#7: Current State and Future of the Neurodiversity Movement의 전체 녹취록

know that's my nervous system. 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:19.120 And I used to force myself to go because it seemed like the right thing to do, but then I never felt good. 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:34.560 It didn't energize me, it didn't, it didn't feel safe, and so I just think it's interesting, you know, to when we honor our nervous systems in different environments and and also recognize that you know the heat might be more challenging for you than somebody else. 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:35.199 Yeah, yeah. 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:38.719 Okay, but it's a provocation to the audience, yeah. 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:40.159 I like this. 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.520 If I honored my nervous system all the time, I don't think I'd get out of bed. 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:49.439 You know, you would just stay in bed. 00:02:49.759 --> 00:03:04.000 Yeah, well, I'm not sure you know, a teeth would exist, really, you know, because by nature I am an introvert, and yet, you know, the world doesn't necessarily know that or even would probably accept not accept that. 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:09.759 It may even really challenge me that and whatever I might have said there, that may have been a guy a long time ago. 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:10.960 I don't really know. 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:17.919 I just know that my happy spot isn't going to a party that was in the diary for a long time. 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.599 But my happy spot is suddenly a party coming around me when I'm not expecting it. 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:24.879 Yeah. 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:27.680 So I don't know how to explain that. 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:33.439 But other than if I know something is gonna be planned in advance, then it feels like an obligation. 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.199 And my nervous system says, Hey man, what gives? 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:38.240 Are you ready for this? 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:39.360 No, not really. 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.319 Are you dressing up? 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:42.319 Oh no, are you gonna no? 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.560 Whereas if it's just suddenly happening, then I'm super happy. 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.000 Yeah, the spontaneity of it is good for you. 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.240 I am the other way. 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:59.280 I like to know ahead of time where I'm going, how to manage my energy before, during, and after. 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:04.719 Uh, I like preparing what I'm gonna wear and uh what I'm gonna eat. 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:08.479 And yeah, so just different, different, different nervous systems. 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.520 We haven't talked much about this, but I really would like to do two things today. 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:21.839 One is acknowledge neurodiversity pride for all of us around the world and recognize what an amazing thing happened, you know, in so many countries around the world. 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:36.800 And I want to touch on that a little bit, but I also want to ask you personally, like I'm fascinated by the idea as a guy who I know I'm dyslexic in a Western diagnosis, I know I'm ADHD in the in all of the things that come with that. 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:43.279 I also know or believe that not everybody with ADHD has dyslexia. 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:53.439 But I do believe the nature of dyslexia or the impact of it in a life leaves everyone with dyslexia with ADHD. 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:54.240 You know? 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.040 So what they might use is comorbidity. 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.199 So learning isolation, let's just use that word. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.680 And I'll get to my point around this. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:14.560 The learning isolation of being a kid in a world that expects you to read and write and absorb information and articulate it in written form because everyone is doing it. 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:17.360 Even though it's a 20th century phenomenon. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:21.759 And I really challenge folks. 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.399 I know you you will say, oh no, no, there are people who have been reading and writing for 300, 400 years. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:27.519 Well, I'll say no. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:32.399 A certain class of people have been reading and writing for 300 years, what 400 years. 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:34.000 But this is not everybody. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.360 And so for everyone to do it, it's a 20th century phenomenon. 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:45.120 The impact of a child life to say working memory and literacy skills is how I get to count in this life. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:54.319 It's a lonely place when that's not your those two things, working memory and literacy skills, they're not in your armory yet, you know. 00:05:54.480 --> 00:06:00.000 Yeah, and you could find yourself thinking, well, if they're not in my armory, then maybe nothing is. 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:00.560 Yes. 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.920 And then the whole world says, no, kid, tons of things are. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:04.959 Look at this, look at that. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:06.639 If you're lucky, if you're lucky. 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:13.439 Yes, yes, yes, we so much value the the ability people have to read or write in schools. 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:21.279 It seems like almost all the other classes and experiences are devalued in comparison. 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:34.319 And so uh for for me, I was I really leaned into the art and the theater, and I struggled with math uh through dysgraphia, still do. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.399 Uh numbers, numbers are like a foreign language to me still. 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:43.360 And um, and math was the most important, not just in my school, but to my family. 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:46.879 And if you were not good at math, you were not intelligent. 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:53.439 And there was never a sense of multiple intelligences or different ways of being intelligent. 00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:07.279 And when I married my um current husband, my my final husband,

hopefully, um uh he studied multiple intelligences, and that's how he teaches. 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:21.199 So if a child struggles with, let's say, reading, um, but is really, you know, spatially intelligent or emotionally intelligent or kinesthetically intelligent, he makes sure to phrase it as such so that they know there are many ways to be intelligent. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:35.040 Unfortunately, society just value certain societies value some more than others, but that doesn't mean that a that a child is not uh smart or capable of of learning or success. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.800 Uh, but it takes it takes a teacher or a parent or some influence to to tell us that. 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:42.560 That was not the message I received. 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:49.519 Yeah, well, we measured children through productivity long, long, long before they're ready to go into workplace. 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:50.000 You know? 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.680 We measure children through what they bring to a society. 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:54.399 Mm-hmm. 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:59.519 And functional way long before we even talk to them about a workplace. 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.040 Um but no, so the reason I'm bringing this up is because yes, it's neurodiversity pride. 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:11.279 So we should take pride in those moments and and those realities, the the way we learn. 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.000 I want to say again what amazing thing to have happened around the world. 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.480 Um, but I've got a couple questions. 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:28.079 One is for you personally, because I am interested in comorbidity, and it's a really rubbish word, so overlapping impacts, conditions, barriers, call it what we want. 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.480 You know, it's just coexisting. 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:32.240 Sometimes I'll say coexisting. 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:42.559 Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of cover, but like I said, let's stay on the spontaneity thing, because you've shared that you have ADHD and autism. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:50.240 To me, there's a wonderful contradiction in those spaces, but I don't know how it works for you. 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.840 And I wondered if you would share something about that. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.120 Yeah, I and I think I might have shared this in the past. 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:07.360 Like to me, it's that they're almost constantly in battle with each other, and and it really depends on which one is in the driver's seat on any particular day. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:16.559 Um, because when you said if you honored your nervous system, you would just stay in bed all day uh when my ADHD is in the driver's seat. 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:17.919 That's more how I feel. 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.159 Like, uh, just like I'm not gonna do anything well anyhow. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:23.519 It's gonna be overwhelming. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.000 It's like I should, I, I need rest. 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.600 I um, you know, I I don't feel like work is easeful. 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.720 I might, I might just get down that rabbit hole. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:46.000 But um, but autism is so funny because I actually over, I overwork, I overperform, I overextend more often than not. 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:52.159 And so I would not allow myself to be in bed unless I was very, very sick. 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.320 Um, this is not at all, this is not good. 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:55.200 This is not healthy. 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.159 I'm just letting you know. 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.639 Like I will get up at 5 a.m. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.720 and work all day until 10 p.m. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:07.120 And very often my husband will walk in the room and he'll say, Why are you sitting in the dark? 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.440 And I'll say, I didn't even know it was dark in the room. 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:18.480 I'm just on my computer, which means for five hours as the sun was setting, I wasn't even aware of my surroundings because I was so consumed in my work. 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.639 So that's for me how they're very different. 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:30.480 And typically autism is in the driver's seat, unless rejection sensitivity is in the room and then all my ADHD comes back. 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.240 Wow, yeah, it's interesting. 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:45.279 I now understand how you listen to me speak at two in the morning at your time when I was speaking in Dubai, that you were literally awake because you would have to wake up. 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:47.360 Yeah. 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.279 So I was like, wow, she's keen. 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.279 She's really tuning in for this. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.279 Um, so all right, so let's let's take that on. 00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:58.639 Because I I don't have autism. 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:11.759 I don't as a practitioner and a teacher and uh in the field of neurodiversity, I've always looked at autism and ADHD and thought, hmm, that must be quite a thing, you know? 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.840 And as far as I know, I don't have autism, as far as I know, right? 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:22.559 Um but I do know that I do not switch on until the afternoon. 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.960 I don't and if I was to just then what go to bed till the afternoon, it's not gonna change anything, do you know? 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:36.080 So uh I'm at my peak usually at this sort of time, which is now you know, quarter to seven in in the evening, you know. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:36.480 Yeah. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.159 My system is uh all guns firing right now. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.320 If you spoke to my colleagues and said, you know, how is it nine? 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:46.879 Nine in the morning, yeah. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.320 So you should book Hati for keynotes at 7 p.m. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:51.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:51.679 -->

00:11:56.320 Because like at nine, seriously, I don't really talk much, not till 11, 12. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:56.879 Yeah. 00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:06.480 Um, well it's good listening, but also the brain is not, I can't recall things very well, names of things, people things, yeah. 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:24.559 Yeah, well, to me, this speaks to you know capitalism and workplace expectations and honoring different uh energy levels and and you know, the cycles of energy that we're all on differently, and like the nine to five just isn't suitable for most people. 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:39.919 And if you're in the workplace and hopefully you're in a more flexible schedule, if not an entrepreneur, you know, and and doing more project-based work so that you're not, you know, kind of forcing your nervous system to do something that that isn't in service to you. 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.600 Absolutely. 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:44.000 So this is a goes back to the point, right? 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:52.559 That so much of our neurodiverse barriers and realities come do not come because we are autistic or ADHD or dyslexic. 00:12:52.960 --> 00:13:02.559 And yes, I know we're gonna spend a long time, and there's an industry on this about such things being okay and normal and part of our world, which is true. 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:09.679 And that human condition is one of variety and differences and and and overlapping realities. 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:21.039 But I think we don't spend enough time talking about, and I have touched on it before, so I'm not gonna elaborate too much on this course, that you know, and I've said in the UK and a mass disabling event happened. 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.120 It was called the Industrial Revolution. 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:23.840 Yes. 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:30.799 And it wasn't just that we built factories, it was the entire change and makeup of the country. 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:31.279 Yes. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.120 And uh death of communities, the death I mean, I think that J.R. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.600 Tolkien in a sense wrote Lord of Rings about that, you know, to a certain extent. 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:46.240 That that we mobilized and people's sense of worth was based on how productive they were. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:52.080 Yeah, still Oh, and at the same time a light bulb was created, and it didn't just give light. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:57.279 It changed it was made by a diabetic, deaf, dyslexic man. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.519 You know, arguably Thomas Edison was not fun to be around. 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:10.159 But but from his writing and his inventions and the way he worked, it does seem like a very dyslexic mindset. 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:10.879 Interesting. 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.480 But he didn't just give it light or create light in a world of candles, he changed economies. 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:17.279 Yeah. 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:24.639 You know, and so with it becomes what's productive, what's not, who is useful and who's not. 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:25.120 Yeah. 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:26.879 And we've touched on this a bit. 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.480 But I'm throwing it back at you as a reminder to the audience. 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:38.000 Does do you see a space, and I think I'm gonna ask the audience to think about it as well. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:44.080 Do you see a space around neurodiversity and how it can be understood outside of capitalism? 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:44.879 Mm-hmm. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:45.519 Mm-hmm. 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.399 Or productivity, if that's healthy to say. 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.000 Well, I sure hope so. 00:14:50.159 --> 00:15:07.120 Uh if in the workplace in particular, it's going to be a more challenging road because I think still the workplace, most, if not all of them, are mostly focusing on productivity uh and profit, you know. 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:30.000 And so uh I'm seeing, at least in my country, the United States, a resistance to um the human, the human case or just like inclusion for inclusion's sake, if there isn't a strong ROI to productivity or um engagement or retention or innovation. 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:42.159 And I could argue till I'm blue in the face about innovation being like an easy um, you know, connection to diversity of thought, but um, but it's not enough right now. 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:49.679 It seems that there's a very strong narrative about, and actually kind of gross. 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:57.679 What I'm hearing is like we need to retention is not the goal, but we need to keep our best people because AI is going to take over so many jobs. 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.600 So retention isn't so much the goal now, but we definitely need to keep our best people. 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.080 And then you're like, what is a best person? 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.559 What defines your best person? 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:40.159 And then they say the person who is the most productive, um, the person, you know, who works the hardest with the most work ethic, you know, and and then that concerns me a great deal that that now there'll be less jobs and that the people who will be able to um, you know, stay in at work will have to even more so perhaps fit into these neurotypical capitalistic standards of what is a good or best worker, you know. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.200 And so I it's the opposite direction of what I'd like to see happen. 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:46.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.559 I am still in that um moment. 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.120 Like I don't feel as dyslexic as I used to because of the way AI works. 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:07.039 I I don't feel as lost in a list of emails that I need to deal with but won't deal with and wish I dealt with and then forget about them. 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:09.039 Instead, I can just address them. 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.680 I I I I speak to a machine and it fixes my

grandma's burning for me, you know, and it does that so fast. 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.440 It allows me to get on with other things. 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:21.920 So AI in that sense is helpful, but I I absolutely agree. 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.960 It's a younger generation that's going to take the toll here. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:41.839 But I I think like healthy children, and I think that's something I want to touch on for a second, but because healthy children by itself is an asset, you know, not for productivity, but just for uh fruction. 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.240 Continuation of the human race. 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:44.799 Yeah. 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.920 But we don't we don't measure neurodiversity like that even. 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.720 And I I was a dissecty guy, and I was like, yeah, you're really good at art. 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:53.680 Well, I'm not. 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.839 And I was like, it sucks to be me. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.680 I don't do art either. 00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.200 Not particularly. 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.359 Um I think I've created things through a a kind of global canvas. 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:04.880 When I look back on it. 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:11.839 And I work as an artist of a kind, but I don't draw, you know. 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:19.200 But I am able to visualize things and piece together a map that others struggled to see. 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:20.000 Yeah. 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.920 Your art is in your mind and heart, your vision. 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.119 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:31.839 And it's it's only when self-esteem can change that you can then see that as a value. 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.039 Especially when others don't do that. 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:36.960 And what they do is more methodical. 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.920 Yes. 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.319 Or not more methodical, I thought right. 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.720 A more recognized method methodical in a more recognized way. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:58.720 And then we go back to those, we need those inventors, those, you know, those the wheel spinners, the the weavers, the the brains that do things that others haven't done. 00:18:59.119 --> 00:18:59.519 Yeah. 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:01.599 My question to you. 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.039 And I'm not gonna bring us down the road of talking about the orange man in power right now. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.839 But I'm gonna take us out of there for a second, because it doesn't live and die with him. 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.519 Inclusion doesn't do that. 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.279 But I have a question. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.880 Neurodiversity Pride was really big around the world. 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:29.839 And I wanted to ask, given you are in the country with the largest economy in the world, was it big in America really, given? 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.160 And if so, great, why? 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.079 And if not, why? 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:54.400 Neurodiversity Pride as the day and the event, I didn't see any visibility on it unless I went look, and I did proactively go looking for it because I knew it was that day, but I only knew it was that day because I'm connected to the people who who designed the day. 00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:02.640 And so it didn't come upon me like I think would be nice, you know, for it to be more in the consciousness of of the country. 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.200 I didn't, I didn't sense that here. 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:19.440 Um and and I don't know, and I and I don't know if the the bigger story is I also don't feel a sense of neurodiversity pride any day in this country. 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:25.519 And I also don't see as much momentum in my neurodiversity work in this country as I do outside the country. 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:33.119 Most all of my work is in Europe right now, and um, in terms of the organizations I'm working with uh for the most part. 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.839 And so it's interesting to me. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.960 In fact, most of my clients, like the individuals and couples that I see, are in the states. 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:49.759 And the reason why they need the mental health support is because they're challenged so much with the ableism at work and the lack of support. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:57.680 So my clients are increasing in the states, but the my work and awareness is actually increasing outside of the states. 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.759 So it's not as supported on an organizational level. 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:02.960 Okay. 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.640 I'm gonna stay on you. 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:05.599 Why? 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.079 Why would that be? 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:18.160 So my my guess is that my country, unfortunately, right now, is in a very uh fear-based place. 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:36.960 Um, there's a lot of fear of what's gonna happen any given day that will impact our economy, our mental health, our safety every day because we have a reckless leader and government. 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.880 And so there's that fear. 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:44.000 There, what I'm hearing a lot is we're not gonna make any big moves from organizations. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.960 We're not gonna make any big moves now because it's very uncertain as to what the future will bring. 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759 Let's wait until November to see what the midterms bring, which will give us a little bit more sense of what the economy might be like, which might inform our budget to be able to bring out. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.200 Outside people in. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:26.480 Meanwhile, let's overwork the neurodivergent employees that we have who are willing to be advocates and let's in-house have them do all the presentations and ERD leads and workshops because we're going to just pull from the people with the lived experience, which is at least something, but I'm

finding more often than not over a fear and a pause in general. 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.559 In general, obviously there's a few that aren't like this. 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:50.960 But just like with the kind of DEI backlash, I'm still seeing a lot of hesitancy for people to uh step into more work for organizations to be more inclusive and more equitable. 00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:11.359 Even to the extent that when I talk to organizations here, they'll say, we love the message, but we need you to do a workshop and not use any of these words, intersectionality, diversity, equity, inclusion, um, justice. 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.680 Like, okay, but what do you want me to talk about in neurodiversity? 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:15.039 This is gonna be really challenging. 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:22.480 And so I say, okay, we could talk about it from the level of respect, like respecting all functioning styles, a needs base. 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:28.000 So I so I have to accommodate quite a bit for that barrier. 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.400 Yeah, okay, so let's stay on this. 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.039 If I'm I'm hopefully not exhausting you, but I want to invite you to ask whatever you want. 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.519 But I know, and it's really speaking to the cross the pond beyond, right? 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:49.359 Because if we made it all about the big orange man, we would be understandable because that's where the power is right now. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.960 Alright. 00:23:51.119 --> 00:24:04.000 But in the UK, there is a stronger understanding on neurodiversity and poverty, not the way that I would like it, but certainly in a space where people are trying to understand it, and I get asked. 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:18.960 And then I could be thinking much more about well, that poverty being an extension of what might be a school-to-prison pipeline, and how many people with ADHD, for example, are in prisons and unspeakable because of poverty and such and such. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:32.000 Now, that that's not the only reason someone's in prison, but it would be fair to say that prisons themselves are noticing this much more and choosing to lean into it more, regardless of who's in charge. 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:44.960 Then you could say there's amazing work um being done in this field, you know, lots of great heroes that I I know I won't name properly, but but one that's close to my heart is uh Amanda Kirby, and she's a professor. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:53.440 Um but I might say, and Amanda Amanda will be a guest on the show, I'm sure, hopefully, uh in in heaven, I will ask that. 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:59.279 But I think that Amanda will probably say, yes, prisoners are paying attention to yes, they are, but not the level they should be. 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:01.440 And I think that's I would agree. 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:23.519 And I might say But one thing is happening is we're seeing more neurodiversity specialists talking about the

menopause and the specifics to women women have been historically, culturally, socially, economically deeply uh underrepresented in neurodiversity conversations and impact. 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:25.599 And that's changing in the UK. 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:33.359 More women's groups about neurodiversity and women specifically is changing. 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:57.759 I'm gonna give a big shout out to Dear Friendly Brighton Jess Rad, who set up Neurocurious, which is about everybody, but in particular under uh a badge or allegiance to uh a concept of womenhood, you know, and how neurodiversity specifically impacts women and in part hormones and in part menopause and pre-menopause or post-menopause. 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:06.240 I know I've said a lot there, but what I want to touching on is is America doing anything like that to your mind? 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.400 And if not, why? 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:13.200 Well, there's quite a bit of conversation about menopause. 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:17.599 Um, this is the good news in in America, which is which is wonderful. 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:30.000 Um I personally just did a uh keynote and a talk connecting neurodivergence and menopause, and I've never seen another talk here that connected the two. 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.880 So I don't think that that connection um is very frequently talked about. 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:48.720 Um certainly there's a lot of people talking about how ADHD in particular um as with hormonal changes and estrogen changes, it impacts uh ADHD and and other forms of neurodivergence. 00:26:48.880 --> 00:27:15.279 But um, but I personally, and I know we might disagree on this, if the in my opinion, the definition of neurodivergence is um is anyone whose functioning diverges from neuronormativity, society's idea of what is normal or ideal, um, which includes all the mental health challenges and includes a lot, a lot of um things way beyond autism, dyslexia, ADHD. 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.119 But I believe it includes menopause. 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:23.519 I believe it includes PMDD, uh, you know, which is a hormonal shift um during menstruation and a lot of challenges. 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:33.119 But menopause, um, the the mind changes, not just for women, but non-binary and and trans uh people as well, experience menopause. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:54.400 Um and that that the impacts of our mind, but also body, but also the fact that we're marginalized similarly uh through ageism and ableism, um, and you could throw in sexism and a lot of other isms in there, um, make it a neurodivergence, a form of neurodivergence. 00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:59.359 So I consider menopause as under the neurodivergent umbrella. 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.000 Um, and that I don't hear very often. 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:10.240 And in fact, I I get a lot of challenge from it, but it's the same people who challenge me on bipolar being under or or traumatic brain injury. 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.319 It's just it's just a more expansive, inclusive umbrella that I'm yeah. 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.279 No, I I'm I'm I'm with you. 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.519 Um I'm very with you. 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.039 Um yeah, I know, I know I've said it before, I'm gonna say it again. 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.799 That that I think human experience makes us all neurodiverse, but but we're not all marginalized because of it. 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.720 And and and that's the work, right? 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:31.519 Yeah. 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:32.960 And to me, that's a difference. 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:42.559 Like we're all as a human species neurodiverse, um, but neurodivergent speaks to the people who are marginalized. 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.200 Yeah, I I I agree with you. 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:51.680 My hesitation, and I think that's and it's delicious that we have that slight difference, but not much. 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.799 In your in in some what I know of, and the joy I've had in getting to know you, it's not much of a difference. 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:18.400 I suppose because I think as a person of colour, I'm already divergent from a lot of power modelling, with or without a diagnosis for something, or we've even without a need for a diagnosis, we're just divergent from power relationships, and I think that there's not a woman in the world that couldn't testify to that at some point as well. 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:24.880 Um so I suppose my problem is probably I'm being a stickler, but I do struggle with the term neurodivergent. 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.200 But what in the absence of a better word, I don't really have one right now. 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:38.160 So, but what I do think is there are people whose way of learning and teaching have been welcomed, particularly in the 20th century. 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:54.319 Uh, that may not have been welcomed before that, but they've particularly been welcomed in the 20th century, and I think the people's skills and different assets that were welcomed hundreds and hundreds of years ago and probably deeply, deeply needed uh are less welcomed now. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.240 Just as deeply needed. 00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.200 Yeah. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:13.519 Um, but I don't know if I would call that divergent because I like I said, the social structures and the super social structures make people of color divergent by the very nature of their colourless skin and how they access power in the world. 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:19.759 And and whilst I can say that we are global majority voices by the virtue of our colour skin. 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:24.559 Yeah, I think the majority of people are neurodivergent as well. 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.720 Like, I don't think it's neurodivergent from a statistical norm or a bell curve. 00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.160 It's I think most people are neurodivergent for a variety of reasons. 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:42.880 Some are

intersectional, marginalized identities, and that very few people are neurotypical if they are even truly neurotypical, if they're not masked neurotypical. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:56.480 Um, and at any point, somebody will become neurodivergent, and most people do become neurodivergent as they as they age, uh, um, just like we all become disabled in some way. 00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.000 Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.200 And it brings us back to the barriers that we face rather than labels. 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.480 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:09.200 Um, so I want to ask this question then in the context, I'm again, I want to ask to really park Trump for a second. 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:14.240 Because I still would say, how is this different under Biden or even Obama? 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:14.960 Mm-hmm. 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:15.599 Mm-hmm. 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:27.519 Maybe I wouldn't like to go further than that because I'm not sure we'd get very far, particularly under Reagan issues. 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:33.200 But I think you could look at Obama and say, well, there was a kind of hope for an egal. 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:42.000 I'm maybe dressing this up, but at least for the U US internally, there was a kind of hope for an egalitarianism to happen in America. 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.640 Maybe not with foreign policy, but certainly for US citizens. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:57.039 It wasn't like, hey, there's a major space around how people partake in autism or ADHD under the Obama time, right? 00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:57.519 No. 00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.880 And and and would it be fair to say there was a conversation about prison, to your knowledge? 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.839 I mean, it might prison services and things like that. 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:22.480 I did hear more about the school to prison pipeline during Obama years, but I think it's interesting to note that once you and in interesting, like with Biden, he was very much pro-um LGBTQIA rights. 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.640 And and I think all these liberation movements are certainly connected. 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:46.160 And so when you have leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around racism or leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around sexuality or gender identity, then you're also going to start to um organically unlike unravel and challenge the barriers around neurodiversity. 00:32:46.400 --> 00:33:06.000 And so I feel like I feel like right now that's why we're at a bit of a standstill, because we're not getting any uh progress in any liberation movement of any kind, you know, other than like this this white man in power with a lot of money. 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:41.119 And so so I so I believe and hope that whoever's coming into power next, like like this is this is my dream, you know, like uh somebody like Pete Buddhej, who's a a brilliant uh thinker, uh gay man, married to a man, raising beautiful children, like has like an excellent uh way to really get to the root of it, saying, you know, not only do we need the diversity um of people and and thought and functioning styles, but like that that's that's what makes you know humanity beautiful and is our strength. 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:47.839 And like anytime people challenge him about his sexuality, he turns it right back around to like just any difference, any difference. 00:33:48.079 --> 00:34:16.400 And um, I'm not quoting him at all ill eloquently, but um, but I think if we had a leader who's who's just like, it doesn't matter what label we're talking about, whether we're talking about somebody who's gay or autistic or or black or an immigrant or whatever, like we're talking about different, different people and honoring and respecting and not dehumanizing and stigmatizing and pathologizing anybody. 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:33.679 Like just like, and so I I'm I'm not holding my breath, but that's that's you know, and I think people can still do that within the leadership that we have right now on a smaller scale, personally and individually, and in small groups and in small, you know, it's communities. 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:43.760 But um, but I think it will be helpful when we have somebody in leadership who's consistently giving that message and challenging the yeah, for sure, for sure. 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:52.960 I mean, I think what you've just said there is the nicest part of and most nicest part of neurodiversity pride I've I think I'm gonna hear this this month, right? 00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:03.440 Um, because what you're touching on is our and you know, and those of you who are new to the podcast, I'm just gonna say, but those of you who've heard it or following us because we talk about this. 00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.360 This is our collective liberation. 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:05.840 Yeah. 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:11.199 That you cannot be well if people of colour in your nation are not well and not safe, not welcomed. 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:19.840 You cannot be well, and nor can your children be well if people who are gay are not welcomed or made to feel safe in the world that you share with them. 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.519 I I truly think this is the evolution of this, and I truly think that a generation after us will be able to hold on to that, you know, in a stronger way, and perhaps in a way that we haven't really seen since the civil rights movements in the 60s. 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.800 Um I do kind of like action and reaction being equal and opposite. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.079 I wish that was true. 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.840 It's Newton's fourth law. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.719 Action and reaction are equal and opposite. 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.440 They're actually not though, are they, in terms of social outcries. 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.360 Some social outcries can change a president's mind. 00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.280 Yeah, and some won't.

00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:00.239 Yeah. 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840 And some can be so egregious that lives are lost. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:04.079 Yeah. 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.400 And despite the number of lives lost. 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:06.960 Yeah. 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039 It still doesn't move a president. 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.039 I I'm not talking about this specific one. 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:11.360 I know. 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.119 In in general. 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:14.239 Yeah. 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:21.599 And I look at America and I think you it has one of its economies, one of its largest manufacturing economies, is those prisons themselves. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.119 They are a punitive sentence of a kind. 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:26.880 I don't I hope I'm saying that right. 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:31.760 But it's actually an extended form of slave economy. 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:32.400 Yeah. 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:39.840 And now with the detention centers beyond prisons, specifically detention centers for uh for immigrants. 00:36:40.000 --> 00:37:04.320 And also, I'm hearing currently um a push to institutionalize uh disabled people, uh, specifically intellectually, developmentally disabled people, and and taking rights away from families and schools and communities that would that would typically be able to, you know, provide resources. 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:18.400 Like so people are quite scared right now about, and that's going back to like many, many decades ago, but but also eugenics, um, you know, and in in just like who's worthy of freedom. 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.679 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.079 Yeah, this is true, all right. 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.639 And this is exactly um, you know, uh I think the uh mention I wasn't gonna say his name. 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.480 The only thing the only honest thing he did or say was that I'm gonna come for EDI, and he did, right? 00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:34.719 Yeah. 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.679 Um, but I do think that says more about us, where we were at, and we're willing to fold in three months. 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.039 And I know that's not all of us, I know a lot of companies said no, we're gonna. 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.280 I've just come back from speaking in Barcelona for the Working Futures Conference, and it was great. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.039 Um and I was deliciously reminding my audience is Europeans. 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:10.159 We talked a little bit about the big man in the White House, but what what I loved, and I was very conscious suddenly and awakened to it, that I'm not speaking to an English audience. 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.519 Uh you know, I was speaking to an international audience and they're Europeans, and they said, and a French guy said, Oh, yeah, but we are Europeans. 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:24.159 Now it's really nice to hear that because English people can after Brexit, particularly, it it doesn't do that well. 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.440 We should, but we don't. 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.960 And hearing a French man, he didn't say, Um, well, yeah, but we're French, we don't care about Trump. 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:36.800 He said, No, but we are Europeans, you know, and as Europeans, we think as a community, to you know, of what inclusion looks like, what fairness looks like. 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.039 And I was just like, wow, this is just nice. 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:40.079 I love the vigour. 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.000 I loved not having to tiptoe around the conversation. 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:54.480 And I could show his picture and say, look, either he sets the pace of the world and the world says that's okay, or the world says no. 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:02.719 And and but I also look at Europeans and think, well, I'm in Brighton, I know that's geography-wise, it's on the coast. 00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.920 I'm closer, just 20 miles across that water, and I hit France. 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.679 I hit London than 60 miles. 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.039 I promise you, we have a better Equality Act in the UK than anything in France. 00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:26.559 We have a better inclusion and fairness for marginalized people, be they gay, disabled, elderly, queer, born diverse or divergent. 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:28.719 Yeah, better. 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.199 And I'm not trying to say this because I want to ride France down. 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:46.239 I'm saying because if I look at the ADA, I'd even American discrimination uh discrimination I'd still say that's better than a lot what Europe has, be it holding on to itself by Freds. 00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:47.119 Mm-hmm. 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.920 Yeah, yeah, from an accessibility standpoint for sure. 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.079 France is kind of known, unfortunately, for being inaccessible for the disabled people. 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:54.800 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:07.599 Yeah, and and and this was the rest of the audience was not just French, but it was, you know, uh a group of good committed people, but they were from countries that have a historical track record and not being so great on it. 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:08.079 Yeah. 00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:11.440 But also a track record of saying we want to. 00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:11.840 Good. 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:13.199 We want to move forward. 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:13.519 Good. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:18.239 Whereas okay, you're saying, no, we want to take back what we what we did. 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.599 And the UK has gone, hmm, I never know which way to go. 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.039 That that does my heading. 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679 The UK is just like when you make your mind up, make a stand. 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:28.400 Yeah. 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:31.519 Yeah, yeah. 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:41.920 I I've never felt as uh included or s or safe um in from public transportation to the

buildings to theaters. 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:57.199 It was the it's the only place I can wear the sunflower lanyard um showing non-apparent or invisible disabilities, however you say it, um, that it was immediately recognized by anyone and honored with deep compassion. 00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.800 I was so impressed. 00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:00.239 In Europe. 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.440 In in the UK. 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:02.480 Oh, okay. 00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:03.039 All right, right. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:04.320 Not anywhere else. 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:10.880 Not anywhere else, not in any of the other European countries that uh that I had visited or places beyond. 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.880 It's it's only been in the UK UK. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.559 Oh wow, yeah, I do recommend wearing if you're going on a plane. 00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.639 You can you can it helps, it helps. 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.880 Yeah, yeah, we can spend all time with things, yeah. 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.199 Um okay, all right. 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:38.320 So we're coming to the end of this, and I guess I want to just give uh space for any questions you've got to ask, and if you have any burning ones, but but I I'm I'm really enjoying today's one because we're in a kind of a an interesting space. 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.920 The World Cup is going on, you know, things in America bring that into a space. 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:53.280 Um we're watching things happening about a you know, a lake being an international incident, which makes no sense to me. 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.719 Um what is that? 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.920 Say the last part again? 00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.639 Um, you know, the lake, the the the reflecting pool. 00:41:58.880 --> 00:41:59.920 Oh, the pool, yes. 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.119 Yeah, and so I'm thinking, why is this making so much attention? 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.679 But I I that's not something I understand. 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:14.159 Um the the uh world wrestling happening in the White House, that's slightly funny, do you know? 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.039 It's fairly humorous and disgusting, yeah. 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:24.559 But then I'm thinking a year ago, you guys really trashed into Zelensky for not wearing a suit as if he were bringing bad decorum to the White House. 00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.719 Right here are having wrestling matches. 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:34.800 So it's kind of all these sort of comical things that we're seeing, but the heart of it is still people trying to make their way safely through this work. 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:49.280 So I guess if I could ask you one question is if we looked at neurodiversity pride this time next year in America a year from now, and it was awesome, that really good? 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.239 Why? 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.280 What did we do? 00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.440 I mean, not just you and me, but what did America do to make it awesome this time? 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.840 What do you think that they did or would have done? 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.960 Yeah, it's gonna it would be hard to do it within a year. 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.880 Um, because I think there is the awareness. 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:20.880 Um, I don't think yet that we're in a play, and there's a there's a little bit of like we've gone from awareness to affirming somewhat, affirming some forms of neurodivergence, but not all. 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:27.840 And then there's this responsiveness that we're very, very far from, you know, and and action very, very far from. 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:29.599 There's a lot of performative efforts. 00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:58.559 And so, you know, in a year, I guess what I would hope realistically is that some organizations with a lot of visibility and and power and influence would be not just awareness and affirming, but really, really responsive and and um proactive and um and strong in their uh advocating. 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.400 And um and And pride, but but more so I want systemic change, you know. 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:12.559 Like I think pride is great, but then if we have like pride and you know gay rights and gay marriages taken away, like that's that's not helpful. 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.199 You know what I mean? 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.119 Like I I want I want pride and action, neurodiversity and beyond. 00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:29.119 And so um yeah, I think it would I think it would look like policy change and and uh you know strategic change and systemic change. 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.079 Good. 00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:40.960 Well, look, here's hoping, I think, for for for for so many ways, because whatever happens in your country, you do set the pace to an Well, I don't know. 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.440 It sounds like the UK might need to set the pace on this one, like maybe Yeah, yeah. 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:56.559 Like I said, I think the UK is is needs an awful lot of work to understand the barriers that really affect the lives of our neurodiversity folks and our disabled folks. 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:04.000 And I think we have to do so much more in the UK to understand what is a disabling situation rather than who's got a disability. 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.719 Yeah. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:15.679 Um and I think we're not even close to honouring what's enshrined in our own equalities act, even though that equality act came out in you know 2010. 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.159 We're not even close to recognize what that actu actually means. 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:27.519 But I also think, and I don't want us to compare good enough with bad practice. 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:28.800 Right, right, right, right. 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:34.719 I want to compare great, yeah, because great is deserved, yeah. 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:45.519 Um, and so I think I'm just gonna finish this that great is deserved, whether it's in US or UK or Cameroon or Sudan

or Ghana or anywhere, right? 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:59.920 I think in a lot of the world, LGBTQIA plus pride has come a long way in beyond awareness and beyond affirmation and to a lot of really great systemic change. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:11.119 And I think that that's a wonderful model to follow as we look at neurodiversity pride or mad pride or disability pride, um, all the other movements. 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:12.719 Yeah, yeah. 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:13.599 All right, good. 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:15.599 Well, look, we're gonna finish here, I think. 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:23.760 And I'm gonna ask those watching is please reach out to us and tell us about anybody that you think should be a guest on this show. 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.960 We're really interested. 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:27.760 This is series, this is episode seven. 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:35.199 Uh, and I promise Passion I that by the time we get to episode 10, what we're gonna start doing is having guests on this show. 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:45.679 Um, we really want to hear from you folks if you think that somebody whose work particularly would challenge, I guess, some of the conversations that Pasha and I have, that would be great. 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:53.679 And by challenge, I mean people who may be more traditionally into uh diagnostics or pathology models. 00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:01.360 But I suspect anyone really into that will probably be balanced to understand the joy of what Pasha brings to this and me about barriers. 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:02.480 But I don't know. 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.559 We want to throw this to you guys. 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:10.639 We want to ask people: can we get a heads around that poverty changes how we understand neurodiversity? 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.599 That hormones may change the way women get to share neurodiversity. 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.159 Um, does that apply to men too? 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:18.960 I I I don't know. 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:20.079 I want to throw this out there. 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:26.880 One thing I do know is that the Eurocentric modeling of neurodiversity cannot stay forever. 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:48.639 I think it's not relevant, and I think that it is potentially, and I say this with love, if I can, if that's not a contradiction, but I I say this that it is at times reinforcing white supremacy because it's close to being curious about what neurodiversity looks like in other worlds or other places in the planet. 00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:56.400 It it mostly looks at how they should assimilate European models or Eurocentric ones and how they're supposed to assimilate it better. 00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.239 So that's going to change, and I suspect that we'll just have to, and I'm looking forward to that. 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.000 I may not be around to really see the best of that, but I do think I'm playing a part in making it happen already. 00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:16.000 Um and so I just invite you all to join us in this conversation, this invitation, and tell us look, what would you like us to talk about? 00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.719 What guests would you really insist on us having? 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.599 And what does Neurodiversity Pride 2030 look like for you? 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.639 Good questions. 00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.599 I hope we get lots of uh feedback on that. 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:37.039 And I I love that idea of uh bringing in guests that would challenge that would challenge us, not just mirror what we're saying. 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:43.039 And the and guests beyond, you know, the UK and the United States and Europe. 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.760 Uh it would be especially impactful. 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.280 Brilliant. 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.159 Okay, well, look, um, this is it for me, at least I think in my head and heart. 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.239 Um Pasha, I suppose might be messed up. 00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:54.800 Yes. 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:56.719 We're good, we're complete. 00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:57.599 Yeah. 00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:58.320 Great. 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.039 Well done, folks, and thank you for joining us. 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.440 And as ever, saying Tash, please reach out, please just shout what you need from us. 00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:07.679 Thank you, everybody, for joining us. 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:08.719 See you soon.