71. Mind the Gap: Generations in Trial Practice, with Professor Marian Braccia의 전체 녹취록

00:06:40.000 There's Gen X, born 1965 to roughly 1980, then Gen Y, or the Millennials, born roughly 1980, 1981, to the year 2000. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:47.600 Gen Z was born right at the turn of the century, around 2000, 2001, until 2020. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.079 And I have four children of my own since you got mentioned your son, so congrats to him on his recent law school graduation. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:07:02.319 And I have one who was born in Gen Z in 2012, and then three others who were born Gen Alpha 2013 and thereafter. 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:05.040 Yeah, it's a big spread. 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:13.360 And it's it's interesting that in law you can have the elder generations still working of counsel. 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:25.040 I have known so many lawyers throughout my gosh, almost 40 years working in law who were, you know, in their late 80s and 90s still coming to the office and sharp as attack. 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:29.600 So it's important that we talk about all of the generations that you've just listed. 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:35.920 I did a a tidy bit of digging, and I think this is still up-to-date information. 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:53.439 Um, as of last January, Norfolk, Virginia's Stanley Sachs, um, at uh now almost 102 years old, was the oldest and longest practicing attorney in the United States with 75 years experience uh in personal injury law. 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:54.959 And he still works every day. 00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:13.439 He works with a paralegal, um, mostly remotely from home, but even centenarians are becoming more numerous given the fact that we are nearly a quarterway through the 21st century and there are still practitioners who were born to that silent generation, the early part of the silent generation. 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:14.800 That's amazing. 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.800 So, what are the defining characteristics that come into play at work? 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:29.759 I would like to start by discussing the societal changes that each generation grew up witnessing, whether that works out for them as being a liability or an advantage. 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.919 And in the end, it if informs their work habits. 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:45.440 So let me start then with the traditionalists who were born in that 1922 to 1944 range. 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.720 Um, that's also known as the silent generation. 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:57.039 Um, this was the generation uh that was defined by the Great Depression, by the Second World War, then later by the Korean War. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:06.080 Um, remember, this was the generation that uh went through their formative years before uh the women's rights movement, before the civil rights movement. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.080 Uh, when people of this generation got married, it was marriage for life. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:16.159 Divorce was a not very common uh practice among married people. 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:21.679 This was the age of wireless

radio, of big band, of swing music. 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:27.120 Um this was also the generation that went to school and had very disciplined education. 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:33.840 So, you know, sitting in alphabetical order or sitting in straight rows and just sitting and watching the teacher at the front of the classroom. 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:40.320 This was not the collaborative, let's work in groups and do little group exercises and group projects generation. 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:46.000 Um the traditionalists are also known as long-term savers. 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:54.480 They believe in paying cash, no credit, they like stability, and there was an end game. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:57.440 There was a goal of retirement. 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:12.720 Um, they certainly valued work, but they were less concerned about career path necessarily, and and more concerned with loyalty, loyalty to a company, loyalty to a job, loyalty to um uh a company mission. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:14.879 Um, but they they worked to live. 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:27.200 And when they did retire, retirement actually meant sitting in a rocking chair and enjoying your time off, not taking on a new profession, not going back to school, not uh uh taking on, you know, a part-time job. 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:32.799 Um, and this generation really preferred direction from the top down. 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:38.399 So this was not a generation that was raised to question or challenge authority. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:42.639 They were comfortable with receiving information on a need-to-know basis. 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:47.200 There was no, I'll use a naughty word here, but there was no entitlement to it. 00:10:47.200 --> 00:11:06.960 Um, so this this was this was a a generation that was uh very accustomed to hierarchy, to structure, to following that structure, to taking, uh, receiving and then executing orders and not necessarily um, again, challenging or or questioning the direction they were given. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:08.480 So you knew your place. 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:14.879 I think that's a great soundbite and probably a much more effective way to say it than my long recitation there. 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:16.080 No, it's good. 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.720 So, what about baby baby boomers, the next generation? 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:35.519 Yeah, so the baby boomers, again, born between 1945 to 1964, defined by the Vietnam War, by civil rights activism, um, other defining uh moments in this generation were the JFK and Martin Luther King assassinations. 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:43.840 Um, this was the the generation that's all the influx of television and then the transition to audio cassettes from transistor radios. 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:52.720 Um this was a a generation that made their support of human rights um heard and seen. 00:11:52.720 --> 00:12:05.919 This was a protest generation that that I think began to question the authority and began to be much more vocal and outspoken when they disagreed with authority. 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:20.159 Educationally, this was a generation um that participated in the classroom probably more than the traditionalists did, but with quiet participation, with it with deference, with um orderly participation, if you will. 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:25.519 Um, and this generation did not retire as early as the traditionalists. 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:46.399 They stayed in the workforce a bit longer and uh really valued their career advancement and and started to focus more on what we think of uh in uh our traditional or more tangible rewards from the workplace, like promotions, like salary increases. 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:59.120 Um, this generation, and I'm sure we'll talk about this when we get a little bit further down the ladder when we talk about millennials and Gen Z, but this generation is suspect of job hoppers. 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:07.440 They are uh very comfortable staying in the same job for decades from retiring uh from the same job. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:17.759 Um, and they do want to be and appreciate being recognized for their loyalty and the long hours and the long years of service that they dedicate. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.159 Um, this is, however, a generation that started relying a bit more on credit. 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:32.000 So this was kind of the buy now, pay later mentality that began to be introduced that I think um the next generation kind of took to the next level. 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:50.399 So it sounds like they value structure and stability, but they also want uh if we consider the civil rights era and um the protest era like Woodstock and all of that, they want to give everyone uh a voice and a place at the table. 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.320 I I think that's fair. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:14:01.519 And I think it's it is um uh when you say they appreciate structure, I think they would seek structure from a system that they agree with. 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:12.080 And this is probably the first generation or perhaps again the most vocal generation that will challenge a structure that they don't see as fair or equitable. 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.159 So I'm a member of Gen X. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.320 So go ahead and tell me all about myself. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.080 Well, Gen X, this is surprisingly the smallest generation in the United States. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:25.279 Um, and however, it's the most diverse generation. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:29.600 Now, this generation, again, born between 1965 and 1980. 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.840 I didn't give away your birth year there, Marcy. 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:32.960 I I know better than that. 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:34.159 That's okay. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:42.159 Um but this generation uh was the first American generation to see such a high parental divorce rate. 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.799 Um, they were marked by the recession of the 1980s. 00:14:46.799 -->

00:14:49.840 Um, this was the generation known as the Latchkey kids. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:15:02.720 This was perhaps the first generation that had both parents who were working outside the home and would come home and not have a parent or really a mother there to greet them because she was also working. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:07.840 This generation is the first American generation that expects college as a birthright. 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:13.360 We hadn't seen that yet in the silent or traditionalist generation or the baby boomers. 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:21.519 So this generation um didn't necessarily question whether they would go on to college right after high school. 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.399 That was just something, frankly, that was assumed. 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:54.399 Um, but remember also we're we're seeing this generation come of age during the spread of the AIDS pandemic, um, also during the spread and and the beginning of the real technology boom, uh, where we're seeing computers king, we're starting to see the IBM and and the um much more common uh placement of a personal computer in their homes as children, um, so, or I should say as as adolescents and young adults. 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:03.679 Um, this is, as I alluded to from our baby boomer discussion, the perhaps the most credit savvy generation. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:19.600 Um, they lived with incremental debt and kind of knew or know how to balance that because um accruing student loan debt, accruing uh mortgage debt, things like that was uh again also very, very common. 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:24.720 And that probably had a lot to do with the economy that they were growing up in. 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:34.399 This generation, more so than the past two generations we've talked about, even the more so than the baby boomer generation, is most cynical of leadership. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:43.440 And in the workplace, Gen Xers value their co-workers just as much, if not more, than management. 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:50.799 So if there is an answer, if there is a question that can be answered from a peer or a coworker, Gen Xers will go to a peer. 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.919 They won't go to a supervisor to get something done. 00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:06.799 Um, this generation, again, building on the baby boomers, I I lovingly refer to them beyond their latch key kid status, but I lovingly refer to Gen X as the show-me the money generation. 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:17.759 So, in lieu of praise, in lieu of the intangibles, I want the bonus, I want the salary bump, I want, you know, the the the nearest parking spot, whatever the case may be. 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:23.519 But this really was the generation that was um focused on the dollars and cents more than anything. 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:32.319 And I I think we'll also talk about that when when we talk about how the economy of law has shifted in the past 40 or so years. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.039 Well, I came of age during

reagonomics. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:40.559 So that stuff about the bonus and uh economic rewards certainly checks out. 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.240 What about the millennials? 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:43.119 What are they like? 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:59.279 Well, again, I I think the millennials, even before they started taking over the entire workforce and the entire legal industry, certainly, the millennials I think also had a bad reputation or got a bad reputation and unfairly so. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:12.480 The millennials went through a lot as adolescents that I don't think has been given enough attention and enough enough sensitivity. 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:19.519 Gen Z certainly had and and has had a very tumultuous entry into adolescence and into adulthood. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:29.920 We can talk about COVID, we can talk about the economy, we can talk about the the very um contentious political world that that Gen Z has has grown up in. 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:38.160 But before that, the millennials, Gen Y, were in high school for Columbine. 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:42.480 Uh many were in high school or just entering college during 9-11. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:57.279 Uh, we're talking about the surveillance era, about new metal detectors and cameras and surveillance everywhere becoming um just a very natural part of our lives that wasn't part of our childhood. 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:13.200 Um there are, there was certainly the the memory of the Oklahoma City bombings and other acts of domestic terrorism uh in in addition to uh Columbine and and then the uh proliferation of school shootings. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:22.000 So, so all of these social factors have really informed how uh the millennials entered the workforce. 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:30.720 This is the first generation, the millennial generation might be the first generation that is that is better educated than their superiors. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:40.880 So it's not uncommon in the workplace to see a millennial worker uh with a higher degree or more years of education than the person to whom they are answering in the workplace. 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.480 This is this is a generation that really does seek the fast track. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:49.279 There is a smaller cohort within the millennial generation known as the Xenials. 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:54.240 So they were born roughly between 1977 and 1983. 00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:01.279 Um, and uh they they were said to have had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.960 So this this was a generation that really adapted to technology very, very quickly. 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:23.839 And again, uh, this was uh a time and a and a means for them to seek the fast track because they adapted to that technology, adapted to automation rather easily and rather quickly, certainly more so than Gen X and the baby boomers did. 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:48.400 And so, because of their uh uh adaptability, especially with technology, this was the first generation to be in the workplace, to be in the workforce and demand feedback because of their exposure to technology and kind of seeing an instantaneous result there on the screen or even through video games, as silly as an example as that may be. 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:54.480 But the millennials really do expect feedback and want to know how they're doing. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:00.880 I think the earlier generations, like the traditionalists and the baby boobers, said, you know what, no news is good news. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.720 If I'm not hearing from my boss, I'm gonna take that to mean that I'm doing a good job. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.960 And that does not work for the millennials. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.440 Even if they are doing a good job, they need to be told it. 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.240 And if they're not, they want to be told it even sooner. 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:19.680 Um, the millennials expect to be paid for what they do, not the time that's spent doing it. 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:25.200 And so for them, faster is better, but that doesn't mean that you can shortchange their compensation. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:40.160 I I think I um I saw a meme or a reel or whatever you call it on social media from a uh actually from a tattoo artist that said, it might take me 10 minutes to do your tattoo, but it took me 20 years to learn how to do how to learn how to do that. 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:45.440 Um so you're paying me not for the 10 minutes, but for the 20 years that it took me to learn it. 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.599 And so that's that is how the millennials feel about their compensation. 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:55.839 Not just because they can do it faster doesn't mean they should be uh paid for the time it took them to do it. 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:19.440 Um this generation really does also desire a flexible work schedule and time off because for the first time now we're seeing a demand for um uh a home life balance, a work-life balance, and they they are valuing the time spent with their family, with their friends, um, and they are focused on good health. 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:36.720 I think if we were to look at some of the unfair or um unkind stereotypes that exists uh for the millennial generation, this is the generation that was known as the trophy generation because they expect, you know, a toy in their in every bag with their Happy Meal. 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:42.799 Um, this was, you know, the generation that started getting participation trophies and not just the award when you won. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:46.480 So, as we said, also this is a very large generation. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:23:00.480 So for almost every profession that we see in our Bureau of Labor Statistics breakdown, um, this is the largest uh represented generation in almost every profession, and that's certainly so in law. 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:10.960 Um, and this is a generation that um

engages meaningfully um on almost every platform that they are given. 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:28.480 So whether that means email or text or social media um or uh in in-person communications with friends, with family, very social groups, this this is a really in-touch and wired in generation that um has its finger on on the pulse of a lot. 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.279 It sounds like they are breaking the mold. 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.319 Uh maybe not just the mold, but every mold. 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:39.440 Like they're challenging everything and doing everything kind of a l kind of differently. 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:50.480 Kind of differently and in their own way and and finding ways that that um enable them to achieve what they want to achieve in the way that they want to do it. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:55.599 So yeah, they really are rewriting the playbook and playing by their own rules. 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.720 So let's get to the digital natives, Gen Z. 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.400 What can you tell us about them? 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:06.720 So our Gen Zers, our Gen Zers were born from uh around again, around the turn of the century. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.480 Some stats put them at at a birth year of around 1995. 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:19.599 I simplify it and say it's closer to the turn of the century, so around uh 2000, you know, and and born until about 2010, 2012. 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:28.720 Um, and so this generation um knows nothing of privacy because they have been raised on social media. 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.319 Um their faces are all over social media. 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:44.720 They have no problem kind of blasting where they are, tagging their location, tagging who they're with, um, uh saying exactly what's on their mind in in live feeds, on live reels. 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:53.519 So they really don't, as I said, know anything about or or seek that um that solitude or that privacy. 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:58.400 They are quite comfortable being uh communal and being non-anonymous. 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:09.519 Um it, however, comes to the workplace, uh Gen Z is even more so than the millennials, arguably the most tech-savvy generation. 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.000 They were born after the advent of the internet. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.920 They grew up with access to the most modern computers and smartphones. 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.039 You know, the joke is they were born with an iPhone in their hands. 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:33.440 Um apart from technology, this generation is also very, very socially conscious and often very outspoken on issues of sustainability, diversity, equality, certainly other far-reaching issues. 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.440 Um, and this is uh also a very diverse generation. 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:49.839 So the communities with the broadest spectrum of backgrounds with race, gender, orientation, identity, um, these are the uh communities that are most attractive to Gen Z. 00:25:49.839 --> 00:26:01.680 Gen Z lawyers specifically are thankfully acutely aware of mental health and maintaining their mental health. 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:10.400 And they desire, not only desire, but demand, manageable work-life balances to preserve their emotional and physical well-being. 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:30.000 I think members of this generation are also more um receptive to remote opportunities and to having um uh uh the the flexibility that again will allow them to work in a way and in a place and at times that work for them, that are most convenient for them. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:36.960 And I think that is where we see a lot of tension with the older generations in the workplace, especially in law. 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:48.559 So to piggyback on that, we had shared with one another an article that was published in the New York Times just this past summer about how Gen Z is small C conservative. 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:55.599 They are constitutionally moderate and driven by old-fashioned values, what you might call wholesome. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.759 Do you find that to be true? 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.079 I I think I do agree with that, with that description. 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:16.079 Um, and particularly in the sense that I find, especially in the classroom and interacting with uh Gen Z law students and now new Gen Z lawyers, they are a particularly care-giving group. 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:37.200 Gen Z is a group that has more enthusiasm for um helping and being in a helping profession and taking care of um smaller communities, marginalized communities, communities that that might be either victimized or again forgotten, marginalized. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:59.119 Um, and Gen Z lawyers in particular are not as interested in those big top salary offers from big law as they are for um bigger roles at smaller firms where they can make more of a societal communal civic impact. 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.720 So I I agree with that New York Times assessment. 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:26.559 And uh I think it it's almost a reversion to uh what we saw in the early 1980s or I'd say after the Vietnam era and into the early 1980s with this more um wholesome kind of small firm or even solar proprietor model of legal practice, and and it it feels a little like a return to those days. 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:35.039 So then do you think that we are in the midst of a generational sea change that's going to alter the way that the legal profession goes about doing its business? 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:38.799 So I I do think that everything is cyclical. 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:50.400 And I think that we have seen tensions before between the generations, not only on the in the workplace generally, but in the practice of law more specifically. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:29:18.799 And I this this reminds me some of the tensions that we're seeing between the baby boomers and and Gen X and the younger generations, like the the younger millennials and

certainly Gen Z currently, um, reminds me of the the tensions that existed, as I mentioned, in the early 1980s, when there was um I think a transition um to a much larger and more capitalistic structure of the business of law. 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.799 So I don't think this is new. 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:31.920 I don't think that we have ever uh not experienced and not survived uh intergenerational conflict before within the practice of law. 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:44.880 I think it's just a new generation making itself known, welcoming itself into the profession and uh having some having had the whole profession having some growing pains having these new members as a part of it. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:50.319 You had mentioned that millennials make up the greatest percentage in the legal workforce today. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:56.640 Would you happen to have at your fingertips the split or what the the current mix is of generations? 00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:58.160 Yeah. 00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:10.400 So our Millennial generation who's between ages 35 and 44 currently is just under a third of the entire profession, the entire legal profession. 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:11.519 It's about 29%. 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:20.799 After them are the Gen Xers, who are, again, between 45 and 54. 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.039 They're just over 21%. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.519 So about a fifth of the profession. 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:31.440 Then slightly younger than the millennials, Gen Z is coming up right behind them. 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.400 They're age 25 to 34. 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:42.400 They comprise about between 18 and 19% of the profession, 18.6% according to the ABA. 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:52.319 And then the Gen X, age 55 to 64 generation is just under 18%. 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:58.400 And the baby boomers, age 65 and older, are about 13% of the profession. 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:10.640 And I will say law, this is no surprise to anyone, I'm sure, but law does tend to be a slightly older profession, comparatively speaking, to the rest of the American workforce. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.559 And that's there's a few reasons for that. 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:22.559 Number one, certainly, is the fact that there are at least three years of education that have to go into training before one can sit for the bar and be a licensed attorney. 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:36.000 But the other reason that we are an older generation or we skew slightly older is because attorneys are working much longer, as we talked about earlier with centenarian uh practicing attorneys still. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:42.000 So this is overall an older, uh, an older generation. 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:51.119 Um we did see the retirement age drop, dip ever so slightly after COVID or during COVID, um, but it is back up. 00:31:51.119 --> 00:32:00.720 And so that the median age of all attorneys across the profession is about 46, while the median age of workers across the American workforce is between 41 and 42. 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:06.480 Authority is the power to give orders, make decisions, and enforce compliance. 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:11.599 And there are three or three different areas concerning authority that we have been discussing today. 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:31.279 We've touched on leadership a little bit earlier in the conversation, but I wonder if we could circle back and just get a kind of a quick couple of words about what each generation expects from authority figures within their organization and what leadership characteristics attract and conversely repel them. 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:36.880 We'll start with the elder generations, the traditionalists and the silent generation. 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:56.720 I think I think it's it's easy to sum up the traditionalists and the baby boomers by saying they respect leadership and the traditionalists will rarely challenge leadership because they are perfectly comfortable with that top-down authority, perfectly comfortable with hierarchy. 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.759 Um the baby boomers, however, do respect leadership but will challenge it. 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:08.720 So they they do respect um uh uh the who their supervisors are, who their their law firm leaders are. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:21.599 Um, but baby boomers are the ones who pushed organizations to give a greater voice to their workers and and to um the the people on the the the lower rungs of the hierarchy. 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:41.680 Um so I would say that that both of these generations, the traditionalists and the baby boomers, are um very respectful and mindful of hierarchies and and can operate well within them, but there's a difference between um their willingness to challenge their authority figures. 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.559 And we can't say the same for Gen X, can we? 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:46.000 No, definitely not. 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:50.880 And Gen X, um Gen X is not necessarily impressed with authority. 00:33:50.880 --> 00:34:06.000 They expect competent managers, but Gen Xers learned from technology and from non-traditional family structures, so they didn't um grow up necessarily with um an authority figure always present. 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:13.760 They didn't necessarily have a parent always present of whom they could ask permission or of whom they could ask for instruction or or guidance. 00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:20.800 Um and so Gen Xers typically embrace whoever is the most qualified to help make decisions or help answer questions. 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:33.760 And so, as we mentioned, they will seek out informal leaders, even if that means their co-workers, their colleagues, or you know, someone on the same level, so to speak, as they are, and won't necessarily always defer to authority. 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.920 Wow, that's a really great observation. 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.480 How do millennials build on that? 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:51.039 So millennials want

the senior people in their organizations to listen to their ideas and their opinions, and then they want broader and more inclusive decision-making processes. 00:34:51.039 --> 00:35:07.440 They they want to be asked for feedback, they want to be given feedback, and they also want to feel like they are contributing to the conversation, even if they are not the ones in the leadership roles or who have the decision-making authority. 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:24.400 So they expect guidance and feedback from their leaders and their authority figures, and they will challenge their authority figures, but at the same time, they expect that those authority figures are the ones who can teach and guide and mentor them in the workplace. 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:33.760 And I think that is something that um is essentially a a standard or some essentially an expectation of this generation. 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:35.599 And what about Gen Z? 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.239 So Gen Z is the same. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:46.960 So Gen Z, I think, um borrows a lot from Gen Y or from the millennials and seeking um that feedback, seeking that that mentorship. 00:35:46.960 --> 00:36:11.519 Um, but at the same time, if they have figured out a better, faster, cheaper, or frankly more customized and personal way of doing things, they uh expect to be able to incorporate that method into the workplace or in into the execution of their tasks without being um uh questioned or or uh challenged about doing so. 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:17.119 So the next authority concerns an organization's policies and procedures. 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.679 Let's break down how the generations regard that, starting with the elders. 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:27.920 So uh I think again, the traditionalists and the boomers have a lot in common in this category. 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:32.079 Uh according to the traditionalists, everyone should just do as they're told. 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:38.159 If if there's a memo, if there's a policy about it, if there's instructions out there about it, follow your instructions, follow the directions. 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:39.440 That's what we're here for. 00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:49.360 Um They believe that the existence of the policy is the very reason for compliance with the policy. 00:36:49.360 --> 00:37:03.760 Um, whereas the the boomers also respect policies and procedures and will also respect those directives and those guidelines, um, but they'll say, you know what, let's make a policy that's fair to everybody and that help that helps things run more smoothly. 00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:11.119 So again, they want to be part of the process and they are seeking uh fairness and equity in the process. 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:15.119 Uh, and then once that process exists, they'll respect it. 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.559 And Gen X. 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.000 Gen X says, you know what, one size doesn't fit all. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.159 Rules are made to be broken. 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:30.320 Policies are an invitation to ask more questions, particularly if there's not a stated reason for the policy. 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.719 You have to tell me why it exists, and then I can evaluate whether or not it's gonna work for me. 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.639 It's part of that generational irreverence that you mentioned before. 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.679 It's kind of like, hey, listen, I looked after myself after school. 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:47.519 I should be able to see myself through this task and not be uh confined to certain parameters, right? 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:48.960 Yeah, no kidding. 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.320 Millennials. 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:59.519 So millennials say if it doesn't make sense, I'm just gonna assume that that policy is a guideline and figure out a way to make it work for me. 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:12.079 This was, again, a generation that would question their parents' rules, um, that wouldn't necessarily just follow orders because it came from an authority figure or a boss or a parent. 00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:20.239 And so millennials see policies and procedures like they see most other things as all things up for negotiation. 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.400 And it's the same true for Gen Z? 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.960 I think it is the same for Gen Z. 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:39.199 Um, and one thing that my husband and I have had to get used to with parenting children in Gen Z and Gen Alpha is that the the phrase because I said so does does not carry the day, right? 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:45.519 So with with um, and and this is really interesting too, because I've spoken with jury consultants about this. 00:38:45.519 --> 00:39:00.400 And when you have Gen Z ears on your jury, if they are given an instruction by the judge, it is oftentimes much more effective to give them the instruction and give them the reason they are being given the instruction. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:10.880 So it's not just that the jury will disregard or the jury will give weight to this piece of evidence, but they have to be told why they're being told to disregard a particular piece of evidence. 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:20.079 They have to be told why there's a conference happening in at sidebar in the judge's chambers in in order for them to be part of the process and embrace the process. 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:30.800 So when when I, you know, tell my kids to do something, or even frankly, tell my students to do something, it will not be received or adhered to without an explanation. 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:36.800 So I'm changing the date for this assignment, or we are going to have a midterm, and here's why. 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.719 And at that point, there is buy-in and there is much more cooperation. 00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:46.639 Well, that's a hot tip about when you're addressing jurors who are within this generation. 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:47.360 Right. 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:48.159 Right.

00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:52.559 So the third area concerning authority relates to how decisions are made. 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.400 How does each generation view its role in decision making? 00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.400 And we will start again with the elders. 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:00.880 The traditionalists say the boss decides. 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.159 Boss is at the top, top down, boss is at the top for a reason. 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:05.519 He or she earned it. 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:12.639 Um, and I'm gonna listen to that authority figure without questioning authority because to question authority would be insubordination. 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:14.800 And then the boomers. 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:21.519 The boomers do use a decision-making process, but ultimately the boss decides. 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:28.159 Um, and this was the first generation in the workplace that incorporated surveys to critique the boss. 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:37.679 And so that is the way that that they were able uh to give feedback and and kind of express how they felt about the decision making that was perhaps being made on their behalf. 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.840 So it's a bit of participation. 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:43.199 I I think they appreciate that bit of participation, yes. 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:44.800 And what about Gen X? 00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:49.599 Gen X says, you know what, the savviest of the group should decide. 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:57.760 So it doesn't have to be the head of the organization, it doesn't have to be the manager, it doesn't have to be the person who's nominally in charge. 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:06.239 Um, it has to be the person who can make the best and most sensical and uh most economic and most efficient decision. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.679 So whoever can come up with that, sure, will do that. 00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.800 Whoever's got the greatest understanding of the situation. 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:13.760 Right. 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:15.599 And millennials. 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:20.239 Uh the millennials, and I think Gen Z do this hand in hand. 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:26.480 Um those two generations will say, you know what, we'll decide all of these things together. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:33.519 We'll come to a decision making, uh uh, we'll come to a decision together after weighing all options. 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:44.960 And if we as a group can't collaborate and decide, then maybe we'll defer to the boss again, so long as we get that explanation from the boss as to how the decision was made. 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:55.840 And so I I mentioned at the very beginning the uh traditionalists who were educated in that very discipline-oriented classroom, you know, straight lines, alphabetical order. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:01.519 Um, Gen Y, the Millennials and Gen Z were not educated like that. 00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:14.960 They learned arbitration and group decision-making skills in elementary school, in in the group setting, and sitting in a circle, in having your your chairs face each other and doing everything as group work. 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:28.719 Um, so they really are very comfortable with group decision making and will um uh ultimately defer to an authority if the group has proved to be um unsuccessful in coming to a consensus. 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:33.519 So they're very peer-to-peer connected and small d democratic. 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:40.079 Small D-democratic and and remember also these are the two generations that are most technologically savvy. 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:48.880 So everything is done via group text, via group me, group chat, you know, uh uh the the uh the WhatsApp. 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:54.559 Um and so everything is is always done in a um on a collaborative thread. 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.880 So that leads really well into the next discussion, which is about communication. 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:02.559 And of course, that is massive in the legal practice. 00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:11.199 So I would like to break down how each generation prefers to communicate, and then on the flip side, also talk about how you can lose them if you're not careful. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.920 So we will start with the elders. 00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.800 Sure. 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:28.320 So traditionalists will will um remember they grew up in the print and radio era and they were taught proper penmanship, the Palmer method, they were taught formal uh letter writing and memo writing skills. 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:32.079 This generation also favors face-to-face communication. 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:52.800 So uh if you have either co-workers or supervisors or subordinates who are a member of the traditionalist generation, um it might be best to schedule a meeting with them, to sit down and actually have a check-in and say hello and get then get to the topic that you need to discuss or the issue that you're having. 00:43:52.800 --> 00:44:06.400 And then uh the best method is to memorialize that face-to-face meeting in a formal written memo, um, or send a letter, um, or take handwritten notes, or uh document it for a file. 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.679 It is a much more institutionalized method of communication. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.360 It's not just a hey, let me pop in your office and run something by you. 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:15.599 And are boomers pretty much the same way? 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:33.039 So boomers went to work in the era of typed formal memos and they're also trained in formal writing skills, um, but they grew up in the broadcast era watching TV much more than listening to radio, which created a higher standard for presentations and put emphasis on the visual. 00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:54.559 So another jury tip if you have um boomers and gen Xers on your jury, make sure that you have um some visual display and s and have in some way incorporated um visual technology to tell your story because this is a

generation that grew up with pictures in front of them, and so they um are are very much in favor of that method of communication. 00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:00.559 So they like their demonstratives, and I would imagine that all the generations that follow do as well. 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:02.159 They they certainly do. 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:05.599 It's funny because Gen X just says, you know, what are what are memos? 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:07.760 Why are we reducing this to a memo? 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.639 Um are we able to, this is a a generation that's comfortable meeting virtually. 00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:20.159 They grew up in a global world and and began to embrace new technologies in the form of email and cell phones. 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:30.960 Um and this and Gen X, more so than the last two generations that we spoke spoke about, um, would appreciate immediate information and response. 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:38.800 So they're not, they're beginning to be not as comfortable with that lag time between sending a question and receiving an answer. 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:41.199 And fewer meetings, I suppose. 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:42.639 Far fewer meetings. 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.199 You know, why it couldn't this have been an email, right? 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:46.800 Yeah, the old cliche. 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.079 There's a reason for it. 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:50.320 What about millennials and Gen Z? 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.920 Are they very different? 00:45:52.480 --> 00:46:01.599 They are, uh, and I and I blame the things that we carry around in our hands, in our pockets, in our purses all the time because smartphones. 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:12.559 They grew up with wireless video, um, they they grew up uh playing playing video games and and talking to people around the world uh while playing video games that they never met before. 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:17.280 Um so the world is literally at their fingertips at all times. 00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.480 So a text response is perfectly fine. 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:26.960 Uh sending, sending a text or uh a DM when you have a work question is perfectly fine. 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:39.280 Informal communication, like abbreviations and you know, the the slang that we use via text, L O L and you know, uh SMH or whatever we say to each other is also And emojis. 00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:41.519 And emojis, right, are are perfectly fine. 00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:48.400 Just make sure that you're using the right emojis if you're talking to Gen Zers because they they will tease you if you're using the wrong emoji. 00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:57.119 Um but but according to these two generations, that that need or that over-reliance on formality is a waste of time. 00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:02.800 And again, they're looking at the fast track and they're looking at being the most efficient and effective generation. 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:07.440 And why write an entire memo when I can just fire off a text message about it? 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.519 What about voicemails and just calling somebody up on the phone? 00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:15.760 So I I saw a funny quote this morning that said, It's the year 2025. 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.719 Now I read voicemails and listen to books. 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.400 So and so it's it's so it's like that, right? 00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:37.360 So I I think that um anyone who has an office line still or anyone who still has a voicemail set up uh probably appreciates being able to read the transcript of it via email or read the transcript of it on your on your screen, on your voicemail screen. 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:56.559 Um so when possible, if it is a relatively short question or something that doesn't need to be so formally memorialized, I would say send it as a quick message, a slap message or a Teams message or whatever platform you're using and uh just expedite the process if you're dealing with someone in Gen Y or Gen Z. 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:01.519 Law is one of those industries where apprenticeship is really important. 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:06.159 Mentorship and guidance from those senior to you are also important. 00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:15.039 So, next I want to talk about how to give feedback or critiques on performance and work product in a way that is optimal for each generation. 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:21.519 Or you might say, how do we communicate in a way that someone from another generation will be most receptive? 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:44.960 Professor Bratchett, you mentioned a moment ago that older generations are very no news is good news, so to speak, and that younger generations think to varying degrees, I suppose, that instant feedback in the moment is more helpful to their skills development than holding off and waiting for a formal performance review. 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:54.960 Nowadays, Gen Z lawyers are certainly receiving feedback from their supervising attorneys who are either Gen X or millennials. 00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.639 So let's start there. 00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.880 I would say they're certainly receiving feedback from millennials. 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:29.199 I th I think almost a decade ago in 2017, Lil Lizzie McClellan um did a seminal series of articles on millennials in big law, and she noted that millennials, as we've discussed today, make up the largest generational group among lawyers at large and mid-sized firms, and that the numbers starkly illustrate the reality facing law firm leaders that millennials will soon take over the profession in sheer numbers, and soon enough they'll dominate leadership positions and partnerships as well. 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:44.320 So I think when we are thinking about who the leaders are in our profession, we absolutely have to include uh millennials just just because of their again, the their sheer numbers and their their the the prevalence in in terms of their um population. 00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:50.159

And so how do they like to both give and receive feedback or or critiques? 00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:52.719 So I'll I'll briefly start with Gen X. 00:49:52.719 --> 00:50:02.000 Um I think Gen Xers um appreciate uh real-time feedback uh without a lot of fluff. 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.079 They don't have the time or the patience for it. 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:07.440 They say, just tell me what you think, um, shoot from the hip. 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.519 Uh I I don't need the disclaimers. 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:17.199 Um, just uh let me know how I did so that I can get back to work or get the continue getting the work done. 00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:32.159 Um and they don't necessarily need a um a form or um an annual review, um, but they they do expect to know how they're doing along the way with with any project they're working on. 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:39.920 But um boomers kind of expected those scheduled appraisals, whereas um Gen Xers, they don't they don't need that done at the same time every year. 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:46.880 They're not expecting a meeting to be set, they just want to know how they're doing and however that can be communicated on a regular basis is fine. 00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.760 And then just incorporate it into their work right away. 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:50.320 Right. 00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:51.679 Millennials. 00:50:51.679 --> 00:51:01.360 Well, remember, millennials and Gen Zers uh also uh we mentioned the the the video games and the and constant video gaming, just put the score on the screen, right? 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:02.320 Just like a video game. 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:04.000 They want instant feedback. 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:19.280 So um this the generation, the the millennials and Gen Zers were raised by baby boomers who focused on their children's self-esteem and they used listening and problem-solving tactics. 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:28.639 And so that those those weren't necessarily um parenting attributes that the boomers received as children. 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:37.519 That wasn't exactly the parenting method that was being done by um the greatest generation at the the turn of the 20th century for the baby boomers, right? 00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:50.719 So um I think Gen Y and Gen Z want short, concise, frequent feedback, but they are also interested in it being constructive and dare I say kind. 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:56.079 I think that Gen X has a a bit more of a harder shell, so to speak. 00:51:56.079 --> 00:52:02.639 And so when they say, just tell me what you think, give it to me plain, uh shoot from the hip, be as candid as you need to be. 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:19.199 I think that Gen Y and Gen Z still appreciates um uh having their confidence built and being told if they could do something better, how they could do it better, and and being given that opportunity uh to achieve and to rise. 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:28.480 I could see how with older generations they might look at that need or desire as being kind of soft, squishy. 00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:29.360 What do you think? 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:38.559 Yeah, I I think that's I think that's fair, and I think that's where a lot of the tension uh between the generations in the legal workplace is coming from. 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:43.440 I know that um Jordan Furlong has a a great substack. 00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:50.159 Um, and he's got one piece from a couple of years ago called The Generations War Comes to the Law Firm. 00:52:50.159 --> 00:53:11.920 And he undertook a series of interviews with older generation lawyers and uh Gen Y and Gen Z lawyers, and the perception of Gen Z lawyers um by baby boomers and Gen Xers was really unkind and pretty harsh, to be honest. 00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.559 They were referred to as Zoom associates. 00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:22.239 Um, the older lawyers were saying that Gen Zers and Gen Yers lack initiative and ownership and personal responsibility. 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:25.360 They were saying that they don't want to work hard, they're shiftless. 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:45.760 I think that is also a perception that's uh developed because Gen Z uh members of the profession will likely quit a job within two years, and one third of those who will quit a job within two years of starting it would actually exit a job without having another one lined up. 00:53:45.760 --> 00:54:05.599 Um, and so there are a lot of reasons for that, and because of that practice, um they have, I think, developed perhaps unfairly a reputation among the baby boomers and the Gen Xers as undedicated workers. 00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:20.800 But um, as Jordan Furlong um uh noted in in that same subset sub stack as a result of the interviews he he undertook, um, Gen Z were would respond, quote, it's not that I don't want to work hard. 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:25.360 I'm just not as willing to be abused as some of my peers were. 00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:33.360 And then there's um uh another quote that says Boomers and Gen X have only themselves to blame for my generation. 00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:40.639 They took on, they took all of their generational economic advantages and pulled up the ladder behind them. 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:41.679 Ouch. 00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:43.199 Yeah. 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:50.719 So so there is clearly a lapse of understanding and and a lapse of uh of communication. 00:54:50.719 --> 00:55:10.239 And and frankly, with some of these quotes, a lack of respect um for the different generations and for their different styles of not only the practice of law, but in some of these instances, these weren't just complaints about approaches to employment or approaches to uh task execution. 00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:26.800 These were character judgments and and they're rooted in a sort of moral indignation and almost a resentment of the perceived uh rejection of older generations and older lawyers' values. 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:52.719 And so there really is a reckoning and

a coming together that we need to see so that the generations understand each other and respect each other and can work together so that there is um a legacy in place, so that there is continuity of our practice and that law firms don't um begin to shudder and fold because there is no one to take over when that older generation eventually retires. 00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:53.360 Right. 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:58.639 And that's part of what we're talking about here today, why this episode feels so important. 00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:13.599 I had um done some research on some quotes, and I found one by George Orwell, who wrote that each generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it. 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:22.079 And I think it's just a peculiarity of human nature that we imagine ourselves to be the smartest, the brightest, the most gifted. 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:32.480 When in fact, we've all been in that Gen Z boat, you know, thought to be lazy, dumb, entitled screw-ups who were gonna lead to the fall of humanity. 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:34.960 I I completely agree. 00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:50.639 And that and that first round, and I shouldn't say first round, I mean I'm I'm talking about um a generational shift and tensions that uh existed within, you know, documented, um, memorialized history of our profession just in the 20th century. 00:56:50.639 --> 00:57:08.559 But um, you know, if if you look at, and I know that I've mentioned it a couple of times, but if you look at the shift that happened in um the 1980s, so from roughly 1980 to 1990, um the the legal profession in the United States absolutely boomed. 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:09.280 The number of U.S. 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:19.599 law firms with more than 50 lawyers tripled, um, the number of lawyers in those firms rose by more than two more than double by about 120%. 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:38.239 Um, and the the average age of the US lawyer um between 1960 and 1980 dropped from uh 46 as an average age to 39, which means that we had all these young whippersnappers uh coming into the profession in in the late 70s, early 80s. 00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:51.679 And again, we were seeing that transition from the more uh private sector, more elite, small, quote unquote dignified, exclusionary law firms of the mid-century. 00:57:51.679 --> 00:58:01.199 And they were being overwhelmed by that Michael Douglas era, 1980s, 80s era greed mentality. 00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:03.599 And I don't say that as a as a criticism. 00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:13.039 Again, it's just an observation of the shift in how our uh our our our profession looked and was guided and was structured. 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:33.519 Um, so we we saw that tension before, and we saw um the lawyers, the baby boomer lawyers coming in to the profession um at a time when perhaps the the silent generation and the traditionalists uh had a very different picture for what the practice of law should be or should look like. 00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:36.079 And so again, we have seen this before. 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:41.440 It's just about surviving the tension and having the generations respect and understand each other. 00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:43.760 Yes, it is. 00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:52.159 Um we've talked about how generations like to receive criticism or are open to receiving criticism, perhaps I should say. 00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:56.480 How then do they like to be recognized and rewarded for their good work? 00:58:56.480 --> 00:59:08.719 We've talked a little bit about awards and plumb assignments, sabbaticals, mentorship opportunities from the traditionalists, and the boomers like their pay increases, promotions, and time off. 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:10.320 What about Gen X? 00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:14.079 Uh Gen X likes opportunity for growth. 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:16.639 They like flexible benefits, time off. 00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:20.480 Again, they're looking for um work-life balance. 00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:37.280 And so anytime there can be that um that that personal that personal opportunity that's let me step away from work and feel better as a person, it will make me refreshed and make me more willing to come back and work even harder. 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:40.639 So it's taking them as an individual worker into account. 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:41.039 Yes. 00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:42.079 More so than in the past. 00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:42.639 Definitely. 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:45.599 And I would assume that's true for millennials as well. 00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:59.840 Yes, but even more so because millennials and Gen Zers want those flexible benefits like hours and schedules and telecommuting, but they're also looking for enjoyment when they are in person and when they're not working remotely, they're looking for fun at the workplace. 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:07.440 They're looking for it to be actually a place that they enjoy going and get a a sense of personal fulfillment out of. 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.000 It's not just to you know stamp the time card and and clock in for the day. 01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:17.039 It's actually something that is meant to be personally uh fulfilling and enjoyable. 01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:20.159 But hey, I thought it was called work for a reason. 01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:22.960 Yeah, well, you sound like a boomer, Marcy. 01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:26.239 So, you know, I'll say this. 01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:32.239 The um I think the older generations would say, um, I'll relax once the work is done, right? 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:34.880 The work itself uh is fun. 01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:39.119 I am I am I'm here because I am lucky to be here. 01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:44.719 I am thankful to have a job, um, and I will I will respect the people who gave me this opportunity. 01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:51.920 Um, whereas Gen Xers, as usual, are much more pragmatic and frank about things, and they say

it's work. 01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:52.880 It's not meant to be fun. 01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:54.000 Stop trying to make it fun. 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:59.440 Like, let me just do what I have to do in the time that I have to do it in, and then I can I can call it a day. 01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:00.480 Work to live. 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:03.119 Whereas work to live, exactly. 01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:10.800 And again, our Gen Y and Gen Z friends say, I'll get more done if I have fun while doing it. 01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:19.920 Um, and so it's it's finding how to make that the workplace um work for everyone who is accessing it. 01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:41.119 So remember the millennials and and beyond Gen Z were raised on um Sesame Street and learning as a fun diversion, video games and and and other things that made um information receipt and retention um colorful and enjoyable and and diversionary. 01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:46.960 Um and so this generation says if it's more comfortable, um then I'll get more done. 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:50.079 Focus on the results and not the hours I put in. 01:01:51.119 --> 01:02:11.280 So we've talked about all of these traits and I want to bring them together and kind of create a picture for what law firms and organizations should be doing with all of this information so that they build um legal teams that bridge the gap and they make the most of each generation's strengths and their values. 01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:15.039 So, what should law firms be doing with all of this information? 01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:19.519 Well, um, I think there are is plenty to do. 01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:27.760 I think that there um are different recruiting strategies that can be adopted to attract age-diverse candidates. 01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:49.920 So, for instance, uh baby boomers might react to uh mentions of a company's awards or other successes, um, while millennials maybe care more about personal development or um opportunities to engage in um uh social activism or other activities regarding social responsibility, um, advertise. 01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:53.440 Law firms can certainly advertise on various channels. 01:02:53.440 --> 01:03:06.000 So the baby boomers, you know, would look at professional networks or referral sources while Gen Z is uh looking for much more interactive online campaigns and social media. 01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:28.719 Um and it candidates to to to uh and applicants for certain law firms should be encouraged to ask questions during interviews to find out what um that workplace is looking for and what their expectations are, again, so that there is immediate feedback and and they understand the environment and the culture and they can make an informed decision. 01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:57.039 Um, I think there really is a um a need to avoid stereotypes, even though we have uh talked so much about what historical events have marked these generations and what they're known for and what they're uh generally most comfortable with, you really do have to talk with your coworkers, with your subordinates, with your supervisors, and learn about each of them as an individual. 01:03:57.039 --> 01:04:00.880 Um I I if I if we have time, I can tell you a real quick story. 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:14.559 I remember I was in court once and um I was a young DA, I was maybe early mid-20s, and my opposing counsel on the case was a defense attorney, and he had a I I happened to see his phone. 01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:18.559 You know, he turned his phone toward me and I saw the wallpaper picture on his phone. 01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:27.119 And it was a picture of uh Cary Grant and Ingrid Bergman from uh the 1946 hit Alfred Hitchcock movie Notorious. 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:36.400 And uh, you know, he turned it toward me and and frankly, very smugly and not very nicely, he said, Do you even know who these people are? 01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:40.800 And and I said, Yeah, it's Carrie Grant and Ingrid Bergman and notorious. 01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:44.719 And his face, like I really think that he was gonna hit the floor. 01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:50.480 Like I thought he was gonna pass out that this, you know, 20-something new and Alfred Hitchcock movie. 01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:51.519 Hey, guess what, buddy? 01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:53.360 I was raised on Alfred Hitchcock movies. 01:04:53.360 --> 01:04:55.280 I've seen every Alfred Hitchcock movie, you know. 01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:58.960 Um I have the box set still at my house and I watch them on VHS. 01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:09.280 Uh so it's it is it is not it is not productive to come to um hasty generalizations and faulty assumptions before you get to know the individual. 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.559 And that's that that shouldn't be news to anyone. 01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:29.039 Um so I think that customizing the approach to any member of any generation really does lead to improved working relationships, improved communication, and frankly, quite much more satisfied uh employees and co-workers and practitioners overall. 01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:32.960 And the one of the ways that you do that is you ask them what do you want? 01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:34.079 What do you need? 01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:37.199 What do you what are you getting out of this? 01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:42.159 And and then actually listen to what they're saying and take it under advisement. 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:54.400 And I think it it might be harder, especially for law firm leaders who might be of the older generations, the baby boomers and the Gen Xers, and even at this point, some of the elder millennials. 01:05:54.400 --> 01:06:01.119 But I I encourage them to consider allowing for more independence and autonomy. 01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:08.000 Gen Zers in particular are ambitious individuals who like having their own independence. 01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:20.480 And so perhaps implement strategies for work-life balance to mitigate burnout and stress because they are

significant issues and significant concerns for Gen Z lawyers. 01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:38.639 Embrace new technology, empathize with mental health needs, um, and really incorporate culture and norms in your work environment where those mental and physical health needs are acknowledged and supported. 01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:43.039 And I think it's re important to remember that a rising tide lifts all boats. 01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:52.719 So it's not just the younger generations who benefit from mental health awareness or flexibility with working from home on occasion. 01:06:52.719 --> 01:06:54.719 It affects the older ones too. 01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:55.920 It really does. 01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:59.679 And we are talking about the success of the profession. 01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:09.760 We're talking about the longevity of the profession, and we want that to be something uh that doesn't have to be reinvented every generation. 01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:19.519 We want to see continuity, and the only way that we can do that is for there to be meaningful collaboration between the generations when it is time to pass the baton. 01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:20.559 Indeed. 01:07:20.559 --> 01:07:23.840 Well, it'll be interesting to see how the next several years go. 01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:31.440 And I'm really appreciative that you came on board again to talk about generations and how we can all learn from each other. 01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.639 Do you have time for a couple of sign-off questions before you go? 01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:35.599 Oh, of course. 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:36.239 I love these. 01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:36.960 Great. 01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:43.760 So I remember from our last chat, you always make a lot of time for pleasure reading, no matter how busy you are. 01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:45.679 So what have you been reading lately? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.880 Uh so I have had a great summer of reading. 01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:49.840 I will be honest. 01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:54.000 I I have had like one five-star read after another after another. 01:07:54.000 --> 01:08:01.199 Um, I think my favorite so far this summer uh was a book called Uh God of the Woods by Liz Moore. 01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:03.280 I believe it's her second book. 01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:11.280 Uh, it was a follow-up, it was completely unrelated to, but it's the follow-up to her first book, which was called Long Bright River, and it was set in Philadelphia. 01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:24.000 Now, I am not objective at all in this recommendation because Liz Moore teaches in the uh creative arts master's program here at Temple, and she is an incredible teacher and writer and human being. 01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:38.720 And during COVID, when my book club was meeting online and discussing her first book, Long Bright River, she crashed our book club and and came and said hello and gave us a personal kind of um author question and answer session about the book. 01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:43.039 So um I

I probably have a lot of uh personal favoritism for that one. 01:08:43.039 --> 01:08:45.039 But um, so that one was excellent. 01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:50.960 I am only about a tenth of the way through a book by Frederick Bachman right now called My Friends. 01:08:50.960 --> 01:09:00.239 I have read a lot by Frederick Bachman and uh really, really love his style, love his voice, love the way that he tells stories. 01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:10.800 Um I feel like it's an acquired taste, and and a lot of the feedback that I've seen and read from various book clubs uh is that people either really, really love his style or really, really can't stand it. 01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:13.680 So I am in the uh former category. 01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:19.199 I really, really love it, and I'm I'm loving my friends, which is um his, I believe, his latest publication. 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:21.840 Do you mostly read fiction in your off hours? 01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:23.199 So here's my rule. 01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:27.680 I I always have a fiction and a nonfiction going simultaneously. 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:33.840 Um so even if I just read 10 pages a day of nonfiction, I I have to have both going at the same time. 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:34.479 Okay. 01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:37.760 So then the last question, of course, is what is your dream vacation? 01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:40.640 I I I thought you were gonna ask me that. 01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:47.439 And I I wish I had a really like off the wall and creative example for you. 01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:49.359 Um, and I don't, because here's the thing. 01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:53.600 I love to travel and I will go anywhere and do anything. 01:09:53.600 --> 01:09:58.239 I think I probably have, you know, 40 or so places on my bucket list. 01:09:58.239 --> 01:10:02.239 And and and I was thinking today, I've only been to three continents and I want to go to more. 01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:07.359 Uh, but but I I you know, a bucket list item for me is definitely Australia. 01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:12.000 Um, but uh you you give me a plane ticket and I'll be happy to go anywhere. 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:16.079 Well, thank you so much for this great discussion, Marian. 01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:24.720 This, as always, was such a pleasure, and I think that you've given us lots of tips to try and avenues to pursue. 01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:28.479 And we'll just stay tuned and see what happens in the next several years. 01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:32.159 I I certainly hope so, and thanks so much for having me, Marcy. 01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:34.399 I think this is a really important conversation. 01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:40.800 So if we have helped anybody in their intergenerational communication, I will consider it a success. 01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:44.880 So that is a wrap on this month's episode. 01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:49.279 Please check the show notes for the articles that Professor Bracha mentioned. 01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:57.840 I don't know where you land among the long span of generations, but all of us at Nita are so glad to have you listening and learning. 01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:04.800 We hope you'll share this episode or any of the previous 70 episodes with your friends and colleagues. 01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:11.920 I'll be back next month with a novel concept that I'm excited to share and learn about right alongside you. 01:11:11.920 --> 01:11:15.760 What trial lawyers can learn from opera singers. 01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:26.800 Until next month's episode, happy lawyering! May the Record Reflect is a Nita Studio 71 production. 01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:34.239 Nita, we are advocacy enhanced, mentorship reimagined. 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:36.560 Welcome to the community.