Why Neutral Thinking Beats Optimism for High Performance의 전체 녹취록

00:03:52.159 Yeah, right. 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:56.719 So like positive to me is just kind of like I'm positive, I'm in a good mood. 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:04.000 I'm I'm I'm trying to maintain kind of an upbeat, um, I'm good natured kind of attitude or response, which is great. 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.479 And we can kind of and then we talk about so what when is that not great and why is neutral better? 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:17.839 Optimism for me is uh to be optimistic is the belief that things are gonna get better or the or the belief that things are going to go well. 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:23.040 And so optimism in a sense is again, like what is wrong with that? 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:25.199 And I would say, no, optimism, that's great. 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.120 I if I am if someone calls me an optimistic person, I take that as a compliment. 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.240 If someone says I'm a positive person, I take that as a compliment. 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.160 If, and so on, on itself, like both of those things are okay. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:45.600 The way I differentiate the two between optimism and positively, positivity to me is almost more of like um your nature, like how you're how you're choosing to kind of show up, right? 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:46.560 Your attitude. 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.519 Optimism to me is more future-based, right? 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:55.040 It's more, hey, I, you know, if we just keep working at it, I think things are going to get better. 00:04:55.199 --> 00:05:02.480 That's that's been pessimism, right, is hey, it doesn't matter what we do, things aren't gonna things aren't gonna work out. 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:03.839 Hey, we can do all the right things. 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:05.120 I bet you we still lose. 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:05.519 Right. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:05.839 Right. 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:08.879 I'm a lifelong Lions fan, right? 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.519 And so as a Detroit Lions fan, you're you're like, exactly. 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:11.920 Thank you. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:12.879 All right, Cleveland. 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:19.120 All right, so you know, you start you start going like, like, all right, man, lions are gonna lions, right? 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.360 It doesn't matter how good things are going, lions are gonna lions, which is pessimism. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.120 So it's the expectation. 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.920 I think optimism is the expectation of good. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.199 Positivity is is how you're is how you're showing up. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:47.439 So both of those on their own, I would say are fine, but when it comes to us and the work that we do around neutral thinking, we start to get into the nuances of when that actually becomes a negative, when when being positive or optimistic becomes a negative, and why neutral is actually just the better response overall. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:06:01.519 Yeah, and I think that that's the

great, the great question I want to ask you and help our listeners understand is have you seen, you know, can you give us a time or or maybe an example of when force positivity backfires? 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.439 Or maybe maybe it was in you know one of the teams you were working with in the sports world. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:16.240 Maybe it was at a, you know, maybe our corporate situation um without naming names, can you kind of talk about maybe a time where that forced positivity actually held the team back? 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.519 Yeah, I think in the work that we do, especially with Limitless Minds, right? 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.519 With with all the corporate clients that we do and corporate partners that we do. 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:28.000 And then obviously on my own with with Liv Yes and I do some of that corporate work as well. 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:40.399 And we all know, like when you you sometimes you're you're talking to leaders, and I would say, you know, kind of what what are the messages that we're constantly hearing over and over again from our corporate partners or people that are interested, is what are the day-to-day problems they're dealing with? 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:44.399 They're dealing with a ton of a ton of uncertainty, a lot of adversity. 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:49.040 I mean, we can get into AI, people are afraid of their of their jobs, they're afraid of their well-being. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:54.879 There's there's constant that uncertainty creates, can create a constant uh dysfunction. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:07:02.959 And so, you know, it so if if if they bring us in and they're like, hey, we got we need you to go in there and convince them that everything's gonna be okay, right? 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:09.199 That that then gets into, well, well, is everything we we don't know that everything's gonna be okay, right? 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.839 Like, you don't know that everything's gonna be okay. 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:27.600 So when we push positivity and optimism to go convince a team or a group that everything's gonna be okay, that's and and without acknowledging that that there is a ton of change and uncertainty and adversity. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.879 And what do you mean that everything's gonna be okay? 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:32.319 Well, you got you guys just completely eliminated a department. 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:32.800 Right. 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:33.279 Right. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:47.439 And and in fact, you know, I think we were, you know, was on a call recently with a client, and this guy on the Zoom spoke up and he said, Hey, I know you guys are gonna be here next week, and uh, we're gonna do everything we can, you know, to make sure that you guys are all set up. 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:52.160 And he goes, But I'll be honest with you, I don't even know I'm gonna be here by the time that event comes. 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:52.800 Wow. 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:53.279 Wow. 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.199 And like you just this silence on the Zoom, and it's like, yeah. 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:14.319 And so if we're coming in just to push a message of positivity and optimism without recognizing what the real problems and adversity is in the room, that's when that's when you really magnify a bad situation into a worse situation, especially from a from a leadership position. 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:14.639 Yeah. 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:15.040 Yeah. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:21.120 And so I think it sounds like that's a place where you would rather go, hey, we're not gonna come in and talk about positivity and optimism. 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.959 We're gonna deal with reality and what's so. 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.759 And we're gonna deal with the neutrality of that and how to manage that. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.639 Yeah, that's the thing that we do really well from limitless minds. 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:45.919 And and again, I think uh another another prep call recently for a limitless client that that that uh we're going into work with, and they're like, hey, like we've had we've had a ton of success recently, but we don't want them to get complacent. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.080 So can you come in and address that? 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:49.600 And so, like, yeah, that's what we do. 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:55.759 So we're not coming in a limitless minds perspective to address when things are only when things are bad. 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:57.519 And when things are good, right? 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:16.080 What's the power of neutral thinking is it's not about the the good or the bad, it's about having the right mindset that creates or or or or you know motivates or inspires the the behaviors that allow us to be sustainable through the ups and the downs. 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.480 And so if things are going great, awesome. 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:24.159 Let's let's lock that mindset in, but let's really focus on the behaviors of why things are going, uh things are going well. 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.000 And when things are not going well, great. 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:41.679 Let's let's we're gonna bring you those same mindset tools to help you navigate that so again we can shift our focus to to those behaviors that are going to allow us to get through the negative times or the hard times so that we can so that we can continue continue to perform at a high level. 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:44.799 So like from our perspective, like it's like things are going great, awesome. 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.559 Let's let's let's make sure we know why things are doing great so we can keep focusing on that. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:50.159 Things are tough, awesome. 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:56.559 Let's come in and let's focus on the mindset piece so we can shift into those correct behaviors again to get through to get through the difficulty. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:57.600 Yeah, no doubt. 00:09:57.759 --> 00:09:59.600 You you

mentioned neutral a couple times. 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:05.600 You know, this this question has come up in in the past with with folks when we we talk to them about neutral. 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.759 It's like, how how can I be neutral and still show I care? 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:11.519 Like, is neutral about not caring? 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.519 Is it about showing no emotion? 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:15.759 So tell us a little bit how to unpack that. 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:16.960 It's funny, guys. 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:17.360 It's great. 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.840 So my you know, I've got you know, two of my son, my my two sons are still in college, my daughter's out of college. 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:23.919 And uh my wife and I were just in town last week. 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.159 We got to see my my one son run. 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.919 He's a distance runner, so got to see his cross country meet, which is awesome. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.000 He won his first ever cross-country meet, which was like phenomenal, phenomenal to be at. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:38.960 He may have done a podcast with this Josh Liff Right guy that he may have his mindset. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.559 You know, I'm just saying, I'm just throwing it out. 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.159 I think uh he actually gave credit as he as he as he crossed the finish line. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.360 He was like, Thank you, Josh! 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:46.720 He was like, Thank you, Josh. 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:53.360 I just literally did we ever get the results back of whose kids like had more listeners? 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:55.600 Not a competition, not a competition. 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.799 I mean, if we did the competition, we're just gonna stay neutral. 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.840 It's just all I know is that Micah's uh social media presence went through the roof. 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:07.600 Micah now has seven minutes controllers. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:09.200 And Adley's got his own podcast now. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.080 He's doing a lot of stuff right now. 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:13.840 So so thank you, Josh. 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:14.720 That's the point of that story. 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:15.600 Thank you, Josh. 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.039 So got to see got to see Holland win this race. 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.440 And so uh and Shepard, Shepard is is is now kind of he's starting on the soccer team in a center back position, right? 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:38.399 And and Shepard, you wouldn't mind me saying this, has kind of like he's spent his whole career as a soccer player kind of like dealing with a little bit of the anxiety in the nerves about being kind of that last line of defense and not wanting to let the team down. 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.919 And so we're having dinner before before Hollister and I left town to come back to Michigan. 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.480 So we're having dinner, um, shout out to Chipotle. 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.840 So we're having a little family dinner at Chipotle because you know they're boys, they want to eat there, they want to eat there like four times a week. 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.399 And so we're having we're having uh dinner at Chipotle. 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:57.039 And my son, Shepard, who who doesn't tend to be an overly vocal guy, he goes, Hey dad. 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:57.840 I was like, what's up? 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:04.000 And he goes, he goes, uh been really working on been really working on neutral thinking. 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.080 So I'm like, how awesome is that, right? 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:06.879 I was like, all right. 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.679 And I said, well, yeah, man, well tell me, tell me about that. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:10.720 Like, like what do you think? 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:16.080 And he goes, he goes, you know, I'm just he goes, I'm just really trying to avoid the ups and the downs, right? 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:17.679 You know, of the emotions. 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:28.000 And he goes, but you know, but to your point, he goes, you know, so but but but part of me like kind of feels like, oh, whether we win or what whether we lose, I, you know, like I don't care. 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.480 I almost kind of feel like I'm not caring. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:32.639 And I was like, well, well, hold on just a second. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:33.440 I said, that's awesome. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:43.919 I said, listen, this is a great, this is a great time to understand when we're talking about neutral thinking, we're not talking about, A, it's definitely not not caring. 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:48.960 And B, it's not, it's not, it's not having emotion. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.639 Neutral thinking does is not the absence of emotion. 00:12:53.200 --> 00:13:02.080 It's the ability to not rely on the emotions to to uh uh to dictate our response. 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:02.480 Right. 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:07.519 And I and so I said to someone, I was like, listen, buddy, when you like when you're out there competing, right? 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:16.799 That desire, that desire to want to win, that desire to want like and to me, guys, for for the more and more we do this, I feel like that word commit, right? 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:17.440 Commit. 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:25.519 Sometimes when people think neutral, they're like, oh, I shouldn't commit so I don't want to commit so much because that feels too emotional. 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:26.960 It's like, no, no, no. 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.080 The the the freedom is in the commitment. 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.440 What we want to stay neutral to is the outcome. 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:34.639 I love that, right? 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:38.960 Do I want to win more than anything in my being? 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:40.159 I want to win. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.080 And so what do I have to do? 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:50.879 I've got to

fully commit to putting everything I have into this account, into this relationship, into this game. 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:55.679 And then the piece is win or lose, what did I do? 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:56.879 I did everything I could. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:57.840 Yeah. 00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:59.200 I fully committed. 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.000 And so the so the win or the lose, if we win, does that mean it's the best day in the world? 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:05.759 And if we lose, it's the worst day in the world? 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:07.200 No, that's where neutral comes in. 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.120 The neutral is like, hey, like at the end, I did everything that I could. 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.559 Yeah, winning feels great. 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:13.840 Losing stinks. 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:32.000 And yet, what was what the commitment and and and and what neutral allows us to do is focus on the commitment and the commitment to the task at hand, the commitment to the behaviors, doing everything I can to get the desired result, but it's really not about the desired result. 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.879 It was about my commitment to doing everything that I could. 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:35.679 That's so good. 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.120 And I was like, buddy, yeah, yeah. 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.639 So feel it when you want you. 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:43.759 So when you have the the the win, give yourself permission to feel those emotions. 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:48.720 And when you lose, give yourself permission to feel that sting. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.200 Yeah. 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:58.480 Because if we don't have the courage to fully commit everything, then then actually reaching the top of that mountain is just not possible. 00:14:58.799 --> 00:14:58.960 Yeah. 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:00.639 Yeah. 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:01.200 I'm sorry. 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.840 No, I was just saying, I love that word commit too. 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:14.080 Um, and it almost makes me think, and I'd love I'm gonna throw another word out there, and you can tell me how and how and if it aligns with commit, but obsess to obsess with something. 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.240 You know, I see a lot of top performers obsessing over their craft. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.720 Tell us a little bit about what you've seen and and how that it pertains to per uh commitment. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:29.120 Yeah, I I I think it again, because so much of what we're doing, like whether it's optimism, positivity, all this, we're talking about language. 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:33.360 Um like my I have a visceral reaction to obsess, right? 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:38.639 Obsessed obsessed to me, again, this is like this is one person, obsessed to me feels unhealthy. 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.440 Okay. 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:39.919 Right. 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:48.559 Obsessed to me feels like um I'm giving everything in my life to this pursuit of this thing. 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:57.279 And uh uh and and then I and I feel like and in the wake of that is a lot of other things that sort of gets lost in the wake. 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.320 Obsession, obsession, obsession, obsession, obsession. 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:07.840 Where I feel, and when we see it all the time, like, you know, I don't want to throw, I don't want to throw any of the best performers, all the goats, right? 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:24.320 I don't want to throw any particular goat under the bus, but think about some of the goats that we that we celebrate as goats and ask yourself do they seem to have really happy lives beyond their athletic achievement per se. 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:25.120 That's a good point. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:25.360 Yeah. 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:26.720 There's some collateral damage. 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:27.679 There's some collateral damage. 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.399 Do they look really, really happy from that obsession that they had? 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:32.799 Yeah. 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:48.320 And so for me, when I when I think and and I think what the the the athletes or the performers or anything that that I feel like kind of set the standard of like, yes, that's that's to me what what what it should look like is the understanding, like let's just take sports, right? 00:16:48.399 --> 00:17:01.039 Let's say, let's say it's you know, a basketball player, to basically that it's that understanding that that I think neutral helps us get to that basketball, let's say basketball is what I do, basketball is is not who I am, right? 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.799 Swimming is what I do, it's not what I am. 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.880 Being Olympic champion is what I achieved, it's not who I am. 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:17.200 And and so the the I I love it um in uh um uh The War of Art by uh Stephen Pressfield. 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:17.519 Right? 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.960 He really Yes, in the the last he says three parts to the book, and it's a really simple reads. 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.880 What am I probably I've probably given that book away more than any other book over the last 20 years. 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:32.559 He talks about the difference between a professional and an amateur in all aspects of life. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.880 He says, an amateur, an amateur believes he or she is their profession. 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:46.319 The professional understands that they are a whole person, their profession is simply what they do. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.960 And so that that professional approach is, but what are they committed to? 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:56.720 They fully commit, they fully commit to doing their job and doing the work. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:02.000 And then whatever the result is or the outcome, it's never in their control anyway. 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.400 Did I do everything that I could, win or lose, success or not? 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:07.759 Did I do

everything I could? 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:08.079 Yes. 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.079 And at the end of the day, what do you do? 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:16.000 You close the door to the office, or you leave the locker room, or you put the instrument down. 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:28.160 Whatever you do, you go back and you are still this whole complete person that's simply an aspect of it's an aspect of me, it doesn't represent the totality of who I am. 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:28.799 So good. 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.359 And I think it's such a healthy barrier. 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:43.279 And we see this all the time with right, you know, professional athletes that it when they have to retire, how does that void get filled in their life if if your whole identity has been in that void? 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:43.599 Yeah. 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:44.000 Yeah. 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:54.480 Yeah, and that that's gets it gets really scary there too, in terms of when when you've been doing something since you were 10 years old, and now that you're not gonna do that anymore. 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:54.880 Yeah. 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:55.119 Right. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:02.319 And that you're 35, so it's 25 years, you've been playing football, you've been playing basketball, whatever it is, and now you gotta step out of that. 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:03.200 It gets really scary. 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.079 Um, speaking of leaving something, right? 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:12.559 I I think back and I'm thinking about neutral, and I'm kind of curious, and this might be interesting for our listeners to hear. 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:18.799 You know, at the World Cup in 2022, the first game uh was against Wales, correct? 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.079 So that was the first game. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.079 Yeah, so the first and you're winning that game until I think the 85th minute. 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:29.440 And then in the last five minutes, give away PK and uh Gareth, beautiful Bale. 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:29.759 Bang. 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:30.720 He is beautiful. 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:31.599 He's very beautiful. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.559 He has great hair, amazing Travis Thomas-esque hair. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:39.359 Oh yeah, so Gareth, Gareth Bale bang told him that you know the tie. 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:44.799 And and so how do you how did the team, you know, how did you not like panic? 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.319 How did you not get negative? 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:47.920 How did you reset? 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:58.720 And I guess I guess how long did it take that team to reset to to move forward to, you know, you know, go, okay, we now we have England and we gotta get ready for that. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.039 Who you know was one of the best teams in the world. 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:01.839 Right, right. 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:06.319 Yeah, I think, you know, again, I I have to say, right, Greg Berthalter was the was the coach at that time. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.799 Greg is the one who brought me in to be a to be a part of that staff, to be a part of that team. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:26.960 And I think from from a leadership perspective, he sort of modeled um whether he would use the word neutral or not, he really modeled sort of that that that neutral mindset uh for the four years leading up to the World Cup and how he just coached that team and managed that team. 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.039 And as a staff, how we intentionally sort of kind of manage that mindset. 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:35.119 So again, that Wales game, it's the tie that feels like a loss, right? 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.519 Because you you give it away, you give it away late. 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:46.720 And then again, in that this is so applicable to whether it's the corporate world, the sports world, or parenting or whatever, you know, it's like the game ends. 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.200 You did everything you could in that game. 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:50.559 The result is the result. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:55.920 And you've got to be able to look at the result objectively, neutrally, and say, we got a tie. 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:56.240 Right. 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.240 Yes, are we gonna go back and clean things up and are we gonna adjust moving forward? 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:00.640 Yes. 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:06.559 But it's it's it's really by the time we're in the locker room, it's we wanted three points, we got one point. 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:07.920 What do we need to do now? 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:08.960 We need to recover. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:10.559 We're focused on England. 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.839 Our our our our mindset is we're going in there to get three points. 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:14.240 Yep. 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:14.640 Right. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:20.559 And so the whole the finger pointing and the the bemoaning the result, everyone feels that. 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.559 Again, that's the natural human side of it. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.319 We're not saying don't be upset. 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.599 You're not saying, oh man, that's frustrating. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:36.480 Um, but you're just especially as a leader, when you when you're able to model the, hey guys, man, I really felt like we deserve three points out of that one, right? 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.960 But we didn't get it, and we'll clean it up and we'll get better. 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:39.759 We got one point. 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:40.880 This is our reality. 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.240 We've got one of the best teams in the world four nights from now. 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.960 Let's let's start moving in that direction right away. 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:54.880 And then you go into the Ingle game, and we had a lot of off the off the field in the locker room stuff that we were dealing with going into that one, and we get locked in. 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.599 And that's the tie

that kind of felt like a win because again, we like we felt like we we. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.680 play them even better and then same thing. 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.079 Hey, we we felt like we deserved this, but we get the point. 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:12.319 And then all of a sudden and then again we click quickly have to reset and refocus, right? 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:12.799 Right. 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.920 You know, if we there's so many different ways like with anything in life, this is what we were aiming for. 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.960 Here's the result. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:19.920 Right. 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.240 Let's let's reflect on the result. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:25.599 Let's now reset and let's refocus to the next right step. 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.200 Let's refocus to the next objective. 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.480 Let's refocus to the next thing that we can pursue because that's that's right. 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.160 Life is only happening in the now. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.799 Performance is performance is always in the present. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:42.640 So let's let's reset our target and now start doing everything we can now to achieve that target. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.200 You know, again we were before we we we we started recording, I'm still working with you know St. 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.759 Louis University's soccer team, men's soccer team. 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.119 And Josh is asking me, we had Josh talk to the team uh this preseason and uh they're on the road. 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:56.160 Great gear out of it. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.160 I'm just telling you that that's I love that St. 00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.799 Louis shirt. 00:22:58.880 --> 00:22:59.759 I wear that thing all the time. 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.119 It's it's good stuff. 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:14.960 And so uh right they're on the road they're winning late in a game and they give up two late goals one in the last minute of the game to lose two to one right so you you can just think like and like you know I talk to the coaches all the time. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.519 There was a lot of frustration after that game. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:19.119 A ton of frustration. 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:31.440 And so again my message to him and the staff is there is no better staff in the country to help these guys rebound, reset, and be prepared for the next game. 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:31.920 Right? 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:33.200 That's what you guys do. 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:34.079 Let's refocus on that. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:24:48.160 And then you go to the next game three night three nights later they're winning late they give up two bad call penalty kicks to be down two to one here we go again optimism like uh you know night pessimism oh here we go again neutral is we're down two to one right with less than 15 minutes to go and we score two goals late and win three to two and so within the span of four days you give one away in a in in a gut wrenching fashion and then you steal one three nights later in like does this turn the tide of the whole season you know it's like yeah it's all all you can ever do is take the result learn from it right and now let's hey we've got it we've got to we've got to turn the page and be ready to go two nights from now or three nights from now because if we don't we're just now amplifying the loss we're turning one loss into another loss we're turning one bad shot into a series of bad shots we're turning one bad conversation or one bad meeting or one bad one into into a series instead of you know that kind of one moment one task let a bad five minutes ruin the next eight hours right yeah you know what else you know what else just jumps up on me DJ uh Dr. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:25:26.000 Singer campoff learn burn return yeah right that learn burn return thing that she talks about all the time I love that and then you know the other thing that you you were saying there uh it was funny because we did this in Chicago um we wrote it into the Cubsway manual we eliminated the word should you're talking about you know like if you're if you're thinking about what we deserve is your is your is your quote unquote shooting on yourself right yeah so let's not shoot on ourselves yeah I love that and and and too Travis you you you know you unpacked like what's true like where are we at right now yeah and then and then what can we do? 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:45.519 Yeah what can I do as an individual what can we do as a team those two things are so powerful as you're training teams mentally with that whether you're using yes and exercises or any other tools or is there any kind of exercises that the listeners that you could give to the listeners that could help them train in those two two areas what's true and what can I do? 00:25:45.759 --> 00:26:01.519 Yeah what's true and what can I do yeah I mean I I love that you know again like I know you you mentioned it sort of the yes and right and the yes and comes comes from the improvisation for those of you listening who don't know that right the yes and comes from the world of improvisation right which has been a big part of my world for the last 30 years. 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:42.160 And then we got right neutral thinking and so a funny little backstory on on the whole neutral thinking thing is that Trevor Moad our our our our co-founder um neutral thinking uh guru yes uh he when when he and I got first connected so this is probably around 2017 2018 whenever whenever Kirby got the Georgia job yeah um so he was now working with with Georgia's football team and he was you know creating the the the the mental program for them so he he would bring me in just to kind of do some yes and sessions with the staff and then with the players for a couple years in a row and so the first time he and I are in Athens Georgia at the varsity at the varsity diner in Athens Georgia. 00:26:42.319 -->

00:26:44.240 Oh I know that place all too great place. 00:26:44.400 --> 00:27:33.839 Yeah and so we're sitting in the varsity diner and he's like he's like hey man he goes uh let me tell you let I want I want to tell you about neutral thinking like he was like he was in the lab right and he's like cooking like he's like that's right so he's explaining neutral thinking to me and like I'm like Trevor yes love it I was like love it I'm like I'm like dude man that's that's very similar to like what I feel the whole yes and the yes and thing is and he's like what do you mean so you know as I'm I'm describing yes and he's describing neutral thinking I'm like dude you put your chocolate in my peanut butter I was like no you put your peanut butter in my chocolate now we've got Reese's here baby and it's it's boy that that's that's that's a dated commercial for a lot of y'all no that's all all good man we got in a couple references I just want Halloween to be here tomorrow so I can steal my kids' candies. 00:27:34.559 --> 00:28:27.680 So so the yes and from an improvisation standpoint is how does it work is is everything you know if you're trying to create something like you know like we're all anything that we're doing on a day-to-day basis we're just trying to create something we're trying to create the best possible day the best possible you know project job or an athlete the best possible game so you're so what are we doing you're you're going through the day and you're taking action and you're constantly being bombarded with with different stimulus and and either collaboration or conflict and and all these obstacles that are being kind of thrown in your path and like you're trying you have a goal that you're trying to accomplish and then all these sort sort of obstacles or are thrown at you as an improviser like you just learn to what do you do you yes and it you yes and everything that comes they might be good things they might be bad things but you have to yes and them the yes is acceptance the yes is acceptance that yeah this is real because it's being thrown at me so I have to say yes to it. 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.960 So when we get in trouble and this is why neutral think is right when we when people are like oh it's not okay to have negative feelings and emotions yeah what do you mean it's not okay? 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:50.960 You can't control that you're human you're gonna have them don't say no to them right allow yourself to to feel them what we don't want you to do is stay there and believe them and just hang out in them and that's where but we'll but we do not want to be denial thinkers. 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.039 We don't want to go into denial. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.319 So yes from improv yes this is happening do I like it? 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.200 Doesn't matter it's happening yes is acceptance. 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:06.960 Yeah now the and the and is what do I do with it because I still have a goal a direction I'm trying to achieve and I'm trying to move forward. 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.559 So I have to take the thing that I like or don't like and now work with it. 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:26.960 And that's the and then the next thing comes yes and yes and and you're climbing that mountain and it's just yes and yes and yes and well Trevor is describing neutral thinking to me I was like Trevor man that's that's it that's perfect right objectively whatever's happening is simply happening. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.319 Right? 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.480 Your emotions are valid your feelings are valid your judgments are valid they're all valid. 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:41.119 But what's going to get us to the next spot what's going to get us to the top mountain is looking at it for what it is, collaborating with it, right? 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.200 And taking the next right step. 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:44.720 Right based on what? 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.480 Based on the goal and the objective not based on my feelings and my emotions. 00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:20.240 Yeah yeah and so yeah I I mean you you guys know the story but you know I it it's in the book it's in it takes what it takes but when you know they're at the Rose Bowl playing against Oklahoma and Baker Mayfield's tearing them up in the first half and they're down 17 at halftime and Trevor's in the locker room with Kirby and you can see he sees Kirby fuming in the locker room and Trevor goes up to him and Kirby looks at him full of anger and says I'm having a real hard time being neutral right now right Kirby's anger and frustration is valid. 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:40.880 Yeah they're getting their butts kicked it's valid and then Trevor and Kirby you know like all right coach yeah I get that's what we're all feeling but what are the facts what are the facts well we're down 17 points fact but now let's go to why are we down 17 points? 00:30:41.359 --> 00:32:32.000 Is it because the whole team sucks and we're doing everything wrong no no actually we're doing a lot of good things so what are the facts where are the problems based on the facts it's here it's here it's here it's actually not the whole team it's actually just a few key areas let's address those key areas solutions yep right so positivity without solutions becomes toxic positivity right positivity and that's why that's when we're down 17 everything's gonna be fine don't worry about it guys keep keep doing what we're doing what we're doing that's toxic hey someone's gonna save us someone's gonna swoop in and save us we what are you talking about that's when it becomes toxic yeah right that's right neutral is yeah I mean we're pissed we're upset yeah we're but but what but but what are the facts we're losing by 17 points what are the other facts why are we losing by 17 points because of these behaviors these people these behaviors what do we need to do change the behaviors so address the person right to change the behaviors shift the

outcome yes by the way if if everybody listening to this they're like I want to know more about yes and I wish I could see it in action well you can it's on Apple TV it was used by Ted Lasso this season season four yeah and it's really funny because Travis of course is getting all sorts of text messages about that that episode where they bring in yes the the episode is literally called yes and um and then then there's there's coach beard with with with with with with coach thomas and they're sitting there shooting the breeze and obviously they're comedians as well so they've done improv so they know yes and but now they're seeing how they can that they can move it into a sports world so it's really cool if you want a dramatization of how yes hand works. 00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:40.799 I hope you got some money for that too we watched on Ted last time no money no no no guest appearance nothing that's that's bull crap. 00:32:40.880 --> 00:37:47.119 I don't know whoever what is that on Hulu what's that on Hulu that's apple apple TV apple apple TV all right shorty's on Hulu and they definitely do not do yes no offensive about that so funny they set the tone in shorty josh can can I do a quick can I do a quick lightning round I got a quick request yes and you can do lightning round yes all right here we go here we go lightning round all right optimism or neutral which one gets you out of bed no neutral neutral awesome all right this is a selfish one what's your favorite NBA team I think I gotta I think I you guys know you guys know me through and through I'm a I'm a I'm a Detroit Pistons fan through and through bad boys oh my gosh all right finish this sentence neutral is taking the next right step all right book what's your favorite book right now oh I just gave you a shout out to uh I just gave a shout out to to the to to the uh to the war of art I mean win today is phenomenal it's not it's not quite as too handsome handsome author too he's got a not at the same level as confidence is overrated but it's in the same it's in the same two very handsome authors a completely unbiased response not that I have any uh any bias to win today or anything uh I'm reading Daniel Coyle's new book and it's uh it's it's phenomenal it is I'm gonna draw a blank on the name now I want to say it's uh uh it it breaks down um what thriving looks like for an individual and for communities and for those of you don't know Daniel Coyle wrote uh the talent code the culture the culture the culture code he's from Cleveland he's got a he's got a connection with the guardians I know he does some consulting yeah I think he's I think he's in the I think he might be at case western here in Cleveland so shout out to Daniel Coyle I'd love we need to get him in the studio he would be he would be great I might might be able to make a connection there I've read the culture code I've read the culture code yeah that's a that's a great book you're right now I'll have to check his new one out that's awesome yeah it's really really good uh favorite song what comes to mind uh dun dun d dun dun dun that's a deep cut right there it's a deep cut little little 50 cent dun uh okay I'm gonna if if if if if you guys want to cry this this is recent this is recency bias now right so I have to go I've got you know improvisation word association favorite song Olivia Dean so listen um cold play has cold play um what's what's the what's the name of the song I bet you Anna's listening I bet you she can put it into the chat put in the chat cold cold play the video is is um with uh it's a tribute to Dick Van Dyke oh the comedian who who's just turned a hundred and so they they went in and interviewed Dick Van Dyke and basically did the the music video kind of celebrating the life of Dick um Dick Van Dyke and the song it's just this it's just all my love all my love all my love oh my love watch that's watching Casey and Chill chill watch that is Casey and chill win to some light close to me and like my mother close to me and like most of the people have now either fast forwarded put us on 5x speed or have just left the podcast and this was supposed to be speed this was supposed to be lightning round my bad we got like we we just we just went completely down rabbit holes all right on my line watch the video you're gonna cry all right got it uh run into the storm just run into the storm last last quick question then what are you most optimistic about oh man avoid politics avoid politics avoid politics uh what is opposite of politics opposite of politics yes yes i'm most I'm most optimistic about about humanity uh about about about people at the end of the day um choosing good and uh I think if you watch right I get sucked into it I get sucked into my rabbit hole algorithms and I other I other the other side all the time and if we want to tie this back to neutral right like you want to you want to really uh practice neutral thinking at an elite master level take bring it into your politics bring neutral thinking into your politics wow look look at don't don't pay attention to what people say right focus on what people do and so we all get sucked in our algorithms and people like people say some crazy crazy crazy stuff that you're like I can't even believe they would align themselves I can't believe they would say that I can't believe it but like get neutral and be like but what's but what are the facts right when when we're when we're consuming news when we're concerning when we're can consuming behaviors from people it's like well what are the facts and you know working with you know working with a lot of you know teams and athletes and um was you know was working with you know a soccer coach recently who was struggling with a player who was having some really really behavioral issues and he's like try he's like hey I'm getting ready to have a one-on-one with with this athlete here's what I'm thinking like what are your thoughts before I have this meeting

and I'll and and and I was like listen the cool thing was like he was like taking a very neutral approach to the one on one. 00:37:47.199 --> 00:38:24.239 I'm gonna show him the facts I'm gonna show him the tape I'm gonna show him the data this is this is how you're showing up this is your behaviors the facts are the behaviors it's the data right so I said that's awesome I said yes give him that that'll that help that helps diffuse the ego a little bit because you're looking at facts facts over feelings right and then I said but but but then remember right you still love the player you love you love the player but you coach the behaviors right so let him know that in this meeting and after the meeting that you still love him. 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:26.960 But we're coaching we're coaching the behaviors. 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:39.599 The behaviors need to change and so so for me it's I have optimism I have optimism in in in people I have optimism in humanity when that when the rubber meets the road that we're good people are good. 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:47.920 They are and so and sometimes you need to get rocked a little bit to to you know for for change to happen and for people to see what they truly value. 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:53.679 And and I think that that's uh it's uncomfortable but it also is it's it's sometimes necessary. 00:38:53.920 --> 00:39:53.360 So and I you know there's a uh you you mentioned like media there's this uh there's this company called ad Fontez F-O-N-T-E-S-and-the CEO is uh Vanessa Otoro but anyways she she rates all the media outlets and puts them on like far left far right uh reliable not reliable at all she kind of plots them based on the the what they what they're saying and and it and and then who's neutral in between and um you you see the polarization a lot and it's interesting look at look at that you know graph on an ad fontes and see what you're taking in all the time and I think you'll you'll be surprised at you know some of these outlets and and the way they lean andor how reliable or not reliable they are but looking at and trying to find the truth so that you can whatever it is make the take the next right step and I think politics and and news is a great example of that uh Travis for sure. 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:59.280 The root of the root of dysfunction is always lack of communication and collaboration. 00:39:59.840 --> 00:42:49.360 Always yeah so if you think about our country and if we're if you feel like we're dysfunctional right now it's oftentimes because people aren't talking to each other and they're not connecting and they're not having discourse and and and getting to neutral and really getting to neutral right right and without without empathy right and without without empathy yeah yeah speaking of being right Travis was right on it today right on it today he always is yeah that's why Jess loves him crushed it we heard some World Cup stories we heard some slough stories we heard some you know

Principa Princip Principa Princip Principia it's a mouthful man Principia college sports stories we heard how Lifrack impacted his kids it was awesome um so that being said Travis where obviously contact us on the Bitless Minds we'll hook you up know if answer buts about that limitlessminds.com know where to find this man but also where else can they find you double T where can they I call Travel Travis Thomas Double Tony thank you I mean you can link you can LinkedIn me you can uh uh Instagram uh all the all the all the social my website Ted Lasso website is liveyessan.com and here's here's an idea guys that that uh that that I'm excited about which is um uh I'm gonna do it in November so not I'm I'm sure this podcast will come out before November so if you're listening to this podcast before November or in November um uh my birthday is in November so I've always loved November but you know what November November 19th yes so um but if you were to if you were to cut the word november into like two words what would it what would it be guys november november november but what am I yes and I'm yes and so I am gonna be doing 20 days of yes Vember yes yes Vember 20 days of yes Vember so so I'm in I'm all in every day every day in the case do we have to grow a mustache for that well you just you can you can just like mark mark off multiple well you gotta follow TT over the holidays too because he does so much good uh the uh the the rake rack rack friday rack okay rack I'm sorry yeah rack friday okay so kind of it'll kind of lead to act of kindness rack so we will do act of kindness so random acts of kindness friday not black friday brack friday black friday all about going and into the craziness of commercialism rack friday is all about spending that day doing random acts of kindness which little do you know little do you know but our amazing producer Anna has us scheduled Travis to do some holiday specials so you and I are nice I know I'm ready we got it hey let's do yeah and let's do it pay attention to that yeah and let's uh I don't know can we can we tie it to some donations or something for for Rack Friday? 00:42:49.440 --> 00:43:48.159 I mean let's let's Anna let's let's get creative on that figure out let's get creative on that I would like that um listen this was awesome thank you double T thank you Travis Thomas for for coming on and and helping us understand the difference between optimism and why neutral can really help us perform at a higher level next week next week ladies and gentlemen you got the one the only David Gors talk a little bit more about neutrality live from Seattle the impossible possible so and also obviously there won't be as many sound effects no not as many no singing no beatbox but we're gonna get it done so looking forward to seeing you in the meantime in the meantime in the building we're gonna sing and rap in the meantime actually you do rap in it you do you do you oh that's yeah you're right that's good um good point in the meantime oh my guys my guys can get better we'll see y'all