Dr. Jackie Shoemaker Holmes on Motherhood, Empowerment, and Reclaiming Your Identity의 전체 녹취록

granted until I moved out of that space, right? And and as you noted, I didn't move out of that space until I was about 30 years old. Right. And even then I moved into a nonprofit career where I was leading a women's center and transition homes. So I was still surrounded by that ethos. That ethos is lacking. It's profoundly lacking for so many women, right? And all of us have internalized all of the grotesquery of patriarchy and white supremacy and all of that stuff, right? And so to to be able to create spaces. where women are safe and free to be themselves in the non-judgmental supportive presence of other women, that is, that is empowerment. speaker-1: I think you perfectly just describe what we're trying to do in Let's Network, but what we don't have those beautiful words to use it. We're like, let's get together and pump each other up. speaker-0: No, I love that. I I mean because you do recognize the need, right? Like that's what's important about what you're doing. It doesn't have to be eloquent. It has to be non-judgmental, supportive, like the connective tissue of the community, which is what women are. speaker-1: And for so long, women didn't have that voice. And it's true, it was always kind of the you can be the caregiver or the teacher or the nurse. It wasn't like you could be the leader, the doctor, you know. So I think even just changing the narrative and telling our kids, hey, you can do anything. And also letting our our boys know that they can do anything. I was at Ripley's aquarium this weekend and my son picked out a pink otter. And I was like, don't you want the blue one? And then I like stopped. I was like, nope, the pink one is great. Let's get it. And he's like, I want to call it cotton candy. But it's even like in my own narrative, these gender stereotypes. And it's just like, and I am very for everything, but it's funny because it's been so ingrained in us for so long. So having these conversations, I think really opens up everyone's eyes, whether they were sort of open or not. speaker-0: Absolutely. I and I think it's i imperative, especially as parents, right, that we understand that yeah, I mean people should be able speaker-1: able to be who and what they are. speaker-0: right. Like I I of course focus on on women and moms particularly, but that doesn't mean that I am not, as you're saying, so into everyone being the fullest expression of themselves, whatever that is. speaker-1: Amazing. Now you've talked openly about how becoming a mother completely disrupted your sense of identity. And I think Emily and I can both heavily relate to that. who was Jackie before motherhood and who did you become afterwards? speaker-0: Thank you for that question. it's one that I still ponder even now, especially as my daughter ages and I move, you know, I shift from that more intensive parenting role, right? so I was you know, the Jackie before pre-motherhood was very, you know, I was very ambitious. I was very I was very driven. I don't think I had ever really stopped to ask myself where that drive was coming from. I just knew that it propelled me. and it didn't seem to be a problem for everyone else. Like it I was lauded for it, right? So it's not, it's not like there was a real need. I mean, you know, somewhere in my twenties, I kind of was like, okay, well, I'm very anxious, so I should figure that out, you know. but I don't think that I really fully understood how much my anxiety drove my ambition. until perhaps post-motherhood, right? when I, you know, I had had other episodes of sort of extreme anxiety and some periods of depression in my life, but they came to a head postpartum. And sitting where I am now, you know, 11 years into motherhood, it's like, of course, you know, like of course that was going to happen to you. Like, but no one sort of prepared me. No one, you know, everyone just sort of assumed like, like I assumed, I'm a very capable person, you know, like I can figure this out. I didn't actually think that motherhood was going to be very disruptive to my life. And that was my number one mistake, right? or my number one n not knowing. and so I think that that is part of the reason that I wanted to tell my story and that I wanted to be really open about it because I wanted highly driven, highly efficient, effective, you know, overachievers like I was, and and still lean toward. To know that this is not this is not something that you can just sort of research your way out of or like you know figure out like like you have all the other things in your life, you know, like this is the this is the hardest thing that you'll ever do. And that is really hard for someone who tries to be really good at everything, to acknowledge and admit, And so it really blew up who I thought I was. and I had a really difficult time seeing myself as a mother. speaker-2: I feel like you've spoken directly to me, like as someone who was a high achiever and had no idea that what do you mean becoming a parent is going to throw life on its head and that this whole identity I've built as an overachiever can't exist anymore. So thank you for having these conversations because it is so important because you can't just find it in a book. speaker-0: I tried. I really tried. speaker-1: And I think what's really important about these conversations is just having them. You may not know where to start. But I think even just having these conversations allows other women to see, like I I've said it time and time again when I had my first I didn't have that all-encompassing love for her. I was fighting for my life from blood loss. And I felt like this horrible mother. Like I I loved her because, you know, she was mine, but I didn't have that all and it took a while to get there. And people don't talk about that, right? Then you feel horrible and you see all these social medias that it has to be this perfect connection right away. And it might not happen. So there's so many different ways to become

a mother and experience motherhood. And if we just all kind of look at it in this one narrow viewpoint, then we're not going to see everything else that encompasses motherhood. So I appreciate you talking about that. And it kind of dives into the next question. You talked about the postpartum depression and anxiety. Looking back, how did that experience change your understanding of strength and what it means to be an empowered woman? speaker-0: I'm gonna take like a massive deep breath in and speaker-1: Ha ha ha. speaker-0: that question is so big. because I think I think that I had really internalized a very denigrating, very problematic idea of what mothers were and what they represented and who they like what their role was. Do you know what I mean? And I think that that was a real profound, you know, to your point about the blue and the pink otter, right? You know, you don't spend you know all this time learning about the oppression of women, the you know, marginalization of of motherhood, the the you know loss of rights that women had for so many years in in marital situations and in and in familial situations, right? and still carry this baggage about like mothers and that like they're not valuable or they're not contributing in a particular way. And I really do think that I internalized a kind of bias against mothers. And like I remember I remember even before I had my daughter like pregnant, I was like, I'm not gonna join any moms groups. Like what would I have in common with these people, you know? And And I I have to say, like I didn't have my daughter until I was 36 years old. So I lived I lived as a married woman without children for a long time, right? Like 12 years or something like that, right? Before so I knew how people acted towards, you know, an ambitious driven, you know, married woman, you know, childless or child free, right? I knew how people and that was something I had to navigate and I didn't like that at all. But then I became a mother and I was like, wow, not only have I internalized all of this like absolute filth about you know what what and who mothers really are, because mothers are, to your question, the epitome of strength, right? We carry the weight of the world on our shoulders. We should not have to. We should not have to be the center of our families, but we are. And we accept that, whether begrudgingly or not, right? Through generations. And we embody the power and strength of personhood, right? We create it in this miraculous situation, right? Like I like to, you know, I like to remind my daughter that I like actually assembled her body in my body. Do you know what I mean? Like like I made you, you know, like just don't forget that, that I have the power to make humans, you know? and we all do. And we're just I am so happy to be on the other side, on the knowing side of what power strength and empowerment, right, that women embody. whether mothers or not, but what we are and what we do should put everyone else to shame. speaker-1: And it's true, you kind of alluded to the fact that, like, even if we don't have kids, we so often take on the mother role in so many lives. Like, I'm the youngest kid in my family, but I'm the oldest daughter. Therefore, I'm the one planning the family pictures, I'm doing the birthday parties, I'm doing this. And it's just like, why did that role fall on these shoulders? And it's basically because of my body parts. You know what I mean? And taking that on. Whether I subconsciously did it or not, it just kind of fell into my life and I'm the matriarch of the family, even though I'm the youngest one by quite a bit of it. You know what I mean? So I do appreciate you saying that we we take on so much that we don't quite acknowledge, and it's just something that's expected of us. but that we should still give ourselves kudos to because we are doing everything that the men are doing in the world, but we had to start, you know. three hundred meters back to get to the same finish line. speaker-0: Yeah, I really appreciate you articulating it that way and putting it in the context of your family because I also want to note that women are very aware and attuned to how we are punished, shamed, and guilt guilted for not taking on these things. And as I come into like as I exist in middle age, right, I am now able to see so much more clearly how much my socialization. has caused me to live a life in service to others simply because of my fear of that guilt and shame. And I can tell you that shifting that is not easy and it's not comfortable. And it results in lots of shit we don't want, but it is essential. if we're going to live a life that is ours and not just a collection of expectations of other people. speaker-1: It's amazing. Now we've talked so much about conversation about women gain when they become mothers, but not nearly as much what they can lose. Do you think we give women enough permission to grieve parts of their pre motherhood identity? And I and I really value this question because I loved being a non mom. I love my kids with all my heart. I had them at 26, so I had them relatively early. But it's funny, like I went to trauma a few months ago and they said I was like that John Hamm meme in the club, like dancing without my kids there. I was having like the time of my life. And again, I love my kids, but I also had a really great life before them. So I think it's important to acknowledge that we do give up our life and our sense of kind of who we were to take on that sense of motherhood. speaker-0: Yeah, we don't we don't give women any space to grieve, you know, like you said about your feelings immediately postpartum and my feelings sort of immediately postpartum and and just kind of for six and a half weeks, you know, falling further and further into postpartum depression and you know, trying to breastfeed and trying to be just trying to be perfect at this new thing that I was supposed to be really good at because

I had told myself it was gonna be easy or something. or I was gonna nail it no matter what because I had done hard things, you know. I think I think, you know, nobody nobody talked to me about how difficult the birth was and how you know people don't talk about birth drama. They don't talk about they just want you to be happy. And that is what contributed to me feeling like a monster because I was like I this is the This is the worst I think I've ever felt in my life. And I don't know how to say that to other people because all they want from me is joy. And so I sometimes, even now, you know, as I said, my daughter's 11, even now I feel like I go overboard on like just like not being happy about stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like in my expression to other moms, because it's like I I think that that she that my daughter is the most unbelievable thing, like this creature, you know what I mean, like in the world. But like being her mom has been hard. And being a mom is hard. And being judged for every choice that you make and every, you know. And everything that your child does, right? It always falls on the mother, right? I mean, even serial killers, like whose fault is it? It's always the mom. she didn't love them enough. She she we had problems. so I guess I guess in answer to your question, it's just like none, zero, zip, right? And and I I'm proud to have been part of what I see as sort of a movement in parenting. that said no, like we're not speaker-1: Gonna speaker-0: we're not going to regurgitate this discourse of of happy mom. and and I will not self-sacrifice to the point of complete identity and personal annihilation so I meet your expectation of what a mother is. speaker-1: Really felt this in my core. So, and it's true, anything that happens, any decision you make isn't just impacting your life now, it's impacting these tiny humans that you've created. And I went from having two girls who I never really had any issues with, and then I had a little boy, and within like three weeks of school, I was sitting in the little chairs being told that he was hitting and everything. And I got a message today, and I saw the teacher yesterday at the open house. And she's like, my gosh, he's doing wonderful. It's fantastic. It's great, like completely different kid. And I was like, that's amazing. And then I got a message today from her. And I was like, no. And then all of a sudden it's like he got scratched in the back of his neck. And I was like, he didn't bite somebody. I guess like my parenting levels of achievement have just dropped significantly. And that's okay. We, you know, you especially with the first, you start with this like perfect thing. Your kid is gonna be an angel. And then you get humbled very quickly as you go through this journey of motherhood. And I wish we would have just all been humbled at the start. We probably all would have been much better for it if we just would have set those expectations so much lower. speaker-2: can

we circle back to that grief and the trauma for a bit? Because I feel like there's so many layers within that to unpack because there's the grief and the trauma over the life that you no longer live before you had children. There's the grief and the trauma associated with birth because all birth is traumatic, whether or not you have one that people call easy or whatever. And then there's also a third layer of grief that as your relationships change, what you want from those relationships changes. Right. And under like and learning to be okay with the fact that your wants and your needs have changed. speaker-0: Yeah, and and I hate to like I like spoiler alert, but that also that happens again at my stage of life, right? I'm 47 years old. I didn't expect it to, I didn't expect there to be a yet another wave, right, of renegotiating right, the terms by which I engage the world and I engage the people around me. I think as women we are not we are not encouraged to be in tune with what we want or need. And we are encouraged to lose ourselves in motherhood. We are encouraged to be in service to our family. speaker-1: with a badge of honor when you're doing it too. speaker-0: absolutely. Like the more that you sacrifice, the more that you feel, I think intensely that you are owed. And rightfully so. But that is just a recipe for resentment. Right. So when I had my business, empowerment for resilience, and that really grew out of my social media presence, you know, so many women were like, my God, me too, me too, me too. Right. So I was able to express things in a way that resonated with people. And that is that is, I think, my gift, right? Like that I have. the language for it. And I write about it and share that with people. I I didn't expect the extent to which people identified with that, right? Even though it's something I've sort of done all my whole life, you know. And so I started Mummy Voices, which is a Facebook group, for support. And I was providing a lot of support on a on sort of a volunteer basis with a couple of admins. And then I wanted to do that full time. I wanted to do it like around the clock. And so I figured out a way to do that. And I had seen a client in person maybe twice before the pandemic happened in 2020. And that shifted my business to completely online. And I spent Four years basically, you know, sitting across from women and talking to them about all of their resentments and all of their fears and all of their disappointments and all of the ways that they have been robbed and have robbed themselves of identity and happiness and pleasure and meaning. And there's just still so much for all of us to talk about because pretending that we're all happy and secure and living the dream is bullshit. speaker-1: I'm really resonating with this conversation right now because I love being a mom and I love what I'm doing, but I love traveling and I felt like I was really missing that. So this week I pulled the trigger and I'm organizing a women's tour to Italy. And I'm super excited about it. But as soon as I did it, I had like the butterflies. I was like, this is amazing. I'm gonna go with so many great women. And then all of a I was like, but I'm leaving my kids for two weeks. And I was like, my gosh. My daughter will be in junior high and I'm leaving her. Like, does that make me a horrible mother? And then I had to step back and be like, it's okay to want things for myself. I am raising these wonderful little resilient kids. The world is going to be just fine without me for two weeks. And it's okay to want something just for me, not just for my family, not just for my husband, for me. So I appreciate you talking about speaker-0: if it was your husband, that would be a totally different conversation, right? Everyone around you would be like, he has to leave for two weeks. that's that's hard. Like that's wow, how are you gonna manage? You know, and you're like, Well, I manage all the time, like what? but also you know, often just asking yourself, if I were a man, would I feel guilty about this? that's your answer to your question, right? That's That's the answer to the guilt question. speaker-1: And it's it's crazy too because I do have such a supportive spouse and I see these women who really are doing it alone. And I'm just like, I don't. You're amazing and you're fantastic. but it's just like it is that kudos to I'm doing it with support and I still feel like I'm doing it all. You know what I mean? So it's it's a good to acknowledge all the sides of it. Now I just want to keep going a little bit. So your book, Eating Her Young. Poems sort of the disruption of motherhood came out of a very raw period in your life. Why poetry and why what were you able to say through poems that you couldn't say any other way? speaker-0: So beautiful. So beautiful a question because within it lies the answer, right? poetry is processing, right? For me. Writing has always been cathartic. the reason that we're even talking right now is because I I decided that I had to tell everybody about my postpartum depression and anxiety, like online. I couldn't just like tell my circle of friends. I had to start a blog about it, you know? But I had to start a blog about it because I read a book and the book made me feel seen. And I was like, if I can share my story and make one person feel seen, then that's all I need in this life, you know? and so I I just sort of I started mark microblogging, right, from the blog on Facebook and Instagram. And then I wrote a lot of poetry mixed in with that. I've always written a lot of poetry. my father recently found about a year ago or so he found a poem that I wrote when I was probably like twelve or thirteen years old. It was like the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen in my life. And he like read it aloud and I thought I was going to die. my God, even thinking about it just like gives me the heebie jeebies, you know, like I'm totally freaked out. but

that's how we that's how we hone a craft, right? Like, And so I wrote poetry for I just decided I'm gonna write poems for a year. And so I wrote poems for a year. I had no intention of putting them into a collection, but I did that during the the pandemic, and I'm just so glad that I did. because the ways in which people you know, poetry allows us to read between the lines and and feel The experience, I think, in a very visceral way. and so I I'm always amazed at who comes up to me and says, I read your book, I love it. You know, like eighty-something year old men have said that to me. an 80-something year old man has said to me, I wish I wrote that book myself. And I'm just like, wow, like how, how, like, what an honor and a privilege for him. him to have read my words and identified them with them so deeply, right, from his own perspective that he that he was sort of jealous that he hadn't written it himself, you know, like that's a that's a privilege. That's the privilege of of being a writer. speaker-1: Love that. And I love the name eating her young because I often make jokes all the time, like thank all my kids are cute, or I would eat my young. So it really does encompass so much of motherhood, right? In those words. Now speaker-0: You get why some of them do, right? Like hamsters speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: have like like hamsters have like 17 babies. You know what I mean? If you could just eat like half, do you know what I mean? And be like, okay, you know, like this is more manageable, you know? speaker-1: Well it's even that visceral reaction, like when I see a cute baby, like just my nipple speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: on their little toes. Whether it's mine or not. Like I'm like, I'm coming for those toes. But I did see it was so funny when you're like kissing little baby feet and then you're like four year olds' feet come and you're like, That's different. Like better not come near me. speaker-0: It's funny when they get gross, like when they just turn gross and you're like, you're gross now. that's interesting. And then they do it again during puberty, you know? It's cool. speaker-1: We walked into my daughter's room. We're like, that's a puberty smell. speaker-0: I that's speaker-1: Yeah. And I was like, I was like, I know she wears deodorant and stuff. And I was like, it's just puberty. And I'm sure we did the same. We just covered it with like axe body spray, even though we were girls, you're like, this is good shit. speaker-2: Four hours of basketball, no big deal. speaker-1: Right, yeah. So so many women spend years taking care of everyone else and slowly move themselves further and further down the priority list. How do we begin to recenter ourselves in our own lives without feeling guilty about it? And I think this conversation is very important right now because so many of us are the sandwich generation. So we're not only dealing with motherhood, we're dealing with aging parents. And my parents I've always kind of felt like the daughter and this year as they've got older, I really have had to step into that parent role. And it was it was a really big shock to the system. speaker-0: It's really hard and and to be honest, it's really real and so it's really hard for me to not talk about it super emotionally. Do you know what I mean? You know, I think we're in this unique moment, as you say. and a lot of our parents are from the boomer generation, and they were raised with a lot of different values than I think a lot of us have internalized as millennials and gen Xers. and a lot of expectations of us that are not necessarily clear or fair. or appropriate to my mind, right? I I want to say that as I said sort of toward the beginning, this moment of of my life is about reclaiming my life. And in order to reclaim my life, I have to believe that I'm gonna cry. I have to believe that I am worthy. of the life that I want. speaker-1: Make me cry now. speaker-0: And we and we as women are not told that. We as women are convinced that we are never enough and that what we want is too much and too inconvenient and too preposterous, right? To pursue. And when I look at my life, you know, in the rear view mirror. I have never done things the way that I have been expected to do them. And like in terms of, you know what I mean? Like I didn't get married like really young and then have children and blah blah blah. Like I I was in academia a long time. Yes, I did get married, which is not something that I thought was gonna happen until I I found my person. but I from a young age rebelled against what was expected of me. And that has caused me kind of a bifurcated life. You know, and what I mean by that is that in some ways I do things that are acceptable and expected of me, right? I'm a good girl and I'm kind and I'm nice and I do what people expect of me because Because I I love them. speaker-1: Ha ha ha speaker-0: Right. and then there's this other part of me that has always been like, I need to do what I need to do, or I will shrivel, right? And and wither and and not be, you know. So I think motherhood has given me another identity. I think middle age, And perimetopause have given me a whole new lease on life. And I am now stepping back into a place of knowing that I deserve. I know that I deserve to be in the driver's seat. I know that I deserve what I want from other people. And if they're not capable of providing it, then I guess that's opportunity to create new relationships to expand my life. speaker-1: I think so many women are gonna need to hear this conversation because it's so impactful. And I myself had I read a quote where it talked about just living your life by being delusional, going after these grand ideas, because so many women do shrink themselves down and are like, well, that could never be possible for me. No, be delusional. Think that everything is possible in your life. And things will start happening, whether it's what you envisioned, maybe it's better,

maybe it's not, but at least you know you didn't think small. You went after what you wanted and because you do deserve to live this grand big life. So I think this this conversation has been just amazing. So far, we're not even done and I'm already super excited about it. speaker-0: I do want to say sorry, I do want to say you can also live fucking small. You can live like tea tiny, you can like if you want to just relax and stop taking care of everybody and stop doing all of the things and say no all the time. That's another thing that I'm practicing. Like I think that I'm gonna want to do something and then I go to do it. And I'm like, I absolutely don't want to do that. You know what I mean? So like it's also about getting to know yourself and honoring who you actually are, right? And not who other people have told you to be or how you need to be in order to be acceptable. I think there's something in the become ungovernable. Ungovernable. I can't even say it right now. Just go feral, delusional, whatever you need, you know? speaker-1: That's like Jordan's grandma. So she just like lives life on her own terms. She's just the spicy, says what's on her mind. She wants someone to sit in her room, eat her score bits. She thinks she might have diabetes. It was supposed to anyway. She eats scorebits and she reads books and she's living her best life. And I was like, Grandma, maybe I'll be you one day. And she's like, I don't go during down lunchtime because I don't want to talk to everyone. I was like, You do you, Grandma. speaker-2: Well, and I think this is so well timed because, like you said, Tally, like we've both been on this journey the last couple of years. And as we've built the business and come together and all this, of why do we have to fit into this box, whether it's a nine to five or to parent in a particular way, or to, like you said, totally engulf yourself in motherhood, that there's so much life to live and there's so much power in that delusion and that ferleness and that living outside the box. Like so much of what you have said. I'm sitting here, I'm like, yeah. Yeah, this is this is me. speaker-1: fits into my next question perfectly because do we think women are taught to make ourselves smaller? Whether that's in our careers, our relationships, motherhood, or even the way we talk about our accomplishments, how do we start unlearning that? And I think so many women deal with this. Like even today I hosted a yoga session and Tara Shaw from the Louis Grip Block thanked me for organizing it. And I literally like did an awkward wave and I like put my head down. Why can't I just say, You're welcome. I'm so glad you all enjoyed it. Like it was such something so simple that I felt so embarrassed by being acknowledged for organizing a fitness class. And maybe it like, Good for you for doing a fitness class. We know you wanted a bakery tour. speaker-0: I really appreciate the question. And I think that I think that this is something I'm still experimenting with. Like, how do I how do I remove every shackle that has been placed on me by my socialization, by the way that I was brought up, by the way that you know, generations of my family have done things by societal expectations, like There's a lot. Women are shaped by a lot, right? And I mean, we're all shaped by a lot in in certain ways, but being a sort of marginalized group, being an oppressed group means like living under patriarchy means that we have to remove these sort of this this cumbersome request of smallness, you know, one piece at a time. And I think for me it's been about it's been about moving past the fear of of being too much and and and not being liked and and moving toward my power, right? Like I always I have always sort of dampened my power to make other people comfortable. I'm consciously aware of that. I've always done it. And I think I'm consciously moving and intentionally moving toward my power, even though it scares the shit out of me a lot of the time too, right? so we have to get comfortable in discomfort, right? because we're going against how we've been trained and taught and told. And we are all so much more than we think that we are or or we think that we can be or we've been told we can be. And I think taking off the mask and and moving toward your power is just my those are my best pieces of advice. speaker-1: And I think too, women are often expected to be everything at once, successful, nurturing, involved, attractive, organized, ambitious, present. Is the idea that we can do it all actually empowering, or is it exhausting us? speaker-0: I think, you know, and this this might be kind of old school, this might be old school feminist of me, speaker-1: You're doing it all, have you made? speaker-0: I'm doing it all. I think it's like it's a myth, right? kind of in the same way that like multitasking is a myth. so we don't actually like I don't know that we're given the space and time, as we've discussed in this conversation already, to be like, what do I actually want? Do what do I think I should do? What am I what am I supposed to do? What do I feel obligated to do? What am I afraid to say no to? what am I afraid to say yes to? That's a big one, right? that's a big one for me in in middle age. Like there's just so much, right? Like looking at the sort of second half of your life, you're like, my God, I could there's I could do anything. Like that is terrifying and wonderful, you know? And so I think I think letting go of being and doing everything because it's caught up in capitalist, you know, patriarchy, right? Like it's it's it's this it also is just like It's just so soul sucking. It's so soul sucking, right? Like the grind, the the it's speaker-1: It's true. speaker-0: Anyway. speaker-1: You see online, I saw something where it's just like how many businesses would die if women weren't focused on their looks. And you know, I love makeup. I acknowledge that I feel good and I feel

confident and I love your lips because I always love lipstick on kind of thing. It's like my shield of armor. And I thought to I was like thinking about my recent purchases and stuff, and I didn't really think that I was easily influenced because I was just like, I like what makeup. Like, well, you know what? I did buy a certain type of lip gloss and I did buy a certain type of face cream. And you know what I mean? And it's like, I'm not even necessarily that concerned about wrinkles or anything, but we're we're inundated with all of these picture perfect things on Instagram. And these are crazy. Like I couldn't tell if there was a filter. You know, back in the day you could tell there was a filter. Now it was just like. I don't even feel like a measle influence. Imagine this future generation coming in where they think that this is normal to look like this and then have this high powered company. It's just like, but what they're not showing you is that they have a nanny. They're getting the liposection. They're getting and again, that's fine if that's what they want to do to find happiness. But I think we all just need to acknowledge that maybe everything isn't what it seems on the surface, you know? speaker-0: Absolutely. And I'm, you know, because I'm, you know, an educator, because I've sort of dedicated my my life to like understanding things, you know. I really think that our most powerful tool is just critical thinking, right? So to your point, it's like Yeah, we have to know that everything that we see is not real. We have to tell the truth about things. That's that's how I feel. I had to tell the truth about motherhood because I felt like everyone was keeping it a secret from me. I felt bamboozled. And I think that we need critical thinking and honesty and transparency and integrity. And I think that that's the way that we need to live our lives. And we cannot enforce that on everyone else, right? But those core principles will ensure that we are contributing to the present and the future generation by telling the truth, preparing them for what to expect, and equipping them with the critical consciousness to say, okay, I understand that my doing X will result in Y. Or I understand that there are forces out there trying to get me to buy things. And those things may not necessarily be good for me, for the environment, for the future, right? speaker-1: Now you said something earlier that was really interesting and I think something that we need to keep reminding people. What role does saying no play in women becoming more empowered? And why can setting boundaries feel so uncomfortable, especially for women? speaker-0: I think this question is really important to me right now because I have been sort of like meditating on boundaries and boundaries. so what I have come up with is that women's boundaries, girls, young women's, and women's boundaries are constantly run over. They are constantly not honored. They are considered again, the words

I used before inconvenient, too much, a problem, right? and so girls, young women and women slowly learn that having boundaries doesn't even matter. Right. That not only will they be violated, but then you'll be shamed for them as well. speaker-1: Yep, it's a lot. And I think we all experience this in motherhood, professional life, even personal. Like I'll set my own boundaries for myself and I break it to myself because it's just like, well, no, I'll put everyone else's feelings first and that's great. But I've set this boundary with myself. And if I don't respect myself enough to follow them, how am I expecting anyone else to respect those boundaries? So I think it's also looking internally and coming up with the reasons why you should honor boundaries to yourself and to others. speaker-0: Honestly, it's just often it's just fear. Like it's all, it's just fear-based. Like we haven't ever actually made a boundary that or communicated. We often don't even communicate the boundary, right? because we anticipate it being violated. And so then we just live in resentment, right? So the fear holds us back and we really need to experiment and try and Learn to tolerate the discomfort that comes from people being put out by your very reasonable boundaries. speaker-2: Can I say too, I as much as like as we're having this conversation, I do want to acknowledge what an incredible like power that the Facebook group that you've created that it has done in creating a space where women are allowed to explore that discomfort, ask the questions that make them anxious and nervous, and finding a space where they won't be judged. as they go through this grief and this new identity and this learning how to set boundaries and things. I think it was was it No Shame Sundays that you did for a long time? speaker-0: yeah, yeah. I haven't done that in a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-2: And just the power in that in creating a safe space for women to say the scary things out loud, say the things that live in the back of their head that they're so nervous to be judged for, that is such a powerful and such a beautiful thing. So just as part of all of this, thank you for not only being willing to have this conversation, but creating a space for so many women to have these conversations. speaker-0: I really appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. speaker-1: Now, just to kind of close things off, for the women listening who feels like she has completely lost herself, maybe through motherhood, a relationship, her career, or simply years of putting everyone else first, what is one thing she can do today to begin finding herself? speaker-0: Yeah, she can book an appointment with a counselor that she trusts and feels understands her, right? And sometimes that takes more than one meeting with a counselor or a therapist or a a social worker or who whatever you're comfortable with, right? I tend to encourage people to go to counselors and social workers because they understand the intersections of oppression. They understand the way that the world works, they understand. living in community and all of the kinds of expectations and and and things like that. So that's what I generally recommend to people. But the most powerful thing that you can do to center yourself and to find this non-judgmental support that you need is invest in your own mental health and do it today, right? Everyone needs a non-judgmental, objective outsider to your life. To tell you, to help you see, not to tell you, but to help you see, right? All of the ways in which. these these things are happening around and inside and to you, right? in ways that we can maybe not necessarily control, but we can certainly control our reactions and our healing and all of the things that create our reality, right? Our inner world and our reality. And so if you find yourself being triggered by everybody, if you find yourself being resentful, if you're constantly unhappy or sad or mad or whatever, you really just need someone that you can deal with. And friends are great and communities like this are great. And that is, these are all components of of coming into who you truly are. speaker-1: It's deep. It's it's this has been a conversation where looking internally, some things have to be looked at and explored a little deeper. So thank you for giving us the opportunity to do that. speaker-0: It is my absolute pleasure and thank you for connecting with me. Thank you for hearing me. Thank you for inviting me. thank you for what you're doing in the community. and thank you for allowing me to, you know, spread the gospel of fucking let's do this shit. speaker-1: I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. speaker-2: So I think one of our biggest takeaways is definitely that anybody who's planning on coming to our event in October after they've listened to you, come prepared with tissues in your pocket or be prepared that we're gonna like take all the toilet paper out of the bathrooms. Cause I guarantee there will be a few watery eyes in the room. So before we let you go this afternoon. Can you tell everybody where to find you online so that they don't have to just go off of our hearsay about how wonderful you are? speaker-0: yes, first let me say I'll probably do most of the crying, just to be clear. and you can find me at Eating Her Young on Facebook and Instagram. you're more than welcome to add me as a Facebook friend, Jackie Shoemaker Holmes. and you know, join us in Mummy Voices. It's Maybe not as active as it used to be when I was a young mom and needed it really badly because mom's groups tend to suck really badly. and so I needed to create one that didn't suck. But you know, it's a great place just to yeah, just to connect with other like-minded women and moms. speaker-1: I joined a mom group at one point and it at one point it was talking about first birthday cakes and like just put out a slab of watermelon That's not the group for me. Come out speaker-0: Yeah, like it's just the intensity, the the intensity of the shame in in most online forums for moms is it really was detrimental for me. It was really, really detrimental. speaker-1: If you want to give your kid watermelon for their first birthday, have at it, but don't judge me for buying my store bra bought sugar cake with dyed filled sprinkles, Emily. speaker-0: right, right. No, no, no. And I and I'm not saying that you're shaming. I'm just saying that like yeah, like it's hard to find a space where that is full of people who are just like, Yeah, you want to do that, I want to do this, and we're everybody's cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like like we can honor each other and and we need to honor each other's differences and and preferences and you know histories and presence and all of that kind of thing. And I think that that a lot of that is lacking when we just side-eye another mom. speaker-1: I think you know what was the best part of this conversation? We ended it and we still had some really great nuggets come out of it. So that it's never happened before. So that was really great. speaker-2: So all right. We could probably continue all afternoon before the dog continues barking and before we all end up like totally destroying our mascara. We will speaker-1: Well speaker-2: say thank you again for taking this time with us this afternoon. We cannot wait to actually get into the room with you and just be in your presence in a couple of weeks. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this conversation. I hope you had some tissues nearby.