Hard Conversations의 전체 녹취록

--> 00:02:36.118 of things that I thought would make good episodes because I think in terms of 00:02:36.118 --> 00:02:39.878 life journeys and things that we obviously learn or lessons, 00:02:40.218 --> 00:02:45.118 maybe some wisdoms we gain, some of those have probably come from hard conversations. 00:02:45.118 --> 00:02:52.978 But it actually has come up kind of recently, I think, within my own day-to-day. 00:02:53.758 --> 00:03:00.218 It's both in a personal sense but also in a work sense. 00:03:01.038 --> 00:03:05.078 And so no better time than the present to finally get around to talking about 00:03:05.078 --> 00:03:10.418 it and kind of what it means to me and how I had to learn about it and how I've 00:03:10.418 --> 00:03:12.118 tried to approach having them. 00:03:13.938 --> 00:03:19.558 And kind of like the phrase seems to suggest, hard conversations, 00:03:19.798 --> 00:03:23.578 these are conversations that we know we need to have, 00:03:23.598 --> 00:03:27.918 but they're probably going to be difficult, 00:03:27.918 --> 00:03:35.638 maybe emotionally difficult maybe mentally difficult there could be a range 00:03:35.638 --> 00:03:41.358 of reasons why they are difficult and they can be both from a maybe you're having 00:03:41.358 --> 00:03:43.038 a really hard time at work. 00:03:43.808 --> 00:03:50.448 And the people that you're working with, or there is sort of unspoken disagreement 00:03:50.448 --> 00:03:56.748 or conflict, or just it's not flowing the way that it should, 00:03:57.128 --> 00:04:01.528 and there is a sense we all need to get in a room and talk about it. 00:04:01.528 --> 00:04:06.468 Maybe that is also something that is occurring in your personal sphere. 00:04:06.728 --> 00:04:13.768 It could be maybe with friends or friendships. It could be within a family structure. 00:04:14.248 --> 00:04:22.068 It could be in either sphere, right? So work professional sphere or we'll call it personal sphere. 00:04:22.828 --> 00:04:29.928 And the way that the term hard conversations came to me was actually several 00:04:29.928 --> 00:04:31.988 years ago in a working environment. 00:04:31.988 --> 00:04:40.228 It was as I was really leaning into my day job, or I think I would probably 00:04:40.228 --> 00:04:45.968 say really getting into the groove of becoming a project manager. 00:04:46.768 --> 00:04:51.588 And I was in a meeting with someone. The person goes, sounds like we need to 00:04:51.588 --> 00:04:52.548 have a hard conversation. 00:04:53.968 --> 00:04:57.388 And I thought, hard conversation? I like that term. 00:04:57.988 --> 00:05:01.668 For reference, it was not directed at me. This was more of a, 00:05:01.968 --> 00:05:07.648 we were kind of having, I think, an assessment of where we were in the project 00:05:07.648 --> 00:05:12.248 and sort of where people were at the stages of work they needed to be doing 00:05:12.248 --> 00:05:16.628 and kind of the partnerships going on and the stakeholders and all this other sort of stuff. 00:05:17.188 --> 00:05:24.688 And I remember my co-teammate said that phrase, I think we need to have a hard conversation. 00:05:25.633 --> 00:05:29.993 And it's one of those things, you know, when you kind of file it away and go, 00:05:30.293 --> 00:05:31.793 I'm going to remember that term. 00:05:32.533 --> 00:05:41.653 I like that because it's a way in which to, I would say, gently but firmly put 00:05:41.653 --> 00:05:46.413 out into the space that you're probably going to need to have the conversation with. 00:05:46.453 --> 00:05:51.813 That's not going to maybe make people not want to have the conversation, right? 00:05:51.813 --> 00:05:58.873 There's the word hard at the beginning of the phrase, which suggests maybe we're 00:05:58.873 --> 00:06:00.953 at a place where we're not agreeing, 00:06:01.093 --> 00:06:05.893 or we're at a place where we don't see eye to eye, or we need to—you have one 00:06:05.893 --> 00:06:07.313 point of view, I have a different point of view. 00:06:07.313 --> 00:06:13.993 But then the second part of the phrase, conversation, is a more open word, I would argue. 00:06:14.253 --> 00:06:21.613 And it is inviting a discussion and a coming together to talk about it, 00:06:21.753 --> 00:06:23.253 even if it might be difficult. 00:06:23.833 --> 00:06:27.433 And I think that's why I like that term. 00:06:28.193 --> 00:06:32.073 And so we did ultimately have a hard conversation for this project, 00:06:32.073 --> 00:06:36.213 and it was pretty intense, but it got us to where we needed to be. 00:06:36.213 --> 00:06:39.693 It got us to move forward. 00:06:40.373 --> 00:06:45.933 We got past some of our quote-unquote blockers or the things that were causing 00:06:45.933 --> 00:06:50.413 the friction amongst the team and the teamwork, and we got there. 00:06:50.973 --> 00:06:52.873 And I've kept that conversation. 00:06:53.423 --> 00:06:57.843 Pretty much since I first heard that phrase, which is probably going on, 00:06:58.143 --> 00:07:00.523 I would say, at least 10 years now. 00:07:01.283 --> 00:07:07.683 And I've used it a lot in a working sense, because again, day-to-day as a project 00:07:07.683 --> 00:07:14.303 manager, your job, part of the job, is you have to resolve conflict, right? 00:07:14.303 --> 00:07:19.823 You are tasked with directing something from start to finish, 00:07:20.003 --> 00:07:24.763 getting the work across the finish line, making sure all the folks that are 00:07:24.763 --> 00:07:28.863 supporting the work are doing what they need to do. 00:07:29.023 --> 00:07:31.463 They're supported in the way they need to be supported. 00:07:31.763 --> 00:07:36.823 You also are managing expectations of stakeholders and unexpected, 00:07:36.823 --> 00:07:44.243 let's say, changes or asks or maybe things that could derail your team to get the work done. 00:07:44.343 --> 00:07:49.843 There's just a litany of things that as a PM, project manager, 00:07:50.123 --> 00:07:52.503 you are in the hot seat

four. 00:07:52.703 --> 00:07:57.863 This is why I often refer to project management as air traffic control. 00:07:58.123 --> 00:08:06.123 So you're this central person that is monitoring all of these things going on, like at an airport. 00:08:06.363 --> 00:08:11.683 There's planes taking off. There's planes landing. There's planes flying through the airspace. 00:08:11.923 --> 00:08:17.483 There's planes taxiing. There's planes waiting for clearance to take off on the runway. 00:08:17.703 --> 00:08:24.123 A very organized sense of multiple disciplines happening in multiple spaces, 00:08:24.123 --> 00:08:32.023 moving at multiple speeds to ultimately be successful in a delivery of something. 00:08:32.363 --> 00:08:36.443 In case of, you know, aircraft and airplanes and travel, we're trying to get 00:08:36.443 --> 00:08:37.963 people from point A to point B. 00:08:38.083 --> 00:08:44.983 We're trying to do that in a way that isn't going to see lots of delays or have, unfortunate, 00:08:45.263 --> 00:08:49.163 a really bad accident, which we never want or you 00:08:49.163 --> 00:08:51.923 know having planes confused and they don't know where they need to 00:08:51.923 --> 00:08:55.143 go when they land not saying that some of 00:08:55.143 --> 00:09:00.743 these things don't happen but the idea is that there is someone sort of centrally 00:09:00.743 --> 00:09:08.323 kind of trying to keep that traffic control in an organized way and get in front 00:09:08.323 --> 00:09:14.983 of being able to identify if something is going to be a problem or. 00:09:15.902 --> 00:09:18.962 A conflict we would say in in the way that i'm 00:09:18.962 --> 00:09:21.642 referring to hard conversations and kind of 00:09:21.642 --> 00:09:25.402 the role that a pm would play to have those hard conversations with 00:09:25.402 --> 00:09:28.602 project team members or stakeholders or whatnot 00:09:28.602 --> 00:09:32.002 but what i've learned is that not 00:09:32.002 --> 00:09:35.082 everyone wants to have them 00:09:35.082 --> 00:09:38.762 so what i mean by that is you 00:09:38.762 --> 00:09:42.842 can be the person that recognizes 00:09:42.842 --> 00:09:47.622 the need to have it but when 00:09:47.622 --> 00:09:51.002 you say it out loud whether it is in a working environment 00:09:51.002 --> 00:09:57.162 or a personal environment people if they are not comfortable with conflict if 00:09:57.162 --> 00:10:01.242 they're not comfortable with confrontation if they're not comfortable kind of 00:10:01.242 --> 00:10:05.582 okay we got to get in a room and kind of work through this they just kind of 00:10:05.582 --> 00:10:08.222 go blank or they get sort of, oh, 00:10:08.562 --> 00:10:10.922 what does that mean, hard conversation? 00:10:11.182 --> 00:10:15.522 I'm, hmm, that sounds kind of scary. And I've had that too, where. 00:10:15.962 --> 00:10:19.742 You know, you're in a meeting or you're maybe not in a meeting, 00:10:19.762 --> 00:10:24.802 but you're in a situation where you say

the phrase or I say the phrase, 00:10:24.802 --> 00:10:27.182 I think we're probably going to need to have a hard conversation. 00:10:27.422 --> 00:10:31.682 And you'll see people nod and you'll see people go, yeah, that sounds right. 00:10:31.682 --> 00:10:36.442 But they don't want to initiate it. They don't want to start it. 00:10:36.622 --> 00:10:40.362 They don't want to take ownership to go and plan to have it. 00:10:40.522 --> 00:10:45.022 And what that has helped teach me is. 00:10:46.311 --> 00:10:51.511 As if I'm calling out the obvious, but I'm also bringing it to the surface in 00:10:51.511 --> 00:10:57.251 a way that is sort of that saying of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, right? 00:10:57.491 --> 00:11:00.771 If I don't see it, if I don't hear it, if I don't speak it, then it must not exist. 00:11:01.291 --> 00:11:06.671 Or if I just pretend that it isn't a problem, then the problem will go away. 00:11:07.111 --> 00:11:12.251 We have a funny saying as well, my good friend Cindy and I, we call this ostrich 00:11:12.251 --> 00:11:15.231 syndrome, where you stick your head in the sand and you just pretend. 00:11:16.311 --> 00:11:20.751 That nothing is, you know, everything's fine, everything sunsets and rainbows, 00:11:20.851 --> 00:11:25.511 and if I just ignore it, it will just somehow magically resolve itself. 00:11:25.831 --> 00:11:31.431 And I'm sure there are many of you out there know and have experienced that 00:11:31.431 --> 00:11:33.151 doesn't generally go very well. 00:11:33.411 --> 00:11:38.751 When it doesn't get resolved, it just festers, and it just kind of sits there, 00:11:38.871 --> 00:11:42.291 and there's something that reminds you every so often. 00:11:42.291 --> 00:11:46.191 This is still not resolved, and it still needs to be addressed, 00:11:46.311 --> 00:11:48.511 and it still needs to be dealt with. 00:11:48.631 --> 00:11:56.291 And you can kind of distract yourself in a way with other things that will tell you, 00:11:56.431 --> 00:11:59.571 ah, no, everything's fine, but then something comes back up, 00:11:59.631 --> 00:12:05.231 and something rises out of the sand, where even if you are the ostrich, 00:12:05.251 --> 00:12:08.151 and you've got your head in the sand a little bit further away from there, 00:12:08.331 --> 00:12:11.371 it comes and taps you on the leg and goes, ah, 00:12:11.671 --> 00:12:14.711 nope, sorry, haven't quite resolved this. You still need to deal. 00:12:15.351 --> 00:12:23.191 And as I've gotten older, I find that I am more willing to have those conversations. 00:12:23.211 --> 00:12:26.511 I think when I was younger, I was not. 00:12:27.631 --> 00:12:33.091 And it was for various reasons. I would say that I was always a direct person. 00:12:33.291 --> 00:12:39.351 Those of you who have listening and who actually know me in real life know that 00:12:39.351 --> 00:12:43.051 I can be very direct and forward, but not in a rude way, 00:12:43.291 --> 00:12:51.371 just I'm okay bringing up things that maybe other folks aren't used to bringing up or talking about. 00:12:51.651 --> 00:12:58.991 I've had people tell me that I create a space of safety or they feel comfortable 00:12:58.991 --> 00:13:02.771 in telling me things that they would not tell anybody else, 00:13:02.771 --> 00:13:10.051 and I really take that to heart and appreciate that I, in just how I am, 00:13:10.731 --> 00:13:17.851 that I somehow allow folks to feel they can open up or they can talk or they can share. 00:13:18.491 --> 00:13:24.311 And in learning this as I've gotten older and in kind of embracing, 00:13:24.791 --> 00:13:28.891 I would maybe call myself the hard conversation whisperer, I don't know, 00:13:29.071 --> 00:13:35.351 I've taken that feedback, and I use it very importantly, 00:13:35.891 --> 00:13:39.851 or keenly, I would say, when I go in to have these hard conversations. 00:13:39.851 --> 00:13:42.411 I'm not in there to... 00:13:43.647 --> 00:13:47.007 Berate people or yell at people or 00:13:47.007 --> 00:13:50.247 make it a hostile environment 00:13:50.247 --> 00:13:53.087 because at that point you're not actually going 00:13:53.087 --> 00:13:56.267 to get to the core of whatever the issue is 00:13:56.267 --> 00:14:01.207 or the core of whatever the discussion needs to be people are just going to 00:14:01.207 --> 00:14:04.647 put their guard up they're going to get defensive nobody's going to talk people 00:14:04.647 --> 00:14:08.687 are going to get maybe feelings are going to be hurt or people are just not 00:14:08.687 --> 00:14:13.887 the the goal of the conversation is going to be immediately be kind of shot to heck right? 00:14:14.487 --> 00:14:20.627 You've essentially, everybody has not felt as if the space is safe and you can 00:14:20.627 --> 00:14:23.527 have the conversation and you can move forward from there. 00:14:24.167 --> 00:14:29.127 And this goes for whether or not you're having this in a working environment 00:14:29.127 --> 00:14:32.147 or a personal environment. It's not always easy. 00:14:32.287 --> 00:14:36.967 I think it's sometimes even harder to have it in a personal environment or within 00:14:36.967 --> 00:14:40.907 a family environment or within a where you really, 00:14:41.127 --> 00:14:46.627 really are close to the person because a lot of additional emotions and feelings 00:14:46.627 --> 00:14:54.147 get involved and they can be easily hurt or they can be easily maybe offended. 00:14:55.147 --> 00:15:01.507 And what I would say to that is it still is important to try to have the conversation 00:15:01.507 --> 00:15:06.987 because what I've gotten to at this point in my life is if I have at least tried 00:15:06.987 --> 00:15:08.247 to have the conversation, 00:15:08.487 --> 00:15:12.487 identified why we need to have it from the get-go or the outset, 00:15:12.487 --> 00:15:17.807 we need to have a hard conversation about X, Y, Z, and I have at least put my 00:15:17.807 --> 00:15:21.407 foot forward, my

best foot forward to have that conversation, 00:15:21.627 --> 00:15:27.087 then I have done what I believe I can do to try to move us to next, 00:15:27.107 --> 00:15:28.967 as I love to use this phrase, 00:15:29.207 --> 00:15:32.907 move us to next, or as I learned another phrase that I loved, 00:15:33.447 --> 00:15:38.767 back at the same job where I learned the hard conversation conversation, a path forward, right? 00:15:38.987 --> 00:15:42.627 There is a path forward, or at least by having the hard conversation, 00:15:42.627 --> 00:15:44.647 we are trying to find the path forward. 00:15:45.927 --> 00:15:50.367 It doesn't mean it's always going to go well, and it doesn't mean that it's 00:15:50.367 --> 00:15:55.747 always going to get resolved or that you are going to come out and it will be 00:15:55.747 --> 00:15:57.027 all sunsets and rainbows. 00:15:58.427 --> 00:16:04.047 But an effort has been made to get there, And an effort has been made to at 00:16:04.047 --> 00:16:09.347 least have the communication, to create the space, 00:16:09.507 --> 00:16:13.427 to have the conversation, to talk about something that's difficult, 00:16:13.427 --> 00:16:20.927 and with the hope and the good intent of moving on from there. 00:16:22.384 --> 00:16:28.384 But if it doesn't work out, and the conversation doesn't end in the way everyone 00:16:28.384 --> 00:16:32.784 maybe had hoped, or maybe if you were the instigator of the conversation, 00:16:33.404 --> 00:16:38.124 as I often am, and it doesn't end up where it needs to end up, 00:16:38.364 --> 00:16:41.824 sometimes that is a closure moment. 00:16:42.024 --> 00:16:48.224 In a work situation, it's probably a little bit different because you oftentimes 00:16:48.224 --> 00:16:55.184 are trying to find a solution for a piece of work that has to either get done or, again, 00:16:55.744 --> 00:16:57.624 in my case, a project that needs to get to be done. 00:16:57.724 --> 00:17:02.944 So there has to be some kind of resolution that comes out of the conversation. 00:17:03.964 --> 00:17:07.764 Sometimes, though, in a family or friendship situation, that doesn't always occur. 00:17:08.204 --> 00:17:13.424 You might be trying to resolve a conflict within a family situation or a friend 00:17:13.424 --> 00:17:18.024 situation or talk about something that really bothers you or has been bothering 00:17:18.024 --> 00:17:19.564 you, and it doesn't resolve. 00:17:19.964 --> 00:17:23.144 It stays unresolved. 00:17:24.304 --> 00:17:27.164 But you made the effort, and you tried. 00:17:28.146 --> 00:17:34.406 And there is a way sometimes in a hard conversation, which I've had recently, 00:17:34.406 --> 00:17:38.906 too, where I've had to kind of put to someone, listen, 00:17:39.626 --> 00:17:43.366 hey, this is not kind of what I'm expecting us to be. 00:17:45.346 --> 00:17:52.826 And if you are not okay with kind of what we feel we need to be to each other, 00:17:52.966 --> 00:17:56.546 you have a different feeling about it

than I do. 00:17:56.686 --> 00:17:59.246 That's okay. hey, I don't wish you any ill will. 00:17:59.406 --> 00:18:06.786 I think then we just need to, you know, gently part ways here and go on and go forth and prosper. 00:18:07.006 --> 00:18:10.506 And at least we talked about it and we got to a good place about it. 00:18:10.606 --> 00:18:20.226 And we don't essentially leave each other to be angry or resentful or hurt or something. 00:18:20.586 --> 00:18:25.646 I have spent too much time in my life where that has been true because I did 00:18:25.646 --> 00:18:28.206 grow up in a family where we just didn't talk about stuff. 00:18:28.486 --> 00:18:33.546 And we sure as heck didn't talk about stuff that was really not appropriate 00:18:33.546 --> 00:18:40.086 family behavior, where there was a lot of shouting and yelling and anger and things. 00:18:40.246 --> 00:18:47.026 Like, no, not okay. And I often think about myself today and how I would have 00:18:47.026 --> 00:18:53.066 been a much different participant in that back then, 00:18:53.066 --> 00:18:55.466 trying to actually stop it from happening. 00:18:56.046 --> 00:19:02.306 Call people out on their BS, get people to a table, and be direct with what 00:19:02.306 --> 00:19:03.986 in the world is going on here. 00:19:04.046 --> 00:19:09.506 I really sometimes wish I could go back and tell my teenage girl self that you 00:19:09.506 --> 00:19:13.066 will get to a place where you will find your voice and you will know how to use it, 00:19:13.146 --> 00:19:17.806 and you will not create situations where people do not feel like they can also 00:19:17.806 --> 00:19:22.586 express their opinion in a respectful way or and non-anger way. 00:19:23.006 --> 00:19:25.666 Love to tell her that, but alas, I digress. 00:19:26.166 --> 00:19:29.946 It's still okay that you try to have the conversation if it doesn't even, 00:19:30.106 --> 00:19:32.526 if it doesn't resolve itself in the way that you hope. 00:19:33.166 --> 00:19:40.026 Because a lot, I would say almost 80% of it is initially putting the time together 00:19:40.026 --> 00:19:49.246 to have it and finding a way in which to have it be okay within you, 00:19:49.446 --> 00:19:53.006 but also okay within either the group or the other person. 00:19:53.286 --> 00:19:59.266 And coming to either that agreement or that new path forward, 00:19:59.486 --> 00:20:02.766 or also just allowing closure. 00:20:03.286 --> 00:20:12.386 In my opinion, a hard conversation can lead to both. and it can lead to a type of resolution. 00:20:13.517 --> 00:20:19.657 That can be helpful, whether it is on a path or closing a chapter. 00:20:19.917 --> 00:20:24.057 And so if you take anything away from this episode about, 00:20:24.637 --> 00:20:31.237 is there something in your life right now that maybe you probably need to have 00:20:31.237 --> 00:20:32.677 that hard conversation about, 00:20:32.897 --> 00:20:37.217 think about it for a little bit and think about how maybe to bring that person 00:20:37.217 --> 00:20:44.597 to the table to create the safe space to have the conversation about whatever it is, 00:20:44.857 --> 00:20:52.097 and also to trust in yourself and in what you want to say. 00:20:52.457 --> 00:21:00.077 And if it doesn't end up being a path forward, you at least have potentially 00:21:00.077 --> 00:21:04.257 created resolution and a chapter that closes. 00:21:04.277 --> 00:21:06.837 And then you move on from there. 00:21:07.017 --> 00:21:11.697 Maybe it's not both of you or all of you moving on, but you can. 00:21:11.937 --> 00:21:20.577 And it doesn't sit unresolved for years at a time, which we're all guilty of, myself included. 00:21:21.037 --> 00:21:28.017 But it's something I'm trying to be better at, particularly as I get older, 00:21:28.017 --> 00:21:35.077 and also influenced highly by how I have to do this more regularly in a day-to-day job. 00:21:35.357 --> 00:21:41.297 I think it's actually made me better in my own personal life because I have 00:21:41.297 --> 00:21:44.637 to do it so much in my day-to-day job life. 00:21:45.017 --> 00:21:52.257 May not be true for you, and that's okay, but hard conversations are not something to be avoided, 00:21:52.257 --> 00:22:00.557 and they are something that can often get us to a better place if we have the courage to have them. 00:22:01.277 --> 00:22:04.877 And with that, as always, ask you to be kind to yourself. 00:22:05.017 --> 00:22:09.837 Take it one hour at a time, one day at a time, and I will see you next time. 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:31.178 Music.