Humility Scales Influence: Lessons In Succession, Mentorship, And Balance with Michael T. Archdeacon, MD, FAOA의 전체 녹취록

one caveat, the slight difference, is there's also some time devoted to whether or not the person aspires to move into the chair role and what some of the differences between a vice chair and a chair role might be, commitment-wise, time-wise, the qualifications and skills that you might want to work on and things like that. 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.399 So I think it serves a dual purpose in that environment. 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.160 But I personally haven't participated. 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.439 So that's my understanding, not from direct involvement. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.720 Tell us what you think or your story of how you were selected to become chair. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.279 I know you're in a very storied department with Dr. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.000 Stern, who's well known to all of us, and how all that kind of came about. 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:44.560 So I think I would say my leadership journey has been a series of opportunities. 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:52.879 And I don't think I had the goals of having the jobs that I currently have when I started my medical school or in residency or in practice, even. 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.040 I think they've evolved over time. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:02.800 But I was fortunate that in my department, there was not a huge interest in serving as a division director for my division. 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:04.800 So after a couple of years, Dr. 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:06.800 Stern asked me to serve in that capacity. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.800 And then there was a series of steps, like most of us, that opened a door. 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:13.439 I got more involved in the operating room committee. 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.800 At some point, I was asked to serve as the chair of the operating room committee. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:21.519 And then from that, I was asked to serve as the chief of staff for our medical center. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.240 And none of these were, I would say, planned, but one opportunity led to others. 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.519 And I'm certain that's very similar to most people's leadership journeys. 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:35.279 And from my perspective, the question is when a door opens, you have to decide if you want to walk through it or not. 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.680 And it's okay not to walk through every door. 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:47.120 But I think if you decide you're going to walk through, then you have to be intentional about what you're going to do and how you're going to make the most of your in the big picture, short time of leadership. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.360 And you brought up an interesting point there. 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.040 I've heard both sides of that. 00:06:51.279 --> 00:07:01.519 Many people say, I've heard this very frequently, but be very critical of the doors you go through, say no is whenever it's not a good fit, da-da-da-da. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:09.759 And then other folks suggest that the door is open, you need to move through it unless you're clearly not qualified, or that's not your sweet spot. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.079 And you kind of struck a middle ground there. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:28.480 So if folks are considering this along their leadership journey, what is your overall general advice in terms of which how do we strike the balance between going through to open doors and versus saying no? 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.839 Yeah, I think it's a very good question, Doug. 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.639 And I guess I think one, it's very different for each individual. 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.040 What motivates people is going to be different. 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:39.040 We're all somewhat motivated by ego. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.839 You don't go move into jobs that have titles if you don't have some ego drive. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.360 Many of us like to make change, be involved in positive change. 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.079 So it's an opportunity to be involved in positive change. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:52.480 Some there are maybe financial considerations. 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.360 I think there's a whole spectrum of reasons that people pursue leadership opportunities. 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:08.800 My personal kind of feeling is that if you're not excited about the opportunity and understand the difficulties the opportunity brings, then you're probably not ready to accept the role. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:13.439 And then to the point made about if an opportunity is there, you should capitalize on it. 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.040 I completely understand that. 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:22.800 I do think that my mantra has always been if you do a good job and you're nice to people, there will always be opportunities. 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.360 And I've found that that's usually the case. 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:32.240 Now, maybe not in every opportunity in life, but it does feel like there's never a shortage of people asking you to do something. 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.720 If you do a good job, you're responsive, and you're generally nice to people. 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:41.279 So that's sort of been my mindset going into leadership opportunities. 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:43.519 Did you succeed Dr. 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:44.879 Stern as Chair? 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:45.759 I did. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.240 So that must have been quite a role to fill. 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:49.919 Intimidating to say the least. 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:50.399 Yeah. 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:51.360 Let's go into that. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:52.559 Tell us about that. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.559 So I would say it was intimidating, but at the same time, highly fortunate. 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:58.080 So for those who know Dr. 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.639 Stern, he's an incredibly humble person. 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:07.360 He is selfless, and he was those things for my entire time from the day he hired me. 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:14.320

And still, he still works a little bit in the Department Clinic League of one day a week seeing patients, and he comes to all the academic stuff. 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.279 He, I would say, in some ways, groomed me. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:22.879 He gave me the opportunity to serve as a division director and then later as a vice chair. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:32.000 He made sure I was networked and organizations like the AOA and the AOS and always served as a sponsor for me. 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:41.759 And because of those things, he really gave me the opportunity and helped me build the skills necessary, given those opportunities, and to hopefully succeed in them. 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.279 Taking over for him was certainly intimidating. 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.840 But again, to his credit, he was extremely humble about the transition. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:56.240 And he made himself available to me whenever I needed help, advice, or just a little mental support. 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:08.480 But he also never really stepped in the way, never made a comment about a decision that I would have made publicly, never ever badmouthed me or my decision-making process, always supported me with the other partners. 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:13.840 And I was very fortunate and blessed in that capacity because that can go the other way in a not so favorable manner. 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:20.159 But for me, he was a pillar and a role model in terms of how to gracefully step away from leadership. 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:23.039 And I hope to emulate that at some point in the future. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:24.879 And we should all be that blessed. 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:26.799 That's a tremendous opportunity. 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:28.720 Yeah, I'm very fortunate. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:34.559 So when I was in business school, we learned there's two jobs of the CEO, two prime jobs. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:40.879 One is strategic planning and strategic process, and the other one is succession planning to replace yourself. 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:52.639 Yeah, that is an epidemic problem across every healthcare organization I've been in, finding the successor for the strong, positive, dynamic leader. 00:10:52.960 --> 00:11:05.600 I mean, in my institution here, it is rare to find a department where there's a strong beta ready to take over if the chairperson came out. 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:11.200 What are your thoughts and how are you developing succession planning in your department? 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:17.679 Or is it just not even going to happen if you, if Mike Archdeacon left Cincinnati tomorrow that has to do an external search? 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:18.799 How does that work? 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.480 Yeah, so again, I think it you have to be intentional. 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.879 And a part of, I think one of our biggest roles in a chairperson role is faculty development and career plan. 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:34.799 And so I've I feel like

I've learned some of those skills over the last five, 10, 15 years, whatever. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.840 And it's very much a part of my regular meetings with faculty. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:45.440 So annual review and other touch bases is talking about career goals, career plan, and those kind of things. 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:54.240 So, with that as a backdrop, you start to get a sense of people are interested in leadership and you start to see where their skills and where they really excel. 00:11:54.639 --> 00:12:05.200 And I will say in my department, I think that at present, today, there are three very, very solid candidates for the chair role in my department. 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:13.279 When I'm either fired, removed, retire, pass away, whatever it is that occurs, that I'm no longer in this chair. 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:15.360 I think there are three solid candidates. 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:21.039 And my perspective then is it's my job to help them be the best candidate they can be. 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:22.320 It won't be my decision. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.879 It's a dean's decision, a search committee decision. 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:32.240 But my job is to help them be as prepared as they can be so that each one of them is the best candidate they have capacity to be. 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:37.919 And so we're very intentional about what assessing, you know, one, do you have the interest? 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:42.720 And if you do, where are your strengths and where are the skills that we need to focus on? 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.519 And for some, that's working on your financial acumen. 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:51.519 For other, it's conflict resolution and other strategic thinking or philanthropic goals, right? 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:57.039 Like learning how to engage philanthropically with potential donors in the community, et cetera, et cetera. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:13.919 So that's been our sort of path in my department is just trying to identify those who are interested, who have demonstrated the ability to lead, and then looking at what the opportunities are to help them be the best candidate possible when and if that comes up on their plate. 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:26.639 Yeah, but some of or a lot of the real important things to develop as a chair occur in the spur of the moment, you and your dyad partner, oh my gosh, this came up. 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:27.279 How are we doing? 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:29.679 We need to work through this click, click, click, click. 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:42.000 And many times the partial portion of the FTE that these folks that are vices or stepping into the role don't allow them to be in the midst of that. 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:47.519 How do we get past because it's one thing to say, all right, you're the PD. 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:49.360 So you're the vice chair of the PD. 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:55.120 If you do a good job at running the residency, that'll mean you'll do a good job

running the department, which we know is not the case. 00:13:55.279 --> 00:14:01.679 And a lot of the faculty issues that you deal with are for the moment have to be done now. 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:05.039 And that person doesn't necessarily sit in the room as you're doing it. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:20.480 How do you translate that leadership learning and that ability and that assessment of their acumen and their patients and their ability to deal with these crucial conversations when they're down the hallway in clinic or two floors down in surgery? 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.600 Yeah, I think that's a really good question, Doug, because you're right. 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:28.000 There are lots of decisions that you have to make when the situation presents itself. 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:29.840 I think there's a couple opportunities there. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.559 One is not all of them are made on the fly. 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:36.720 Even a crucial situation doesn't necessarily have to be resolved immediately. 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:42.000 And one of the things that I've tried to learn and be better at is that I don't always have to give an answer. 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:47.039 I oftentimes we feel obligated to answer when or when asked a question or posed with a situation. 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.000 Most of the time, you can buy yourself a little time. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:51.679 So I think that's one. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.320 And then you can engage them in one capacity or another. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:10.399 You can lay out the situation, get their feedback, and you may not bring them in because of privacy issues or things like that, but you can get their feedback and tell them and then bring back to them, close the loop on how you dealt with it and how their recommendation or feedback input might have impacted the situation. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.600 We've built an executive committee in our department. 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:23.519 And that executive committee is the constituents are the division chiefs and the vice chairs. 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.120 So in our college, we can have an executive vice chair if you like. 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:36.799 We have a vice chair of clinical, we have a vice chair of education and research, and we have a vice chair of well, we used to have a vice chair of diversity, equity, inclusion. 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.039 That's now it's inclusive excellence. 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.120 But my point is there are a number of vice chairs and a number of division chiefs. 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:57.120 And we try very hard to bring issues to the executive committee and have the group weigh in so that many of those decisions, not all, but many of those decisions are vetted through the executive committee and then brought forward. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:11.759 And we've gone even a step further that a lot of the decisions are not even rendered by, in this case, the chair of me, but we'll decide that maybe the best person to bring this to the group is the vice chair of clinical or and the vice chair of education. 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:25.840 Like rather than it coming from me all the time, we try to lay that work out and delegate it out with input from the rest of the executive committee so that it's not always one person handing out dictums and demands and things like that. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:27.679 It really does try to come from a leadership group. 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:28.639 And we're not perfect. 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.559 There's plenty of decisions I wish I'd have gotten more vetting on, et cetera, et cetera. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:41.039 But I do think that that's one of the things I've learned is having a group of leaders, one gives you a better perspective on things, and two, helps you implement things. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.039 Because when I have a team of people, in my case, the executive committee is seven. 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:50.080 When I have a group of seven that comes into the room and says, okay, we've talked this, we've edited out. 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:55.759 This is what we've decided as the executive committee, then it sells much easier to the rest of the group. 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:06.240 And it gives those people that are likely going to be your chair candidates, so the ones that are in those vice chair division director roles, it gives them the opportunity to see some of that leadership, how you have to think about things as well. 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.640 So it's not perfect, but it gives them more than they get otherwise in some cases. 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.440 Those cadence meetings, or you just call them ad hoc? 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:14.240 They're cadenced. 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:14.640 Okay. 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:15.599 How often do you do them? 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.880 Usually monthly. 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:24.400 And I say usually because on occasion there's a topic that we have to address and we'll have an ad hoc to add to the monthly cadence. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:30.640 And then there's occasions based on people's lives and schedules that we just can't meet one month and we'll push it off to the next. 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:38.799 But it's almost all, I would say it's at least 10 or 11 times a year cadence, with usually one a year that we end up not having for various scheduling reasons. 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:40.559 You do them in person or by zoom? 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:41.759 Uh in person. 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:48.160 With the exception that if somebody's out of town and is able to join in, we'll have them zoom in so that they can be part of the conversation. 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:50.640 But in general, we and we try to make it also social. 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:51.440 We have food. 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.480 We go to one of our houses, we rotate whose house it's at. 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:58.720 We have food, we have a social half hour, 40

minutes before we get down to business. 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.160 The executive vice chair writes the agenda, runs the meeting. 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:03.119 I don't run the meeting. 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:11.279 The executive vice chair runs the meeting, does the action items and the follow-up, and we try to delegate out responsibilities so that we're working as a team. 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.720 And again, it's not perfect. 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.240 There are times that I wish I'd have been more engaging as a group. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:20.880 And there are other decisions that unfortunately fall to an individual and you just have to make the call. 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:26.880 But it's been a good learning opportunity for me, and I think it's created a buy-in for the department. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:28.160 Sounds like it. 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:29.440 Sounds like a very good way to do it. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.279 So your meetings are about an hour or so. 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:33.359 If somebody's else, it's going to be longer than that. 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:34.720 Yeah, they're about two and a half. 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:35.920 Yeah, that makes more sense. 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:41.839 And we try to have them, we try to cadence it such that it's a day or two before our departmental practice meeting. 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.519 So we can bring follow-up items and new action items to the practice a day or two later. 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.519 And that seems to work out pretty well, also. 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.000 How many doctors are in your department? 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.079 Probably about 32, 33. 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:56.720 Okay. 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:58.559 And they under the business side. 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:01.279 And the academic department is closer to 50. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:02.400 Got it. 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:03.279 All right. 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.240 So when you first started out, of course, you were chair. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:17.039 Any recollections or any lessons learned during your very first couple of years or so as chair that looking back and go, wow, you know, if I had to do that one over again, I would have done this. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:21.519 Or did you hit a home run on something and say, wow, I was really proud of that. 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:23.920 Just in the first couple of years, we'll move through your career. 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:25.599 There's two things that come to my mind. 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.440 One is more of just an awareness. 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:34.240 Like I had no idea how much after hours, after work, work being a chair was. 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:35.599 Like I had no idea. 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:40.160 Like I thought, okay, you're going to have some recruiting calls and recruiting dinners, you're going to have grand rounds. 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:46.160 But what you don't realize, I think, until you're in the role is there's also search committees for other departments. 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.160 There's evaluations for other departments. 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:49.359 There's College of Medicine. 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.480 There's philanthropic. 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:59.759 There's all these other commitments that I had no idea would take so much of my time in the evenings, in the mornings, and on weekends that you just can't. 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.200 Can't do during your regular day-to-day operations and things. 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:10.160 So I think really understanding the commitment that it takes to do the job and what's expected of you to me was eye-opening. 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.680 And I didn't do a very good job of it. 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:15.839 I worked too much clinically my first two years, and it took me time to sort that out. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:24.880 Fortunately, I had a couple of senior chairs who mentored me and helped me understand why, because I wanted to, I operated three days a week and I felt like I could do this job. 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:26.160 And it turns out I couldn't. 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.839 And I think in hindsight, I wish I would have been more thoughtful about that. 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.400 And then I think an area that I really wish, still to this day, I wish I would have communicated better. 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.400 And that's to me where I've made the biggest mistakes is not communicating adequately. 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.119 And we, like many places, we had to assess our implant vendor situation. 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:49.920 And we were looking at, in particular, the trauma vendors. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:59.920 And we made the decision that we were going to, I made the decision that I was going to have the divisions that use the bulk of a supplier to be the deciders on the vendors we're going to go for. 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:05.599 So we all do hemiarthroplastys, but I was going to have the joint surgeons were the ones that were going to decide our joint vendors. 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.759 We all use some of the knot tying and some of those suture anchors and things like that. 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:11.440 But we decided the sports division. 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:12.880 Same thing in the trauma. 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:19.039 Everybody does some fracture work, but we decided the trauma division was going to make the decision on who our vendors were. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.400 And I still think that was the right decision. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:28.160 I didn't communicate that up front as clearly and as well as I should and the rationale for it. 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:35.680 And when we made a decision on our trauma vendors, it had a huge amount of pushback, consternation, a lot of anger and dissent. 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.799 Really, people felt like the rug was pulled out from under them. 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.279 And I still think it was the right path. 00:21:41.440 -->

00:21:47.920 I just don't think it was, it could have been brought forward better, could have been communicated better, the rationale, vetting it ahead of time. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.240 And I still think I would have done it the same way, but I really learned a lot from that. 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.799 And that was probably 10 years ago. 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:56.160 Very interesting. 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:57.359 Yeah, that's good. 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:06.319 Your very sweet wife, Lynn, how did she respond to your this increase in your afternoon, evening activity? 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.640 I mean, she's very accommodative and tolerant, and she's a very special lady. 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:15.119 How did she deal with these changes in your work life as you became chair? 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:16.400 Any advice for that? 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:24.640 Yeah, it that's a tough one because I think it's easy to look at our career goals and aspirations and what we get value out of. 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:32.880 The value that I get out of the time and effort that I put into it, my wife doesn't really get that value, nor did my kids when they were living at my house and growing up. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:49.279 So I think understanding that, having a very clear dialogue about it, and then figuring out how, in my mind, it's not paying it back, but giving an equal credence and importance to the things that are important to her that we make sure we prioritize. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:56.799 If I'm going to prioritize these things in my side of the equation, then we're going to figure out what we need to prioritize in her side of the equation. 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:57.920 And it's not perfect. 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.640 And believe me, she gives 80% and I give 20%. 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.559 So I'm very lucky in that regard. 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:21.759 But I think just being committed to trying to acknowledge that even though these are my aspirations and I get personal gratification out of it, it's not that gratifying for my wife and kids, the work that I do, you know, they're proud of me and they're supportive of me, but they don't personally get much out of the things that I achieve in my work life. 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:23.759 Now let's talk about your mid-career. 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:29.519 That's before you assume these other roles outside of the department or those senior leadership roles. 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:43.200 Anything pop to your mind during those periods of time, any lessons learned, any advice that you give folks after the, after you got the figure out where the meetings are, you know where you're going, people know who you are, all those things. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:47.519 And now you're in that mid-part where you're supposed to really start. 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.759 The flywheel goes and you start going. 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.799 Any recollections or thoughts from that period of time? 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.960 Yeah, I have a few things that come to mind. 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.440 So one is I think there's a huge desire to offer an opinion. 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.400 Like I've worked very hard to try not to offer my opinion when it comes right up. 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:13.440 Like I still have a lot of work to do, but I try very hard not to offer my opinion unless my opinion is going to one influence the conversation. 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:19.039 Two, I feel so strongly about it that no matter what the outcome is, I feel like it needs to be shared. 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:25.359 And that's a hard thing to do for me, it is, to sit quietly and listen and not just speak up when it comes to mind. 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.400 That's take, that's, I would say you've been very intentional. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:29.759 I'm still not very good at it. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:34.000 I'm better at it than I was 20 years ago, but it's still an opportunity for growth. 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:40.000 And then I think another one is along those lines, is not feeling the need to respond to something immediately. 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:41.759 We kind of touched on it before. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.240 Most circumstances have time. 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.319 There aren't that many that are, you have to make a decision right there on the spot. 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:54.720 And I've found and been mentored that, especially on a tough decision, give yourself as much time as you can. 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:59.839 And if you have someone you that can you can bounce it off of, then get as much input as you can. 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:05.039 And I, and that's aware an area where I developed some mentors that are outside my department. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:15.920 I had two different department chairs, 10, 15 years senior to me, that I developed relationships with, and I they served as someone I could bounce ideas off because they didn't have a dog in the fight. 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:22.000 And they could also look at it more less biased than an orthopedic surgeon because it's not their business and things like that. 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:30.480 So those are a few things that I think that I've learned, continue to work on, and I wish I would have been better at it 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.400 It would have probably saved me some grief. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.559 How did you pick those mentors? 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.839 So part of it was just circumstance, and part of it was I observed qualities that I thought would be helpful, right? 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:52.160 Like how to manage conflict, how to compose yourself in the public, how to have people listen to you, how to have influence without commanding the dialogue, right? 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.599 The one of the chairs I respected tremendously was the chair of older oncology. 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:02.240 He had an unbelievable knack for influencing the outcome

with few to minimal words. 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:09.119 And the reason was is that he was very thoughtful about what he said, and he said it usually after everyone else spoke. 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:11.920 He would weigh in and he didn't repeat things. 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:16.559 And I just found that that was like really great communication and impactful. 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.200 And I've tried to model it not nearly as successfully. 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:24.640 So part of it was just watching what I thought were good leaders, and then other parts were just circumstance, right? 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:29.839 I just happened to operate on the same day as the one of the former chairs of neurosurgery. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:31.359 So we'd sit in the lounge and talk. 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.079 And I had aspirations, so I would talk to him and pick his brain, and he'd give me feedback. 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:44.160 And over time that relationship grew and evolved, and and to this day, still he's been retired for 15 years, but still serves as a great mentor for me. 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.119 Wow. 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:47.119 How fortunate is that? 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.480 Let's talk about the folks that you serve as a mentor for. 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:57.680 How do you do you ever proactively start that relationship or do you wait for folks to come to you? 00:26:57.759 --> 00:26:58.720 How does that work? 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:00.720 I think it works both ways. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:06.000 I look for opportunities where I think you know, me being engaged would be helpful for them. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:16.160 It's particularly, it's a little easier when you're a department chair because one of my jobs is to have regular meetings with my faculty and understand what they want to do so I can identify where I might be helpful. 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:23.839 But even outside my department, I think one is to the best of my ability, I'm a big advocate of having kind of this, I'll talk to anybody. 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.480 It may not be right now, but I'll if someone wants to meet, I'll meet with anybody medical student, graduate student, department chair, faculty from another department. 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:33.200 It doesn't really matter. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.240 I'll meet with anybody. 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.640 It sometimes takes a little time to get it scheduled. 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.680 And I usually try to put a time limit around it, around 20 minutes, so that I can not spend too much time. 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:51.279 But I think one is just being available to people, they really appreciate, and you get a good sense if you're going to develop a relationship, if they go down that road, then it becomes easier to be a mentor. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.640 And then I think the other way is very intentional mentoring. 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:59.039 So I'll use the Orthopedia Trauma Association, an organization you

and I are very familiar with. 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:08.079 When having the fortunate opportunity to sit in some leadership roles, you see talented people and you know that they're going to be successful. 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:14.960 And I've engaged and tried to build relationships with some of those people to try to like, look, here's some mistakes that I've made. 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.240 Let's hope that my mistake can be your opportunity to learn. 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:23.920 And most of those people have been, I would say, very interested in sort of those kind of conversations. 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:30.720 So I think some of it's intentional, some of it's circumstantial, and some of it is someone comes to you for whatever the reason. 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.359 They see something that they want to learn from you, type of thing. 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:34.880 Very good. 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.359 All right, let's move on to the stage in your career you are now. 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.200 So you're a well-respected, accomplished department chair. 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:45.759 When you're in the meetings, people know that's Mike. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:48.960 He's got his act together, his department's running smoothly. 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.480 And then these additional positions come on. 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:58.640 So you have a position within the medical school, within the academic system, and then also within the physicians group, right? 00:28:58.960 --> 00:28:59.200 Yes. 00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:02.559 Very, very different, different jobs, different things. 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:18.319 They're either interested in those roles or they're being approached for those roles, and they're a little unsure of how to proceed with that. 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:20.000 How do you evaluate those? 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:23.680 How do you decide what to get into, what not to get into? 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:28.079 Any suggestions on the application process or any of those things? 00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:29.759 What about bandwidth? 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:36.880 Just give us your advice and your thoughts on those positions, those other things above and beyond being department chair. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.759 Yeah, I'm going to hit on the bandwidth first because I think that's the most delicate balance. 00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:51.279 And without question, serving in my college/slash practice plan leadership roles has come at a cost to my department. 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.880 I have dual obligations and there is a conflict at times. 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.000 And I have to balance that. 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:59.119 Sometimes I do it okay, sometimes not as well. 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:11.759 And I think that's one of the values of my having my executive committee group is that it helps me counterbalance my other roles and responsibilities and my commitment to the department and my responsibilities for the department. 00:30:12.079

--> 00:30:17.359 So I think you have to sort out if you're going to choose other roles, how you're going to balance your obligations. 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:24.400 And that to me has been, I would say, my biggest struggle with some of these more senior leadership roles in the last few years. 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:31.920 That said, how to look at the opportunity, I think it really comes down to where you think you're impactful and what you're interested in. 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:37.519 And I, right, wrong, or indifferent, felt that I was impactful in the leadership sphere. 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:43.680 Like I felt like that was an area where I could bring something valuable or at least positive to the table. 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:51.279 So in our practice plan leadership role, the bylaws state that it has to be an acting chair to serve in that role. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.599 So there's a small candidate group. 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:58.079 And when the role became available, you applied for the role. 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:02.079 And at the time, I felt like it might be something that I could do. 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:09.920 And I like having the ability to influence, not so much make decisions, but influence how we're going to look at things. 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:18.240 And being amongst the group of chair peers, the influence was more so than in my department, which was super fulfilling. 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.640 But instead of 30 to 40 people, now it's 1,500. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:34.960 And that's from my eyes, I could make some impactful I could have part of impactful decisions and help look at impactful decisions that go beyond my day-to-day lens. 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:37.440 How'd you evaluate? 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:39.680 So they're two very different roles, right? 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:45.200 I mean the the physician group role is different from your university, your school level. 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:46.640 Well, they are and they're not. 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.079 They have different responsibilities, but they're actually coexistent roles. 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:55.519 So if you the senior associate dean also serves as the practice CEO, they kind of go together. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:03.359 And then on one side, you serve as the university's lead for the clinical practice and recruitment and things like that. 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:15.119 And on the other hand, it's the liaison to the health system and how the physician, we lease our physicians to the health system and how the physician practice is going to incorporate into the health system. 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:23.920 So the two roles are different in their responsibilities, but they overlap that having a single person is probably not a bad way of doing it. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.160 That's obviously a biased opinion. 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:31.519 So, how do you evaluate yourself to know that that's the position for you? 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:32.960 Or is

there any thoughts into that? 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:43.680 Did you guys do any formal processes where you did any personal personality or any other type of inventories or just through your mentors or your friends saying, hey, Mike, you'd be really good for that? 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:44.400 How did that work? 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:51.039 Yeah, I would say both with these roles and with just my own personal leadership skill development. 00:32:51.279 --> 00:33:02.319 So I think personally I've had a professional coach for probably 12 years, and that was very helpful, mainly to have someone to bounce things off outside of my profession. 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.960 And secondly, someone who could really assess what my strengths and opportunities were. 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:13.839 And we did formal things like a Hogan assessment and things like that, developing a plan, how I'm going to improve my leadership skills. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.279 What are the areas I need to work on? 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.359 So that was sort of the extrinsic. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.799 And then internally for the particular role, the CEO role, there was an interview process. 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.359 We didn't actually do a formal assessment, but the chairs had had assessment. 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:31.279 So knowing that it had to come from a chair, that assessment had already been done. 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:42.160 So some of that leadership assessment, again, using a Hogan inventory system, as well as Myers Briggs, which I think has maybe fallen by the wayside a little bit in terms of how people evaluate. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.559 But some of those tools are used not infrequently in our university. 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:58.720 And then again, extrinsically having someone with that I intentionally engage to help understand the opportunities I have to work on as well as the things that I could leverage as strengths. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:01.359 Or do you pay for that? 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:03.279 That one's out of my pocket. 00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.240 So you and Lynn just talked about it and said, Hey, I need this. 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:07.680 And Lynn was like, sure, go ahead. 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:08.320 And that was that. 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:09.679 It was more or less like that. 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:13.920 I think the way I look at it is an investment in your career. 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:21.280 And I think people look at price tag for that kind of work and they're like, oh,$25,000 a year, that's a lot of money. 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.039 And it is, don't get me wrong. 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:32.719 But I think when you look at what we do and how we're compensated and what you get out of those kind of things, if it's important enough, it feels like it's a good investment. 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:37.840 And most of those engagements, in my experience, are it's pretty high up for that first year. 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:43.679 The

ongoing dialogue is much less because you're not going through continued assessments and things like that. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.000 It's more about a cadence of conversations. 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:48.719 So the cost up front is pretty high. 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.480 The maintenance cost is more reasonable. 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.119 It's still expensive, but it's more reasonable. 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.239 Now you have a substantial amount of credibility professionally across the country. 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:04.079 You and I served extensively on the OTA board together and we know each other very well. 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:10.239 And a large portion of that credibility is the fact that you continue to put scrubs on, wash your hands, and operate. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:21.199 If you go up really much higher at all in in the university at Cincinnati, there, you're probably not going to be taking calling where you're probably not going to be operating. 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:22.880 You're going to just be a full-time suit. 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:24.320 Thoughts on that? 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:26.000 How does that how do you make that? 00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:27.760 Have you considered that decision? 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:36.559 Have you thought, would I ever give up being a clinical physician and just being saying I used to do this, but now my full-time role is administrative? 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:38.320 Have you considered that at all? 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:40.079 Yeah, I actually I have. 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:46.000 I'm at a point where I think I'm getting towards the end of my chair tenure in the next few years, probably. 00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:47.760 And I'm what are my next steps? 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:50.320 And I've thought about just exactly as you phrased it. 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:56.800 Would I be interested in another tier of administrative role, whether it be in a health system or a college? 00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.880 Or what are the alternatives? 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:05.199 And I think for me, like I find a tremendous amount of joy from taking care of patients. 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:06.400 I really like that. 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:10.480 It's interesting that that's the least stressful environment I work in, is the operating room. 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:12.880 As a trauma surgeon, I think that's kind of funny. 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:15.280 Literally, people's lives are in your hands, right? 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:20.239 It's less stressful than the meetings that I go to, which I find erotic. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:33.039 But I think for me at this point, we've talked about it, Lynn and I have had the conversation that I think in a few years, probably somewhere between two and four, depending a little bit on the department, the dean, where we're at, etc., a few goals that I want to try to accomplish. 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:41.679 I think my current plan is to probably transition out of leadership and pick up clinical practice, maybe not at 100%, but like 80%, right? 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:49.360 Like maybe I go back to doing operating two to three days a week and seeing patients a full day a week and then do a day a week not working. 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.360 That's sort of the current thought. 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:57.920 And I mean, I guess anything can change, but that's sort of where we're at because I don't know that I want to give up clinical practice. 00:36:58.079 --> 00:36:58.800 I like it a lot. 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:00.159 It's very fulfilling. 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:08.239 And like you, before this more recent spin, I've been in the same environment for almost 25 years, and I get to see a lot of people. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:15.280 I just saw a I just operated on a patient yesterday that I took care of 17 years ago, which is really neat and it's fun, and I like it a lot. 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.079 And so that's my current thoughts, but I agree with you. 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:33.280 I think like one more tier, whatever it might be, if you want to be a formula in the C-suite or a real like a dean or executive vice president of health affairs or provost or something like that, I think it becomes almost impossible to maintain clinical practice. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.679 And that's purposely the reason that I haven't I've not wanted to give that up. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:39.920 And I think even now I wrestle with it at times. 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.960 Like I make it difficult for everyone to do clinical work around me because of my other commitments. 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:48.559 So the residents, so like I'm like, guys, I can't start till eight o'clock today. 00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:51.360 I I gotta leave conference because I got to go to this meeting. 00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:54.079 So I make it difficult on everyone else around me. 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:56.320 I like to think it maybe helps my department. 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:56.719 I don't know. 00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.880 You might, my department may not feel that way. 00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.599 Right. 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:01.519 I know exactly how you feel on that. 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.679 And I'm sure many people listening do as well. 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.960 I'm sure you just strong hit a lot of heartstrings on that one. 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.719 All right, so let's roll this thing up with knowing when to step down, which you kind of talked into. 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:20.960 So our friend Mark Swinkowski has that hard and fast 10-year rule, both on him being chair and then also on him being editor for JPJS. 00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:28.000 He said it for 10 years, told everybody, I've heard Mark say this story many times where he told everybody going in, it's 10 years. 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:33.119 Y'all better start getting ready to replace me because I am out at 10, and everybody thought he was kidding. 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.039 And

then he got there and he's like, no, I'm done. 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:36.639 And that's how it goes there. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:42.639 And then we know other folks that stay in way over their expiration date. 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.760 How do you assess this was a good run? 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.639 It's time for me to get out of the way, let somebody else do this. 00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:50.800 How do you figure that one out? 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:53.119 I don't know that I have the answer. 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.760 One, because I'm not there yet, but I'm certainly thinking about it, but I can tell you where my thoughts are. 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:02.079 So, one is I understand Mark's role of 10 years. 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:08.239 I think it took me almost 10 years to build the structure that I think is now fairly effective. 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.480 So that took some time. 00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.960 And I almost feel like I would have been abandoning my commitment if I would have jumped out of 10 years. 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:21.199 Now, more likely, Mark is much more efficient and better at building things than I am, and he did it faster than me. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.880 And it took me 10 years. 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:26.880 But then honestly, I think for me, at this point, it's goal-oriented. 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:31.039 I have a couple of goals that I want to try to achieve before I step down. 00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:36.960 And I articulated those goals a while ago, and I had an idea how long it would take me to achieve them. 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:39.840 And I'd like to try to bring those things to fruition. 00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:56.159 That said, I think right around this, I said a couple of years, two to three years, I think if in in two to three years, if I have not achieved those goals, I think the logical question is what makes anyone think I'm going to achieve them in two more years or three more years or five more years? 00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:03.119 So I've set these couple of goals or what I'd like to achieve, but if I Don't get them done in two to three years, then I think it's time. 00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:06.079 I feel pretty strongly that I don't want to be complacent. 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.960 I want new energy, new ideas, and I don't want to stay in a role because it's working. 00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:12.880 I want it, I want us to be dynamic. 00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:17.679 But I think if I can achieve those goals, it puts the department in a better place for the next chair. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.920 So that's sort of how I'm thinking about it. 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.800 I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's sort of my mindset. 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.800 I'm not going to ask one more question. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:28.159 I'm not going to ask you if water is wet and the sky is blue because we know the truth. 00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:29.360 We know the obvious things. 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:45.920 But on the not so obvious things, is there any skill set or anything that you learned or developed as department chair that enabled you to be a better leader within the Orthopedic Trauma Association, within the AOA? 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.599 You were on the board of counselors for Ohio and the BOC, correct? 00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:52.159 You've you've served in a number of organizations. 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:53.920 Were there things that you picked up? 00:40:54.079 --> 00:41:08.159 Obviously, not the obvious simple silly answers that we all know the answer to, but something that's a little unique, or I wouldn't have thought of that had come up that when you were OTA president or and you were Ohio president too. 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:08.960 Yeah. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:11.840 That kind of helped you in that capacity. 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:20.159 Yeah, I don't know that it's unique to me, but uh the thing that keeps resonating for me and I struggle with and continue to try to work on is humility. 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:24.000 Just learning that I I'm one, not always right. 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.000 Oh, I'm rarely right. 00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:31.519 Two, that the group will almost always have a better decision than the individual. 00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:31.920 Right. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:36.159 And that learning to respect and understand other opinions. 00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:42.559 Because, like a lot of people, I feel like I see it very clearly, and clearly I don't. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:55.679 So learning the humility to be wrong, to acknowledge being wrong, to be open to other people's opinion, having group decision, those kind of things have something that I've had to work on and continue to work on. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:03.840 But I think to me, that's been one of the most valuable skills that I've tried to work on, and it's paid dividend where I've been successful with it. 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:05.679 Wow, that's fantastic. 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.360 What a great way to end this. 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.679 This has been an absolute pleasure talking with my friend and colleague, Dr. 00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:18.639 Mike Archdeacon, who is well known for his work in pelvic and acetabular trauma and trauma in general overall. 00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:25.280 I served extremely high levels within our organization, serving as president of the Trauma Association and other locations as well. 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:28.559 And then also very high roles within the University of Cincinnati. 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:30.639 Mike, thank you very much for being on the podcast. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:31.440 Thanks, Doug. 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:32.880 I really appreciate the opportunity. 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.000 I love the AOA supporting these leadership things. 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:41.199 There's so much to learn from our peers and colleagues, and it's really a pleasure to be part of it and humbling. 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:42.000 Yes, sir. 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:48.079 And y'all stay tuned for future podcasts on this podcast channel within the American Orthopedic Association.