we got it. Okay, cool. Off, off to the races." 186 00:31:48.628 --> 00:31:53.308 Um, and then as is with all animation, animation is very expensive. Very. 187 00:31:53.448 --> 00:32:04.228 Um, and something that we do at Cutting Edge Animation that's not common is, again, we pay above what the traditional rate is for what most animators get paid, especially working on an indie level. 188 00:32:04.488 --> 00:32:14.628 Because for me, I'm like, you know, everything I want to be ethical, you know, our unofficial official slogan is, "Cutting edge, never cutting corners." Yes. So I'm just like, I don't want to... 189 00:32:14.808 --> 00:32:22.678 I- if my goal is to differentiate myself from these other major studios, I wanna make sure that everything we're doing, including our practices and how we pay people, compensate people, is different. 190 00:32:23.148 --> 00:32:30.848 So we end up running outta money [laughs] in January, and we ended up raising, uh, starting another, a secondary Kickstarter. 191 00:32:31.308 --> 00:32:40.448 Um, we, funny enough, did not raise the goal that we wanted for that secondary Kickstarter, but D'Italian actually saw that Kickstarter, messaged me on Instagram. 192 00:32:40.488 --> 00:32:47.628 Again, I don't know what it is about Instagram and financial opportunities, but for some reason they seem to find me on Instagram. Yes. Um, saw our Kickstarter, messaged me. 193 00:32:47.648 --> 00:32:55.648 He was like, "Hey, I saw the highest tier that you guys have to donate is five hundred dollars, but I wanna give y'all way more than that. I think this is, like, amazing. I would love to be a part of it." 194 00:32:55.968 --> 00:33:03.098 We hop on a phone call, we have a conversation, and it felt like in that one conversation that we had, it's like I feel like I've known this guy, like, my whole life. Mm. 195 00:33:03.108 --> 00:33:12.058 You feel like the older brother that I've always wanted. Um, I told him what our deficit was, and he was like, "All right." Like, I know because again, like, you know, Black people [laughs] and what it's... 196 00:33:12.128 --> 00:33:20.938 I was like, for me, I'm always like, I've always had to deal with the bare minimum. So I'm like, "If you just give me the base, I'll make it work." But D'Italian was like, "No." I know. I know. 197 00:33:20.968 --> 00:33:29.668 Like, "Tell me what you really need. I know this is the base, but tell me what you really need." I told him that number and he was like, "Bet. No problem. Give me two weeks and I, and I'll give it to you." 198 00:33:30.148 --> 00:33:39.088 So Chris is the reason we started, D'Italian is the reason that we finished. Oh. You know? So, you know, he came through. Then we have Lori, our executive assistant. She's absolutely wonderful. 199 00:33:39.568 --> 00:33:45.868 Uh, they help me with all of the things that I... Because me, my ADHD, I can scatterbrain. Me too. Me too. So [laughs] Don't, don't... 200 00:33:45.888 --> 00:33:51.288 Listen, listen, that's another, ugh, ADHD, but, but it is also a superpower as a superhero. Yeah. Yes. Yes. 201 00:33:51.328 --> 00:34:06.568 Well, I have to say, I have to say thank you just so much for having the courage, um, to make it through your own challenges. Thank you. Having the courage to speak up, having the courage to speak out and ask- Mm... 202 00:34:06.578 --> 00:34:16.977 for Angelica Rose. Yeah. And get the ball rolling and all these things because we are here now because of you- Yeah... and these moments. I can't, I cannot wait for us to work on the movie. The movie. 203 00:34:17.028 --> 00:34:30.868 On the feature film. Yes. Y'all, we are working on a feature film, so we still need your support, so please still s-stay tuned. Yeah. Now, I do wanna, uh, will I be able to, like, play a little clip? Oh yeah. 204 00:34:30.958 --> 00:34:34.817 Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little clip for the people? For sure. Now that we got Rebecca out the way, for sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah, no, we can show the full trailer. 205 00:34:34.817 --> 00:34:47.537 So we gonna play a little clip for you so you can just see how amazing Captain Z is as we come out of this interview. So again, thank you so much. Happy Pride. Welcome to the family. Thank you so much for having me. 206 00:34:47.537 --> 00:34:56.398 Happy Pride. And please, um, you know, like I told you, we are in this together. Mm. Uh, as a Black trans woman, you know, my pockets don't run as deep, you know, all the time and you know da, da, da. 207 00:34:56.468 --> 00:35:07.208 But I bring what, everything that I bring. Mm-hmm. And you know I will work and use everything that I have. So when we need something, look, you know, we gonna, we gonna get it together. Likewise. Likewise. 208 00:35:07.228 --> 00:35:24.308 No, thank you. Thank you so much, Z. Happy Pride. Thank you. Happy Pride. [laughs] We'll be right back. [upbeat music] What's wrong, hero? [tense music] Walls closing in around you? 209 00:35:28.108 --> 00:35:33.727 Hope fading? [dramatic music] Darkness overtaking? 210 00:35:36.228 --> 00:35:50.168 [laughs] You can feel it, can't you? 211 00:35:53.788 --> 00:35:55.988 The despair setting in. 212 00:35:59.228 --> 00:36:16.948 [dramatic music] Oh, shh. Don't try and fight it. Just sit back 213 00:36:17.888 --> 00:36:20.908 and sink into the abyss. 214 00:36:22.507 --> 00:36:44.248 [laughs] Baby, baby. 215 00:36:44.918 --> 00:36:57.068 I can't wait for y'all to see Captain Zero. We are doing private screenings across the country right now. We just did one in Washington, DC. We got Chicago

coming up August 24th, I believe. 216 00:36:57.108 --> 00:37:14.608 You might wanna check the Instagram to double check on that. Um, follow, uh, Captain Zero. T-A-S I think is the handle. Also Z Cheraimy is, uh, Z-C-H-E-R-A-I-M-E. Make sure you follow along for all the good stuff. 217 00:37:15.288 --> 00:37:19.728 Um, thank you again, Z, for, uh, including me in on this amazing project. 218 00:37:19.808 --> 00:37:37.932 Thank you again for sharing your brilliance and, um, coming onto the Now Podcast.Um, this definitely opens up the door, uh, to continue our conversation because there's somebody named Zee, also spelled Z-E-E, um, who is 219 00:37:39.032 --> 00:37:49.912 said enough with the conversation and then said, "Of course, their partner is AFAB," and then said, "I'm sick of the games." 220 00:37:50.392 --> 00:38:05.262 So [laughs] so we are going to dive into it 'cause I, I think I understand where you're coming from and what you're talking about. We're going to tap into this a little, uh, a bit, uh, deeper here. Um, I... 221 00:38:05.321 --> 00:38:11.172 And in order to do that, I basically am bringing on a powerhouse. 222 00:38:11.452 --> 00:38:23.852 Um, Erin Lane is a Black Oh- Ohio-born powerhouse, um, who is part cultural critic, part creative visionary. 223 00:38:23.952 --> 00:38:40.932 Uh, she's made it her life's work to uplift the lives and legacies of Black transgender women, from organizing the first ever National Day of Action for Black Trans Women, to hosting the Emmy-nominated PBS series, First Person. 224 00:38:41.472 --> 00:38:48.452 Erin brings heart, history, and heat to every stage she steps on. 225 00:38:48.512 --> 00:39:01.952 She sparks the conversation at the White House, created a viral digital series with Anne Hathaway, and helped launch groundbreaking initiatives like the Illuminations Grant and institutions like the Marsha P. 226 00:39:02.172 --> 00:39:10.212 Johnson Institute. Whether she's behind the mic, in front of a camera, or writing the blueprint for liberation, Ms. 227 00:39:10.272 --> 00:39:27.652 Lane is here to shake the table, to tell the truth, and to remind us all of the beauty in Black trans brilliance. Please welcome to NOW, Erin Lane. Erin, how are you? 228 00:39:27.672 --> 00:39:32.852 Hello, hello everybody. I'm good. Let me get in. I feel like I'm not in- Yes... in the workspace. 229 00:39:33.252 --> 00:39:45.622 Li- listen- But- Zee already- But- Zee already knows that they done started something, so we, we 'bout to [laughs] I was gonna say, this was a setup from the door. [laughs] You know, part of me said, you know, I... 230 00:39:45.672 --> 00:39:52.542 As I was, like, choosing which interview was going to be played, you know, tonight- Okay... I was like, "This is perfect." Oh, my. 231 00:39:52.592 --> 00:40:03.012 This is perfect for me to play, uh, you know, and to show another, uh, you know, um, embodiment of non-binary. But- Right... 232 00:40:03.022 --> 00:40:12.272 there is some confusion, there's a lot of confusion, uh, both in the community and outside the community when we're talking about trans, when we're talking about non-binary. 233 00:40:12.412 --> 00:40:26.352 I think there's some tension, uh, between, you know, trans, uh, like, trans folks who have medically and socially transitioned, and those who identify as non-binary and who have not either, uh, medically or socially transitioned. 234 00:40:26.932 --> 00:40:36.732 And, uh, you know, obviously this became very apparent when, uh, we saw Laverne Cox's accountability conversation and panel- Right... with the girls. 235 00:40:36.812 --> 00:40:49.912 And in my opinion, it definitely should have been, uh, all trans women for that first Waiting to Exhale conversation. Right. You know, t- uh, because here's... 236 00:40:49.932 --> 00:41:01.592 Like, I wanna start this off by sharing a story with you all, and y'all might be like, "What does that got to do with anything?" But I promise you- [laughs]... that it's gonna connect. So 237 00:41:02.892 --> 00:41:25.652 I went to this, uh, this cruise called Summit at the Sea, and it was basically this, like, special situation where they were bringing together a lot of, like, a lot of wealthy people, um, really, and it was mostly f- that kind of thing every year where they were coming together to discuss different ideas and what have you. 238 00:41:25.692 --> 00:41:35.932 But I think the person who was programming it that year wanted to really shake things up. So they b- invited me, Tiq Milan, Gina Rosero, Dream Hampton, Patrice Colors. 239 00:41:35.992 --> 00:41:42.232 Like, we were all there talking about Black Lives Matter, we were talking about Trans Lives Matter. We were talking about, like, all of the things. 240 00:41:42.992 --> 00:41:50.492 And what I realized in that situation, and this is, uh, you know, this doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I will say that- Nothing like that... 241 00:41:50.512 --> 00:42:00.252 but I will say that, you know, I had a great time and, you know, there w- there was just men all, you know, trying to hit on me in these spaces, and I didn't have a chance in... 242 00:42:00.482 --> 00:42:11.192 'Cause, you know, it was night, the music's playing, we're all, like, hav- you know, good time. I didn't have a chance in this moment to, like, disclose that I was trans to this guy that was trying to dance with me. Mm. 243 00:42:11.312 --> 00:42:21.092 And then all of a sudden he's, like, you know, sticking his tongue down my throat. And I'm like, "Oh!" You know? Like, and I didn't even have a chance to, like... I did not have a chance to disclose. 244 00:42:21.832 --> 00:42:31.092 So, you know, I was like, "Oh, hey, you know, let's pull, let me, you know, pull you to the side." You know, we had this conversation. And he was, like, freaked out, highly upset, all these different things, whatever. 245 00:42:31.232 --> 00:42:42.452 Oh. I then end up meeting this other guy who, it just,

like, who just almost erased that enti- entire situation and just grabbed my hand and never let it go until the next morning. 246 00:42:42.512 --> 00:42:52.672 Like, we were just, like, uh, connected. Same night? The same night. Okay. The same night. This- You were hanging on Angela, girl... the same night. No, listen, I was just da- Like, no, but this guy, like, he... 247 00:42:52.712 --> 00:43:02.372 Like, it was great. Anyway, so we're in this area and we're talking with a bunch of friends, and I meet this, uh, beautiful African woman, and she's, like, telling me about... 248 00:43:03.392 --> 00:43:33.031 We're talk- we're having all these conversations just about random stuff, and I was just talk- uh, talking about me being an artist and how, you know, I was always jealous of the white kids in my town coming up because every time I visited their home, they would have a piano in their house, and I played piano from ear, you know, by ear on this little Casio keyboard, but I, we didn't, we couldn't afford a piano, so I would have to, like, stay after school to play the piano. 249 00:43:33.152 --> 00:43:39.012 You know? Um, and I just felt like as an artist it would've been so much-Better if I had a piano in the house. 250 00:43:39.852 --> 00:43:54.562 And this woman told me, she said, "Angelica," she's like, "but you have to understand, it was your determination to make your way to the piano- Come on... even though you did not have one- Come on... 251 00:43:54.592 --> 00:44:09.901 that made you an artist. Just having a piano in the house does not make you an artist." Okay. Baby. So- You good? So, so I, I wanna connect the dots a little bit- [laughs]... 252 00:44:09.932 --> 00:44:25.122 because what I think is happening here is as trans people, we have been trying to make room and create room for everyone to feel welcome, and everyone to feel like they're not trapped in this binary of, you know, gender and all these different things. 253 00:44:25.952 --> 00:44:47.792 And in doing so, um, I think that it's added sometimes a little confusion, because we say that non-binary people are under the trans umbrella, and when we say that, we also sometimes say in shorthand non-binary is also trans, right? 254 00:44:47.992 --> 00:45:04.432 And so that instead of... When we say that, people think trans women, trans men, trans people, and they don't necessarily think trans the umbrella term. And so I know that there are a lot of trans women specifically 255 00:45:05.452 --> 00:45:20.962 who are looking at folks like, "I... Now, I know you damn lying to me." [laughs] That I have risked my life- Hello... uh, w- uh, socially transitioning, looking awkward in this dress, l- uh- Oh... 256 00:45:20.962 --> 00:45:34.092 looking awkward at first in my makeup or in this, uh, wig that wasn't, uh, the best priced wig. You know what I'm saying? We couldn't get the good stuff right away. You know? Drawing on mustaches and goatees, you know. 257 00:45:34.172 --> 00:45:49.452 Tweezing and having to do electrolysis and getting zapped, and like o- o- one thing that women, one thing that women know and we always say is beauty knows no pain, girls. Is because men, cisgender men, 258 00:45:50.872 --> 00:45:58.721 we see videos of them even experience the smallest amount of pain that women go through to beautify when they wax their chest or do certain things. 259 00:45:58.822 --> 00:46:12.152 So I say, and I'm gonna kick this off to you as well, and I see that, uh, Brianna, no, no, I've... The girls have joined the chat. So- Okay. Hi, girl... so [laughs] g- the girls have joined the chat. 260 00:46:12.212 --> 00:46:21.012 And so because the joi- girls have joined the chat, I want to make sure that y'all have this number, because Aaron and I are gonna kick this off and start to get to talking. 261 00:46:21.492 --> 00:46:31.892 But you can text me at 1-888-991-2946, and I'll text you back with the studio link so you can join this conversation with us live. 262 00:46:32.292 --> 00:46:40.612 So matter of fact, as I'm saying that right now, I'm gonna open a window right now so that I can see the text message window as they roll in. 263 00:46:42.552 --> 00:46:52.872 Um, we're gonna keep this conversation respectful and all the different things, but we are going to get down to the nitty-gritty. Um- She's been saying that to me. That's not even for y'all. [laughs] Wait, who? 264 00:46:52.972 --> 00:47:05.292 Wait, wait. [laughs] I was gonna... You've been saying that to me to keep me out my, uh, feelings and shit for- I am, I, I am saying that to Aaron, absolutely to, uh, because Aaron be airing it out. It's cool. 265 00:47:05.372 --> 00:47:11.162 Uh, Aaron be airing it out. So you know, I'm, I'm kicking it off to you because basically to say that 266 00:47:12.612 --> 00:47:38.012 I think that I- also this might have been, and I might be tapping into some more murky territory, but I think that this also might have been the issue initially that some women, cisgender women, may have had with their understanding of trans women, and thinking that, "Do you understand what it means to walk and be a woman in this world? 267 00:47:38.092 --> 00:47:50.212 Like, you just can't, uh, wake up one day and call yourself a, a woman." You know, in this, in a sense. And I kind of understand what they're saying. Um, somebody's... 268 00:47:50.272 --> 00:48:01.752 Oh, I think somebody's calling that number right now. Do not call that number. Please just text that number, and I will text you with that link of our- They said, "We have thought. We have feedback." 269 00:48:01.772 --> 00:48:15.072 Baby, they said, "We have thoughts. We have feedback." [laughs] So I, I, I kinda understand in the sense that you don't know, like we didn't know- Mm-hmm... until we walked out the door- Baby... 270 00:48:15.152 --> 00:48:23.252 and were read as women in the world what this was really gonna be. Mm-hmm. And I'ma tell you right now, I have felt 271

00:48:24.352 --> 00:48:43.152 left out by my mother in the sense of there's so much that I could've learned from my mother if she would've accepted me as a trans woman and passed down to me the wisdom and the warnings that I would've needed dating cisgender straight-identified men. 272 00:48:43.392 --> 00:48:44.072 Mm. 273 00:48:44.132 --> 00:48:56.452 And so it is through that day in and day out, getting up every day, not, not taking it off, not deciding today I'm not gonna do it 'cause I don't wanna deal with the pressure or I don't wanna deal with the heat of society. 274 00:48:56.792 --> 00:49:11.682 We know right now that there are people who detransition because of the heat. Mm-hmm. Because of how hot the heat can get. It's enough just being human in this world and trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents. 275 00:49:12.092 --> 00:49:21.812 Now you wanna be trans too? [laughs] But the people who are trans women and trans men like that, we, we... 276 00:49:21.832 --> 00:49:32.332 The, the argument that we be having a lot is that we don't have a ch- this ain't a ch- I know y'all think it's a choice. Mm-hmm. But the choice for me is life and death. It's not about what to wear today. Yeah. 277 00:49:32.852 --> 00:49:46.492 What do you, what, what, what are your comments on that? Okay. Um-[laughs] For starters, thank you for having me, Angelica. Um, I'm still kind of on Captain Zero. I love Invincible. 278 00:49:46.952 --> 00:50:00.492 I love superhero stuff, so I'm really excited- Yes... to that. Um, I was really excited seeing the clip, and y'all got Keith David, so I just wanna say shout out to y'all. And sorry to Z, um, 279 00:50:01.512 --> 00:50:08.812 ahead of time for what I'm going to say. [laughs] Oh, dear. Um, because- Yes. [laughs] It's really all love. 280 00:50:08.972 --> 00:50:22.232 I think what I have to say about non-binary identity is I don't know if I still would categorize non-binary identity as we know it today as trans. 281 00:50:22.352 --> 00:50:39.892 Um, and I think even over the years, I have moved away from trans as an identifier for myself because I do feel like because of all the work that was done, like you mentioned, the door has been left open, and I'm not interested in it getting twisted. 282 00:50:40.352 --> 00:50:52.412 I think when we talk about people being able to take things on and... Uh, take things off and put things back on, I agree. The price of admission for being who you are is gagging in the world. 283 00:50:52.872 --> 00:51:06.832 I was saying, you know, a lot of... And I hate to use Z as an example, um, but I don't exactly get the point, I think, of some people's, um, identifying as non-binary. 284 00:51:07.172 --> 00:51:31.852 I think for Black people, Black masculine people, or Black people who are read as men, I think it's really powerful that people identify as men and be as flowery or as interested in aesthetic beauty, you know, as they want to be because men are human beings, and human beings have a wide range of expression and emotions and feelings. 285 00:51:32.292 --> 00:51:41.252 Um, I think over the past maybe five, six years, um, the... 286 00:51:41.492 --> 00:51:57.592 how slippery this conversation is has allowed a lot of people who are not fucking trans, um, to take up a lot of space in a conversation that they actually don't know anything about, and that was something I saw. 287 00:51:57.692 --> 00:52:08.972 Not anything about, but they don't understand the depths of, of the plight and of the walk. And I also, just a little history piece, I think, um, when I'm... 288 00:52:09.232 --> 00:52:26.992 when we're talking about Olay and friends and how she played, um, because there was a narrative about Da'Shaun, um, who was the non-binary panelist for that conversation, and my focus was never on Da'Shaun, even though I didn't feel like Da'Shaun needed to be there. 289 00:52:27.032 --> 00:52:40.112 Right. Um, my focus was on Olay, um, as a woman who dates men, as a Black woman who has some fucking sense and would like to date a man who has some fucking sense. 290 00:52:40.172 --> 00:52:53.791 She has had to stray from Black people, just like Laverne and just like even Dominique and Kat mentioned in that same conversation. Um, but back to my letting the door, leaving the door open. 291 00:52:53.992 --> 00:52:57.912 I swear they're connected, just- I know it is. I'm with you... um, 292 00:52:58.812 --> 00:53:15.892 so over the past maybe five or six year- maybe, maybe seven, seven or eight years, because the non-binary conversation is so slippery, um, when we say, "That nigga is a nigga, that's not... This is not nobody non-binary. 293 00:53:15.932 --> 00:53:29.332 What are y'all talking about?" Like, there is nothing in this person's life that speaks to them shifting socially, um, or even personally, physically. There's none of that there. 294 00:53:29.852 --> 00:53:45.072 Um, so what ends up happening is these people and their theoretical genders end up silencing trans people who are like, "Hold on a second. That doesn't make sense to us," or, "That doesn't align with us." 295 00:53:45.152 --> 00:53:52.372 Then it's, "How are y'all telling me I'm also a trans person?" Right. "Now y'all are actually being transphobic." 296 00:53:52.812 --> 00:54:15.832 And then how that connects back to Olay's ass playing a game is it's almost like you bring a non-binary person into a space, a non-binary person that I'm sure maybe was called sir or ma'am or whatever on their way over there and did not stop to correct anybody because they didn't need to. 297 00:54:15.932 --> 00:54:36.232 Um, you bring one of those people into the space with trans people who have risks, like you said, um, have risks being beaten up, um, have risks being just ridiculed, you know, have risks losing housing, have risks losing access to healthcare and access to work. 298 00:54:36.372 --> 00:54:49.992 Um, you bring these people in, and when those people say something,

it's, "Y'all are transphobic," because if y'all just wanna say y'all are women, because this is the... This is what's not being said, right? 299 00:54:50.112 --> 00:55:04.551 What's not being said is all of us are full of shit. So when we say, "Y'all are full of shit," cis people get to be like, "Now hold on, bitch. Y'all all playing make believe in my motherfucking face." 300 00:55:04.672 --> 00:55:20.132 [laughs] "Y'all all just some niggas." So Olay, on her call, was like, "As a cis, I don't think cis people need to say anything about this." And I'm like, Da'Shaun has a beautiful, glistening beard. Where, 301 00:55:21.352 --> 00:55:35.212 where in your mind does this call full of Black women, you see Da'Shaun in this conversation- Well, and, and, and I-... but you don't see us out? And I, and I wanna tap into that because- Mm-hmm... 302 00:55:35.232 --> 00:55:46.652 I, I agree with you, too, that-Olay saying you know, it's not her place, cis people, blah, blah, blah, she carry for that tr- yes, because what she- She doesn't... 303 00:55:46.732 --> 00:55:55.442 I think, I think what she unintentionally did was did another separation between Black and cis, Black trans and cis women. Mm-hmm. 304 00:55:55.462 --> 00:56:01.152 Because this was actually the conversation that could show th- how we were much more alike than we are different. Yeah. 305 00:56:01.252 --> 00:56:18.912 She could've chimed in even more, uh, actually then DaShawn, on the, in the sense that as, like you just said, as a Black cis woman d- having, looking for options and dating so- Black cis men and having to go outside of her race even though she doesn't want to, but she's like doing that to look for love- Mm... 306 00:56:18.952 --> 00:56:32.672 that was very valuable for that conversation. But I think what some of the disrespect that was felt from certain people, myself included, about some of w- the way that was done, is that people, people... 307 00:56:32.772 --> 00:56:47.032 I said this before on the last, uh, line, but people s- people get so wrapped up in the theory of transness, and they are not enough, don't know enough about the practical. Mm. Because- They don't care... 308 00:56:47.092 --> 00:56:58.172 because DaShawn, you could tell me a lot about the theory a- about all of this, because I was p- I was picking up a lot of what you're talking about about desire and all these different things, but you can't tell me shit 309 00:56:59.152 --> 00:57:14.012 about the practical of being a Black trans woman. Yep. So like being trans is one thing as an umbrella thing, but you literally can't tell me shit about the practical side of being a trans woman. Mm-hmm. And so therefore 310 00:57:15.192 --> 00:57:22.372 I felt offended, a- and again, not in the way of like just like, uh, oh my God, you know. But, but the offense for me- Mm... 311 00:57:22.452 --> 00:57:38.762 is in the continual experience of Black trans women, uh, being provided with someone who's supposed to know better than them, somebody who's brought in as the expert, as the academic, as the medical expert, all these things. 312 00:57:38.832 --> 00:57:53.952 So we have had to navigate so many hoops to access, uh, hormone therapy, to access certain things, to go through someone who tells us that they know better than us what our journey su- should be. So much so- Mm... 313 00:57:53.982 --> 00:58:04.312 that a way, that the way that a lot of this started out, that medical complex actually screwed some people up. Mm. Because they were trying to tell you, "This is point A and point B. 314 00:58:04.412 --> 00:58:15.312 Being trans means you start here, and then you're going to transition," when that wasn't the thing for everybody. Mm. When trans people needed to learn how to listen to their intuition. 315 00:58:15.672 --> 00:58:29.112 This trans thing was, this, this thing needed to be about the pr- practical more than it is theory, and the people who are actually going through the things are the people who are the writers of the, of, of the actual theory. 316 00:58:29.312 --> 00:58:29.422 Mm. 317 00:58:29.452 --> 00:58:44.752 The academia only comes but so close, and I thought it was just kind of a, it was a interesting disrespectful thing to put this person in a place that made it th- seem like they are, again, of a different identity than these trans women- Yeah... 318 00:58:44.812 --> 00:58:56.532 who is now telling Laverne what she needs to know is truth, and telling her about her experience as a, a, I thought it was just so- Let's call you a victim. DaShawn carry. 319 00:58:58.031 --> 00:59:15.572 [laughs] Because s- because the thing is, I'm just not sure that you could call... Laverne is being, I think Laverne is being as transparent as she could be. Uh- Laverne is selling tickets also. [laughs] Let's be clear. 320 00:59:15.652 --> 00:59:25.452 I mean, listen. I hate to cut you off, Angelica. Oh, you're not. You're not. But there's no opportunity but, so I can't- [laughs]... opportunity to say something while you're saying this right now. 321 00:59:25.972 --> 00:59:36.012 But Laverne is trying to sell tickets, okay? Laverne don't care, for real, what none of those bitches think. 322 00:59:36.072 --> 00:59:44.172 Laverne, when was the last, and this is no shade to Mother Laverne, when's the last viral moment Laverne had, you know? 323 00:59:44.212 --> 01:00:01.392 The trans ship, the ship has sailed, and I think one thing about this conversation and so many of the conversations we're having is we've tried all of the, "Everybody has an identity. Everybody's identity is valid. 324 01:00:02.092 --> 01:00:08.572 Everybody has a piece of the pie and a stake in the conversation." We tried that shit. It didn't work. Uh-huh. 325 01:00:08.792 --> 01:00:29.132 Now we are under a motherfucking fascist, blatantly, let me say blatantly fasc- fascist regime, and trans people, people specifically who go after medical and social transition, are one of the primary

targets of this fucking administration. 326 01:00:29.632 --> 01:00:45.112 So for me, some of this stuff is, we can just cut the shit. [laughs] Like- Abso- Laverne- Absolutely... can sell. Laverne is as accountable as she is to getting more work, like most of us are. 327 01:00:45.512 --> 01:01:01.432 Like she dates white dudes, and one thing I'm not gonna do is pretend that there is like, are there white people that are not racist? Like, are there white people that are not anti- Okay, wait. Wait. 328 01:01:01.472 --> 01:01:08.562 Let's, let's, let's not, let's le- le- I know you wasn't leaving that as a rhetorical question. Uh-huh. But I do wanna, I do wanna hop on that question. Okay, please. 329 01:01:08.562 --> 01:01:26.432 I wanna hop on that question, because I, I, I think people do need to understand this. Are all white people racist? Yes. Yes. [laughs] The answer [laughs], the answer is yes. Now the- Absolutely... 330 01:01:26.472 --> 01:01:38.942 now the, the longer answer and adding something into that is that b- because of the world that we are raised in, whiteness starts out the way that it is until you interrogate it. Mm-hmm. 331 01:01:39.392 --> 01:01:56.122 So basically i- here's a, it's like this. Are all people ableist? Yes. YesWe live in a society that is ableist. I am ableist AF, and I am disabled. Ha- Hell yeah... okay? 332 01:01:56.802 --> 01:02:10.242 So be- disabled people internalize, we all can internalize these things, but I just wanted to tap on that question real quick because if, because Laverne also is someone who knows that. Right. 333 01:02:11.062 --> 01:02:18.022 So for her to know that if a, a, all white people are sus- Mm... 334 01:02:18.082 --> 01:02:29.982 un- until they let you know or the, until they are pro- showing that they are interrogating their whiteness, and you're telling- Do you think it was race play? I don't think it was race play. The re- [laughs] 335 01:02:30.182 --> 01:02:35.272 I, the reason why I don't think it was race play, 'cause I don't, I don't see Laverne getting down like that. I really don't. 336 01:02:35.462 --> 01:02:46.022 I just think that Laverne, I, th- [laughs] This is why I didn't wanna initially have the conversation because I thought Laverne was playing a little bit in the sense that- Yeah... 337 01:02:46.062 --> 01:02:56.902 why are you having this conversation publicly? Because if I'm gonna be on that panel and we have that conversation publicly, you might end up mad at me. Mm-hmm. Because I'm not coming to play. 338 01:02:57.642 --> 01:03:04.542 I'm not coming to just fluff pillows and stuff. Mm. So Laverne and I have had, had certain of these conversations. 339 01:03:04.602 --> 01:03:18.622 Laverne recently was featured on a podcast, High Key, and she said on that podcast how she realized that, um, she was groomed to, uh, make white people, uh, to, um, 340 01:03:20.282 --> 01:03:31.682 you know, make white people feel good or, you know what I'm saying, like to, to, to cater to whiteness growing up in the space, in these programs or whatever. And the thing is, is I think I... 341 01:03:31.742 --> 01:03:46.222 So there's this, like, this small room for human behavior, and I'll say that because I'll say, like, I also grew up, uh, in a space where I was in the gifted and talented, and I was surrounded by white kids in my, uh, class. 342 01:03:46.762 --> 01:03:57.202 You know, I also, I think I also internalized a value of whiteness- Mm-hmm... growing up. We all did, you know? 343 01:03:57.781 --> 01:04:10.202 And so there was a point of when I was 25, you know, and I was dating this man, um, and I spoke about this in the o- uh, the last thing, and people were like, "Oh, somebody said Angelica's just trying to prove she can tell a worse story than Laverne." 344 01:04:10.212 --> 01:04:20.842 [laughs] Because I, because, because I always talk about me being in a relationship for eight years with this white man. But he was not a cop. Mm. He was not a Republican, and he was not a MAGA person. 345 01:04:21.282 --> 01:04:27.602 He was one of those well-meaning white people, and this is what I need y'all to under- 346 01:04:28.522 --> 01:04:37.122 But- This is what I need y'all to understand is that, folks, that's why Michelle Williams also I think ended up divorcing her husband at one point- Oh... 347 01:04:37.142 --> 01:04:48.442 is because when we're on the surface with white people, especially well-meaning white people, then we just on the surface. They're not being overtly racist about certain things. They even got Black friends. Right. 348 01:04:48.542 --> 01:05:08.082 But it comes down to when you really get to know somebody and their underlying beliefs and the, how those beliefs can be anti-Black, which is ra- but it's, so anti-Black is a part of racism, but it's like, it's just something that is more, can be more unconscious and subconscious than sometimes overt racism, so that's the way that went. 349 01:05:08.202 --> 01:05:17.322 I wanna also bring on somebody onto the stage. I don't know who this is. Hey, girl. Wait. I'ma see- Oh... uh, wait. Is she, is she still there? Uh, yeah, I, I think she's, uh, the Queen Tulsa. Are you still there? 350 01:05:17.402 --> 01:05:29.972 Do you wanna jump on real quick? So we gonna bring her on. We gonna be, uh, do a three-way here. Yeah. Ooh, a three-way. Hey, sis. What? [laughs] Kai kai. [laughs] Hi. How you doing, ladies? How are you doing? Good. 351 01:05:29.982 --> 01:05:42.862 How are you? Hi, everyone. Yes, my name is Queen Tulsa, and, um- Thank you for joining us... yes, I'm based out of, uh, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yes. Um, I really appreciate you ladies' views. 352 01:05:43.322 --> 01:05:53.062 And what was your na- I know Miss Angelica. What was your name? I'm Aaron Lane. Miss Aaron Lane, okay. Yes. Yeah, I just wanted to come up here and join in wherever y'all let me go in. Yes. 353 01:05:53.142 --> 01:06:04.882 Well, listen, I, I wanna get your, your feedback on, like,

how are you feeling about, uh, sort of the gray line between, uh, folks, trans people who have faced- Face-... 354 01:06:04.921 --> 01:06:16.062 the challenge of whether it is, you know, walking in the hood as a trans woman or whether that is facing the medical industrial complex that thinks you're crazy, you know, all these different things. 355 01:06:16.202 --> 01:06:30.282 What do you say about the sort of spectrum between trans and non-binary folks? Well, I'm glad that you asked that question. Um, I'm here in Oklahoma. It's a Republican state. Uh, I went to the DMV. 356 01:06:30.322 --> 01:06:46.892 I'll give you an example. I went to the DMV. I got, applied for a driver's license, uh, a renewal in December, didn't get it. One in June, uh, or, uh, April, didn't get it. I went there on June 4th. 357 01:06:47.002 --> 01:07:02.422 It was a whole situation. Um, they did, they s- s- saw me trans. It alerted them. They felt like, you know, they... I don't know. It was one woman. She just felt a certain type of way. 358 01:07:02.932 --> 01:07:18.642 I go back today to pick up my driver's license, and, um, they're asking me for my name change paper. My name has been changed for o- since 2018. Um... 359 01:07:18.662 --> 01:07:34.222 [sighs] They're asking you to reproduce documents that you already produced. Reproduce documents, and it's like, it's a mockery. Now you wanna bring up my dead name. Now you want to really verify who this is. 360 01:07:34.382 --> 01:07:47.762 Oh, it could be fraud, this, that, or there, but no, you wanna be nosy. Um, we're looked at as, like, experiments. You know? Like, the guys look at us like fetishes. 361 01:07:48.402 --> 01:08:00.094 Um, if we happen to be attractive woman in a relationship- Right... people are gonna give you the side eye because they'reSome, not all, because how is this man got everything 362 01:08:01.154 --> 01:08:08.334 and I'm still over here chasing down my baby daddy? Right, right, right, right. You know what I'm saying? 363 01:08:08.454 --> 01:08:17.094 And, and, and they, they, they, you know, because people are told if you go down this road, if you do this, whether you're in church or this thing, that you're supposed to experience hell. 364 01:08:18.254 --> 01:08:24.624 And when you don't and you're starting to experience a little bit of heaven, they're wondering, um, did they re- are they reading the wrong Bible? 365 01:08:24.704 --> 01:08:35.594 'Cause they, they think told them that they were supposed to, uh, receive the kingdom and everything else, and they getting beat on by the man who's supposed to be claiming that they're his king, that they're their kings. 366 01:08:35.654 --> 01:08:44.514 Um- The girls are getting beat on too now, y'all. What's that? I said, the girls are getting beat on too now, y'all. The... Well, that's what I'm saying. No, the girl- Uh, uh- We, we are... That's what I'm saying. We... 367 01:08:44.594 --> 01:08:54.354 No, we are... What I'm saying is that, like,

this, this worrying about- We're all getting beat on. Like, w- we talking about community, heterosexual women- Everybody... transsexual women. 368 01:08:54.794 --> 01:09:02.474 Men are, if they have that in them, they're gonna put their hands on you. Listen- So it affects us all, and women- So wait, wait, listen to, listen to this. 369 01:09:02.554 --> 01:09:06.384 So this is where it comes down to, 'cause I think this is where we're about to get into it a little bit. Okay. 370 01:09:06.384 --> 01:09:16.634 'Cause I, I see this person's comment where they're saying, YouTube academia, and again, academia, is saying, uh, to s- replying to someone saying they should read more gender studies. 371 01:09:16.734 --> 01:09:26.994 Lived experience is not enough to speak politically correct on these subjects. I- And this is what us as trans women are trying to tell- I don't- You said, what's that? I don't fully disagree with that. 372 01:09:27.494 --> 01:09:40.854 Um- I, I don't disagree that we, that reading gender studies is a good thing to do, but, and I don't, I don't, I don't disagree that, uh, lived experience alone- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... but it is an assumption- Right... 373 01:09:40.894 --> 01:09:45.154 to assume that Black trans women are not well-read. Right. 374 01:09:45.434 --> 01:09:59.434 That, and that was a huge part of that conversation, the idea that between those women, there wasn't enough scholarship or understanding about desire to really, really dig into it, you know? 375 01:09:59.884 --> 01:10:07.044 I think when we talk about women and gender studies versus... People don't, I mean, people don't even believe the experiences of the girls. 376 01:10:07.914 --> 01:10:21.294 You could literally say, "I walk out the house, I fucking twerk with men, I fucking kiss and date and whatever, and nobody ever knows." And people are like, "Nigga, please. Get out of here." 377 01:10:21.654 --> 01:10:31.874 No matter how beautiful you are or whatever, people just don't wanna believe it. Um, I lost my train of thought. I didn't even know how to, y'all. No, no, no, you good. But I wanna also... 378 01:10:31.924 --> 01:10:35.264 Okay, so 'cause we're breaking this down in a couple different ways. I remember now. 379 01:10:35.274 --> 01:10:49.494 So I, I want to, you know, we believe in expansive gender liberation, but we just have to talk about, we gotta talk about how the labor of trans people has been co-opted or overshadowed. Erased. 380 01:10:50.394 --> 01:10:54.174 Like the a- a- erase, yeah. And that, listen- You're right... 381 01:10:54.184 --> 01:11:03.614 uh, and so what we're saying in a, in a situation is, 'cause someone was, uh, uh, commenting that maybe, that they were thinking that, you know, Da'Shaun wasn't taking up too much space and authority. 382 01:11:03.634 --> 01:11:18.834 But the thing is, is that, uh, you're talking to trans women, and well, the thing that is, is that when trans women are telling you what their experience is and what they're feeling, how is it that our experience gets pushed to the back in this? 383 01:11:19.434 --> 01:11:30.954 And all of a sudden, I saw trans women, you know, and I get it that Quay, Quay definitely owed Da'Shaun an apology. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause she was, she was a little bit out of pocket. 384 01:11:31.014 --> 01:11:37.274 I think she was, I think she was rude, I will say that, to say the least. Right, right, right, right. I know she was trying to be a comedian, but there were d- she was being a little rude. 385 01:11:37.584 --> 01:11:51.894 And, um, so I think that she should've apologized, but me then seeing, uh, videos of Hope, Giselle, and other folks apologizing, I'm like, "Now, why are the trans women all of a sudden now apologizing for a space that should've been centering them in the first place?" 386 01:11:52.834 --> 01:12:10.654 I, yeah. I think, I just think we have lost the plot severely, um, because for me, that conversation, as interesting as the conversation was, it feels, [laughs] 387 01:12:11.154 --> 01:12:21.814 y'all know that clip of Monique, like, "Is this who we are? Is this what we stand for?" That is kind of what the whole dialogue kind of feels like to me. 388 01:12:21.834 --> 01:12:36.434 Because again, when we talk about the labor being erased, what we're really talking about was, it was like a multiple prong attack, you know, on systemic transphobia. 389 01:12:36.894 --> 01:12:50.814 It was targeting government, it was targeting healthcare, it was targeting us interpersonally, it was also targeting representation. That was to literally save our lives. 390 01:12:51.414 --> 01:13:08.534 When I started, um, being in movement work, organizing, what have you, we were begging people to understand that Black trans people were facing a literal genocide in the United States. 391 01:13:08.634 --> 01:13:18.554 It wasn't just about, "I know so much about this. You all need to be educated on it." 392 01:13:18.694 --> 01:13:35.814 It was literally, we are able to be denied every single part of the American dream because of who we are. Like, getting fired literally just for being trans. You could be doing a great job. 393 01:13:36.374 --> 01:13:49.154 Being denied housing literally just because you're trans. You could have the money and the credit score. So when we talk about this separation, I don't think it's gray. I think it's, it's Black. 394 01:13:49.294 --> 01:13:59.326 It's two different things. And I, I posted a video on my Instagram where I said-I think trans people are non-binary, period. Right? 395 01:13:59.786 --> 01:14:10.366 Because the binary, when we talk about the binary- And you know that people, you know that some people have that, think it's the completely the opposite. No. Absolutely. They think that we as trans people are meant to... 396 01:14:10.536 --> 01:14:20.866 That we're trans 'cause, that we're trying to gravitate, that they think that we want to be binary. Uh, I g- I mean, like-

Well, they- I get- But some of us do, you know? Yes, yes, yes. Some of us do. 397 01:14:20.946 --> 01:14:38.446 I think, I think the thing for me, and this is what I think people use against, um, people like us who are able to have a really full conversation about all of this, it's complicated. It is extremely complicated. 398 01:14:38.766 --> 01:14:51.286 It is extremely murky. Like, so it's not just a, people don't wanna be binary. People do want to be binary. People are binary and will live that way. 399 01:14:51.666 --> 01:15:01.226 But my thing is to believe in the gender binary, to believe in the gender binary is to believe you cannot manipulate it. 400 01:15:02.426 --> 01:15:18.626 You cannot believe that the gender binary is a real thing and believe that you can manipulate it. Right. Right. Most people are trying to survive in a world that is not built for them. 401 01:15:19.046 --> 01:15:36.366 So I get offended at people who, you know, I said, I was like, "Even the bitch you see walking down the street with the three strands of hair dyed rainbow color in the ill-fitting dress, honey, in the, in the fucking little girl-ass book bag, 402 01:15:37.286 --> 01:15:50.846 that bitch is risking something to be out there." The cost of admission is gagging, okay? You don't- I love that you said that. I, I... You know what? Erin, I'ma need you to go ahead and put that on a T-shirt. 403 01:15:50.906 --> 01:16:01.326 I'ma need you to, to, uh- What? The cost of admission is gagging? [laughs] Yes. You need to go ahead and put that on a T-shirt, and put your name, Erin Lane, the pro- 'Cause it's true. Yes, yes. It's true. You have to... 404 01:16:02.546 --> 01:16:14.386 All you're doing is taking up space and shutting up trans people who really embody and live this life if you haven't paid the price of admission. 405 01:16:14.726 --> 01:16:27.545 It is not enough for you to say, "People get confused about my gender," or whatever, "so I wanna relinquish my gender," and then y'all have to... It's not enough for me. Because people like Boy George exist. 406 01:16:27.746 --> 01:16:39.306 People like Grace Jones exist. People like Michael fucking Jackson exist. People like Prince exist. Non-binary people have been around forever. 407 01:16:39.646 --> 01:16:57.286 What our fight was, was to secure our ability to literally live. Yes. Literally live. So when- Absolutely... bitches come in trying to throw textbooks and trying to ar- Bitch, I don't give a fuck about none of that shit. 408 01:16:57.366 --> 01:17:05.746 [laughs] I don't give a fuck about it from cis, cis-identified people, and I don't give a fuck about it from non-binary cis people. 409 01:17:05.786 --> 01:17:23.526 Because one thing I also know is that the scholarship that women like us have been able to share, the stories we have been able to put to the forefront, has made space for bitches who have not paid the cost of admission to cartwheel and dance and shit that they don't know. 410 01:17:23.826 --> 01:17:32.736 They don't know the cost of the oil in our alabaster boxes, bitch. Not you. You know, bitch. Bitch. No, I know. Girl, I know. A- a- again- Um, it's-... 411 01:17:32.736 --> 01:17:42.276 I think that some cis folks just are accu- have been accusing us of being, like, ex- trying to be exclusive or transphobic. But what we're really just doing is actually- Yeah, exactly. 412 01:17:42.286 --> 01:17:54.326 What, what we're actually calling for accountability, though, to center those who are most impacted. You know, is, is setting the record straight. Uh, yeah, I, I, I, you know, exclusive, I... 413 01:17:54.426 --> 01:18:03.686 Yes, we're being exclusive in the way of saying we're speaking exclusively to this- Yeah... intersection. You know, that's what we're doing. But we're not trying to exclude anyone. 414 01:18:03.786 --> 01:18:18.496 Just in the ways of, you know, like, even as a woman, like, as a trans woman- Mm-hmm... I know, like I... We're fighting for, for trans and cis women to understand about our shared experiences- Mm... 415 01:18:18.526 --> 01:18:29.186 and those things that really do affect b- all of us. Mm. But there are some conversations that have to deal with cis women that ain't got to deal with me as a trans woman. Yeah. 416 01:18:29.526 --> 01:18:32.706 And I am not trying to take up space in that conversation. 417 01:18:33.266 --> 01:18:43.646 I can be here to support, I can be here to some things, but I can't take up too much, uh, space when we talking about, uh, having babies, or menstruation, or blah, blah, blah. 418 01:18:43.946 --> 01:18:50.886 We might have to add a trans man into that, you know? Or, or, or whatever the case is. But it, it is, it is, I... 419 01:18:51.986 --> 01:19:00.366 That's why I think that some spaces, you know, when we have these conversations about exclusive women's spaces and all these different things, I think people are being a little too obtuse around this. 420 01:19:01.026 --> 01:19:10.566 I think that every identity deserves exclusive space. There, Bl- I think that Bl- There, could, just like we used to do. So let me, let me explain it this way. 421 01:19:10.686 --> 01:19:16.666 I know you, when we used to go to creative chain, creative, creative- Oh, right, right. And we would do the Racial Justice Institute. 422 01:19:17.106 --> 01:19:25.686 And we would start, and it was a all-day thing, where we start in the beginning of the day, and we make sure everybody in the same room, we're all on the same page. There is no such thing as reverse racism. 423 01:19:26.176 --> 01:19:36.766 Racism is a system, and defining, and all these different things. And then we would break into cohorts, where white people, "If this is your first time having this conversation, you go into room A. 424 01:19:37.166 --> 01:19:45.306 Uh, white people, if this is, you've been at this a couple times, you can go to room C," and blah, blah, blah. And Black people, biracial, you know, they

would break it all down into these affinity groups. 425 01:19:45.946 --> 01:19:51.496 And the reason why they did that is so that they could talk freely- Yeah... 426 01:19:51.506 --> 01:20:02.946 without embarrassment, and white people could say all of the racist jokes that they heard when they were growing up, and talk, put it all on the table about, and not have Black... 427 01:20:03.096 --> 01:20:12.586 'Cause you know, it can be triggering for us to sit there and wa- see you recalling your racist stories from your family, and then also maybe not look at you kinda sideways about it, too. So- I'm looking sideways. 428 01:20:12.666 --> 01:20:34.730 Tell me the storySo, you know me, so like pu- fully being able to put all that out and then coming into the greater thing and bringing what we learned and all those things back into the full cohort, I think we can do the same thing here, is, is there are things that like cis women can get together and, you know, have certain things that they get together, but we as, all as women we can get together and all have a c- a different conversation. 429 01:20:34.770 --> 01:20:46.670 It doesn't have to be, but when it comes down to be, uh, to sports and all of these different things, one thing that you're correct about is when it comes to being a trans person, our fight has been about living. 430 01:20:47.390 --> 01:20:58.430 Our fight is literally so that we don't get murdered, that we can have access to healthcare, that we can actually have a job and not get fired from our job because our IDs don't match. There are so many... 431 01:20:58.840 --> 01:21:11.710 I, I can't tell you about how many non-binary queer people I know have great jobs in the LGBTQ- Yeah. Baby... at the, at the LGBTQ centers. You know, they, uh, and again there's- They did us this last day. 432 01:21:11.910 --> 01:21:15.650 I'm the trans, I, I'm feeling the trans quota here, in their lifetime. 433 01:21:15.690 --> 01:21:25.190 And, and, a- and, and, and again, and it pushes trans people out in such a way where it's like how are we being pushed out of rooms that we helped build? 434 01:21:27.410 --> 01:21:42.910 I, I, I wanna bring back on Queen, uh, uh, uh, bring back on Queenie here. Now, I wanted to talk too about... Let me go back to my little, uh, points here. Um, you know, I, I do wanna make it clear though that 435 01:21:44.270 --> 01:21:54.190 gender norms- Mm-hmm... gender rules, they like, they, they hurt all of us. Yeah. They s- they stunt men's emotions. 436 01:21:54.750 --> 01:22:09.790 Um, they, they stunt a lot of things, and, you know, when, when I want people to feel, uh, unburdened by gender- Okay... um, I want men to, uh, to, to embrace their feminine side. 437 01:22:10.490 --> 01:22:17.250 I want women to embrace their more aggressive or masculine, whatever they would consider, you know, masculine sides. 438 01:22:17.370 --> 01:22:27.410 I think us as trans people, we're sent here to kinda help people free their minds,

you know, from these things, but not to co-opt something that is not your experience. 439 01:22:27.830 --> 01:22:35.570 And, and this is when I'm talking about experience, like, our experiences in our bodies are going to be different. 440 01:22:35.810 --> 01:22:48.830 I thought it was so disingenuous of people to think that we are trying to, uh, police gender by the way that Da'Shaun was showing up, you know, with the beard. But the situation is, I, 441 01:22:49.810 --> 01:23:04.090 along with several other people who were, um, like in support of Da'Shaun, were misgendering Da'Shaun while they were referring to Da'Shaun. I accidentally misgendered Da'Shaun bringing them up on a tweet. 442 01:23:04.190 --> 01:23:15.480 Um, then I saw somebody doing... Oh, then we were on this show last week, and Jerome was speaking with, um, with Brianna, and in their rec- recollection of the story, they, uh, said he instead of they. 443 01:23:15.819 --> 01:23:29.750 And it was an accident, but so did, um, another creator on YouTube who was, went to Laverne's show and then ended up saying the same thing. So let's not be obtuse- Mm-hmm... about what we're working through here. 444 01:23:30.010 --> 01:23:46.390 We want to respect people's, um, um, um, you know, pronouns, but the reality is a lot of that is going to, when you're non-binary and cis presenting, this is where I think that maybe Craig, uh, you know, uh, with TS Madison there might have been... 445 01:23:46.520 --> 01:23:58.830 'Cause I, I, I don't see a lot of trans people, uh, trans like people who have medically transitioned and, you know, so I don't see a lot of them beating people up all the time about their pronouns. 446 01:23:58.860 --> 01:24:08.720 Yeah, I mean- Especially- Yeah... es- es- especially when they see that people are trying. Mm. You know, that people are wanna, wanna get it right and blah, blah, blah. But when I tell you I be feeling, 447 01:24:10.050 --> 01:24:19.550 oh, I be sweating bullets sometimes, you know what I'm saying? Because I be messing up all the time with non-binary pronouns when they're cis presenting. 448 01:24:19.610 --> 01:24:27.070 Now, I say that because the way I re- because I'll say someone like Alok, and someone, um, wrote into the chat, "Alok must be stopped." 449 01:24:27.230 --> 01:24:39.580 I don't know what, [laughs] who, what, what that's all about, but I- The highest fairy in king history [laughs]... this, somebody said Alok must be stopped. But the thing is is that the one thing with Alok- Mm... 450 01:24:39.610 --> 01:24:59.700 you know, wearing the dresses and the colorful hair and all this stuff, uh, while also having, you know, all this like body hair coming out of everywhere, you know, what have you, but the thing is at least I understand that this person i- I can say she 'cause she's wearing, I, I think she, she putting in some effort and is go- and is being, and is gagging folks. 451 01:24:59.870 --> 01:25:09.670 Now- Yeah... part of the gag is

about how many of those colors don't go together or those patterns that don't go together, that's part of the gag like sometimes. Like sometimes it be such a visual thing. 452 01:25:09.730 --> 01:25:18.230 Like, I'm just calling out, being for real. Uh- No, it's true. It's true... sometimes it's a visual gag, you know, in those ways. And what I know about Alok is 453 01:25:19.130 --> 01:25:33.140 I think that Alok is brilliant, and I think that they help to strike up conversation that deepens the conversation in the same ways that I think Da'Shaun helps to deepen the conversations. I just think that, 454 01:25:34.410 --> 01:25:52.730 you know, I don't see this now with Alok now, but I know back in the day, back in the day, we were all kinda a little bit, everybody was like tussling between, you know, the trans group and the non-binary 'cause non-binary folks were actually calling trans people out as a problem because we identified s- a lot of us identified more on the binary side. 455 01:25:53.450 --> 01:26:03.239 Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. [laughs] Was there, did you wanna add anything else, Queen Tosa, to the, to the convo? No. I was just gonna excuse myself. 456 01:26:03.310 --> 01:26:12.980 I have waited so long, and I didn't know that this was a two-party conversation, so I'll come back next time. No, no worries. Uh, thank you so much. But, um, so it's- Okay... 457 01:26:12.990 --> 01:26:23.326 and it's basically, it's not like I, you know, you can always jump in onto the things, but what I try to do on here when, just so you guys know when you come on as guests and things like that, um- That's very okayWell, yeah, yeah. 458 01:26:23.356 --> 01:26:34.476 No, but als- but also just I'm gonna pull you on and pull you off at different times just depending on what happens, like when you, uh, you had to step off-screen for a second, you know, I pulled you off and then found the right time to pull you back on, and all the different things. 459 01:26:34.806 --> 01:26:43.346 But feel free to jump in at any time. Uh, Rick says, "Also love me some Alok any day." Yeah, so I, I do love Alok. Right. I think that... 460 01:26:43.406 --> 01:26:53.686 And I think that Alok has brought some beautiful commentary into the space that has really- Right... really helped people think about things. And I also think that Alok seems to, at this time, 461 01:26:55.826 --> 01:27:04.066 I think they seem to navigate the s- the spaces well and not taking up too much space in Black trans conversations. Yes. 462 01:27:04.146 --> 01:27:14.726 But- But also what tends, seems to happen is, and maybe you can tap into this, is it seems like sometimes though also the non-binary folks and the butch queens end up getting the opportunities. 463 01:27:14.866 --> 01:27:24.696 Once the, once the, once the world starts to come on to certain things, it seems as if they might be handed opportunities quicker than the, the girls are. Like, you'll see- Mm-hmm... 464 01:27:24.706 --> 01:27:42.806 like, I know that Leiomy, you know, one of the things that I know that Leiomy mentioned back when, I don't know if it's been, you know, changed or anything like that, but I know that they had an issue with the fact that all this talk with, about the girls and whatever, but the girls aren't at the Renaissance concert. 465 01:27:42.816 --> 01:27:53.086 They're not in... Meaning- Yeah... they're not, they're not being hired as the dancers. They're getting more people who are more in the non-binary space, you know? We know like Honey slays down, you know? 466 01:27:53.166 --> 01:28:01.416 Honey is, uh, uh, just really slays that space up. But also s- we know that Leiomy would've carried it, too. You know what I'm saying? Like, as a- Mm-hmm. 467 01:28:01.426 --> 01:28:12.156 And so why couldn't there also been obviously obvious Black trans women there as well? But, you know, again, we got, we get what we get, you know? Ts Madison's on the track, you know, uh, with, uh, Cozy and- 468 01:28:13.606 --> 01:28:30.566 I- What's that? Look, I'm like, I'm trying not to cut you off. [laughs] No, please do. Please do. You know, Renaissance, for me, um, that one hurt deep for me because I think... 469 01:28:30.866 --> 01:28:46.806 You know, I see a lot of things as symbolic, right? Um, so to me, one thing, I'm so happy for Ts Madison. I love Ts Madison. I would love to kiki with her. She might call me a low-down dirty bitch, but that's okay. 470 01:28:46.986 --> 01:29:03.986 I still love her. But, um, Ts Madison has a certain viewpoint, right? Um, she sees the girls a certain way. And to me, Beyoncé is the type of artist who she doesn't really say things directly. 471 01:29:04.826 --> 01:29:21.886 Um, she indirectly kind of says what she stands for. And to me, Ts Madison is a, a woman that has a, she lives with a very clear distinction between trans women and ci- And cis women, yeah... 472 01:29:21.946 --> 01:29:35.386 to the point that she will kiki at trans women who say they experienced certain things. So to me, I'm like, Beyoncé, in my head, Beyoncé feels similarly, right? 473 01:29:36.066 --> 01:29:43.086 Um, but it hurt me so deep because how could you, 474 01:29:45.086 --> 01:29:58.286 how could you have a whole album about a subculture that was literally pioneered by a Black woman 475 01:29:59.766 --> 01:30:38.646 not being able to get her just due in a white space, like a subculture that was created literally on the backs of fucking white supremacy and anti-Blackness as a response to that, that has lived on to be a space where some of our brightest stars are able to shine, a space where these women were mothers to literal community member, and you can't, even in your fucking remix of Vogue, name one of the girls? 476 01:30:39.966 --> 01:30:45.186 You can't even let Leiomy come out? I know the girls is out of shape, you know? 477 01:30:45.766 --> 01:31:01.406 You couldn't let a girl come out and do a little lazy fucking one, two or something, just for

the simple fact that this whole production comes from Black trans women. And- Well, what did you... Did you think that, um... 478 01:31:01.446 --> 01:31:11.976 What did you think about Black Is King? The reason why I ask that- Mm... I love Black Is King. I thought it was one of her most, uh, just epic projects. Yeah. 479 01:31:11.986 --> 01:31:32.296 But I thought, also similarly, I thought that you went into a niche, uh, of the Blackness, and I felt like the queerness was missing, the tran- Like, the, the fact that we know that we've been here from the beginning of times, even when we talk about the queerness of Africa, did you s- did you see, uh, 480 01:31:33.306 --> 01:31:39.916 that represented in the fabric of it? 'Cause I, I always feel like the conversation is a separate conversation of, like the, like as if- Mm... 481 01:31:39.946 --> 01:31:51.946 Blackness and queerness are mutually exclusive, and not showing that, that sort of that it's- I'm, I'm challenged with that a little bit. Um- I'm asking, I'm asking- Yeah... 'cause that's the... 482 01:31:52.196 --> 01:32:02.346 I j- I just didn't see any queerness in that. That's the one thing I would... I, and I s- I felt like we got a separate project with Renaissance, which was wonderful that, you know, that she gave that flowers to that. 483 01:32:02.376 --> 01:32:12.866 Mm. But again, it was just an illustration of me of when people don't maybe understand the fullness of how those things are, are, go together. Yeah. I think, I think with... 484 01:32:13.386 --> 01:32:29.086 Like, Beyoncé is not queer, not to our knowledge, right? So I don't really expect... I have, like, moved away from kind of expecting... um, people to implant things that they don't really know shit about, you know? 485 01:32:29.606 --> 01:32:42.106 Um, I think that has led a lot of our media astray over the past decade, where, like, And Just Like That was a shit show because they couldn't just be problematic rich white ladies. 486 01:32:42.146 --> 01:32:54.266 They now all of a sudden had to be down with the fucking queers and learning about tran- I don't, I don't need Carrie Bradshaw to know they/them. I don't. I want her talking about shoes and sex. 487 01:32:54.526 --> 01:33:06.246 Like, I don't need that from her, and I think that idea that everything needs to have something for everybody has fucked up just a lot of the- I h- I hear you there... 488 01:33:06.326 --> 01:33:17.766 but I think for Renaissance, that is specifically for and supposed to be in honor of this culture, of these t- of these people. 489 01:33:18.366 --> 01:33:29.726 And I know it's a deliberate decision to leave the girls out because people, people are... And this is piggybacking on Alok and even Da'Shaun. 490 01:33:30.565 --> 01:33:45.406 People are way more comfortable with Alok being non-binary than if I were to walk around and try to say all these things about being non-binary and how everybody is hiding their true self. 491 01:33:45.706 --> 01:33:58.406 People don't wanna hear that from me because people are uncomfortable with the existence of the girls. I can't explain why that is. Um, I'm sure maybe Da'Shaun or Alok could. 492 01:33:58.585 --> 01:34:07.446 [laughs] But I can't, I can't explain why that is, but there is something. People have an acceptable tranny. Ooh, I'm sorry. 493 01:34:07.786 --> 01:34:19.986 People have an acceptable trans person in their head, and it's somebody who they can still be like, "That's a nigga, though," right? Like, you know? That's what they want. They want somebody who is like, "I get it. 494 01:34:20.106 --> 01:34:34.806 When I see you, I see clown. I see whatever. That makes sense." But then we have you, Angelica Ross, looking like you are from Planet, like, Black Beauty, bitch. Thank you. 495 01:34:34.876 --> 01:34:44.406 Like, they don't wanna hear, they don't wanna hear what your experience is because that makes people uncomfortable, the reality of it all. 496 01:34:44.706 --> 01:34:53.386 And I would say- 'Cause the reality of my experience, when I talk to men, the reality of my experience when I meet cisgender men, I... 497 01:34:53.426 --> 01:35:07.765 There's so much I experience, uh, that is, can be shared with cis women who date because they read me that way. And then when I meet them, these men, when I meet them, they button up. 498 01:35:07.836 --> 01:35:21.986 They button up like they button up for any woman that they are trying to, they know they have to work for. Right. They button up until the moment I say that I'm trans. Then they unbutton. Then they unzip. 499 01:35:22.106 --> 01:35:31.955 Oh, nigga, you've been playing with me this whole time. You almost got me. Well, no, then they unzip. Then they wanna do bisexual. Then they wanna just be- Oh, you get literally unzipped like The Matrix... 500 01:35:31.955 --> 01:35:36.446 they literally unzip. Okay. And so what I mean by that is this, is that... 501 01:35:36.735 --> 01:35:49.746 And then, you know, I have these men, I have these conversations with them and I'm like, "So if you found the love of your life and she told you after some time that she was not able to have children 502 01:35:50.686 --> 01:36:01.746 medically and not able to have children as a cis woman, would you break it off with her?" And there were some men, and it b- it just was different. 503 01:36:01.806 --> 01:36:15.026 There were some men who said, "Yes, I need to, I would want to have kids of my own." And there's some men who said, "Well, I guess if you put it that way, um, no, I don't see..." 504 01:36:15.096 --> 01:36:22.086 And, you know, men who don't see women's body parts as just a baby factory and that's the only thing that they're good for, you know, they're like, "Oh, you know what? 505 01:36:22.186 --> 01:36:26.546 Actually, well, maybe we could adop- You know, I, I see what you're saying," that, you know, they see that experience. 506 01:36:27.006 --> 01:36:38.706 And then I also then pull

out of myself, I'm like, "Well, actually, then it's not a uniquely trans experience for me to be rejected because I can't have kids." No. And I can feel... 507 01:36:38.886 --> 01:36:52.446 I, I, I, again, I don't, I can't completely, uh, uh, uh, uh, I can't completely tell you how a cis woman feels to be infertile, to not have children or what have you, but I can tell you- She feel like a man. What's that? 508 01:36:53.026 --> 01:37:04.206 She feel like a man. She, yes, [laughs] she feel like a man. Well, I don't, I don't know. I can't speak on their behalf and know how they feel, but what I know is that, like, I used to go to the airport, 509 01:37:05.166 --> 01:37:12.546 and I remember just, like, looking over and seeing them folding up the, the, the, the husbands helping fold up the thing so they can get on the airport. 510 01:37:12.626 --> 01:37:26.166 Somebody's got a baby on their back and the thing, and I'm just looking, like, at... There used to be a time in my life and I'm just like, I, that's never gonna, I'm never gonna be able to have that family experience. 511 01:37:26.386 --> 01:37:26.686 Yeah. 512 01:37:26.726 --> 01:37:49.086 And, and, and, and, and so much so that, girl, life gagged me some years ago in 2020, some of y'all will remember this, that I got dragged across, uh, the blogs and everything else by, because I had dated a man that I didn't know was already engaged and had a baby and- Oh, sister, I felt so, I felt so... 513 01:37:49.326 --> 01:38:04.846 I keyed in the name. [laughs] But I felt so sad 'cause I was like, "Oh," you know, the girls want a, the girls want they Black man, you know? Girl, I... Listen, I did not know. 514 01:38:04.966 --> 01:38:13.256 I, I never am able to tap into my fame when I want to. It never seems that I could just be like, "Oh, here I am," go to the bank, it's supposed to do something. Mm-hmm. 515 01:38:13.386 --> 01:38:27.946 But the moment some drama happens, I know I'm famous. [laughs] Girl, when I tell you I wanted to cut, I wanted to dye my hair, wear a wig and glasses for, for like a month because- Girl... I was, girl, I was on Page Six. 516 01:38:28.466 --> 01:38:30.366 I was on, um- Girl... 517 01:38:30.386 --> 01:38:44.306 Porsha Williams and Da Brat talking about me on Dish Nation.And I was mad at the brat because, I was mad at the brat because the brat's like, "Now Angelica in the wrong for, uh, you know, putting his business out there like that," and da, da, da. 518 01:38:44.336 --> 01:38:57.016 I'm like, "Hold up. What do you mean, like, that I'm putting out there that he's dating?" I'm like, "First of all, I'm post-op, so I'm not putting anything... He's... The only thing he's seen is a vagina." Mm-hmm. 519 01:38:57.396 --> 01:39:04.626 So- She's certainly clear... so you, so you're letting me know that you don't know that there is also pre-op and post-op trans women. No, sure. 520 01:39:04.626 --> 01:39:21.276 And second, and secondly, that man told me, you know, to, to put that information out there. Mm-hmm. And so he knew that he had a situation going. Long story short, I'm standing in my kitchen. I'm telling T. 521 01:39:21.836 --> 01:39:35.156 I'm standing in my kitchen- [laughs]... and we all in the text message thing talking about his baby mama, his ex-fiance, whatever, uh, they all wanna talk. We all wanna talk. Oh, everybody gotta talk, I guess. 522 01:39:35.196 --> 01:39:49.076 We all gotta talk. So- Together? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, go on. We in my kitchen, she crying, he crying. [laughs] The baby crying. 523 01:39:49.436 --> 01:39:57.236 [laughs] A- and she's just, like, trying to get down to it, and she's like, "So this, you really wanna be with her," and blah, blah, blah, this and that. 524 01:39:57.266 --> 01:40:10.716 And, you know, he's telling her, yeah, you know, this, that, and the la-la. And- How old was the baby? Okay, so let me just tell you, l- [laughs] The baby, the baby was a baby. The baby was not like baby cuckoo, caca. 525 01:40:10.976 --> 01:40:22.656 Oh. But the baby was still not fully speaking words, let's just say that. Okay. The baby was- Okay. It was a baby, right? And- It was, we were 12, still in the 12 months or past 12 months? I think past 12. 526 01:40:22.776 --> 01:40:30.556 I think- Okay, like 18 months or something. Something around there. Something around there. Okay. You know, I don't know children like that. Okay. I really don't. 527 01:40:31.435 --> 01:40:46.916 [laughs] Now, remember I told you, I'm in the airport- Uh-huh... having dysphoric episodes. [laughs] Because I'm thinking I'll never be able to have my family experience. Uh-huh. 528 01:40:47.756 --> 01:40:59.096 When I tell you, this girl said, "Okay, well, I'm just letting you know, you gonna take care of this kid. If you gonna have a life, I'ma have a life too." And she just gave, she handed the baby to him. 529 01:40:59.296 --> 01:41:10.116 She said, "Here you go." She said, "I'll see you tomorrow," um, blah, blah, blah. She left. Yeah. So then here, here I am standing in my kitchen with my man and a baby. 530 01:41:12.896 --> 01:41:17.416 I- How long ago, how long it last with the baby, girl? That's what I wanna know. About a couple days. 531 01:41:17.576 --> 01:41:29.796 I said- [laughs] Like, no, but 'cause what had happened was, 'cause what had happened was, I just, I literally was standing there and my mind was like- Well, how else did you think it was gonna happen? Uh-huh. 532 01:41:31.376 --> 01:41:34.656 And I was just like, "But not like this. 533 01:41:34.736 --> 01:41:43.056 Like, I don't want no dude that's not, barely not taking care of his kids and, you know, wanting to escape from, you know, all this, and not being upfront about things 'cause the way you get him is the way you lose him type situation. 534 01:41:43.116 --> 01:41:54.085 I don't want that." No, not at all. He, he has been begging me to take him back for years. I, I, I, I am not taking him back. Um- The baby ain't even a part yet?

Who knows, girl? I done checked out from that thing. Oh. 535 01:41:54.096 --> 01:42:02.376 But I know that, when I'm gonna tell you the baby mama wanted b- to be my best friend. We would, she was like, she was, she lo- she was a fan, so that's why she couldn't be too mad at me. Okay. 536 01:42:03.656 --> 01:42:16.556 [laughs] She's like, "I could do worse. I guess you could have a different-" [laughs] "... person." [laughs] Brianna said, "Life comes at you fast, honey." It sure does. It sure does. Um, I don't want to gloss over. 537 01:42:16.756 --> 01:42:27.696 I saw there was a little kerfuffle going on in the, uh, the text message, I mean, in the, the chat room. Um, people were going at it. I don't know why, uh, uh, and, you know, Brianna and they... 538 01:42:27.896 --> 01:42:36.856 I saw, you know, I don't know, I saw Queen was... I, I just don't know w- there was a, some attitude and things going on. Um- Oh, uh, Rondi, who was on the call? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 539 01:42:36.976 --> 01:42:48.566 And so they were just in the chat message, like, going back and forth, like, real bad. Um- Oh, no, diva, it's okay. We just want- Yeah... to be honest, you know? And no shade, sis, we were not talking about, 540 01:42:49.556 --> 01:42:56.526 like, the DMV and stuff. And I think, I think it's also okay, um, for that not to be the topic of conversation. 541 01:42:56.555 --> 01:43:21.306 But, I, but, I mean, but I think what she was saying, though, was very, you know, was, for the conversation, of saying the things that we go through as trans people, having to show up in these public places to bring documents and do all of these different things, and have to go to court for the documents, pay, all the stuff that we pay for in sweat, blood, and tears being a trans person, um, needs to be considered and needs to stop being discarded as if we don't know what we're talking about. 542 01:43:21.896 --> 01:43:32.516 A- and 'cause baby, I, I've read gender theory books too, you know? I, Julia Serano, that's my girl too. The, and Julia Serano's actually a, a, a white trans woman who's very much academic. 543 01:43:32.636 --> 01:43:42.436 I think she's even, like, a, some kind of scientist or biologist or s- That's the Whipping Girl, right? Who wrote Whipping Girl? Julia Serano. Okay, that's what I thought. Okay, right. 544 01:43:42.596 --> 01:43:53.436 And that's what, what they don't understand is for many of us trans girls, especially back in the... Whipping Girl was, like, the, was, like, 101 reading. It's when, when you were getting into the academia of it all. 545 01:43:53.516 --> 01:44:08.936 Like, Julia Serano wrote the hell out of that book. Um, so, like, uh, Q- Queen, you wanna get on it? You wanna... Uh, A- Aaron, hold, hold one second. I'm gonna, uh, bring- I'm back trying to read now. Queen. 546 01:44:09.636 --> 01:44:22.896 [laughs] Okay, hold on one second. We're gonna bring you on 'cause it's all good. Where did we... I, I'm hoping that... Queen. So is this, are, were you the one that was texting me on the chat, Aaron? A-R-O-N? No, no. 547 01:44:23.466 --> 01:44:31.376 Me. Okay. No. Um, we, I was up here, and I was speaking about an experience, but you know what? This is the divide in the trans community. 548 01:44:31.856 --> 01:44:44.096 When a girl is out here trying to find a space, it's, it's, it's, it's individuals that make us feel uncomfortable-And to where we don't- What made you feel uncomfortable? Where we... 'Cause I don't like mean girls. 549 01:44:44.316 --> 01:44:53.096 If we're, if this is our first time meeting, and this is how- Well, what we were-... we w- you got, you asked me. So what was, what was, w- how were- You asked, I'm finishing. Yeah. 550 01:44:53.156 --> 01:45:01.856 The energy up here, just the, I mean, y'all were both talking, I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot. 551 01:45:01.956 --> 01:45:09.736 I was trying to be polite and talk when, you know, when I had the chance to, but y'all were having a conversation. You never let the conversation, "Well, let's let Queen speak. 552 01:45:09.836 --> 01:45:22.696 You know, she's been here, she's been quiet," and things like that. So it just... And then all this, the pre-op and all that, and the white and the this, that. My husband is white, and I don't give a fuck. 553 01:45:23.256 --> 01:45:35.655 I'm gonna love him. I, there's nothing wrong with dating white people. I just said all white people were racist. It was a m- it was an opinion that was stated earlier. What opinion? That all white people are racist. 554 01:45:35.696 --> 01:45:43.486 Yes, she did. So you don't believe that? You work with white people? So this was- What's the... I'm trying to figure out. So listen, we can have the- What's the complaint? Yes. What's the complaint? No, no, listen. 555 01:45:43.536 --> 01:45:50.286 So this, we can have this conversation. The reason why we say this, that's a y- that's a shorthand euphemism in academia spaces. 556 01:45:50.836 --> 01:45:57.986 So it's shorthand euphemism to say that all white people are racist because it g- it gets people to say, like, "What?" 557 01:45:58.016 --> 01:46:11.196 It's a euphemism, but the reality is, in academic spaces, we're talking about, just like we explain the fact of being ableist, that we are brought into a world that centers able-bodied people and centers whiteness. 558 01:46:11.506 --> 01:46:16.956 And if you are white, you are brought up in that way to center your whiteness, your white opinion, all these different things. 559 01:46:17.336 --> 01:46:34.336 So all white people are racist who, until, until they start to create a relationship in interrogating their whiteness, 'cause if you just leave the whiteness alone and say, "I'm just a good white person," then you're gonna be unconsciously participating in anti-Blackness. 560 01:46:34.496 --> 01:46:52.056 That is the kind of experience I've had with even my ex-fiance, is that he wouldn't consider himself

racist, but he also did not int- he would spend no time interrogating his whiteness, and was just moving around as a white man in ways that were anti-Black that weren't unchecked. 561 01:46:52.476 --> 01:47:01.176 So what we're saying here, just as an able- just as ableism, it works across the board with all of it. Ableism, racism, all of the different things. 562 01:47:01.436 --> 01:47:12.676 I am not saying I'm a bad person because I'm ableist, but what I am saying is there's no doubt about the fact that I grew up in an a- uh, that I'm ableist. 563 01:47:12.776 --> 01:47:27.076 That I, the way that we operate, and even with our own selves and try to not, try to hold on to our jobs when we are f- experiencing different things that are disabling, and we're masking the fact that we're having this problem so that we don't get fired or so that certain things don't happen, 564 01:47:28.296 --> 01:47:40.116 that's internalized ableism. So w- we're just explaining the fact that I don't care what white person out there, uh, g- great, love you. Have you been interrogating your whiteness? No? Then, uh, you can't be trusted. 565 01:47:40.196 --> 01:47:54.196 Just like I can't be trusted as somebody to not be ableist if I haven't been having a conversation about what ableism is. But I get that point, but our people are racist against each other. That's a big fucking problem. 566 01:47:54.206 --> 01:48:01.136 Sorry, so wait, hold on one second. And like old girl said in the middle of the time, "Oh, I don't wanna have to read nobody." Baby, you ain't gonna read nothing. No, she said for you not to come on here reading. 567 01:48:01.356 --> 01:48:06.986 That's what she was saying. Hopefully you No, no, I, I knew what she said. I, I caught it. What- But my thing is- Aaron, yeah... 568 01:48:07.056 --> 01:48:17.236 if we're gonna be trans sisters and we gonna come together for a good cause, there should be some type of decorum, some type of structure. Let everybody talk. But there is- You know, I'm, I'm new here. 569 01:48:17.656 --> 01:48:26.616 I know, but- But if this is how y'all introducing me, why would I wanna sit at a table with y'all? Why would I wanna go to a meeting with y'all? Listen. Listen, listen. Can I, can I reply? Yes, Aaron. 570 01:48:26.646 --> 01:48:38.196 'Cause I think there was some confusion. Um, she said that there was an argument happening in the t- in the chat thread, and that she was gonna bring you back. I said, "Don't come in here trying to read, now." 571 01:48:38.716 --> 01:48:45.436 I don't need you to tell me what to do. I'm a grown woman. And so am I, so I'm gonna give- Okay, so grown-... you the benefit of the doubt... don't tell me what... 572 01:48:45.716 --> 01:48:51.266 But listen, that's where you messed up, so, so- But hold on one second... because you... Hold on, hold on. We, we need a moderator. We need moderators- But listen, I'ma, I'ma, I'ma meet you-... 573 01:48:51.266 --> 01:49:00.136 'cause I don't want this to

get out of hand... with your energy. So she said, "Don't come up here with this and that," then I'ma give you... What, what did you mean by that? Because- Well, she-... I'm a grown woman. 574 01:49:00.516 --> 01:49:02.386 I know how to conduct myself. Okay. 575 01:49:02.396 --> 01:49:11.176 But I thought that, I thought that it was a very, it was very rude, and it's so interesting that you're speaking up now when you saw me sitting up here on the whole panel, and I wasn't saying nothing. 576 01:49:11.236 --> 01:49:18.826 You didn't even say, "Well, let's let so-and-so speak." Well, that's not- Let's-... because that's not what this- But hold on. That's not... Wait, wait, as a, as a conversation- All right, then. 577 01:49:18.826 --> 01:49:30.216 I, I tried to come up here and have a conversation with y'all. You let- Okay, I'm gonna remind you now. So basically, 'cause the thing is, is that she wasn't listening at all to w- what was- No... 578 01:49:30.266 --> 01:49:41.856 and the thing is, is that- And I-... the, all this energy, she brought that energy. She brought this- I just wanna say, can I say this to her also? I was booked to be here, okay? Yes, yes, yes. 579 01:49:42.056 --> 01:49:52.536 I'm sitting here and just, we're not just sitting here- Right... cafeteria talking. Um- Aaron's name was on the, uh- Yes... actual show notes to come in, and that we were gonna be specifically talking about this. 580 01:49:52.816 --> 01:50:04.736 But also, I just wanna dispel something that she mentioned. We are not all sisters. I don't know you from a can of paint, and I think it's okay for us to say we don't know each other from a can of paint. 581 01:50:05.216 --> 01:50:19.766 Um, and there was a lot that can be assumed when we don't ask clarifying questions. Absolutely. I wasn't aware that there was any issue, um... Oh, okay, it's the Queen Tulsa Show. Okay, so she, she giving Laverne. 582 01:50:19.806 --> 01:50:31.116 She trying to sell tickets. Anyway, moving on. Gotcha. Yeah, uh, and Brianna, if you wanna bring, uh, come up on here, text me, 'cause, uh, send me, you know, send me a text so I can send you the link. 583 01:50:31.216 --> 01:50:39.016 Uh, I know you had that number that you text me, uh, with before. She probably And it might still be-... didn't have to share... it might still be the same link. I don't know. But, you know, I, I really... 584 01:50:39.146 --> 01:50:50.970 I, 'cause I wanted, I tried to give space to have this kinda calm down a little bit, but it was like, what's happening there, and what I saw happening there with her is she's coming in-... new- She gave that... 585 01:50:50.990 --> 01:51:01.780 to a conversation that has been going on. So when she's talking about, she was about to say that we as Black people can be racist. Again, it's, it's, it's saying something that's not true. 586 01:51:02.640 --> 01:51:11.800 We- Black people- We have to- We cannot- One Yes... she is gonna flip that out on me if we keep talking about. You're right. You're right. But Black people, we cannot be racist. 587 01:51:11.860 --> 01:51:24.040 We can, we can be prejudiced, we can discriminate, we can do all of those things, but we do not have the power, we do not have the power that, uh, that racism has. 588 01:51:24.300 --> 01:51:39.940 Because any time that we think we're gonna tap into that power, ra- uh, r- racism will eventually let you know, Candice Owens or any of those other pickaninnies that think that they can tap into, uh, the power that racist people are doing, they're gonna gag you too, girl, and let you know, no, you don't have the power to participate in this. 589 01:51:40.960 --> 01:51:56.020 Angelica, I love you so much. You are so gracious. I am. I am. Oh, my gosh. [laughs] Because the way... [laughs] Yeah, so- I, that just gave closure... 590 01:51:56.080 --> 01:52:01.900 I, you know, I just try, I just try, I just try to make space for everybody. I, I try to make space for them, but you have to... 591 01:52:01.960 --> 01:52:09.930 And folks, when you're coming into community, you just gotta take responsibility for your own energy and the way that you're coming into the space and not assume- Mm-hmm... 592 01:52:09.930 --> 01:52:19.600 about, uh, not assume what's happening when things are moving around you. When you're f- new into a space, you're creating all kind of narratives and emotions around things that didn't, that weren't there. 593 01:52:19.690 --> 01:52:27.500 And then I saw, you know, she, she did get you confused with Brianna in the chat, 'cause her and Brianna was going at it, and Brianna was reading her for filth. 594 01:52:27.540 --> 01:52:45.240 [laughs] I was- Brianna was r- Well, I didn't even say nothing. What's going on? Brianna was reading her down. Thank you. Uh, Angelica Ross Buddha g- is gagging and giving teas. [laughs] No. Absolutely. 595 01:52:45.340 --> 01:53:01.320 But I, I, I think the point still stands at what we were all, uh, talking about. Um, why you saying, Z, Z is saying I play- Who's saying you play? Z is saying I play, uh... She thinks Erin is Ion. 596 01:53:01.380 --> 01:53:03.650 Yeah, no, I think she's, uh, somebody might be confused. Oh, okay. 597 01:53:03.680 --> 01:53:13.840 But, um, these girls are insecure and, um, have no community, and that is, that, that is the thing, is sometimes pe- you know, when they're trying to get community and they see, you know, they feel like some girls are... 598 01:53:13.860 --> 01:53:26.880 And, like, some girls are mean girls into different things. But, like, I don't know what to say. We gonna move on from that. I just have to say, I just- What are you gonna say? This is not the place to meet new friends. 599 01:53:27.160 --> 01:53:36.460 So I also want us to not be speaking as if what she was saying was the truth. [laughs] Because- That's what I'm saying... 600 01:53:36.520 --> 01:53:48.980 you come to Angelica Ross' podcast to say, "I'm trying to make friends and community,"

girl, we are having a conversation with a topic that you could have spoken into. 601 01:53:49.440 --> 01:54:00.320 I think my issue is I, I don't understand, and this isn't just her, this idea that your identity is a virtue of somehow. 602 01:54:01.080 --> 01:54:13.660 Um, you being a tranny, you being non-binary, you being whatever does not speak to the content of your character. Yes. Yes. So, so the idea that- Yes... 603 01:54:13.860 --> 01:54:21.690 the assumption always has to be that you are speaking in good faith because I know that you are trans, I'm not operating out of that place. No. 604 01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:37.520 I have easily had a conversation with Blondie, um, but she wanted to be hype and she wanted to get a clip for the Queen Tulsa Show. So sister, I hope you got it, and white people are still racist. Yeah. 605 01:54:37.640 --> 01:54:50.000 Uh, that's basically what it is. Um, uh, I know, uh... And so basically... Oh, she says she's needs, she needs the new link. Okay. So, uh, but did you t- did you text me though? Uh, how you got a, you got a- Yeah... 606 01:54:50.240 --> 01:55:00.300 uh, q- uh, Brianna wants to hop on really quick. Oh, I, I was gonna say, don't bring Blondie back. No, no, she tried to get back on here, but, uh, no. But, um, I am going- I'm scared from talking about that bi. 607 01:55:00.860 --> 01:55:08.850 [laughs] See, stop. We gonna keep it cute. We're not gonna be mean gi- like, 'cause you see that she... You can see what you see, you know what I'm saying? Like, you see. Yeah. 608 01:55:08.900 --> 01:55:18.800 So, like, just, you know, you know, you see that, that, um, she just not picking up what we're, we're putting down, I think. Um, Brianna, I'm trying to, uh... 609 01:55:19.100 --> 01:55:30.600 So I'ma put this, uh, banner up so you can see the number if you need the banner again. Um, let me. Wait, let's see here. Oh, there go Brianna. Okay, good. There's Brianna. 610 01:55:31.140 --> 01:55:37.400 Okay, so I'ma t- I'm texting you the link right now. There you go. You got the link. 'Cause I know Brianna gonna have some words. 611 01:55:37.619 --> 01:55:48.020 [laughs] But yeah, you know, but, but again, overall, what we're getting at is, um- And no shade to Queen Tulsa, I just had to give her that. No, of c- of course. 612 01:55:48.080 --> 01:55:56.730 And that's, that's what the girls don't know, is like, you know- [laughs]... that's, that's what they don't... Like, that's, being one of the girls too is like you gotta know the boundaries of the talk- Yeah... 613 01:55:56.730 --> 01:56:05.620 without getting too hype about the situation. Us girls, we give it to each other. You understand what I'm saying? But we don't, there, we don't have to fight like that. That doesn't, that doesn't have to be like that. 614 01:56:06.420 --> 01:56:12.380 Um, Brianna is coming back s- wait, Brianna, are you here yet? Okay, she's coming backstage. She's getting, uh, uh, logged on. 615 01:56:12.440 --> 01:56:30.200 But, so I just, again, just to reiterate what we're talking about here, when we're talking about trans versus non-binary, understanding that there is an umbrella, but being trans and being non-binary are not the same thing, and we don't always belong in the same conversation, um, when we're having those things. 616 01:56:30.280 --> 01:56:43.980 Sometimes it has to do more with your actual experience and with your lived experience. And when it comes to, you know, femme-presenting trans women, we understand that just the difference between trans men 617 01:56:44.920 --> 01:56:46.700 and trans women- Mm... 618 01:56:46.770 --> 01:57:14.528 the fact that the world a- acts completely obtuse and don't even understand that trans men exist, and it's because of their hyper-focus on femininity and women that they, that we end up under this magnifying glass of womanhood too, because they're already got this magnifying glass on every woman.So when we understand those things, we understand there's an immediate experience that's gonna be different because of that fact. 619 01:57:14.538 --> 01:57:22.668 And if we're gonna play in each other's faces about that, that I'm not, you know, I'm not interested in, in like doing, in, in doing that. Yeah. I just heard Brianna pop on. Here we go. 620 01:57:22.688 --> 01:57:32.778 We're gonna add Brianna to the stage. Hey, Brianna. Oh. Hey, Brianna. [laughs] Brianna, what was going on, girl? She was trying it. That's what was going on. 621 01:57:33.138 --> 01:57:41.408 [laughs] What, what, what, like- I was making sure she got- 'Cause you, 'cause she started, I think she started getting mad ab- uh you, you started get- 'cause she was mad that I took her off the thing in the beginning... 622 01:57:42.068 --> 01:57:49.848 sis was mad, sis was mad when she had to drop down, and you took her down, and then you brought her back up, and she was on 10. 623 01:57:49.968 --> 01:58:04.228 And what it gives me is the girl that's in the support group that no matter how you try to accommodate you, they come looking for the fight. I'm not, I'm not new to this, so I knew what I saw when she was doing the most. 624 01:58:04.268 --> 01:58:12.948 And there w- it was nothing either of you could've said to her to bring her down. She was, my sis was looking for a fight. And then it's okay. 625 01:58:13.088 --> 01:58:18.048 I had to get at, at her to let her know, and my name i- is not Aaron, it's Ayon. 626 01:58:18.068 --> 01:58:38.728 [laughs] But, um, I, w- we're, and we need to, we need to do this better when we see people trying to come at our sisters for no reason, because we have all, we have also experienced this in the, the movement or in the work, girls feeling some type of way about something, and them feeling like it's license to come at you. 627 01:58:39.308 --> 01:58:52.838 If you're at your depth, if you're not understanding the conversation, it's okay to ask. It's a, this is a, a round table situation. If you wanna jump in, sis,

jump on in. That's what this is for. We're all grown women. 628 01:58:53.328 --> 01:59:05.638 It... but also she's talking about white folks ain't racist. Sis is in Tulsa fighting for her life. [laughs] But we need to keep her lifted up in a, the ev- evangelical Christian prayer. Oh, Lord. 629 01:59:05.638 --> 01:59:08.108 We need to keep sis lifted up- Absolutely... 630 01:59:08.128 --> 01:59:18.688 and pray for her, her coverage and protection, because sis saying that Black people can be racist too, it's just like, you're not ready, and I don't wanna talk- That's what it was. 631 01:59:18.728 --> 01:59:21.707 You're not ready for this conversation- It is... and you're getting mad at us. 632 01:59:21.988 --> 01:59:31.598 And I'm not saying that as to, to put her down or to put anybody that has that mindset down, 'cause there's a lot of people that say that, and we want everybody to get the awareness. 633 01:59:31.708 --> 01:59:47.648 But every conversation is not for everybody, and that's okay. Also, we need to reclaim the word transsexual. No shade- Hello... that conversation with Laverne Cox and the girls, that was a transsexual conversation. 634 01:59:47.718 --> 01:59:55.797 That was for the girls that's on the s- transsexual part of the umbrella. Everything is not for everybody. I know- Absolutely... 635 01:59:55.797 --> 02:00:05.708 everybody wants to feel included, and it's a big umbrella, but it's a transsexual- But I think everybody could be included on the MSNBC panel. Right. You know what I'm saying? 636 02:00:05.718 --> 02:00:15.348 We will- Like, when we, when we zoom out and everybody's talking about all the different things and bringing in this expert and that expert, I get it, but at that initial conversation, you're right, it should've been the transsexualities. 637 02:00:15.357 --> 02:00:25.888 It is. So, this a tr- to me it was a tran- and again, going back to the conversation from last week, um, shout out to Jerome. Sweetie, you do not have to block me. I thought we were having a healthy debate. 638 02:00:25.968 --> 02:00:33.628 We're both community members now. Now, now that I know you're under the trans umbrella, I thought we could go back and forth and still be cool, but it's okay. 639 02:00:33.708 --> 02:00:39.948 When I see you in person, I'm gonna roll up on you and be like, "Now, you know you ain't have to block me." But getting back to my point- [laughs] Right. Yes, yes... 640 02:00:39.988 --> 02:00:49.248 getting back to my point, it, it, it's a, it's a transsexual conversation, and it's okay. And it's n- it's no shade to DeShawn. 641 02:00:49.308 --> 02:01:01.968 Like I said last week, I felt what they were saying, but you can't, you can't tell me what it's like for me moving through spaces, navigating love as a woman interacting with a man. 642 02:01:02.028 --> 02:01:13.668 Like, it, it's just not going to hit the same. And then I watched DeShawn's live after the fact, and it, it was a certain... It was a... DeShawn

came into that conversation. 643 02:01:13.768 --> 02:01:22.148 I know everybody was saying Quay was rude or everything, but DeShawn was rolling their eyes at Quay from the first time that Quay, Quay spoke. I saw it. 644 02:01:22.208 --> 02:01:35.328 And then in the aftermath, it's, um, "Well n- well, none of y'all... y'all are saying y'all are binary. That's not real. And none of y'all pass, and all of y'all are niggas anyway." 645 02:01:35.428 --> 02:01:44.748 If you roll up on me calling me a nigga, we gonna have a problem, 'cause like that's your experience, that's not mine, and the problem- They said that? Yeah. 646 02:01:44.828 --> 02:01:57.058 They were, they were like, "Nobody's non-binary, and that's not real. And Trump looks at all of us as we all niggas anyway, so we all... I, I, I..." His- Oh, that's that TS Madison talking point. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah. 647 02:01:57.068 --> 02:02:07.468 DeShawn said, "I, I, I identify as a nigga, and you should identify..." And I'm like, "No." Like, n- now you're jumping off the end and, and taking it to far. Ooh, I gotta go back and see that. 648 02:02:07.508 --> 02:02:17.048 I did not, I didn't hear all that. No, it was the live that's on their- I gotta go see... their Instagram profile where the, where most of the people that were- Did you see Olay, uh, did you see Olay had did a live? 649 02:02:17.308 --> 02:02:23.688 I saw Olay's... I didn't see a live. I saw- Or a story. It was a story. It was-... a story. I stand by what I said last week. 650 02:02:23.788 --> 02:02:40.708 I felt like on a subconscious level it was shade that we have this non-binary person with a beard with these five trans women, because on a subconscious level, and I don't know if sis will admit it, it's giving like, "Well, it don't really matter 'cause they all men with beards anyway." 651 02:02:40.868 --> 02:02:58.408 So I just- Well, I, I'll say what you're saying leads to what Aaron was saying in the sense of what it sounded like when, when Olay was trying to pull herself out of the circle of the conversation as a cis woman, like, that y'all niggas need to talk, and as a cis woman, I, I don't have a, you know, a, a dog in this. 652 02:02:58.488 --> 02:03:09.508 Why ain't... Why- Yeah... why couldn't, why couldn't she be in the conversation, sis? If we, if we're, if we're all women having a, a wo- not a female experience, a woman experience, like come, come, come. Absolutely. 653 02:03:09.518 --> 02:03:20.408 Like, come be a part of this. I'm sorry, y'all. All these distinctions are making my head spin.I'm like, "This is a women conversation." Right. Yes, yes. We are women. 654 02:03:20.508 --> 02:03:37.648 We are Black women with sense trying to- But I thought it was so wrong. I thought it was such a s- a full spin when Olay was on her story talking about, like, basically accusing trans women of being... Transphobic? 655 02:03:38.228 --> 02:03:49.868 Transphobic. Like, because we are t- I'm- Because we are trying to identify the specific, the specificity in this conversation and saying, "No, this is not, this is not the same thing. 656 02:03:49.928 --> 02:03:58.108 We're not the same thing", and I don't care what books you read, I don't care what academia you think, you're not gonna come on here and position yourself as an authority over real trans women. 657 02:03:58.708 --> 02:04:12.108 You tube academy, academia, you have been... Nobody is shook. I, I am living freely in howe- however I show up. I know who I am, and you can't tell me who I... Like, I, I know who I am. 658 02:04:12.208 --> 02:04:22.658 Just because I claim a label or anything, does... I, I, I'm living my life free, free as a bird. Same. Same. 'Cause that, I see somebody on here saying, "These labels got you shook." 659 02:04:23.048 --> 02:04:27.808 And no, let me tell you something about us as- Somebody say, "YouTube academia is really they Sean." 660 02:04:27.888 --> 02:04:53.668 [laughs] Because the thing is, is like I learned when I was reading, um, a, A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, uh, you know, and you know, really, he really hit it home with these labels and basically talked about, like, the fact that we call a sun a sun and a tree and a tree and we've given all these things all these different names. 661 02:04:53.728 --> 02:05:02.308 We then act like as if we know what that thing is 'cause we giving it a label and we stop sitting with the experience of being with these things. 662 02:05:02.328 --> 02:05:13.308 And he talked about how the fact that, like, with these labels, whether you're a mother, a doctor, uh, uh, whatever it is, that people get trapped in their identities of and playing roles. 663 02:05:13.348 --> 02:05:15.748 This is what a woman's supposed to do. This is what a man's supposed to do. 664 02:05:16.088 --> 02:05:24.547 So we understand those things, but when it comes to queer and LGBTQ people, this is what I wanna, uh, put down, and let me see what y'all think about this as well. I always say 665 02:05:25.588 --> 02:05:33.328 it's great when we end up finding an affinity, a group, a label, or certain things, but if you find a thing, drop it almost as soon as you find it. 666 02:05:33.708 --> 02:05:43.768 Meaning it's, it's not something that you just have to carry around all the time. Like, I know it helped me find direction as a trans woman or a pansexual, all these different words or whatever that I'm coming up with. 667 02:05:44.088 --> 02:05:58.568 But at the end of the day, don't none of that, uh, fully explain, you know, don't none of that hit to exactly who and what I am, so no label is something I'm fully attaching myself to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 668 02:05:58.648 --> 02:06:03.748 It's, I mean, it's, it's the, it's the which came first, the chicken or the egg situation. 669 02:06:04.188 --> 02:06:16.988 Most of these things, including us, our bodies, how we show up in the world, uh, they, they exist before any language has to even come into the situation. 670

02:06:17.438 --> 02:06:24.008 And I think even when we're talking about, um, labels and stuff, like, I don't identify as queer. 671 02:06:24.168 --> 02:06:38.368 Um, I think this idea that being trans automatically means you are, like, a queer, like, it's just so, it's so many different things going on. We're not s- and we're not saying that labels don't matter at all. 672 02:06:38.548 --> 02:06:48.208 We're not saying that. That's... Let, let me say this to that person. What's wrong with y'all? Y'all, the comments are so... The people are- They are carrying. [laughs] All right. Let me tell- They're carrying tonight... 673 02:06:48.318 --> 02:07:00.208 Miss, Miss Queen Carla- Be free... if you put this much energy into finding a human hair wig- [laughs]... like you are in the comments, you would, you will be a very long way, sis. Stylist got it. Oh, lord. 674 02:07:00.328 --> 02:07:12.768 I'm sorry, Aaron. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm not even gonna... I- I will. I will. Yeah. I don't mi- I don't mind. Yeah. I don't mind. Um, but my thing is this. A lot of, a lot of this boils down to, for me, 675 02:07:13.788 --> 02:07:26.228 is us trying to live in two worlds at the same time. Like, we wanna live in a world where our labels and all of these things don't actually matter. 676 02:07:26.288 --> 02:07:39.848 We wanna live in a world where you are seen and, and, um, interacted with as a trans person without doing the things that trans people have been doing in this world forever to be recognized. 677 02:07:39.888 --> 02:07:54.508 The t- the truth is, I keep saying, "We tried this. It failed." I think we have to admit that this we are the world shit failed, and now we have to just start keeping it a bean. 678 02:07:55.048 --> 02:08:06.988 Like, we are speaking to a target, we are not speaking to where we are. Like, the education and all of these things has not actually touched the soil for people. 679 02:08:07.368 --> 02:08:22.788 People are still very much going based off of how they see and experience a person, you know? And we have to be honest about that. Yes. Like, all of this- Yes... like, I can give you a full breakdown- [laughs]... 680 02:08:22.928 --> 02:08:28.787 list of my identity labels and all of that type of stuff. [laughs] That don't mean shit to people. 681 02:08:29.368 --> 02:08:44.428 And I think the more that we, the more we talk around that, I think the more space we make for people who are full of shit and pretending that we are living now in the target that we are not in. Absolutely. 682 02:08:44.528 --> 02:08:54.868 I, I, I, I think you really hit the nail on the head with that. Mm-hmm. I feel that we are being, um... You know when somebody's not acting in good faith? Baby. 683 02:08:54.928 --> 02:09:05.688 We are acting in good faith with the fact that we're saying we know what you saying. Mm-hmm. We know the theory and ey, but the practical of what's ha- we're not there yet. 684 02:09:05.728 --> 02:09:14.818 They're not there yet, and we can't sit- For sure... here and act like we are, so we do have to be specific about the things that we're trying to be specific about. We have to be. 685 02:09:14.818 --> 02:09:23.312 Ooh, they are carrying in this comment section. Baby, I'm like, "Bring all of them up. Let's just- [laughs]... have a world conversation."No, girl. 686 02:09:23.832 --> 02:09:34.312 Girl, sh- When white men showed up to the shores of the Americas, there were over 100 genders- Hello... and labels. Now we're trying to adjust to just two. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. I'll give you that. 687 02:09:34.372 --> 02:09:38.322 Don't give me the academia. A broken clock is right sometimes. But also, you, you, you... 688 02:09:38.352 --> 02:09:57.302 Like, the people that are academics and eli- they think they're the only ones that, that know that there are plenty of people in the hood, plenty of people who aren't rich that have access to this knowledge too, that we, because they don't have degrees or stuff like that, we, we disregard their experiences all the time- Literally... 689 02:09:57.392 --> 02:10:08.992 every day. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, uh, uh, Mel was telling me that they did invite them to t- talk about those things. 690 02:10:09.012 --> 02:10:19.292 No, listen, you don't, you don't have to claim responsibility for no one and all the different things or whatever. We all appreciate all the energy here because at the end of the day, no opportunity wasted. Hello? 691 02:10:20.732 --> 02:10:25.852 So this is- And don't waste the opportunity to come here... [laughs]... and put on a queer wig and not forsaken no gay. [laughs] Right. 692 02:10:25.892 --> 02:10:39.972 But wait, but, but Briana, but I wanna say to you though, I do wanna thank you because you are doing something and saying something that, again, as Black trans women, we are so often judged, critiqued, and just about... 693 02:10:40.012 --> 02:10:45.712 We can't... I mean, we're over-judged. We... We're overpoliced. We do anything, people are ready to jump down our throats. Mm. 694 02:10:46.372 --> 02:11:02.572 But the thing, what I love about what you're saying is enough is enough because we are girls of a certain age and who have been in this community for a long time, who are now, like, really experienced with different types of personalities within our community and all kind of things. 695 02:11:02.592 --> 02:11:10.842 And sometimes we do have to check folks because I, I have been a little over nice in many, many ways. 696 02:11:10.892 --> 02:11:17.372 Even in my social media, people know I've been over nice because I'm trying to give people, you know, I'm trying to give them all the benefit of the doubt. 697 02:11:17.412 --> 02:11:24.342 But the way that some of the girls be coming at me like I'm their friend, like I owe them, like they're entitled to certain things when I'm, 698 02:11:25.332 --> 02:11:29.202 I'm offering an olive branch, I'm offering certain things, and some folks even try to m- True... 699

02:11:29.332 --> 02:11:36.092 There's a lot of different things that go on, and we need to get better at holding people's hands, um, with love, you know, and let... 700 02:11:36.372 --> 02:11:46.212 But also doing that thing where we can r- you know, we used to be able to read and talk to each other in a way where the girls understood that I'm not trying to break you down as a person. I'm telling you, bitch, no. 701 02:11:46.992 --> 02:11:58.572 The girls need, the girls need, they don't need you to be nice to them. They need access to mental health services, and I'm not saying that to be shady or ableist. So true. She came in ready to fight. 702 02:11:58.752 --> 02:12:07.952 That came from somewhere. And like zooming out, I see the fat phobi- I, the fat phobic stuff and the little colorist stuff. I'm going to pay that because y'all heard about something. 703 02:12:08.312 --> 02:12:11.612 What I will say is we not your enemies, mama. 704 02:12:12.072 --> 02:12:26.512 You are in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where they are, where they are the ground zero for the anti-trans, the, the anti-Black, and you are sitting here proclaiming that you're partnered to a white man in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 705 02:12:26.912 --> 02:12:32.972 Sweetie, we should be the last of, of your concerns, and I really hope that, um, 706 02:12:33.912 --> 02:12:47.252 the universe brings some- something in, in your support orbit where you're able to process that and really, um, deal with the realities of that on top of you trying to go to the DMV and having your experience at your D- DMV. 707 02:12:47.312 --> 02:12:55.012 But sweetie, we're not, we're not your enemies. That man that you're laying next to, the white man, he's probably your enemy. 708 02:12:55.562 --> 02:13:06.472 That synthetic wig that was on top of your head when you came on your camera, whoever sold you that wig, that person's your enemy. But it's not us. So I, I'm going to, to let it slide. 709 02:13:06.592 --> 02:13:20.102 I really do wish you well, but we have to... What I don't like in community is how, again, people feel like they are entitled to you because they, they look at you with, as this thing. So true. 710 02:13:20.102 --> 02:13:30.592 And they think that they're supposed to have this experience for y- from you, and when you don't live up to what they think you are in their head, they're think, they think it's okay to fight you, blast you, and expose you. 711 02:13:30.992 --> 02:13:42.452 I'm not in the business of doing that to other Black, um, trans women, period. And even though I'm, I'm reading her and I'm king with her, I still want the best for her- Absolutely... for her to live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 712 02:13:42.652 --> 02:13:50.732 Absolutely. I'm still gonna read you 'cause you're trying it, girl, but- [laughs] Absolutely... we should have more care with each other, and we should give each other, um, the, the benefit of the doubt. 713 02:13:50.812 --> 02:13:59.532 But I'm going to read, that's just what we

do. Absolutely. So, um, yeah, don't... Yeah, but you're not gonna come at my sister and think Bri- Briana's not gonna have nothing to say about it. 714 02:13:59.672 --> 02:14:13.392 It just- And I'm not a mean girl. I just have a very bitchy tone of voice. [laughs] Yes. And I, I love it. I absolutely love it, and we're gonna definitely be hearing a lot more from Erin Lane. 715 02:14:13.592 --> 02:14:23.042 Um, Erin Lane, uh, you, you, we're gonna have you, uh, we're working on some things behind the scenes, so I'm not, we're not gonna talk about that right now. But I will, I will just say- Woo... 716 02:14:23.042 --> 02:14:30.312 that people who know me know that even one of the reasons I'm doing things like this is to constantly... 717 02:14:30.412 --> 02:14:46.692 I've been able to make space for my voice, my big-ass, loud-ass voice or whatever, and I'm just trying to share the mic because I know that I'm not the only one, and I'm not, and I'm not that girl who talks about not being the only one while also making sure she's the only one in the space. 718 02:14:46.762 --> 02:14:48.602 Hello. Do you understand what I'm saying? That's definitely me. 719 02:14:48.672 --> 02:14:56.332 I am, I am that girl that literally says that and calls up the girls whenever there's a situation or whenever there, whenever there's, you know, what have you. 720 02:14:56.412 --> 02:15:07.092 So Briana, as well, I hope to, uh, have you continue to come on here and give your expertise because what I love about you as well, sis, is that you bring it from the streets to the courtroom. 721 02:15:07.172 --> 02:15:15.792 Like it's something, again, people don't see you coming because they assume that we don't read books, 'cause some of the girls don't read books. Right. But, and they be out here just talking. 722 02:15:16.152 --> 02:15:25.472 But the, but the thing is is that some of us have, uh, re- read books, some of us go to college, and even those that ha- haven't read, uh, academic books, we get it some other way sometimes. 723 02:15:25.812 --> 02:15:37.236 And sometimes the people in college don't know a motherfucking thing but what they read in them damn books and can't think beyond that. Right, and if, if you can-And part of me being a lawyer, she can be... 724 02:15:37.276 --> 02:15:44.576 I'm going back to the comments, she can be realer than me if she wants to be, bitch. My life is together on paper, and that's all that matters. 725 02:15:44.906 --> 02:15:52.776 And when we're talking about the, the, the rain coming down on the girls, I have a little bit more insulation, so I'm, I ain't worried about none of that. My life is fad. 726 02:15:53.276 --> 02:16:04.596 But part of being a lawyer or being somebody that has access means that you have the responsibility to distill it so that even the lay person can understand what you're saying. Come on. 727 02:16:04.646 --> 02:16:15.776 If all you can speak in this high, this high in the sky thing, and the people on the ground don't get it, and the people on, on the ground need to get it because there's more of them than there are of you. 728 02:16:16.256 --> 02:16:25.896 So what, what's the point of having all of this ed- access to education if the people on the ground don't even know what the hell you're talking about and can't apply it to their real life? Hello. 729 02:16:26.036 --> 02:16:46.376 And with all of that education, with all of that scholarship, not being able to say, "Hey, maybe I can sit this conversation out," or, "Maybe I could moderate the conversation because I am so familiar with the, the source of this conversation. 730 02:16:46.406 --> 02:16:54.556 I could- Of desirability, and yes... walk through this topic instead of being on there and then saying Trump's look- looks at us all as niggas." 731 02:16:54.636 --> 02:17:05.116 Because let me tell you something, if we all walked in front of Trump- Right... he's not gonna see us. 'Cause the reality is he's not gonna see... No, he's not. Absolutely not. Exactly. 732 02:17:05.146 --> 02:17:11.656 Ex- That's not what he gonna see Nigga, nigga winter, okay? [laughs] Nigga winter. Be- I mean, and, and we, and we... 733 02:17:11.696 --> 02:17:24.156 And listen, we, uh, obviously we understand that, uh, gender, uh, uh, beauty, all of those are in the eye of the beholder. We all understand that we all can get called one on any given Sunday. I do understand that. 734 02:17:24.196 --> 02:17:33.196 But on, on a regular day, on a 90 given north, and nobody's at no trans protest and doing nothing, I'm just going to get my groceries, they not, they don't see a nigga. 735 02:17:33.676 --> 02:17:38.236 But the thing is, even if I get clapped- They do, but not in the way niggas see niggas. 736 02:17:38.316 --> 02:17:49.656 They see niggas- But this is the thing, that even if I get clapped or I get misgendered, as soon as you talk to me, as soon as you interact, "Oh, excuse me, ma'am," because it's, it's the spirit of a woman. 737 02:17:50.096 --> 02:17:59.836 It's the, the essence of a woman. And you, you, you might see something, but once you interact with me, it's, it's all about the spirit and it's all about the essence of what you're getting from me. 738 02:17:59.916 --> 02:18:04.456 So like, re- remember that I think there've been people at times who have wanted to misgender me but couldn't. You know what I mean? 739 02:18:04.556 --> 02:18:12.396 Meaning like, 'cause they keeps, they wanna misgender you and they, they, they calling you she on accident 'cause they, they, they, there ain't nothing else they could do. Right. 740 02:18:13.016 --> 02:18:23.456 Somebody asked in here, and I wanna know what y'all think about this as well. Someone asked, "Can we unpack Laverne saying you make her feel unsafe, but not the white ma- MAGA?" Who, when did she say that? 741 02:18:23.636 --> 02:18:30.316 So I, so she... Basically, they're, what they're talking about is, you know, I, 'cause I apologized to Laverne in

my last live, you know. 742 02:18:30.416 --> 02:18:43.976 I was saying that like, you know, I know that, I guess one of the reasons she put distance between us or that, you know, that, that things were like that is she said that I, you know, felt, made her feel like she wasn't woken up and made her feel, you know, like unsafe. 743 02:18:44.036 --> 02:18:47.605 Like, you know, and I, and I, and what I... You know, I, what I'm saying is, 744 02:18:48.716 --> 02:18:59.776 one, I'm just gonna own up to my own, I'm just gonna own up to my own thing and say if I'm making any one of my friends feel unsafe, that is not my intention ever is to make someone feel unsafe. 745 02:18:59.816 --> 02:19:09.956 But I also pointed out that Quay was there when, you know, that particular, we had that, what, particular conversation. And anyone that knows me knows that what am I doing? What do you mean unsafe? Am I... I'm not a... 746 02:19:10.176 --> 02:19:23.936 You... I may have strong opinions, you know. But y- you might feel unsafe though if you want to hold on to certain things that you know you, that you know are problematic. But you know what makes me feel unsafe? 747 02:19:25.936 --> 02:19:38.656 When I saw Laverne in that, that one video with the short cut wig on. That, that, that ma- that made me feel unsafe. [laughs] A comment You know, well, it's like, no, look- You are carrying with these wigs, girl... 748 02:19:38.716 --> 02:19:45.256 lo- lo- lo- But yeah, no, you weren't the only one who made a comment about that wig though. No, no, no. But no, we lo- we love Laverne. Everybody love Laverne- We love her. We're just being... independent of your wig... 749 02:19:45.316 --> 02:20:00.495 Yes. Yes 'Cause I just... And I don't think, I don't think I got to get to this point in the last video. Nobody is saying, "Oh, you're with a white man. Go, go and date Black men." None of these men are safe. 750 02:20:00.756 --> 02:20:15.036 What we, but what we are choosing, choosing Black love, choosing Black men, that's not going to make you, u- us as women and femmes, that's not gonna make us any safe, safer. None of these men are safe. 751 02:20:15.456 --> 02:20:26.076 But, and going back to, to the question why, why did, why does she feel safer with the, the, the, um, the white MAGA man rather than her friend? 752 02:20:26.096 --> 02:20:39.956 That's the same question we have to a- we have to ask when it's a, when it's a Black situation and a girlfriend is telling her man, her friend, "Your man ain't a, a, he ain't nothing," but the, the girl goes back to the man and then distance herself from her friend. 753 02:20:40.316 --> 02:20:52.356 Or, or di- like, and like we're all in a system where, like, just like we're, we're born to be transphobic, we're born to, we're born to be misogynistic to ourselves, we're born to- Mm-hmm... 754 02:20:52.376 --> 02:21:09.716 we're born to bi- betray ourselves to be close to a man rather than listening to ourselves, rather than prioritizing our relationships with other women, our sisters that really have our best interests at heart, for the most part, 'cause there's some hating assholes, like Miss Thing in the comment with the blonde wig. 755 02:21:09.976 --> 02:21:13.836 But- I see. I mean, she's staying in there. I mean, it's like, girl, if you don't wanna... 756 02:21:13.896 --> 02:21:24.076 I mean, you is committed The thing I don't like about the Laverne situation is we all, people act like they haven't done some form of that in their own lives. Absolutely. 757 02:21:24.086 --> 02:21:37.996 Maybe not to that extreme, but we have all, for those of us who date men, who have the affliction of being attracted to men, we all at some point or another have betrayed ourselves to be closer to a man. 758 02:21:38.026 --> 02:21:41.396 And you can go down a list of reasons for whatever you wanna do it. 759 02:21:41.436 --> 02:21:56.904 For me, it was because I thought for the longest time me having a man made my womanhood more validAnd I put myself in a lot of situations I didn't need to be because I thought that that validated my realness until I came to the re- realization that no man is gonna save me. 760 02:21:57.324 --> 02:22:09.534 No man is going to do every... But like, we all have been there, and coming at Laverne the way that people did, people refusing to see the humanity in her- Yes... and her womanhood. 761 02:22:09.534 --> 02:22:15.514 And it, it wasn't like she was saying she was still with the man. It wasn't like she was saying, "Oh, I'm with him, and I voted for Trump too." 762 02:22:15.584 --> 02:22:26.804 Like, there was a beginning, middle, and the end, but the way that people came at her, and that's just like, okay, you don't see the humanity in her, but you also don't see the humanity in yourself too. 763 02:22:26.824 --> 02:22:37.604 Because we have all been in that situation before, whether folks wanna admit it or not. I- the- and that's why I shared my story that, you know, I have also been in a situation that I had to wake up to. 764 02:22:37.664 --> 02:22:42.224 Maybe it wasn't, you know, as, uh, maybe blatantly- Right... obvious, but yeah. What's that, what's that, Aaron? 765 02:22:42.364 --> 02:22:55.144 Can I just say before y'all move on, I- was she saying you make her feel unsafe, or was she saying that what you were saying about her is portraying her as unsafe? 766 02:22:56.384 --> 02:23:10.454 She was saying that I made her feel unsafe, and un- like, like basically that nothing, that basically I would be in perpetual judgment of her not being woke enough. Okay. No problem. 767 02:23:10.484 --> 02:23:18.754 But for me, it was just holding accountable to the s- simple fact that it was me, her, L- uh, Jen and Michael- Oh, all right... all, all kind of people. We on t- all different networks. 768 02:23:18.804 --> 02:23:26.824 You could turn the channel, and we all talking this kind of talk, and then all of a sudden you act like you don't know what

we- I'm talking about. I don't... S- um, and I'm sorry to cut you off, Aaron. 769 02:23:26.864 --> 02:23:38.264 No, you're not cutting me off. No, no, you're fine. I don't... I wonder, I wonder if... She said unsafe, but what I wonder is, does she really mean 770 02:23:39.264 --> 02:23:53.014 y- you're m- instead of making me feel unsafe, it- you're make- you're making me feel guilty because I'm- Yeah... choosing the thing that is, I'm doing the thing that is convenient. Yeah. 'Cause it, it, it's a, it's a... 771 02:23:53.044 --> 02:24:03.824 So it's not necessarily... It, it's like you're holding a mirror to me, forcing to acknowled- you're forcing me to acknowledge the thing that is, like, inconvenient that I, I don't wanna acknowledge. 772 02:24:03.884 --> 02:24:19.284 So I'm, I'm just curious to know, like, because if it was something where she truly felt unsafe with you, it sh- like, did, like, did the f- like, did the friendship or the, the interaction, like, s- cut off immediately after that, that? 773 02:24:19.344 --> 02:24:28.044 Or were there other interactions before it kinda trailed off? I, I, I think there were just multiple interactions for, for me and Laverne. Like, I think it just... 774 02:24:29.004 --> 02:24:36.724 And that's why I didn't wanna have the conversation immediately, ori- originally, uh, initially there until I had talked to her and, like, had, like, a really heart-to-heart conversation. 775 02:24:37.144 --> 02:24:58.184 Because it wasn't about her dating a white man, it was about her internalization of white, of white suprema- it was the way that she was changing in front of my eyes to me to, uh, to prioritize her privilege and career over the work that she came in talking, the talk that she came in talking, the b- about all of us being free and liberation for all of us. 776 02:24:58.224 --> 02:25:08.964 Now, it was about her survival, but the thing is, is that I don't really appreciate people using words like survival in a Hollywood world. That's not survival, that's privilege. 777 02:25:09.464 --> 02:25:17.764 Like, survival is what the girls are going through, uh, on the streets trying to pay rent and trying to find a place to sleep. Survival in Hollywood is a different game. 778 02:25:17.804 --> 02:25:30.984 That's, that's you wanting to participate in privilege. I did not necessarily survive in that space because I did not wanna play along with the things. I'm talking the talk and the things that, that it came with a cost. 779 02:25:31.564 --> 02:25:41.924 She knows very well that playing to whiteness, uh, like she said in those previous times, so there are times I told her that that comes at the cost of cutting my feet off. 780 02:25:42.384 --> 02:25:51.944 Because sometimes we're talking about things, and they're choosing your form of lightweight advocacy over this girl who's saying it this way. 781 02:25:52.364 --> 02:26:03.404 Just like there was a moment I spoke about where I felt Laverne was, uh, dead ass

wrong for talking about a Black trans woman who was, uh, speaking up about the Jess Hilarious situation. 782 02:26:03.464 --> 02:26:12.914 I don't know if you remember, there was a Black trans woman who just went in and was saying, "You don't own womanhood," uh, to Jess Hilarious. "You don't own womanhood, and you don't, uh, own the experience of... 783 02:26:12.964 --> 02:26:23.144 As cis women don't own womanhood, and they don't own the experience of having periods." Now, she didn't say that she was having the periods and blah, blah, blah. She was just speaking facts on behalf of trans men. 784 02:26:23.744 --> 02:26:32.124 But then Laverne comes in and does this whole post and everything, and she kinda, like, says something that, like, undermines where the girl is coming from and, and all this thing. And I'm like... 785 02:26:32.524 --> 02:26:38.024 And I commented under that post and I said, "Well, good thing there's more than one way to fry a fish." 786 02:26:38.384 --> 02:26:47.164 Or something like, I said it's like, "Good thing there's more than one way," and I just, after a while, after a certain time, I'm not trying to yuck anybody's yum. You know? 787 02:26:47.384 --> 02:26:57.684 I, I remember in Pose, uh, there's a line that Angel says that, uh, Indya Moore says when Pray Tell is trying to get them all to go down to the protest, and it's like, "What y'all need to be..." 788 02:26:57.764 --> 02:27:07.874 You know, she's like, "Uh, well, I got a, a, a modeling gig," you know, the next day or something. She had something going on. He was like, "You need to be doing this." She was like, "So what? I, I can't... 789 02:27:08.144 --> 02:27:17.164 Uh, we all being chased by the same demon. I can't stop and, you know, I guess experience something nice for myself," or whatever, that, that sort of line. 790 02:27:17.204 --> 02:27:33.904 And I, I, I understood sort of the space of we're all under such whatever, it's understandable that we would want to have moments where we experience, you know, certain things. But I just... 791 02:27:36.304 --> 02:27:48.768 I want, I want Laverne... Like, when Laverne, before I was famous, uh, I was one of the producers of the Trans 100, uh, that we had in Chicago. And, and La- Oh, I was gonna say, Laverne-And La- yes. 792 02:27:49.008 --> 02:27:58.508 And Laverne Cox came to be the speaker at the first year. This was her fresh, about, about to be in Orange is the New Black. Now mind you, like some people saw her as this ce- ce- celebrity and all the different things. 793 02:27:58.568 --> 02:28:11.028 Yeah, uh, she had just did I think season one or it was on or something. And I made sure, as one of the producers, I made sure that she felt like the star that she was. I made sure she, even when we had the small... 794 02:28:11.168 --> 02:28:18.108 She had her own room. I was like ro- I was just doing all the things to make her feel like the star because she i- she was our star, you know, in the, in the community. 795 02:28:18.728 --> 02:28:28.838 I want girls to get their things and to g- you know, to get the rewards and whatever. Every success that Janet Mock had, I suc- I celebrated like it was my own. Mm. 796 02:28:28.848 --> 02:28:39.268 Because I knew that this was only gonna do great for open up doors for our community and different things, and I'm a smart bitch. I'm gonna open up my own opportunities. So I never asked them for anything. 797 02:28:39.308 --> 02:28:43.178 The only thing that I expected was that 798 02:28:44.088 --> 02:28:54.868 as Black trans women who had been in this movement, going to Creating Change, doing all these different things, and know we've been at the bottom of the totem pole, so you had to learn intersectionality in ways that other people don't even understand it. 799 02:28:55.708 --> 02:29:04.218 So I did not understand how somebody was talking this talk with me all of a sudden was moving in an individualistic way. She was saying 800 02:29:05.428 --> 02:29:14.818 words like, "You know, we wanna open these doors in diversity and make sure that I'm not the only one." But she was also moving in ways that I felt like was ensuring she was the only one. Mm. Mm-hmm. 801 02:29:15.568 --> 02:29:18.598 And so for me, I kept calling Laverne, and I told Laverne. 802 02:29:18.928 --> 02:29:29.048 Kept calling Laverne at different times with different scripts, different show ideas, different things that I thought maybe we should come together to do this, do that. She could never see how we would come together. 803 02:29:29.148 --> 02:29:43.768 Um, y- it, so like at some point I felt like she don't even see me as a colleague. Like, and it, and girl, if we in the same rooms and acting in the same things, girl, 804 02:29:46.248 --> 02:29:54.568 all I'm saying is we colleagues. Right. I bring, I bring it to the set. You bring what you bring. I'm bringing it to the set, so we are colleagues. 805 02:29:54.648 --> 02:30:00.448 And I have executive produced things that have had four Daytime Emmy nominations with King Esther. 806 02:30:00.528 --> 02:30:15.668 So to s- to not see me as somebody that you could executive produce things with and create things with on the level, but you still here by yourself. So now that Hollywood has now closed the door on you too, like I left. 807 02:30:16.588 --> 02:30:25.288 I said, "If this is the way y'all gonna be, call me when you ready. Call me when you wanna be serious about some shit, about this, that, and the third. Until then, I'll go find something else to do with my time. 808 02:30:25.328 --> 02:30:33.088 I'll go find something else." Now they're not, uh, ex- now they're not even seeing Laverne right now, so now she's tapping on the community door. 809 02:30:34.688 --> 02:30:50.268 I, I wanna, I, I wanna ask a question somebody put in the comment, and I'm curious to know the answer to this. Yeah. Aaron, why did you have to read Clean Slate off the bone? [laughs] Okay. 810 02:30:50.318

--> 02:31:01.748 I would like to know the answer to that. [laughs] Um, oh gosh. First off, I wanna say wow, um, the girls, right, um, to all of that. 811 02:31:01.988 --> 02:31:19.448 But I read Clean Slate off the bone because before I am a lot of things, I am a consumer of media. Um, I grew up in front of a television. I grew up on the computer. You know, I, I have a dark sense of humor. 812 02:31:19.748 --> 02:31:33.848 Um, I can really enjoy just, you know, a wide array of different types of genres and all and what have you. Um, one of the genres I do love and/or have loved or grew up loving was the sitcom. 813 02:31:34.408 --> 02:31:41.968 Um, I am very familiar with All in the Family and The Jeffersons and Norman Lear's work. 814 02:31:42.408 --> 02:31:50.908 Norman Lear, even though, you know, he allegedly stole from a Black man, which makes sense 'cause Good Times, where the hell did he come up with Good Times? 815 02:31:50.938 --> 02:32:15.448 [laughs] Um, but Norman Lear was putting out content in the world that spoke to the condition, um, via people like Archie Bunker, you know, being this kind of, um, polarizing figure, um, that got to speak to, got to speak from the perspective that people maybe thought they understood but really didn't. 816 02:32:15.828 --> 02:32:30.728 So you know, The Jeffersons in my opinion still has one of the most, if not the most culturally competent episodes about trans women- They were ahead of their time, yes... to this day. 817 02:32:31.348 --> 02:32:39.368 Like that episode, they did such a beautiful job of explaining things without outright saying it. 818 02:32:39.448 --> 02:33:02.408 So when Laverne and Norman Lear, when it was first announced that Laverne was going to do a show, um, where she is like the long lost child come back, you know, transition, getting with her Black father, I was like, "This is literally going to be phenomenal. 819 02:33:03.028 --> 02:33:17.948 Like absolutely phenomenal." I was like, "This, the, the scholarship, the conversation, so much could come out of this story." I saw Clean Slate, and I wanted to cry. 820 02:33:17.967 --> 02:33:31.588 [laughs] Right. I literally was- Her, her acting is so good... I just... Look, I'm not gonna read Laverne, but it is the, for me, 821 02:33:33.208 --> 02:33:43.948 I was like, first off, this is not a Black show. It's Black people in this show, but this is not a Black show. It didn't, it felt like Disney Channel trans... 822 02:33:44.108 --> 02:33:52.118 It just, it was a joke because- I mean, it, it felt, it was a w- it felt like to me like a white green-lit show, meaning like- It was. That's what-... 823 02:33:52.128 --> 02:34:00.338 and she got her show, she got her show, right, but from the white people perspective. It wasn't, she wasn't in the writers' room. No. No. There wasn't even one Black- She wasn't even in the writers' room... 824 02:34:00.488 --> 02:34:09.008 or three or four Black trans people in the writers' room. I was confused. Like, I just-It, to me, it was like the last... 825 02:34:09.268 --> 02:34:16.068 You know, when they're like showing like from inside the coffin where they're hitting the, um, nails- The n- was it last nail, you said? 826 02:34:16.268 --> 02:34:33.847 I was like, that to me let me know more than anything that the trans wave had passed, you know? Mm. Mm. Yes. It was so cl- it was so... There was nothing, um, risky about Clean Slate. 827 02:34:34.428 --> 02:34:43.728 Um, there was nothing that challenged introspection with Clean Slate, and to me, the subject matter demanded that. 828 02:34:44.148 --> 02:34:53.438 So the fact that the actual series was some weird thing and Laverne was like popping pussy for some like white dude- [laughs]... 829 02:34:53.448 --> 02:35:05.128 with a fucked up haircut, and like we had to watch some white dude and his like white like thing- Daughter. Mm-hmm... and like, it just was like, what the fuck? This is like... I- I'm so sick... 830 02:35:05.188 --> 02:35:17.648 And this is even a gripe of mine with Pose, like where I'm like- In the beginning... this is on HBO. I'm sick of the TV-MA and stuff. We're not talking about shit that is- Well, that's why, did you see Veneno? 831 02:35:18.448 --> 02:35:32.528 Oh, Veneno is lit. Oh, Veneno was T. Veneno- Veneno made Pose look like a Disney show... Pose made Pose look like a Disney show. Yeah, La Veneno was C, bitch. Yeah, because, because ballroom, like- Veneno was T... 832 02:35:33.068 --> 02:35:46.388 ballroom to me, like oh my gosh, this is HBO. This is like, we can get into it. We can throw a little power in there. We can throw a little fucking the- You can have murder, girl... crazy in. 833 02:35:46.468 --> 02:35:58.978 'Cause girl, 'cause girls, and the girls and the boys be going to jail over some real stuff. Like there is scammery, there is murder, there is sex, there is... Like, this is not TV-MA. And like, you know- I agree... 834 02:35:58.998 --> 02:36:09.528 it goes back to my read of Clean Slate is this, this desire to sanitize that which cannot be sanitized. 835 02:36:09.568 --> 02:36:20.908 Like our experiences, our stuff with our families, this is not like fodder for Disney Channel. Like this is, we gotta take it there. I agree. 836 02:36:20.917 --> 02:36:30.808 'Cause for to open that door and say- But dude, can you see that that's what they were going, is that they felt like they were gonna bring this conversation into Middle Cor- Mer- uh, Middle America's- Girl... 837 02:36:30.818 --> 02:36:40.308 living room with this show? No. That show was so... The boy. It was, and it was hollow. Clean Slate was extremely hollow. 838 02:36:40.788 --> 02:36:52.848 I absolutely knew we would not be seeing a season two, because I could barely make it through season one. [laughs] Who the fuck would wanna see a... What, what even is the, the second season of this? 839 02:36:53.388 --> 02:37:04.708 I felt like with Clean Slate, and this is also a thing, because

I'm one of the girls, I didn't read Clean Slate off the bone. I'm a consumer. I gave a review of something I watched. 840 02:37:05.248 --> 02:37:15.008 Like, and that is the beauty of more trans people being able to create, is I don't have to say, "Wow, that was amazing." [laughs] I can say, "Bitch- [laughs]... what the fuck was this?" 841 02:37:16.168 --> 02:37:26.598 Girl, 'cause that's what, that w- that actually came up in my conversation that will, uh, come later, uh, with, uh, Jordan Jay, who is the founder of BTFA. Oh, yes. Yes. What's going on? 842 02:37:26.648 --> 02:37:43.338 And in my, uh, conversation with Jordan, Jordan basically said that we need to get it to the place where Black trans people can make bad art. Wow. Mm. Be- [laughs] 843 02:37:43.628 --> 02:37:51.878 Well, well, and that there be more and more- Opportunities... opportunities for us to grow from that. 'Cause you know, again, white people get to make bad stuff and keep going and keep going and keep going. Mm-hmm. 844 02:37:51.888 --> 02:38:00.748 They get to fail at career. You know, when we have a Black show, when we have a trans show, everything is riding on that show to be successful. We can't have a bad show. You know what I'm saying? 845 02:38:00.788 --> 02:38:09.988 And so, you know, I will say like as a consumer as well, you know, I, I, I definitely just, I wanted to support, you know? 846 02:38:10.048 --> 02:38:17.408 So I definitely, I watched it to support, especially, you know, coming up for Emmys and things like that. Um- Oh, that wasn't getting no Emmy... 847 02:38:17.448 --> 02:38:27.748 but, no, but I, but I d- you know, if I, you know, just to be honest, like it definitely, it, it, it was a disappointment to me as well. Like it di- it wasn't, it didn't hit where I thought it could hit. 848 02:38:28.028 --> 02:38:43.328 It wasn't for me. I was... That's the other, that is the other thing. Who is the audience? Baby. The, so- She watched the Jennifer Hudson show. [laughs] You are a singer? Really? 849 02:38:44.648 --> 02:38:57.738 I didn't know. [laughs] I- No... y'all not gonna do her like that. That was the J Hud crowd. That was the Passions crowd. That was the fucking- Passions used to be my shit now... fucking whatever the hell. 850 02:38:57.828 --> 02:39:10.748 We not gonna come for Passions. We not gonna come for Passions. That- Passions was the soap opera, honey. Theresa- Oh. Theresa and Ethan So for me- Yeah... the highlights of Clean... 851 02:39:10.808 --> 02:39:20.008 Now I'm not gonna lie, I'm somebody that binges shows a lot. It was very hard to get through those first two episodes, 'cause it just, something was missing. 852 02:39:20.088 --> 02:39:31.888 The highlights of Clean Slate to me were, um, George Wallace and Telma Hopkins. I feel like Telma Hopkins does not get the flowers that she- Absolutely... deserves. But I feel like their season... 853 02:39:32.028 --> 02:39:44.388 I don't wanna, I'm not reading Laverne. I am, I hopef- I am hopeful that because of this journey that she's on, that, and some of the roles she takes, that she's able to go deeper. 854 02:39:44.808 --> 02:39:47.718 She, Laverne has this thing where everything is just, 855 02:39:48.888 --> 02:40:03.968 from my opinion, I'm not reading, they're, everything is just over the top and, "I'm a trans woman and you misgendered me," and bla- And I'm like, "Sis," like- Laverne's about to unfollow me. 856 02:40:04.108 --> 02:40:19.662 She just blocked me, girl... saying this is somebody that is going to support her, that wants to support her, that wa- that watches TV. It- like every character is the same. It's, it's the same. It's the same. 857 02:40:19.662 --> 02:40:34.292 It's the same voice, it's the same blonde wig. It's like, it's, it's- My favorite role of hers was, uh, Inventing Anna, though. Oh, when she played the, um, the, the gym instructor. I don't feel like she ate. 858 02:40:34.352 --> 02:40:45.612 But it was still her Laverne-isms in there. It was still her... It was still... But at least she got to b- um, have a Black man as a love interest in it, like- Well, I will say this... 859 02:40:45.792 --> 02:40:56.932 people were wanting 'cause- Regardless of what you think about it, I'll say this. Regardless of what you think about it, here's the situation. Laverne stayed booked, and- True... 860 02:40:56.952 --> 02:41:08.212 Laverne from, from The Uglies to, like, all kind of- I loved her in The Uglies. [laughs] Now, I will say I hated that movie, but I thought that she was the best thing about it. 861 02:41:08.292 --> 02:41:16.252 Like, she- Yeah, I want her to be in Marvel. Like, I- She looked beautiful. She- Yeah. Laverne is one of our girl- we wanna see Laverne have the roles and have the range. 862 02:41:16.312 --> 02:41:29.212 Like, Angelica, we wanna see you, like, have the ra- and look, Angel, we've seen you do... Like, you were literally a fucking alien in American Horror Story. Like, I want that for... Look, I wanna see- Yeah... 863 02:41:29.222 --> 02:41:44.652 that commi- like, I wanna see you as the Meryl Streep. But it's just like, everything is giving, it's giving like, like drag queen, like- But can we, can, can I, can I call out something without being called a hater? 864 02:41:45.212 --> 02:41:53.992 We, we ha- we having grown woman discussion. Okay. So we've already talked about what it means to cater to whiteness. 865 02:41:55.852 --> 02:42:12.771 So we know that our country, uh, loves symbols of change- [laughs]... versus actually giving y'all what y'all want. Mm-hmm. And so I feel- Yeah. I hear you... 866 02:42:12.802 --> 02:42:22.301 so, I feel so often we get situations, and I felt like this was a situation with Laverne where Laverne became a symbol for the trans community. Mm. 867 02:42:22.412 --> 02:42:30.912 Uh, and it was a, it was like everywhere, it was like, that's how you knew transness, Laverne, tran- You know? And it was like you could see it coming. And so 868

02:42:32.232 --> 02:42:43.072 she seemed to have a lot of opportunities, whether the acting is good or bad, whether you think it's that, but it, it is also her ability to navigate those spaces. Yeah. 869 02:42:43.192 --> 02:42:52.242 I think part of that business, part of what we have to understand about that business is it's a- also about are you willing to go along with things. You know what I'm saying? Right. 870 02:42:52.242 --> 02:43:03.042 Like, can you, can you just shut up about white supremacy for five seconds? You know what I'm saying? Or whatever. A- and, and so I don't think it always came down to the best actor. Mm. 871 02:43:03.152 --> 02:43:13.312 I think, I think it came down to a lot of times Laverne's moving in a space, she's gotta deal with the E! Network, that they're gonna develop, you know, certain things with her. She's doing her thing. 872 02:43:13.392 --> 02:43:18.802 She's had a talk show where, where, you know, a bl- a, a, you know- I'm not-... all these different, all these different things. 873 02:43:19.012 --> 02:43:31.152 And folks, meanwhile, trans people are still being, uh, berated, still, still being made a fool of, still being killed, and still being all these things. But Hollywood and folks wanna make this symbol, like Barack Obama. 874 02:43:31.472 --> 02:43:46.132 What do you mean? Racism's over. You have a Black president. And apparently Laverne is supposed to be the president of the trans community. And when, when folks are like, you know, to me, there was a trade-off. 875 02:43:46.552 --> 02:43:56.052 And to me, I always put it like this with, um, what's her name? Um, Ariel from The Little Mermaid. Oh. 876 02:43:56.212 --> 02:44:08.352 I really feel like it was some trickery that goes on when it comes to us as Black trans people, people who have, you know, powerful voices. The system always wants to co-opt your voice. They always wanna co-opt it. 877 02:44:08.392 --> 02:44:19.272 And you... And I had the audacity to think that my voice is more valuable on its own than co-opted by whoever, Ryan Murphy or whoever wants to, uh, to, to have this thing. So 878 02:44:21.632 --> 02:44:36.152 I feel like in order to be a part of Hollywood, you have to trade in your voice to be a part of that world, and then they give you something back that seems like it fits, you know, or whatever goes with the thing. 879 02:44:36.172 --> 02:44:45.592 But you can't say that. Don't talk about this. Don't do this, and don't go there. You automatically know. She automatically knew- Mm-hmm... that she had to stop talking about certain things. 880 02:44:45.632 --> 02:45:00.752 So all I'm saying is, is that there were conscious choices that were made that were not about full liberation, but more about my ability to participate. Right. Mm. What you think- I, I don't know. I literally... 881 02:45:00.852 --> 02:45:17.652 I'm thinking of all of this, and I, and I... Like, her being a symbol especially I think is, I think is so unfair, um, what we are expected to do because of who we are, you know? 882 02:45:18.092 --> 02:45:35.472 And I think Laverne, Laverne didn't have to speak out in the way she did, um, ever. You know? Laverne coulda just rocked it. Like, yeah, and just kept going. 883 02:45:36.032 --> 02:45:51.952 Um, because I imagine that it probably sucks to just wanna act, you know? Like, I just wanna be a actress. And I get- What do you think-... breakout role, you know? And it's like, 884 02:45:53.192 --> 02:46:04.492 okay, but now I can't just be a actress. I gotta be like TS President Cox, and now they about to put me in every TS role they can imagine, but I still am not gonna be able to... 885 02:46:04.872 --> 02:46:19.444 Like, have we seen, besides Clean Slate, like Laverne actually put out something that feels-... real and like have like the depth that she so clearly has? I don't think so. 886 02:46:20.024 --> 02:46:29.564 Um- No, but, but I mean, but, but also I hear what you're saying there, but this is where I interject. Mm-hmm. Because I'm like, I think that somehow because of... 887 02:46:29.624 --> 02:46:42.704 I, I think s- for some reason people must think I don't love acting enough, I don't respect my craft enough, that I don't want to be an actor enough, and it's not that. You understand the game. 888 02:46:42.764 --> 02:46:44.963 You understand the game under... It's just not about... 889 02:46:45.384 --> 02:46:56.724 It's just because your, your, your art can't feed you, you have to, you either have to navigate in the game or you have to get out and figure out how, how to make it, how to transgress it and make it work for you. Yeah. 890 02:46:57.184 --> 02:47:09.894 Yeah. I love acting. Mm-hmm. I love it. I'm talking about the most I love is being on stage- Mm-hmm... because it's so live and real and people can hear my breath- I love Roxy... 891 02:47:09.894 --> 02:47:19.164 you know, in, in the silence and different thing. When I did Roxy, you know what I'm saying? Like, and just in those silent moments before I started crying, all these are... Like, I love acting so much, 892 02:47:20.284 --> 02:47:32.884 but I now know that my privileges won't protect me- Mm-hmm... and theref- like therefore all the things that now people, they were shutting up in Hollywood, they were afraid. Now everybody... 893 02:47:32.964 --> 02:47:37.644 No, ain't nobody making money. And now everybody gotta speak up and blah, blah, blah. But it's like 894 02:47:39.244 --> 02:47:53.334 your character and integrity are tested in times to show what you really are about, and it's not, it's, it, I feel like to me it's less of a judgment and more of an observation. Yeah. I agree. Ju- I agree. 895 02:47:53.464 --> 02:48:06.204 I'm not, I'm, I'm, 'cause I'm really trying not to come down on the judg- it's, it's more about do you think you're the only one that loves to act? Yeah. Yeah. That I, I, I definitely, yeah, I agree with that. 896 02:48:06.314 --> 02:48:18.324 And you know,

we've talked about integrity, the price of integrity, um, the price of being willing to be like, "I see what's going on here and I'm gonna say that," you know? 897 02:48:18.464 --> 02:48:32.684 Or, "I'm not gonna go along with you all, so now I can't go [laughs] so now I can't go at all anymore, you know, because I'm not willing to fake the funk." Um, there is, I mean, there is something to be said 898 02:48:34.204 --> 02:48:44.444 about that having to be the choice, you know? And- Absolutely... thinking- 'Cause we should be able to be free... Yeah. And thinking that making the choice will work out for you. 899 02:48:44.544 --> 02:48:53.204 I g- there are a few people that come to mind, you know, with this thinking that, "If I am alone, you know, I can do it alone. I can do it," or whatever. 900 02:48:53.234 --> 02:49:03.004 And they like, the same way you been in here alone, they gonna throw you outside alone, you know? So yeah, I, I see that. I see that. I think I just... I don't know. 901 02:49:03.464 --> 02:49:10.924 I think maybe, you know, Laverne just followed me, so I got a, you know, I got a little more, um, I think maybe grace for her. 902 02:49:11.304 --> 02:49:22.684 [laughs] Y- You- YouTube Academia says, "You have the capability of being a trans Angela Bassett, yet you've never heard a political utterance from Bassett. You want to act or be MLK. It's a hard game." Okay. 903 02:49:22.904 --> 02:49:38.044 Is this YouTube Academia and this George Washington we have? Because it's enough. It's a troll. It's a troll. It's a troll. Yeah. I mean, I, listen, I'll, I'll just respond to that by saying this: um, this is why 904 02:49:39.444 --> 02:49:55.404 I think it's beyond time that we have a real conversation about the difference between Black liberation and the concept we're being sold of Black excellence, because there are so many celebrities and stars selling y'all 905 02:49:56.564 --> 02:50:04.624 pictures of Black excellence as if we've made it somewhere, we've done some things, and the reality is they made it somewhere. 906 02:50:05.464 --> 02:50:19.474 They got through the doors, and they are w- operating in a way to make sure they can stay in those good graces and telling everybody behind them, like Steve Harvey told Monique on, uh, on his show, "Well, we can't do this, and you know you gotta do this this way," blah, blah. 907 02:50:19.484 --> 02:50:32.223 Wait, I thought we was... What was we doing this for? I thought we was doing this for liberation, now we doing this just to hold on to a piece? Mm-hmm. And that's what this is about, is most people in this game are... 908 02:50:32.264 --> 02:50:39.004 That's why nobody's been speaking up about all this stuff, is because everybody's trying to hold... We're not liber- nobody's free. Nobody's actually really free. 909 02:50:40.144 --> 02:51:25.804 And that's why nobody's, uh, speaking up about, um, Eiler T- um, Taga, Eri Paga, because it's a, like, the, like, it, like, no shade, all

of this, the Black liberation stuff, like, it- it's important, but until we have a real conversation about capitalism and how capitalism works bec- it, because all of us feel like we could be rich one day, that's why we're willing to, when we get the money or when we think we're gonna get the money, we shed all, all of our identity politics, and it's no longer about us, us feeling like we're Black or us feeling like we're trans or us feeling like we're queer, and it's about us feeling, us being rich or thinking that we're rich and creating validation with our other rich friends. 910 02:51:26.064 --> 02:51:36.974 That's why it was so many of, um, Black folks that voted MAGA. That's why it was so many gay motherfuckers that voted MAGA. Like, we have to have a conversation about classism- Absolutely... 911 02:51:36.974 --> 02:51:53.564 and how insidious it is, because people know as long as they spout out Black excellence or support everybody Black, they, they know that we see ourselves in them, but they don't necessarily see ourselves in us, and they're willing to exploit us every single time. 912 02:51:54.204 --> 02:52:06.884 Yeah. Every single time. So until we are talking about capitalism and how people are wil- willing to sell other Black people down the, the river to make a, a profit, then, then all of this liberation and libera... 913 02:52:07.214 --> 02:52:13.754 And I have to check capitalism, like how it shows up in me, because I'm a bitch-I like my things. 914 02:52:13.914 --> 02:52:25.574 I like luxury experiences sometimes, but I don't want it at the expense of somebody else, or I don't want it when the money could be shared evenly so everybody gets a piece so nobody has to suffer. 915 02:52:25.854 --> 02:52:32.404 But in capitalism, somebody has to suffer. Somebody has to be on the bottom when it can be spread evenly and we can all have it. 916 02:52:32.474 --> 02:52:50.674 But just, just this blindly believing that Black people, especially Black celebrities, have our best interests at heart in 2025, when we've seen how a lot of them have been abusive with their money, Eddie Dogger, um, R- And not just with their money, they're abusive with the people in their lives... 917 02:52:50.814 --> 02:53:06.114 Right. So, like, we, like, we really have to have a conversation about how just, just, um, betting on Black with, with no value assessment or no really checking people's, um, values, how that is harmful to us as well. 918 02:53:06.494 --> 02:53:11.494 And also I wanna put this in because they're about to consider, um, overturning Obergefell. 919 02:53:12.094 --> 02:53:24.834 I don't wanna hear nothing from gay motherfuckers talking about we need to come together and we put- need to put differences aside, 'cause when same-sex marriage became laws of the land, a lot of y'all said, "Fuck the movement." 920 02:53:24.954 --> 02:53:29.054 Y'all took your money out of these equality organizations. I was in Maryland. 921 02:53:29.394 --> 02:53:36.934 Equality Maryland shuttered because people took their money out of the fucking organizations and they said, "Fuck all of the racial work that y'all doing. 922 02:53:37.034 --> 02:53:48.874 We got our- we, our civil rights are over" And a lot of y'all asses became fucking Republicans and started voting Republicans, and we were at the Supreme Court last year, it was a group of y'all that had an organization called Gays Against Grooming. 923 02:53:49.374 --> 02:54:00.094 So when y'all lose y'all's same-sex marriage and all your rights get away, don't look to Black trans women to, to carry the labor or to give y'all the talking points to try to get it back. 924 02:54:00.474 --> 02:54:06.324 Because y'all, because y'all thought y'all money would insulate y'all and save y'all. Absolutely. And y'all are not special. 925 02:54:06.374 --> 02:54:12.784 I mean, I'm gonna still be here in the fight and all the different things, but I'm just not gonna be fooled to be in the front row with HRC- Mm-mm. Nah... 926 02:54:12.794 --> 02:54:22.914 knowing that they're not, they don't really see it for none of us like that. We- Um, I know that Alonzo, uh, David, I think when he, you know, when he became the, uh, the- Alfonso David... 927 02:54:22.924 --> 02:54:28.434 Alfonso David, when he, uh, one of the things I, when I met with him, he, one of the things he told me right away was, "They took they money." 928 02:54:29.134 --> 02:54:36.994 Like, so when the Black men came up in there, the, the white gay married, everything, they took they money and ran. So they weren't, you know, getting those same things. 929 02:54:37.424 --> 02:54:48.154 And, and I'll s- and I'll say this j- and w- and I'ma, uh, shut this down too, 'cause, you know, these organizations aren't in our best interests lately either. Oh, please. Um, what's that? 930 02:54:48.914 --> 02:54:58.684 I was about to say, can I jump in somewhere before you say anything? Yeah. Come on. I know. I keep trying not to interrupt, you know? I know- No, please do. No, we need to interrupt, girl. 931 02:54:58.734 --> 02:55:04.194 I was, I was gonna say, you know, the target is always our imagination. 932 02:55:04.694 --> 02:55:21.954 Um, that is what we have to, that's what we have to rebuild for people is, is the ability to imagine something beyond what we are now navigating. Yeah. I think even before capitalism and I, 933 02:55:24.094 --> 02:55:39.714 I think we're all unserious, first. That's where I start, right? I start with we're all unserious. I think it is so much easier for us to share our thoughts and our things than to really be in, in it. 934 02:55:39.874 --> 02:55:55.454 I'm talking about in it. Yes. You know? Um, I, I really think we don't think about our planet. We, like, we don't actually think about our relation- our relationships as human being, um, to the planet. 935 02:55:55.594 --> 02:56:02.674 Like, we're talking about all of these things in the future, and I'm constantly like, "It's

very hot this summer." 936 02:56:02.804 --> 02:56:17.014 [laughs] Like, it's, it's hotter this summer than it was two summers ago, and two summers ago, it was hot as fuck. It was. I'm like, we are... We don't have the time that we think we have. 937 02:56:17.594 --> 02:56:31.114 Um, I was at a family reunion and a, a family member was like, "You know, the Earth isn't gonna be here." And I was like, "The Earth is not going anywhere. Um, our ability to live on the Earth is what is going-" Right... 938 02:56:31.154 --> 02:56:43.124 to cease to exist. Right. And I don't think we're taking any of that seriously. And the, one of the biggest things- I agree... that let me know, um, that we were doomed, just kidding, but not really- Yeah... 939 02:56:43.124 --> 02:56:46.523 was the pandemic. Yes. Yes. 940 02:56:46.574 --> 02:57:25.014 We are so, um, we are so, like, I mean, fat off of comfort to the point that wearing a mask, even the left, I will never, ever forget how the left was justifying not masking, was justifying stopping virtual events when disabled people said, like, "This is the first time we're able to really engage in these spaces because y'all are now, um, there are now..." 941 02:57:25.674 --> 02:57:35.194 What is the word I'm looking for? Um, accommodation. Accommodations, yes. "There are now accommodations for us to be in the room." People didn't wanna continue masking. 942 02:57:35.274 --> 02:57:47.874 People didn't even want to imagine what could it look like for us to live in a world where a virus like this won't destroy us. What kind of things do we need to shift? 943 02:57:47.934 --> 02:58:02.394 I was in a movie theater like, "Damn, it's been a whole pandemic, we can't get a exhaust fan for shit going outside?" You know? I... There are things that we skip over, um, um, in pursuit of... 944 02:58:03.414 --> 02:58:12.454 I'm not saying this about any of us. No, but I get you. Mm-hmm. I, these, these things, um... Fuck, I lost it. I'm so sorry, y'all. The accommodations. 945 02:58:12.534 --> 02:58:28.532 No, but you're, you're, I, I hear what you're saying is that-You're saying that, you know, we, you knew that basically even as we are looking at, at each other like are we about to do something? Like 'cause- Yes... 946 02:58:28.532 --> 02:58:38.122 fascism is rolling in or whatever, and the reality is, like you said, people have gotten too comfortable off comfort. You know- And they will not trade it for the world. 947 02:58:38.162 --> 02:58:44.632 And what people do not know is that they know this. Right. They sold you your comfort. They're keep... They're, "Hey, what you want? 948 02:58:44.722 --> 02:58:55.922 What else can we get you to stay there and just shut up and just let us do what we are doing?" Mm-hmm. So it, but the, so the key is getting uncomfortable. But that, but w- comfort is the hallmark of being American. 949 02:58:56.592 --> 02:59:01.982 Yeah. That's the hallmark of being American. We, we c- we can't live without our comforts. Mm-hmm. And we have... 950 02:59:02.042 --> 02:59:10.802 And that, and that is to me, like Larry from that last night is saying in the comments, I think it's common sense that people have lost. I've seen that a lot. 951 02:59:11.202 --> 02:59:25.882 And you know, um, Mariame Kaba said something that completely blew my mind. Um, she was like, "We shape the common sense. Common sense is not just something that people have. We shape the common sense." 952 02:59:25.962 --> 02:59:41.862 And I wonder, like, how are we preparing people for loss, and how are we building up our, um, our ability to risk things that we never felt we would have to risk? 953 02:59:41.922 --> 02:59:48.922 We still wanna live alone, you know. We still, we still want to be at the top of our careers. 954 02:59:48.962 --> 02:59:59.762 We still want, um, the, the spoils that this place has to offer, and that's even us on this call, so I think- I was about to say you reading the fuck out of me, sis. 955 02:59:59.902 --> 03:00:03.152 No, sis- No, I- But, I mean, but I, I get what you're saying. I... Of course. 956 03:00:03.162 --> 03:00:09.422 Listen, I've been in a different place for a long time, 'cause I've always told the girls, "Why do you think them white people in Friends was living together?" 957 03:00:10.862 --> 03:00:19.282 You can't, like, you can't start out and think that you gonna have a loveseat and a dining room table. Who you inviting, sis? What food is you buying, sis? 958 03:00:19.342 --> 03:00:28.021 Like, when in this market you need roommates and stuff in the beginning and, and things like that, but we can't get along, uh, with each other long enough to be roommates with each other. You know? 959 03:00:28.062 --> 03:00:37.242 But, but we don't have to. Right, right. Because, because the idea is that we shouldn't have to. Right. There are 70 of us here. We all need 70 homes. 960 03:00:37.342 --> 03:00:44.182 We need 70 individual homes, and we need the carte blanche to say what we want to happen on all of those. 961 03:00:44.542 --> 03:01:07.262 Like, we are not prepared to lose this place, and I think that is why I always have grace, you know, for those of us who are maybe failing more visibly, because there are ways that all of us have traded in, you know, our, our actual... 962 03:01:07.782 --> 03:01:17.822 I don't know. I keep losing words. It's late. Yeah, you're right. We, we traded in our power for, for something that is, is really less than what we... in exchange, yeah. Yes, because... And, and that is the thing. 963 03:01:17.982 --> 03:01:35.782 So for me, you know, it is, it is... It's easy for us to know things, you know? It's easy for us to have an understanding of things. But when it comes to the nitty-gritty, when they say, "Bitch, the air is toxic, 964 03:01:37.522 --> 03:01:54.622 y'all need to mask not just to protect yourself, but to protect your children and they, they friend at school and they parent," and people said, "I want no

parts." Right. "I can't breathe in a mask." Right. 965 03:01:54.832 --> 03:02:01.062 Bitch, it's not about you, though. Right. We couldn't, we couldn't land on that. 966 03:02:01.522 --> 03:02:16.282 So for me, I'm like, we are a deeply unserious population of people drunk off of our own knowledge, written in books that the government has allowed to even be available to us. 967 03:02:16.712 --> 03:02:32.322 And I think this is a moment that every single one of us, we have to really sit with the reality of this time and what we are really, really willing to lose. It's not just love and MAGA dick. 968 03:02:33.482 --> 03:02:47.722 It's a lot of stuff that we have to say, "I am okay with losing this for..." Once there was a- Absolutely... something, something yonder, whatever. I couldn't remember the song. I'm malfunctioning, y'all. Forgive me. 969 03:02:48.002 --> 03:02:59.482 Uh- No, you good. You good. It's, uh... Yes, what did she say to get back home more? Once there was a way to get back home more from that, uh, movie Sing. Jennifer Hudson, she was like a hippo or something. 970 03:02:59.542 --> 03:03:11.282 It was beautiful. Um, but she was talking about getting home more. Like, if we really, if the destination is really liberation, we gotta be willing to run like we do if the house is on fire. 971 03:03:11.402 --> 03:03:15.342 No, you ain't grabbing your favorite motherfucking slippers, bitch. You running. 972 03:03:15.762 --> 03:03:32.042 We're getting out of here, and I don't think any of us are really there yet, and I think we have to be willing to quit playing these games- Yeah... about who postures the best. Yeah. Yeah. 973 03:03:32.102 --> 03:03:45.322 Because at the end of the day- Yeah... it is about what are we really, really willing, willing to risk for what it is we talk about. We have been having conversations. I love to talk, even though I'm malfunctioning. 974 03:03:45.382 --> 03:03:49.521 No, listen, listen, no, listen. And I need to, I need to, I need to moderate this- Oh... because every time- I know... 975 03:03:49.562 --> 03:03:56.782 every time I go over like this, then I have to wait, because we then gone three hours and they, they take a long time to process the situation. Oh, okay, okay. I got it. 976 03:03:56.862 --> 03:04:07.742 Lu- luckily I, luckily I'm rec- I'm recording locally, so I'm gonna have my stuff at my fingertips. So I, I, I did right this time and hit record locally, so I'm good. Um, but, no, this has been a dynamic conversation. 977 03:04:07.822 --> 03:04:14.342 We obviously hit so many different topics in one night. We... This just means that you girls have gotta come back, and we, we've gotta... 978 03:04:14.382 --> 03:04:34.186 You know, so when we, when, uh, we're talking about some of the other issues, I gotta tap, tap you girls in because I think, like you said, we, um-And also people need to see us and understand that we, like you're talking to, you got a lawyer over here, you got somebody in, in social justice and movements that are not just about trans issues that have been involved in so many different things. 979 03:04:34.226 --> 03:04:46.006 So we're not just expertise or experience in trans issues, we're experience in multiple things in the movement. And so that's what I'm here to do as well is like lift your authority in all other conversations as well. 980 03:04:46.066 --> 03:04:57.046 So I hope to have you back chiming in on all the things. Of course. Have me back. Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, thank, thank you both for joining me tonight and keeping it real, and also for defending the girl as well. 981 03:04:57.086 --> 03:05:06.586 You know, things got a little rowdy out there. Um, thank you so much. Queen Fosta. [laughs] Yes, we love you, girl. You good there? Yes. Okay. So, [laughs] 982 03:05:06.646 --> 03:05:16.886 so, uh, so I'm gonna remove the girls from the t- the chat, but thank you so much everyone. Um, this was such an amazing, uh, conversation. 983 03:05:17.506 --> 03:05:32.106 Um, I did not get to really like show off a little bit and show you like my different camera angles that I had set up here, but don't worry because I had those cameras recording the whole time, so I'm probably gonna mix in a couple of those angles, uh, when I go to actually edit the footage. 984 03:05:32.806 --> 03:05:41.886 That is all for us tonight. We have talked a lot. Queen, you stayed to the end of the show. For a shady, for a shady bitch, you stayed here for me. 985 03:05:42.446 --> 03:05:48.746 You, you must love this shady bitch because you stayed the entire show and was in that comment section very, very active. 986 03:05:48.826 --> 03:06:03.426 I appreciate you doing all those things, but I would like for you to slow down a little bit and take more responsibility for how you're showing up, um, and stop projecting onto other people 'cause there's no shade that was intended with you when you initially came on. 987 03:06:03.466 --> 03:06:18.566 But you definitely brought some energy on there that was not, uh, created by this platform. Um, so thank you all. We will talk with you all soon. Have a great evening. We will see you all next week. 988 03:06:21.866 --> 03:06:47.806 [outro music]