Episode 45 - Flying into the Storm: Early War Bombers, with Chris Sams의 전체 녹취록

Lady, it is your lucky day. 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.800 Like I see you're glazing over after a while, but yeah, yeah. 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:26.639 Anyway, so yeah, that was fun. 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:40.639 Uh, keeping with a nautical and keeping with a Norwegian theme, um, the other day I went to see the SS Hestmanden, which uh is currently or was then a mowered up on the quayside at Newcastle upon Tyne. 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:48.319 And the Hestmanden is the last surviving Arctic convoy ship from the Norwegian merchant fleet from Northreship. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:50.800 And it's still seaworthy, obviously. 00:02:50.879 --> 00:03:05.120 Um and it took part in the Liberation Convoy, which was a small convoy of ships which sailed from Norway on the 17th of May, I think it was, um, to Shetland and then all down the north coast of Scotland and to I think they're going to Liverpool as well. 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.759 Um, just to sort of commemorate the Shetland bus trips. 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:17.919 It used to go backwards and forwards um in the fishing boats between Norway and and Shetland, and the contribution of the Norwegians to the the Arctic convoys and side warfare generally. 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:19.599 But it was really, really interesting. 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:21.120 It wasn't that big really. 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:34.400 And I thought, God, I wouldn't have liked to be out in you know the middle of a storm on the Atlantic in this, but yeah, uh but it uh the stories and stuff were absolutely heartrending because so many of the crews were just teenage boys, and I'm talking like between 14 and 18. 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.919 And oh my god, it was yeah, it was absolutely heartbreaking. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.400 But really good experience, and so glad I went to see it. 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:51.120 And apart from that, I've been doing um preparation for my talk to the Royal Aeronautical Society this coming Tuesday about uh bomber command in the Battle of Britain. 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:55.840 Well it's supposed to be that, but it's actually going to sag into mind lane course, but yeah, anyway. 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:56.159 Yeah. 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:57.280 So we'll see how that goes. 00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:57.840 Looking forward to that. 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.520 Vicky Taylor's on the same, on the same um schedule. 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:02.960 King Luftwaffe, I imagine. 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:03.840 Absolutely, yeah. 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.680 And Paul Beaver and another chap whose name I can't recall at the moment as well. 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:08.879 So yeah, looking forward to that. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:10.560 So let's get on with it, shall we? 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.400 Yeah, there's quite a few themes there actually linked to our guest today. 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.480 Um, who will we introduce? 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:17.439 Chris Sams. 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.199 Chris studied history at King Alfred's College, specialising in the Luftwaffe and the Axis powers at war. 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:25.199 Always one for all things boats. 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.639 His first book was German Raiders of the First World War. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:37.279 His second book, which is what we're gonna be talking about a lot today, was entitled Flying into the Storm, RAF Bombers at War 1939 to 1942. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:48.000 Uh, I first met Chris at a great war group conference, and I had read Flying into the Storm during my MA in gosh, 2015, 10 years ago, crazy. 00:04:48.160 --> 00:05:00.079 Um, and it certainly played a big part in my growing interest in the early war bombers, which yeah, I I mean, I think Chris, we we spent a large chunk of the conference talking about all things fairy battles, Hamdons, Blenheims. 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:09.040 So I'm very excited to say that you're joining us today to share your thoughts on the role of RF Bomber Command in the early days of the war, and also a little bit about the Luftwaffe as well. 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.959 So, Chris, it's wonderful to have you join us. 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.680 How are you doing? 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:12.800 I I'm good, thanks. 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:13.839 Thanks for having me on. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.759 And um saying that, when you write, you always hope that someone's going to enjoy it. 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:18.319 So thanks. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:20.720 You're literally the only person who really enjoyed the storm. 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:21.920 So Really? 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:27.120 I think there's only there's been a couple of people, but yeah, it's it was really good to hear that someone's at someone enjoys your work. 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:28.800 So no, I really appreciate that. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:29.439 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:38.560 Very, very much I've got a a warm spot for this for this era and the early war bombers that I think is totally overshadowed, you think, of bomber command, 42 onwards. 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:40.160 But uh yeah, not exactly. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:47.279 Chris, you must be my absolute ideal podcast guest because we get ships and we get bombers. 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:48.480 I mean, what more could I want? 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.199 This is just like absolutely in my element, it really is. 00:05:51.360 --> 00:06:01.360 Just before we began recording, I was just saying I cannot believe that Chris and I have never actually met in person before, given our many overlapping interests, but hopefully we we will rectify that in the not too distant future. 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:06.959 So anyway, Chris, can you tell us uh where your interest in the early war bombers actually comes from? 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:08.879 Well, basically I'm a mercenary. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:13.839 Will history for money after I all think raiders my publisher Yeah, well, yes. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.199 We've got to eat, right?

00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:15.920 Exactly. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:21.279 But uh when I finished writing Raiders, my publisher phoned me up and he said, What do you want to write about next? 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.519 And I said, I've got absolutely no idea. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.680 And he said, Well, there's there's a bit of a market for early war bombers and the RAF. 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.079 And I thought back to when I was a kid, I'd I'd built I'd built a blend in four, as ever I think everyone does. 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:37.680 And I have a real soft spot for the fairy battle, as well as things that are broken and unloved. 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:39.920 And I thought, yes, this is right up my alley. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:42.720 I don't like glamorous stuff like Lancasters and Spitfires. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.920 Let's let's grab and I grabbed it with both hands and ran with it. 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:46.639 Excellent. 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:48.319 Really enjoyed it. 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:55.199 So do you want to just give us like a little potted what flying into the storm exactly is and and and what it covers? 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:57.920 Oh god, yeah, it covers quite a broad stroke. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:03.680 But it it follows the majority of bomber aircraft that were in the RAF on the 3rd of September 1939. 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:11.680 The Blenheim, the Hamden, the Whitley, the Wellington, and the battle, the use in the campaigns in in Europe through to the Channel Dash in February 42. 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:19.279 I also cover because Bomber Command is just the stuff based in England, but I thought, well, what about Blenheim's and Wellington's abroad? 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:24.000 So I also look at the deployment to Libya, Greece, Burma and Malaya. 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:30.879 And there's some things that I'd I'd never heard of, such as Haddock missions, which it takes up like a a page in the official history. 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.120 And I thought, why has no one ever heard of Haddock missions? 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:34.240 I mean, they're absolutely amazing. 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:42.959 You get Whitleys flying through the Alps, and the Alps are the mountains that are higher than the ceiling of the of the Whitley, so they're flying through the dark up Alpine passes. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:44.160 It's just absolutely amazing. 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:51.839 You also get Blenheim supported Blitzkrieg in the desert against the Italians with a certain amount of meddling from a certain Prime Minister. 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:59.680 I won't go into a Kenneth Mars-style rant about Shert Shell, but I also tried to give a an overview of strategies of the campaigns and how they played out. 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.120 But also more importantly, I really like the personal experiences of the air crews. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.079 I think that makes the story more human and more relatable. 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:06.720 Absolutely. 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:15.680 You can sit around, talk about dusty maps and aircraft designs where you're saying Sergeant Johnson was under fire and the engine blew up, and it just makes the whole thing more interesting. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:16.160 Yeah. 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:16.720 Absolutely. 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.000 It's quite a sort of tricky balance to get right that, isn't it? 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:30.079 Sort of relaying sort of historical factual information, interpreting that, theorising about it, but then also combining the human stories with it as well. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.839 I think it it's quite an art, isn't it? 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.080 Absolutely, especially when they get things wrong. 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:34.799 Yeah. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.600 You get um even in the reports, people make mistakes. 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:37.919 Yeah. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.840 Just like uh in the Battle of Britain ones that say they were engaged by Heinkel 112s. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.679 It's like, uh no, you weren't. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:44.559 Interesting. 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:49.440 Or in in Mala Malaya they talk about being attacked by Stukers, which is absolutely bizarre. 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:50.320 Gosh, yeah. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:51.919 They must have had quite a range. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.159 Or a bit lost. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:55.519 Or a bit lost, yeah. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.600 Can you tell us a bit about the about the nickel raids first of all? 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.480 And then you also have a chapter on gardening, don't you, good man? 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:04.879 One of the few people who've actually written about it. 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:05.759 Uh fantastic. 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:08.080 Tell us about nickel raids first, though. 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:09.279 Oh, yeah. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.879 So nickel raids start on the first night of the war. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:17.120 So uh 3rd of September 1939, because we're a few days after after Poland. 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:25.519 You get ten Whitleys taking off from 51 and 58 Squadron, and the the main aim of the of the mission is to drop leaflets over Hamburg, Bremen and the Ruhr. 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:40.960 The RAF are really hesitant to bomb cities, mainly because they're worried about the bad press that they're killing civilians, but also that there'll be a retaliatory raid against London or more accurately France, and the French are very keen not to upset the German Air Force. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:49.679 And so they figure, well, we could drop leaflets because they implore that it it's worked for them before in Mesopotamia and in 1918 against the Austro-Hungarians. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.519 So they think, well, if we drop some leaflets, it might try and get people to question what they're doing. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:58.480 And also there's the unwritten threat of, okay, it's leaflets today,

tomorrow it's a brace of bombs. 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:06.559 It has the same effect as an air raid, because if you think about it, the Germans look up, they see a aircraft going over, you've got to presume it's dropping bombs. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:15.919 So the air raid sirens go off, the searchlights go up, everyone stops work if they're working late, goes to the shelter, sleeps broken, but you're not actually bombing or killing anyone. 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.399 So it kind of has that extra effect. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:26.480 They also ask the gunners to look out and plot defences like searchlights, factory buildings, flak batteries. 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.399 They're also very cons interested in the idea of the Germans having dummy towns. 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:35.440 They think that they're gonna they've built these sort of um makeshift towns that will attract the RAF's attention. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.720 They'll fly to those and there'll be a massive trap of anti-aircraft fire. 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:40.320 So they're trying to chart those as well. 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.919 And also looked after airfields and keep an eye out for aircraft. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.559 It's um it's not an easy mission. 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:48.559 Conditions on the flight are pretty awful. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:53.360 You've got strict navigation corridors set up so that you don't accidentally fly over Holland. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:53.679 Yeah. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:59.120 On one occasion, uh squadron leader Murray gets shot down by the Dutch because he strayed over Dutch aerospace. 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:00.480 They're very, very defensive. 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:04.320 So you have to follow these navigational routes, which is really difficult in the dark. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:09.120 On one occasion, it was minus 26 degrees Celsius in the aircraft. 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:10.559 There's no visibility. 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:20.799 Parts of the uh the Whitley of Flight Sergeant Winton almost crash uh he almost crashes it because they gets the whole airframe gets covered in ice, and that includes the and the weight from the wings, bring it down. 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:22.399 I think it's about 10,000 feet. 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.320 One of the engines stops working, they can't use the wireless because there's sheet ice all over it. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.799 The forward gunner is found, passed out in a position in his position, buried in snow. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:32.159 It's just horrific. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:41.519 And between the 3rd of September and the 31st of January, you've got 123 sorties, but with the loss of only four aircraft, which is really good for aircraft at this time. 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:47.600 But in the new year, you get Wellingtons and Hamdons getting involved, and the furthest they fly is Warsaw, which is really quite impressive. 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:48.320 Pretty long. 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:49.600 That's a long way, yeah. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.480 Yeah, for two-engine bombers. 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.720 But uh, gardening, let's let's get to the important one. 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:56.000 Don't don't send me off, guys. 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:57.200 I had no idea. 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.159 Well, yeah, I I had I'd never heard of it. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.799 Um I mean, I was this as I was studying this book, it w it was a learning curve all the way. 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.480 And uh in the official history, there's a whole section to gardening. 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:11.840 I was like, oh my god, why has no one ever written about this? 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:20.399 So it's got like the detail of how all how the missions that were flown, what aircraft they were using, which squadrons were involved, the types of mines, how the mines worked. 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:29.360 And um I managed to get like four or five thousand words together, and I thought someone should come by and write a book about this one day, and maybe I will one day, and then completely forgot about it. 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.679 But Jane has, so go and go and buy her book. 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.799 If you have if you're listening to this and you haven't bought it, go and buy her book and read it. 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:35.039 Yeah. 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.679 It wasn't paid for the plug, honestly. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:38.159 Yeah. 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.080 Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.120 It's such an endlessly fascinating topic, I find. 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:53.200 But again, it combines that whole thing of the sort of maritime and and uh and the sort of aviation as well, which is just right up my street. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:53.600 But anyway. 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:55.440 Talk about the early part of the war. 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.960 It'll be good to talk about the Battle of uh Hilligaland. 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:00.960 So can you tell us a little bit about this? 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:02.480 Oh gosh, yeah. 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:06.240 Uh this was not a good day for the RAF at all. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:10.080 Um it was for the German press ministry, but I'll get to that at the end. 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:14.639 Uh so there's a lot of pressure in the phony war for the RAF to do something. 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.080 As I said, they can't attack non-military targets. 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:23.440 The only target that is 100% non-military is the German fleet in port. 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:27.840 Because even if you hit the dock facilities, technically that's a military target. 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:31.519 And also, honest God, we were aiming at the ship and we've hit the hit the port. 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.200 And if some civilians got killed, that sorry, but we were aiming at the ships. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.480 It's not like you're aiming for a factory in the middle of a residential area.

00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.799 And so they try to think about the best way to do it. 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:47.039 And obviously, you can't have a fighter escort, but in the 1920s, there is the strong belief that the bomber will always get through. 00:13:47.200 --> 00:14:02.240 This is sort of started by Doe and his theories of aerial warfare, and this is then continued by Stanley Baldwin, and the Germans have kind of shown through the Spanish Civil War that modern bombers can smash their way through if you're dealing with obsolete fighters, but that bit's always forgotten. 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:08.159 And so they get a group of Wellingtons together, and the Wellington at this point is considered a heavy bomber. 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:14.559 I mean, she's a thing of beauty, but um, she can absorb a vast amount of damage with a geodexic hull um airframe. 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:16.399 Also, they've got a hell of a lot of firepower. 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:29.360 The rear turret's got four 303 guns in it, and the REF believe if you fly in a group of six aircraft, you're all covering and you're all covering each other, you will be able to see off any fighter attack. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.320 And so on the 17th of December, Wellington's from 937 and 149 squadron take off. 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:46.080 Twenty-two aircraft in total, flying in um groups of mostly six and a four, and uh they get right out across the North Sea, and they catch the Germans napping. 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:54.720 The navy radar in the in the Hilgelandbeit reports to the Luftwaffe and says, Well, we've got things flying over, we've got something flying towards us, and the Luftwaffe ignore it. 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:11.840 The Luftwaffe radar reports it, and the piece of paper goes missing into the filing cabinet, and no one really sort of forwards it on, until the Wellingtons are flying over the ships, circle round, drop their bombs, don't do a lot of damage, but and then they sort of head off. 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:18.159 That's when the Jagdwaffe defend descend on them with 109s and 110s, and it gets messy. 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:24.879 In total, 12 aircraft are shot down out of the 22, 57 airmen killed for the loss of two 109s. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:25.519 Yeah. 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:33.759 Um they found that the um they f the Wellington had a very nasty floor at this point in that it didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks. 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:40.480 Um, so if you hit them enough times, they just burst into flames and exploded and went down with everyone. 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:45.120 A couple of the squadron formations had got a bit broken up during after the attack. 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:50.960 I think it was squadron leader Guthrie and Hugh Williams, the two sections spared off and they left other aircraft behind. 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.080 Post-battle, the RAF have a look to see what's gone wrong. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:57.519 And it can't be a planning problem, it can't be an aircraft problem. 00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:58.799 So who's to blame for this? 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:00.320 Hugh Williams and Guthrie. 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:01.279 Both of them are dead. 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.279 They they died in the in the in the action. 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:12.080 But because they'd spared off and left their formation disorganised, they they they they'd allowed the Luftwaffe to make it take a take advantage of this. 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.960 Harris later comes on and says that this isn't fair. 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:22.480 He says that that these guys had never seen the enemy before, they'd never been engaged, and they'd never really had any formation flying training. 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.960 So it's not really their fault. 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:36.559 For the Germans, this becomes great because they've just held in Berlin, they've just held a press conference to admit the scuttle it scuttling of the Graf Spay to the world. 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.559 And so they've just had this whole, yeah, yeah, one of our warships has gone. 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:41.440 Yeah, it's awful. 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:47.279 And as everyone filed out, someone from the propaganda ministry came running out to the World's Journalists said, quick, come back in, come back in, come back in. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:52.399 And then they told them about how they decimated a massive RAF raid over the fleet for the loss of two ones. 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:53.919 And of course they overstated the numbers. 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.399 I think they claimed they shot down like 40 aircraft or something. 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:09.599 The RAF do car continue to carry out armed reconnaissance over the North Sea, but they they keep suffering losses here and there, even though they decrease the numbers, and eventually they sort of realise daylight bombings without escort is not really a good idea. 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.279 Now, we've covered the battles of Norway and France and the AASF and also the role of Bomber Command in the Battle of Britain in previous pod episodes. 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:25.359 But I wondered if there's anything you wanted to say about the role of Bomber Command in the summer of 1940. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.680 It's a massive topic, this, isn't it? 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:29.039 Oh yes. 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:29.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.319 I mean, I think you guys covered it really, really well. 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:39.279 So I just think the bit best thing to do is just to reiterate that bomber command is still very much in action and it isn't all about the fighter squadrons. 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:44.079 It's very easy to think, oh, you know, Spitfires and Hurricanes, but the bomber the plenums are going into action still. 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.400 Very battles are going into action still. 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:52.079 You know, everyone thinks after the Battle of France,

no one's using battles, but they're using battles to attack the ports. 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:59.519 Uh well into October 1940, they also give them to the foreign squadrons before they give them proper aircraft, uh, which is a bit unfair. 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:07.920 Uh but you also have like uh Churchill kind of demands that the the Blenheims go out and carry out operations in the same way that the uh Luftwaffe have. 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:22.960 And so you get the Alberg raid where all but one of the attacking Blenheims gets shot down, and the one that didn't get shot down had turned round halfway because of engine failure, and they were going to prosecute the pilot for cowardice, but he dies before dies in action before he can, which is absolutely awful. 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:38.240 Also, the the attack over the Meuse crossings, the RAF, the British Air Component, and the ASF are literally throwing the kitchen sink at the German uh pontoons and boats, but the the Luftwaffe just controlled the skies and it just becomes a bloodpath. 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:47.440 Because that's the one where ugly Barrett, that's his nickname, that's not what I call him, but he uh locked his office door and apparently had a had a bit of a cry, which I completely understand. 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.279 I would have been shattered as well. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:55.599 You've also got to look at the amount of work that the bomber command would have had to have been doing during Sea Lion, should it have occurred. 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.200 Spitfires and hurricanes are useless during Sea Lion, it's all going to be about the bombers. 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.519 They've got to get in, they've got to do as much damage to everything that's going along. 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:14.880 Um I think it'd be it would be easy to say that the casual general reader of the Second World War aviation would say that the bomber crews did nothing during the Battle of Britain in 1940 and it was all down to the fighters, but it's really, really not true. 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.279 Yeah. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.200 I mean, we we've talked about this before, and it was my MA dissertation. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:25.680 The more I was reading about what Bomber and Coastal Command, shout out to Coastal Command as well, at this point we're doing, is incredible. 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:33.039 And they were, you know, that they're in the the role of honour, the official Battle of Britain role of honour in 43 when it's Britain, and then subsequently just disappear. 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.599 And it's just like, gosh, let's talk about this. 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.000 This is massive, this is the Battle of Britain, you know. 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.640 Well it's all to do with that kind of falling out of favour of isn't it of bomber command. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:43.200 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:43.680 Yeah. 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:45.200 Yeah. 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.599 Yeah, and he talks about them all in it as well. 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:52.000 Yeah. 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:52.799 Yeah. 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:53.839 Exactly. 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:54.799 Moving on then. 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.880 Chris, can you tell us the story of the Lancastria? 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:10.480 I think this was the sister ship to the Cameronia, which I will mention later on when we w when you finished t telling us about about the Lancastria, because I've got a little story about that as well. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.559 But let's t let's hear about the Lancastria. 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.880 Yeah, it's before the Wilhelm Gustav, I would have said that Lancastria was one of the worst maritime disasters in the war. 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.319 It's absolutely horrific. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:26.000 So Okay, everyone thinks the Battle of France ends for us at Dunkirk, but it doesn't. 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.279 You end up with British forces still fighting backwards. 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.039 You've still got the AASF still in action, well, vaguely in action. 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:38.720 They're still trying to get their ferry battles up and attack, but it's becoming more and more futile. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.839 And so they're falling back to the west coast of France. 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.160 And mainly they end up at Saint Nazir, where it's getting absolutely chaotic. 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:53.279 You've got soldiers, civilians, airmen, sailors, Poles, French, British, everyone that can is trying to get away. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:01.680 And the Lancastria is a 1920s Cunard liner, which in peacetime can carry 1,300 passengers. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:06.079 They're literally filling these passenger ships up with everyone. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:16.480 And they're they reckon the estimates they don't know how many people was on were on board when she set sail, but they the broad figure is somewhere between four and nine thousand people. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:25.200 Conservatively they reckon it was five and a half thousand, but they they can't be entirely certain because no one's checking paperwork. 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.839 Anyway, they um as they go out, the Luftwaffe attack. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:39.359 And one Junker 88 drops three bombs on her, one of them going down the funnel, and she rolls over and sinks in 20 minutes. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.160 There's 900 survivors. 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:47.440 So even if there was 5,500, you're still looking at about 4,000 odd people dead. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:59.839 Well the water fills with oil, and then there's people struggling for life against hypothermia, the tide, the poison from the oil, and it was the Cambridgeshire, the trawl of Cambridgeshire that picks up. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279 900 survivors. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.359 There are accusations of the Luftwaffe machine gunning them in the water. 00:22:05.680 -->

00:22:11.599 And I was weirdly, I was going to write an article on Lancastria for my substack and I started doing the research for it. 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:26.160 And I was listening to someone from a British nurse who um who was in Plymouth and she was treating some of the survivors, and she said that apparently the Germans dropped an incendiary bomb into the few fuel oil to set the alight. 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:28.319 But I've got to double check that. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:33.039 It sounds interesting, but as I said earlier, I want to be accurate. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.400 I mean I can put it in as a as a it as an accusation, but I don't know how true that is, so I need to have a look at that. 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.200 But it's um the loss of the Lancaster is a dark day. 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.200 I remember first reading about it and being totally heartbroken. 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:52.480 So with regard to the Lancaster, as I mentioned, I think the um Cameronia was one of her sister ships. 00:22:52.799 --> 00:23:02.079 My grandfather actually sailed on the Cameroonia when it was um a troop carrier in 1942, taking him to um North Africa. 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:17.680 And he often told me the story of how they were torpedoed not far off the shore off um a place called Bournob or Bon, which I think is off the coast of Tunisia, before they had time to disembark. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:28.640 And he always sort of played it down and said, Oh, you know, it it was nothing, you know, it was just uh uh slight damage, people going on ridiculous kind of thing, you know, trying to jump off the ship and all this kind of stuff. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:38.160 But I I made my men just make sure that they, you know, stood in their positions, which I if you ever met my grandad, you would you would understand that he was not a man to be trifled with. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.880 Um he he was a sapper, a royal engineer. 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:54.480 Well, after he passed away and I was sort of researching his story um in a little bit more detail, I discovered that the Camerooni was actually hit by a German, a torpedo from a German dive bomber, and it ripped a massive hole in the side of the ship. 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.119 I think it was something like 20 metres long or something like that. 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.480 And there was um a number of troops killed immediately and a number of others injured. 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.519 It was still seaworthy, managed to limp into port, but he'd never ever mentioned that bit. 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.880 Never mentioned it, which but yeah, that's just just how he was. 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:12.319 He never told you about the bad stuff. 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:16.880 He always used to just talk about the the interesting or the funny stuff, never about the bad stuff. 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.039 Anyway, right, let's uh press on then. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:27.920 So um one person I want to talk about, which we we spoke about at the convention, was Charles Lythler and his absolutely incredible story. 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.200 And I just wonder if you could share a little bit about him here. 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.240 Yeah, um Lytholder is a is uh he's a bit very interesting character. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.599 He's um he's famous for being the second officer on the Titanic when she sank, and the senior surviving officer. 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:50.079 For those of you who have only seen the film, he's the guy that points the gun at all the passengers and says, get back or I'll shoot you all like dogs, referred to by Billy Zane as a strutting martinette. 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:51.680 But that is Lytholler. 00:24:51.759 --> 00:25:01.920 And he goes on to represent the White Star Line at the American and British hearings and defends the actions of not only the crew but also the company on that night. 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:03.519 He comes off very well. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.519 You'd think that they'd make him a scapegoat, but I mean he actually went down with the ship. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:14.079 Uh, and he was but he got pushed out, he ended up sort of stuck against an air vent and a rush of warm air pushed him to the surface. 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:20.640 And then he managed to get take over Collapsible B, which was upside down and keep everyone on there as alive as possible. 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.400 But uh, as this isn't never mind the icebergs, I should really move on. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.279 Don't really want to go into too many details. 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.559 Only to say that he he did serve in the Royal Navy in the First World War. 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:36.480 He was first officer on the on the liner Oceanic, which was serving as an auxiliary cruiser, when she struck a rock and sank. 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:42.480 He then also commanded a destroyer and may or may not have allowed his men to shoot U-boat crewmen in the water. 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.559 He was also famous for bringing his yacht Sun down at Dunkirk with his son to try and get men off the beach. 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:56.160 And there is a story of one of the soldiers getting on, finding out this that he was Charles Lightola from the Titanic and trying to jump back into the water. 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.000 One of his colleagues grabbed him and said, Look, if he can survive that, he can survive this. 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:06.480 Interestingly, though, and I think this is where you wanted me to go, his other son, Herbert, was a Blenheim pilot. 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.319 And he was involved in the first RAF air raid of the war against the German fleet. 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:16.880 Fourth of September, force of Blenheims, Hamdons, and Wellingtons all take off to hit the German fleet at anchor. 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:21.039 German crews are pretty relaxed, you know, they're far away from England, there's no way they're going to

get attacked. 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.559 The war's in Poland, what's going on? 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.480 They've got washing hanging up, they've got men just leaning against the bars. 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.119 They see these aircraft approach, these three aircraft approaching, oh, the Luftwaffe are coming in too low again. 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.279 We should really oh hang on, they're shooting at us. 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:41.039 And they come in and drop general purpose bombs, which will do absolutely no damage to ships other than splinter the decking and kill the crew. 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:42.240 But that's that's about it. 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:49.599 They 110 squadron attack, go attack in a shallow dive, pass over the pocket battleship Shear at mast height. 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:54.960 107's Blenheims attack the light crews at Emden, but they come under really, really heavy fire. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.200 Flying Officer Barton shot down by Flak. 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:08.240 Another one of the Blenheims is caught in its own bomb blast, and Flying Officer Light Holler's heavily riddled Blenheim crashes into the Emden's deck, kills nine sailors, wounds twenty, but kills the entire crew of the Blenheim. 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.200 The Wellingtons do come in later, but they get bounced by Wingson. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:16.319 It's not a great engagement, it's not a not a great start for Bomber Command. 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:17.839 But it could have been worse. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:20.559 Yeah, that's really fascinating. 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:24.079 It's just really, really incredible. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:30.079 And I think in the newer Dunkirk film, Light Holler, one of the characters is based very heavily on him, isn't he? 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:30.480 Yeah. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.319 Yeah, I'm trying to remember who who plays it. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.119 Uh Mark Royals. 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.279 It's Mark Rylance, isn't it? 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:36.160 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:38.079 Yeah. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:44.799 Um and yeah, and I've just remembered he's played by I think Kenneth Moore in The Night to Remember, 1958 film. 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:45.440 Yeah. 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.720 Um, random things that I know. 00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:50.480 Of course he did. 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:51.680 Of course he did, yeah. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.880 Um so yeah, we we covered 1940. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.079 Um what are the light bombers up to in 1941? 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.759 And and could you tell us a little bit about circuses and shipping sweeps? 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:17.440 Well, the REF in 1940 failed to learn the key lesson from the Battle of Britain, which is that single-seat fighters operating on their bases will always be more effective than aircraft that are halfway through their fuel. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:23.039 Numbers be damned, you could have a hundred Mesh Smith 109s over London, they've still got to turn around at the same time. 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:39.599 And so we come up with the great idea of circuses, which is to fly over to France, we use a couple of bombers squadrons, Blenheim squadrons, to fly over with about six to eight squadrons of single seat fighters to kind of draw the Germans up and try and decimate the fighter squadrons. 00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:45.599 They you've got the Blenheims coming in at a reasonable height, attacking military facilities or factories. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.200 They usually do all right. 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:56.720 They don't tend to get bounced that much, but the REF fighters get absolutely decimated and slowly at first, but then and often the Germans just won't engage them. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:01.920 They'll sort of see on their radar sets that there's 50-60 fighters coming in and just go, nah, we'll let them go this time. 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.200 Often they'd hit them when they're on their way back, when their fuel's running low. 00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:11.359 And all those experienced pilots that survived the Battle of Britain, all those squadron leaders who've got aces, are all getting shot down. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.000 Talking of Kenneth Moore, Barder gets shot down on the circus. 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.599 I'm just thinking that, yeah. 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:16.400 Yeah. 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:20.640 And it just it doesn't do anyone any good, and but still they persist. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:26.480 You've also got the anti-shipping campaign, which starts to become more active in 1941. 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:31.839 The Bristol Beaufoot has to be temporarily retired because there's a major engine glitch. 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.480 And so they bring in a replacement aircraft for it, and that is the Bristol Blenheim. 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:37.279 Anyone heard of that? 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:39.440 So months, yeah. 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.240 I think they're kind of an obscure aircraft. 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:46.480 Yeah, the uh the Blenims come in and carry out the anti-shipping role. 00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:58.319 And they're flying in uh sort of they go out in formation but then split up to patrol to try and drum up and find enemy shipping, and they're coming down at like mast height to try and drop bombs on ships. 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:24.319 And at first they can be quite effective, a bit more effective than the Beauforts, unfortunately, but they um they do they do open themselves up to anti-aircraft fire, and the Germans start putting more heavy caliber guns on their ships and having flagships as escorts, and much like we had convoy patrol convoy escorts, they start having convoy escorts of 109 and 110s, and a solitary Blenheim coming in at mast height is pretty ripe target. 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:25.039 No chance. 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:32.799 One example is on the 15th of April 1941, the one squadron is intercepted by

fighters off Farsund, Norway. 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:34.000 They lose three of their aircraft. 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:40.000 107 squadron come in to attack the same convoy, they lose two of the six aircraft, including Wing Commander Birch. 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.079 A third wave of four from one one four squadron also attack this convoy. 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:54.240 They lose Wing Commander Robbins and two other aircraft, and at the end of the day, no vessels are sunk, only one 109 is lost, and the RAF lose seven aircraft, including two wingleaders. 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:55.200 It's very brutal. 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:56.240 No real game. 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.400 Anyway, that's one of my bugbears, but there we go. 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.480 So how did Luftwaffe defences change as as the war developed, Chris? 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.480 Oh, they they improve exponentially. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.799 In 1940, it's very, very basic. 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:16.640 And the Luftwaffe are very put off by the REF raids on their aerodromes. 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:18.559 So they increased flak defences. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.759 They've got the very, very good AT8, which is phenomenal. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.079 But the REF start attacking at night time, so there's not there's not much they can really do about it. 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:32.960 After the Battle of Britain, they're now available for defensive work because during the Battle of Britain the 109 pilots are really stretched. 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:38.240 They are involved in so many operations that as soon as you land you get told, right, you're going to defend the airfield tonight. 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:39.440 Oh no, I'm not. 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:44.960 But when the there's no offensive role for them, they can be used primarily in the defensive role. 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:49.440 And in 1941, you get the arguably the best iteration, the 109F. 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.720 I I mean I prefer the ML, but apparently the Friedrich is better. 00:31:53.440 --> 00:32:02.079 And then they get the Fokker Wolf 190, which starts to appear in in larger numbers, and these two fighters outclass everything the REF have got in 1941. 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:08.880 And it takes quite a lot of well, they capture a couple, and then um it takes a lot of work to upgrade the Spitfire. 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.640 But for a while they've they've got absolute uh fighter mastery. 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:18.319 They've got massive flat concentrations around the most bombed place in Europe, which is Brest Harbour. 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.319 These are augmented by the two battleships, Scharnhorst and Nice now, in 1941. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:31.200 And so they're able to fly throw up as many shells as possible, and they just bring uh Fresh 109 squadron down to sit in Sherbourg to help defend it from bomber command. 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:36.960 Big thing though is the Kambuber line, which provides the radar belt across France and Germany. 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:43.599 And it can tell you because whereas like later when the Americans come along, they fly in box formation, the RAF do the stream. 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:48.319 So once the line is broken, you're just going to constantly get aircraft passing over that stream. 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:52.880 And so once you know where they've gone, you can vector in night fighters to deal with them. 00:32:53.039 --> 00:33:04.559 And you've got the the one Meshsmith 110, although I think is underrated as a day fighter, just actually does so well as a night fighter, especially when they're being radar controlled, and they just come in and cause absolute havoc. 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.839 They do develop the Wild War tactic, but I'm not a fan of that one. 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:14.640 That one is where Hajjo Herman comes up with this great idea of we'll pick a city and we'll put all the fighters over that because that's where the British will come. 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:15.920 Some days he's he's right. 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.799 Often they're wrong, and all the fighters are in the wrong place. 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:26.960 Um they they do get exponentially better up until 1942, 43, but uh eventually they start to lose the technology war. 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.039 There really is so much in this book. 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:37.039 Um and two other things I want to quickly talk about is Greece and the Western Desert and what's learned at this point. 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.480 Can you tell us a little about what the RAF are up to in these campaigns? 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.000 Uh yeah, um I've condensed four chapters for But um so yeah. 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:56.400 I mean we tend to think the Battle of Egypt being in and Libya sort of just being the Africa Corps, Rommel, El Alamein, but it actually starts in 1940 as a defensive campaign because the Italians attack first. 00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:02.799 And what follows is a blitzkrieg-style attack by the British on the Italians, and it's really, really successful. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:09.039 Especially that if you bear in mind that the RAF in the region, they're they're really quite neglected because everything's going to the home island. 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.079 So Africa is always going to be second fiddle. 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:19.119 We'll send out what we've got when we've got it, but we need defend England, and then we were doing offences from here, you might get a couple of squadrons. 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:33.840 So there's only three squadrons of Blenheims in Egypt at the time, and the primary fighter defence is Gloucester Gladiators, which is quite quite handy because the Italians mostly have they've got the 79 bomber, which is pretty decent, and the main fighter is the Fiat Falco biplane fighter. 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.320 Interestingly, the Blenheim can outpace a Fiat Falco and it's got enough armour to

defet deflect a machine gun fire. 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:53.039 So the Blenheims, for once, are actually fairly safe-ish Air Marshal Longmore, who's in charge, fights London for supplies and reinforcement, and he's always blunt about his forces' abilities. 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.360 He doesn't he doesn't say, Oh yeah, yeah, we'll be fine. 00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:01.360 He does turn around to Churchill and goes, No, this is nonsense, this isn't going to work, which doesn't really go down well. 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:23.840 He's got a great uh commander of bombers, which is um Collershaw, as who's his Commodore, and he believes that with the three Blenheim squadrons he can still cause as much mayhem as possible, and they set up this really good army air cooperation and literally form a blitzkrieg to push the Italians out and then into Libya. 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:38.960 But by 1941, Churchill wants the bombers to be sent to Greece because you know Greece is an ally, we've got to try and stop the Italians and now the Germans, and Colishore and Longmore say, you can't do that, these are our most experienced pilots. 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.159 They they're really good. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.159 You're you were taking the sharp end of our wedge away right when we need it. 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.679 Churchill overrules them and the bombers get massacred in Greece. 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:55.199 Standard blitzkrieg, same as France, that they just get cutting them to pieces, and their airfield's bombed, and the sharp end of the wedge is blunted. 00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:00.639 Consequently, the Libya campaign starts going wheels up, and so they have to look for someone to blunt. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.400 So Collershaw and Longmore get sacked. 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:09.199 Air Marshal Tedder comes in, takes over control of the Desert Air Force, and literally there's already a perfectly working system. 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.639 He just gives the crews some more experience and he gets all the credit. 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:14.559 You know, everyone talks about Tedder's Desert Air Force. 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.280 Well, without Longmore Collishaw, it wouldn't have happened. 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:27.679 The big issue is when the Africa Corps turn up and they bring the Luftwaffe with them, and you get Mesh Smith 110s and then later 109s, and they do start taking a toll on the bombers. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:33.599 There's also I mean I'd not really thought about this, but there's an interesting problem with bombs in the desert. 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:42.480 If you drop a bomb in France or Germany or Kent, you get shrapnel, gravel flying up, and that does damage not only to people but to buildings and windows. 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.880 You drop a bomb in the sand, it throws up sand, which doesn't do any damage to anything. 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:48.480 So they're not quite as effective. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:56.639 They also struggle in

the heat quite a bit, like the perspex falls out and things, and the engines get clogged with sand, and they don't have the maintenance repair stuff at first. 00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:00.800 But they they the the bomber crews really do well with what they've got. 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.039 Chris, you finish the book discussing Malaya and Burma. 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.760 Can you tell us what the bombers are up to over there? 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:14.480 Yes, they get an even worse deal than the guys in Africa, because in 1940 nothing's going to happen in the Far East. 00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.880 So they've really not got much out there at all. 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:24.639 They do have a couple of Blenheim squadrons, and as 1941 develops, they are penciled to try and attack the Italians. 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:37.119 They're penciled in to attack the Japanese landing forces, and they similarly suffer sort of blitzkrieg-style damaging that the Japanese come in and bomb all their airfields and strike they've got superior fighters. 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:46.320 I mean the Blenheim's still pretty good, but the against the zero fighter and the types that the Japanese army are using, they just they can't really hold up. 00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:56.159 And if I can just quote one of uh 60 Squadron's navigators, he talks about one of the raids they do on the beach, and it was uh we attacked by flights, each flight choosing its own target. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:01.679 The killer greed in the squadron was one 8,000 tonne ship and three fully laden craft. 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.880 Two or three Blenheims decided to drop their bombs on the transport. 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:09.360 We followed in behind and could see that she was red hot inside with bodies sprawled all over the decks. 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:11.280 We decided not to waste our bombs on it. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:18.559 We dropped our bombs in a stick across them, but by the time the twenty second fuses had burned, the craft had moved some yards away. 00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:21.199 We could see the crews firing at us with automatic weapons. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.679 One of the boats overturned in the explosion which followed, and the others must have been badly shaken. 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:28.639 It was a near, a near hit, but particularly effective. 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:34.239 And then Malaya becomes, as I said, very much like the Battle of France, the enemy quickly gaining air superiority. 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:37.519 They decimate the defenders, but they continue to bravely fight on. 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.239 The Brewster Buffalo is a decent fighter, but it's it's again, it's not as good. 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:47.599 It's very much underrated, but against the zeroed and the army fighters it's just not as good. 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.679 Burma is even worse. 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:57.280 They they start to rotate some of the Malayan Blenium Squadrons to Burma to rest, only for the Japanese to invade there. 00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:06.960 The Japanese have also got all the defensive plans for Burma because a German raider called the Atlantis captures a ship off South Africa and they don't destroy all the paperwork in time. 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:13.119 And so the Germans capture this report about what's available in Burma and hand it to the Japanese embassy. 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:18.480 And the captain, I think his name was Roger, is one of only three Germans to receive a samurai sword from Japan. 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:22.639 The others were Goering and Rommel because he helped out their invasion plan. 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.320 How interesting to know that. 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:25.599 Yeah, that's super interesting. 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.320 The weather in Burma's not conducive for aircraft maintenance either, because of the amount of rain and heat. 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.440 And they've also found that the blenim leaks like a sieve. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:42.800 And one officer, I I don't haven't written down his name, he uh he put used to put an umbrella up in the cockpit to keep it keep water off his face, but the water ran down off the back of the umbrella down the navigator's neck. 00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:53.920 They they do bring in reinforcements from the Middle East, but again, the the Japanese attack is just relentless and the British response is is just too slow, which is not surprising because at the same time you've got El Alamein about to happen. 00:39:54.079 --> 00:40:11.920 The good benefit for the uh for the Blenham was that she had good armour, and they found one of the ways to escape Japanese fighters was to hit the deck and literally fly uh treetop level because a couple of the Japanese fighters had telescopic sights, so the pilot would have to take his eye off where he's flying to look down the site to shoot at the bomber. 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:18.079 Now, if you're doing 300 miles an hour at treetop level and you're not looking where you're flying, that becomes very, very hazardous. 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.159 So that was the the blends get out of jail card. 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:25.599 I think I mean we're always looking to talk about the Luftwaffe and the German perspective on things. 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:31.920 I wondered if there's anything you wanted to talk about the Luftwaffe during this the early war period, if there was anything else you wanted to add about them. 00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.119 Yeah, I try to be very careful when talking about the Luftwaffe. 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.239 There are a lot of gatekeepers and quote unquote experts. 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:41.760 And they if you excuse the pun, they will shoot me down in the comments. 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.719 So I'm gonna leave most of it to better qualified historians like Victoria Taylor. 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.119 She's much better at she'd be much better to talk about it. 00:40:49.199 -->

00:40:55.440 However, I am gonna throw out chapter two of my 20-year-old dissertation, undergraduate dissertation for debate. 00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:56.559 Bear with me on this. 00:40:56.719 --> 00:41:03.199 The reason the Luftwaffe collapses is not due to its own inadequacies, but because of the German army. 00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:13.679 They're so obsessed with the idea of flying artillery and constantly pooling the number of bomber fleet to form a schwer punk to knock out the enemy on a local level that they're not thinking of the strategic level. 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:17.039 And they're constantly berating the Luftwaffe for not having enough aircraft. 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:23.280 And then by 1944 there is a need for fighters, and they keep going on about well, we need bombers, why aren't you providing artillery support? 00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:29.360 So I'm I'm just gonna throw that out for for you for your listeners to to Mullover and uh not at me in the social media. 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:34.880 That was my that was 20 years ago when I was 25 years ago when I was younger and dumber. 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:44.960 Do you have any personal stories you'd like to share from your research or some things that might not have made that the final box that you had to leave out? 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:53.679 Oh, in my original plan I wanted to do some of the forgotten offences of World War II, like the Allied attack on Syria, which was supported by Plenums. 00:41:54.719 --> 00:42:01.119 And unfortunately time and space meant that it just went out the window, and so I never got around to writing about it. 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:05.760 And sometimes I'd like to go back and do it, but I don't think there's a market for just Syria. 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:19.840 Maybe in like five years' time when she's when the book's about ten years old now, but when it's ten years old and they asked me to do update it for the paperback, I might do a George Lucas Star Wars special edition flying into the storm with one extra chapter and editing out the bit where the Luftwaffe shoot it first. 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:23.679 Um story wise, there's some great ones. 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:28.719 Uh I ha I love the one about the Whitley that landed in France due to low level of fuel. 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:29.280 Oh yeah. 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:35.760 The crew get out and they approach some civilians and start chatting to them, but they realise these guys don't understand French. 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:44.800 Then they see a German policeman, realize they're completely on the wrong side of the border, have to run back to their Whitley, take off, just as a truck a group of German soldiers arrive on bicycles. 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.400 There's another one that's running low on fuel, and they they kind of ditch it. 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.360 The crew all jump out. 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.239 They call up, the pilot calls into the intercom and says, Right, everybody jump.

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.280 And um unfortunately the intercom's not working in the tail gunner position. 00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:02.480 So this Whitley hits the ground and pretty level, the gunner survives the crash, gets out, and thinks, oh my god, all my colleagues will be in the burning wreck. 00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:05.599 So he goes back in to try and rescue the crew, they're not there. 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:10.639 He gets rescued by local police, taken to a nearby cafe where the rest of the crew are sat drinking coffee. 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:17.679 One of the men has a sprained ankle because he was forced to jump over a fence because he was being chased by a bull and he was the only other injury. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:19.519 Wow. 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:21.440 Sounds like something out of the other way. 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:22.159 Oh, it was. 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:23.440 It really made me laugh. 00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:31.920 The other one is the little known fact about who the first people to bomb a Japanese aircraft carrier was, and it was actually uh Blenim Squadron. 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:33.199 Of course. 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:33.519 Yeah. 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:42.320 So Blenheim of 11th Squadron, during the Indian Ocean Raid or the Easter raid, you get a group of 11th Squadron bombers operating out of Ceylon. 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:54.559 They take off, find the Akagi, which is with her cap patrol isn't expecting anyone, and suddenly this group of Blenheims come in at low level and start bombing this aircraft carrier and then turn round to try and leave. 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:56.480 I mean, it goes as well as you'd expect. 00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:04.800 Um, not only do they get intercepted by the patrol, but as they get back to Salon, a group of Japanese bombers going back the other way, the fighter escort descends on them as well. 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:13.519 But the Americans can I'm trying to think of the polite way to say suck it, but it was actually the RAF and Blenheims that bomb the Akagi first. 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.440 Okay, unsuccessfully, but we did it first, before midway. 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:19.679 Wow, that's a great fact. 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:21.760 Some great stories, aren't there? 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.639 Um I think now to ask the biggest question. 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.360 What is your favourite early war REF bomber? 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:31.039 And if you want to throw in a Luftwaffe one as well, you're welcome to. 00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.599 Yeah, I'm I'm gonna be very sit on the fence on this one. 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.639 I mean, as I said, I I have a r love the Blenin for. 00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:39.760 She's amazing. 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:42.960 Um I I had a real soft spot as I was writing about them. 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.159 However, the fairy battle, I'm very protective of a fairy battle. 00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:50.320 I have a real love for things that are rubbish and under great losers in history. 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:51.360 And the fairy battle. 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:52.559 I mean the Halifax too. 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.400 Everyone's yeah, uh yeah. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:56.480 Halifax, hurricanes, fairy battles. 00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.440 Not that the Halifax is rubbish, but it's better than a Lancaster. 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.320 But the um the the fairy battle, everyone says, Oh, they're death traps. 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.880 Like, well, of course they are, because they're up against Mesh Smith 109s. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:06.880 How good was the Stuka when it was fighting Spitfires? 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.519 It's the same thing. 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:08.400 Exactly. 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:10.239 But don't don't send me down that one. 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.559 I also had a little model of the Wellington years ago and named it after my uh my then crush. 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.440 I'm not gonna have name names, but I really loved the Wellington. 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:23.519 But if we're gonna do Luftwaffe, there is only one answer, and that's the BF-110 C4B. 00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:25.599 Without a second thought, love that aircraft. 00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:38.079 Sadly old enough to have been a kid during the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Britain, and then in the 90s, everyone released Battle of Britain computer games, and I used to play Reach for the Skies and Lucasfilm's Their Finest Hour. 00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:47.119 And my best friend Dave, he said to me, and we're still friends now, we've been friends since we were six, but he said to me, Oh, the MeshSchmit 110's rubbish, don't fly that, it's useless. 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.199 So it became my mission to become the greatest MeshSmith 110 pilot of all time. 00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:52.000 And I did. 00:45:52.159 --> 00:46:03.440 And yes, flying around in a 110, dropping bombs on airfields, and then I went away and learned about Urpo Bunsgroup 210 and the raids and yay bows, and it was just it's just my favourite. 00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:11.920 But I will there is a new aircraft which is slowly replacing the Blenheim, and there's only if you were going to improve the Bristol Blenheim, how what what would you do with it? 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.000 Make it a Bristol Beaufoot. 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:17.599 Yeah. 00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:19.679 They are beautiful, yeah. 00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:21.760 I d I do love a Beaufort, yeah. 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:25.440 I mean, I've actually got an airfix of holding up with a Bofo. 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:27.840 I need to get around to making that, yeah. 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:29.679 I'm buying that at next payday. 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:30.800 It's on my list. 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:32.079 Fantastic. 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:32.960 I love it. 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:41.280 Someone who I know loaned me a whole load of Bofort stuff. 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:45.519 I think it was from his

great uncle, who'd been a Bofort pilot. 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:53.920 And there was there was original photographs of attacks on German shipping, there was like diary, there was I think there was a log button, all sorts, and I scanned them all. 00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:58.000 This is a couple of years ago, and I just can't find them anywhere. 00:46:58.079 --> 00:46:59.199 I don't know what I've done with them. 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:00.159 I'm devastated. 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.239 I'd love to get hold of that stuff again. 00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:03.679 Really, really interesting stuff. 00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.880 But yeah, yeah, the Bofort is a is a lovely aircraft, I think. 00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:12.639 Finally, then, um, Chris, are there any further books planned and what other projects are you are you involved in? 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.480 Well, at the moment, book three is very, very much in its infancy. 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:19.360 It was only sort of agreed on about a month ago with the publishers. 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:19.679 Oh, right. 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:21.679 I mean, I've got till next October to write it. 00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:24.800 And um, if you find that stuff, it's actually about Bristol Beaufoot. 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:26.079 Oh, fully up. 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:26.559 Yeah. 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:29.440 Oh, I'd have to see if I can find it for you now. 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:30.239 Yeah. 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.199 That would be great. 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:36.159 Beaufoot's Bowfighters, and uh, I'm gonna try and squeeze in Mosquitoes and Wellingtons. 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:41.039 I mean, the title is about Beaufoots and uh Bowfighters, but I've got to get in the Tetsy. 00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:44.239 And they had Wellington torpedo bombers for a while in Malta. 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:49.199 And I I think this is gonna be it's I mean, it started with a book just before lockdown. 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:55.199 Uh just as my divorce was kicking in, I took my son up to the RAF Museum and I bought a secondhand book on 21 Squadron. 00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:57.760 I was like, oh, I don't know anything about this, and this could be interesting. 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:06.800 I'm looking for book ideas, seeing as I'm newly single, and I started coming up with ideas, wrote about it, and then lockdown happened and the divorce got ugly. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.599 And then yeah, I I I didn't get round to it. 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:13.519 But then the publisher sort of sent out an email a couple of weeks months ago saying, Has anyone got any ideas? 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.400 I said, I'd like to write about the Battle of Jutland, or maybe Bofort's. 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:17.920 And they went, Oh, Bofort's a bit good. 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:18.880 Like, oh, okay. 00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:26.719 Um, but then I was reading about it, and in much the same way with like uh flying into the storm, I've going in not knowing much. 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:30.159 So I'm kind of on the journey that hopefully the reader will be in as well. 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:42.320 Interesting, scary to f um fact for you that the Bofort, the survivability of torpedo bombers in about 1942 was 17.5% to survive one tour. 00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:46.559 If you did two tour, only three percent survived two tours. 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:54.719 And that's in comparison to the Blenheim squadrons, where it was 25.5% for um one tour and six point five percent for two tours. 00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.159 And um yeah, it's just as you were saying about direct attacks on shipping, it's just crazy. 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.920 But uh the suicide. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:09.440 Well that they the 217 squadron are being penciled in to attack the Bismarck, which is just absolutely insane. 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:12.480 So yeah, no, I'm re it's I I'm hoping it's really interesting. 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:14.320 That sounds really exciting, yeah. 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:14.639 Yeah. 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:16.239 Definitely want to read that. 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:18.719 Uh I'll send you the chapters to proofread if you want. 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:20.239 I'd love to, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.039 Oh my god. 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:22.239 That's exciting. 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.039 But I mean, Chris, that's absolutely fantastic. 00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:28.159 And I say, folks, do do give the book a read. 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:36.559 It it's certainly, you know, you've got so much in there, it's very, very thought-provoking, and it is so good to highlight this period of the war and and and what was going on. 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:39.199 Chris, just a massive thank you for agreeing to be on the pod. 00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:41.119 But we'll have to have you back to talk again. 00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.280 And as you know, I'm always all ears when it comes to early war bombers. 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.000 Um, so massively enjoyed chatting today, especially when it comes to the plenism and stuff. 00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.599 Absolutely our pleasure. 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:53.519 But that is sadly all we have time for. 00:49:53.679 --> 00:50:00.320 If you have enjoyed this episode or have regularly enjoyed the pod, do leave us a review or a star rating wherever you find your podcasts. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:05.599 Please also consider becoming a subscriber for as little as two pounds forty a month, which keeps the show going. 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:09.360 And to our subscribers as ever, thank you so much for your support. 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:14.239 The link is in the show notes or visit nevermindthedambusters.buzzsprout.com. 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:21.280 Please also feel free to join our Facebook discussion group, which is open to all listeners, and follow us on our various social media platforms. 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.199 So until next time, bye all. 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:25.360 Bye all, that was fantastic. 00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:28.639 I think one of our widest ranging discussions that we've ever had. 00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:29.360 Loved it. 00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:30.719 See you all again soon. 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:31.599 Bye.