96. Trickster-Monster Complex Part Something - The Middle One의 전체 녹취록

scatological, they're very ridiculous. 73 00:04:32,673 --> 00:04:36,955 But I think, in my opinion, is back to that primordial stuff we were talking about. 74 00:04:36,955 --> 00:04:40,017 He's just the first guy figuring this out. 75 00:04:40,017 --> 00:04:41,337 And he's the hero in a way. 76 00:04:41,337 --> 00:04:43,552 He's re first people. 77 00:04:43,552 --> 00:04:48,864 And beings and entities that came across consciousness had to think about things. 78 00:04:48,864 --> 00:04:52,435 The first reflexive moment to think about what's actually going on here. 79 00:04:52,435 --> 00:04:58,237 So he was a s trendsetter in a way, but we it ties in, the fool does tie in with all these things. 80 00:04:58,237 --> 00:05:01,418 Uh and that's what we found in this podcast. 81 00:05:01,418 --> 00:05:04,669 And if he doesn't like it, he can lump it in my opinion. 82 00:05:04,670 --> 00:05:05,548 Lump it. 83 00:05:05,548 --> 00:05:09,446 He's lump, he's lump, he's lump, he's in my head. 84 00:05:09,446 --> 00:05:11,467 Exactly. 85 00:05:11,568 --> 00:05:19,152 But we have a coyote as fool trickster, but Bone only wants to look at Hermes, divine demigod messenger, and Loki as cunning schemster. 86 00:05:19,233 --> 00:05:20,673 But it's a big tent. 87 00:05:21,134 --> 00:05:29,299 It's a circus tent, actually, because yes, the clown comes into play with tricksters as well, and so does the figure of the shaman. 88 00:05:32,001 --> 00:05:36,634 Every time we do something today I don't know Thunder shows up. 89 00:05:36,634 --> 00:05:39,128 We got Yep. 90 00:05:39,128 --> 00:05:42,019 Which also links back to the Gil Gilligan Island mysteries. 91 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:47,542 But and yes, overlap on this Monster Lord tour is the only thing you can depend on. 92 00:05:47,542 --> 00:05:50,263 But boundaries don't seem to exist anywhere, actually. 93 00:05:50,263 --> 00:05:53,444 So I think trickers are doing a good job. 94 00:05:53,444 --> 00:05:53,864 You know? 95 00:05:53,864 --> 00:05:59,637 I mean if they're b boundary blurs, there doesn't seem to be many boundaries left in this world between anything. 96 00:05:59,637 --> 00:06:00,587 Yeah. 97 00:06:01,908 --> 00:06:04,309 But uh here's a related quote. 98 00:06:04,309 --> 00:06:06,856 I failed to retrieve in the moment because 99 00:06:06,856 --> 00:06:12,210 As things ended in the last podcast, there was turmoil, there was arguments, Bone had to leave. 100 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:14,571 We were starting to have all kinds of issues. 101 00:06:14,732 --> 00:06:24,498 So what ended up happening was I got into the final argument with Bone and I was trying to bring this quote up and I I couldn't in the moment, but I found it. 102 00:06:24,498 --> 00:06:28,441 Because he was fighting me with all this overlap and he was against it. 103 00:06:28,441 --> 00:06:32,444 And he was against the fool and he was against all this overlapping stuff. 104 00:06:32,444 --> 00:06:33,284 But this

is the quote. 105 00:06:33,284 --> 00:06:36,426 It came from Arnold Van Gnepp, who is an anthropologist. 106 00:06:36,578 --> 00:06:42,355 He says all that has been said about priests and magicians also applies to the chief and the king. 107 00:06:42,718 --> 00:06:44,226 And that's because 108 00:06:44,226 --> 00:06:47,106 That's the thing you were trying to come up with at the end of the last episode. 109 00:06:47,106 --> 00:06:58,176 Yeah, so this there's an ethnographer kind of saying we look through these things and there's a lot of similarities between the major you know, when we have uh Merlin and 110 00:06:58,176 --> 00:07:02,780 Arthur shows up, they they do actually have a lot more overlap than one might think. 111 00:07:02,780 --> 00:07:13,440 And everybody else is just the pawns, but the main figures that emerge in any tribe or any group tend to have these overlapping superpowers, if you will. 112 00:07:16,470 --> 00:07:19,955 We I I have no idea. 113 00:07:19,955 --> 00:07:21,627 And it wasn't by design really. 114 00:07:21,627 --> 00:07:22,734 It was just 'cause we're done. 115 00:07:22,734 --> 00:07:23,478 Well that's the thing. 116 00:07:23,478 --> 00:07:25,317 That's what we we just flow, man. 117 00:07:25,317 --> 00:07:26,332 We don't do it on purpose. 118 00:07:26,332 --> 00:07:26,845 We just go. 119 00:07:26,845 --> 00:07:27,502 Exactly. 120 00:07:27,502 --> 00:07:38,682 Um but for Bowen I would say he mentioned Odysseus and I don't think I made this I I I don't think I made this point, but he was a trickster and a shapeshifter and a hero. 121 00:07:38,682 --> 00:07:41,334 Um, you know, and he d yeah 122 00:07:41,334 --> 00:07:45,062 I'm afraid to ask this, but how is Odysseus himself a shapeshifter? 123 00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:50,466 Well, because it was actually had hope, but I think just two point but yeah. 124 00:07:50,466 --> 00:07:55,895 When when he gets when he gets home and he get made gets made to look like the old man. 125 00:07:55,895 --> 00:07:56,335 Right. 126 00:07:56,335 --> 00:07:58,466 Until he shoots the arrow through the axis. 127 00:07:58,466 --> 00:07:59,227 Wrecked. 128 00:07:59,227 --> 00:08:02,090 So and only his dog recognized him at that point. 129 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:03,853 Abel Argus for that one. 130 00:08:03,853 --> 00:08:11,101 But anyway he gets this he's also I think we talked about this once before, believed to be Hermes grandkid. 131 00:08:11,101 --> 00:08:14,865 So there's definitely a link directly to Odysseus and Hermes. 132 00:08:14,926 --> 00:08:15,789 Okay. 133 00:08:15,789 --> 00:08:20,723 So he had that uh demigod sort of aspect going on in him too. 134 00:08:20,723 --> 00:08:22,588 That's why he was so connected to the gods. 135 00:08:22,588 --> 00:08:23,466 I never knew 136 00:08:23,466 --> 00:08:31,006 I'm I'm just saying there's overlap everywhere and Bone is trying to get everything in a in a in a pigeonhole and and and well tricksters don't actually do that. 137 00:08:31,006 --> 00:08:32,468 They try to blur line. 138 00:08:32,468 --> 00:08:41,199 So the fact that he th thinks he's a trickster archetype and he's trying to get things in the categories is actually definitively against what the trickster generally does. 139 00:08:41,199 --> 00:08:42,100 Gotcha. 140 00:08:42,189 --> 00:08:54,777 One thing I do remember from Bone in the previous episode is uh he was talking about how everyone everyone in Odysseus's time was just kinda like bash and smash and fight, fight, 141 00:08:54,777 --> 00:08:55,657 fight. 142 00:08:55,698 --> 00:08:58,739 Odysseus was the one who started using his brain. 143 00:08:59,620 --> 00:09:03,414 You know, when he was talking about intelligence versus brute strength. 144 00:09:03,414 --> 00:09:06,306 No, I agreed with what he was saying for the most part. 145 00:09:06,306 --> 00:09:10,668 He was not agreeing with what I was saying, which is really offensive to me. 146 00:09:10,668 --> 00:09:13,390 And I never want to see now we'll be back down in Bowen. 147 00:09:13,390 --> 00:09:14,130 Until next time. 148 00:09:14,130 --> 00:09:15,781 Until next time we go down there. 149 00:09:15,781 --> 00:09:23,706 But here's the thing, even Bowen himself, he's somewhere between his own character, Jack Primus, the hero, and Spike, the trickster's one from uh Eternal Aftermath. 150 00:09:23,706 --> 00:09:27,408 He does his own and he plays the fool in every other video. 151 00:09:27,408 --> 00:09:30,389 So he's the hero, the fool, and the trickster as as well. 152 00:09:30,389 --> 00:09:30,589 Yeah. 153 00:09:30,589 --> 00:09:32,010 He's trying to 154 00:09:32,032 --> 00:09:34,712 Say that no no no no. 155 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:37,298 Yeah, there's a little overlap going on. 156 00:09:37,298 --> 00:09:41,182 trickster is uh devil's advocate is a trickster too, right? 157 00:09:41,203 --> 00:09:44,486 Always finds the other side kind of thing, no matter what 158 00:09:45,067 --> 00:09:47,347 and I do have a mood quote for tonight. 159 00:09:47,368 --> 00:09:48,798 This is from Warren Zevon. 160 00:09:48,798 --> 00:09:49,669 No. 161 00:09:49,669 --> 00:09:50,229 I'm Mr. 162 00:09:50,229 --> 00:09:51,989 Bad Example, Intruder in the Dirt. 163 00:09:51,989 --> 00:09:54,651 I like to have a good time and I don't care who gets hurt. 164 00:09:54,651 --> 00:09:55,231 I'm Mr. 165 00:09:55,231 --> 00:09:56,021 Bad Example. 166 00:09:56,021 --> 00:09:56,841 Take a look at me. 167 00:09:56,841 --> 00:09:59,872 I'll live to be a hundred and go down and in for me. 168 00:10:00,213 --> 00:10:03,306 Warren Zevon, an excitable boy, they all said. 169 00:10:03,306 --> 00:10:04,384 Ah, there you go. 170 00:10:04,384 --> 00:10:12,198 But intruder in the dirt comes into play because they tend to come up from the bottom of thresholds or the sides or the top of thresholds, and that's gonna be a component of the 171 00:10:12,198 --> 00:10:13,272 whole when

we get to 172 00:10:13,272 --> 00:10:14,673 Portal Guardians at some point. 173 00:10:14,673 --> 00:10:16,545 Hopefully we get to these things. 174 00:10:16,545 --> 00:10:22,891 But tonight's location, anywhere the trickster is needed, but particularly locales betwixt and between. 175 00:10:22,891 --> 00:10:28,397 But as usual, our quarry harkens back to the dawn of man, or at least consciousness itself. 176 00:10:28,397 --> 00:10:38,520 In endless myths, globally, we find origin myths wherein a second god or a brother appears, the hero typically rents sky, father from earth, mother, rather violently. 177 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:45,082 And the next character to arrive on the scene after the hard work is done is typically an asshole, a deadbeat brother, the dark twin, the trickster. 178 00:10:45,082 --> 00:10:45,382 Us. 179 00:10:45,382 --> 00:10:46,013 Hey. 180 00:10:46,013 --> 00:10:47,926 Yeah. 181 00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:50,664 s sorry to send you out there, Moss. 182 00:10:50,875 --> 00:10:52,827 Well it was an us file the last one. 183 00:10:52,827 --> 00:10:56,360 But tricksters also shapeshift, surprise emoji face. 184 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,545 Sometimes one of the first peoples or the creator gods wear two hats. 185 00:11:00,545 --> 00:11:10,465 Per author Keith Robinson, tricksters can also show up in the literature as quote trickster creators, subcreators, vanishing creators, the great spirit, cultural 186 00:11:10,465 --> 00:11:14,038 transformer trickster figures, or even devil figures. 187 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:18,352 I'm I'm pr pretty sure tricksters have ADHD. 188 00:11:19,635 --> 00:11:23,778 That's why they're constantly, you know, just flitting from thing to thing and always creating new 189 00:11:23,778 --> 00:11:25,128 think they're hypomanic. 190 00:11:25,128 --> 00:11:31,780 They're more than they're not fully manic, but there's a hypomania and energy that's always driving them. 191 00:11:32,241 --> 00:11:45,125 But SGF Brandon adds to that list: deceiver, thief, parasite, cannibal, inventor, creator, benefactor, magician, perpetrator of obscene acts. 192 00:11:45,245 --> 00:11:49,186 So that's added by author SGF Brandon. 193 00:11:49,226 --> 00:11:52,412 I think the tricksters are mad at us with the storm coming at us right now. 194 00:11:52,698 --> 00:11:58,060 we yeah, we're we're gonna we're gonna you know, as we dive into tricksters, this is what's gonna happen. 195 00:11:58,060 --> 00:12:03,822 But these trickers are those plot foilers, divine messengers, psychopomps, and are buffoons. 196 00:12:03,883 --> 00:12:06,024 They often represent the other. 197 00:12:06,024 --> 00:12:11,295 When the one splits to two, and this per the apanishads is also the advent of where fear begins. 198 00:12:11,295 --> 00:12:12,802 I think we've talked about that. 199 00:12:12,802 --> 00:12:17,925 Yeah, we got into like it's uh you know, that that that's part of the shape changing. 200 00:12:17,925 --> 00:12:26,206 You get to have two different personas or you actually some split in two, so the bisexuality thing where they actually like flip genders back and forth. 201 00:12:26,206 --> 00:12:32,170 There's role reversals, there's a blurring, there's there's a transgender component to the trickster phenomena. 202 00:12:32,170 --> 00:12:36,746 But for the appanas is just saying as soon as there was another, there was fear. 203 00:12:36,746 --> 00:12:38,044 That's one of the appanasads. 204 00:12:38,044 --> 00:12:44,419 As soon as you would I was like, wait a second, there's something that's not me and then all of a sudden what follows that is fear. 205 00:12:44,419 --> 00:12:45,179 Right. 206 00:12:45,179 --> 00:12:54,924 But trickers are also found betwixt and between everything from territories, rituals and rites, sacred and profane, chiefs and communitas, leadership and the line worker. 207 00:12:54,924 --> 00:13:05,698 And all of these things in one pack package kind of Jung captures this tension of opposites in the word an antidromia or the Devantavas in Vedic circles, which if uh you 208 00:13:05,698 --> 00:13:12,261 know reconciled becomes Divandivita, D V A N D V A T I T A. 209 00:13:12,321 --> 00:13:14,822 It's going beyond opposites. 210 00:13:15,062 --> 00:13:22,445 And some believe trickster elements or the presence of the trickster archetype on the more collective level seem oddly absent in the twenty-first century. 211 00:13:22,445 --> 00:13:24,898 I made that statement and 212 00:13:24,898 --> 00:13:28,101 Bone, if you recall, brought up Ryan Reynolds or something. 213 00:13:28,302 --> 00:13:30,725 He tried to deadpool me. 214 00:13:30,725 --> 00:13:31,326 Yeah. 215 00:13:31,326 --> 00:13:41,737 But even if we give him that one, which is a stretch, uh not a lot of proper tricksters milling about uh rising on a national level during such a time of kind of discord. 216 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:44,286 Well tricksters are in charge right now. 217 00:13:44,286 --> 00:13:45,697 No, and I I don't agree. 218 00:13:45,697 --> 00:13:49,710 And again, that's but when it gets to be more evil, I I you're you've stepped off the square. 219 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:50,808 Again, there's overlap. 220 00:13:50,808 --> 00:13:57,017 You have to have the because Trump has the the circus component and the clown component and the buffoon component. 221 00:13:57,017 --> 00:13:58,638 There's overlap again. 222 00:13:58,638 --> 00:14:03,066 But we talked about that square of trickster being amoral, not immoral. 223 00:14:03,066 --> 00:14:06,004 So I think he's he's stepped off into something. 224 00:14:06,004 --> 00:14:13,558 But again But even stepping off something, we see that overlap because he does have several 225 00:14:13,558 --> 00:14:15,720 of the trickster tropes. 226 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,024 But here's Antoine Ko Koenig on that note. 227 00:14:19,024 --> 00:14:28,133 I feel that the figure of the fool as it existed in

the Middle Ages and the Renaissance is lacking today and helping us face the crisis we are experiencing. 228 00:14:28,133 --> 00:14:38,124 Fun fact that author's name is Koenig, which means king auf Deutsch, so essentially this is a quote this king is missing his fool, which is very fitting. 229 00:14:38,124 --> 00:14:40,438 That's like Medicine Man Sam. 230 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:42,402 No medicine man Sam. 231 00:14:42,698 --> 00:14:43,314 from the area. 232 00:14:43,314 --> 00:14:44,270 From the area. 233 00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:44,510 Yeah, yeah. 234 00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:46,051 You know who I'm talking about. 235 00:14:46,831 --> 00:14:53,705 apparently he was online talking about how he he doesn't believe in the skin fucker anymore. 236 00:14:53,705 --> 00:14:54,576 Right. 237 00:14:54,576 --> 00:14:59,150 'Cause apparently they should be doing something about this right now. 238 00:14:59,150 --> 00:15:01,231 Yeah, so he's mad at them. 239 00:15:01,231 --> 00:15:02,712 He's mad at them. 240 00:15:03,853 --> 00:15:10,757 But they they police we've another thing we found is they police their own, which is odd. 241 00:15:10,837 --> 00:15:21,513 Sometimes the monster emerges to defend and attack the colonizers, but more times than not, we have found it police the people who believe in the cre in the creature and and the 242 00:15:21,513 --> 00:15:25,166 entity and that that they end are the ones terrorized by this thing. 243 00:15:25,166 --> 00:15:26,508 Instead of the 244 00:15:26,830 --> 00:15:32,926 I mean, in some ways the people who may be more deserving of some monster to show up at their door. 245 00:15:32,926 --> 00:15:33,488 Yeah. 246 00:15:33,488 --> 00:15:34,562 Exactly. 247 00:15:34,562 --> 00:15:37,238 There's some bad boys out there need a visit from Krampus. 248 00:15:37,238 --> 00:15:38,278 That's right. 249 00:15:38,419 --> 00:15:39,009 Mac L. 250 00:15:39,009 --> 00:15:48,087 Ricketts, who I appreciate his views on the subject, he also notes the suspicious absence of the trickster in modern culture, except Van Wilder, of course, back to Bones comment. 251 00:15:48,087 --> 00:15:50,719 But as for trickster origins and folklore, Sam D. 252 00:15:50,719 --> 00:15:51,710 Gill and Irene F. 253 00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:59,978 Sullivan place the origin of the trickster to Daniel Britton's eighteen ninety-six Myths of the New World, when Father Albert Lacombe referred to the Cree figure. 254 00:15:59,978 --> 00:16:02,408 I don't know how to say this whistlechok chok. 255 00:16:02,408 --> 00:16:06,698 It's just W I S A K K E T J A K. 256 00:16:06,698 --> 00:16:08,238 as meaning trickster. 257 00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:12,121 The Cree also named the Wedico or Wendigo as well. 258 00:16:12,141 --> 00:16:18,685 Per Brinton, that was the first use of the term trickster itself, but the concept is ridiculously older. 259 00:16:18,685 --> 00:16:27,229 For example, the same Keith Robinson who named some of those trickster types for us earlier, he found a proto-trickster hiding in the creation myth of the Huron, where a 260 00:16:27,229 --> 00:16:33,092 character in Breubuff's sixteen sixteen accounts plays a bad trick on someone. 261 00:16:33,092 --> 00:16:36,322 That from trickster archetype, tracing the trickster myths 262 00:16:36,322 --> 00:16:41,108 They're proto trickster roots, and we do put stuff in the show notes for those who care. 263 00:16:41,109 --> 00:16:47,077 The name is kind of arbitrary because the actual origin of the trickster is as slippery as the tricksters themselves. 264 00:16:47,077 --> 00:16:50,061 They seem to keep going back farther into time. 265 00:16:50,082 --> 00:16:51,784 Ancient recurring themes. 266 00:16:51,784 --> 00:16:53,422 Well ancient recurring yeah. 267 00:16:53,422 --> 00:17:00,257 I think it's just a branch of the uh fundamental consciousness from which we all spring. 268 00:17:00,384 --> 00:17:00,695 Right. 269 00:17:00,695 --> 00:17:03,093 And that's very young in you're getting young in us now. 270 00:17:03,093 --> 00:17:04,445 It's more than that. 271 00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:06,895 I think monsters are way more than that. 272 00:17:06,895 --> 00:17:07,722 And I wanna say 273 00:17:07,722 --> 00:17:09,354 saying the trickster specifically. 274 00:17:09,354 --> 00:17:10,225 Right. 275 00:17:10,225 --> 00:17:10,525 Right. 276 00:17:10,525 --> 00:17:13,142 Like it it's a mentality, it's a it's a way way of 277 00:17:13,142 --> 00:17:13,892 It's a way of life. 278 00:17:13,892 --> 00:17:16,724 You know, but tricksters, I'm with ya. 279 00:17:16,724 --> 00:17:17,384 I'm with ya. 280 00:17:17,384 --> 00:17:24,267 Tricksters are typically males, but female tricksters occasionally emerge from the mythos, but mostly this is a male phenomenon. 281 00:17:24,267 --> 00:17:30,049 As discussed somewhere back in the mausoleum, Joseph Campbell tied the trickster into the super proto shaman. 282 00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:31,090 Imagine that. 283 00:17:31,090 --> 00:17:35,271 So back to his monomyth premise, or maybe the monster of a thousand faces. 284 00:17:35,271 --> 00:17:36,792 Bone balked at that too, by the way. 285 00:17:36,792 --> 00:17:39,778 We already covered that, but here at ML. 286 00:17:39,778 --> 00:17:41,036 Disagrees with you every 287 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,163 But here at MLT we found the same thing from Raven to Nanoboto to Coyote and Beyond. 288 00:17:46,163 --> 00:17:57,041 When we discuss the Ottoman Empire, yes, there is a tie into the Kushtica, those Otter men stalking the Tlingit, especially those tribes in Alaska, this from esoterics. 289 00:17:57,141 --> 00:18:01,103 They are out to steal your s and this is again back to the Kushtica. 290 00:18:01,104 --> 00:18:05,627 They are out to steal your soul and to stop the reincarnation process of their victims. 291 00:18:05,627 --> 00:18:10,178 They also described as a mythical and maniacal trickster race. 292

00:18:10,178 --> 00:18:11,286 That from the fearsome aloud. 293 00:18:11,286 --> 00:18:12,671 Soul leaders. 294 00:18:12,938 --> 00:18:13,833 Exactly. 295 00:18:13,833 --> 00:18:15,419 you from even coming back around. 296 00:18:15,419 --> 00:18:16,544 Never mind kill you this time. 297 00:18:16,544 --> 00:18:18,160 They stop you from ever being again. 298 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:18,979 Correct. 299 00:18:18,979 --> 00:18:19,648 Ooh. 300 00:18:19,648 --> 00:18:20,622 Correct. 301 00:18:20,622 --> 00:18:21,143 Miss gnarly. 302 00:18:21,143 --> 00:18:23,488 Yeah, that was a great episode, those otter men. 303 00:18:23,488 --> 00:18:25,079 was a fun one, definitely. 304 00:18:25,079 --> 00:18:32,302 Same episode we found in a tribe in South America where the word otter itself was synonymous with the shaman or water shaman. 305 00:18:32,302 --> 00:18:40,735 These are endless examples of a shaman monster overlap as well, but also to bring up to speed, if you missed some of our other madness, I made a variation of this joke once 306 00:18:40,735 --> 00:18:44,107 before here on MLT to kind of capture the essence of this. 307 00:18:44,207 --> 00:18:45,643 Where did Godzilla come from? 308 00:18:45,643 --> 00:18:51,830 I wonder if it has anything to do with those Godzilla people over on that island with the Gadzuki shaman. 309 00:18:52,643 --> 00:18:53,785 And it turns out it does. 310 00:18:53,785 --> 00:18:54,717 They're all related. 311 00:18:54,717 --> 00:18:58,032 You got the shaman related to the monster, related to the tribe. 312 00:18:58,032 --> 00:18:59,784 It seems that way anyway. 313 00:18:59,842 --> 00:19:03,724 That's the whole uh conjuring something you can't control. 314 00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:08,628 Well, it's just the tie in of that that's the magic in that area and they create the monster. 315 00:19:08,628 --> 00:19:10,330 The monster is related to the shaman. 316 00:19:10,330 --> 00:19:12,041 The shaman is related to the trickster. 317 00:19:12,041 --> 00:19:17,266 It's all the same energies and and that's that's kind of what we've seen time and time again. 318 00:19:17,266 --> 00:19:23,351 Same things show up in fiction and nonfiction, folklore, mythology, anthropology, and ethnography. 319 00:19:23,351 --> 00:19:26,033 And our trickstery origin mythos, same idea. 320 00:19:26,033 --> 00:19:31,778 We just did a bit when we discussed the Kanaima, one of the darker shamanic legends you'll come across with 321 00:19:31,778 --> 00:19:39,182 The Putamuna tribe of Guyana of the Amazon and their dueling creator god Trickster, Makunema and Paimya. 322 00:19:39,562 --> 00:19:46,346 Both figures seem to carry, and this is we've done this already, but both figures seem to carry elements of shamanism trickster and the monster. 323 00:19:46,346 --> 00:19:54,350 Paema, P I A I Duhicki I A, who is known as a cave dwelling cannibal forest spirit. 324 00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:57,292 And I think, if I remember correctly, he

wasn't the worst one. 325 00:19:57,292 --> 00:19:58,973 So they were both bad. 326 00:19:58,973 --> 00:20:02,024 The chief and the traitor, they were both kind of dark. 327 00:20:02,348 --> 00:20:08,441 If you don't have a healthy trickster mythos, does this decrease the psychological stability in your tribe? 328 00:20:08,441 --> 00:20:09,715 It's just a thought. 329 00:20:09,715 --> 00:20:10,957 These tri go ahead. 330 00:20:10,957 --> 00:20:11,616 It it 331 00:20:11,616 --> 00:20:23,256 It's I mean on that angle, like, you know, the culturally you know, to keep a healthy tribe, as you're saying, that's like Young talking about doing your shadow work. 332 00:20:23,256 --> 00:20:28,920 Like the trickster's the shadow in a way, you know, it's it's kind of your dark side in a lot of ways. 333 00:20:28,921 --> 00:20:34,045 And we talked about how it's not inherently evil, and if you get too evil, it's not really trickster anymore. 334 00:20:34,526 --> 00:20:40,084 But it's still like, you know, it's it's going against the grain in a lot of ways, societally speaking. 335 00:20:40,084 --> 00:20:51,333 societally speaking, but if you don't have the tricksters, you don't have your artists and your your writers and you know, these these people who come up with new ways of doing 336 00:20:51,333 --> 00:21:00,854 things in a better way and you know, all all these things, like all these people who change the world, like Einstein was a trickster, you know what I mean? 337 00:21:01,774 --> 00:21:04,355 Well, you got to get to the back of the bus though, because you're getting ahead of yourself. 338 00:21:04,355 --> 00:21:06,236 But yes, exactly. 339 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:08,717 oh Absolutely no argument there. 340 00:21:08,737 --> 00:21:11,578 One author who went there is Robert Pelton. 341 00:21:11,648 --> 00:21:14,940 he's kind of got this Youngin analysis p piece to it. 342 00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:23,844 When cracking the owl mysteries, we found that, you know, it needs a seeker, you need a seeker, and somebody who is the analyst who's kinda and they're both kind of discussing 343 00:21:23,844 --> 00:21:28,896 what deciphering and cracking some of these dream codes and mystical experiences. 344 00:21:29,186 --> 00:21:38,299 And if I'm reading Pelton correctly, he's kind of hard to decipher, but brilliant book of his, but a similar which we'll get to, but a similar approach might work via the trickster 345 00:21:38,299 --> 00:21:41,750 on the collective, or in this case, specifically a tribal level. 346 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:50,993 He's not talking necessarily about diagnosis, prognosis, or psychosis, yet the traits may display a structural pattern, gives clues about the community in question. 347 00:21:50,993 --> 00:21:52,693 Just like what you were saying. 348 00:21:52,693 --> 00:21:55,690 Thanks for thanks for stealing my thunder. 349 00:21:55,690 --> 00:21:57,593 Stepping on your toes, Moz. 350 00:21:59,854 --> 00:22:06,797 As

soon as we get back and start recording, Thunder God's gotta, you know, rattle all day. 351 00:22:06,797 --> 00:22:07,557 All day. 352 00:22:07,557 --> 00:22:15,320 But Pelton does not find you know, listing trickster traits all that relevant, which is what I do in the next section, by the way. 353 00:22:15,741 --> 00:22:26,165 But when talking about a Nancy, the spider trickster of the Ashanti, he believes we should instead keep in mind here's Pelton quote how his structure works in relation to the other 354 00:22:26,165 --> 00:22:29,358 structures of Ashanti society and how it exists as a 355 00:22:29,358 --> 00:22:32,379 Peculiarly Ashanti discovery of significance. 356 00:22:32,379 --> 00:22:40,903 The pattern enables us to approach anansi with a certain question in mind, but these questions stimulate others that are aimed more specifically at Ashanti life. 357 00:22:40,903 --> 00:22:50,337 In looking at the trickster, then we must be ready to ask about animal characters and ritual transformations, the bipolarity of sacred reality, the function of jokes and 358 00:22:50,337 --> 00:22:57,890 shaping a culture, the mythicization of the human condition, the power of divination to find doors and seemingly blank walls. 359 00:22:58,072 --> 00:23:05,645 Yet the trickster patterns raises these issues to probe a culture's inner workings, not fill in its apparently empty spaces. 360 00:23:06,306 --> 00:23:11,708 So kind of like what you were saying, but he said it, you know, I think very, very nicely. 361 00:23:11,708 --> 00:23:15,350 But you said it first, so you get some credit because you said it before he did. 362 00:23:16,951 --> 00:23:20,842 And that, by the way, was from The Trickster in West Africa. 363 00:23:20,842 --> 00:23:25,154 A study of mythic irony and sacred delight will be in the show notes. 364 00:23:25,462 --> 00:23:34,407 Someone else who approached such notions from a different angle and a different continent, by the way, was anthropologist Ellen Basso, who spent time with the Calapo of the Amazon 365 00:23:34,407 --> 00:23:35,227 Basin. 366 00:23:35,227 --> 00:23:44,292 She discovered how they modeled their trickster after a kind of cool used car salesman type, a kind of a savvy, free spirited and fiendishly clever dude's dudets. 367 00:23:44,292 --> 00:23:53,697 Basso became impressed with the resulting cunning of the average Calapo as a result, and overall the more playful and crafty worldview and outlook they kind of developed as a 368 00:23:53,697 --> 00:23:55,168 potential result. 369 00:23:55,168 --> 00:23:58,059 On that note, her book is actually called In Favor of Deceit. 370 00:23:58,059 --> 00:24:01,018 Um there's my Ahoguano theory. 371 00:24:01,018 --> 00:24:04,913 I actually wrote this as an ahu guano theory and then found the Pelton quote. 372 00:24:04,913 --> 00:24:12,269 So Pelton was actually I added that because it was exactly kind of what I was thinking when I read that Kanaima in particular. 373 00:24:12,269 --> 00:24:12,982 I miss a bumper? 374 00:24:12,982 --> 00:24:14,900 Are we doing a jugwano already? 375 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:18,065 Yeah, well that was my ajaguano, but since Pel it isn't now. 376 00:24:18,065 --> 00:24:22,161 Pelton Pelton made it brought it into reality as not shit. 377 00:24:22,161 --> 00:24:23,773 'Cause someone smart said it. 378 00:24:23,773 --> 00:24:26,028 So we're just gonna keep it as just something. 379 00:24:26,582 --> 00:24:29,728 Yeah, sometimes the craziest thing we come up with is makes the most sense. 380 00:24:29,728 --> 00:24:30,768 the most sense ultimate. 381 00:24:30,768 --> 00:24:31,160 It's weird. 382 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,001 Yeah. 383 00:24:32,001 --> 00:24:37,346 But that's just a taste of some of the darker trickster aspects of how they overlap with shamanism. 384 00:24:37,346 --> 00:24:43,571 We're going to put the shaman and the monster and the trickster in a center fugue and dissect these bad boys and then stitch them back together. 385 00:24:43,712 --> 00:24:46,294 Throw the third switch, Jeremy. 386 00:24:46,318 --> 00:24:48,142 Not the third switch. 387 00:24:48,142 --> 00:24:49,347 What do we always say? 388 00:24:49,347 --> 00:24:51,092 Is that what we say? 389 00:24:52,888 --> 00:24:54,045 That sounded right to me. 390 00:24:54,045 --> 00:24:54,960 It felt natural. 391 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:55,715 Felt very natural. 392 00:24:55,715 --> 00:24:56,397 true. 393 00:24:56,397 --> 00:24:58,124 That's like what we used to do. 394 00:24:58,124 --> 00:25:00,007 We took like a five month hiatus, everybody. 395 00:25:00,007 --> 00:25:01,294 We're we're still warming back up. 396 00:25:01,294 --> 00:25:02,155 Warm back up. 397 00:25:02,155 --> 00:25:11,511 But here once again is deaf psychologist Carlin Young taking the more symbolic slant and when speaking of symbols and transcendence, he claims we find the trickster at the most 398 00:25:11,511 --> 00:25:13,882 archaic levels of the psyche. 399 00:25:13,963 --> 00:25:18,545 The very psychoid level at the bottom of the collective windedness. 400 00:25:18,746 --> 00:25:22,561 Well, the i the psychoid layer is actually the base below everything. 401 00:25:22,561 --> 00:25:24,950 It's like where everything is really connected. 402 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:30,690 It's like the Tao level where you're your actual essential existential self. 403 00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:38,763 Someone described it as if you're painting a canvas of all the things that are in life and ego and everything, it's actually the canvas itself is the cycle. 404 00:25:38,763 --> 00:25:39,635 very Taoist. 405 00:25:39,635 --> 00:25:40,136 Yeah. 406 00:25:40,136 --> 00:25:42,798 The Tao is the thing from which everything else springs. 407 00:25:42,798 --> 00:25:43,379 There you go. 408 00:25:43,379 --> 00:25:44,059 Very good. 409 00:25:44,059 --> 00:25:45,978 D the Tao Pooh. 410 00:25:45,978 --> 00:25:48,583 But that was

from Carl Youngman and his symbols. 411 00:25:48,583 --> 00:25:56,538 To young trickster captures humanity at a crossroads or twilight consciousness, he calls it, from those beginnings of ape moving to man moments. 412 00:25:56,538 --> 00:25:59,832 Uh so back at the edge of nowhere, I would say. 413 00:25:59,873 --> 00:26:01,434 But here's a quick roll. 414 00:26:02,616 --> 00:26:04,017 That's where we're from. 415 00:26:04,017 --> 00:26:09,998 But and and we started that on the edge of nowhere in your old place staring out into the res basically. 416 00:26:09,998 --> 00:26:11,318 don't know where it came from, yeah. 417 00:26:11,407 --> 00:26:13,589 That's how we got that, I think. 418 00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:22,471 But here's a quick roll call of some of the key trickster figures, not even close to an exhaustive list, which you can't do anymore on the Monster Lord tour unless you pick 419 00:26:22,471 --> 00:26:27,348 increasingly unlikely subject matters, which is why we're doing man eating crickets next week week, you know? 420 00:26:27,348 --> 00:26:29,049 No I know. 421 00:26:32,098 --> 00:26:35,616 But this is why I do frog monsters, not werewolves, right? 422 00:26:35,616 --> 00:26:40,055 I mean if owls took six six episodes, could you imagine what vampires? 423 00:26:40,055 --> 00:26:41,216 Could you even like 424 00:26:41,216 --> 00:26:43,411 The turtle episode is awesome. 425 00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:45,359 In the trees. 426 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,532 Yeah, we we do some different shit around here. 427 00:26:47,532 --> 00:26:54,135 Right, but if I actually went and did like snake monsters or vampires or werewolves, it would be like seventy nine episodes. 428 00:26:54,135 --> 00:26:55,822 It would have to be a season. 429 00:26:55,822 --> 00:26:56,307 Yeah. 430 00:26:56,307 --> 00:26:58,350 It would be like a whole year of werewolf. 431 00:26:58,350 --> 00:26:59,530 Exactly. 432 00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:06,072 But going against the Pelton grain, I'm running down the trickster highlight list to show you your listeners of the global similarities. 433 00:27:06,072 --> 00:27:07,053 I'm gonna be brief. 434 00:27:07,053 --> 00:27:10,503 I think I'm gonna take a page from Pelton and try to get through this a little quicker. 435 00:27:10,503 --> 00:27:12,514 We're gonna start with Hermes. 436 00:27:12,514 --> 00:27:20,570 Hermes the fleet footed messenger of the Greek gods, and also known as Mercury to the Romans, where he's more feather footed and helmeted, selling flowers, I think. 437 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:26,616 The phallus is one of his symbols, and he carries a caduceus and twined serpent kind of staff thing going on. 438 00:27:26,616 --> 00:27:32,009 He's the god of language, thieves, of wealth, trade, travel, and revelations. 439 00:27:32,129 --> 00:27:35,791 Hermes is o is also where you get the word hermeneutics. 440 00:27:35,791 --> 00:27:37,392 I think that's where it comes from. 441 00:27:37,392 --> 00:27:40,533 Or maybe that's just my creative interpretation, you know. 442 00:27:41,194 --> 00:27:41,795 Sealed. 443 00:27:41,795 --> 00:27:43,596 Hermetically sealed, yeah. 444 00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:48,364 And that comes from uh Hermes Trismogistus Morse directly, I think. 445 00:27:48,364 --> 00:27:49,963 What what did you just say? 446 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,231 Hermes Trismegistus. 447 00:27:53,491 --> 00:28:01,654 Yeah, he's the the he's the guy the emerald the emerald tablet and the heart of Esoteria and the cult. 448 00:28:01,654 --> 00:28:04,255 One of the biggest figures is Hermes Trismegistus. 449 00:28:04,255 --> 00:28:06,996 We've talked about Hermes before, I'm sure. 450 00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:10,057 And we will certainly on this podcast at some point. 451 00:28:10,057 --> 00:28:11,854 Um 452 00:28:11,854 --> 00:28:19,852 When we see that little stack of rocks along hiking trails and crossroads, those are called cairns, and at least one of the origins behind these piles is they represent a 453 00:28:19,852 --> 00:28:23,158 tribute left by travelers to Hermes or Hecate. 454 00:28:23,432 --> 00:28:28,896 Cairn spelled C A I R N case you need to look that up. 455 00:28:28,896 --> 00:28:34,450 That's how you get that's how you survive in the desert is you find those cairns. 456 00:28:34,450 --> 00:28:35,355 Little rock 457 00:28:35,355 --> 00:28:38,236 And that's a and that's your path out of there. 458 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:40,237 So that's help for the travelers. 459 00:28:40,577 --> 00:28:49,374 Trickers are often the patrons or nemesis of travelers, depending on if you've left an offering, shown respect, if they don't like you, if they take in their meds, that kind of 460 00:28:49,374 --> 00:28:49,983 thing. 461 00:28:49,983 --> 00:28:55,225 But they're even associated sometimes with building the roads themselves or where the road meets the crossroads. 462 00:28:55,225 --> 00:28:56,936 Again, that Hecate overlap. 463 00:28:56,936 --> 00:28:58,477 We'll talk about her at some point. 464 00:28:58,477 --> 00:29:00,338 It's some certainly coming soon. 465 00:29:00,338 --> 00:29:00,988 yeah. 466 00:29:00,988 --> 00:29:04,290 But heroes then clear those roads of monsters. 467 00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:11,156 Sidebar note, NASA's project Mercury was never designed to go to Mercury and the Apollo missions, named after the sun god, went to the moon. 468 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:14,094 So finally with Artemis missions, uh they got it right finally. 469 00:29:14,094 --> 00:29:16,031 Well the sun is what lights the moon. 470 00:29:16,706 --> 00:29:21,411 Well, I mean, you know, you they still need to slip a myth book, I think, over at Cape Canarbal. 471 00:29:21,411 --> 00:29:22,126 That's just my opinion. 472 00:29:22,126 --> 00:29:22,812 There you go. 473 00:29:22,812 --> 00:29:24,433 But back to the Roman 474 00:29:24,462 --> 00:29:24,783 Artemis. 475 00:29:24,783 --> 00:29:26,069 Artemis is a hunter, right?

476 00:29:26,069 --> 00:29:27,476 Isn't that the last mission? 477 00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:28,010 I'm sorry. 478 00:29:28,010 --> 00:29:31,371 And she is the goddess of the moon, so they got it right. 479 00:29:32,312 --> 00:29:32,972 They did. 480 00:29:32,972 --> 00:29:33,902 And that's what I'm saying. 481 00:29:33,902 --> 00:29:36,353 At least it comes around a little bit here. 482 00:29:36,754 --> 00:29:41,756 In Man and His Symbols, Carl Jung explains the significance of the bird in flight. 483 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:48,379 Quote, Hermes recovered attributes of the bird life to add to his cathanic nature as serpent. 484 00:29:48,379 --> 00:29:54,461 His staff acquired wings above the serpent, becoming the caduces or wingstaff of Mercury. 485 00:29:54,461 --> 00:29:57,152 And the god himself became the flying man. 486 00:29:57,432 --> 00:29:59,644 winged and hat and sandals. 487 00:29:59,644 --> 00:30:08,911 Here we see his full power of transcendence, whereby the lower transcendences from the underworld and the snake consciousness passing through the medium of earthly reality 488 00:30:08,911 --> 00:30:13,894 finally attains transcendence to superhuman or transpersonal reality. 489 00:30:15,726 --> 00:30:22,220 It's like using your whole brain, connecting the lizard brain to the plant brain and everything in between. 490 00:30:22,220 --> 00:30:23,461 Yeah, that's kind of what he's talking about. 491 00:30:23,461 --> 00:30:33,075 And and the other thing we talked about last time, not just that part of it, but the other pieces we talked about how he thinks the trickster is on his way to somewhere and that 492 00:30:33,075 --> 00:30:37,226 basically it does evolve and that's why we get this whole piece. 493 00:30:37,226 --> 00:30:38,697 But I I don't believe that. 494 00:30:38,697 --> 00:30:40,488 Bowen and I were in agreement on that. 495 00:30:40,488 --> 00:30:49,692 I think that uh the trickster you know, if it becomes too healing level or too moral or too this or too that is it's moved beyond trickster. 496 00:30:49,692 --> 00:30:51,236 You can't call it that anymore. 497 00:30:51,630 --> 00:30:53,852 Trickster's like one kind of thing. 498 00:30:55,694 --> 00:31:00,515 Hermes has an Egyptian counterpart, the Ibysheaded Toth, who we will get to. 499 00:31:00,515 --> 00:31:08,898 But here's also the Latin counterpart, uh Mercurius, who also is described as a prankster trickster type associated with alchemy. 500 00:31:08,898 --> 00:31:18,970 But Hermes in Greece and Toth, Egyptian, they were kind of pen pals or something, but eventually, kind of through syncretism, they cut they became kind of they they're 501 00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:24,814 basically in charge of the same things, or at least there's a lot of overlap between Toth, the Ibyscad of God, and 502 00:31:24,814 --> 00:31:27,211 Egyptian hieroglyphs and Hermes. 503 00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:33,068 Well it's just they're all just retellings of a story that's been around for literally forever. 504 00:31:33,068 --> 00:31:35,506 Yeah, whether they both go back to freeze. 505 00:31:35,506 --> 00:31:39,810 A lot of it comes back to Sum Sumer and and Babylon and and 506 00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:43,787 It and it goes back to that for us because that's the earliest version that we have found. 507 00:31:43,787 --> 00:31:44,027 Yeah. 508 00:31:44,027 --> 00:31:45,514 But they got it from somewhere too. 509 00:31:45,514 --> 00:31:46,556 Exactly. 510 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:47,858 Exactly. 511 00:31:47,939 --> 00:31:53,340 But the merger and Toth and Hermes, you know, the is history's kind of first Bradgelina, in my opinion. 512 00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:57,432 Uh but you know, but Young really Go ahead. 513 00:31:57,432 --> 00:31:58,706 That's an old reference. 514 00:31:58,706 --> 00:31:59,916 I barely get that reference. 515 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:00,890 No, wait wait. 516 00:32:00,890 --> 00:32:01,532 I'm done. 517 00:32:01,532 --> 00:32:05,366 I'm um just sub 518 00:32:05,536 --> 00:32:08,750 No, like who I don't know if they do that anymore. 519 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,563 Do they do couple names like that anymore? 520 00:32:10,563 --> 00:32:11,820 I'm not sure. 521 00:32:11,820 --> 00:32:13,747 I don't yeah, I think they did it to death. 522 00:32:13,747 --> 00:32:14,680 Nobody wants it anymore. 523 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,715 But now Young realizes, you know, he he kinda rags on the trickster as I said. 524 00:32:18,715 --> 00:32:21,038 He calls them barely above animal level. 525 00:32:21,038 --> 00:32:27,225 But again, he kind of believes the trickster is on the spectrum, moving from fool to trickster to savior. 526 00:32:27,225 --> 00:32:31,720 Hermes is a good example as Young captures t you know this quote. 527 00:32:32,086 --> 00:32:40,403 I just wanna note I'm drinking mead out of a wooden chalice with a fairy stone hanging from the string that holds on the cork. 528 00:32:40,403 --> 00:32:42,767 And that's real cork too, but a fairy stone. 529 00:32:42,767 --> 00:32:44,169 I'm drinking mead with a fairy stone. 530 00:32:44,169 --> 00:32:44,330 know. 531 00:32:44,330 --> 00:32:47,126 We a b we got Coyote, we got Axis Mundy. 532 00:32:47,126 --> 00:32:49,963 Came themed for your your trickster. 533 00:32:50,348 --> 00:32:51,999 You're ready, I'm not. 534 00:32:52,019 --> 00:32:54,480 Now Young really rags on tricksters, as I said. 535 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,862 He kind of calls them barely above animal level. 536 00:32:56,862 --> 00:33:02,225 But again, he believes the trickster is on the spectrum, kind of moving from the fool to trickster to savior. 537 00:33:02,225 --> 00:33:06,057 But Hermes is a good example because Young kind of captures it in a quote. 538 00:33:06,057 --> 00:33:12,691 He goes from bringing Zeus coffee to crossing guard at the library to underworld psychopomp. 539 00:33:12,691 --> 00:33:18,484 And then through syncretism, you know, he ends

up being kind of like Toth, who is the library in charge of hieroglyphics. 540 00:33:18,484 --> 00:33:19,128 So 541 00:33:19,128 --> 00:33:27,213 There is this movement away and this is where Bone doesn't want to deal with any of the beginnings of the of the trickster mythos. 542 00:33:27,213 --> 00:33:32,872 He wants the end where they're exalted as gods and he he's a he's he's into that. 543 00:33:33,226 --> 00:33:35,193 Yeah, but we all have to start somewhere, right? 544 00:33:35,193 --> 00:33:37,977 oh 545 00:33:37,977 --> 00:33:39,038 It's a big tent. 546 00:33:39,038 --> 00:33:46,507 As long as you are not immoral but amoral and whether in some ways the intellect has nothing to do with it. 547 00:33:46,507 --> 00:33:49,950 You can be a goofball or you can be a psychopump. 548 00:33:50,031 --> 00:33:56,918 You can still fit in the trickster mode if you have the right intentionality from a moral perspective. 549 00:33:56,918 --> 00:34:04,981 Yeah, ph philosophically that is a very interesting distinction to be making amoral as opposed to immoral. 550 00:34:04,981 --> 00:34:06,553 Right. 551 00:34:06,553 --> 00:34:11,985 I I as just on my philosopher side, I could go on about that forever. 552 00:34:12,305 --> 00:34:14,045 If I really start digging into it. 553 00:34:14,045 --> 00:34:15,734 that's where I think Bone and I agreed. 554 00:34:15,734 --> 00:34:18,512 You you're not a trickster anymore when you step off that square. 555 00:34:18,512 --> 00:34:20,425 Just a healer is not a trickster. 556 00:34:20,425 --> 00:34:24,888 But someone has a little bit of an edge and doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and is in the moment. 557 00:34:24,888 --> 00:34:29,612 Literally just seeing what's happening, being like, that that piques my curiosity. 558 00:34:29,612 --> 00:34:38,310 Let's see what happens if I do that or if I don't do that, or you know, if I let that person fall, or if I save them, or if I hit that button, or I don't hit that button. 559 00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:38,951 Right. 560 00:34:38,951 --> 00:34:39,771 Yeah. 561 00:34:40,993 --> 00:34:41,543 Yeah. 562 00:34:41,543 --> 00:34:43,715 It's always just in the moment. 563 00:34:43,715 --> 00:34:45,867 There is no actual moral code. 564 00:34:45,867 --> 00:34:49,460 The only code is to chase your curiosity. 565 00:34:49,460 --> 00:34:51,542 I it at this point it's kind of 566 00:34:51,542 --> 00:34:56,396 coming into me like the trickster is just the ultimate it's the curiosity that killed the cat. 567 00:34:56,396 --> 00:34:59,758 Yeah, in a lot of ways You know it's I think there's a something to that. 568 00:34:59,758 --> 00:35:01,669 The root of Yeah. 569 00:35:01,669 --> 00:35:09,104 They have to poke the bear, but the bear may tear them apart, you know, or may tear the village apart and there's consequence. 570 00:35:09,104 --> 00:35:10,991 you really shouldn't open that door. 571 00:35:10,991 --> 00:35:11,321 Yeah. 572 00:35:11,321

--> 00:35:12,956 But you still open that door. 573 00:35:12,956 --> 00:35:17,682 then we find out what's behind the door and that can actually be what ultimately saves it yeah. 574 00:35:17,682 --> 00:35:19,126 The bear, the town. 575 00:35:19,126 --> 00:35:22,337 It's gonna have a consequence on your life either way. 576 00:35:22,337 --> 00:35:22,788 Right. 577 00:35:22,788 --> 00:35:28,620 The whole thing is is that's why you open you wanna see what's gonna happen. 578 00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:35,043 Like that's the only reason you did you didn't do it because it's right or wrong in any way related to those concepts. 579 00:35:35,043 --> 00:35:37,394 It's literally just because you wanna see what happens. 580 00:35:37,394 --> 00:35:38,234 Right. 581 00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:39,016 I get it. 582 00:35:39,016 --> 00:35:39,534 And I get it. 583 00:35:39,534 --> 00:35:41,142 And they're not thinking much beyond that. 584 00:35:41,142 --> 00:35:41,684 That's true. 585 00:35:41,684 --> 00:35:43,160 That's the whole thought process. 586 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,756 Like, I wonder what'll happen if I do this. 587 00:35:46,742 --> 00:35:57,142 Next up, and this is the one the persona you took last time, coyote uh aforementioned Native American trickster often depicted as anthropomorphic or even therianthropic part 588 00:35:57,142 --> 00:36:00,955 man part coyote or coyote as they are called in some packs. 589 00:36:00,955 --> 00:36:09,533 Coyote is a widespread trickster figure enveloping a great many tribal mythos in the southwest, often described somewhere between malevolent and sacred or comical to 590 00:36:09,533 --> 00:36:12,610 schatological, but always unapologetically trickster. 591 00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:23,119 Well, if you want to be lore accurate, the the animal you see running around in the desert would be a coyote or a coyote. 592 00:36:24,041 --> 00:36:31,967 When you say coyote, that's capital C God, trickster god that you're talking about. 593 00:36:32,528 --> 00:36:34,760 But the animal would be a coyote. 594 00:36:35,330 --> 00:36:35,770 go. 595 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:36,043 Yeah. 596 00:36:36,043 --> 00:36:37,038 I don't like it. 597 00:36:37,038 --> 00:36:38,956 Coyote is the capital. 598 00:36:38,956 --> 00:36:40,176 You taught me something today. 599 00:36:40,176 --> 00:36:41,687 I appreciate that. 600 00:36:43,668 --> 00:36:49,410 But I even came across uh one of the old Native American coyote tales where Orphe it's kinda Orpheus. 601 00:36:49,410 --> 00:36:58,694 He he's it's I don't know this is another syncretism moment or or I'm not sure, but basically it's the same thing, a coyote going for his lover in the underworld and last 602 00:36:58,694 --> 00:37:01,555 minute, you know, loses or it's kind of the same thing. 603 00:37:01,555 --> 00:37:06,017 But sometimes a coyote's clearly the hero, sometimes he's clearly the fool. 604 00:37:06,017 --> 00:37:08,824 He's definitely kind of ranging all over the 605 00:37:08,824 --> 00:37:12,428 He's got great stories though, 'cause he's always seeking his curiosity. 606 00:37:12,428 --> 00:37:12,898 Yep. 607 00:37:12,898 --> 00:37:18,121 But the Aztec code is more full blown psychopomp, helping souls navigate to the underworld. 608 00:37:18,121 --> 00:37:22,843 Like Anubis is kind of the counterpart for that, if you want some more overlap. 609 00:37:22,843 --> 00:37:29,006 But they end up being psychopomps, messengers, language bringers, firebringers, boundary crossers, assholes. 610 00:37:29,006 --> 00:37:30,027 Alex Bone. 611 00:37:30,027 --> 00:37:31,298 Same thing. 612 00:37:31,298 --> 00:37:37,258 uh But as for guide to the underworld 613 00:37:37,258 --> 00:37:40,015 Oh, if there was anyone but Bone I'd have to edit it so we didn't get sued. 614 00:37:40,015 --> 00:37:41,317 Yeah, that's true. 615 00:37:41,598 --> 00:37:44,130 But I heard one young Ian this guy Stephen T. 616 00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:51,284 Richards of the Richards is him and his wife describe the connection as being 'cause the psychopom and the trickster part gets me too. 617 00:37:51,284 --> 00:37:57,267 And they describe it as uh the psychopomp is simply the trickster turned down a notch. 618 00:37:57,447 --> 00:38:05,292 And we'll get to the Richards's at some point, but I think it's more a trickster with a dash of evil becomes the devil, but a trickster with a dash of divine becomes a 619 00:38:05,292 --> 00:38:05,952 psychopomp. 620 00:38:05,952 --> 00:38:07,533 I think that's the way I look at it. 621 00:38:07,533 --> 00:38:08,093 Okay. 622 00:38:08,093 --> 00:38:09,708 But trickster's just trickster. 623 00:38:09,708 --> 00:38:13,483 You know, again, too much of anything we're stepping off that square. 624 00:38:13,483 --> 00:38:16,628 But many tricks are associated with sex and oversized phalluses. 625 00:38:16,628 --> 00:38:21,438 Hermes we talked about, leg ba from Africa, coyote from that South America. 626 00:38:21,438 --> 00:38:26,684 Coco Pelli is a you you mentioned Coco Pelli last time and uh he he's a god of fertility. 627 00:38:26,684 --> 00:38:27,085 Correct. 628 00:38:27,085 --> 00:38:30,168 I laugh every time I see someone buy their little kid a Coco Pelli shirt. 629 00:38:30,168 --> 00:38:30,483 Yeah. 630 00:38:30,483 --> 00:38:33,231 It's like do you know what you're putting on that giant grade? 631 00:38:33,752 --> 00:38:35,445 That's a sex god, right? 632 00:38:35,445 --> 00:38:36,348 right. 633 00:38:36,348 --> 00:38:38,934 And he is a trickster and he's playing the flute and he's tricking 634 00:38:38,934 --> 00:38:40,958 That's how he's getting on little kids like that, you know? 635 00:38:40,958 --> 00:38:42,616 It's and he's laughing the whole time. 636 00:38:42,616 --> 00:38:44,480 Laughing a little time. 637 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,318 And Coyote, there's one story where he uncoils his penis in a swimming hole. 638 00:38:48,318 --> 00:38:51,785 she's Like

a detachable penis kind of thing to get uh women pregnant. 639 00:38:51,785 --> 00:38:54,410 So Ishu, a trickster in West Africa 640 00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:57,164 that why y is that why you made me coyote last week? 641 00:38:58,271 --> 00:39:04,118 But Ishu is a trickster in West Africa, even has you know people using his penis as a bridge. 642 00:39:04,118 --> 00:39:07,662 So the penis theme comes up a lot in trickster lore. 643 00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:11,510 I guess you could give him a Viagra if a tall ship needs to come through and 644 00:39:12,052 --> 00:39:19,146 There's a mythical creature in Japan who has a giant scrotum that he can use as his own boat. 645 00:39:20,822 --> 00:39:21,643 Can't remember what those are called. 646 00:39:21,643 --> 00:39:22,244 I don't remember. 647 00:39:22,244 --> 00:39:23,996 I got those in in a folder somewhere. 648 00:39:23,996 --> 00:39:26,550 I'm gonna do a I'm hoping to do an episode about them so 649 00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:27,031 you go. 650 00:39:27,031 --> 00:39:28,411 There are Japanese tricksters. 651 00:39:28,411 --> 00:39:29,953 We'll we'll get to those. 652 00:39:30,124 --> 00:39:38,171 there's a Yurik trickster, Wopakamu, W O H P E K U E U, could get women pregnant with just a stare. 653 00:39:38,171 --> 00:39:42,946 Uh Gurchiv, it was said, could just stare at women and make them orgasm. 654 00:39:42,946 --> 00:39:43,786 So 655 00:39:43,884 --> 00:39:46,098 I like that trick way better than the first one. 656 00:39:46,098 --> 00:39:47,738 you go. 657 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,489 Then there's Nanoboto. 658 00:39:49,489 --> 00:39:51,810 We discussed Nanoboto here in MLT before. 659 00:39:51,810 --> 00:40:00,362 He is the head trickster of the Ojibwas and some of those Great Lake tribes, part man, part hair, introduced shamanism and medicine through the Metawean society, then through 660 00:40:00,362 --> 00:40:03,803 otter medicine, again tied into that Kushtikalore. 661 00:40:03,803 --> 00:40:12,186 So he is their proto shaman or their train the trainer medicine man, and yet we find all the trickster tropes present with him as well, or at least many of them. 662 00:40:12,186 --> 00:40:13,858 This is one um 663 00:40:13,858 --> 00:40:16,457 Somewhere back in the mausoleum I said this one. 664 00:40:16,616 --> 00:40:20,049 Welcome to the Mars, O'Leo. 665 00:40:22,112 --> 00:40:24,894 god, what is that smell? 666 00:40:26,584 --> 00:40:36,840 Quote, like a nearly all American Indian cultural heroes, a composite and contradictory character, he is the most powerful of supernatural beings, the creator of all ceremonies, 667 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:43,503 you know, on the other hand he is a buffoon, the butt of gross jokes, a dupe and a victim of his own stupidity and greed. 668 00:40:43,623 --> 00:40:50,747 That is from Voglin Ermine Ermine Voglin, the Funk and Wagnell Standard Dictionary, folklore, mythology and legend. 669 00:40:50,747 --> 00:40:56,610 So again, Bohm

wanted to not make this happen, but they're all over. 670 00:40:56,866 --> 00:41:03,116 This this up and down, good and bad um fool and hero is is just there. 671 00:41:03,116 --> 00:41:04,280 You're calling Bonut so much. 672 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,424 I'm gonna have to give him a rebutton episode. 673 00:41:06,563 --> 00:41:10,745 It's just we've we have gone over these things and he does not he's not listening. 674 00:41:10,745 --> 00:41:15,078 Doesn't have s is you know, he's and he he also has he likes Hermes and Loki. 675 00:41:15,078 --> 00:41:18,071 He likes the refined super trickster. 676 00:41:18,071 --> 00:41:22,978 He's not that interested in in the ones that are tripping over their own feet. 677 00:41:22,978 --> 00:41:23,600 That is true. 678 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:32,558 He very much wants the the archetype in and without the subgenre that you're getting into kind of thing. 679 00:41:32,558 --> 00:41:33,739 Exactly. 680 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,280 I agree. 681 00:41:35,361 --> 00:41:40,675 But it's also that Firebringer stuff we talked about, Promethean style Firebringer. 682 00:41:40,675 --> 00:41:44,358 He is a bit of a hero trickster, Prometheus, not much of one. 683 00:41:44,467 --> 00:41:46,790 You why Prometheus brought us fire? 684 00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:47,191 Yeah. 685 00:41:47,191 --> 00:41:49,054 Because he wanted to see what would happen. 686 00:41:49,054 --> 00:41:50,987 He just that's trickster, right? 687 00:41:50,987 --> 00:41:53,671 He just what happens if I give monkeys fire? 688 00:41:53,671 --> 00:41:54,222 Yeah. 689 00:41:54,222 --> 00:41:55,284 You know? 690 00:41:55,284 --> 00:41:56,810 I just want to see what happens. 691 00:41:56,810 --> 00:41:57,590 Yeah. 692 00:41:57,590 --> 00:41:59,751 But he ended up getting out of there, remember that. 693 00:41:59,751 --> 00:42:00,250 You know? 694 00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:01,032 Mm-hmm. 695 00:42:01,032 --> 00:42:09,615 So tricksters often represent the very best and or very worst of us, more importantly, those betwixt and between areas with access to both of these extremes depending on their 696 00:42:09,615 --> 00:42:12,016 mood, need, or the situation. 697 00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:16,458 rabbit tricksters, we're not going to go into that, but because we did a whole episode. 698 00:42:16,906 --> 00:42:17,791 Rabbits, did you say? 699 00:42:17,791 --> 00:42:20,340 Yeah, there's our Leap Day special was classic. 700 00:42:20,340 --> 00:42:26,189 Not a boat so is is is one of the examples, but there's a lot of other examples of rabbit tricks. 701 00:42:26,189 --> 00:42:29,974 You know, if you go back in the mausoleum we can dig up endless ones here. 702 00:42:29,974 --> 00:42:31,470 But but the end of that road 703 00:42:31,470 --> 00:42:35,776 Episode twenty eight for uh for our leap day special. 704 00:42:35,776 --> 00:42:36,036 Right. 705 00:42:36,036 --> 00:42:40,460 And at the end of that Leap Day special, we determine Bugs Bunny as a trickster proto shaman. 706 00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:43,273 D D D is the word Yeah, do you remember Ra? 707 00:42:43,273 --> 00:42:45,214 Richard Adams Watership Down? 708 00:42:45,214 --> 00:42:46,715 It means chief rabbit. 709 00:42:46,715 --> 00:42:55,483 So Bugs, well, if you're Looney Tunes fans out there, and we did this already, but it was the song is Frickerfracker, Fricker Fraser, Shish Boom Bah, Bugs Bunny, Bugs Bunny, Ra Ra 710 00:42:55,483 --> 00:42:56,184 Ra. 711 00:42:56,184 --> 00:43:04,064 Three Ra's and if Ra means chief, that makes him thrice great Bugs Bunny, just like we were talking about Hermes Trismegistus. 712 00:43:04,064 --> 00:43:06,555 He would be Hermes Bugs Magistus. 713 00:43:06,555 --> 00:43:06,865 Wow. 714 00:43:06,865 --> 00:43:08,396 Thrice great. 715 00:43:08,516 --> 00:43:09,136 I know. 716 00:43:09,136 --> 00:43:12,538 And I think that's pretty I think that that's one of my favorite episodes, by the way. 717 00:43:12,538 --> 00:43:13,818 Go back and listen. 718 00:43:14,318 --> 00:43:15,999 It's still very silly. 719 00:43:20,121 --> 00:43:21,281 Well that's a trickster. 720 00:43:21,281 --> 00:43:21,932 There you go. 721 00:43:21,932 --> 00:43:23,038 And that's Aztec. 722 00:43:23,038 --> 00:43:25,911 And Bugs Bunny really is the ultimate all time trick. 723 00:43:25,911 --> 00:43:26,851 Yes. 724 00:43:27,554 --> 00:43:28,015 Exactly. 725 00:43:28,015 --> 00:43:29,216 That's why he has to be mentioned. 726 00:43:29,216 --> 00:43:32,611 Steps out of his own dimension, talks talks to the person that created him. 727 00:43:32,611 --> 00:43:33,903 He literally talks to God. 728 00:43:33,903 --> 00:43:37,101 And he's like, What are you doing? 729 00:43:37,101 --> 00:43:37,898 Give me that. 730 00:43:37,898 --> 00:43:40,164 Give me that. 731 00:43:40,164 --> 00:43:41,985 Breaking the fourth wall there. 732 00:43:41,985 --> 00:43:44,439 But the Zulu tribe boasts some tricksters as well. 733 00:43:44,439 --> 00:43:49,984 Here's a good overview from Christ Christina Pratt's Encyclopedia of Shamanism in the show notes. 734 00:43:50,786 --> 00:43:59,212 The Zulu people believe that it is wise to remember that creation is not perfect and that we are all prone to mistakes. 735 00:43:59,853 --> 00:44:05,717 Therefore, heroes who are also fools and the trickster are much loved teachers. 736 00:44:06,238 --> 00:44:12,692 Kintu is the hero fool, and the tales of his escapades with the people are many. 737 00:44:14,318 --> 00:44:24,485 In the Animal Kingdom, Mpungushi M-P-U-N-G-U-S-H-E, the jackal is a trickster. 738 00:44:25,166 --> 00:44:31,890 He is the eater of dung, whose keen nose finds the trails that are invisible to humans. 739 00:44:32,391 --> 00:44:33,931 Sounds like my dog. 740 00:44:33,952 --> 00:44:39,715 He is loved for stealing fire from the village of the gods to warm the first humans. 741 00:44:40,116 --> 00:44:43,276 Anansi the spider, also a trickster. 742

00:44:43,276 --> 00:44:48,637 weaves the web of creation which is full of many tricks. 743 00:44:51,114 --> 00:44:54,475 Also have the Hyokoal and the Sar of the Sierra Madres in Mexico. 744 00:44:54,475 --> 00:44:55,675 We've mentioned them before. 745 00:44:55,675 --> 00:45:02,937 They relate their old proto shaman, both a shaman and a god and a firebringer, and his name is our grandfather fire. 746 00:45:03,237 --> 00:45:13,720 In the Japanese mythology handbook, I found Chikap Kamoi, K A M U I, an owl deity an owl deity hailed as master of the domain. 747 00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:19,982 This owl presides over ritual and sacrifice and also taught humanity better tricks for catching fish. 748 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,020 That's from Japan. 749 00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:23,082 Teach a man to fish handbook library. 750 00:45:23,082 --> 00:45:24,033 Exactly. 751 00:45:24,033 --> 00:45:28,697 So an owl trickster, but hunting tricks is a common trope as well. 752 00:45:29,077 --> 00:45:35,263 Japan Japan also boasts the Kitsune, a fox trickster shapeshifter, and the Tengu, a raccoon dog. 753 00:45:35,263 --> 00:45:38,125 We've mentioned these before, both tricksters. 754 00:45:38,125 --> 00:45:39,716 Kitsune isn't the only fox. 755 00:45:39,716 --> 00:45:46,192 Another fox like the one from Hails from West Africa is Ogo Yoruga of the Dogon. 756 00:45:46,192 --> 00:45:48,914 Europe even has Renard the Fox. 757 00:45:49,235 --> 00:45:53,746 Uh more of a fairy tale type trickster, kind of a brothers grimy kind of guy. 758 00:45:53,746 --> 00:45:54,509 Okay. 759 00:45:54,509 --> 00:45:58,040 But their Shinto Kami variants also go ahead. 760 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:03,210 There were a lot of foxes in the Brothers Grimm and the original Aesops fables and stuff too, right? 761 00:46:03,210 --> 00:46:05,312 There's a number of fox tales. 762 00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:05,921 Yep. 763 00:46:05,921 --> 00:46:13,160 This one is not I thought it was a brother's grim, but it's Renard the Fox is not, but it's from that same same region. 764 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:13,661 grapes? 765 00:46:13,661 --> 00:46:15,023 The fox and the grapes. 766 00:46:15,023 --> 00:46:16,084 I can't remember how that one goes. 767 00:46:16,084 --> 00:46:17,045 I'm gonna have to look that up later. 768 00:46:17,045 --> 00:46:19,729 I'll look it up later. 769 00:46:19,729 --> 00:46:23,510 uh 770 00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:24,210 There you go. 771 00:46:24,210 --> 00:46:33,626 But their Shintu Kami variants are also known as messengers, so some of the same themes, but some scholars scoff at the tricksters' patterns because individually tricksters do 772 00:46:33,626 --> 00:46:37,978 have varying qualities, but how do you ignore the global similarities? 773 00:46:37,978 --> 00:46:47,484 I don't understand critics of this because there's is enough commonalities in tricksters to say yes, there's a batch of things that seems to be their traits. 774 00:46:47,484 --> 00:46:48,004 Mm. 775 00:46:48,004 --> 00:46:50,938 I think it's skullly mogul splaining to me, in my opinion. 776 00:46:50,938 --> 00:46:51,500 But I 777 00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:56,925 Scully muckles plant so many words involved in that one word, that's great. 778 00:46:57,203 --> 00:47:10,875 I came across another Zulu Trickster Thlokunya T H L O K U N Y A N A described as either a little man the size of a weasel or an actual red weasel. 779 00:47:10,875 --> 00:47:14,658 Of course at high altitudes this may be the origin of the ice weasels. 780 00:47:14,658 --> 00:47:15,030 Yeah. 781 00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:17,468 I was just thinking the otters again, yeah. 782 00:47:18,135 --> 00:47:20,015 Oh the actual ice weasels. 783 00:47:20,015 --> 00:47:25,758 My friend Fred was doing acid and he uh kept mumbling about the ice weasels for weeks after. 784 00:47:25,758 --> 00:47:37,503 But a variation of this guy from the Zosa people of South Africa, that's X H O S A, comes Halakaniana, and it's a similar name, a a same similar region. 785 00:47:37,503 --> 00:47:46,356 H L A K N Y N A, a trickster who gives us more evidence that these beings and themes reach back to the pre consciousness. 786 00:47:46,424 --> 00:47:49,156 kinda aura borisy realm we were talking about. 787 00:47:49,336 --> 00:47:51,398 This from Trickster Tales Stories. 788 00:47:51,398 --> 00:47:58,463 Halakania has been a trickster since the dawn of things, when the world was as strange as a dream and nothing was real or unreal. 789 00:47:58,824 --> 00:48:01,826 And that's from Josephia Sherman, Trickster Tales. 790 00:48:01,826 --> 00:48:07,342 before anything was on the canvas before the painter started working. 791 00:48:07,342 --> 00:48:16,289 first paintings and those first strokes and those first reflexive moments is what in some ways it's it could be the essence of the trickster looking back at those first brush 792 00:48:16,289 --> 00:48:17,700 strokes and saying, What is happening? 793 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:18,941 What is going on? 794 00:48:18,941 --> 00:48:23,364 First evidence of consciousness occurred with trickster energy. 795 00:48:23,425 --> 00:48:25,302 And that's what in some ways that's one of 796 00:48:25,302 --> 00:48:26,997 my God, yeah, 'cause curiosity. 797 00:48:26,997 --> 00:48:29,346 What else would spark it except the curiosity? 798 00:48:29,346 --> 00:48:33,299 But that's where Bone, you know, was making fun of the fool, but in some ways they weren't the fool. 799 00:48:33,299 --> 00:48:36,442 They were the hero, the first people commenting on what's happening. 800 00:48:36,442 --> 00:48:39,448 First the first reflexive consciousness. 801 00:48:39,448 --> 00:48:41,572 Hey everybody, look over there. 802 00:48:41,572 --> 00:48:42,544 Yeah. 803 00:48:42,544 --> 00:48:43,585 You know? 804 00:48:43,585 --> 00:48:48,113 Like the first the first one to yell land ho on the ship. 805 00:48:48,113 --> 00:48:49,396 You know what I mean?

806 00:48:49,396 --> 00:48:51,258 That's the trickster to looking. 807 00:48:51,439 --> 00:48:53,334 The curiosity drives them. 808 00:48:53,334 --> 00:48:59,338 Yeah, and I I think it's an important if we miss that point, we we miss a lot, basically. 809 00:48:59,338 --> 00:49:00,579 But back to great point. 810 00:49:00,579 --> 00:49:10,606 Back to Mexico comes uh K A U Y U A R I of the Huacara people of Mexico, known as our elder brother Deertail. 811 00:49:10,606 --> 00:49:14,428 Some version he's a blue deer that serves as both culture hero trickster. 812 00:49:14,428 --> 00:49:17,400 His exploits are described as clever and frequently amusing. 813 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,633 Uh but then again, he's also more clownish at times. 814 00:49:21,633 --> 00:49:22,834 Sorry, Bone. 815 00:49:23,786 --> 00:49:27,447 He sports deer horns, which seem to be the object of his power. 816 00:49:27,447 --> 00:49:34,189 He's one of those many trickers who initially behaves badly but then transitions through his adventures into a sacred being, another common trope. 817 00:49:34,189 --> 00:49:51,018 uh 818 00:49:51,018 --> 00:49:59,189 Set up a a verbal cage match between you and Bone at the end of all and finish off the series. 819 00:49:59,655 --> 00:50:00,675 Then there's Maui. 820 00:50:00,675 --> 00:50:06,797 Maui's another trickster from Hawaiian folklore, kind of a Promethean type again, brings fire to mankind. 821 00:50:07,477 --> 00:50:12,558 you know, he's another he does a million things, but he also has this trickster component to him. 822 00:50:12,558 --> 00:50:16,499 Then there's Saki from Brazil, S A C I. 823 00:50:16,499 --> 00:50:22,221 he's a one legged black man who has a magical hat that makes him disappear, can also shape shift into a bird. 824 00:50:22,221 --> 00:50:26,252 He's a total prankster trickster type, playing endless jokes on humans. 825 00:50:26,759 --> 00:50:29,935 one leg, a hat and can shape shift and fly. 826 00:50:29,935 --> 00:50:30,356 Yeah. 827 00:50:30,356 --> 00:50:32,962 That's like the yeah, that that's everything right there. 828 00:50:32,962 --> 00:50:41,694 Yeah, when we talk when we go back to the shape shifting spreadsheet that I started before we even started recording, it had these w one thing off, it had these one magical ability, 829 00:50:41,694 --> 00:50:44,952 it had this one connection to the animal, it had this one totem, you know. 830 00:50:44,952 --> 00:50:47,763 That guy fills out the whole checklist right there. 831 00:50:49,582 --> 00:50:58,902 There's also a gin like aspect to sake as well, 'cause he can be trapped in bottles, and return for deposit void in Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire. 832 00:50:58,902 --> 00:51:03,721 I'm I'm pretty sure you proved it in the gin episode that everything just goes back to the gin. 833 00:51:03,721 --> 00:51:04,139 It's 834 00:51:04,139 --> 00:51:06,860 was Rosemary Ellen Guiley, not me. 835 00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:09,580 But I'm

not disagreeing that she has the 836 00:51:09,610 --> 00:51:13,282 I believe it's all just living energy presenting in different forms. 837 00:51:13,726 --> 00:51:15,048 I personally do believe it. 838 00:51:15,048 --> 00:51:27,469 Well, we just talked about Patrick Harper last time too, and he is more daimonic, D A I d D Demones and and i it does it i it we're gonna talk more about hold that thought 'cause I 839 00:51:27,469 --> 00:51:28,570 think we're gonna get to that. 840 00:51:28,570 --> 00:51:30,161 I mean someday. 841 00:51:32,084 --> 00:51:34,839 Then we have Sun Wukong, the monkey king. 842 00:51:34,839 --> 00:51:36,326 He's one of my favorites, man. 843 00:51:36,326 --> 00:51:37,184 I love that guy. 844 00:51:37,184 --> 00:51:38,820 Yep, Chinese folklore. 845 00:51:38,820 --> 00:51:41,274 Um he's the master of the heavenly stable. 846 00:51:41,274 --> 00:51:43,840 He flies on cloud. 847 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,315 has a magic staff that can change size from toothpick to utility pole guy. 848 00:51:48,315 --> 00:51:51,695 But again, that's what the shapeshifters do, very small to very large. 849 00:51:51,695 --> 00:51:53,220 That's another trope we found. 850 00:51:53,220 --> 00:51:55,919 Then all of a sudden they're they're tiny and then all of a sudden 851 00:51:55,919 --> 00:52:00,030 make a whole bunch of tiny little duplicates of himself, runner, like minions. 852 00:52:00,313 --> 00:52:00,815 Yep. 853 00:52:00,815 --> 00:52:02,034 He's ultimate shaped 854 00:52:02,034 --> 00:52:05,019 and he crashed into the south gate of heaven, which is pretty trickster. 855 00:52:05,019 --> 00:52:06,100 He beat heaven. 856 00:52:06,946 --> 00:52:10,449 They had to bury him under a mountain because he won a war against heaven. 857 00:52:11,386 --> 00:52:13,159 I I love the Monkey King, dude. 858 00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:14,780 I'm so into the Monkey King. 859 00:52:14,990 --> 00:52:18,112 I found my ones from Myth and Legends of China from E.T. 860 00:52:18,112 --> 00:52:18,322 C. 861 00:52:18,322 --> 00:52:18,812 Werner. 862 00:52:18,812 --> 00:52:21,053 His is better, so good job on that. 863 00:52:21,053 --> 00:52:24,945 Kumalisa is another one, a Bulgarian Russian trickster from mythology and fables. 864 00:52:24,945 --> 00:52:33,599 Mark's another manifestation of the trickster archetype and is related to the Western European counterpart, the aforementioned Renard the Fox, kind of brothers Grimy. 865 00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:37,301 But we also have Raven, a huge trickster figure in the Pacific Northwest. 866 00:52:37,301 --> 00:52:40,812 He's their proto shaman and creator, figure of a number of tribes. 867 00:52:41,006 --> 00:52:48,986 he's the mediator and messenger between men, gods, who again appears in a number of folk tales, straddling between hero and shady and slippery. 868 00:52:48,986 --> 00:52:57,177 Uh Raven is one trickster that is more on the witty, clever, and highly intelligent side of the trickster, so be a big you know, Bowman be a big fan of this guy. 869 00:52:57,177 --> 00:53:07,634 In one version, Raven is born as the shining one, almost a changeling like, and after he eats his first food, which is a a scab from something called mouth at each end, very 870 00:53:07,634 --> 00:53:10,850 auraboric, Raven then becomes voracious. 871 00:53:10,850 --> 00:53:14,211 Some versions emptying the entire tribe's food supplies. 872 00:53:14,251 --> 00:53:20,414 To move away from our global trickster roll call ferment though, it's still hanging on to this raven thread. 873 00:53:20,414 --> 00:53:26,476 Remember tricksters, the main drives, they were either horny or hungry, it's lust and gluttony, among other deadly sins. 874 00:53:26,476 --> 00:53:32,599 But as author Lewis Hyde points out, early humans were slaves to the alimentary canal. 875 00:53:32,599 --> 00:53:36,501 So the food in generals we forever must eat to fend off death. 876 00:53:36,501 --> 00:53:40,226 So to quote Hyde from his trickster makes this world. 877 00:53:40,226 --> 00:53:44,969 Trickster myth derives creative intelligence from appetite. 878 00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:50,754 So it's what they're driven towards and it's their their passions and desires and needs. 879 00:53:51,876 --> 00:53:52,997 That's right. 880 00:53:52,997 --> 00:53:53,557 That's right. 881 00:53:53,557 --> 00:53:57,981 And it seems the first elements of characteristics to emerge from this Ouroborosy state. 882 00:53:57,981 --> 00:54:06,468 Got the chaos dragons, the serpents, the sky gods, then we get the hero, savior, great hunter, then we get the shaman, the sorcerer, the magician. 883 00:54:06,468 --> 00:54:08,449 They're the shape shifting and 884 00:54:09,292 --> 00:54:10,983 And of course the monster. 885 00:54:10,983 --> 00:54:13,896 And then of course the trickster, the darker brother, arrives. 886 00:54:13,896 --> 00:54:19,090 These are the same main themes that seem to make up all of our stories and all of our tales. 887 00:54:19,090 --> 00:54:24,053 And it's why I think it's tougher to separate things out the way Bones trying to do. 888 00:54:24,053 --> 00:54:29,638 It seems like there's only these main archetypes and they spill and bleed into one another. 889 00:54:29,638 --> 00:54:32,240 Sometimes literally. 890 00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:33,140 Yep. 891 00:54:33,221 --> 00:54:34,361 Pretty much. 892 00:54:35,938 --> 00:54:42,363 But Hunger Games were the first games in town, and that's why there's so much of the trickster, you know, was driven towards survival. 893 00:54:42,363 --> 00:54:43,223 You know. 894 00:54:43,223 --> 00:54:47,957 Here's Lewis Hyde again, quote, Trickster's intelligence springs from appetite in two ways. 895 00:54:47,957 --> 00:54:53,351 It simultaneously seeks to satiate hunger, to subvert all hunger, not its own. 896 00:54:53,351 --> 00:54:54,592 Dot dot dot. 897 00:54:54,592 --> 00:55:01,477 The Trickster Raven is a mixture of the

shining boy plus appetite, being of considerable power who is unable to satiate his hunger. 898 00:55:01,477 --> 00:55:03,096 Trickster makes this world. 899 00:55:03,096 --> 00:55:10,369 Gives it sunlight, fish and berries, but he makes it as it is, a world of constant need, work, limitation, and death. 900 00:55:10,590 --> 00:55:12,300 The good, the bad, and the ugly, basically. 901 00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:21,515 Eventually, hundreds of thousands of years later, some podcasters channeling these trickster impulses even create truly monstrous food segments about werewolves and 902 00:55:21,515 --> 00:55:23,075 cannibalistic lure. 903 00:55:23,676 --> 00:55:24,396 You know. 904 00:55:24,396 --> 00:55:24,937 Hmm. 905 00:55:24,937 --> 00:55:25,497 Yep. 906 00:55:25,497 --> 00:55:27,938 Bella legacy's tasty bites. 907 00:55:27,938 --> 00:55:34,754 Yeah, the the werewolf, the vampire, the cannibal, that's all kinda tied in together, isn't it? 908 00:55:34,754 --> 00:55:37,836 Well, it is a in the segment called Wolfman Pucket, we do. 909 00:55:37,836 --> 00:55:39,555 Yeah, there you go. 910 00:55:40,270 --> 00:55:44,613 But during this long state of oneness, there is no division, thus no food. 911 00:55:44,613 --> 00:55:49,256 As soon as you are plunged into the land of ten thousand things, post-dualism, it gets weird. 912 00:55:49,256 --> 00:55:52,939 As soon as there is separation, a second sensation enters the scene. 913 00:55:52,939 --> 00:55:56,661 So those hunger games are followed by fear again, back to Epanishads. 914 00:55:56,661 --> 00:56:02,886 ah But while cunning paves the way for the trickster, fear paves the way for the emergence of the monster. 915 00:56:02,886 --> 00:56:09,038 So similarities and differences, but as we will see in the end, complementary forces at least before. 916 00:56:09,038 --> 00:56:11,221 Potentially, at least that's what I'm trying to get at. 917 00:56:11,221 --> 00:56:13,524 Does the trickster and the monster work together? 918 00:56:13,524 --> 00:56:16,748 Is it the sheriff and the deputy, bad cop, worse cop? 919 00:56:16,748 --> 00:56:18,491 Are they true antagonists? 920 00:56:18,491 --> 00:56:20,313 Are the two portal guardians? 921 00:56:20,313 --> 00:56:22,606 Trickster is often there, but why? 922 00:56:22,606 --> 00:56:25,920 Uh but back to global trickster roll call. 923 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,742 Who did we miss, Jeremy? 924 00:56:27,794 --> 00:56:28,855 geez. 925 00:56:29,779 --> 00:56:31,162 Who did we miss? 926 00:56:31,162 --> 00:56:32,905 You did so many. 927 00:56:32,918 --> 00:56:42,030 I and and again it wasn't even an exhaustive list and I tried to get through quick, but there's just so many We did we have Did we do pan? 928 00:56:42,030 --> 00:56:42,670 Uh 929 00:56:42,670 --> 00:56:45,510 Did well you did just row taller earlier at some point. 930 00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:47,320 Was that the last episode or this one? 931 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,013 Pan, that's a good one. 932 00:56:49,013 --> 00:56:54,090 Um, Pan is is debatable whether he's a trickster, but he definitely has a lot of the tropes. 933 00:56:54,090 --> 00:56:56,662 You know, he definitely follows a lot of those. 934 00:56:56,662 --> 00:56:57,480 He's got the flute. 935 00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:58,898 He's kinda like the 936 00:56:59,020 --> 00:57:03,302 Fertility God and he is he's the he's in his own way a trickster. 937 00:57:03,302 --> 00:57:04,052 Yeah. 938 00:57:04,052 --> 00:57:05,852 But we forgot Loki. 939 00:57:06,073 --> 00:57:07,553 And I were Loki? 940 00:57:07,553 --> 00:57:09,590 Well we were last time. 941 00:57:09,754 --> 00:57:10,354 Yeah. 942 00:57:10,354 --> 00:57:14,035 And he's our featured trickster, 'cause we gotta give Bone some credit here. 943 00:57:14,035 --> 00:57:19,477 He's a great example of one who opens those doors to the inner forces of the trickster archetype. 944 00:57:19,667 --> 00:57:21,738 he's the epi trickster in a way. 945 00:57:21,761 --> 00:57:23,235 yeah, we talked about him a lot last time. 946 00:57:23,235 --> 00:57:23,616 Yeah. 947 00:57:23,616 --> 00:57:24,407 Yeah. 948 00:57:24,407 --> 00:57:29,451 In the end the great walls of Osgard are only permeable because of his energies and antics. 949 00:57:29,451 --> 00:57:32,984 He is the son of a goddess and a frost giant as we talked about last time. 950 00:57:32,984 --> 00:57:38,595 Loki's a consummate shapeshifter, as well as appearing as a mare, salmon, and even a fly. 951 00:57:38,595 --> 00:57:42,614 He likes to make a bunch of mixed species children like he was himself. 952 00:57:42,614 --> 00:57:43,094 Correct. 953 00:57:43,094 --> 00:57:46,675 So that's another and Bone pointed this out before I even said it. 954 00:57:46,675 --> 00:57:52,277 The big tie in with the monster and and and the trickster is Loki because he creates all these monsters. 955 00:57:52,277 --> 00:57:57,478 Slipner and Sralfafari, a stallion that gives birth to this eight legged horse named Slipner. 956 00:57:57,478 --> 00:58:07,351 So he's he's having he's basically procreating and having and giving birth to all the monsters that again come back to haunt Odin and friends. 957 00:58:07,351 --> 00:58:10,262 I had There you go. 958 00:58:10,684 --> 00:58:20,770 So Loki as the trickster is the creator of the monsters, but the monster had to help create Loki because he's half frost giant. 959 00:58:21,851 --> 00:58:24,833 So the monster creates the trickster creates the monster. 960 00:58:24,833 --> 00:58:25,193 Yeah. 961 00:58:25,193 --> 00:58:27,334 And it just cycles around on itself. 962 00:58:27,404 --> 00:58:31,496 Yeah, it's very auraborously and and it's very snake eating its own tail. 963 00:58:31,496 --> 00:58:32,997 It comes back to that. 964 00:58:32,997 --> 00:58:38,120 But what I'm gonna get into at some point is what are they doing at crossroads at portals? 965 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:44,403 Why do they seem to be

at the edge of every change, like we talked about with Jeffrey Cohen's monster theory? 966 00:58:44,403 --> 00:58:49,806 Why are that they why are they at all these edges of transition? 967 00:58:49,806 --> 00:58:54,188 And I think that's what I'm gonna eventually get to at some point. 968 00:58:54,609 --> 00:58:57,166 Monsters and tricksters inhabit the crossroads. 969 00:58:57,166 --> 00:59:00,489 But more than that, they occupy the same cosmogonic landscape. 970 00:59:00,489 --> 00:59:05,184 They're between the norms and taboo, between the mountains and the sky, between the forest and homestead. 971 00:59:05,184 --> 00:59:08,817 Remember how we found so many monsters between land and sea. 972 00:59:09,458 --> 00:59:10,329 Back to Pan. 973 00:59:10,329 --> 00:59:14,282 He was the one you just mentioned, peering from the edge of the woodland. 974 00:59:16,825 --> 00:59:21,934 But the Banja Achery, same thing, between the icy cave and the settlement below. 975 00:59:21,934 --> 00:59:23,610 That's another one of my favorite episodes. 976 00:59:23,610 --> 00:59:26,230 The Yeti Bon Jacri two Parter. 977 00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:27,594 Love those episodes. 978 00:59:27,594 --> 00:59:28,154 So good. 979 00:59:28,154 --> 00:59:29,255 Thank you. 980 00:59:29,455 --> 00:59:37,000 Uh and Odin's decision after the death of Baldur, to bind Loki in a cave with the bits of his own children, wrapped them with in his entrails. 981 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,621 That led that's bad. 982 00:59:38,621 --> 00:59:40,302 Never put trickster in a corner. 983 00:59:40,302 --> 00:59:43,344 Never exactly. 984 00:59:43,344 --> 00:59:46,125 The only trickster who can get away with that is Ecke. 985 00:59:46,185 --> 00:59:47,966 Because his name means corner. 986 00:59:47,966 --> 00:59:51,469 So I'm kind of thinking that that that would that's German for corner. 987 00:59:51,469 --> 00:59:53,784 But meanwhile, author Lewis Hyde compares 988 00:59:53,784 --> 00:59:56,677 Trickster whose name is translates to corner? 989 00:59:57,820 --> 00:59:59,237 Kinda interesting actually. 990 00:59:59,237 --> 01:00:00,277 Yeah. 991 01:00:00,277 --> 01:00:01,959 There's a stupid Hans one. 992 01:00:01,959 --> 01:00:04,141 Germans have some cool ones as well. 993 01:00:04,141 --> 01:00:06,643 But meanwhile, author I couldn't go you can't go through all of them. 994 01:00:06,643 --> 01:00:07,103 Yeah. 995 01:00:07,103 --> 01:00:17,051 But meanwhile, author Lewis Hyde compares this breaching of the walls of Asgard to the creation of that threatening contingency, which of course Loki's at the heart. 996 01:00:17,051 --> 01:00:25,772 It also allows for the very potential for or the core of the manifestation of Lila, the play of life, to culminate and a chapter to conclude. 997 01:00:25,772 --> 01:00:28,304 Trickers often create the problem and the solution. 998 01:00:28,304 --> 01:00:33,346 Or as Alex Bowen once put it, without Loki, Norse mythology is one shitty

frat party. 999 01:00:33,767 --> 01:00:39,130 But a monster patrols somewhere in Tucson. 1000 01:00:39,130 --> 01:00:42,951 It wasn't that too long ago to Tucson. 1001 01:00:42,952 --> 01:00:50,776 But a monster patrols these new threatening contingencies, trickster's actions birthing like Loki actual monsters who patrol these areas. 1002 01:00:50,776 --> 01:00:54,370 And there's an interesting tie into these elementals we keep running into. 1003 01:00:54,370 --> 01:00:56,611 Many of them have a trickster component. 1004 01:00:56,952 --> 01:00:59,314 these traits are entwined in the land. 1005 01:00:59,314 --> 01:01:08,782 The elemental guardians like Leshi, the Kushtica, the Shang Kwao of China, countless other Jin and fairy folk are tied in from witch lights and orbs. 1006 01:01:09,313 --> 01:01:15,649 they all t touch into specific places, but they're guarding, but there's a trickster component to them. 1007 01:01:15,649 --> 01:01:16,550 You know. 1008 01:01:16,550 --> 01:01:21,767 There are even a number of monsters that will tickle you to death with sounds pretty but it kind of sounds trickster. 1009 01:01:21,767 --> 01:01:25,200 Yeah, I don't know why the 1010 01:01:25,206 --> 01:01:29,180 And humor runs through some of these trickster monster tales, as we shall see. 1011 01:01:29,180 --> 01:01:29,982 Sometimes it's 1012 01:01:29,982 --> 01:01:32,693 You're starting to percolate the bubbles. 1013 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:34,130 Bulls. 1014 01:01:34,130 --> 01:01:37,342 oh, that's bad. 1015 01:01:37,342 --> 01:01:38,673 That's not a good thing. 1016 01:01:38,673 --> 01:01:40,093 But tricksters are literature. 1017 01:01:40,093 --> 01:01:41,934 We we don't even have time for that tonight. 1018 01:01:41,934 --> 01:01:43,856 But they follow the same themes. 1019 01:01:43,856 --> 01:01:48,438 But literary and and stories like them that involve the trickster. 1020 01:01:48,438 --> 01:01:52,560 Um well, sometimes the author isn't the author. 1021 01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,692 Like sometimes they say they got downloaded. 1022 01:01:54,692 --> 01:01:58,023 They they connected with something that gave them the story. 1023 01:01:58,173 --> 01:02:00,995 many of the similar themes emerged from our collective unconscious. 1024 01:02:00,995 --> 01:02:03,254 Best example, the trickster. 1025 01:02:03,254 --> 01:02:11,078 Snorri Stirleson, who wrote the he wrote the prose edas, Loki would become a much bigger character in that after he wrote that. 1026 01:02:11,078 --> 01:02:15,861 And, you know, who knows if the if Loki helped him make that? 1027 01:02:15,861 --> 01:02:20,384 You know, uh same thing might have happened with the Arthurian legend. 1028 01:02:20,384 --> 01:02:26,707 Robert Lewis Stevens talks about how Brownies gave him his stories like Jekyll and Hyde and whatnot. 1029 01:02:26,707 --> 01:02:30,489 Marion Zimmer Bradley talks about the Avalon Zer series. 1030 01:02:30,509 --> 01:02:31,700 You know, it's like 1031 01:02:32,888 --> 01:02:36,021 Who's the one Arthur's sister there help me out? 1032 01:02:36,021 --> 01:02:38,403 I'm having I'm spacing at the moment. 1033 01:02:38,403 --> 01:02:39,694 Morgana LaFay. 1034 01:02:39,694 --> 01:02:46,539 So Morgana Le Fay actually w pulled her aside and said, You gotta write the Ethereum legends from the female perspective. 1035 01:02:46,539 --> 01:02:48,651 Come on, Marion, let's do this, you know. 1036 01:02:48,651 --> 01:02:49,372 Yeah. 1037 01:02:49,372 --> 01:02:52,934 These are weird stories and why do these things keep surfacing? 1038 01:02:52,934 --> 01:02:57,738 And even some of the authors admit I don't know where that story came from, you know? 1039 01:02:59,286 --> 01:03:00,896 It's it's odd, you know. 1040 01:03:00,896 --> 01:03:06,806 It's like how Dirk gently created the rhyme of the ancient mariner through the time vortex. 1041 01:03:06,806 --> 01:03:08,137 Yeah, exactly. 1042 01:03:08,137 --> 01:03:09,967 Is when that happens. 1043 01:03:09,967 --> 01:03:12,028 Those stupid time loops. 1044 01:03:12,188 --> 01:03:22,373 But after a review of Wiki and I use Wiki as my final double check, I I I couldn't find in the fic the fiction literary section of Trickster, I couldn't find Beetlejuice. 1045 01:03:22,453 --> 01:03:25,418 So so I have a mini Ahu Guano theory. 1046 01:03:25,418 --> 01:03:25,799 jeez. 1047 01:03:25,799 --> 01:03:27,262 Nahuguano Theory of the Week. 1048 01:03:27,262 --> 01:03:29,265 Oh no, here it comes. 1049 01:03:29,507 --> 01:03:31,651 Quick to the batshit signal. 1050 01:03:31,651 --> 01:03:33,473 Willal lily lily. 1051 01:03:33,954 --> 01:03:39,414 You have to submit that particular entry to Wikipedia three times before it'll show up. 1052 01:03:42,423 --> 01:03:43,082 In class. 1053 01:03:43,082 --> 01:03:43,783 And clap. 1054 01:03:43,783 --> 01:03:44,093 Right. 1055 01:03:44,093 --> 01:03:44,803 I don't know why. 1056 01:03:44,803 --> 01:03:51,448 But many tricksters globally are associated with bringing or stealing fire from the gods, as we've talked about, that Promethean effect. 1057 01:03:51,638 --> 01:03:56,912 but Prometheus is, you know, otherwise, like I said, I don't think, you know, I guess he's a trickster is the way you put it. 1058 01:03:56,912 --> 01:03:59,114 He just wanted to see what was gonna happen. 1059 01:03:59,114 --> 01:04:05,198 But that's not the way he's portrayed in some ways that he was sort of he was trying to help truly trying to help mankind. 1060 01:04:05,579 --> 01:04:09,962 but we mentioned several uh other ones that are firebringers, Laman, 1061 01:04:10,102 --> 01:04:14,292 tricks the giants who guard the sacred fire to give from the Philippines. 1062 01:04:14,292 --> 01:04:18,560 They're they're all the Tokyo Argentina. 1063 01:04:19,118 --> 01:04:22,006 what trickery related so closely to fire. 1064 01:04:22,006 --> 01:04:22,206 Right. 1065 01:04:22,206 --> 01:04:32,618 And again, I would just say

one thing that comes to mind right away is you know, fire in the mind and fire is associated with shamanism and and Oh it's kinda but it's an yeah, and 1066 01:04:32,618 --> 01:04:33,469 it's an element. 1067 01:04:33,469 --> 01:04:35,380 So back to the elementals. 1068 01:04:35,531 --> 01:04:37,403 but fire also is change. 1069 01:04:37,403 --> 01:04:40,098 You're changing something into something else. 1070 01:04:40,098 --> 01:04:42,829 Well and it's it's controlling the fire, right? 1071 01:04:42,829 --> 01:04:54,574 It's actually teaching them the control of the element and people being able to control the elements is how we got to, you know, sitting at microphones and recording on computers 1072 01:04:54,574 --> 01:04:59,296 and putting it on the interwebs on in a system that so few of us even understand. 1073 01:05:02,940 --> 01:05:03,724 Wait, what happened? 1074 01:05:03,724 --> 01:05:05,996 I just I just lost myself on that one. 1075 01:05:05,996 --> 01:05:06,690 What happened? 1076 01:05:06,690 --> 01:05:10,567 But there's definitely a lot and like I said, there's way more to this stuff. 1077 01:05:10,567 --> 01:05:20,774 But yeah, I mean you're also transforming things as you burn it and it's also that's where sacrifice ritual comes in and this is it's just I I don't know, we could do an episode on 1078 01:05:21,131 --> 01:05:29,267 fire, like the the the lore, like the the s metaphysical significances of fire, right? 1079 01:05:29,267 --> 01:05:30,654 We could do a whole episode on 1080 01:05:30,654 --> 01:05:33,595 Yeah, and we keep coming across the psychopomp theme. 1081 01:05:33,595 --> 01:05:36,186 Some tricksters do lead people to the underworld. 1082 01:05:36,186 --> 01:05:37,776 Hermes is one of them. 1083 01:05:37,816 --> 01:05:39,256 They go to heaven and hell. 1084 01:05:39,256 --> 01:05:47,639 Uh they're they're kind of we we find monsters or tricksters entwined with the ritual itself, and that's comes back to fire, by the way. 1085 01:05:47,739 --> 01:05:54,160 and I came across a weird kind of voodoo like death ritual in the work of anthropologist Arnold Van Gnep. 1086 01:05:54,160 --> 01:06:00,034 He tells of the Ostiak of Sulkard, a subarctic group with an elaborate death ritual. 1087 01:06:00,034 --> 01:06:03,256 The shaman is head of the ritual and sometimes a psychopomp. 1088 01:06:03,256 --> 01:06:08,119 And fun fact, they bury their dead facing north so they can find their way to the land of the dead. 1089 01:06:08,119 --> 01:06:08,690 There you go. 1090 01:06:08,690 --> 01:06:18,187 This tribe resides in the sub subarctic, but they send their dead even farther north to their version of the underworld, so it's a tough road, it's a tough bunch. 1091 01:06:19,288 --> 01:06:21,329 But yeah, well there's yeah. 1092 01:06:21,329 --> 01:06:23,851 I but underworlds go under. 1093 01:06:23,851 --> 01:06:27,063 North is top it's it's directionality gets confusing. 1094 01:06:27,063 --> 01:06:27,928 Yeah, it gets weird. 1095 01:06:27,928 --> 01:06:36,621 But with the Ostiak this process is really elaborate because they create a doll, which they then feed, bathe, and care for during their loved one's final journey. 1096 01:06:36,621 --> 01:06:39,710 So the loved one is part of the psychopomp process. 1097 01:06:39,710 --> 01:06:41,443 Like kind of right. 1098 01:06:41,443 --> 01:06:48,665 This is uh the ongoing doll care coincides with the expected travel time to their frozen land of the dead. 1099 01:06:48,665 --> 01:06:50,696 That's Arnold Van Gannett writes a passage. 1100 01:06:50,696 --> 01:06:52,056 You have a question, sir. 1101 01:06:52,056 --> 01:06:53,769 How do you feed a doll? 1102 01:06:54,220 --> 01:06:59,033 Well they're you know, they're they're making the food like a lion feeds their doll. 1103 01:06:59,033 --> 01:07:01,715 It's it's it's it's a ritual sacrifice. 1104 01:07:01,715 --> 01:07:12,481 When you give a bowl to any goddess, that that doesn't gen generally it's like putting it a liquid can evaporate, but it's the same it's the sa same ritual process. 1105 01:07:12,481 --> 01:07:13,614 But why and here's but 1106 01:07:13,614 --> 01:07:17,035 It's like putting an offering on a on a um correct altar. 1107 01:07:17,307 --> 01:07:22,330 But why do you think the they feed the doll for six months longer if it's ceased as a male? 1108 01:07:22,330 --> 01:07:27,613 Because remember it's two years, two and a half years if it's a male, two years if it's a female. 1109 01:07:27,934 --> 01:07:30,615 Why is it six months longer for the male? 1110 01:07:31,156 --> 01:07:33,975 You can if you think about this, you could you could probably get it. 1111 01:07:33,975 --> 01:07:35,626 Six months longer. 1112 01:07:41,622 --> 01:07:45,323 it was nine I would say it has something to do with the women making the babies. 1113 01:07:45,622 --> 01:07:49,408 It's because the male is unwilling to stop for directions. 1114 01:07:49,408 --> 01:07:55,682 So they spend an extra six months trying to get there because the woman's like, How do you g how do 1115 01:07:55,682 --> 01:07:56,063 Yeah. 1116 01:07:56,063 --> 01:08:02,080 An extra six months in purgatory 'cause they won't ask how to get out of Maz. 1117 01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:02,317 Well 1118 01:08:02,317 --> 01:08:06,270 that I well Arnold Van Genapp doesn't say that, but I think it's true. 1119 01:08:06,270 --> 01:08:09,430 I'm glad as two men with a podcast we can tell jokes like that. 1120 01:08:10,702 --> 01:08:14,403 But keep in mind there is an overlap with these categories again. 1121 01:08:15,324 --> 01:08:21,926 George Hansen's book, we talked about him a lot in the last episode, Trickster and the Paranormal, in the show notes, by the way. 1122 01:08:21,926 --> 01:08:30,788 Um, but he also was uh Arnold Van Gnep and and Victor Turner and Mary Douglas kind of informed him. 1123 01:08:30,788 --> 01:08:38,230 So a lot of that stuff, I kind of

read a lot of what w was related to that 'cause the Trickster and the Paranormal, if you get your hands on that book, great book. 1124 01:08:38,496 --> 01:08:46,532 Also of note our last podcast we discussed how our guest Alex Bone um and the two of us hit most of these trickster traits. 1125 01:08:46,532 --> 01:08:56,400 So if we think about which elements pertain to us, uh you know, you find that we actually are rel you know, we kind of encompass a lot of these things. 1126 01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:59,126 Um now I'm gonna you know we 1127 01:08:59,126 --> 01:09:00,971 Cover the whole spectrum between you. 1128 01:09:01,398 --> 01:09:01,618 Right. 1129 01:09:01,618 --> 01:09:11,735 So I remember and uh actually put 1130 01:09:11,735 --> 01:09:14,582 I just want everyone to know that Alex Bone is wrong. 1131 01:09:14,582 --> 01:09:16,227 Yeah, yeah. 1132 01:09:16,227 --> 01:09:18,755 No, it's i yeah. 1133 01:09:18,755 --> 01:09:19,578 Thank you. 1134 01:09:19,578 --> 01:09:21,002 Thank you, Jeremy. 1135 01:09:21,002 --> 01:09:22,550 Thank you for summing it up. 1136 01:09:22,550 --> 01:09:24,700 I'm so bringing him on for a cage fun. 1137 01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:25,480 here's the thing. 1138 01:09:25,480 --> 01:09:31,763 We I s I promised in the last episode we'd go into it more deeply, but we can't go into it more deeply. 1139 01:09:31,763 --> 01:09:35,075 We already did it's been done deep. 1140 01:09:35,075 --> 01:09:40,536 But I wanna reiterate and I want you to think about why this relates to us specifically. 1141 01:09:40,536 --> 01:09:44,753 we already went into the deep end in the final part, which was the first 1142 01:09:44,753 --> 01:09:46,214 Yeah, exactly. 1143 01:09:46,214 --> 01:09:47,995 So it did get out of order. 1144 01:09:47,995 --> 01:09:53,917 But change, transition, or simple liminality, this is where we find monsters and tricksters. 1145 01:09:53,917 --> 01:09:57,259 Instability is where we find monsters and tricks tricksters. 1146 01:09:57,259 --> 01:09:59,039 Loss of status. 1147 01:09:59,530 --> 01:10:09,905 and and and uh monster anthropology book, you from Yasmin Mushabash, she actually goes into this evolving monsters which involve with change and how the monster change it 1148 01:10:09,905 --> 01:10:10,565 through time. 1149 01:10:10,565 --> 01:10:13,356 And we've talked about this before, we've touched on it. 1150 01:10:13,710 --> 01:10:24,117 and she quotes Cohen in her book The emergence of new monsters then stands in direct correlation to the emergence of something else new that is characteristic of the 1151 01:10:24,117 --> 01:10:25,058 Zeitgeist. 1152 01:10:25,058 --> 01:10:29,682 Now that was Yasmin Musherbash but kind of channeling Jeffrey Cohen. 1153 01:10:29,682 --> 01:10:30,614 So that like 1154 01:10:30,614 --> 01:10:34,324 The zeitgeist is is the group mentality, it's like the collective consciousness. 1155 01:10:34,324 --> 01:10:35,476 It's the collective, yeah. 1156 01:10:35,476 --> 01:10:41,186 The the in I call it in ours the Scheissgeist, which is the ghost of the shit. 1157 01:10:41,186 --> 01:10:41,527 Yeah. 1158 01:10:41,527 --> 01:10:46,015 And it makes no sense, but I still think it's yeah, yeah. 1159 01:10:46,015 --> 01:10:48,308 We're part of the Scheißgeist, yeah. 1160 01:10:48,472 --> 01:10:50,456 Germany has zeitgeist, America has 1161 01:10:50,456 --> 01:10:51,126 Scheiße guys. 1162 01:10:51,126 --> 01:10:51,936 We Scheiße. 1163 01:10:51,936 --> 01:10:53,127 Yeah. 1164 01:10:53,127 --> 01:11:00,289 But something changes in a given society, and then a monster either adapts or emerges, and she attacks some beasts in their adaptations. 1165 01:11:00,289 --> 01:11:03,210 You know, it's the Kappa, we we actually talked about this. 1166 01:11:03,210 --> 01:11:05,630 I think we're going to talk about it again with the Wendigo. 1167 01:11:05,630 --> 01:11:06,710 It's evolving. 1168 01:11:06,710 --> 01:11:13,173 Because I read Lewis and Chad Lewis and Nelson's book on Wendigo, which is wonderful. 1169 01:11:13,173 --> 01:11:18,554 And they really talk about the evolving Wendigo and 1170 01:11:18,718 --> 01:11:29,609 Yasmin Mushrabash and and the and the anthropologist she discusses talks about Kappa as far as how it evolves and she mentions the Wendigo as well as something that evolves over 1171 01:11:29,609 --> 01:11:30,020 time. 1172 01:11:30,020 --> 01:11:37,917 Uh you know, so these these, you know, it gets pretty it gets pretty strange and hairy and twisty and changey. 1173 01:11:38,220 --> 01:11:45,286 The trickster is definitely one of the I'll stick with the theme, one of the darker corners of the lore that we cover here. 1174 01:11:45,286 --> 01:11:51,381 It's weird things moving around that like nobody can really put their fingers on 1175 01:11:51,758 --> 01:11:52,479 of moving parts. 1176 01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,560 Paranoia is another one that breeds paranormal stuff. 1177 01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,220 And here again, here's George Hansen. 1178 01:11:58,220 --> 01:12:00,001 He goes into paranoia in great detail. 1179 01:12:00,001 --> 01:12:02,061 We talked about that last time. 1180 01:12:03,202 --> 01:12:15,305 But in UFO UFology, intelligence agencies, paranormal, and psychic communities alike, we find this liminal subject matter kind of creating paranormal and paranoidal kind of 1181 01:12:15,305 --> 01:12:16,115 situations. 1182 01:12:16,115 --> 01:12:16,555 Yeah. 1183 01:12:16,555 --> 01:12:18,246 That kind of rise up. 1184 01:12:18,626 --> 01:12:19,346 And 1185 01:12:19,938 --> 01:12:23,522 You know, I I think we talked about Ralph Steiner and John Keel last time. 1186 01:12:23,522 --> 01:12:31,190 Those were his examples of folks that got kinda torn this belief vortex kind of overtook them a little bit. 1187 01:12:31,190 --> 01:12:33,452 But since we already went over that, not gonna go into it. 1188 01:12:33,452 --> 01:12:34,953 I said I was gonna go

in it more deeply. 1189 01:12:34,953 --> 01:12:35,894 We already kinda w 1190 01:12:35,894 --> 01:12:37,832 Yeah, if you wanna hear the end you gotta jump back to the last 1191 01:12:37,832 --> 01:12:38,732 Exactly. 1192 01:12:38,732 --> 01:12:41,364 When you get to the beginning, you gotta finish and then go back. 1193 01:12:42,685 --> 01:12:44,105 And then reflexivity. 1194 01:12:44,105 --> 01:12:45,324 I think this is a fascinating. 1195 01:12:45,324 --> 01:12:48,428 I do want to spend a little time on this one because it's fascinating. 1196 01:12:48,428 --> 01:12:52,430 Now wait, back to the other thing before we do this next one. 1197 01:12:52,950 --> 01:12:54,711 Demiurge comes to mind. 1198 01:12:54,711 --> 01:12:56,202 It's actually the demiurge. 1199 01:12:56,202 --> 01:13:07,782 You know, when we talked about uh Dragons and Dragons, the giant were well, you got demiurge from Gnostics, or you have demiurge from Neoplatonists. 1200 01:13:07,782 --> 01:13:11,785 Same kind of same idea, but kind of different variation of the theme. 1201 01:13:11,785 --> 01:13:16,879 But basically the bigger trickster we were talking about, that's the demiurge in a way. 1202 01:13:16,879 --> 01:13:25,882 That's like the god that's kind of not really got the biggest god, but the one just creating realms like this to mess with. 1203 01:13:25,882 --> 01:13:26,437 Right. 1204 01:13:26,437 --> 01:13:31,301 That's like on the demiurge level when things seem to be Nope, I want a bomb. 1205 01:13:31,301 --> 01:13:33,196 Someone's gonna think of a bomb right now. 1206 01:13:33,196 --> 01:13:33,971 Yeah. 1207 01:13:33,971 --> 01:13:35,972 Just manifestation in real time. 1208 01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:36,859 in real time. 1209 01:13:36,859 --> 01:13:45,535 Yeah, I just I was thinking 'cause that again, Patrick Harper, I'm reading some of his stuff and uh I'm reading some stuff on the Neoplatonist as well. 1210 01:13:45,535 --> 01:13:51,330 And and yeah, I want to go back and dive into Gnosticism, but we're not gonna do that right now 'cause we got to finish tricksters. 1211 01:13:51,330 --> 01:13:52,350 Okay. 1212 01:13:52,350 --> 01:13:58,275 next element up in this one I do want to go into again a little bit more 'cause reflexivity is really cool. 1213 01:13:58,275 --> 01:14:03,394 A fascinating element of Hansen's work is his coverage of reflexivity and the trickster. 1214 01:14:03,394 --> 01:14:10,100 This is when and we did this last time a little bit, when you use the instrument itself to study the nature of the thing. 1215 01:14:10,100 --> 01:14:21,098 Like if you use literary criticism to criticize writing, if you use the scientific method to study methodology of the scientific experiment, if you th use if you use if a therapist 1216 01:14:21,098 --> 01:14:23,194 analyzes themselves, it's like that. 1217 01:14:23,194 --> 01:14:27,954 If you use the tool to study the fool, it gets all fear and logan. 1218 01:14:28,381 --> 01:14:30,750

In Last Flagstaff, episode eighteen. 1219 01:14:31,352 --> 01:14:32,492 But Hansen explains it. 1220 01:14:32,492 --> 01:14:39,286 It's like in court, the uh the person who represents themselves as a fool for a client or what 1221 01:14:39,286 --> 01:14:40,347 Exactly. 1222 01:14:40,347 --> 01:14:42,809 And that fool is named Logan. 1223 01:14:42,809 --> 01:14:46,566 But but it just tracked everybody there. 1224 01:14:47,071 --> 01:14:49,013 Logan Charlie. 1225 01:14:49,013 --> 01:14:50,303 Fuck you, Logan. 1226 01:14:50,303 --> 01:14:51,754 Fuck you, Bone. 1227 01:14:51,754 --> 01:14:53,876 Who's the demiurge now? 1228 01:14:53,876 --> 01:15:03,844 I've put my hands apart. 1229 01:15:04,034 --> 01:15:04,756 Thunder Roll. 1230 01:15:04,756 --> 01:15:06,600 It was kinda wild. 1231 01:15:07,183 --> 01:15:11,253 The timing of the lightning and thunder at the beginning of this episode is crazy. 1232 01:15:13,531 --> 01:15:15,231 But Hansen explains it better. 1233 01:15:15,231 --> 01:15:27,655 He points to this use of reflexivity creating a paradox of subject and object, exploding distinctions, and quote, here's Hansen, when one is reflective, one is aware of oneself. 1234 01:15:27,655 --> 01:15:32,696 Being reflexive is a further step, one is aware of one's awareness. 1235 01:15:32,696 --> 01:15:39,426 Reflexivity is the returning of some function or process back upon itself, as in using awareness and 1236 01:15:39,426 --> 01:15:43,005 learn about awareness or using logic to study. 1237 01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,485 Exploding distinctions is what I call my farts. 1238 01:15:49,688 --> 01:15:51,053 Sorry, everybody. 1239 01:15:51,106 --> 01:15:57,869 Remember, this is what the first trickster did to create a seemingly separate consciousness back at the dawn of man. 1240 01:15:57,869 --> 01:16:01,370 Some those coyote tales echo some of that. 1241 01:16:01,490 --> 01:16:05,882 But reality gets really slippery when we measure things with its own instrument. 1242 01:16:05,882 --> 01:16:10,534 It's actually not unlike quantum where reality itself starts to break down. 1243 01:16:10,534 --> 01:16:15,156 So if you use a quantum computer to find quantum, I think you break the universe. 1244 01:16:15,156 --> 01:16:19,928 And this is precisely why I've decided not to go through with my plans to use the Mososcope to start. 1245 01:16:19,928 --> 01:16:21,580 Study the Mazosphere. 1246 01:16:21,580 --> 01:16:23,682 What does a mausoscope look for? 1247 01:16:23,682 --> 01:16:24,863 The Mazosphere. 1248 01:16:24,863 --> 01:16:25,313 Duh. 1249 01:16:25,313 --> 01:16:27,044 Okay. 1250 01:16:27,044 --> 01:16:28,024 Okay. 1251 01:16:28,024 --> 01:16:29,260 I'm just trying to explain it. 1252 01:16:29,260 --> 01:16:30,495 Is that where the tricksters live? 1253 01:16:30,495 --> 01:16:31,753 That's where the tricksters live. 1254 01:16:31,753 --> 01:16:32,062 Gotcha. 1255 01:16:32,062 --> 01:16:32,126 good. 1256 01:16:32,126 --> 01:16:42,102 That's uh the Mazasphere. 1257 01:16:42,102 --> 01:16:44,342 It's like the smelloscope from Puturama. 1258 01:16:44,342 --> 01:16:46,563 Yes, it's like a scratch and sniff. 1259 01:16:46,563 --> 01:16:48,204 A Galileo scratch and sniff. 1260 01:16:48,204 --> 01:16:49,524 What what are you doing to me? 1261 01:16:49,524 --> 01:17:00,139 oh The way Hansen explains this, I like this part. 1262 01:17:00,139 --> 01:17:02,130 Oh, you're being Mercurious. 1263 01:17:02,211 --> 01:17:03,991 Mercurious George. 1264 01:17:04,772 --> 01:17:09,686 The way Hansen explains this, it actually brings into question the whole scientific method. 1265 01:17:09,686 --> 01:17:14,808 And even the absurdity of trying to eliminate all confounding variables in a given experiment. 1266 01:17:14,808 --> 01:17:18,390 It's kind of mind blowing and depressing at the same time. 1267 01:17:18,650 --> 01:17:23,392 The way Hansen explains this, it actually brings into question the whole scientific method. 1268 01:17:23,392 --> 01:17:32,417 And even the absurdity of trying to eliminate all confounding variables in any given experiment, it's kind of mind blowing and depressing, especially if you wanted a promising 1269 01:17:32,417 --> 01:17:33,387 career at the Mazosphere. 1270 01:17:33,387 --> 01:17:35,188 Because they totally shut that down. 1271 01:17:35,188 --> 01:17:35,968 Yeah. 1272 01:17:36,216 --> 01:17:39,408 But this has happened to me with owls, and owls are just the beginning. 1273 01:17:39,408 --> 01:17:45,039 Alan Vaughn, among others, have noted that once you study synchronicities, they tend to increase. 1274 01:17:45,039 --> 01:17:46,574 Yeah and they are for me. 1275 01:17:46,574 --> 01:17:48,805 We just had one, we took a brief break. 1276 01:17:48,805 --> 01:17:52,287 And what ha what happened just say this just happened two minutes ago. 1277 01:17:52,287 --> 01:17:52,968 we're 1278 01:17:53,762 --> 01:17:55,363 We took a break, yeah, just a few minutes ago. 1279 01:17:55,363 --> 01:18:03,837 Uh and we're walking out onto the patio 'cause getting some of that fresh rain air and flagstaff and literally open the door. 1280 01:18:03,837 --> 01:18:09,679 Well, we open the door, there's a flash of light, then we step out in the thunder rolls. 1281 01:18:09,679 --> 01:18:10,200 Yeah. 1282 01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:10,850 Yeah. 1283 01:18:10,850 --> 01:18:14,034 So going through the portal, going through the transition, thunder and lightning. 1284 01:18:14,034 --> 01:18:16,397 and I t I asked you to look at that picture in the corner. 1285 01:18:16,397 --> 01:18:16,818 yeah. 1286 01:18:16,818 --> 01:18:19,522 There's lightning storm with a bear standing in it. 1287 01:18:19,522 --> 01:18:20,463 I've never noticed. 1288 01:18:20,463 --> 01:18:21,044 wow. 1289 01:18:21,044 --> 01:18:21,625 Yeah. 1290 01:18:21,625 --> 01:18:22,566 This is my house. 1291 01:18:22,566 --> 01:18:24,408 I don't never I never I didn't hang that. 1292

01:18:24,408 --> 01:18:25,099 Who hung that? 1293 01:18:25,099 --> 01:18:26,211 That's cool. 1294 01:18:26,211 --> 01:18:28,533 But I'm just saying the the the 1295 01:18:28,770 --> 01:18:31,733 This is our ninth recording location, by the way. 1296 01:18:31,733 --> 01:18:33,679 We are up to nine, number nine. 1297 01:18:33,679 --> 01:18:35,680 We are in yet a new number nine. 1298 01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:36,511 Yeah. 1299 01:18:38,104 --> 01:18:40,897 But I don't I don't know we're not gonna do that. 1300 01:18:40,897 --> 01:18:44,500 But you know, I mean let's we're not starting a sex cult. 1301 01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:45,901 We've talked about this. 1302 01:18:45,901 --> 01:18:46,522 I know. 1303 01:18:46,522 --> 01:18:49,264 I didn't it's kind of a bummer. 1304 01:18:49,264 --> 01:18:51,256 But paradox is another one. 1305 01:18:51,256 --> 01:18:53,408 But it I g back to this other piece. 1306 01:18:53,408 --> 01:18:56,231 The synchronicities are increasing for me. 1307 01:18:56,231 --> 01:19:04,258 And I've been studying this and it ties directly in the Gilligan Zyland mysteries, which actually breaks the universe and solves the riddle of everything. 1308 01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:08,730 Time at the end. 1309 01:19:08,730 --> 01:19:11,611 It is it's changed everything for me. 1310 01:19:11,611 --> 01:19:16,492 And I'm I'm actually not kidding, but it's life is weird and it gets getting weirder. 1311 01:19:16,553 --> 01:19:18,043 The other one is paradox. 1312 01:19:18,043 --> 01:19:22,154 This is the other again, we're going down the trickster list of traits. 1313 01:19:22,154 --> 01:19:23,475 Here's Hansen again. 1314 01:19:23,475 --> 01:19:28,856 Quote The trickster is a paradoxical creature and reflexivity generates paradox. 1315 01:19:28,856 --> 01:19:32,657 Paradoxes and the trickster are inextricably linked. 1316 01:19:32,657 --> 01:19:35,608 They seem to show up at portals at moments of change. 1317 01:19:35,608 --> 01:19:38,000 The monster is there right alongside of them. 1318 01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:42,043 Why is there a monster and a trickster at these crossroads? 1319 01:19:43,085 --> 01:19:52,313 Yeah, I mean, John Keel, that's was one of the examples, went down to that that flap that happened in Point Pleasant, Virginia, West Virginia. 1320 01:19:52,313 --> 01:19:53,644 It was crazy. 1321 01:19:53,644 --> 01:19:54,195 Yeah. 1322 01:19:54,195 --> 01:19:59,910 Of all the things the town kind of for a year just lit up like some kind of a paranormal beacon. 1323 01:19:59,910 --> 01:20:00,361 Yeah. 1324 01:20:00,361 --> 01:20:02,210 And everything went skaplooey. 1325 01:20:02,210 --> 01:20:04,172 Like New York City and Ghostbusters. 1326 01:20:04,172 --> 01:20:04,925 Right. 1327 01:20:04,925 --> 01:20:05,506 Exactly. 1328 01:20:05,506 --> 01:20:07,220 Tell about the Twinkie, Ray. 1329 01:20:07,224 --> 01:20:08,863 What about the Twinkie, Ray? 1330 01:20:09,390 --> 01:20:09,790 Minus. 1331 01:20:09,790 --> 01:20:10,251 Yeah. 1332 01:20:10,251 --> 01:20:16,052 uh 1333 01:20:16,052 --> 01:20:17,271 of a skyscraper or something. 1334 01:20:17,271 --> 01:20:18,252 It goes into a thing. 1335 01:20:18,252 --> 01:20:18,663 Yes. 1336 01:20:18,663 --> 01:20:18,973 Yeah. 1337 01:20:18,973 --> 01:20:20,644 We'll we'll we'll we'll get back to that. 1338 01:20:20,644 --> 01:20:21,265 Old business. 1339 01:20:21,265 --> 01:20:23,727 We'll twink we'll put the twinking old business. 1340 01:20:23,728 --> 01:20:31,615 But this is actually where this episode might break down because we are using trickster podcasters to study the trickster archetype. 1341 01:20:31,776 --> 01:20:34,682 It's just reflexivity at its finest or worst. 1342 01:20:34,682 --> 01:20:37,842 But paradoxes are major components or portals. 1343 01:20:37,842 --> 01:20:42,046 Tricksters are hanging at every one of these dang portals for some reason. 1344 01:20:42,242 --> 01:20:47,917 Carl Jung, by the way, also felt the realm of the trickster was marked by paradox and endodromial goodness. 1345 01:20:47,917 --> 01:20:50,469 He always talks about going beyond the opposites. 1346 01:20:50,469 --> 01:20:52,240 The alchemists talked about that. 1347 01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:57,685 A lot of folks talk about the going beyond dualism to get through the gate. 1348 01:20:57,685 --> 01:21:01,297 This is all in some ways very related. 1349 01:21:01,358 --> 01:21:08,444 We did communitas last time, so I'm not going to belabor that point, but this is where the marginal stuff rises up. 1350 01:21:08,444 --> 01:21:09,194 Here's Turner. 1351 01:21:09,194 --> 01:21:11,734 Spontaneous communitas is a nature. 1352 01:21:11,734 --> 01:21:13,835 In dialogue with structure. 1353 01:21:13,856 --> 01:21:15,367 He also says, dot dot dot. 1354 01:21:15,367 --> 01:21:19,539 For me, communitas emerges where social structure is not. 1355 01:21:19,620 --> 01:21:25,704 And that's from Ritual Process uh of of Victor Tur and Victor Turner. 1356 01:21:25,704 --> 01:21:34,183 So basically, wherever there's holes in society and marginalization, the trickster is the one doing being that equalizer we talked about. 1357 01:21:34,183 --> 01:21:35,044 Yeah. 1358 01:21:36,074 --> 01:21:36,574 Yeah. 1359 01:21:36,574 --> 01:21:43,871 Well no, he's knowing Okay, but we just talked about where are the tricksters of today. 1360 01:21:43,871 --> 01:21:48,925 There is this whole change, collapse, weird portal. 1361 01:21:48,925 --> 01:21:51,027 We've got a monster has has emerged. 1362 01:21:51,027 --> 01:21:55,431 Several monsters in this in this world have emerged and they're in charge of different countries. 1363 01:21:55,431 --> 01:21:57,572 Unfortunately one of them is ours. 1364 01:21:57,572 --> 01:21:58,934 But where are the tricksters? 1365 01:21:58,934 --> 01:22:01,115 That piece of it I do not know. 1366 01:22:01,115 --> 01:22:04,018 I know they're making podcasts, some of them. 1367

01:22:04,018 --> 01:22:04,502 Yep. 1368 01:22:04,502 --> 01:22:06,927 I don't know if we're changing the world the way we should. 1369 01:22:06,927 --> 01:22:10,936 But one one can make the argument though Turner's fixed societal 1370 01:22:10,936 --> 01:22:14,050 Dude, the monsters are gatekeeping the tricksters right now. 1371 01:22:14,050 --> 01:22:15,190 This is what I'm trying to get at. 1372 01:22:15,190 --> 01:22:21,918 Like you you're on to something because I wanna know and this is what I'm looking into, the energy at that gate. 1373 01:22:21,918 --> 01:22:23,479 Why are they both there? 1374 01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:24,581 What does it mean? 1375 01:22:24,581 --> 01:22:26,070 How does it tie in? 1376 01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:29,794 The monsters are literally gatekeeping the tricksters. 1377 01:22:30,456 --> 01:22:32,674 They're not letting the tricksters through the gate. 1378 01:22:32,674 --> 01:22:34,865 But the but the trick but I I don't know. 1379 01:22:34,865 --> 01:22:36,664 I mean I do in some ways. 1380 01:22:36,664 --> 01:22:40,445 Well like just content wise, like we get edited, man. 1381 01:22:40,445 --> 01:22:49,198 I my other podcast, Healthcare Uprising, we cover some controversial type topics in healthcare and I can see when YouTube censors us. 1382 01:22:49,198 --> 01:22:51,419 I can see when they suppress our information. 1383 01:22:51,419 --> 01:23:01,702 When I put out the shorts for the episode and all and all but one of them get hundreds, if not a thousand plus views really quick, and the other one gets four. 1384 01:23:01,858 --> 01:23:08,351 And then if you look if you watch that one, you know exactly why, because it's something they don't want people to see. 1385 01:23:08,770 --> 01:23:09,751 Potentially. 1386 01:23:09,751 --> 01:23:11,671 I'm I don't I don't know. 1387 01:23:11,671 --> 01:23:22,735 Well I mean what who what what is it gonna look like uh a couple years from now trying to be creative in this country and putting something into the the Mazosphere, for example. 1388 01:23:22,735 --> 01:23:24,155 They were to close that down. 1389 01:23:24,155 --> 01:23:25,456 That didn't even have a chance. 1390 01:23:25,456 --> 01:23:27,156 They closed it down, man. 1391 01:23:27,156 --> 01:23:28,227 The Mazoscope. 1392 01:23:28,227 --> 01:23:30,057 I was working on the Mazoscope. 1393 01:23:30,057 --> 01:23:31,896 I don't know where 1394 01:23:31,896 --> 01:23:33,442 Funding before we could even build the thing. 1395 01:23:33,442 --> 01:23:37,484 Well we're gonna get back to a Nancy here for a minute because uh what'd you call her? 1396 01:23:37,484 --> 01:23:44,610 Anancy, a Nancy, many Nancy's no a Nancy, this trickster spider, a nance Anancy, thank you. 1397 01:23:44,610 --> 01:23:56,018 From it but here's Pelton, and he's talking about that Ashanti trickster from Africa, quote, whose actions are so outrageous and non imitable, nevertheless reveals especially 1398 01:23:56,018 --> 01:24:02,828 when this pattern seems most darkened and dead, both the rawness and the order hidden in all of Ashanti life. 1399 01:24:02,828 --> 01:24:09,841 His stories are passage enabling structure to unfold chaos, become again communitas. 1400 01:24:09,841 --> 01:24:11,662 This is the equalizing he's talking about. 1401 01:24:11,662 --> 01:24:14,383 He talks about very beautifully and flowery. 1402 01:24:14,383 --> 01:24:16,984 And if you ever get your hand on that book, by the way, it's wonderful. 1403 01:24:16,984 --> 01:24:18,538 But you gotta decipher it. 1404 01:24:18,538 --> 01:24:23,066 I mean, he does use a lot of words that even the great flighty ma's. 1405 01:24:23,847 --> 01:24:27,899 But but that's just it's exactly what we're talking about here. 1406 01:24:27,899 --> 01:24:31,668 With these he's creating the equalizing, it's going back to the 1407 01:24:31,668 --> 01:24:36,449 small parts of the community and then when those rise up the trickster can bring them down. 1408 01:24:36,449 --> 01:24:40,438 You know, Nancy's gonna put anybody in their place at any time, no matter what. 1409 01:24:40,438 --> 01:24:41,742 It's like balance. 1410 01:24:41,742 --> 01:24:43,382 Bring bringing balance to the fore. 1411 01:24:43,382 --> 01:24:44,432 Bringing balance. 1412 01:24:44,432 --> 01:24:46,363 It's something gets too right. 1413 01:24:46,363 --> 01:24:49,164 So the trickster should be emerging right now. 1414 01:24:49,164 --> 01:24:50,824 I guess that's my point. 1415 01:24:51,645 --> 01:24:52,105 Yeah. 1416 01:24:52,105 --> 01:25:01,988 But he's describing both the societal grist for the mill and the new fertilizer, which will grow something novel and interesting someday soon, hopefully even in this country, 1417 01:25:01,988 --> 01:25:02,548 you know. 1418 01:25:02,548 --> 01:25:06,589 Next trait anti establishment, anti-authority, and anti-structure. 1419 01:25:06,670 --> 01:25:08,158 I think we talked about that. 1420 01:25:08,158 --> 01:25:14,420 What do you think about I mean, we're we're hinting on politicism here. 1421 01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:25,893 Mamdani winning mayor of New York and all of a sudden shaking up the whole system and freaking everybody out and like even his own party is kind of scared of that guy right 1422 01:25:25,893 --> 01:25:26,304 now. 1423 01:25:26,304 --> 01:25:26,634 Yeah. 1424 01:25:26,634 --> 01:25:28,144 'Cause he's actually succeeding. 1425 01:25:28,144 --> 01:25:34,796 He he ran on a bunch of stuff and he's only been in office mu like a few months and he's already making a lot of it happen. 1426 01:25:34,975 --> 01:25:40,180 He's actually doing what he said he was gonna do in a way that freaks all the other politicians out, even the one. 1427 01:25:40,180 --> 01:25:41,032 not the norm. 1428 01:25:41,032 --> 01:25:42,965 The norm is not to do anything. 1429 01:25:42,965 --> 01:25:44,632 The norm is to 1430 01:25:44,632 --> 01:25:48,830 is the trickster coming in and

shaking things up and and setting new paradigms? 1431 01:25:49,853 --> 01:25:52,718 Maybe he's the first of of the wave. 1432 01:25:53,388 --> 01:25:58,653 Well, you know, I always think of the trickers not really being in a position of power. 1433 01:25:58,716 --> 01:25:59,486 They are the ones 1434 01:25:59,486 --> 01:26:05,082 They're gonna ha well I mean if the monsters are running the place and the tricksters wanna do something about it, they're gonna have to take some 1435 01:26:05,082 --> 01:26:13,304 they've always found a way to do that, not as the as as you know, Putin versus Trump or or 1436 01:26:13,304 --> 01:26:15,882 Well he's mayor of New York, he's not president. 1437 01:26:15,882 --> 01:26:16,824 I understand that. 1438 01:26:16,824 --> 01:26:17,455 I understand that. 1439 01:26:17,455 --> 01:26:20,329 But generally they don't last long in positions of power. 1440 01:26:20,329 --> 01:26:20,569 Sure. 1441 01:26:20,569 --> 01:26:22,472 I'm not saying he's not a trickster. 1442 01:26:22,472 --> 01:26:25,656 I'm just saying I'm not I don't know at this time. 1443 01:26:26,498 --> 01:26:27,660 kind of a shape changer too. 1444 01:26:27,660 --> 01:26:33,190 You see him in his suit in the office and then you see him at the Knicks game wearing, you know, wearing regular clothes, sitting in the crowd. 1445 01:26:33,190 --> 01:26:35,083 Like he wasn't even sitting in a box at the Knicks game. 1446 01:26:35,083 --> 01:26:37,196 He was just in the stands with the people. 1447 01:26:38,139 --> 01:26:40,582 You know, like he he shifts roles too. 1448 01:26:42,750 --> 01:26:43,331 Throwing it out there. 1449 01:26:43,331 --> 01:26:43,977 Throwing it out there. 1450 01:26:43,977 --> 01:26:46,250 I'm just trying to put a little hope into it is all I can. 1451 01:26:46,250 --> 01:26:56,066 I I wanna know tricksters usually find a way to make that change without being the guy that's actually put the finger on the button. 1452 01:26:56,066 --> 01:27:00,172 I mean they're pushing another button, not the not the missiles, not the shit. 1453 01:27:00,172 --> 01:27:01,562 They're just pushing other buttons. 1454 01:27:01,562 --> 01:27:07,481 you need the the comedians and the entertainers and you know, l we need a new Lenny Bruce type. 1455 01:27:07,512 --> 01:27:08,682 Well that that's the other thing. 1456 01:27:08,682 --> 01:27:18,306 A that is just everything is devoid of essence and devoid of clarity and meaning. 1457 01:27:18,306 --> 01:27:22,528 There there is no counter movement right now of any consequence. 1458 01:27:22,528 --> 01:27:24,529 It is it's it's all scattered. 1459 01:27:24,529 --> 01:27:29,361 Yeah, it's really it's just that it really is just it seems more like an end than anything. 1460 01:27:29,361 --> 01:27:31,292 It's not gonna be any movement against. 1461 01:27:31,292 --> 01:27:33,253 It's very, very odd in my opinion. 1462 01:27:33,253 --> 01:27:36,874 'Cause usually in history there's this

other force that shows up. 1463 01:27:36,984 --> 01:27:41,096 There's also this is a theme I didn't talk about too much last time, I don't think. 1464 01:27:41,096 --> 01:27:42,496 The outsider theme. 1465 01:27:42,496 --> 01:27:52,420 There's a sense these folks who channel such energies are forever on the fringe of any group or tribe, not really card carrying members, and again when demarcations arise, the 1466 01:27:52,420 --> 01:27:54,621 trickster attacks them from all sides. 1467 01:27:54,621 --> 01:27:58,903 Groucho Marx captured this I'd never be a member of any club that would have me as a member. 1468 01:27:58,903 --> 01:27:59,684 Yeah. 1469 01:27:59,684 --> 01:28:00,704 You know. 1470 01:28:00,764 --> 01:28:05,757 But there was also that oh 1471 01:28:05,757 --> 01:28:08,486 know I would never join a club or actually make me a member. 1472 01:28:08,486 --> 01:28:28,272 But role ah reversals we talked about last time with the Heyo Koshaman and how how and transgender stuff and this fluidity and this king versus fool and the fool becomes the 1473 01:28:28,272 --> 01:28:29,132 king. 1474 01:28:29,132 --> 01:28:33,333 But I'd have Turner or Van Ganep, I I I'm it's a eluding me at the moment. 1475 01:28:33,333 --> 01:28:36,782 But uh there was a there was this ritual where the chief 1476 01:28:36,782 --> 01:28:46,417 Before he become becomes chief, he has to be the village idiot for a night, and everybody gets to pick on him and everyone gets to harass him and everyone gets to get all their 1477 01:28:46,417 --> 01:28:47,408 grievances out. 1478 01:28:47,408 --> 01:28:53,591 And he is not by d divine law, he is not allowed to r respond to that the next day when he's king. 1479 01:28:53,591 --> 01:28:55,152 He just has to take it all in. 1480 01:28:55,152 --> 01:29:05,938 This is the moment of communitas having that moment so it's probably Victor Turner, but it's that moment where the marginalized gets in their two cents and he 1481 01:29:06,318 --> 01:29:09,927 Can you imagine if we force the billionaires to be homeless for two weeks? 1482 01:29:09,927 --> 01:29:12,400 Like for resources 1483 01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:12,990 Exactly. 1484 01:29:12,990 --> 01:29:22,958 We we don't we don't do we lost so much of these important rituals of coming of age, of of ever of anything of meaning. 1485 01:29:22,958 --> 01:29:23,948 Yeah. 1486 01:29:24,419 --> 01:29:29,443 it seems to be so you know it's the meaning crisis as everyone's as everyone's talking about it. 1487 01:29:29,443 --> 01:29:36,566 But at the same time it's as it's annoying as shit to me as really as a as a as an unemployed trickster. 1488 01:29:36,566 --> 01:29:37,912 Search for meaning. 1489 01:29:38,178 --> 01:29:43,480 The quote from VW Turner captures both Paradox and the trickster roll reversal business. 1490 01:29:43,480 --> 01:29:49,803 Quote, cognitively, nothing underlines regularity so well as absurdity or paradox. 1491 01:29:49,803 --> 01:29:56,466 Emotionally, nothing satisfies as much as extravagant or temporarily permitted illicit behavior. 1492 01:29:56,466 --> 01:30:03,468 Rituals of status reversal accommodate both aspects by making the low high and the high low. 1493 01:30:03,468 --> 01:30:05,979 This was the red hour in Star Trek's Return of the Archons. 1494 01:30:05,979 --> 01:30:07,810 This is the movie The Purge. 1495 01:30:07,874 --> 01:30:11,281 You know, this is the fool putting the king in his place. 1496 01:30:11,281 --> 01:30:15,319 This is what Patrick and SpongeBob used to call opposite day. 1497 01:30:15,319 --> 01:30:16,630 Do you remember that? 1498 01:30:18,054 --> 01:30:19,717 And be for Vendetta. 1499 01:30:19,717 --> 01:30:20,322 uh 1500 01:30:20,322 --> 01:30:22,418 Vendetta today with the whole Alex Bone. 1501 01:30:22,418 --> 01:30:23,539 No. 1502 01:30:25,005 --> 01:30:27,991 But it's that King and Pauper stuff ba basically. 1503 01:30:27,991 --> 01:30:28,752 Yeah. 1504 01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,382 Robin Hood, we were talking about Robin Hood too. 1505 01:30:31,507 --> 01:30:33,234 He was king of the pop. 1506 01:30:33,918 --> 01:30:36,267 and Robin Hood ties into the Gilligan Island. 1507 01:30:36,267 --> 01:30:37,410 We're gonna get into this. 1508 01:30:37,410 --> 01:30:39,321 That's two stoned. 1509 01:30:39,321 --> 01:30:42,052 Don't you know we we're behind recording. 1510 01:30:42,052 --> 01:30:49,277 This is your fault, and I don't want you to spoil because you jump ahead and now we haven't recorded, and you're gonna spoil the Gilligan Island mystery. 1511 01:30:49,277 --> 01:30:50,437 That's just like you. 1512 01:30:50,437 --> 01:30:51,578 Gilligan 1513 01:30:52,938 --> 01:30:54,741 I we I do have the hat. 1514 01:30:55,258 --> 01:30:56,818 I have the bucket hat. 1515 01:30:56,818 --> 01:30:56,968 blue. 1516 01:30:56,968 --> 01:30:57,600 Well done. 1517 01:30:57,600 --> 01:30:58,272 You know. 1518 01:30:58,272 --> 01:31:00,497 That's not a coincidence. 1519 01:31:00,497 --> 01:31:01,840 That's not a coincidence. 1520 01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:02,764 uh 1521 01:31:02,764 --> 01:31:06,041 No, I just realized I'm wearing a Gilligan hat after all this. 1522 01:31:06,314 --> 01:31:07,595 Kinda freaks me out. 1523 01:31:07,595 --> 01:31:18,769 Here's one more Victor Turner quote Communitas breaks in through the interstices of structure and liminality, the edges of structure and marginality, and from beneath 1524 01:31:18,769 --> 01:31:20,900 structure in inferiority. 1525 01:31:20,900 --> 01:31:31,104 Is almost everywhere held to be sacred or holy, possibly because it transgresses or dissolves the norms that govern structured and institutionalized relationships and is 1526 01:31:31,104 --> 01:31:35,466 accompanied by experiences of unprecedented potency. 1527 01:31:36,386 --> 01:31:44,949 And I I'm just saying like when you think about the portals and you think about like we the way I saw, and I do want to

just say it it's a little different than you, I saw a 1528 01:31:44,949 --> 01:31:48,770 flash of light, you opened the door, we stepped out, heard thunder. 1529 01:31:49,410 --> 01:31:59,353 During these portal moments, there's this change and there's something that happens at this change, and it seems to be coming up from under, or Nancy spins down from the top. 1530 01:31:59,353 --> 01:32:03,394 There seems to be something going on almost more with the frame. 1531 01:32:03,512 --> 01:32:04,995 than going to the other place. 1532 01:32:04,995 --> 01:32:06,769 There's something in that change. 1533 01:32:06,769 --> 01:32:10,517 I think the tricksters and the monsters are the frame of that portal. 1534 01:32:10,517 --> 01:32:12,822 And I don't know what they're doing there. 1535 01:32:12,822 --> 01:32:14,164 They're like the two 1536 01:32:14,530 --> 01:32:17,462 The two posts of the jam holding the thing up. 1537 01:32:17,462 --> 01:32:17,993 Right. 1538 01:32:17,993 --> 01:32:22,633 Or the or the ki or the arch, you know, or stone. 1539 01:32:23,637 --> 01:32:24,670 Yeah. 1540 01:32:24,670 --> 01:32:30,516 Well, it's like in the never ending story, those two st s big statues he has to walk between. 1541 01:32:31,377 --> 01:32:32,343 Trickster and 1542 01:32:32,343 --> 01:32:32,875 Exactly. 1543 01:32:32,875 --> 01:32:34,445 We do portal guardians, those are 1544 01:32:34,445 --> 01:32:35,236 should 1545 01:32:37,512 --> 01:32:39,994 Jewish space lasers, exactly. 1546 01:32:43,662 --> 01:32:45,607 That's what I get for going political. 1547 01:32:47,278 --> 01:32:48,394 See what we did? 1548 01:32:48,394 --> 01:32:49,858 We broke this is trickster. 1549 01:32:49,858 --> 01:32:52,655 No rules. 1550 01:32:52,655 --> 01:32:54,918 We played with it till we broke it. 1551 01:32:56,745 --> 01:33:04,118 But remember back to the X Von thing, intruder in the dirt, they come up through these other parts of the portal that I don't understand. 1552 01:33:04,118 --> 01:33:07,179 And Exactly. 1553 01:33:07,179 --> 01:33:08,120 Yeah. 1554 01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:09,592 Well how is it like tremors? 1555 01:33:09,592 --> 01:33:11,527 The worms coming up out of the ground. 1556 01:33:11,527 --> 01:33:13,381 The monsters coming up out of nowhere. 1557 01:33:13,381 --> 01:33:13,812 Yeah. 1558 01:33:13,812 --> 01:33:14,712 From the underworld. 1559 01:33:14,712 --> 01:33:17,571 We really do need to do a worm episode. 1560 01:33:18,722 --> 01:33:20,348 Speaking of Beetlejuice. 1561 01:33:21,137 --> 01:33:23,065 Once twice, don't say it again. 1562 01:33:23,544 --> 01:33:27,695 Then, of course, we got clown, gesture, and fool, and the humor piece of it. 1563 01:33:27,695 --> 01:33:29,036 We're not going to go into that. 1564 01:33:29,036 --> 01:33:30,676 Tied into our lives, though. 1565 01:33:30,676 --> 01:33:34,977 Um, here's m here's uh Clelin from The Messengers. 1566 01:33:34,977 --> 01:33:37,258 We'll do one for the owl guy.

1567 01:33:37,258 --> 01:33:42,859 Quote: Many native traditions held clown and tricksters as essential to any contact with the sacred. 1568 01:33:42,859 --> 01:33:50,221 Humans had to have tricksters within the most sacred ceremonies for fear that they forget the sacred comes through. 1569 01:33:50,221 --> 01:33:52,622 Upset, reversal, and surprise. 1570 01:33:52,694 --> 01:33:56,777 Tricksters in most native traditions is essential to creation. 1571 01:33:57,422 --> 01:33:57,783 There you go. 1572 01:33:57,783 --> 01:33:58,850 That's what you're just talking about. 1573 01:33:58,850 --> 01:34:00,457 We we lost the way. 1574 01:34:00,556 --> 01:34:07,251 Yeah, but that we've got this this con we're we're the portal people and the monsters are the portal people. 1575 01:34:07,252 --> 01:34:17,920 And everybody else is just on one side or th or the other and th the change which will do you good, according to Sheryl Crow, we gotta remember that that Heraclitus stuff a little 1576 01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:18,110 bit. 1577 01:34:18,110 --> 01:34:20,150 We're we're we're losing our way here. 1578 01:34:20,150 --> 01:34:23,475 It's like the age of Ultron, but who gets to open the portal? 1579 01:34:24,570 --> 01:34:26,341 The invasion's coming. 1580 01:34:26,341 --> 01:34:29,205 It's just a matter of who gets to open the portal first. 1581 01:34:31,594 --> 01:34:32,344 I think we'll get 1582 01:34:32,344 --> 01:34:37,158 need to open the trickster portal to combat the monster portal. 1583 01:34:37,158 --> 01:34:42,903 Well I we have to reverse the flow of the portal so it goes to the other porality polarity. 1584 01:34:42,903 --> 01:34:43,844 Jesus. 1585 01:34:43,844 --> 01:34:45,404 Polarity. 1586 01:34:45,986 --> 01:34:48,558 Cause right now it's you said there they're two pillars, right? 1587 01:34:48,558 --> 01:34:51,180 It's now I'm thinking of it like almost like a battery. 1588 01:34:51,180 --> 01:34:54,652 There's the positive and the negative, positiva, negativa. 1589 01:34:55,373 --> 01:35:00,437 And right now the the negativa monsters are controlling the flow. 1590 01:35:00,438 --> 01:35:01,568 We need to 1591 01:35:01,858 --> 01:35:09,103 bring it back toward the positive to rebalance things and the tricksters are the ones who have the pos can bring back the positive flow. 1592 01:35:09,924 --> 01:35:12,046 In that portal that they share. 1593 01:35:12,626 --> 01:35:16,749 You're not wrong, but I do want to say you've got these polls. 1594 01:35:16,749 --> 01:35:21,392 It's actually more not about this one it's about transcending. 1595 01:35:21,392 --> 01:35:25,875 So some it's like when Joker says we need to bring it out through a whole new door. 1596 01:35:25,875 --> 01:35:28,037 It's doing something vertical. 1597 01:35:28,037 --> 01:35:38,574 It's going beyond and and what we talked about in the beginning with an antidromia and and the and the Vedic component to it, advidante 1598 01:35:41,378 --> 01:35:46,754 Those ones are about detention of opposites and going beyond. 1599 01:35:46,754 --> 01:35:50,559 And and in a way it isn't about going rushing to the other side. 1600 01:35:50,559 --> 01:35:53,818 there's good, we gotta be a little worse. 1601 01:35:53,818 --> 01:35:57,246 It really is bringing it out, as a joker says, a whole new door. 1602 01:35:57,246 --> 01:35:58,047 Whole new door. 1603 01:35:58,047 --> 01:36:02,190 And that's where the trickster is involved, that's where the monster is involved. 1604 01:36:02,190 --> 01:36:05,135 I mean sometimes you gotta burn the house down before you can put in a new door. 1605 01:36:05,135 --> 01:36:06,936 That's what's happening 1606 01:36:06,936 --> 01:36:10,299 that seems to be what's happening right now. 1607 01:36:11,241 --> 01:36:12,319 I'm not arguing with that. 1608 01:36:12,319 --> 01:36:19,688 mean according to Plato, we've gone through what, five other civilizations before this one that have built up and collapsed. 1609 01:36:21,091 --> 01:36:23,112 The sixth rendition, man. 1610 01:36:23,790 --> 01:36:34,957 If you talk about the Yugas and and Vedic stuff, if you talk about the Greek ages, everything is pointing towards these cyclic times and these beginning and ends, these 1611 01:36:34,957 --> 01:36:47,694 doors and everything points to and actually I don't want to give away the Gilligan Island mystery, but that was part of my last epiphany is that this is this is gonna we're gonna 1612 01:36:47,694 --> 01:36:50,744 be witnessing something in the next couple of years. 1613 01:36:50,744 --> 01:36:52,420 The end of the world as we know it. 1614 01:36:52,716 --> 01:36:53,866 And I feel fine. 1615 01:36:53,866 --> 01:36:54,722 I feel great. 1616 01:36:54,722 --> 01:36:57,036 You know, 'cause we're doing what we like. 1617 01:36:57,279 --> 01:36:58,031 Yeah. 1618 01:36:58,031 --> 01:36:59,896 You guys, I don't know what to say. 1619 01:36:59,896 --> 01:37:01,549 Hope it's working out for you. 1620 01:37:01,549 --> 01:37:03,603 Miles and I just riding the wave. 1621 01:37:03,754 --> 01:37:04,635 Wave, man. 1622 01:37:04,635 --> 01:37:08,348 That's what Jack Cornfield said of his big waves coming, learn how to surf. 1623 01:37:08,348 --> 01:37:09,179 Yeah. 1624 01:37:09,179 --> 01:37:10,279 You know. 1625 01:37:10,420 --> 01:37:13,122 But paranormal and magical abilities are in there. 1626 01:37:13,122 --> 01:37:14,524 We're not going to go into all this. 1627 01:37:14,524 --> 01:37:16,165 I do want to some point. 1628 01:37:16,165 --> 01:37:18,894 Entrails and scatological and nasty bitches. 1629 01:37:18,894 --> 01:37:21,890 Why did I Exactly? 1630 01:37:21,890 --> 01:37:24,072 The entrails come in it, but we did it in the Philippines. 1631 01:37:24,072 --> 01:37:30,998 There was all the entrails, all these monsters, the scatological piece for tricksters, but their monsters are also. 1632 01:37:30,998 --> 01:37:32,909 wanna eat your liver and your

entrail. 1633 01:37:32,909 --> 01:37:35,160 They wanna eat those parts. 1634 01:37:35,541 --> 01:37:39,843 the Manangal and all the Philippine ones we talk spear finger. 1635 01:37:40,984 --> 01:37:47,148 There's all these creatures that are much more in interested in those pieces of it. 1636 01:37:47,148 --> 01:37:50,460 And there's a scatological component to the trickster that 1637 01:37:52,184 --> 01:38:02,744 Paranormal and magical abilities, magical and shapeshifting abilities surface from within the complex of the monster shaman trickster complex, or I call MST four thousand. 1638 01:38:02,744 --> 01:38:03,204 Why? 1639 01:38:03,204 --> 01:38:03,694 Nice. 1640 01:38:03,694 --> 01:38:05,406 Because MST three thousand was taken. 1641 01:38:05,406 --> 01:38:05,946 Yeah. 1642 01:38:05,946 --> 01:38:08,288 Fucking M thousand. 1643 01:38:08,288 --> 01:38:09,079 Exactly. 1644 01:38:09,079 --> 01:38:16,636 You're gonna call But we have related us files as paranormal events seem to be increasing around our group a little bit. 1645 01:38:16,636 --> 01:38:19,264 Hansen covers this and we covered it last time. 1646 01:38:19,264 --> 01:38:24,781 Increasing paranoia, synchronicities, paranormal deep dive, sequencing. 1647 01:38:24,781 --> 01:38:25,596 charts. 1648 01:38:25,596 --> 01:38:27,800 My synchronicities have been off the charts. 1649 01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:29,400 Yeah, I know the last couple of years. 1650 01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:37,013 And and please document them and tie them into what's happening because mine are documented and they're going to be tied into some of these things. 1651 01:38:37,013 --> 01:38:45,065 I didn't want to do that, but the reflexivity piece of it and the quantum piece of it and the psyche and the matter piece of it, you can't separate yourself and watch from a 1652 01:38:45,065 --> 01:38:47,075 distance and study monsters. 1653 01:38:47,216 --> 01:38:52,707 You the abyss stare it's the old cliche, the abyss stares back. 1654 01:38:52,707 --> 01:38:56,118 And it does there you go. 1655 01:38:57,398 --> 01:39:00,173 You know, I create chaos, I don't succumb to it. 1656 01:39:00,173 --> 01:39:01,426 Wednesday Adams. 1657 01:39:01,426 --> 01:39:01,814 Yeah. 1658 01:39:01,814 --> 01:39:03,562 I force creation to my will. 1659 01:39:04,346 --> 01:39:06,388 Very Wednesday Adams of you. 1660 01:39:06,388 --> 01:39:11,613 Twins and Double Ganger are another uh trope for this, by the way. 1661 01:39:11,613 --> 01:39:18,439 There's endless ones we're just you know, we're gonna have to kind of I think we're gonna have to wrap this up a little bit. 1662 01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:19,140 Yeah. 1663 01:39:19,140 --> 01:39:23,834 But Lewis and Hyde and George Hansen, by the way, mad cujos to those two. 1664 01:39:23,834 --> 01:39:25,645 Those were two of my Pelton. 1665 01:39:26,835 --> 01:39:28,742 Pelton, another cuj just. 1666 01:39:30,230 --> 01:39:31,217 Good boy. 1667 01:39:33,718 --> 01:39:38,850 did appreciate all the trickster books that went into this, for sure. 1668 01:39:38,850 --> 01:39:39,574 Okay. 1669 01:39:39,574 --> 01:39:40,478 I know I need a drink. 1670 01:39:40,478 --> 01:39:43,642 Can we go get a drink and wrap this up next time in the first part that comes last 1671 01:39:43,642 --> 01:39:57,423 Yeah, and you know, I I have to say we're gonna bring this all home next time and then when the trickster ends, all all we're gonna get to the segments exactly, but then all 1672 01:39:57,423 --> 01:40:07,000 this a trickster energy did accidentally make me solve the riddles of the universe, which I'll be sharing with you during the Gilligan's Island Mysteries. 1673 01:40:07,001 --> 01:40:08,748 They were solved. 1674 01:40:08,748 --> 01:40:15,356 No, do you remember the side trail I wasn't as happy with the Gilligan Island one because it was seven deadly sins, but how could he be Satan? 1675 01:40:15,356 --> 01:40:17,748 I just did a side trail on in Gilligan. 1676 01:40:18,109 --> 01:40:20,532 I went into it and I didn't mean to. 1677 01:40:20,532 --> 01:40:26,208 It was just uh trickster energy took me on this th was supposed to be a three hour tour. 1678 01:40:26,208 --> 01:40:29,862 Or it's the steps toward realisation that you're on. 1679 01:40:30,604 --> 01:40:34,517 Yeah, but it's so dumb, but it's so b important. 1680 01:40:34,517 --> 01:40:37,760 It's so both it's so trickster. 1681 01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:43,284 It's just like no, it's it's just my revelation. 1682 01:40:43,284 --> 01:40:48,318 But but No, I I think it is important and ridiculous at the same time. 1683 01:40:48,318 --> 01:40:50,158 And I think that's what trickster energy is. 1684 01:40:50,158 --> 01:40:53,264 I don't think that's what the this entire podcast is. 1685 01:40:53,466 --> 01:40:55,208 Silly but important. 1686 01:40:55,711 --> 01:40:56,092 Alright. 1687 01:40:56,092 --> 01:41:00,620 We'll see you next time for the first part of the which is the last part of this trilogy, everybody. 1688 01:41:00,620 --> 01:41:04,585 No, it's the fourth, it's the third it's the it's a rap. 1689 01:41:36,577 --> 01:41:37,574 Sunda. 1690 01:41:41,886 --> 01:41:44,096 Shut up!