Your School Librarian Belongs in the AI Conversation | My EdTech Life 375의 전체 녹취록

in in you know online learning. 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:19.759 So it's really great to, I don't know, just learn from other professionals who have been working in higher education for so long and learning about the ins and outs of academia. 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:28.560 It's very, very different from working with public school systems, but there's also a lot of overlaps and similarities. 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:29.839 And I just love learning. 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:31.199 Right now it's all about learning. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:35.920 I'm very new, very green, um, but I'm learning as I go. 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.399 And I I just honestly couldn't ask for anything better. 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:41.360 It's been so great. 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:56.399 I get to do research, I get to teach, I get to, you know, promote the amazingness of library science and instructional design, and you know, get to be creative with how I do that. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.160 So it's been really, really awesome. 00:05:58.399 --> 00:05:59.279 Oh, that is great. 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.079 Big shout out to Sam Houston State University. 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:06.480 Yes, the best university, you know, cats. 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:08.560 There you go. 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:14.720 And by the way, I did want to let you know uh the last time that you were on was episode 15. 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.680 Oh, and that was July 18th of 2020. 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:20.480 Wow. 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.959 So it has been a while, my friend. 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:38.000 And just again, yeah, and so just to see everything that you've been able to accomplish, you know, with the K-12 space in library, you know, with librarians and all your work through the library, and now in now you're in academia. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:53.439 So it's been great to see that transition, your growth, and obviously, you know, your two big passions that I think are just fit right in, which is libraries and instructional design, which you always did very well when you did uh presentations and so on. 00:06:53.439 --> 00:07:04.720 So that's fantastic that you get to do that and share that with all the amazing uh, you know, soon-to-be uh instructional designers or soon-to-be librarians, because I think that really does go hand in hand. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:06.639 But uh, Karina, I want or Dr. 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:12.560 Q, I should say, I I did want to talk to you a little bit more about the importance of libraries. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:21.759 As you know, I know we there was a lot of things happening in the news, and especially now with budgets and funding and so on and so forth. 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:35.920 You know, for myself, and and this is my experience coming in from high school, elementary, and having that background, I always saw that the library was the central hub of all learning. 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.839 For me, that was my greatest resource was the library. 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:51.680 My greatest resource was the librarian who had access to, of course, databases when we would do research or a lot of the things for robotics and you know, some technology in there. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.120 So it was a great mix. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:03.199 And so for me, I I I hold the library near and dear to my heart in that sense of being that hub for all students and for teachers as well. 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:13.439 Tell me a little bit about what it is that you're seeing and you know, just really just the importance of uh libraries and librarians in totality there. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:16.000 Well, Dr. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.480 Fonz, you uh you bring up a lot of interesting points. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:33.840 And I love that you refer to the library as a hub, the central hub of learning, um, where learning takes place, you know, without judgment, uh without limits. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:44.879 Uh what we hope as like as librarians, you know, speaking on behalf of all school librarians, and I hope it's okay to do that, and I hope school librarians are okay with me doing that. 00:08:44.879 --> 00:09:20.080 But uh I love that you know, you're you're bringing that type of discourse to the show because you're right, school libraries have been the center of a lot of discussion, and there's been a lot of news out there where the public have, you know, viewed the librarians or collections unfavorable unfavorably, and it's it's resulted in a lot of tension and a lot of uncertainty regarding what the future of school librarianship looks like. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:52.159 What I think is most important to consider, um, especially in the context of technology and future innovation, is that what I notice now, and as far as you know, current and even emerging trends, is that librarianship and libraries of all sorts, school libraries, academic libraries, public libraries, special libraries, law librarianship, you know, I think libraries just become more important as technology becomes more sophisticated. 00:09:52.159 --> 00:10:00.639 And there's often a misconception that librarianship is all about books and it's all about what's on the shelves. 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:09.120 And, you know, there used to be a stereotype of librarians just sitting behind the desk all day wearing their little cardigans. 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:14.559 And even though we do love cardigans, uh, you know, librarianship has never really been about books. 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:18.559 You know, books are obviously the cornerstone of what we do. 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.639 It's a huge part of what we do. 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:28.639 But our larger responsibility as librarians is helping people access, find, and find information. 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:41.840 That means, you know, not just finding it, but evaluating information, making meaning from it, creating with it, um, and helping people understand how to use it ethically and efficiently.

00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:53.519 Um, you know, for a long time, one of our biggest challenges was helping students find information, uh, you know, with the World Wide Web and how you can just Google things. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:11:02.639 You know, now we have the opposite problem, and that's that students are surrounded by information. 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.200 It's just everywhere. 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:15.279 And you can type something into a search engine or ask an AI tool, you can watch a TikTok, uh, you know, a reel on social media and get an answer within seconds. 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:37.200 So now I think a larger part of school librarianship and the discussion regarding what our profession entails is how we help students with um gaining skills and honing skills, refining those skills and shifting from simply asking, you know, can you find the answer to this? 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.360 Can you find information about this? 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:47.600 To asking, can you determine whether or not this information is deserving of your trust? 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:52.799 You know, should you believe what is being put out there? 00:11:52.799 --> 00:12:01.279 You know, what is the criteria that we now have to, you know, consider when we're presented with information at mass? 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:12.399 So um I know that you mentioned what or what we hope to discuss was, you know, what role AI has in the context of librarianship. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:37.120 And I think that this discussion is actually really important because with generative AI, students can receive something that is beautifully written, in some cases, not always, grammatically correct, you know, uh, it can sound confident and even authoritative sounding, which is pretty scary, but it can also be completely wrong. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:47.279 And even though an output can have citations and look legitimate, that doesn't necessarily mean that they exist, right? 00:12:47.279 --> 00:13:14.799 So as librarians, we're now being tasked with teaching students to stop and ask where information came from, whether a claim can be um independently verified, whether a source actually exists, and you know, what evidence supports uh the information at hand and also what perspectives might be missing. 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:38.799 I always had, you know, when AI was first on the scene, you know, at least in in K-12, uh, because it's been around for a while, I had to make sure to tell my students, I want you to be, you know, cautiously aware and cautiously um considerate of what it is that you're digesting as an information seeker, right? 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:58.799 Because I don't want students to become, and even adults, the the adults that I teach now in the graduate programs, like I want them, I don't, I don't want them to become 100% cynical and believe that nothing online is real because the internet is a very powerful tool and it can be very, very helpful. 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:04.559 But, you know, cynicism isn't to be equated with information literacy either. 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:10.879 You know, I want them to develop healthy cynicism, I guess, or healthy skepticism, I should say, right? 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:39.840 And now, you know, what we're trying to advocate is that the goal is not to teach students to distrust everything, the goal is to teach them how to decide what deserves their trust, which is why I keep saying, and I've said this before in other presentations, is that AI and new technologies, whether it's AI or not, any type of emerging new technology, does not make information literacy, media literacy obsolete. 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.000 What it does is it makes information literacy an emergency, is where we're at right now. 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.480 Oof, I love that last phrase. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.480 That that's a soundbite right there. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.440 Oh, okay. 00:14:51.440 --> 00:15:02.240 And but but you know what, everything that you shared is right on point, and it actually kind of worked into kind of my next question, but you kind of answered it because you did hit on a lot of those points. 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:19.360 But one of the things that I was noticing, and and again, going back to maybe obviously generative AI hitting all the classrooms and and being out there, and just almost every platform has some sort of generative AI piece or will produce something. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:25.759 And so I love that you mentioned, you know, as students are seeking information, how cautious it is that they need to be. 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:38.480 But I think that even as far back as I can remember, and right as you were talking, I was remembering my elementary librarian, Missy Barra at LBJ Elementary. 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:53.440 And I was remembering her because I just remembered how helpful she was, how she would obviously help us with books, but there was still, you know, some of those pieces of technology, but she would always help us, you know, with finding sources and information and so on. 00:15:53.440 --> 00:16:23.600 So even as far back as I'm remembering elementary many years ago, and even now that we're here today, I think that some of those library skills, those skills that libraries are teaching, such as questioning sources, tracing information, understanding the context, evaluating the credibility which you you hit on from the K-12 space, the importance of that, and even in the higher ed space, I think that that is something that is gonna continue. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:34.080 And and those skills are the skills that we need during this time where generative AI has taken over the interwebs and everything or devices. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:38.559 So we gotta make sure, like you mentioned, is is this a reliable source? 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:40.559 Where are these sources from? 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.440 You know, is it somebody somebody that's

credible? 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:44.960 Is it a credible source? 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:46.320 Let's trace it back. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.480 And even during our research studies, I mean, how we had to do that. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:53.600 We had to make sure that we cited our sources. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:17:00.159 Where are we getting, you know, our our research papers from, our, you know, our citations and everything. 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.600 So we got to make sure that all of that gets done and taken care of. 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:05.519 So I really like that. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:23.119 To me, the the spirit of the library, the skills that I learned from, even remembering, like I said, Miss Ibarra in elementary and the librarians that I have, and the amazing librarians that I've had the opportunity to work with, I have seen them all be able to do this for students. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:27.200 And maybe at the time they didn't think, like, well, what am I ever going to use this for? 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:36.240 But I think that's for such a time as now that we're living in with you know the of the technology that those skills become very important. 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:52.400 The other thing I wanted to kind of hit on because you talked about it as far as like media literacy, but I I want to get your your input on this and what your thoughts are, because we always hear the phrase AI literacy. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:00.240 And we hear it so many times from so many presenters, and there's never really a lot of consistency. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:10.319 It's like each presenter has their own spin on what AI literacy is, or each company has their spin on it, or uh consulting firms and so on. 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:17.039 So it just seems like it's thrown out there, it looks nice, it reads nice because we got to talk about it. 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:33.519 But you know, AI literacy, media literacy, information literacy, you know, all of these literacies there there's so many out there, but I want to ask you, you know, what is it that we should really be focusing on? 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:59.920 Maybe just in that library or librarian perspective, how can librarians and libraries together in in schools be able to help our teachers really bring AI literacy to the forefront so that as students go back to their classes, they can be like, okay, I this is what I've learned, this is what I've done. 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:02.319 So, what are your thoughts on that? 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.319 Oh, okay. 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:05.839 Well, how much time do you have? 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:17.920 Because it it no, it's it's a huge, it's a huge, it's a monumental task, and there are only a certain number of hours in a day. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:25.920 Um so just to kind of backtrack, so I can kind of weave in how I want to answer this. 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:47.200 I think the school librarians' responsibility to teach AI is reflective of

what and how the schools or districts have um created AI education and policy. 00:19:47.200 --> 00:20:08.160 If a school or district's AI policy or technology policy is weak, then there is going to be limited opportunities for the school librarian to actively participate and engage in opportunities that allow them to teach and lead student lessons or technology trainings for staff. 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:26.559 And this is probably one of the biggest reasons why school librarians need to be involved in AI education, because generative technologies dramatically lower the barrier to creating convincing information, right? 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:40.079 A polished article, let's say, no longer necessarily requires a strong writer, which is kind of sad, but a professional-looking image no longer necessarily requires advanced design skills. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:53.359 Um, synthetic audio video make it increasingly difficult to assume that seeing or hearing something automatically makes it evidence, right? 00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:11.519 And because of that, I think that we need to move beyond information literacy as a worksheet or a checklist and start thinking about verification as a habit and yeah, as a daily habit. 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:40.400 And students need to learn to leave the original source and invase and investigate elsewhere, which brings the school library as a really great place to do that because there are so many tools, databases, uh, you know, websites, curated lists of reputable sources uh where students can explore that, right? 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:49.039 They need to, yeah, find the original claim, look for independent reporting, investigate who is behind a website. 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.480 You mentioned all these things that you did, right, in school. 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.920 And those are all skills that have stuck with you as an adult, right? 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.759 So maybe students are tracing quotations back to the source and finding. 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:11.279 An original study instead of relying on someone's summary of it or a Google search summary of it and compare information across credible sources, right? 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:19.599 And one of the hardest things that we may have to teach students right now is friction. 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.799 Like slow down, you know. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:28.559 I mean, do not immediately share something because it makes you angry, you know. 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:34.720 Do not immediately believe it because it confirms something that you already think. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.519 You know, don't assume that the first answer you receive is correct. 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:44.400 Pause, you know, stop, investigate. 00:22:44.400 --> 00:23:00.799 Teaching students that thoughtful pause and reflection is has to become increasingly important in an information environment designed around um speed and reaction, right? 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.640 Technology media just moves so, so fast, right? 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:13.039 And I don't want to put the sole responsibility of teaching AI or multiple literacies just on the school librarian. 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.960 I think it's everyone's responsibility if you work in K-12, right? 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:18.720 In any education space. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.680 But I think that school librarians are very uniquely positioned to help lead it. 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.359 And I want to emphasize the word lead, lead, okay? 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.119 Not own, but lead. 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:37.119 And I don't want AI literacy to become one more thing that gets dropped on the librarian's lap simply because it involves a computer, right? 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:51.519 And we're really good with computers, you know, but teachers, admins, um, instructional technologists, curriculum specialists, IT departments, families, everyone has a role to play. 00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:05.200 Um what we do have as school librarians is expertise in information and information access and how that information gets uh gets found and used. 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:21.920 And we're already teaching research, inquiry, source evaluation, uh, copyright, ethical information use, digital citizenship, media literacy, how to use a database, when to use a database, uh, information creation. 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:32.640 AI intersects with nearly every one of those areas, uh especially since they're so embedded in all the tools that we use now. 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:39.279 I can't open an application or my web browser and not find some sort of AI feature within it. 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:51.039 So, in many ways, AI literacy does not require school librarians to reinvent our uh, I guess like our professional identity. 00:24:51.039 --> 00:25:00.319 Um, I think it requires us to apply the professional identity we already have to a new information environment, right? 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:18.960 And one of the biggest practical concerns that I hear from school librarians, even students in my courses, is we cannot keep adding new literacies to our plate as though somebody secretly gave us, you know, a 37-hour day. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.480 It's just impossible. 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:37.119 So, what I've told, you know, my students, especially for those already in the school library and they're finding themselves at a crossroads, I was like, you can't maybe add this to your plate, right? 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:42.319 But we have to consider that we already have professional standards. 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:59.039 We have, in addition to our state standards, the American Association of School Librarian standards, which are national library standards, we have the ISD standards, which help us target technology skills, we have a future-ready librarians framework, uh, we have district priorities. 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.279 Um, and all of these things happen in the school library.

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:15.920 So I don't think that the answer to teaching any form of new literacy or specifically AI literacy can be, you know, answered in creating an isolated AI week, right? 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:28.319 Like we do with coding week, with with, you know, and trying to squeeze another unit into the calendar, I think we have to just already embed AI literacy into what we're already teaching, right? 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:38.160 So if students are researching, let's say, uh, you know, the Civil War, okay, well, we can talk about AI-generated search summaries and verification. 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.799 If students are evaluating sources, then we can introduce synthetic information. 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:49.680 If we're talking about copyright, we can bring in questions about generative content and attribution. 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:56.319 Um, if we're talking about digital citizenship, we can talk about AI privacy. 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:05.839 And if students are creating media, we can talk about appropriate assistance, disclosure, authorship, uh visual hierarchies. 00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:12.160 You know, so we don't necessarily need to stop everything and teach AI as a separate subject. 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:18.559 I think we need to recognize where AI has changed the things we already are responsible for teaching and adapt. 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:19.440 I love it. 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:25.759 All of that that you said times a thousand, like you really hit the nail on the head, honestly, because you're absolutely right. 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:34.960 We we've separated, I and I love what you said, teaching so many literacies because everybody has their own version of AI literacy. 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.759 Then you've got the digital literacy or digital citizenship, and you've got everything going on. 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:44.720 But I love what you stated and being able to just bring it all together. 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:50.640 And of course, looking at you not only the state standards, but the professional standards, you've got ISTE standards. 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:54.960 So there are ways to be able to blend all of that in. 00:27:54.960 --> 00:28:14.880 And now with the changes, like we said, with generative AI coming into schools and platforms that are using that, what better way to still use that that same knowledge, but now using it through the whole year, as opposed to I love what you said, just siloing it to like, oh, one week a year. 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:22.799 Yeah, you know, or you know what, here we're gonna do our 15 minutes compliance check just so we can check the check mark and do our digital citizenship lesson. 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:28.160 And oh, right, hooray, we did it the beginning of the year, and then everything else just falls by the wayside. 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:49.599 So I really love what you shared there, but most importantly, also what to me it seems like, and and and please forgive me again, just for for using this phrase, but it in the K-12 space, this is a phrase that I heard often and stating that librarians are support staff. 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:59.359 And that's something that I just it it just made me just like, ugh, you know, that why are you calling librarians support staff? 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:10.240 So in my mind, I'm thinking that because the way that you described it, the librarian role should be also seen as that instructional partner. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:23.200 It for, I mean, whether it's for a teacher, whether it's for admin, and so on, because like you said, the access to information, that knowledge, the knowledge base, the research. 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:44.640 And I often feel that the librarian role, being that it is seen as a support role, should actually have a seat at the table when maybe schools are developing AI policies or even selecting AI tools and helping design professional development as well. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:49.759 Now, I know that may sound like, oh man, that's like adding more to the plate, right? 00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:57.279 But I can't think of a better person that would be capable of doing such a thing with the axis. 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:07.279 And they already have that literacy knowledge that I we said, like it just seems like everything is intertwining and overlapping. 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:13.920 So to me, it just seems like they should have a seat at the table and not be seen as support staff. 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:23.039 But like you said, in leading, you know, the learning that is taking place, and that is where there is such huge value. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:36.799 And I think that there are so many wonderful librarians out there that are trying to do that, but oftentimes kind of like, well, it it's librarian, let let the instructional coaches do it, or let's do this. 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:46.720 But that librarian is very well equipped to do those things, and also to have a seat at the table and be part of those decisions that are being made. 00:30:46.720 --> 00:31:03.519 And I think that's something that is amazing, and that you definitely highlighted there where you said that you know, to lead, not necessarily be like, okay, this is I just add it onto my plate, but I can help with the information and the knowledge and with what I'm teaching. 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:18.799 I uh again, I I'm just thinking everything that a librarian knows can definitely easily be translated to into policy, yeah, and help determine those policies that are there. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:24.799 So that's something that is important that I just kind of wanted to throw in there because that that phrase just irks me. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.519 Like, oh, it's there's the support staff. 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.400 No, they're not, you know, so they are professionals as well. 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.559 So uh thank you so much for definitely highlighting, you know,

that as well. 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:58.559 But um, and now I want to ask you, you know, because this is something that is very important, and because I also see you, you know, going to conferences and presenting and providing professional development to librarians or media specialists, anybody that is working in that field and working with students and helping them find information. 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:20.799 And so I know that you've done significant work in professional learning and professional development, but I want to ask you right now, at this time, if there is a training or a specifically in generative AI training for librarians, how should well, what should that training look like? 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:37.759 For example, some of your students that are coming in, how is it that you're working with them to equip them to, you know, be well prepared for you know libraries now and where they may go in the next five to ten years because of generative AI? 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.319 Oh, that's a really good question. 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:55.440 Um, and there's no concrete answer because technology moves so fast, and all these platforms that are on the scene right now are gonna be, you know, providing updates in the next week or two, I'm assuming. 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:58.960 The you said that I was on your show, what, in 2020? 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:06.960 In the past six years, technology changed so fast and dramatically. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:16.160 Uh, there are now defunct apps that I loved using in the school library that no longer exist. 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:35.039 And you bring up a really good question because I think what comes to mind is anytime I'm leading a professional learning um session is well, what should we do? 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:36.880 What should we be doing tomorrow? 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.480 You know, how can I use this the next day? 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:44.640 What give me something that I can take back and implement immediately. 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:58.240 And I always tell, I tell my students and I tell librarians, and this is applicable to any tech tool, is librarians do not need to be tech engineers, AI engineers. 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:02.960 You know, start with something that you're already teaching, make it familiar. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:10.079 If you teach research, introduce an AI-generated response and have students verify it. 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:17.599 If you teach digital citizenship, you know, bring in privacy and data sharing, as a matter of fact. 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:40.639 Um I've been really careful about and intentional about mentioning uh companies who provide curriculum for AI literacy, but I think common sense media does a great job at offering educators free bite-sized lessons because school librarians' time is limited. 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:52.079 Um and if you teach copyright, that's a great opportunity to introduce authorship, attribution, uh, generative content, where that comes from. 00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:00.719 Um and, you know, I think, like you said, there's a misconception that school librarians are just support staff. 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:08.079 And I don't think that AI or new technologies are replacing research. 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:13.360 I think AI has just become the thing that we're critically researching now. 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:20.800 So it feels very aligned with what we do, with the role of the school librarian. 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:31.440 And I think librarians are actually more prepared, if anything, that we sometimes realize because this is not fundamentally a machine learning problem for us. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.920 It's an information problem. 00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:39.440 And we're experts at finding and evaluating information, right? 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:40.639 Who created this information? 00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:41.440 Where did it come from? 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:42.079 Who owns it? 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:43.199 Can I trust it? 00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.159 How should I use it? 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.840 What are my ethical responsibilities? 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.039 Who has access? 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:52.400 You know, whose voices are represented, whose are left out, what information am I giving away? 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.360 What does this platform know about me? 00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:06.239 All of those questions should, should sound really familiar because we've been teaching versions of them for decades. 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.920 The only thing that's changed is the platform. 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:23.360 And the technology has changed, but the information environment itself, the ecosystem in which it's exchanged, you know, but but the underlying professional questions are very much within our wheelhouse. 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:40.639 And, you know, this often leads into discourse about, because I see it online from librarians that I follow, is should I be an optimistic or pessimistic uh, you know, user of AI? 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:49.199 And I don't know personally if I would call myself either one because it's hard. 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:56.159 I would say though, that I'm curious and I'm critical, you know, maybe cautiously curious. 00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:58.400 And I think I heard that phrase somewhere. 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.320 It might have been from you, actually. 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:03.199 Well, I was gonna say it's like cautiously curious. 00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:07.679 I haven't heard that one, so I'll attribute that to you because I heard it from you, but I don't know. 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.639 We'll need to find the source. 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:13.519 But I I always use cautious advocate, so that's a big shout out to Dr. 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.480 Nika McGee, also because that's yeah, the same thing. 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:17.840 Cautious advocate, yeah. 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:30.000 Yes, cautious,

yes, definitely requires some cautious advocacy, some you know, cautious curiosity, because I think that there are genuinely exciting possibilities for any new technology. 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.920 And I think that there are concerning ones too, right? 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:42.239 I also don't think, and this is a personal opinion, that educators owe technology enthusiasm. 00:37:42.239 --> 00:38:04.639 You know, I think we owe students thoughtful decision making, uh, that we should be able to, you know, have due diligence and investigate a technology, test it, ask difficult questions, evaluate the evidence, change our minds if we need to, and decide that a tool may or may not be useful in one situation and inappropriate in another. 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:19.199 That's part of our responsibility as educators, and especially if you're a decision maker influencing policy, you know, it's not resistance to technology, it's literacy. 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:28.880 We have to practice our own form of literacy and evaluation of the things that we are promoting to and for children. 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:33.280 And oftentimes, you know, there's blind adoption. 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:47.599 I think a question that every educator should ask, you know, librarians, classroom teachers, administrators before using AI and before promoting it in the classroom is asking a very simple question. 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:53.840 And that's, you know, what part of the thinking and learning process am I asking the machine to do? 00:38:53.840 --> 00:39:02.079 You know, and was that thinking part um what the student was supposed to learn? 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:03.599 Or am I outsourcing it? 00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:09.440 You know, if the machine is removing an irrelevant barrier, great. 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.559 I'm all about efficiency. 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:17.039 But if it's, you know, supporting accessibility, that could be powerful. 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:24.719 Uh if it's automating something that has nothing to do with the learning objective, maybe it could be completely appropriate, right? 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:34.880 But if the machine is doing the exact cognitive or creative work that I'm supposed to be teaching, then I think that's where we need to stop and reconsider how we're using it. 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:36.639 Nice. 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.840 That was powerful. 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:38.800 I love that. 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:50.320 Now, I want to ask you too, like, so as we're kind of you know on the tail end of finishing up our conversation here, but you know, the work that you've done, very spectacular. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:59.920 I've gotten to see it with my own eyes, you know, on social media, and then of course hearing of all the great things that you've done at presenting and receiving accolades and so on. 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:30.480 So the one thing that I have loved about your work though is that you have always, always, I don't

want to say gone against the grain or anything, but just you know, you've challenged the stereotype of what happens in a library, you know, talking about esports, you know, talking about library ambassadors, you know, one of the first ones to do that, I believe, like the whole library ambassadors, and then after that, others followed, you know, and so on, and doing those things. 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:46.320 But, you know, I want to ask you, what is it that we need to start thinking about now in how we should start designing the library space for our students? 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:56.079 And maybe, you know, for for the next five to ten years, what are some things we need to start considering now that you see would be very helpful? 00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:19.440 Or maybe some may feel like, oh, maybe that's that's a little out there, but again, with your experience that you have have had, everything that you've done that normally goes against, you know, libraries has always provided and produced a lot of wonderful fruit in students and just you know, a lot of great things that students get to take with them. 00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:23.519 What are your ideas and what would that look like? 00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:29.119 Oh, I love the in a perfect world type of questions. 00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:35.280 What would you do with unlimited funding, unlimited resources, unlimited support? 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.599 And I used to, I still do. 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:47.599 I daydream of what kind of you know, what kind of library I would have if, you know, money, budgets, staffing weren't an issue. 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:58.400 What I found to be most successful in the school library that I led was, like you mentioned, students at the forefront of their learning. 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:13.360 You mentioned esports, library ambassadors, and all of those things have been were, I should say, were highly successful because kids learn through play. 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:18.559 And that's something that's often missing in schools. 00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:37.280 We have I have a lot of strong feelings about the current climate of public school systems and the emphasis that is put on standardized testing. 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:47.599 And the most successful library programs that I had all put creativity and play at the center of student learning. 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:56.719 And I think I have said to other librarians that I feel very strongly about it because kids need to learn through play. 00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:59.119 It's a fundamental experience. 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:06.719 And when I say play, I don't mean because I have a kid, you know, I don't mean wasting time or doing something frivolous. 00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:12.559 You know, play at its core is experimentation. 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:16.320 You know, they're learning about the world around them for the first time. 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.840 They don't have the experience that we do as adults. 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:39.360 So it's giving them an opportunity and a space to try something new, realizing that maybe it doesn't work, maybe it does, you know, moving it around, laughing because something's ridiculous, you know, something that they changed or did. 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:48.400 Learning that failure is okay, and that the library can be a safe space to practice that. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:59.599 And providing them the opportunity to try again without judgment, you know, and you know, this actually kind of reminds me of a conversation. 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:42.800 was having with the librarian on social media because they brought up that they did not want they didn't want to use technology for a lesson and it was really a conversation about you know we're gonna make something creative and don't outsource it to gen AI you know and it was something as simple as you know asking students to make a poster and you know while new technologies can make something look beautiful or you know depending on what your taste is you know it's asking ourselves now what role do the tools that we introduce into the school library bypass? 00:44:43.199 --> 00:47:47.199 And I think in the future when we're developing strong school library programs what we need to ask ourselves is what what do student what can students get out of this learning experience right we want them to use their brain to its highest potential right we want them to be able to push their intellectual boundaries we want them to experiment and we want them to feel safe doing so so if I could you know propose a blueprint of what a successful and you know I guess impactful school library program would look like in 30 years it's not outsourcing school programming to a new innovation but putting its patrons at the center of all decision making nice awesome oh my gosh that like you that was very eloquently said uh I love every piece that you shared there and I think that's something that hopefully all our audience and all our school leaders are listening to and maybe changing that perception of what the library is and what the library can do can already offer and maybe that they are overlooking that which brings me to my next question for you which is if you could challenge every superintendent principal or district leader that is listening right now to this episode to rethink one assumption that they have about libraries or librarians what would you want them to reconsider that we are not just keepers of books our role is multifaceted and also that there is a constant pressure to adopt the next new thing you know there's often an initiative overload with upper admins disguised as innovation and I think that we need to they need to place trust in their library faculty to teach to lead give them the time that needs to be allotted to do their jobs well trust their professional expertise because they're trained in this area and if they are in Texas school librarians need to be

certified teachers first. 00:47:47.679 --> 00:48:32.239 They bring that that pedagogical experience that rapport with students that can't always be you know experienced in a in a traditional classroom so I would I would love to to have a conversation with superintendents and administrators and show them that school librarians provide so much more than what they think because their perceptions may be rooted in what they experienced as a kid and school librarianship has changed so much. 00:48:32.239 --> 00:49:00.480 It's changed so much in the past five years you know and it's constantly evolving its ecosystem is constantly adapting and school librarians are just the best people ever and I can honestly say every school librarian that I've met has just been so willing to help innovate partner with just you know just trust them. 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:06.800 That's what I would say trust them to do their jobs the way you want someone to trust you to do yours. 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:07.840 Love it. 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:39.119 That's wonderful now my last question so we can wrap this one up with a nice little bow on here just to really get and and you've been so great at answering these so honestly and from the heart but also for librarians that are out there right now that are listening and maybe right now still might be feeling a little overlooked or may feel a little unsure of themselves right now with so much change in technology and with generative AI. 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.960 What would you want them to hear from you today? 00:49:43.599 --> 00:50:25.360 Aw that they're magnificent and they're doing everything that they can with what they have and they were trained for this they're an expert in their field they're amazing and I think sometimes we take libraries and librarians for granted because they've always been there and libraries and librarians are just some of the few spaces and people that are built around the idea that like our core belief is that access to information knowledge technology opportunities to learn should not depend entirely on what we can afford but what we're willing to learn and share. 00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:26.639 Nice. 00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:28.000 Awesome well Dr. 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:32.800 Q, it has been an honor it has been a pleasure to speak with you today. 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.079 Thank you so much for being an amazing guest. 00:50:36.079 --> 00:51:11.360 Thank you so much for the work that you do all the advocacy that you do and for libraries and it's such an important space and there are so many wonderful librarians out there that are doing it every single day and those that are really trying to do it because you know either budgets or you know directives and things of that sort but thank you so much for giving us your perspective and really highlighting the amazing work and the talent that is in a library like I said it's like I always thought of it and as the learning hub. 00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:30.880 When I was teaching Atlanta Mentory hey this is my learning hub this is the heart of what helps me be a better teacher you know in the classroom and so thank you for that and uh just I wish you the best continue doing what you're doing my friend but before we wrap up let our audience members know how it is that they might be able to connect with you. 00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:39.760 Oh so I always joke that I'm chronically online so and uh I have a meme sharing problem. 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:46.880 So if you want to reach me I'm on Instagram at q the librarian and it's spelled C U E the librarian. 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.559 That's usually where I'm at. 00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:53.920 I don't have any other social media or maybe LinkedIn but I don't even use that to be honest with you. 00:51:53.920 --> 00:52:03.440 Instagram is where you can find me or email email yeah that's the one I use but more than anything yeah social media. 00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:15.920 And um yeah honestly if anyone has any questions or they just want to chat or just need some reassurance or they need someone to be their cheerleader and tell them they're doing a great job perfect person. 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:16.719 Hit me up. 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:24.719 Perfect we'll definitely make sure that we put that Instagram link there in the show notes so all our audience members can go ahead and reach out. 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:42.400 But again thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and it was wonderful to catch up with you and again just to see everything that you've been able to do and accomplish has been just wonderful and I'm glad that you know that you and I have crossed paths because we it's similar paths in many ways. 00:52:42.400 --> 00:53:08.239 So it's just fantastic to have you on the show and be able to talk to you as well and you're my ed tech brother there you go yes I love it and then also I get I got to you know hang out with your husband a couple of times too as well and you guys both fantastic so he's awesome so big shout out of you by the way big shout out to Oscar all right thank you and Oliver who's probably there and might be listening. 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:09.039 So it's awesome. 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:14.320 So as you can see folks it's almost like we almost grew up together in that sense. 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:22.079 So it's been fantastic but thank you so much my friends and for all my audience members please make sure you uh hit the subscribe button on YouTube. 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:39.920 Follow us on all social media as well make sure you visit the website at myedtech.life where you can check out this amazing episode and the other 375 plus episodes that we have available where I promise you you will find some knowledge nuggets that you can sprinkle onto what you are already doing great. 00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:54.719 And again big shout out to Comeback Coffee Book Creator Eduaid and Peel Back Education for your support so we can bring you some amazing conversations that'll continue to help us grow professionally and personally as well. 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:59.360 So my friends until next time don't forget stay techie