Cleared for Takeoff: Life, Stress, and the Skies with an Air Traffic Controller의 전체 녹취록

runway, and they will clear you for takeoff. 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:37.980 Uh, once you get airborne, then you'll talk to a controller that is in charge of departures out of that airport. 00:05:38.189 --> 00:05:46.259 Typically, it's 40 mile radius of the airport up to 18,000, 20,000 feet above ground. 00:05:47.389 --> 00:05:54.350 And they'll climb you up and put you on course, turn you towards your destination, and separate you from everything else that's going on in that airspace. 00:05:54.689 --> 00:06:07.089 Once you get to a higher altitude, they'll switch you to another controller that is part of the en route center, which there's a number of those around the country that work the, the aircraft in between departure and arrival airport. 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:19.509 And as you go through, you know, all the different centers, you go through different sectors, you end up in LA, and then on your descent you'll talk to a controller that's similar to what you did in Denver. 00:06:20.089 --> 00:06:24.329 They will descend you, line you up, uh, on the final approach course. 00:06:24.329 --> 00:06:29.870 You'll have a second controller that will do that, actually, and then once you get close to the airport, they'll switch you to the tower. 00:06:29.870 --> 00:06:33.089 The tower controller in charge of that runway will clear you to land. 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:34.290 You land. 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:36.779 Once you exit the runway, you talk to the ground controller again. 00:06:36.779 --> 00:06:42.029 So between Denver and LA, you may talk to 15, 20 controllers. 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:51.370 Uh, so each facility has a different, you know, job, a different type of schedule, a different responsibility. 00:06:51.470 --> 00:07:02.300 Uh, so I worked in the approach control, which was the facility that you would talk to after you're airborne from the airport or when you're coming in to land before you go to the tower. 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:20.439 Uh, those shifts were typically eight hours, and we would work a position for maybe an hour and a half, no more than two hours at a time, and then get a break, typically 20 minutes to 30-minute break time, and then come back and you do it again. 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:29.689 And, um, as air traffic flows in and out of the airport, sometimes you get a busy position, sometimes you're sitting there not working very hard at all. 00:07:29.689 --> 00:07:33.379 But, um, it was, it was straight eight hours. 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:41.279 And when I worked, we only had eight hours between our shifts, so if I got off at 10 o'clock at night, I might have to be back at six o'clock in the morning. 00:07:41.290 --> 00:07:43.120 It, it was- Yeah it was hard. 00:07:43.170 --> 00:07:49.009 Again, you get home at, at 11:00, 11:30 and, and you're still kind of wired up a little bit. 00:07:49.009 --> 00:07:54.980 And I may have gotten to sleep by 12:30, 1:00 o'clock, but then the alarm goes off at 5:00 and I'm back at work at 6:00. 00:07:54.980 --> 00:07:58.350 And, and, uh, yeah, it can be difficult at times. 00:07:59.329 --> 00:08:00.180 They've changed that now. 00:08:00.230 --> 00:08:11.959 They've realized that obviously sleep deprivation is not good for, for a human being, and so they've, they've modified the, the schedule that they work and, and the allowable hours in between have changed. 00:08:12.420 --> 00:08:18.769 So I'm not sure what that is now, but I know they've, they've updated it because of, of some, uh, studies that have been done 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:31.050 But I remember you, you would do two days, two second shifts, and then one overnight shift, and that's where it got real difficult. 00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:31.680 Yeah. 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.830 It, uh, and not every facility is that way. 00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:37.330 It, it, it really is dependent upon what the, uh, facility wants to do. 00:08:37.330 --> 00:08:43.690 Some, some will work a week of day shifts, and then the next week it'll be a week of night shifts, and then maybe a week of mid shifts. 00:08:43.690 --> 00:08:46.700 That was a generic way of looking at it. 00:08:46.700 --> 00:08:58.990 But, so yeah, there was two quick turns where you had, had basically eight hours in between shifts, and you had to figure out how to rest, how to, you know, deal with the, the lack of sleep sometimes. 00:08:59.659 --> 00:09:01.769 So coffee was a friend, that's for sure. 00:09:03.419 --> 00:09:03.440 Yeah. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:11.990 A- and you know, one of the biggest things, uh, that I'm sure when people, when you tell people you're an air traffic controller, and they ask,"How do you handle the stress?" So- 00:09:15.518 --> 00:09:22.488 You know, um, yeah, and, and I will say stress is, is in everything we do. 00:09:22.488 --> 00:09:25.638 I mean, you, you wrote a book about stress while you're driving, right? 00:09:25.638 --> 00:09:33.868 So stress can happen anytime, anywhere, and, uh, it's, it-- you have to adapt as a controller. 00:09:34.567 --> 00:09:43.158 Um, you know, people say,"Well, aren't you worried about all those people's lives in your hands?" It's like, y- you can't, you can't do that. 00:09:43.158 --> 00:09:45.327 You can't focus on that because that would drive you nuts. 00:09:45.327 --> 00:09:46.217 It did drive me nuts. 00:09:46.238 --> 00:10:00.248 When I first got in when I was 22, 23, I remember I was driving to work a few times and, and thoughts in my head were,"Well, what happens if I screw up today and I kill 200 people?" And you can't, you can't approach it that way. 00:10:00.418 --> 00:10:05.817 Um, and when people do, like I did, um, my blood pressure was very high. 00:10:05.878 --> 00:10:07.128 Again, I was 22, 23. 00:10:07.128 --> 00:10:09.607 My blood pressure was like 170 over 120. 00:10:10.298 --> 00:10:15.288 Um, and it just, y- yeah, you had to have a different mindset. 00:10:15.418 --> 00:10:23.567 And eventually I got to the point where-- And, well, and

again, part of the, part of the stress too is, is not having, um, confidence in your ability. 00:10:24.238 --> 00:10:33.977 Uh, I think in any, in many jobs that's part of the issue as well, is that, um, you have different, well, you have different levels of ability. 00:10:33.977 --> 00:10:36.998 If you're really good at your job, then the stress level is lower. 00:10:36.998 --> 00:10:40.548 If you're not so good, then the stress level goes up. 00:10:40.967 --> 00:10:42.008 And, um- 00:10:42.548 --> 00:10:44.118 Some people don't make it because of that stress. 00:10:44.288 --> 00:10:44.898 Exactly. 00:10:44.957 --> 00:10:46.048 It bothers them too much. 00:10:46.048 --> 00:10:49.148 They, you know, yeah, it just happens. 00:10:49.278 --> 00:10:57.943 Um, but, uh, for me, I, I stopped thinking about What was in the airplanes and just started looking at it. 00:10:58.183 --> 00:10:59.124 For me, it was a puzzle. 00:10:59.374 --> 00:11:05.303 Every day it was a puzzle, every hour it was a puzzle, every five minutes it was a puzzle that I was trying to solve and put the pieces together. 00:11:05.783 --> 00:11:10.144 Other controllers, they would look at it more as a, an art project in a way. 00:11:10.144 --> 00:11:12.683 They, they wanted to create a pretty picture kinda thing. 00:11:13.484 --> 00:11:27.464 Um, but in the end it was mostly were you able to do your job in a safe way and feel confident that you could do it over and over again, so. 00:11:28.994 --> 00:11:32.984 Well, I think we used to say this, but, um,'cause that confidence, right, part. 00:11:33.323 --> 00:11:39.244 In a way, and I think you told me this maybe I made it up, but in a way you have to be a little cocky. 00:11:40.553 --> 00:11:45.754 Um, y- you have to have a certain level of, of confidence. 00:11:45.793 --> 00:11:53.354 You can call it arrogance or cockiness or whatever, but, um, uh, yeah, I mean, you, a- again, you have to be sure of yourself. 00:11:53.354 --> 00:11:56.323 You have to be sure of what you're doing, what you're saying, how you're doing it. 00:11:57.053 --> 00:11:59.484 Um, it's not that we don't make mistakes. 00:11:59.614 --> 00:12:00.864 Every controller makes a mistake. 00:12:00.874 --> 00:12:03.634 If they say they never made a mistake, they're, they're lying to you because... 00:12:03.913 --> 00:12:06.394 And a mistake is, you know, a relative term. 00:12:06.394 --> 00:12:10.953 It, it, it's, there's those little mistakes that are okay, and there's the big mistakes that aren't, right? 00:12:11.464 --> 00:12:16.413 But, um, you learn from the mistakes, and you go on. 00:12:16.504 --> 00:12:27.124 And some people couldn't learn from their mistakes, and that makes it more difficult'cause they continually make the same mistake over and over again bec- and eventually it just, it becomes too stressful for them. 00:12:27.124 --> 00:12:33.333 But, um, there's def- definitely a level of, of- Arrogance. 00:12:33.573 --> 00:12:35.063 I'll say, just say it's arrogance. 00:12:35.063 --> 00:12:36.283 Or you, or you, you can't do the job. 00:12:36.783 --> 00:12:36.903 Um, so- 00:12:36.923 --> 00:12:45.724 Well, yeah, you, you, you, you, you have to know that, that, you know, you're basically in charge of the situation, and, and what you do produces that outcome. 00:12:46.344 --> 00:12:55.354 And if you don't do the job right, then you don't produce a good outcome, and you just have to have, have that knowledge in your head that I can do this. 00:12:55.423 --> 00:12:55.894 I can do this. 00:12:55.923 --> 00:12:58.833 No matter what they throw to me, I can make this work, and I will make it work. 00:12:59.203 --> 00:13:01.543 May not be mistake-free, but I will make it work. 00:13:02.214 --> 00:13:02.624 So. 00:13:03.433 --> 00:13:06.403 So walk us through if you make a mistake. 00:13:06.403 --> 00:13:13.933 And, um, I know we've, I've dealt with this when you would call me and say,"I got 14 days." Um, so 00:13:13.943 --> 00:13:15.244 you make a- We won't go down that path. 00:13:17.114 --> 00:13:21.594 You, you make a mistake, and maybe a pilot calls and say, a- and complains. 00:13:21.604 --> 00:13:25.683 W- like, walk me through, um, a mistake. 00:13:25.844 --> 00:13:29.774 There's, uh, there's different, different things depending on the mistake. 00:13:29.774 --> 00:13:34.203 And, and it may be that the pilot's just calling with a question, say, you know,"This happened to me. 00:13:34.203 --> 00:13:42.403 What, what was going on?" And, and, uh, if you're still working position, the supervisor would come over and ask you about it if, if, uh, you remember it. 00:13:43.043 --> 00:13:45.313 Um, what was the situation? 00:13:45.413 --> 00:13:46.533 Why did you do this? 00:13:46.533 --> 00:13:47.203 Why did you do that? 00:13:47.634 --> 00:13:55.583 And if it's, uh, you know, elevated, if it's a really bad mistake, if it gets elevated, then they'll, they'll pull, uh, the recordings, listen to the recordings. 00:13:55.583 --> 00:14:01.024 They also have, um, replay available for everything that was on your display at the time. 00:14:01.943 --> 00:14:04.964 Um, they have alarms. 00:14:04.964 --> 00:14:12.783 They have ways of tracking the information, telling you that you lost separation here, or you did barely make, have separation. 00:14:12.994 --> 00:14:15.903 Um, different, different levels of separation, too. 00:14:15.964 --> 00:14:17.923 Um, I mean, there's visual separation. 00:14:18.053 --> 00:14:24.874 Sometimes, um, you're using that instead of the required three miles or whatever that you needed. 00:14:24.894 --> 00:14:30.624 But, um, yeah, when there's a mistake, it's, it's, it's not always a big deal. 00:14:30.984 --> 00:14:31.333 You know? 00:14:31.344 --> 00:14:39.984 It may be a misunderstanding in a way, but, um, lean- you have to, uh, have to understand you will make a mistake. 00:14:40.644 --> 00:14:42.524 It's just part of the job. 00:14:44.114 --> 00:14:44.413 Yeah. 00:14:44.453 -->

00:14:46.553 Um, and you have a recording of yourself. 00:14:46.693 --> 00:14:46.724 Sure. 00:14:47.453 --> 00:14:49.124 Um, do you wanna play that? 00:14:49.124 --> 00:14:51.703 Um- This is what it sounds... 00:14:52.014 --> 00:14:54.203 This is, I mean, it's amazing. 00:14:55.153 --> 00:15:00.604 I, I feel like he's, uh, speaking a whole different language, and it's so fast. 00:15:00.933 --> 00:15:02.903 I don't know if it's a different language, but yeah. 00:15:02.933 --> 00:15:05.153 I mean, there's times when you get busy and, and you're... 00:15:05.413 --> 00:15:09.224 It's, it's not always that way, but, um, we'll see what this sounds like. 00:15:09.844 --> 00:15:10.624 See if you can hear it. 00:15:14.861 --> 00:15:17.142 Edex, uh, 521, gonna maintain 1-1000. 00:15:17.341 --> 00:15:18.621 Almost there, but Edex 521. 00:15:18.782 --> 00:15:19.802 Clear three and four, Charlie Fox. 00:15:19.802 --> 00:15:20.292 I have approach. 00:15:20.302 --> 00:15:21.532 Plan the outlast run three five right. 00:15:21.532 --> 00:15:22.751 So you have to go back there. 00:15:24.501 --> 00:15:27.711 Clear plan for that one, three five, right, and we have, um, two X. 00:15:27.932 --> 00:15:28.142 Thanks. 00:15:28.152 --> 00:15:28.971 Clear four Charlie Fox. 00:15:28.971 --> 00:15:29.111 Right. 00:15:29.111 --> 00:15:30.192 So maintain 1-5000. 00:15:30.192 --> 00:15:31.611 Denver altimeter two niner six two. 00:15:31.611 --> 00:15:31.682 Niner one five, two niner six two. 00:15:31.682 --> 00:15:36.902 Edex 521 heading one seven- 00:15:37.282 --> 00:15:37.572 Right. 00:15:37.611 --> 00:15:40.711 Well, that's a- Yeah taste of what it sounds like. 00:15:40.822 --> 00:15:43.542 And, and, and people can, can listen to some of this too. 00:15:43.542 --> 00:15:47.912 There's, there's, uh, websites that they can join and actually listen to traffic. 00:15:47.912 --> 00:15:52.871 I, uh, it's kind of fun in a way, but, uh, FlightRadar24 is one of them. 00:15:53.631 --> 00:16:01.831 Uh, you may have to join the, uh, something, get a subscription or whatever to listen to it, but you can actually listen to controllers. 00:16:02.032 --> 00:16:09.572 Uh, used to be United had a, had a channel when you would plug your headset into the armrest, and you could select different channels. 00:16:09.572 --> 00:16:14.672 They had a channel where you could listen to the pilot controller communications, and it is, it-- to me, it's interesting. 00:16:14.672 --> 00:16:18.032 Obviously, I lived it, so, um, still enjoy it. 00:16:19.142 --> 00:16:19.581 Yeah. 00:16:19.682 --> 00:16:20.042 Okay. 00:16:20.292 --> 00:16:24.991 Do you have a day that you can say,"This was my worst day that I've ever worked at the 00:16:27.792 --> 00:16:32.081 air traffic?" Uh, my worst days, not just a day, uh, 25 years. 00:16:32.101 --> 00:16:35.091 Uh, you know, there are things that, that you did that you remember. 00:16:35.312 --> 00:16:36.442 I, I'll just put it that way. 00:16:36.591 --> 00:16:39.221 Th-

there's, there's certain things that happen that you never forget. 00:16:39.871 --> 00:16:43.792 Uh, eh, which is good, because again, that's part of the learning process. 00:16:43.822 --> 00:16:47.711 You make a mistake, and, and you, you learn from it, and you don't do it again. 00:16:48.282 --> 00:16:48.662 Yeah. 00:16:48.861 --> 00:16:49.351 Okay. 00:16:49.721 --> 00:16:59.822 Um, about how many airplanes do you, at, at the very highest, um, travel time, how many airplanes would you work in a shift? 00:17:00.101 --> 00:17:02.152 Like you said, 20 per minute, so you're on? 00:17:02.251 --> 00:17:06.000 Um- That's hard to say. 00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:17.089 Um, I, I mean, um, in an hour at, uh, DIA, we could run upwards of 90 aircraft, 90 arrivals in an hour. 00:17:17.089 --> 00:17:22.769 If I was working this position, you split that in half, so in an hour I'd work 45 arrivals maybe. 00:17:23.369 --> 00:17:38.240 Um, but, uh, I mean, in a given day in the US, you'd have 5,000 airplanes in the air around the country and, and for the entire day it's anywhere from 45,000 to 50,000 aircraft are, are in the air in the country. 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:45.839 Um- Wow and at, and at Denver, again, you can run upwards of 150 aircraft in an hour. 00:17:45.869 --> 00:17:49.170 That's including departures, not just arrivals, but it's including all the aircraft. 00:17:49.170 --> 00:17:53.779 So, um, split it up amongst seven or eight positions 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:56.079 what is Busiest airport? 00:17:57.009 --> 00:17:59.390 Busiest airport as far as traffic is Atlanta. 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:06.650 Um, they've, uh, Delta, it's a huge hub for Delta and, and international and, and domestic. 00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:12.380 Um, I'm not sure what their latest numbers are, but, but as far as traffic is, it's Atlanta. 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:13.859 Then I think Chicago's second. 00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:15.470 Denver's worked its way up to third. 00:18:16.349 --> 00:18:19.940 Dallas, and then, um, maybe LA. 00:18:20.769 --> 00:18:22.500 Something like that for the US. 00:18:23.089 --> 00:18:37.589 As far as passenger traffic, a, a lot of international airports, uh, I think Atlanta's still number one passenger, but after that maybe Beijing actually works more passengers through their airport than everybody else. 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:39.720 Wow, okay. 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.359 So, uh, a lot of things happening in the news right now, like, um- 00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:45.009 Yeah the 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:56.730 tragic midair collision near Reagan National Airport, and it looks like there's been a major push to hire thousands of new controllers, and a big effort to modernize the whole system. 00:18:57.309 --> 00:19:08.380 So from your perspective, for someone who has lived this work for decades, what do you think the public most misunderstands about what's happening right now? 00:19:10.193 --> 00:19:18.104 It's not, it's not something that, that you, uh, pay somebody a lot of money and next year you've got new software, new hardware, and everything else. 00:19:18.104 --> 00:19:46.983 As, as an example, the, the current automation system they use in the building that I work, I worked, um, that software and hardware was beginning to be, uh, put into facilities in the late'90s, and it didn't get into all of the facilities until somewhere around 2016 may have been the last facilities, either Atlanta or Denver that got the, uh, final update. 00:19:48.003 --> 00:19:54.663 But as an example, if you remember late'90s, your cell phone, right? 00:19:55.354 --> 00:19:56.824 Your cell phone was a flip phone. 00:19:56.854 --> 00:20:00.554 You had no, no screen or anything. 00:20:01.394 --> 00:20:03.644 Um, and look where it's at today. 00:20:03.784 --> 00:20:09.923 You've got touch screen, you've got, uh, information at your fingertips that changes every second. 00:20:10.693 --> 00:20:20.314 And the controllers are still using a system that was designed and built in the mid-'90s and, and implement- or thrown out to the, the facilities late'90s. 00:20:21.094 --> 00:20:22.144 That hasn't changed. 00:20:22.233 --> 00:20:23.653 They may have updated things. 00:20:23.663 --> 00:20:39.634 It's kinda like Microsoft, um, you know, going from Windows 10 to Windows 11, and they issue updates, but in the end, there's only so many updates you can create or put into the system based upon the hardware that you're using. 00:20:40.243 --> 00:20:41.344 They don't have touchscreens. 00:20:41.513 --> 00:20:42.513 Why don't they have touchscreens? 00:20:42.523 --> 00:20:45.374 How long have you had a touchscreen phone? 00:20:45.384 --> 00:20:46.923 How long have you had a touchscreen computer? 00:20:47.134 --> 00:20:48.594 The controllers don't have that ability. 00:20:48.594 --> 00:21:01.958 They're still using a trackball and, um, um, keyboard to initiate commands or change things in their system and, uh- Uh, the, the problem with that is that it takes time. 00:21:02.637 --> 00:21:10.958 The, I mentioned Microsoft, uh, they don't, you know, come out with Windows 12 and then Windows 13 and Windows 14 every six months. 00:21:11.228 --> 00:21:12.248 They come out with upgrades. 00:21:12.938 --> 00:21:26.827 But it takes time to develop the software and make the changes, and then before you put it out into the world, you have to do a rigorous check on everything, make sure all the bugs are, are out. 00:21:27.117 --> 00:21:40.657 Uh, again, Microsoft, they'll put the, the software out, and they'll wait for people to say,"Hey, you got a bug here, you got a bug there," or,"We've got a security breach here because of this, and so we need to take care of that." Uh, you don't want that to happen in the air traffic world. 00:21:40.698 --> 00:21:47.337 You don't want the software and hardware to go out and then have the controller sitting there and find a bug and almost, you know, have an accident. 00:21:47.728 --> 00:21:48.038 Right?

00:21:48.258 --> 00:21:49.097 So it takes time. 00:21:49.097 --> 00:21:51.788 It, it, it takes time for them to write the, the software. 00:21:51.788 --> 00:21:56.798 They have to develop or have to de- uh, decide what type of hardware they're gonna use. 00:21:56.798 --> 00:22:01.847 The, all this stuff is somewhat off the shelf, but, but in a lot of ways it's not. 00:22:01.847 --> 00:22:03.218 It's specialized equipment. 00:22:03.827 --> 00:22:06.917 Um, and so it, it just takes, it takes time. 00:22:06.917 --> 00:22:10.117 Again, you think about the software and, and development of the hardware before. 00:22:10.117 --> 00:22:14.877 They started in the early'90s, and they, they put it out, started putting it out in the, in the late'90s. 00:22:15.178 --> 00:22:22.278 But it took them 15 years to, to get that equipment and software into all the facilities in the US. 00:22:22.278 --> 00:22:23.698 Wow. 00:22:23.698 --> 00:22:24.288 Wow. 00:22:24.288 --> 00:22:25.298 So it just takes time. 00:22:25.367 --> 00:22:25.498 Yeah. 00:22:27.228 --> 00:22:27.667 And money. 00:22:27.678 --> 00:22:28.657 Time and money, yes. 00:22:28.678 --> 00:22:28.847 Yeah. 00:22:28.847 --> 00:22:30.298 So someone did ask a question. 00:22:30.298 --> 00:22:35.417 I, I put it out to, to Facebook and on social media, and someone did ask the question. 00:22:35.417 --> 00:22:46.748 It says, because you're helping people modernize, especially, like you said, Singapore- Mm Hong Kong, what does modernizing mean was a question that was asked. 00:22:46.798 --> 00:22:49.877 Um, think of it more as updating. 00:22:50.498 --> 00:22:59.857 So, you know, like I was, uh, talking about the controller side of it where they're, you know, they're working on equipment and software that's 20-some years old, 25 years old or more. 00:23:00.587 --> 00:23:05.087 Um- Same thing with the phones. 00:23:05.147 --> 00:23:09.567 Your phones are a modernization of the previous iteration of it. 00:23:10.157 --> 00:23:22.557 Um, and so because of the increase in traffic around the world, uh, airports are building new runways, and because they're building new runways, they have to upgrade their procedures. 00:23:22.567 --> 00:23:28.228 They have to modernize their procedures to accommodate the increase in traffic, departures, and arrivals at these airports. 00:23:28.887 --> 00:23:34.498 Um, and also technology has, has been modernized or updated. 00:23:35.048 --> 00:23:38.998 Uh, more satellites are being used for navigation. 00:23:39.238 --> 00:23:42.678 Um, the equipment in the aircraft are being upgraded. 00:23:43.347 --> 00:23:55.928 And so to, um, i- to utilize that, that new technology, you have to upgrade or modernize the air traffic system as well. 00:23:55.928 --> 00:24:01.347 And it, it, it may be as simple as, you know, creating new procedures that, that you want the aircraft to fly by. 00:24:02.028 --> 00:24:11.117 Uh, so a procedure would be you go from this point to this point direct, and at this point you slow down, at this point you go up, and, and things like that. 00:24:11.117 --> 00:24:21.468 So, um, it's trying to create a system that reduces the workload for the controller and reduces the workload for the, uh, flight deck, the pilots. 00:24:22.067 --> 00:24:31.438 Um, and by doing some of these automated procedures, then it-- you don't have to talk as much as what I was doing on the, on the recording. 00:24:31.448 --> 00:24:41.228 There's, um, there's more, um, more of the procedure built in, more of those headings, the altitudes, the speeds that I was talking about, uh, those are built into the procedure. 00:24:41.228 --> 00:24:45.647 So it's upgrading all of that to make it simpler, make it more efficient. 00:24:46.208 --> 00:25:06.307 Um, part of that is, is, you know, the aircraft today are meant to fly more efficient, but we're still, every time you issue an instruction, a descent or whatever, the, uh, the aircraft isn't descending or climbing in a fuel efficient manner, I guess. 00:25:06.518 --> 00:25:17.357 So it's, a- again, the modernization is just upgrading everything to the current ability of the technology that's in the aircraft or in space or on the ground, if that makes sense. 00:25:17.657 --> 00:25:32.998 So, so if we ha- if we started today- To start to upgrade everything with the FAA, do you think there would still be another 15 years before that got all this new stuff got- Was available? 00:25:33.528 --> 00:25:37.597 If, if, if they, if they started, you know, a- and they might be now, I, I don't know. 00:25:37.597 --> 00:25:43.538 They've, they've gone through contract processes and everything and, and have hired a company to, to start this process. 00:25:43.538 --> 00:25:51.877 But, um, there's few companies that, that would be able to, to write the software, to create the software that runs the system. 00:25:52.307 --> 00:25:54.278 I mean, you're talking Lockheed Martin, Raytheon. 00:25:54.877 --> 00:25:56.907 Uh, there's a company in France called Thales. 00:25:56.958 --> 00:25:58.867 These, these companies have done it before. 00:25:59.587 --> 00:26:02.907 Uh, but there's other companies out there I'm, I'm sure that would be able to do it. 00:26:02.968 --> 00:26:07.728 It's, it's a five to six-year process, I would say. 00:26:07.877 --> 00:26:15.438 But, uh, for the time it takes them to write the code, to get the, uh, information they need to have, what they want. 00:26:15.478 --> 00:26:22.278 They have to, again, decide what they're designing it for, what type of hardware they're designing it for, what processor's going to be used. 00:26:22.288 --> 00:26:26.728 Uh, all that has to be determined, and then they start writing the code. 00:26:26.738 --> 00:26:33.298 Then after they write the code, they bring in people to run it, test it, find the bugs, what's wrong, what needs to be added. 00:26:33.867 --> 00:26:38.758 Um, and it doesn't happen, um, you know, in six months. 00:26:38.758 --> 00:26:40.458

It's, it's a process. 00:26:40.498 --> 00:26:45.258 Because once you find the bugs, the mistakes, and everything, obviously you have to go back and, and rewrite the code or whatever. 00:26:45.268 --> 00:26:51.458 So, uh, five to six years before they could even begin to, to put it into the air traffic system, I would say. 00:26:51.897 --> 00:27:05.468 Now, somebody may disagree obviously, but, um, it just doesn't happen overnight, and you don't want it to happen overnight because- Yeah that is used to keep airplanes from hitting each other 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:09.470 All right, here's a question that somebody asked- 00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:09.799 Okay 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:10.589 on social media. 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:15.009 How does the US airports compare to other countries' airports? 00:27:17.248 --> 00:27:22.188 Um, not much difference. 00:27:22.317 --> 00:27:34.778 Um, the, the biggest difference I've found between international and US is the amount of land they have available to, uh, put their airport on. 00:27:35.077 --> 00:27:40.458 Um, you know, Singapore, Singapore's a small island, small country, city, city-country. 00:27:40.458 --> 00:27:43.347 And, um, I... 00:27:43.538 --> 00:27:57.778 When I first started working on Singapore, I gave them an example of, of the US versus them, and the amount of land that, uh, DIA sits on is about 47 square miles, I think, which is huge. 00:27:57.778 --> 00:28:03.357 It's, uh, it's the largest airport by land mass in the world except for one somewhere in the, uh, Middle East. 00:28:04.188 --> 00:28:11.097 But that airport land that it sits on is about a fifth of the size of Singapore's island itself. 00:28:11.107 --> 00:28:11.127 Wow. 00:28:12.218 --> 00:28:23.048 And so it makes a difference when you have the space because now you, you have separation built in in a lot of ways because the airplanes are farther apart just because of the way you've built the runways. 00:28:23.048 --> 00:28:24.698 You have the, the area to build it. 00:28:24.698 --> 00:28:28.847 So I would say it's, it's, um... 00:28:29.107 --> 00:28:30.038 That's one issue. 00:28:30.067 --> 00:28:38.238 The other would be, um, some countries are, are not going to be as advanced, uh, which is why we do what we do. 00:28:38.238 --> 00:28:39.488 We're, we're trying to... 00:28:39.768 --> 00:28:56.577 The FA wants our company to go out and do international work and try to, uh, upgrade their systems because we have US airlines, we have US citizens flying into all these airports and these countries, and they want it to be as safe as possible based on the FA regulations. 00:28:56.577 --> 00:28:58.597 They want it to be more similar to the FA. 00:28:58.627 --> 00:29:01.597 And the other countries are, are, are doing that. 00:29:01.607 --> 00:29:02.018 They're... 00:29:02.147 --> 00:29:05.137 That's why they reach out to us, try to help upgrade. 00:29:06.157 --> 00:29:06.718 MITRE company? 00:29:06.968 --> 00:29:07.597 MITRE Corporation? 00:29:07.597 --> 00:29:07.887 Yeah. 00:29:08.258 --> 00:29:08.528 Yeah. 00:29:08.577 --> 00:29:08.897 Yeah. 00:29:10.298 --> 00:29:10.827 Okay. 00:29:11.387 --> 00:29:12.198 Here's another question. 00:29:12.228 --> 00:29:15.157 How has funding cuts impacted the industry? 00:29:17.238 --> 00:29:19.127 Ooh, I may not be able to answer that one. 00:29:19.347 --> 00:29:29.048 Um, it, it-- Now we get into the, the, uh, number of controllers needed. 00:29:29.097 --> 00:29:30.377 It, it would impact that. 00:29:30.897 --> 00:29:47.397 Uh, I read an article where Congress approved a 3.8% raise for controllers, uh, this last year and-- or maybe it was late'25, but it was supposed to be put in this year, and the only thing the government gave them was a 1% raise. 00:29:47.397 --> 00:29:50.857 They're holding back 2.8%, uh, raise for the controllers. 00:29:51.407 --> 00:29:57.817 Not sure why, but Congress is trying to figure out why they haven't given the controllers a raise. 00:29:57.857 --> 00:30:08.248 And, you know, we can get, go whole, down a whole another rabbit hole with, with, you know, um, that whole scenario. 00:30:08.248 --> 00:30:13.567 They've, they've reduced the amount of controllers they say they actually need. 00:30:14.087 --> 00:30:30.548 The original number was like 14,000 and some, and now it's down almost to 12,000 and some because they have a s- study that says they can change the scheduling to where it will not impact the controllers as much and that controllers won't have to work six days a week. 00:30:30.548 --> 00:30:31.607 And that is still going on. 00:30:31.607 --> 00:30:33.488 There-- It's mandatory overtime for the controllers. 00:30:33.488 --> 00:30:34.738 They're working six days a week. 00:30:35.167 --> 00:30:36.688 They do get paid time and a half. 00:30:36.738 --> 00:30:40.988 They, they get, you know, we get extra pay for working in the evening. 00:30:40.998 --> 00:30:42.988 We get extra pay for working on Sundays. 00:30:42.988 --> 00:30:45.438 We get extra pay for working on, on a holiday. 00:30:46.147 --> 00:30:52.028 But the fact is, if you're working on a holiday, and you understand this, I'm not home for holidays. 00:30:52.397 --> 00:31:09.738 So there's still the issue of, of not having enough controllers, and it's not that simple to fix because it takes a special kind of mind to do the job. 00:31:10.347 --> 00:31:11.928 Again, there's that arrogance you have to have. 00:31:11.948 --> 00:31:15.768 You have to have, um, you know, uh, an idea of what you're doing. 00:31:15.768 --> 00:31:21.387 There's a planning, there's a, you know, puzzle-solving kind of thing that you have to have that ability 00:31:25.354 --> 00:31:25.564 Yeah, and it's not a quick thing. 00:31:25.564 --> 00:31:27.627 You know, you gotta go to- No is it still Oklahoma where they, that's where your initial training is? 00:31:27.627 --> 00:31:28.163 It's still Oklahoma. 00:31:28.163 --> 00:31:35.253 It's not, yeah, it's not the same thing that I

had, but, uh, it's still, uh, I think it's a five, four or five months deal. 00:31:35.253 --> 00:31:36.673 They go to Oklahoma for just screening. 00:31:36.673 --> 00:31:38.943 They don't, they learn basic air traffic. 00:31:39.064 --> 00:31:44.513 Uh, and they go through testing and everything else, and you have to have a, uh, show a, a, a competence for it. 00:31:44.554 --> 00:31:52.384 And if you pass, uh, the 70% or more on, on their, system, at least that's what it was for me, then you get put out of the facility. 00:31:52.384 --> 00:31:59.213 Then you have to go through the training process for the facility, and you go through all the different positions that they have, and you s- typically start out slow. 00:31:59.703 --> 00:32:03.743 But you certify on a position, and then go to the next position, train, certify. 00:32:04.324 --> 00:32:10.263 That process will take, if you're successful, could take a year to two years to complete. 00:32:11.243 --> 00:32:19.763 And you're, so you're in training for, for that long possibly, depending on the facility, depending on the level of traffic, depending on your ability to do the job. 00:32:19.773 --> 00:32:19.784 Mm. 00:32:21.084 --> 00:32:22.433 So it's, it's... 00:32:22.693 --> 00:32:33.473 And, and again, you hire 2,000 people, and, uh, you may only find 50 people that can, that can do the job and actually pass the, the, all the training. 00:32:35.203 --> 00:32:35.983 So it's not simple. 00:32:37.653 --> 00:32:38.554 Here's another question. 00:32:38.733 --> 00:32:40.044 I don't know if this is gonna be... 00:32:40.074 --> 00:32:42.854 I, it was, it was asked, so I'm gonna a- ask you. 00:32:43.423 --> 00:32:44.094 Okay. 00:32:44.243 --> 00:32:45.993 Is T- TSA PreCheck worth it? 00:32:48.130 --> 00:33:02.569 As somebody that has flown quite a bit, uh, there are times when I've gone through TSA PreCheck, and I'm, uh, I'm at an O- a level of OCD that I'm sitting there watching somebody going in the regular check line and, and I'm going through TSA PreCheck. 00:33:02.569 --> 00:33:05.730 So when I get done, I look over and see where this person is and see if it was faster. 00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:09.210 But it, it's, it's a very good process. 00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:12.759 Um, it simplifies things, without a doubt. 00:33:13.049 --> 00:33:15.680 Um, I, you know, you don't have... 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:23.609 I, I, I don't know what all the rules are now for the regular, regular check, uh, TSA check through, but, um, it's... 00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:26.519 I, I, I would- 00:33:27.390 --> 00:33:28.369 I'm just gonna say this. 00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:38.380 I'm just gonna say this- Yeah because before I got TSA Pr- PreCheck, and, uh, people listening out there, Brett would not go with me- through the regular security. 00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:39.009 I, 00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:40.170 yes- He was still gonna go to- 00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:42.829 I, I admit to that, yes. 00:33:42.829 --> 00:33:52.400 I will say I,

I, I left her alone in the regular line that, that was the cattle, you know, back and forth, you know, through the, through the ropes. 00:33:52.400 --> 00:34:01.240 And I didn't wanna do that because, you know, I didn't wanna have to take everything out of my, my computer bag, didn't wanna take off my belt, my shoes, and then have to put it all back together. 00:34:01.250 --> 00:34:01.269 Yeah. 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:02.339 So no, sorry. 00:34:02.470 --> 00:34:03.359 Sorry I did that to you. 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:07.210 But I w- I would do it again, so 00:34:09.579 --> 00:34:11.610 Which is why I got TSA PreCheck. 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:12.130 Oh. 00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:12.760 All right. 00:34:12.769 --> 00:34:12.789 Yeah. 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:17.369 Well, um, thank you so much for sharing this with people. 00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:17.409 Sure. 00:34:17.730 --> 00:34:25.179 And, uh, a- and I'll just end, end, end this with, is it still really safe out there? 00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:30.800 Uh, that's a loaded question, but, um, because safe is a relative word. 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.634 Um It's, it's as safe as you're going to find, uh, right now. 00:34:36.634 --> 00:34:45.034 I mean, it's, uh, everybody talks about you're, you're probably more likely to die from a meteorite hitting your house or something than, than dying in an aircraft accident. 00:34:45.074 --> 00:34:50.884 And, and that's, uh, you know, if you wanna look at the, the simple answer, can you die flying in an airplane? 00:34:50.884 --> 00:34:51.503 Yes, you can. 00:34:52.063 --> 00:34:59.043 Uh, we just had, uh, an accident the other day at, uh, Miami where an aircraft ran off the runway, and they... 00:34:59.324 --> 00:35:03.744 I don't think the pilots died, but people on the ground got hit by the airplane and the car. 00:35:04.353 --> 00:35:05.143 So I mean, it's... 00:35:06.744 --> 00:35:07.923 Air traffic is safe. 00:35:08.213 --> 00:35:11.653 There are a lot of safety mechanisms built in. 00:35:12.273 --> 00:35:16.353 Uh, the FAA goes through, uh, what they call a safety risk management process. 00:35:16.353 --> 00:35:46.893 So you have to go through and when you make changes or you are trying to, uh, uh, look at different scenarios like the DCA crash, they, you know, recommend that, that you go through some of these procedures you've created and go through the safety risk process, which is identifying hazards, and then how often th- could those hazards happen, and if it does happen, what is the, um, what could be the, the worst possible outcome? 00:35:47.474 --> 00:35:57.994 So if you're looking at something and it says, well, it's a, a, a collision, air, an, a midair collision is the possible outcome, uh, how often could it happen? 00:35:58.213 --> 00:35:59.034 Well, every month. 00:35:59.063 --> 00:36:01.043 Well, that's not a very good thing to have, right? 00:36:01.043 --> 00:36:04.094 If it's gonna, if it could happen that much and you could lose life. 00:36:04.684

--> 00:36:15.563 Doesn't mean it can't be mitigated down to a lower level by putting in safety restrictions or some sort of, of safeguard to, to keep it safe. 00:36:15.804 --> 00:36:20.954 And that's what the, that's what the s- FAA goes through, uh, all the time, uh, when they implement new procedures. 00:36:21.233 --> 00:36:23.143 That's what a- actually every country in the world goes through. 00:36:23.143 --> 00:36:25.393 They have a, a safety process they have to go through. 00:36:25.393 --> 00:36:28.373 We just went through it, uh, with a couple of international airports. 00:36:28.373 --> 00:36:33.164 So, um, and so you, it, it, it's safe. 00:36:33.594 --> 00:36:34.204 It is safe. 00:36:34.224 --> 00:36:37.463 It is not flawless by any stretch. 00:36:37.954 --> 00:36:39.554 Uh, you're still relying on a human- But it's still gonna 00:36:39.554 --> 00:36:39.974 fly 00:36:40.443 --> 00:36:43.403 still gonna fly- Yeah and there's more airplanes getting up there. 00:36:43.403 --> 00:36:45.643 And again, the human element is still there. 00:36:46.353 --> 00:36:50.403 Um, and, uh, the human, human is not flawless. 00:36:50.643 --> 00:37:03.974 So, uh, when you've got human pilots, you've got human controllers, um, you've got, uh, you actually got animals running onto the runway and, and, and you get hit by an airplane, you know, crossing a runway. 00:37:04.373 --> 00:37:11.733 Uh, you had an incident where you were taking off from Denver going to Mexico, and the tire blew. 00:37:12.253 --> 00:37:14.184 And, uh, again, luckily the 00:37:14.443 --> 00:37:15.333 pilot- Oh, let me tell that story. 00:37:15.333 --> 00:37:15.804 Yeah. 00:37:15.804 --> 00:37:18.403 Yeah, let me tell that story- Yeah, sure just real quickly because- 00:37:18.443 --> 00:37:18.853 Yeah, sure 00:37:19.034 --> 00:37:27.423 uh,'cause this is again, an example of me calling Brett saying,"Hey, what's going on?" So we were getting ready to take off. 00:37:27.634 --> 00:37:39.237 We started going really fast, and all of a sudden we hear this noise, and the When we brake to the point where you had to come forward, the seatbelt held us in Yeah And then we're stopped. 00:37:40.237 --> 00:37:44.938 We don't know anything for at least 10 minutes, and people are looking around. 00:37:45.438 --> 00:37:54.958 I'm shaking because I'm reminded of my friend who died in Flight 1713 before, right before I met you. 00:37:54.967 --> 00:37:54.987 Yeah. 00:37:55.478 --> 00:37:58.557 And, um, so I call Brett. 00:37:58.577 --> 00:37:59.918 In fact, I can't even... 00:38:00.177 --> 00:38:10.387 I am shaking so bad that I say to my daughter,"Call Dad." And, um, and so- And- we got really lucky 00:38:11.108 --> 00:38:14.268 yeah, a- and I was gonna say, what was one of my first comments to you? 00:38:14.268 --> 00:38:23.757 You're about, you're about 10 to 15 seconds away from being on TV,'cause had that aircraft gotten airborne, then you would've had to make an emergency landing without a tire. 00:38:25.177 --> 00:38:25.568 And- 00:38:25.568 --> 00:38:30.097 Yes, I remember you saying that that'cause, um, we had enough runway- 00:38:30.617 --> 00:38:30.818 Yeah 00:38:30.818 --> 00:38:35.378 that they could, um, they could stop. 00:38:35.688 --> 00:38:35.827 Mm-hmm. 00:38:35.998 --> 00:38:45.458 And if they hadn't had enough runway, they would have taken off, come around, and like you said, land with that wing as part of the- 00:38:46.478 --> 00:38:46.768 Yeah 00:38:46.777 --> 00:38:48.498 tire- Missing that wasn't there. 00:38:48.858 --> 00:38:49.347 Missing, missing the- Not 00:38:49.347 --> 00:38:49.608 tires. 00:38:49.668 --> 00:38:50.608 It was both tires. 00:38:51.338 --> 00:39:02.608 Yeah, missing the right or left, uh, gear mean, means that you're gonna come in level, and then at the last minute it's gonna dip because there's no gear, so the, the wing would've hit the runway, and like I said, it would've been... 00:39:02.648 --> 00:39:03.507 You'd have been on TV. 00:39:05.588 --> 00:39:07.728 Luckily we weren't, and they handled everything very well. 00:39:07.728 --> 00:39:07.967 Yep. 00:39:07.967 --> 00:39:08.677 Yep. 00:39:08.677 --> 00:39:10.068 And, um, yeah. 00:39:10.367 --> 00:39:15.217 So, um, thank you so much- Sure for doing what you've been doing. 00:39:15.728 --> 00:39:19.525 It- And I, a- again, this, this whole thing, this is my opinion. 00:39:20.204 --> 00:39:24.054 This isn't, you know, this is just what I experienced. 00:39:25.045 --> 00:39:25.125 Okay. 00:39:25.125 --> 00:39:25.474 All right. 00:39:25.474 --> 00:39:26.954 Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom- 00:39:27.545 --> 00:39:27.804 Sure 00:39:27.945 --> 00:39:28.914 with us. 00:39:29.394 --> 00:39:41.454 Um, so until next time, be mindful of yourself, kindful of others, and gentle with the beautifully imperfect journey of being a human. 00:39:41.764 --> 00:39:46.985 Because story by story, heart by heart, this is how the world gets a little kinder