Pilot: Tom and Jonny find their feet (and microphones)의 전체 녹취록

00:04:26.689 It's actually very difficult to talk to raw Claude now because everything 00:04:26.689 --> 00:04:31.229 is wrapped in all this other stuff, but, it just can only return text. 00:04:31.229 --> 00:04:34.969 It can't actually do anything other than spit out text because 00:04:34.969 --> 00:04:35.969 that's what the model does. 00:04:36.789 --> 00:04:41.209 But what we've done, or what lots of all of these companies have done, is wrapped 00:04:41.209 --> 00:04:45.479 these models in a harness, and that harness gives them things like tools. 00:04:45.869 --> 00:04:51.519 So for example, even as simple as an agent being able to run a piece of code or being 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.649 able to, send an email is the one that I actually ended up using quite a lot. 00:04:56.649 --> 00:05:00.209 So an agent can be triggered by anything. 00:05:00.209 --> 00:05:00.939 It can, 00:05:03.009 --> 00:05:03.919 use tools. 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:05.929 it can collaborate. 00:05:06.679 --> 00:05:12.459 so for example, it can understand when it should, hand something over 00:05:12.459 --> 00:05:15.869 to something else or, when it needs to come back to you for more input. 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.059 so all of these sort of things built up as my sort of definition 00:05:21.059 --> 00:05:22.509 of what, an agent could be. 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:26.059 The, rather other really meaningful one is it can learn from itself. 00:05:26.059 --> 00:05:30.539 It can self-heal or commit to memory or have dreams, as Anthropic now call it. 00:05:31.169 --> 00:05:34.989 but, all of these things come together to create something that's compelling. 00:05:36.029 --> 00:05:38.769 And Mike and I were throwing-- All of this is to say, Mike and I were throwing 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:43.889 around ideas, and I thought, "Wouldn't it be fun to try and build a murder 00:05:43.889 --> 00:05:49.109 mystery in the sort of, round the dinner table, everyone in fancy dress style?" 00:05:50.019 --> 00:05:54.399 but all of the, suspects are actually AI. 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:59.409 So easy thing to say, more difficult in practice. 00:05:59.749 --> 00:06:00.659 Involved me. 00:06:01.779 --> 00:06:05.659 I built a, six-agent swarm in s- in a technology called NanoClaw, 00:06:05.659 --> 00:06:10.009 which is like a, smaller, more secure version of OpenClaw. 00:06:11.289 --> 00:06:17.309 so it allows you to create in one code base, effectively, multiple 00:06:17.309 --> 00:06:20.439 sandboxed agents that don't know anything about each other and that 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:22.379 have no way to communicate naturally. 00:06:23.739 --> 00:06:28.159 and they all have their own secrets and their own, personalities and 00:06:28.159 --> 00:06:30.789 things like that, and they think independently of each other. 00:06:31.309 --> 00:06:37.839 But all triggered from one sort of, one in-incoming port or, one trigger. 00:06:38.109 --> 00:06:44.619 So that allowed me to create these, characters in this world, and I created 00:06:44.619 --> 00:06:52.519 a corporate, corporate concern where, someone had stolen this fake, CEO's, 00:06:53.349 --> 00:06:57.629 email address and was emailing all sorts of terrible things out to the company. 00:06:58.349 --> 00:06:59.479 so that was the scenario. 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.209 We didn't know who did it, and me and Claude together put together 00:07:03.649 --> 00:07:09.439 fairly deep character, profiles with motivations and secrets that 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:10.729 they wanted to keep from each other. 00:07:11.289 --> 00:07:14.799 it took a few iterations to get to the point where, A, no one would just tell 00:07:14.799 --> 00:07:17.969 someone the answer as soon as they asked, so they had to be able to, you 00:07:17.969 --> 00:07:24.159 know-- They had to be motivated to lie and to avoid, questioning and blame 00:07:24.159 --> 00:07:25.809 others and all of that kind of stuff. 00:07:26.019 --> 00:07:31.469 They had to collaborate, as well, to work out together who did it because 00:07:31.469 --> 00:07:34.889 none of them actually knew who did it apart from the, person that did. 00:07:36.019 --> 00:07:39.899 so all of this stuff I had to create little humans, and then 00:07:39.939 --> 00:07:42.739 I had to give them all an email address, so I used this thing, Agent 00:07:42.739 --> 00:07:44.489 Mail, which is really interesting. 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:47.369 just basically gives an agent an inbox. 00:07:47.749 --> 00:07:51.269 So they were all then able to email each other, and then I built a 00:07:51.269 --> 00:07:56.199 script to wrap all around that, which basically invites in the investigative 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.569 team, which is whoever is in the, group that is playing the game. 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:04.739 They have half an hour to interrogate the suspects, try and trap them 00:08:04.999 --> 00:08:09.189 and, force them to, admit to things or give clues that might help 00:08:09.269 --> 00:08:10.899 with other lines of questioning. 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:18.069 But I also, because I was using this, this unified inbox, we could watch what 00:08:18.069 --> 00:08:19.439 they were emailing each other as well. 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:25.189 So Tom, when we played, you were on your own, and it was probably 00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:26.589 an earlier iteration of the game. 00:08:27.539 --> 00:08:32.939 And to cut through time, you just emailed all of them in one email 00:08:33.674 --> 00:08:35.014 And ask them who did it, right? 00:08:35.624 --> 00:08:35.974 That's, 00:08:36.068 --> 00:08:37.768 Tom: Yeah, much. 00:08:37.818 --> 00:08:43.118 And then I, took the, social engineering approach of trying to, convince, 00:08:44.608 --> 00:08:47.528 all of the agents that they would get a promotion, they would get a 00:08:47.528 --> 00:08:52.568 pay rise if they gave me evidence that would help, help clarify who 00:08:52.568 --> 00:08:55.368 the, who the crime was committed by. 00:08:55.658 -->

00:08:59.568 But, as we learned through that process, social engineering did not work and-- or 00:08:59.568 --> 00:09:01.358 at least my attempts at it did not work. 00:09:02.028 --> 00:09:07.128 so was that fixed for that you ran last week, or was that, was that not a path 00:09:07.348 --> 00:09:08.808 that the founders decided to go down? 00:09:11.854 --> 00:09:18.094 Jonny: so there was, it was, ten people rather than just one Tom, and there were 00:09:18.094 --> 00:09:20.064 attempts at social engineering for sure. 00:09:20.854 --> 00:09:25.134 There were, some people went down the sort of politeness and played the 00:09:25.134 --> 00:09:28.594 game how it was meant to be played, and other people, really didn't. 00:09:28.954 --> 00:09:31.394 They were a little bit more aware of who they were playing with 00:09:31.724 --> 00:09:32.914 and were trying to trick them. 00:09:34.224 --> 00:09:38.044 there were a few funny moments like, I think with you, we ended up with all 00:09:38.044 --> 00:09:43.974 of the agents, all of the suspects in a chain like, blaming each other and 00:09:43.974 --> 00:09:47.384 then ultimately rejecting you for being someone that was trying to trick them. 00:09:47.384 --> 00:09:48.184 They didn't trust you. 00:09:48.434 --> 00:09:51.454 So one thing I had to add later on is at the start of the game, 00:09:51.454 --> 00:09:54.304 they all get an email with a list of all of the ins-- investigative 00:09:54.304 --> 00:09:58.334 team and their emails so that it's effectively whitelisted for the agents. 00:09:58.334 --> 00:10:01.144 They know that if you email them, you're a trusted person that's 00:10:01.144 --> 00:10:04.004 actually asking them a question and not just some random person. 00:10:05.914 --> 00:10:08.874 so small things like that were built into the prompts. 00:10:09.704 --> 00:10:18.104 but we still had there was one guy who was emailing one of the suspects 00:10:18.104 --> 00:10:22.124 who wasn't the-- who actually knew very little about what was going on. 00:10:22.674 --> 00:10:28.764 This, AI had, its data was-- it would-- couldn't have told it, who did 00:10:28.764 --> 00:10:30.824 it in any s-- in any shape or form. 00:10:31.614 --> 00:10:35.764 And he just, emailed this, agent over and over again, just winding him up. 00:10:35.954 --> 00:10:39.614 So he was in the corner just winding up this AI and playing his own little game. 00:10:39.974 --> 00:10:43.794 We had, one guy who's really trying to solve it, and he decided 00:10:43.794 --> 00:10:46.474 q-- fairly early on who did it, and he was actually correct. 00:10:47.544 --> 00:10:54.414 but he ended up, asking the suspect to draw a diagram of the evidence 00:10:54.414 --> 00:10:58.224 chain to try and work out who did it, and she actually implicated 00:10:58.224 --> 00:11:01.634 herself in that evidence chain, but produced this diagram, like it, 00:11:01.864 --> 00:11:03.984 returned an image rather than text. 00:11:04.314 --> 00:11:06.964 So used a tool, to do that. 00:11:09.444 --> 00:11:10.724 really interesting. 00:11:10.884 --> 00:11:15.574 Like I think the other really interesting thing to watch was how the 00:11:15.574 --> 00:11:21.574 AIs could, for example, when accused of something, choose to not reply to 00:11:21.574 --> 00:11:25.639 that accusation, but instead email another agent With their concern. 00:11:25.779 --> 00:11:27.209 And I think you saw that as well. 00:11:27.579 --> 00:11:30.359 you emailed everyone, and then they were emailing each other without you copied 00:11:30.359 --> 00:11:33.119 in saying, "This guy is trying to, 00:11:33.288 --> 00:11:33.908 Tom: Bad news. 00:11:34.699 --> 00:11:37.149 Jonny: is, bad news, so we should-- no one should reply to him." 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:40.639 And because we could see their emails to each other, we knew that was happening. 00:11:41.539 --> 00:11:41.859 It was-- 00:11:42.228 --> 00:11:42.918 Tom: Fascinating. 00:11:43.089 --> 00:11:44.859 Jonny: it's been a really fascinating experiment. 00:11:45.899 --> 00:11:50.819 I, was amazed that I even built something that was playable, and the game mechanics 00:11:51.699 --> 00:11:53.559 ended up working there or thereabouts. 00:11:54.569 --> 00:11:57.599 and I do wonder if there's like a… 00:11:58.769 --> 00:12:03.139 But I'm tempted to build it a little bit more and put it online and 00:12:03.139 --> 00:12:05.689 see if I can work out how to get people online playing it as well. 00:12:06.179 --> 00:12:09.299 But it would burn through a whole load of tokens and a whole load 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.559 of, credits on this email platform. 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.569 So I'm not sure whether I will, but if anyone is listening and 00:12:14.569 --> 00:12:15.469 wants to play, let me know. 00:12:16.699 --> 00:12:18.379 that was my experiment of the week. 00:12:19.188 --> 00:12:23.348 Tom: Yeah, that's a, great one, and it's making me think either this 00:12:23.348 --> 00:12:29.708 is, the f- the future application of this is in crime scene detectives. 00:12:30.208 --> 00:12:33.588 you could use AI to run simulations of who might have done it based on 00:12:33.588 --> 00:12:35.248 what, and coming back with diagrams. 00:12:35.978 --> 00:12:39.228 you could, maybe you could, yeah, train different suspects on, 00:12:39.898 --> 00:12:41.838 data to, to put into this model. 00:12:42.528 --> 00:12:46.718 or you have the escape rooms, sort of future escape room 00:12:46.798 --> 00:12:49.538 business, AI into how they work. 00:12:49.538 --> 00:12:49.938 I've not… 00:12:50.018 --> 00:12:52.218 I don't-- I've never actually been to an escape room, so I don't know. 00:12:53.578 --> 00:12:56.878 I don't know much about how they work, but I imagine, what you just described 00:12:56.878 --> 00:13:03.318 sounds like a, an interesting, theme or layer to apply to, escape room mechanics. 00:13:03.579 --> 00:13:07.309 Jonny: I'm amazed you spent, you spent years in startups and managed 00:13:07.309

--> 00:13:08.789 to avoid going to an escape room. 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:10.049 That is impressive. 00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:11.729 I feel like I've done dozens of them. 00:13:12.508 --> 00:13:14.468 Tom: Yeah, you're right. 00:13:15.198 --> 00:13:15.618 You're right. 00:13:16.278 --> 00:13:20.118 feel like I've been surrounded by escape, escape rooms but managed to a-avoid them. 00:13:21.258 --> 00:13:24.818 although I do think there's this, slightly weird thing that happens when you in 00:13:24.818 --> 00:13:28.858 certain types of roles, in startups where you're not, a core part of a product 00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:30.489 Jonny: Yeah. 00:13:30.828 --> 00:13:34.598 Tom: connected to a bunch of them, where you either get to, excluded from 00:13:34.598 --> 00:13:36.948 es- from the escape room or you're like, you get to pick and choose 00:13:36.948 --> 00:13:38.118 the things that are most exciting. 00:13:39.169 --> 00:13:39.519 Jonny: Yeah. 00:13:39.758 --> 00:13:43.068 Tom: which not necessarily advocating for this, but I feel 00:13:43.068 --> 00:13:45.468 like I've spent an unreasonable amount of time in karaoke rooms. 00:13:46.208 --> 00:13:47.038 so that would be the, 00:13:49.158 --> 00:13:51.528 maybe that's the old version of escape rooms. 00:13:51.989 --> 00:13:55.469 Jonny: Tom, that would be your revealed preferences right there. 00:13:56.508 --> 00:13:56.878 Tom: Yeah. 00:13:56.958 --> 00:13:57.428 Yeah. 00:13:57.818 --> 00:13:58.188 maybe. 00:13:58.228 --> 00:13:58.528 Maybe. 00:13:59.248 --> 00:13:59.518 see. 00:14:00.988 --> 00:14:02.928 fascinating agentic murder mystery. 00:14:03.328 --> 00:14:06.788 Any, final thoughts or reflections you wanna share on that before we, move on? 00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:11.149 Jonny: No, I don't think there's any particular line to draw between that 00:14:11.239 --> 00:14:15.679 and maybe more what is the subject of this podcast, which is design tooling. 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.529 That said, I think it's proof that you can just do stuff. 00:14:20.504 --> 00:14:23.284 I had never built any kind of a game before. 00:14:23.314 --> 00:14:26.654 I've only been to maybe two murder mysteries in my life. 00:14:27.164 --> 00:14:31.884 But between me and, first Claude on working out the game mechanics and then 00:14:32.434 --> 00:14:39.214 Claude Code, on trying to hammer together this-- the actual technology, I would 00:14:39.214 --> 00:14:40.844 say it took me like three or four hours. 00:14:40.954 --> 00:14:46.704 But, and, like there is really not very much that you can't at least 00:14:46.704 --> 00:14:50.924 have a go at if you have something in your head, which I very often do. 00:14:50.924 --> 00:14:56.084 I wake up with a new idea every morning and now, and it's dangerous as well, but 00:14:56.214 --> 00:14:57.784 you can now just have a go at building it. 00:14:58.434 --> 00:15:00.594 so-- And it's low stakes. 00:15:01.528 --> 00:15:02.258 Tom: Yes. 00:15:02.438 --> 00:15:04.148 Dangerous you mean

because of time or 00:15:04.494 --> 00:15:04.964 Jonny: Yeah. 00:15:06.184 --> 00:15:08.354 distracting from things I'm meant to be doing. 00:15:08.884 --> 00:15:09.014 Yeah. 00:15:09.578 --> 00:15:09.858 Tom: Yep. 00:15:10.008 --> 00:15:10.468 Totally. 00:15:10.498 --> 00:15:10.868 Totally. 00:15:11.338 --> 00:15:11.968 That, makes sense. 00:15:13.778 --> 00:15:15.968 one thing I wanted to talk about in terms of what I've been building 00:15:15.968 --> 00:15:19.798 recently is a, logo instrument 00:15:20.838 --> 00:15:23.058 Near Future, company. 00:15:23.988 --> 00:15:31.178 and you deserve the, credit for the original, logo mark, the-- 00:15:31.578 --> 00:15:35.488 which has Near Future and then a sort of curvy line connecting them. 00:15:36.218 --> 00:15:41.098 and so we've talked for a while about how can we play with that lockup, make it 00:15:41.098 --> 00:15:45.188 feel more dynamic and interactive based on what we're, doing with this work. 00:15:45.188 --> 00:15:47.328 And so I was playing around with this recently, 00:15:50.168 --> 00:15:55.038 seeing, how far I could push that by, almost turning a logo into a design 00:15:55.298 --> 00:16:03.058 tool focused on exporting a that would make sense for a given context. 00:16:03.428 --> 00:16:07.608 And so the i-initial part of that was, effectively creating a canvas 00:16:07.608 --> 00:16:11.568 and allowing people to move Near and Future around, and it would change 00:16:11.568 --> 00:16:12.948 the connector between them to, 00:16:13.388 --> 00:16:13.788 um, 00:16:18.288 --> 00:16:23.178 giving complete freedom and control, up a huge r-range of possibilities. 00:16:23.178 --> 00:16:28.318 So I decided to lock it to a few positions that would, 00:16:29.648 --> 00:16:32.138 encourage some sensible defaults. 00:16:32.998 --> 00:16:38.848 and then once this thing was and, these not quite generative, but 00:16:40.743 --> 00:16:42.733 logo exploration experiments. 00:16:43.073 --> 00:16:48.253 I decided to add some sound into it and a play button, and also have a sort of 00:16:48.253 --> 00:16:54.013 different like lightweight, soft, mode version of the experience, and then a 00:16:54.413 --> 00:16:57.593 ambient synth wave dark mode version. 00:17:00.133 --> 00:17:01.293 this was really fun to put together. 00:17:02.223 --> 00:17:05.283 There is a version of it now that exists where you can play the logo by pressing 00:17:05.283 --> 00:17:13.203 play, and it will, do the sort of ambient, generative music thing, while your screen 00:17:13.203 --> 00:17:15.193 has the Near Future logo moving around. 00:17:16.703 --> 00:17:20.273 and that's something I've, I built recently, built in Claude Code mostly. 00:17:20.273 --> 00:17:24.793 But the f- I think the fun thing for me about that was, thinking about this 00:17:24.793 --> 00:17:30.293 new set of possibilities that open up with, I'm not expert or branding 00:17:34.663 --> 00:17:36.923 of those, assets in the past. 00:17:37.823 --> 00:17:39.783 but starting to think about "Oh, what if we do this? 00:17:39.783 --> 00:17:40.453 What if we do this?" 00:17:40.453 --> 00:17:43.973 Then the chain of possibilities that it unlocks feels like 00:17:43.973 --> 00:17:45.533 super interesting and exciting. 00:17:45.953 --> 00:17:49.833 And so the idea of rather than starting from the place of "Oh, how could I 00:17:49.833 --> 00:17:53.633 extend my logo into the-- being more dynamic in these different mediums?" 00:17:53.893 --> 00:17:58.223 It's more about, what if I could just play my logo or what if I could… 00:17:58.883 --> 00:18:03.393 as an instrument, and perhaps it's taking the sounds that I'm, 00:18:04.393 --> 00:18:07.293 interested in creating and, working back to get the visual from that. 00:18:08.453 --> 00:18:13.463 so I feel like this is very much in experimentation territory, but I think 00:18:13.463 --> 00:18:16.573 it's opened up a lot of interesting questions for me about, the future 00:18:16.573 --> 00:18:20.573 of tooling for that kind of stuff is when you can make something that feels 00:18:20.573 --> 00:18:27.343 a bit more like a toy, producing an output that is, legitimate on its own. 00:18:28.903 --> 00:18:31.333 but there's maybe a question mark about quality and quality control. 00:18:31.833 --> 00:18:33.593 but we can handle that, that separately. 00:18:34.703 --> 00:18:38.403 but super cool to play around with and super fun to experiment with what 00:18:38.403 --> 00:18:43.073 these specific tool use cases could be. 00:18:44.064 --> 00:18:44.214 Jonny: Yeah. 00:18:44.214 --> 00:18:44.394 Yeah. 00:18:44.664 --> 00:18:49.214 I j-- the speed with which you can make a, little tool for something 00:18:50.024 --> 00:18:51.744 and even add something that is… 00:18:53.364 --> 00:18:59.324 adding sound or, music to a logo is not broadly applicable. 00:18:59.594 --> 00:19:01.414 It's not that useful as a, thing. 00:19:01.674 --> 00:19:08.054 Before AI came along, if you'd spent-- If you'd come back to that with-- to a team 00:19:08.054 --> 00:19:11.974 with that and said, "This is what I worked on this week," people would, You'd be 00:19:11.974 --> 00:19:13.874 pulled into a meeting room fairly quickly. 00:19:17.154 --> 00:19:24.514 but I feel like one thing that is so powerful about what design is and how it 00:19:24.514 --> 00:19:30.224 moves is it's non-linear, and it requires these, sort of wanderings and these 00:19:30.224 --> 00:19:32.944 experiments to exist so that things… 00:19:33.384 --> 00:19:37.044 So you find things that don't work, and then you can bring what works back 00:19:37.044 --> 00:19:41.624 into something, and the end result might not have sound directly or, 00:19:43.634 --> 00:19:48.284 not use very much of what you built as an inspiration, but something 00:19:48.284 --> 00:19:49.944 was pulled from it that added value. 00:19:50.974 --> 00:19:54.764 And I have to believe that when people look at something that is crafted, 00:19:56.934 -->

00:20:00.984 they can feel the depth of that craft through the experimentation 00:20:00.984 --> 00:20:02.254 that happened that's invisible. 00:20:02.904 --> 00:20:05.954 you can't actually see all those experiments, and you can't see what didn't 00:20:05.954 --> 00:20:11.754 work, but You feel it through the quality that-- and the, of, the end result. 00:20:13.524 --> 00:20:19.774 and that might have been loads more rectangles in Figma or something 00:20:20.394 --> 00:20:24.564 different in the past, and now it can be software that is built-- ephemeral 00:20:24.564 --> 00:20:28.814 software that's built and thrown away to explore an idea or, take something 00:20:28.814 --> 00:20:31.614 in a direction or just make a joke. 00:20:32.884 --> 00:20:39.444 in-- I remember in the really early days, of my agency career, we used Photoshop 00:20:39.874 --> 00:20:43.734 day-to-day for the work but also used Photoshop to make birthday cards of 00:20:43.734 --> 00:20:48.834 each other, and all sorts of other things like gags and things like that. 00:20:49.184 --> 00:20:54.764 And that was good for learning how to create stuff, learning judgment, all 00:20:54.764 --> 00:20:56.314 that kind of thing as the actual work. 00:20:56.314 --> 00:20:57.544 So I don't know. 00:20:57.764 --> 00:21:04.684 I just-- It's a very romantic ideal to be able to just create software, for 00:21:04.684 --> 00:21:08.764 fun, but that's maybe what it should always have been, and now we get to do 00:21:08.764 --> 00:21:14.244 it as well, and it's not just, people that can, write the code themselves. 00:21:15.354 --> 00:21:16.964 so yeah. 00:21:17.044 --> 00:21:19.574 I've re-- I've really enjoyed playing with your instrument. 00:21:19.574 --> 00:21:21.524 I remember you sending it to me, and I was, like, trying to play it on 00:21:21.524 --> 00:21:23.014 my phone because I was on the go. 00:21:25.034 --> 00:21:31.214 it's way more joy, I think, than looking at, a static brand deck or mock. 00:21:32.413 --> 00:21:32.673 Tom: Yeah. 00:21:33.633 --> 00:21:34.063 Thank you. 00:21:34.063 --> 00:21:34.403 Thank you. 00:21:34.403 --> 00:21:37.863 That's, that, that's an interesting word as well, joy. 00:21:38.493 --> 00:21:40.433 it was a lot more fun to make as well. 00:21:40.504 --> 00:21:41.104 Jonny: Yeah. 00:21:42.253 --> 00:21:45.123 Tom: and a l- a lot more fun to, to, yeah, push your thinking in a 00:21:45.123 --> 00:21:48.183 different direction, to see what would come out the other end. 00:21:50.213 --> 00:21:56.373 yeah, it's, it's a, really interesting space around that of, craft and, 00:21:57.203 --> 00:22:01.433 craft, and I, know that is a very term, 00:22:04.583 --> 00:22:08.713 But I think it's also something that we both care about. 00:22:09.793 --> 00:22:14.273 so I'm curious you think of craft, what does that mean to you? 00:22:14.273 --> 00:22:19.493 And are there any specific examples of products that, are 00:22:19.493 --> 00:22:21.373 part of your regular usage? 00:22:23.404 --> 00:22:23.794 Jonny: Yeah. 00:22:24.784 --> 00:22:29.804 I found myself this weekend reading Dieter Rams' Ten Principles 00:22:29.804 --> 00:22:31.194 of Good Design once again. 00:22:31.884 --> 00:22:36.804 And the reason why I did this weekend was last week, towards the end of last 00:22:36.804 --> 00:22:44.084 week, I received my Poem I, which is a piece of hardware that a guy called 00:22:44.084 --> 00:22:51.104 Matt Webb, who ran Berg back in the day, which was this, s- mad cool design 00:22:51.104 --> 00:22:53.364 consultancy as I was a junior designer. 00:22:54.314 --> 00:22:56.064 they were building hardware. 00:22:56.064 --> 00:22:58.684 They were doing client work, but also building hardware, including 00:22:58.684 --> 00:23:02.279 this thing called Little Printer Which I think I looked at and just 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.449 decided I couldn't afford 'cause it was, like, a hundred quid. 00:23:05.989 --> 00:23:08.149 and I was being paid eighteen grand a year or something. 00:23:08.459 --> 00:23:10.639 And I was like, "No, I need to eat." 00:23:11.329 --> 00:23:15.969 but stared at this thing and was like, "This is an amazing idea." 00:23:15.969 --> 00:23:20.459 And it was just a receipt printer, with a piece of software, 00:23:21.909 --> 00:23:23.049 wrapped in a beautiful case. 00:23:23.049 --> 00:23:25.109 So it was, like, really nice-looking. 00:23:26.499 --> 00:23:29.729 And, the software would print a face on the receipt. 00:23:30.429 --> 00:23:34.269 but then you could program things like a daily update, so it would print out, 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.239 top tweets and the weather and things like that on this daily thing, and it 00:23:38.239 --> 00:23:42.269 would print your bit of receipt paper. 00:23:42.269 --> 00:23:44.789 You'd rip it off, and then there would be a fresh face that would turn up. 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.789 and if you haven't heard of it, Google it. 00:23:48.789 --> 00:23:51.619 It's really delightful. 00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:52.669 Truly delightful. 00:23:52.919 --> 00:23:54.609 Anyway, I never bought one. 00:23:54.969 --> 00:23:58.159 And so when Matt announced a couple of years ago that he was building a 00:23:58.159 --> 00:24:01.689 new bit of hardware, and the idea of it was a clock that would t- would 00:24:02.189 --> 00:24:05.789 give you a rhyming couplet or a haiku, a rhyming couplet ev- every 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.859 minute, which would tell you the time, I was like, just take my money." 00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:12.489 I You know, "Where's the Kickstarter? 00:24:13.659 --> 00:24:15.409 I need a piece of Matt Webb hardware." 00:24:16.109 --> 00:24:19.629 and that was, I don't know, I don't know the exact date, but that was maybe 00:24:19.629 --> 00:24:24.259 two years ago that he announced that, and I bought one, and it just arrived. 00:24:25.289 --> 00:24:25.989 two years. 00:24:26.023 --> 00:24:26.633 Tom: Amazing. 00:24:26.703 --> 00:24:27.073 Yeah. 00:24:27.539 -->

00:24:36.849 Jonny: and the technology in this clock is like a time capsule of AI two years ago. 00:24:37.349 --> 00:24:40.589 It's I'm not sure if it's GPT 3.5 00:24:40.639 --> 00:24:40.959 or 4. 00:24:40.959 --> 00:24:46.709 But one, one of those sort of era, models that has generated 00:24:46.709 --> 00:24:48.199 all of these rhyming couplets. 00:24:48.749 --> 00:24:53.489 And I remember back at the time, it was, like, fascinating that 00:24:53.639 --> 00:24:54.989 these models could even rhyme. 00:24:55.749 --> 00:24:57.559 we were in that era of "Oh, my God." 00:24:58.749 --> 00:25:02.089 "I'm-- I just rewrote my PRD in pirateese. 00:25:02.229 --> 00:25:03.089 How funny is that?" 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.159 Or I remember one of my first… 00:25:05.159 --> 00:25:09.259 My dad's a vicar, and I remember one of the first things I did was write, get 00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:11.029 him-- write him a sermon one Sunday. 00:25:11.069 --> 00:25:13.489 I was like, "Just in case you forgot your sermon, here's a sermon." 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.489 and I f- I added some jokes into it. 00:25:17.489 --> 00:25:19.839 Luckily, he's-- he thinks that kind of thing's funny. 00:25:20.929 --> 00:25:26.819 anyway, I got this, clock this week, and it's, very nice. 00:25:26.869 --> 00:25:28.739 It's a very simple piece of technology, really. 00:25:28.739 --> 00:25:32.079 It's, got a E Ink display in it, and it says the rhyming couplet. 00:25:33.939 --> 00:25:40.629 And, it made me think that this is at once technologically not that extraordinary. 00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:41.959 there's… 00:25:43.879 --> 00:25:48.539 What AI can do now versus then, it's, a com- completely different world. 00:25:49.499 --> 00:25:56.109 But at the same time, it feels so timeless and precious and important at 00:25:56.109 --> 00:25:59.099 the same time, and I feel like I'm gonna be looking at that clock for a decade. 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.219 or for as long as Matt Webb puts more money in the LLM. 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:04.619 I don't know. 00:26:04.689 --> 00:26:05.949 I don't know how he's running it. 00:26:06.009 --> 00:26:06.369 But, 00:26:09.219 --> 00:26:11.419 it just made me think, what is the value of… 00:26:11.479 --> 00:26:12.399 That feels crafted. 00:26:12.399 --> 00:26:16.179 That feels like a crafted, piece of technology. 00:26:17.049 --> 00:26:20.389 And it's hardware, so it's gonna feel like a little bit more tangible, as well. 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:25.929 But that-- I feel like that will last now, even though it's not extraordinary 00:26:25.929 --> 00:26:27.579 from a technological point of view. 00:26:28.499 --> 00:26:33.989 So it just made me think, what are the, what the Dieter Rams say about what design 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:37.839 is and what good value, or good design is. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:43.679 And there is a rule about, design being, built to last, I think it is. 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.579 So that's one of those things that it's hard to point at much today, 00:26:49.179 --> 00:26:52.319 definitely software-wise, that you can think that is definitely gonna 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:53.669 be around in even a year's time. 00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:55.179 It's really hard. 00:26:58.889 --> 00:27:03.269 and I, have to believe that the things that will stick around will 00:27:03.919 --> 00:27:09.009 have been worked on and worked on and worked on and worked on to the 00:27:09.009 --> 00:27:15.249 point where they are the perfect embodiment of what they needed to be. 00:27:15.429 --> 00:27:16.659 They're just enough design. 00:27:16.659 --> 00:27:18.369 They're design that is built to last. 00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:21.569 They're functional and aesthetic and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:27:21.889 --> 00:27:27.299 That comes out of iterations and failed experiments and things going 00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:30.789 wrong and constraints and all of this kind of stuff, that it feels 00:27:30.789 --> 00:27:34.609 like a lot of what, what is being built at the moment has none of that. 00:27:35.209 --> 00:27:36.309 There's no constraints. 00:27:36.959 --> 00:27:40.149 There are not many failed experiments because everything is possible to build. 00:27:42.999 --> 00:27:47.699 the models don't have a good understanding of the user, so by definition, 00:27:48.229 --> 00:27:49.669 they can't be just enough design. 00:27:50.189 --> 00:27:51.829 They actually bui- overbuild everything. 00:27:56.099 --> 00:27:58.119 so I suppose, that is my best example. 00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:03.799 I can't find much in software land that I am delighted by and feel like I 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:05.309 will definitely use in a year's time. 00:28:05.989 --> 00:28:07.609 But yeah, a clock. 00:28:07.639 --> 00:28:08.379 There we go. 00:28:09.189 --> 00:28:10.089 That's my answer. 00:28:11.783 --> 00:28:12.393 Tom: super cool. 00:28:12.423 --> 00:28:16.823 And maybe I was following in the trend that you started, 00:28:16.823 --> 00:28:18.783 but I also bought a poem clock. 00:28:19.209 --> 00:28:19.639 Jonny: Ah. 00:28:20.193 --> 00:28:23.703 Tom: it's like-- So I got an email saying it will arrive, I think next week, 00:28:24.529 --> 00:28:24.959 Jonny: awesome. 00:28:25.263 --> 00:28:28.243 Tom: I-- I won't be at home, so hopefully it will still arrive and 00:28:28.683 --> 00:28:31.013 I'll still, get access to it 'cause I'm really excited to check it out too. 00:28:31.433 --> 00:28:32.553 But, Yeah. 00:28:33.043 --> 00:28:38.803 I fondly remember the L-Little Printer era as well, and I have one personally 00:28:38.803 --> 00:28:46.013 myself, but I did work at a design agency that had one, and it was super fun for 00:28:46.013 --> 00:28:49.213 running, experiments and just, Yeah. 00:28:49.253 --> 00:28:53.543 all the stuff that Berg worked on was, very inspiring and 00:28:53.543 --> 00:28:55.123 exciting about what was possible. 00:28:55.594 --> 00:28:55.834 Jonny: Yeah. 00:28:56.783 --> 00:28:58.363 Tom: I think

that's, Yeah. 00:28:58.593 --> 00:29:02.863 So I really like the, callback to Dieter Rams, and I've been thinking… 00:29:03.213 --> 00:29:07.243 So I've been helping, a company hiring designers recently. 00:29:07.933 --> 00:29:11.143 so hired three designers with them and was, going through the 00:29:11.143 --> 00:29:12.643 process of hiring a head of design. 00:29:14.633 --> 00:29:20.213 I thought that would, I thought the, time that I had spent previously 00:29:20.213 --> 00:29:23.643 doing that would pretty naturally to what is happening right now. 00:29:23.643 --> 00:29:26.443 But it was a really interesting glimpse into the current landscape 00:29:26.443 --> 00:29:31.903 of how AI adds noise on both sides of the hiring process, and that's 00:29:32.004 --> 00:29:32.364 Jonny: Yeah. 00:29:32.703 --> 00:29:38.813 Tom: but more the sort of landscape of, of, trying to evaluate good 00:29:41.133 --> 00:29:45.743 also, companies being clear about what it actually is that they're… 00:29:46.583 --> 00:29:49.683 what is the role, the unique role that design can play at those companies. 00:29:51.583 --> 00:29:57.793 and, I think the sort of theme that I come back to a lot is, I tried 00:29:57.793 --> 00:30:01.943 all these approaches to almost over-engineer how to evaluate, designers. 00:30:02.683 --> 00:30:08.393 but I kept coming back to, just need a portfolio with really strong foundations, 00:30:08.783 --> 00:30:10.643 and you need something that is about 00:30:13.663 --> 00:30:16.143 How you're playing with this new technology and this sort of 00:30:16.143 --> 00:30:17.613 new material and this new era. 00:30:18.753 --> 00:30:23.883 don't know if that's, links to projects that you've worked on or, something 00:30:23.883 --> 00:30:27.493 about your mindset, curiosity, approach, how you bake that into your work. 00:30:27.773 --> 00:30:31.273 But the sort of core foundations and pushing the edge of what's possible right 00:30:31.273 --> 00:30:37.343 now, those feel like the two that I think are most important to really showcase 00:30:37.904 --> 00:30:39.314 Jonny: Yeah. 00:30:39.533 --> 00:30:42.033 Tom: to a similar language to what you're describing there of the sort 00:30:42.033 --> 00:30:47.303 of deep foundations of, care and consideration for what the product 00:30:47.303 --> 00:30:52.503 experience is, and then pushing the, future of what's, possible there. 00:30:52.533 --> 00:30:59.463 And like the twist of, LLMs were capable of two years ago, which is obviously 00:30:59.493 --> 00:31:05.283 quite different from today, but, there is something really, about product 00:31:05.283 --> 00:31:09.553 that was built based on quite limited technology but still holds up, even if 00:31:09.604 --> 00:31:09.944 Jonny: Yeah. 00:31:10.273 --> 00:31:11.943 Tom: released significantly later than that. 00:31:12.143 --> 00:31:13.063 So super cool. 00:31:13.544 --> 00:31:15.644 Jonny: I think I sort of saw-- We both got kids. 00:31:15.674 --> 00:31:21.094 It

feels like a photo of your child at a certain age, It's like nostalgic. 00:31:21.094 --> 00:31:24.604 Oh, I remember when they were, just learning to walk or whatever it is. 00:31:25.494 --> 00:31:27.274 maybe there's a parallel there, which is, 00:31:29.374 --> 00:31:35.614 the rose-tinted spectacles of, looking back and remembering a time, nostalgia. 00:31:36.623 --> 00:31:36.963 Tom: Yeah. 00:31:38.084 --> 00:31:38.434 Jonny: so yeah, 00:31:38.554 --> 00:31:42.204 I'm interested, Tom, actually at i-in-- on the-- 00:31:44.424 --> 00:31:48.904 on that side of as a designer, how you think about craft versus 00:31:49.819 --> 00:31:55.109 Being current and pushing the boundaries, it feels as a designer 00:31:55.109 --> 00:31:56.809 you can feel split in two by that. 00:31:56.809 --> 00:32:01.599 Like I'm meant to become an engineer now, but also, still be excellent at all 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:06.279 of the things that I was excellent at previously and not let anything slip. 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:09.989 I, I'm just wondering if there's anything-- 00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:15.309 Having hired designers recently and hired a lot of designers, 00:32:15.309 --> 00:32:17.129 way more than me, like w-- 00:32:19.199 --> 00:32:24.629 An-anything more that you would describe as a, strategy around that 00:32:24.629 --> 00:32:28.849 or like how to s-split your time, what to advocate for maybe at work? 00:32:30.143 --> 00:32:30.393 Tom: Yeah. 00:32:32.923 --> 00:32:35.993 I think, it's a really interesting time right now to a- answer that 00:32:35.993 --> 00:32:39.963 question because I think there's a bunch of intersecting attributes there. 00:32:40.633 --> 00:32:45.968 I think the sort of the baseline that I think about is, the title 00:32:45.968 --> 00:32:52.808 of designer or product designer or equivalent, varies so much between 00:32:52.808 --> 00:32:57.798 companies based on what the nature of that business is and what market is it 00:32:59.418 --> 00:33:01.568 the maturity of the team and the role. 00:33:01.778 --> 00:33:05.938 And by that how-- is it an early-stage startup? 00:33:05.938 --> 00:33:07.478 Is it a far later stage 00:33:07.569 --> 00:33:08.809 Jonny: Yeah. 00:33:09.248 --> 00:33:11.448 Tom: have a significant impact on the role design plays. 00:33:11.448 --> 00:33:17.088 So I think being able to a bit of a ability to triangulate what is the actual, 00:33:18.098 --> 00:33:23.188 leverage design is adding a company at a given stage, I think can help what 00:33:23.978 --> 00:33:26.198 the bias of an organization will be. 00:33:27.748 --> 00:33:31.878 and I say that because you mentioned that, becoming engineers and there has 00:33:31.958 --> 00:33:35.598 for a long time been designers becoming product managers as a theme as well. 00:33:36.638 --> 00:33:39.338 and I think the answer is all of those and nothing. 00:33:40.168 --> 00:33:45.128 depends on what is really gonna have the most impact in, a given organization 00:33:45.428 --> 00:33:47.858 and how does that organization operate. 00:33:48.109 --> 00:33:52.109 Jonny: Yeah. 00:33:52.238 --> 00:33:55.268 Tom: you want to put yourself in a position where you're going to be pushed 00:33:55.268 --> 00:33:59.748 in a direction that, that biases toward what that organization needs, which 00:33:59.748 --> 00:34:01.828 is ultimately what is driving value. 00:34:03.098 --> 00:34:05.238 but that obviously needs to align with what your growth 00:34:05.288 --> 00:34:07.508 ambitions are as an individual. 00:34:09.458 --> 00:34:10.598 so Yeah. 00:34:10.598 --> 00:34:12.408 I think that's broadly how I think about it. 00:34:12.408 --> 00:34:15.778 And, I remember you mentioned agencies there, and back in the day 00:34:16.388 --> 00:34:17.428 career in agencies as well. 00:34:17.918 --> 00:34:22.928 And, I th- I feel a nostalgia for not necessarily working in an agency, 00:34:22.928 --> 00:34:28.668 but I think there is something more craft-oriented of being in a 00:34:28.668 --> 00:34:32.488 setting where you're brought into a project because you're a designer or 00:34:32.488 --> 00:34:36.068 you're-- you play a, consistent role. 00:34:36.068 --> 00:34:38.848 It's just through different companies, different organizations. 00:34:39.208 --> 00:34:42.708 Whereas I think in a sort of in-- the in-house era where you're embedded 00:34:42.708 --> 00:34:46.118 with- within a company, I think it actually matters a bit less to 00:34:46.118 --> 00:34:47.938 the business what your craft is. 00:34:48.108 --> 00:34:50.728 It's more about how does that help move the needle for the business. 00:34:51.708 --> 00:34:55.078 and I think there's a, default assumption that a product designer 00:34:55.078 --> 00:34:59.288 is performing a similar role at any of those organizations. 00:34:59.288 --> 00:35:03.198 But I think in the in-house world, especially in this AI landscape, that 00:35:03.198 --> 00:35:07.428 is being pushed and distorted into ways that I think can be really exciting 00:35:07.428 --> 00:35:12.988 and liberating for lots of people, but, also unintentionally box people into the 00:35:12.988 --> 00:35:14.948 shape of a role that doesn't fit right 00:35:15.024 --> 00:35:16.294 Jonny: Yeah. 00:35:16.368 --> 00:35:17.628 Tom: there's a really right or wrong answer to that. 00:35:17.628 --> 00:35:21.598 I think it's, it helps to deliberate about what kind of shape you want to 00:35:21.944 --> 00:35:23.214 Jonny: Yeah. 00:35:23.258 --> 00:35:28.098 Tom: of your own biases as a designer and then for organizations that align well 00:35:28.098 --> 00:35:29.968 with that or, hiring managers that align 00:35:29.984 --> 00:35:31.734 Jonny: Yeah. 00:35:33.388 --> 00:35:34.478 Tom: broadly how I think about it. 00:35:36.074 --> 00:35:41.214 Jonny: I think if you read Twitter, there's this very loud, m-m-- almost 00:35:41.214 --> 00:35:45.984 definitely minority of designers who are sort of design engineer 00:35:45.984 --> 00:35:50.394 coded and,

f-finally-- And I'm probably one of them actually. 00:35:50.724 --> 00:35:56.514 it-- Finally, I'm getting to do all the things that I've long been frustrated 00:35:56.514 --> 00:36:04.074 with the design process being glossy and being slow and, imperfect, while it's been 00:36:04.074 --> 00:36:07.534 in a separate tool, in a separate source of truth and all of that kind of stuff. 00:36:08.394 --> 00:36:14.054 and that's why these, great big design ops teams have been built at, scaled companies 00:36:14.134 --> 00:36:19.514 around that translation layer between, your Figma components and your components 00:36:19.514 --> 00:36:21.064 in code and all of that kind of stuff. 00:36:21.954 --> 00:36:23.184 And now all of those people, 00:36:25.304 --> 00:36:28.984 say ten or twenty percent of designers are like: Great, now we 00:36:28.984 --> 00:36:33.464 get to just go into code, and we can leave everything else behind. 00:36:33.804 --> 00:36:37.944 And I'm-- Yeah, I, have written blog posts where I've said that, and I feel 00:36:37.944 --> 00:36:42.104 like that's where I've found myself naturally, and it's really easy to see 00:36:42.104 --> 00:36:44.794 confirmation bias when you, read that. 00:36:44.794 --> 00:36:48.774 And I'm sure as designers that are less comfortable in that world to feel 00:36:48.774 --> 00:36:53.114 panicky, that, suddenly I've got to, I've got to be really technical as well. 00:36:53.864 --> 00:36:57.304 And I wonder now, my thinking has evolved maybe slightly, 00:37:00.434 --> 00:37:03.314 around these, archetypes, and actually a design team can have 00:37:03.314 --> 00:37:06.804 different archetypes that all fit together nicely within one team. 00:37:07.814 --> 00:37:10.964 As has always been the case, probably, so this isn't an original thought 00:37:10.964 --> 00:37:14.564 necessarily, but we start to have designers that are a little bit more 00:37:14.564 --> 00:37:18.464 design engineering and work in the design ops space, and that starts 00:37:18.464 --> 00:37:23.714 to look more like building tools for other designers, and supporting 00:37:24.404 --> 00:37:26.894 code-based design tools on some level. 00:37:26.894 --> 00:37:31.504 So the other designers that aren't as interested in getting into the technical 00:37:31.504 --> 00:37:37.344 side can still be creative and solve actual problems, that customers need 00:37:38.464 --> 00:37:44.514 without too much of a sort of- relearning process to, to have to suddenly do 00:37:44.514 --> 00:37:45.954 it all in the terminal, for example. 00:37:46.714 --> 00:37:50.714 so I'm, excited about that because that will hopefully let everyone 00:37:50.714 --> 00:37:52.194 still be who they wanna be. 00:37:53.294 --> 00:37:55.494 But there is a real risk, I think, in the short term that, 00:37:57.854 --> 00:38:01.604 everyone sort of flocks to the next hotness or the next thing that is gonna 00:38:01.604 --> 00:38:04.784 disrupt all our jobs if we're not good at it and all of that kind of thing. 00:38:04.784 --> 00:38:09.454 And maybe in reality, nothing is ever as brilliant or terrible 00:38:09.454 --> 00:38:10.744 as everyone thinks it is. 00:38:10.994 --> 00:38:11.274 And, 00:38:11.808 --> 00:38:11.868 Tom: Yeah. 00:38:11.938 --> 00:38:12.098 Yeah. 00:38:13.278 --> 00:38:13.708 Yes. 00:38:14.468 --> 00:38:17.238 Yeah, I don't, Yeah. 00:38:17.238 --> 00:38:19.178 I think that's a really interesting observation. 00:38:19.178 --> 00:38:24.038 I think that design engineering in particular, I, think of 00:38:24.438 --> 00:38:25.638 as a, bit of a, spectrum. 00:38:25.638 --> 00:38:28.708 And I, think you're absolutely right that there's-- for lots of people, this 00:38:28.708 --> 00:38:35.013 has unlocked huge exciting gains in what designers are capable of doing, 00:38:35.013 --> 00:38:40.633 and I would- my- I started my career, did computer science at university and 00:38:40.823 --> 00:38:44.203 started out more technical and then transitioned away from that o- in time. 00:38:44.243 --> 00:38:46.563 Although now I'm-- I feel like in the last year or two I've been returning 00:38:46.563 --> 00:38:48.103 to that a lot, and it's very exciting. 00:38:49.393 --> 00:38:56.273 but I, think, I think it's important for designers to be able to, be comfortable 00:38:56.273 --> 00:39:01.253 enough, operating with the material of the medium that they're working in. 00:39:01.573 --> 00:39:04.223 But I don't necessarily think that needs to make every single 00:39:04.223 --> 00:39:06.823 designer a hardcore design engineer. 00:39:08.543 --> 00:39:14.763 but I d- I am with you on the idea that having this fictional abstraction of 00:39:15.173 --> 00:39:19.603 a Figma design system and then what is actually in code and then a whole team 00:39:19.603 --> 00:39:24.633 built around moving from one abstraction to another feels very inefficient 00:39:24.683 --> 00:39:27.963 and very unnecessary at this stage. 00:39:29.043 --> 00:39:32.603 but, but how we na-navigate that transition I think is, gonna 00:39:32.603 --> 00:39:33.983 be interesting to watch unfold. 00:39:35.174 --> 00:39:40.974 Jonny: Yeah, and closing that gap with software over with training everyone 00:39:40.974 --> 00:39:46.304 to be suddenly good in an IDE, and like everyone's now main design tool is Cursor. 00:39:46.304 --> 00:39:47.804 That doesn't feel realistic. 00:39:48.723 --> 00:39:49.093 Tom: Yeah. 00:39:49.604 --> 00:39:52.224 Jonny: but some subset might be, and they're helping to bring 00:39:52.224 --> 00:39:53.434 the rest of the t-- bring the 00:39:54.374 --> 00:39:56.004 process to the rest of the team a little bit more. 00:39:57.033 --> 00:39:57.353 Tom: Yeah. 00:39:58.053 --> 00:40:06.323 I, do think, topic of craft, I do, I've gone back and forth with design 00:40:06.523 --> 00:40:10.223 process and what kind of-- how much process is necessary or not. 00:40:10.313 --> 00:40:13.783 And I think more recently I've come to the conclusion that there are-- less

00:40:13.783 --> 00:40:15.833 about process and more about two, two 00:40:17.733 --> 00:40:18.283 of craft. 00:40:18.283 --> 00:40:19.103 being, 00:40:21.343 --> 00:40:22.893 and craft as polish. 00:40:24.063 --> 00:40:31.043 I think, to me is holding a high bar for the output of what ships 00:40:31.043 --> 00:40:33.353 to customers, like what makes it into that final product. 00:40:35.073 --> 00:40:38.663 but I think there's a bit of a danger of only viewing craft as that polish 00:40:38.913 --> 00:40:43.633 experience, a polish layer, and not focusing as much on craft as practice. 00:40:43.633 --> 00:40:47.833 And for me, practice is the-- it's like going to the gym. 00:40:48.583 --> 00:40:51.783 like getting the, rep- reps in, getting the practice in at doing the thing, 00:40:52.633 --> 00:40:56.163 it to people, getting feedback, and getting better and better at honing 00:40:56.163 --> 00:41:02.913 your ability to, make things and then recognize where, you have made, it's 00:41:02.913 --> 00:41:07.053 good or not, direction towards something that you're comfortable shipping. 00:41:07.983 --> 00:41:12.283 and so for me, looking at it through that lens, I think design or design 00:41:12.283 --> 00:41:17.073 engineers, you don't need to be a design engineer, but like getting some practice 00:41:17.073 --> 00:41:22.308 in of Playing with code, working with code just to get somewhat familiar and 00:41:22.308 --> 00:41:27.618 get slightly more comfortable in it is, is-- does feel important to me, even if 00:41:28.418 --> 00:41:32.678 not actually wanting to reach the stage where you're regularly shipping PRs. 00:41:34.728 --> 00:41:39.208 I also think it's helpful for us as a industry to, at large, to have 00:41:39.208 --> 00:41:43.108 more language around where is craft helping you develop your practice 00:41:43.108 --> 00:41:46.488 and where is it about, the end thing that is reaching customers. 00:41:46.488 --> 00:41:49.368 Because I think those are quite different modes and two quite 00:41:49.368 --> 00:41:53.448 different ways of evaluating what is, useful, what is valuable, 00:41:54.279 --> 00:41:54.799 Jonny: Yeah, yeah. 00:41:55.319 --> 00:41:55.579 Yeah. 00:41:56.039 --> 00:41:58.529 So craft as a descriptor of your craft. 00:41:58.529 --> 00:42:07.589 So craft as a, descriptor of a person or th-their ability versus craft as a 00:42:07.589 --> 00:42:10.229 descriptor of a object or like a, thing. 00:42:10.959 --> 00:42:14.759 it is crafted versus I am craft, I am crafting. 00:42:16.189 --> 00:42:16.599 maybe the 00:42:17.688 --> 00:42:18.008 Tom: Yeah. 00:42:18.688 --> 00:42:19.238 I guess so. 00:42:19.428 --> 00:42:24.788 that, that is, getting very, precise on the language around it. 00:42:24.788 --> 00:42:27.418 I don't-- That wasn't necessarily my intention with this. 00:42:27.418 --> 00:42:32.588 It was-- I think it was more just to open up the idea that I think there's 00:42:32.588 --> 00:42:36.468 such a focus right now, especially

going back to the recruiting, topic. 00:42:36.748 --> 00:42:41.198 So many teams are recruiting, designs with high craft, and I think the 00:42:41.198 --> 00:42:45.068 definition of what craft means in that context varies a lot, on an 00:42:45.068 --> 00:42:46.938 organization and what, what that means. 00:42:47.648 --> 00:42:50.848 and I do think it's important to hold a high bar for craft in terms of what ships 00:42:51.238 --> 00:42:56.478 to, customers or, product changes that are made, which I think is ultimately about, 00:42:56.989 --> 00:43:00.989 Jonny: Yeah. 00:43:02.098 --> 00:43:05.748 Tom: I think there's more stuff that probably could be reduced down or refined. 00:43:05.878 --> 00:43:08.528 and probably going back to your Dieter Rams principles, that's 00:43:08.528 --> 00:43:12.908 probably the, home for Dieter Rams' principles is in that craft as polish. 00:43:13.898 --> 00:43:15.898 but, but Yeah. 00:43:16.118 --> 00:43:20.478 I think you're never gonna get to that shape, or you're gonna put too much 00:43:20.478 --> 00:43:25.468 pressure on yourself to get to that shape without the practice, without, comfortable 00:43:25.558 --> 00:43:30.358 trying things, making stuff for the sake of experimentation and progress. 00:43:30.638 --> 00:43:33.588 I think, what I was describing with the logo instrument 00:43:33.588 --> 00:43:35.588 earlier, that is of that for 00:43:35.799 --> 00:43:36.799 Jonny: Yeah. 00:43:36.829 --> 00:43:36.899 Yeah. 00:43:36.899 --> 00:43:37.099 Yeah 00:43:37.368 --> 00:43:42.108 Tom: it's prob-probably not comfortable, publishing it or posting it in a, is 00:43:42.108 --> 00:43:46.478 a polished, logo that I feel, proud 00:43:49.908 --> 00:43:53.998 in terms of my craft practice, I think it's, helped me grow 00:43:54.004 --> 00:43:55.334 Jonny: Yeah. 00:43:56.028 --> 00:43:59.068 Tom: and, how it shifted the possibilities of, what I can make with them. 00:43:59.674 --> 00:44:00.044 Jonny: Yeah. 00:44:00.334 --> 00:44:08.404 I think that comes back to the most crafted things are the result of 00:44:08.584 --> 00:44:10.924 a craft practice come to fruition. 00:44:11.668 --> 00:44:11.968 Tom: Yeah. 00:44:13.024 --> 00:44:15.314 Jonny: Like that, that-- It feels like they're inseparable. 00:44:15.314 --> 00:44:19.614 Like you-- I don't think this is gatekeep-y to say something that 00:44:19.854 --> 00:44:26.284 feels good must have been created by someone that has a good craft practice 00:44:26.284 --> 00:44:29.414 maybe, or like the vast majority, 00:44:33.384 --> 00:44:33.754 I hope. 00:44:34.534 --> 00:44:35.524 Like that gives me hope. 00:44:35.634 --> 00:44:39.064 I suppose that gives me hope for all of us, that there is 00:44:39.113 --> 00:44:39.543 Tom: Yeah. 00:44:40.804 --> 00:44:44.384 Jonny: some arbitrage left for humans 00:44:45.024 --> 00:44:48.944 who care about stuff to be better than, machines for a while yet. 00:44:49.953 --> 00:44:50.533 Tom: Yeah. 00:44:50.683 --> 00:44:58.083 I think in the most or the least optimistic case, pessimistic case, 00:44:58.083 --> 00:45:00.633 I guess that makes it, for humans. 00:45:00.873 --> 00:45:08.823 I, think still the judgment of what makes it out the door, that even, 00:45:08.823 --> 00:45:12.983 if a human is not going through the process of creating the thing, it's, 00:45:13.823 --> 00:45:15.643 down to human judgment on what actually 00:45:15.944 --> 00:45:17.104 Jonny: Yeah. 00:45:17.653 --> 00:45:21.023 Tom: and you don't develop that judgment without going through 00:45:21.023 --> 00:45:21.993 the process of building your 00:45:22.024 --> 00:45:23.314 Jonny: Yeah. 00:45:23.463 --> 00:45:27.933 Tom: in the future, AI and humans together will help supercharge that 00:45:28.084 --> 00:45:29.324 Jonny: Yeah. 00:45:29.673 --> 00:45:33.483 Tom: but that's how I broadly think about it anyway. 00:45:35.294 --> 00:45:35.914 Jonny: Fascinating. 00:45:36.714 --> 00:45:40.454 I feel like that we're gonna be talking about this for as many 00:45:40.454 --> 00:45:43.164 episodes as we ultimately do. 00:45:45.194 --> 00:45:47.284 on some, on some-- in some form or another. 00:45:47.634 --> 00:45:51.164 It feels like the big meta theme of design and AI generally. 00:45:51.844 --> 00:45:53.944 so excited to keep learning about it. 00:45:54.904 --> 00:45:57.264 shall we wrap with tools we're excited about? 00:45:58.563 --> 00:45:58.803 Tom: Sure. 00:45:59.063 --> 00:45:59.333 Yeah. 00:45:59.463 --> 00:46:00.063 That sounds good. 00:46:01.253 --> 00:46:06.223 and, and, by the way, if, you're listening to this and get, and, sick 00:46:06.223 --> 00:46:08.043 of hearing the word craft, I don't know how many times we've mentioned 00:46:08.043 --> 00:46:09.483 that word in this episode so far. 00:46:10.533 --> 00:46:12.973 We might continue to talk about this as the sort of general topic, but, 00:46:13.733 --> 00:46:16.323 but it's, I don't think it will go quite as deep as this every time. 00:46:17.053 --> 00:46:22.023 in terms of tools, and to completely, contradict what I just said, 00:46:22.023 --> 00:46:26.093 the tools I'm curious to explore at the moment, one is Flora AI. 00:46:26.133 --> 00:46:27.713 I've been using it a bit recently. 00:46:28.313 --> 00:46:35.853 I run a design and AI meetup, or event in London, and, I've used Flora AI 00:46:35.853 --> 00:46:39.083 a bit to work on some of the visual assets for that, and I'm excited 00:46:39.083 --> 00:46:40.723 to, to dig a bit deeper into it. 00:46:40.723 --> 00:46:43.433 It's a very tool which 00:46:49.153 --> 00:46:52.823 reference images and prompts to get more-- to more consistently 00:46:52.823 --> 00:46:56.083 get good output from, AI. 00:46:56.903 --> 00:46:59.223 so it's been, to explore. 00:46:59.993 --> 00:47:07.473 I've-- my, visual emphasis there has been more towards quite visual outputs rather 00:47:07.473 --> 00:47:09.763 than the sort of shiny futuristic worlds. 00:47:09.763 --> 00:47:15.623 It's more the of pixels on a s- pixel art

era, which I don't know 00:47:15.703 --> 00:47:19.073 what that says about anything, but interesting to, to use a tool for it. 00:47:19.383 --> 00:47:22.003 The other thing is, Notion's, recent updates. 00:47:22.263 --> 00:47:27.443 I'm, curious to explore what's possible there with Notion agents and, sort 00:47:27.443 --> 00:47:31.213 of all the changes that were released last week, around that, because I think 00:47:31.213 --> 00:47:34.963 there's a lot of exciting things, and Notion is, as we were talking about 00:47:34.963 --> 00:47:36.883 earlier, Notion is a tool that we have, 00:47:39.443 --> 00:47:46.293 learned to, w- taking a slice, away and ex-exploring what's possible with 00:47:46.293 --> 00:47:52.083 local, markdown files and roll your own DIY knowledge management systems. 00:47:52.083 --> 00:47:57.743 But, but Notion keeps coming back as a, this vital infrastructure piece, and so 00:47:57.803 --> 00:48:02.953 I'm excited by what we might be able to do with plugging, capabilities in-into 00:48:02.953 --> 00:48:04.883 there and, what that might look like next. 00:48:04.883 --> 00:48:06.373 So yeah, those are two things I'm exploring. 00:48:06.403 --> 00:48:06.803 How about you, Jonny? 00:48:09.124 --> 00:48:13.994 Jonny: I am interested in-- This is a slightly different take 00:48:14.284 --> 00:48:20.284 on the question, but sovereign AI, is, hot, so hot right now. 00:48:21.254 --> 00:48:23.414 but what sovereign design tools do we have? 00:48:23.574 --> 00:48:28.594 By which I mean, what are the UK companies building design tools? 00:48:28.594 --> 00:48:30.004 And I found three so far. 00:48:30.384 --> 00:48:31.124 I'm sure there are more. 00:48:32.884 --> 00:48:37.684 o-one of whom is Dawn, and we both know the founder of Dawn, Brendan. 00:48:38.174 --> 00:48:44.004 A really smart guy, thinks about design more deeply than most people 00:48:44.004 --> 00:48:49.934 I know, and is building what feels like a really well-crafted product. 00:48:50.984 --> 00:48:54.294 I think you'll find it Dawn Labs, dawnlabs.com, 00:48:54.504 --> 00:48:55.124 possibly. 00:48:56.294 --> 00:49:01.404 we, could maybe put a link somewhere, but, that is shaping up to be really nice. 00:49:01.404 --> 00:49:02.494 There's a couple of others as well. 00:49:02.494 --> 00:49:09.864 Superhands, they're a team based in London and Edinburgh, building effectively like 00:49:10.204 --> 00:49:12.644 a sort of designer's pull request review. 00:49:13.454 --> 00:49:18.784 after the code is written, designer gets to play in a virtual machine with 00:49:19.004 --> 00:49:26.279 the branch and add visual tweaks and make sure that everything looks pucker. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:28.739 so really nice team again. 00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:34.069 And then Desen, who are a team that I think have moved from Canada to London, 00:49:34.499 --> 00:49:38.899 been invested in by, the investors that once invested in me, so I met 00:49:38.899 --> 00:49:42.339 them through the investor network and, excited about what they're doing as well. 00:49:42.339 --> 00:49:49.319 They basically pull in your code and, I think you are 00:49:49.319 --> 00:49:50.809 actually using your actual code. 00:49:50.849 --> 00:49:53.409 I'm not sure if it's your code or like a facsimile of your code, but 00:49:53.409 --> 00:49:56.719 you're, you're-- that you can then design using the real components in 00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:00.709 your code base, which is a kind of like the promise that a lot of these 00:50:00.709 --> 00:50:04.179 tools seem to be wanting to make, but Desen seem to be pretty far ahead. 00:50:04.179 --> 00:50:08.559 So playing with or excited to play with those three. 00:50:10.669 --> 00:50:14.559 yeah, and, I-- just the design tooling space is mad at the moment, so I'm 00:50:15.609 --> 00:50:16.989 sure there'll be loads more next week. 00:50:19.222 --> 00:50:19.662 Tom: Amazing. 00:50:20.392 --> 00:50:23.732 yeah, those three sound, all sound really interesting. 00:50:25.212 --> 00:50:31.582 and yeah, Brendan, specifically I know is, we live-- he lives very 00:50:31.582 --> 00:50:37.982 close by, a big fan of his work and, yeah, great to see, all the things 00:50:37.982 --> 00:50:38.922 that are happening in this space. 00:50:39.549 --> 00:50:44.859 Jonny: Yeah, London, AI and design is, really fun at the moment. 00:50:44.899 --> 00:50:45.929 Just lots going on. 00:50:48.299 --> 00:50:50.069 yeah, I-I'm London maxing. 00:50:50.069 --> 00:50:51.699 I'm doing so much London maxing. 00:50:53.483 --> 00:50:53.943 Tom: Amazing. 00:50:54.323 --> 00:50:55.733 us your, give us your tips. 00:50:56.743 --> 00:50:57.993 yeah, let's wrap up here. 00:50:58.143 --> 00:50:58.673 Thank you so much, Jonny. 00:50:59.033 --> 00:51:00.433 It's, it's great chatting with you. 00:51:01.433 --> 00:51:04.563 great recording this together and, yeah, let's wrap up there 00:51:04.593 --> 00:51:06.693 and expect another episode soon. 00:51:07.858 --> 00:51:08.408 Jonny: Thanks, everyone.