Ep. 352 Where is God when life is turned upside down? A look at the problem of evil. Part 3 of 3 Mike Bullok의 전체 녹취록

things, this body it says for when this 1 Corinthians 15, 53 to 58 says, for this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:38.639 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come the saying that it's written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:41.840 Oh death, where is your victory, oh death, where is your sting? 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:49.759 The sting of death is sin, the power of the sin is the law, but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:58.319 Therefore, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, for you as much as you know it's your toilet is not in vain in the Lord. 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:04.639 This perfect world is that that is coming, the best possible world. 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:07.360 It's kind of what scripture says is gonna happen. 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:17.840 You look at uh Romans 8 28, it says uh for all for we know that everything works together for good to those who are are called according to his purpose. 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:31.280 Um you know, and that's that's that's uh it's it's it's uh it's not something that is meant to be uh it's not meant to give the uh to give an excuse for everything that happens. 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:40.639 I think but it's basically saying that uh what we're experiencing now is not the end of the story. 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.280 And uh, you know, one day we will be with him. 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:49.520 And this is a life is very short, very short. 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.439 Uh yeah, that's why uh no, first Peter 5, 10. 00:03:53.680 --> 00:04:03.919 It says, after you've suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:09.360 And that's just uh a wonderful, wonderful verse to look forward to. 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.680 You know, that we can say that's our future. 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:12.159 Right. 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:17.839 God is going to perfect us, he's gonna confirm us, he's gonna strengthen us, he's gonna establish us. 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:22.160 And uh, you know, that's that's that's him. 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:31.040 And you know, wait earlier he says, uh, but according to his promise, we're looking for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:53.120 Therefore, my beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to um to be found by him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, so that you're not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your steadfastness, but grow in the grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.439 So that's that's what we want. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:11.040 And uh He we have a living hope, a living hope that uh is uh imperishable, undefiled, won't be won't fade away, that's kept by the power of God reserved for us in heaven. 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.160 That's that's those are wonderful, wonderful things. 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.240 And that's the optimism, that's the hope of Christianity. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:33.199 That since God, since an all-powerful God can destroy evil without destroying free choice, and an outaliving God wants to wants to defeat evil, that there's an assured hope that one day He will defeat evil. 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:34.480 That's the walk of faith. 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:36.560 Yes, it's the walk of faith. 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:39.680 So, what about physical evil? 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:52.000 We kind of alluded to we've already talked about a uh some of the things that happen, you know, that it can happen when there are morally free agents, and and uh we can it's about things it's about decisions we make. 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.800 It can be about decisions others make. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.560 It can be the result of God's judgment or warning. 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.160 I think God God sometimes allows certain things to happen. 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:10.959 Certainly, God allowed things in the old testament to happen that were judgment, that were physical storms, physical things that happened, that were a warning. 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:28.240 The nation of Israel, he said, if you if you if you if you refuse to follow me, he said, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring, I'm gonna not allow your crops to grow, I'm gonna give a famine, I'm gonna give uh, you know, uh you know, all kinds of things. 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.680 You know, people are gonna take come eventually take your land. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:40.959 You know, some of these can be uh the result of God's judgment or warning uh that people need to start thinking about the future. 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:47.839 Some of it can come from Satan and demons, uh, and he is certainly capable of that. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.319 Some of it comes from just the laws that govern a physical time-space uh universe. 00:06:54.560 --> 00:07:07.199 And since we live in a physical world covered by physical laws of energy flow, it's possible that that's the only way that a physical world could be constructed, at least the least the one we're in now. 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:22.959 And so that floods and droughts and earthquakes and fires and tornadoes and other natural uh disasters may be necessary byproducts of this physical world, and that this physical world is necessary for the achievement of the best possible world. 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:27.680 So if you have water for swimming, you're gonna you're gonna have some people that drown. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.360 If you have mountains to climb, some people will fall. 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:37.839 If you have uh cars to drive, some collisions will uh will

occur. 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:46.240 So can God be sovereign and still allow free choice? 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:53.040 Because there's a you know, we call that attention or whatever people would say it's impossible to combine those two. 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:57.040 What would be your thoughts about God's sovereignty and free choice? 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:13.600 Yeah, well, let me just say some of my thoughts on a couple of things before we just end with this thing as uh uh uh Norm Geisler is uh a guy that wrote The Roots of Evil is a good book. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:20.639 Uh he's also got a book, Chosen but Free, a balanced view of divine election. 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:26.399 And uh, you know, he said he said something uh interesting. 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.839 He said that uh that God's predestination and human choice are a mystery. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:37.200 God's predestination and human free choice are a mystery, but not a contradiction. 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.639 They go beyond reason, but not against reason. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:46.960 That is, they're not incongruous, but neither can we see exactly how they're complementary. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:09:06.000 I think that God, you know, and this is gonna be the this is one of the major areas that uh Christians disagree on, but I think uh that uh uh God had infallible foreknowledge of the future, uh including our free acts. 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:16.879 And if he had that, then everything that happens happened in history was predetermined, even our free acts. 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:26.159 But that does not mean those actions were not free, it simply meant that God knew how we were going to use our freedom, and he knew it for sure. 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:36.720 Early Augustine said that our free actions are are determined from the standpoint of God's foreknowledge, but they're free from the vantage point of our choice. 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:47.600 He had this one thing that shows how this the logic of this he said that no one's ever demonstrated a contradiction between predestination and free choice. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:53.679 And uh he added this little thing that's uh I like to kind of look at. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.039 He said, God knows all things, including the future. 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:02.320 Okay, and God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the cross. 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.799 Acts 223 clearly indicates that. 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:15.200 Therefore, Jesus must die on the cross because if he hadn't died on the cross, then God would have been wrong in what he foreknew. 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.960 But an all-knowing, omniscient God cannot be wrong in what he knows. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:29.919 But Jesus, it says in John chapter 10, verses 17 and 18, freely chose to die on the cross. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:36.720 Therefore, both one and the same event is both predetermined and freely chosen. 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:47.840 Okay, and so the same logic

applies that applies that apply uh applies to predetermination and free choice and either salvation or condemnation. 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:55.600 God knows what we're going to do, he foreknew, he foreknows what comes to pass, therefore it has to come to pass. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:06.480 It's just part, it's part of this predetermination and God knowing about it, all happen intuitively and they happen coextensively. 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:14.960 In fact, this is if if you read uh 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 2, it says, We're chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:26.879 Okay, now it's interesting that election is not based on foreknowledge of God's choices, but it's not exercised independent of it either. 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:44.879 John Walver, who is the president of uh Dallas Seminary for a long time, at least when I was there, said that that verse, uh, 1 Peter 1 2 teaches not a logical order of election in relation to foreknowledge, but the fact that they're coextensive. 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:46.159 They happen together. 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.320 You can't have one without the other. 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.840 God can't know the future without knowing what's gonna happen. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:54.240 He does. 00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:04.559 And that's one of one of the reasons that we can have our names written in the Lamb's Book of Life before time before we created time. 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.720 He knew already who was gonna accept him and who wasn't. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:13.759 But that doesn't not mean that we were not free to make that choice. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.159 He just knew what choice we're gonna make. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.519 So I think human freedom is a delegated sovereignty. 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:29.360 God, uh God made man sovereign over his own moral destiny, part of that, and that's part of being created in the image of God, I think. 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:36.559 God is still the source of salvation through Christ, and free will is the means by which it's received. 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:44.000 And the Bible teaches that both divine sovereignty and human responsibility sometimes are in the same passages. 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:53.519 Uh, I remember uh when I went through this in seminary, um, I had a professor, Phil Hooke was his name. 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:55.679 Um he said this about it. 00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:00.480 He said, God's not afraid to say that he planned, designed, and accomplished salvation. 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:01.679 That's the first thing. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.879 The whole thing is his design, he's the source of it. 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.120 Okay, everybody believes that. 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:20.879 In scripture, he says, secondly, scripture decides this describes the decision-making process of man to be a real process wherein responsibility for the decision is implicit. 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.279 Okay, so we all have a decision-making responsibility. 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.360 Uh you you re you can't read the word of God without believing that. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:55.600 In fact, the whole thing, if affirming God will not violate the free choice of any any human being in order to save a person is Arminian, he says every major church father from the beginning, including Justice, Irenaeus, Clement, Tartullian, Origen, Cyril, Gregory, Jerome, Chrysosome, early Augustine, Anselm, Thomas, Aquinas, they all would have been called Arminian. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:04.240 To say that you don't have a decision that is yours to make, I think is I don't think is right. 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:13.600 But the third thing he said is that these two perspectives rest side by side in scripture without any apparent contradiction from God's perspective. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.919 The beautiful thing is that God has done something about evil. 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:29.440 Uh, he's capable of, he's ultimately in control of history, and he's capable of using our choices and evil to bring about that which is going to be for his glory and our greatest good. 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:46.559 In fact, one of the things that uh I think that he's allowing evil for is to say that when it's all said and done, there isn't going to be any possible thing that can happen that is going to be able to challenge him. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:53.759 He he's going to demonstrate that he's going to be able to have control over everything. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:05.759 Um, and so and he's so he's capable of using our choices and evil to bring about that which is for his glory and our greatest good. 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:11.440 I mean, uh God, God doesn't wish for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.960 Whosoever believes in him has eternal life, he says. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:22.960 First Timothy 2, 4 says God desires for all men to be saved, not just the elect, he desires for all men to be saved. 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:34.960 Um and so it's only the elect that are going to be saved, but that's that's basically who based on his predetermination and his and his uh election. 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:55.759 Um He sent his innocent son to experience the worst of evil and suffering for us, and by faith we can experience God's love and have hope that one day he will come again to destroy evil and allow us to experience the purpose for which he created us. 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.840 And that's that's the beauty. 00:15:57.919 --> 00:15:58.960 Uh that's the beauty. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:06.639 Uh at the heart of this whole story stands the cross, where evil did its worst and met its match. 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.919 And it's there that love shines forth. 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:12.240 So excellent, yeah. 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:14.000 Let me ask another question. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:19.759 I this is this is excellent, Mike, what you've shared with us over this

over these podcasts. 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:32.000 Um speak now, maybe as a pastor or a friend, to the hurting person who has lost a loved one, lost a child, lost a baby. 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.759 What uh what encouragement would you have for them? 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:42.639 Uh because they just can't see how this could possibly work out, you know, for God's glory. 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:50.399 Part of it is you have to recognize that if they were if they were a believer, you are going to see them again. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:59.679 That's that's the that's the that's the beautiful thing about about uh our salvation. 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:01.519 It is secure. 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.880 And uh that that's a whole nother story that uh that we have. 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:12.160 But scripture indicates that uh it's not we're not gonna be able to lose that salvation. 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:21.759 That we are his, we're held by his hand, and God uh certainly you can say God allowed that to happen. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.400 Uh we all are gonna die at some point. 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:36.160 Um to me the the peace is is knowing that you belong to him, and uh this is why it's important to you know, with your kids at an early age, try to share the gospel with them. 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:51.599 You know, yeah, make sure God is loving, God is love, God is not in trust, and he's he's not gonna send anybody to hell uh that's uh that didn't choose that. 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:52.400 Right. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.240 And uh, you know, some people say, Well, can you get a second chance? 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:04.640 Well, there comes a point where God says he knows where people have come to the place where they're locked into their viewpoint. 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.599 And yeah, so he says, Okay, your will's gonna be done. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:10.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:18.559 And uh hell, hell, I remember hell, hell is a place where man is condemned to his own freedom. 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:20.640 Interesting. 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.160 Yeah, you wanted that freedom, here it is. 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:27.359 Yeah, so it's hard. 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.359 I mean, uh we don't have the answers. 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:41.440 We have uh we have our faith in the Lord Jesus, we don't see why people are killed in natural disasters, we don't see why my child was taken, but yet we walk by faith, not by sight. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:46.720 Yeah, and uh it's not easy, and it's um in fact it's very difficult. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.039 But it's uh but it is a walk of faith, and that's what he calls us to. 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:56.640 No one can please him unless uh we do come to him by faith in Hebrews chapter 11. 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.279 When tragedy and evil hit close to home, we find it difficult to put the pieces together. 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.440 We may ask, why, Lord? 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.599 Why did you take my child, my parent, my friend? 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.359 He asks us to walk by faith, not by sight. 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:23.599 Hebrews 11 6 says, But without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:33.119 You know, Mike spoke about the fact that as believers we will get to experience this new world and that we will see our loved ones again if they are believers in the Lord Jesus. 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:42.000 We know it's one thing to analyze this topic of evil and suffering from an academic or intellectual viewpoint, but it is quite another to experience it firsthand. 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:50.400 If you are going through difficult times, please know that we care about you and we pray for you that you will sense God's presence. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:20:00.480 Now, in the show notes, we have not only Mike's notes that you can download freely, but there's also a list of helpful books that we think may be a comfort and light to you in your darkness. 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:06.480 Some of these include a book called Harsh Grief, Gentle Hope by Mary White. 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.279 Mary and her husband Jerry lost their 30-year-old son tragically. 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.559 Another book that we have found helpful is by Robert Rogers called Into the Deep. 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:21.599 And that's available only on his website, and that's linked in our show notes. 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:29.759 Many resources from Johnny Erickson Tata, which are well known, but a particular one we would recommend would be When God Seems Unjust. 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.680 And also A Grief Observed by C.S. 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.559 Lewis is a classic book that is very helpful in going through difficult times. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:44.079 And finally, Paul David Tripp wrote a book called Grief, Finding Hope Again. 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:45.759 And that's available on Amazon. 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.559 I put the link to that in the show notes. 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:53.200 Well, I want to encourage you that you can know with certainty your eternal destiny. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.279 Where are you in your spiritual journey? 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.319 Perhaps you just stumbled across this podcast by accident. 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:03.759 Or maybe you've been in the church for a number of years, but have never really been certain of your eternal destiny. 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.519 You are trying, but you just aren't certain about things. 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.000 Have you placed your faith in Jesus alone for eternal life? 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:13.279 Listen to these verses. 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:22.400 John 3.16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:27.440 Ephesians 2.8 and 9, for by grace have you been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:31.119 It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:40.559 And the wonderful promise in John 6.47, where Jesus plainly promises, He who believes in me has everlasting life. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.920 Do you believe in Jesus alone for everlasting life? 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.799 If so, you can be certain of your future in Christ. 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:48.640 That's the best news ever. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.720 He promised everlasting life to all who believe in him for that life. 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.400 Won't you do that today? 00:21:54.640 --> 00:22:00.319 Becoming a Christian does not mean being perfect, nor trying harder, nor trying to obey the rules better. 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.559 It means simply believing, placing your faith in Jesus' promise for eternal life. 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.720 Well, join us next time as together we continue to learn more about making disciples naturally.