(6.04) A Kaleidoscope, Not a Recipe: Systemic Leadership in Polycrisis의 전체 녹취록

00:04:53.800 We're hidden blends. 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:54.519 Yes. 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:56.919 This one has four, two of which I've never heard of. 00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:58.199 Overachiever. 00:04:58.360 --> 00:04:58.680 Yeah. 00:04:59.080 --> 00:05:01.639 So the first grape is coda di volpe. 00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:02.919 Don't know anything about it. 00:05:03.159 --> 00:05:03.399 Okay. 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:03.800 Okay. 00:05:04.039 --> 00:05:10.279 Next grape is phalangina, which I know, and as a varietal, it's a wonderful fresh grape wine. 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:10.680 Yeah. 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:16.600 There's fiano, which is becoming much more known here in Australia, particularly in the in Adelaide Hills. 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:16.920 Okay. 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:17.879 They make fiano. 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:18.199 Yeah. 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.319 And then Greco, another grape I know nothing about. 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:21.879 Wow. 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:22.279 Wow. 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:24.199 So these are quite ancient grapes. 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:24.680 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:31.480 This winery, Mastro Berardino, that creates the Bianco Campania, is known for that. 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:34.519 And what do we expect from this as a flavor profile? 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:38.120 Well, because we have two blind spots, I don't know. 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:39.160 That's a good point. 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:39.959 That's a good point. 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.240 So let me turn, let me turn to our good friends and I'll tell us. 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:43.959 They will tell you. 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:44.519 Yeah. 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:51.000 They suggest I see if I read this, then it's going to what's the word I'm thinking of? 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:52.759 The the power of suggestion? 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:53.240 Yes. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:54.839 So I'm not going to read it. 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.120 Don't read it because then you'll ask me what it tastes like. 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:00.360 And I'll go exactly what they said. 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:01.000 What? 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:01.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:02.120 Okay. 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:03.079 Let's not do that. 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:03.959 Let's not do that. 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:05.639 Um I've just resisted reading it. 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:08.680 So what I will do though, yes, is open it. 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:09.240 Yes. 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:11.720 And then we will see what the blessings are like. 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:16.040 See what the profile and then let's compare it against what's on the bottle. 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.560 Now we normally we normally share this with our guests. 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:19.800 Yes. 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.360 And we ask our guests, what do you think of the wine? 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:22.839 Yes. 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:26.120 Unfortunately, this lovely guest isn't in the room. 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:28.519 Are you drinking anything, lovely guest? 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:33.639 Well, I've got wine envy because I've got a nice cup of tea here at the moment. 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:37.160 So you please enjoy on my behalf. 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:38.519 I'm there with you though. 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.079 You've you've given me a great lead into it. 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:42.439 So I'm with you. 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:47.879 And hopefully we can have you back on so that we can share some wine with you. 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:48.839 Would love that. 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:50.120 That would be wonderful. 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:50.920 Lovely. 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:52.680 It's a cool KG. 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.000 Ooh, this is this is the challenge. 00:06:55.319 --> 00:07:02.920 I'm gonna tell you guests that this is where um you know we we do a little bit of sweating, especially Paul, because he does the actual open. 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.160 And hopefully all goes well. 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:06.199 Are we ready? 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:07.480 There you go. 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.519 Oh, perfect pop. 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:11.480 Very nice. 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:14.920 I'm I'm gonna capture that one for a sound effect because that was perfect. 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.000 That was real effects. 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:21.639 All very um practical effects here. 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.480 But I'm you know, I'm thinking commercially I could sell it, you know, as a sound effect. 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:27.079 Do people do that much? 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.120 Uh they do, and then there are probably a middle cork opening cork, popping corks. 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.480 Yeah, you're ruining my my my bath. 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:36.839 Sorry, thank you. 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:39.560 The anticipation's killing me now. 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:40.680 So us too. 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:42.439 I will show. 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.720 Oh, I've got the oh, beautiful color. 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:46.920 Nice, nice. 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.040 Almost a very pale straw, I would say. 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:53.399 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.959 Look, definitely it looks light if I if I can say that. 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:03.800 Sometimes you you can see it and it's got more legs, and you can see that it's looks heavier. 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.240 This one looks really light. 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:08.279 What can you smell? 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:09.399 White. 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:11.240 No, okay. 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.000 It's there is a bit of tropical notes. 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.319 Maybe some white peach or yeah. 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:27.319 Uh let me kind of stop you there because yes, and listeners, all has already read the notes. 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.439 No, I haven't read I haven't read the tasting notes. 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:31.319 You haven't had okay. 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.759 I

only read I only read the um the bit about the winery. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:35.559 You stopped, okay. 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:36.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:38.360 Yeah, it's I won't tell it a white. 00:08:39.079 --> 00:08:40.279 They're gonna cheat on us, okay. 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:41.559 Telling little fits. 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:43.879 Yeah, fair enough. 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:44.519 Keep me honest. 00:08:44.839 --> 00:08:45.559 I understand this. 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.079 But no, I haven't read the uh tasting notes, so we don't know. 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:54.920 But I'm getting a little bit of white peach or tropical things like um melon or something. 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.879 Uh definitely uh a tropics kind of smell. 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:00.680 Yeah, and it feels summery already. 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:02.039 You can have it any time of year. 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:02.519 I know that. 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.519 And yeah, you know, I'm sure whoever's listening, whatever time of year, it's gonna be great. 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.120 But it's gonna sound weird. 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:09.559 I'm getting banana. 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:11.879 I did not get that, but that's okay. 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:13.720 That's I'm getting it on the palate. 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:15.639 Okay, that's really nice. 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.120 Yeah, it is very rounded, textured. 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.519 Feels your whole mouth, you can kind of feel it. 00:09:20.839 --> 00:09:24.440 It's got some body, some texture, it's got some depth. 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:26.519 That is delicious. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.879 I think I need to go and get myself a glass of something now. 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:34.519 You're just a cup of tea isn't cutting it, I'm afraid. 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.000 This um it's beautiful and textured, like you said. 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.960 It's got a beautiful mouthfeel, it does cover your mouth. 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:43.799 Some citrus, it's nice balance. 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:48.759 It balances with a tropical, so it's not a coinly sort of fruity wine. 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:50.360 No, no, it's quite balanced. 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.519 And you and you know, I'm anti-sweet, and it's not, so that's great. 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:56.519 It's just kind of that a nice balance. 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.639 You've got a little bit of just the flavor that carries it through, but not gonna be sweet for you. 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.080 So it's very nice. 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:10.440 So, folks, this is a mastro berardino mastro bianco campagna 2024. 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:11.240 Wow. 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.840 And I'm just gonna be curious, what do the show notes say or the uh the tasting notes? 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.600 Okay, and then we've got to go find what should it taste like, okay. 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.039 Aroma, uh no, that's not it. 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:27.240 Yes, here it is.

00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:30.600 It says the wine offers a pale straw hue. 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:32.679 Mmm, check it out. 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:33.720 You are on it. 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:34.759 Yeah, okay. 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:35.720 I think I'll stop there. 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:37.879 Fruit-driven profile. 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:40.600 Aromas of fresh flowers, didn't get the flowers. 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.039 No, no, pineapple, didn't get that. 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.679 Peach, you got peach, yeah, yeah. 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.200 And citrus, leading to a clean, refreshing palette. 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:58.679 Yeah, we've got that crisp acidity, flavors of lemon, quince, didn't get the quince, and stone and stone fruit, which we've got the stone fruit. 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.120 Doesn't say anything about banana. 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:01.559 No, no banana pole. 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:02.120 That's all right. 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:02.519 That's okay. 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:06.600 You've just got an extra sophisticated palette, you get, you know, you get the very kind. 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:08.039 You're very kind. 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:09.879 So it's a challenge to our listeners. 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:10.279 Yes. 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:19.879 Go to Anandale Cellars, A-C-E-L-L-A-RS.com.au, buy yourself a bottle of the Mastro Bianco Campania 2024. 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:21.000 Yeah, or six. 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:21.799 Or six. 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:24.759 And tell us, tell us, do you get banana? 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:24.919 Yeah. 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:26.600 Do you get banana when you taste this? 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:28.919 Because I do, and it's not in a bad way. 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:29.399 No, no. 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:30.679 It's in a very nice way. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.360 And and you may be asking, why do you know what you do? 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.519 So there is a special thing that you get. 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:45.320 If you buy at least six, you get a 20% discount. 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.519 And not just because you bought six. 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:48.919 No. 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:54.279 If you use the discount code of decanted, you get 20% off. 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:59.320 So um either walk in, tell them that you know us, or order on the code. 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:01.320 So the secret word, decanted. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:06.279 Just go in and say decanted and immediately you'll get a 20% discount. 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:07.080 That's it. 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:09.320 Sorry, Chris, if that's not true. 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:11.159 It's now it is now. 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:12.120 We're gonna manifest this. 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:13.240 We're gonna manifest this. 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:23.720 So check out if you've got six or more bottles, 20% discount is yours by adding the word decanted into your discount code. 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:24.120 Yeah. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:25.559 Simple

as that. 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:26.279 Very nice. 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.759 In the meantime, we're gonna enjoy this. 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.519 Yes, Italian wine. 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:31.639 Actually, a sluncher. 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:32.919 This sluncher would be something. 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:36.120 Sluncher's even more appropriate. 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:43.639 Yeah, well, that's our that's our um our tag for when we we don't say cheers, we say sluncher. 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:46.679 And I don't know why we do that. 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:47.320 I don't know. 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:49.720 We've but we've been doing it from the beginning. 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:50.440 Yes. 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:52.840 Oh have you? 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.080 I thought it was just for me. 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:00.279 No, no, well, it just happens to be fit for purpose right now. 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:03.159 So this is the first time it's probably culturally appropriate. 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:03.720 Yes. 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:09.799 Are we ready, KG? 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:10.440 We are ready. 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:10.759 Okay. 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:13.399 Now that our whistles are wetted. 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:20.039 Yes, and we are excited and ready to enjoy more conversation. 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:21.159 I think that's what is happening. 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:22.200 That's what it's about. 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:28.519 I'd love to introduce you and our listeners and our wonderful guest, Liz Skelton. 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:37.559 Welcome, Liz, and thank you so much for taking the time to be with us for being so patient as we tackle some technical issues. 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:38.039 Yes. 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:39.480 Uh good. 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:47.960 I know why we wanted to invite you on the show, but before I explain this, I would love to hear your story. 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.960 What is the Liz Skelton story? 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:59.240 Oh, well, see, I'm at a slight disadvantage because I don't have a glass of wine here, but I've got a cup of tea. 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:06.120 So um, yeah, depending on what I've been drinking, that version of the story would be slightly different. 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.600 Uh there, yes. 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:20.440 I suppose in relation to what you talk about and what you like to explore on this, so I am from Scotland originally. 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:25.399 Um, I was actually, though, born over the border in Yorkshire. 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:42.200 So I hold kind of dual cultural part in the UK from Yorkshire, which people see is quite distinct from England, and Scotland, where I grew up, and found myself in Australia in my twenties. 00:14:42.919 --> 00:15:19.240 I came here and travelled around, spent quite a lot of time in central Australia with First Nations communities, and didn't think I would necessarily be back, did quite a bit of traveling, but then found myself back here

25 years ago, which was just for a few years, and then I blinked and um I'm still here, which and here is in Northern Rivers in Bungulan Country, up in Northern Rivers, New South Wales in beautiful Mull and Bimby, via Sydney and via Newtown, very close to Annadale Sellers. 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:23.639 So as you were talking about it, I know that bottle shop well. 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.039 I used to be a frequenter. 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.159 Fantastic, what a great callback, thank you. 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.840 So um, yes, you made me feel at home there. 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:33.320 Yeah. 00:15:33.559 --> 00:16:15.000 Yeah, so that's kind of a bit about, I guess, where I'm from and my journey into uh leadership, which is what I spend a lot of time thinking about and working in and focusing on, really came through working in not-for-profits and small grassroots organizations in Scotland, you know, working with a whole range of people, people with gypsies and travelers, um, young people who were drug users, and really working at that coal face around how do we try and make progress and make change. 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:28.519 And when I came to Australia, I worked with an organization called Streetwise, who was based in Redfern at the time, and they produced comics on different social health and legal issues. 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.840 But the one of the key threads was they had young people at the heart of that. 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:42.360 So young people who'd been involved in these issues were involved in, if you like, telling the story of it rather than adults doing it. 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:47.720 And I think that thread has been very strong all the way through my story. 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:54.519 It's about whoever you work with, the people who you're working with or on behalf of need to be at the central. 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:59.399 And while I was working there, I did a leadership program called Sydney Leadership. 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:17.799 This was back in 2002, and that was kind of one of those ork in the road sliding doors moments when I then started to look at leadership, if you like, as a way to think about how to address some of the root causes of some of the social issues that I've been working at at the coal fix. 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:18.360 Wow. 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:44.119 And that's really fast forward now, 25 years on, that's still very much the territory I'm in now, and supporting others to develop leadership which can help us thrive, be sustainable, um, navigate the complexity we're in, but also bring about addressing inequality and addressing many of the challenges we face. 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:55.559 So that's probably my kind of very short version of what I spend my time on, but I'll also spend my time playing and being involved in music as well. 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:01.480 So that's an important other part to talk about of the Liz Skelton story. 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:01.960 Yes. 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:02.519 Yes. 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:04.200 What do you play an instrument? 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.119 I play the guitar, yes. 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:07.319 I'm a newbie. 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:08.200 Are you? 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:10.279 Are you a vocalist? 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:11.960 I am, yes. 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:17.799 I've always sang, kind of went from the shower to various other places. 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:22.279 But yeah, I think growing up in Scotland, you just sang after a few wines. 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:30.839 But it's just when you got together with people, you know, everyone had their party piece, and um mine was singing. 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:31.079 Yeah. 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:35.799 Or are we gonna get a little bit of that? 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.400 Oh, but you could go, KG. 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:45.400 You could kick us off with that, and we could you you you two are on the wine, so let's see how we go. 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.279 But uh maybe that's probably another episode. 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.599 Another episode, some other some other episode. 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:55.240 And you have to hold your ears like a little, but let's wait. 00:18:55.480 --> 00:19:02.839 Just to explain also to you, KG, and to our listeners, I came to know of Liz through two channels. 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:12.039 One is my lovely friend and business partner, Naomi, Naomi Nash, from New River Leadership, uh you know quite well, I believe. 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:13.640 Yeah, I do, yes. 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:21.720 And so yeah, so some time ago, Naomi said, Oh, I think you know, you should think about meeting Liz and she'd be great for the podcast. 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.640 I said, Yeah, excellent, sure. 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.720 And then though, just maybe by coincidence, I'm not quite sure. 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:36.519 I picked up a book when I was doing some work with uh Theory Weary some time ago, and I picked up a book called Lost Conversations. 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:38.119 Oh, wow. 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:53.559 And it was it's a not a huge book, it's a really accessible book and talks about how we can uh I guess reconnect with the conversations that we aren't having or we haven't had and what that might take. 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.960 And I found it quite uh engaging, quite moving, quite resonant. 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:05.319 And I thought, oh, at the back of it, it says, This is the email if you want to talk to one of the authors or somebody. 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:05.559 Yeah. 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:10.359 I sent off an email, I said, Look, I'd love to talk to somebody, maybe even have them on the show. 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.279 Uh I never heard back. 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:18.279 But then I got back to my notes where Naomi had said, Go and talk to Liz. 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:31.640 So I reached out to Liz, and then as I was doing that, I had the book for some reason uh on my

shelf, and I looked through it and I I saw Liz's name on so she was one of the co-authors of conversations. 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.559 I thought so, I thought, oh, this is this has to be it. 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:35.960 Yes. 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:49.960 Um, which also, Liz, gives me a sense of the breadth of your interests in maybe both your professional life and I think maybe your academic life. 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:55.640 You seem to have traversed quite extensive landscapes. 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:57.079 Would that be right? 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:05.640 Yeah, I I've have been I've played in, worked in, lived in many different places. 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:09.640 I think partly I on one level get a bit bored easily. 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:18.839 So I do find myself kind of looking that, but also I think I think I always thought systemically. 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.480 So I've often seen the interconnection. 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:31.400 So whilst on paper, you might look at what I've done and where I've been and go, this looks like a bit of a disparate map or a dog's breakfast. 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:31.799 Yeah. 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:37.160 But there's a connection, I would say, between it all, and it's all in relationship. 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:44.279 So yeah, but it means I've crossed different sectors, I've lived in different countries, I've played many different roles. 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.880 But I think there's been some common threads underneath all of those. 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:50.200 And what do you see as those common threads? 00:21:50.440 --> 00:22:01.559 If as you, I guess, reflect on the journey you've taken and the paths you've chosen, what have you seen as the common threads for you at that time? 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.839 As soon as I said that, I thought you're gonna ask me what they are. 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.960 So I'm that predictable. 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:08.599 Yeah. 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:17.960 Well, I think the first one I mentioned, which was from the work I did in my 20s in Edinburgh, you know, working with young people. 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:29.160 It was in the rave scene in the early 90s, and there was nothing about, you know, there's a lot of recreational drug use, and there was really nothing, people didn't really know how to navigate that. 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:41.640 So what we did was had young people at the heart of telling their stories and creating their own information for them and their peers so that they could be better informed and reduce harms. 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:52.680 So that thread, if you like, about having ensuring that you know, if there's something you're working on, then you speak to the people who are involved or you have them involved at the heart. 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:55.720 Of it has been a bit of a no-brainer for me. 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.880 And that thread has continued in whatever context I've been in. 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:18.119 So now, you

know, I'm working in systems change and in different places where making sure the communities are the ones there because you know, this thread being that people have really got the answers to their own challenges, but we often look outside or we go to other places for it. 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:19.880 So I think that's been a thread. 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:26.039 I'd say another one has been about kind of delving underneath and getting underneath things. 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:28.920 And I would credit early 20s. 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:42.759 I did communication studies as a degree and had no idea what I wanted to do with it beyond not do something which was about making corporates richer or, you know, selling hairspray, something along. 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:44.680 I wasn't really interested in that. 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:49.720 I was interested in how you could use that to make things better. 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:55.240 And the other side to that was it was a bit of a new degree I did. 00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:12.039 They were kind of making it up as they went, but I would say that the most valuable thing I got was a way to reflect, analyze, look underneath things, have multiple interpretations of what was going on, not just the first thing that you see. 00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:29.160 And that has been a common threat through developing leadership and running organizations, is to help people broaden how they might be thinking about something and looking at it, including myself, first and foremost. 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:39.799 And I think the other piece is around, you know, an intrinsic belief in what can happen when people come together who bring different ways of seeing. 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:50.759 Again, if I think about what was formative in that, my, you know, my mum and dad growing up in Scotland in the 70s, my dad was Catholic and my mum was Protestant. 00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:54.200 And at that time, you know, that was that was risky. 00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:57.000 They were seeing, I was told I was from a mixed marriage. 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:01.000 I can remember going home going, What's a mixed marriage? 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:01.400 Yeah. 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:08.680 But the way that we like to label people and separate them just didn't make sense because that wasn't my experience. 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:17.960 And then, you know, when I when I went and studied, I came across Edward Saeed's work about orientalism and how we other people. 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:18.519 Yes. 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:29.160 So that's been a very strong influence for me in challenging that and being able to catch when I do it and when I notice it's happening. 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:33.559 That in those moments when we other, we stop being in relationship. 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:45.160 And yeah, there's so much in that, I think, that leads to what we are now seeing in the world where we forget the relationality we have, and we all suffer from that. 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:51.799 So I think that thread has been a key part for me about bridging perceived differences. 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:57.799 Because often they're perceived, and finding how do we bring different ways of thinking. 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.680 Because for me, that's when the magic happens, you know. 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:07.319 My experience has been bringing people with from different places, different attitudes, a wee bit like music. 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:13.240 You know, you bring different instruments together and you produce something you couldn't do by yourself. 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:22.039 So that has been a really strong theme that, you know, I'm very passionate about and know it's really hard to do as well. 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:33.319 Speaking of something hard to do, there is something that you said earlier that I just want to dig into a little bit because I wonder whether it's at the foundation of some of the work that you're talking about. 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:53.880 You talked about holding different perceptions or different definitions or different views of the world or whatever's happening simultaneously at the one time, which strikes me as quite a skill, because uh the potential perceptions or views of a particular thing may not only be multiple, they could be infinite. 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.400 How does one acquire that skill? 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:13.799 Or how would you go about supporting someone in acquiring that skill of holding multiple and potentially contradictory perceptions of that thing that they are talking about or experiencing or living out? 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:15.559 Yeah, it's a good question. 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:21.000 And I'll I'll try and avoid jumping to different theories or or frames there are. 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.279 I mean, I think about it a bit like a kaleidoscope. 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:32.920 You know, when you were kids, you've got those kaleidoscopes that you you look at something and you get all the different colours and fractals, and then you turn it. 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:41.400 Yeah, and it changes, and then you're you're looking at the same thing, but it looks really different once you just turn the dial a wee bit. 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.480 Or the other way is we're putting on different glasses. 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:50.839 I've got multifocal, so I can see short, but I can see further ahead as well. 00:27:51.000 --> 00:28:02.759 And in a way, it's a bit like that to see that when we only look at things through one lens, and often it's the personal one, which is this is what I think, I feel, I believe. 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:08.119 Yeah, then we're fairly limited in that because we've all got blind spots around that. 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.640 That's been shaped by my prior experience. 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:18.359 And then, you know, my brain is gonna basically predict that it's gonna see everything through that lens. 00:28:18.599 -->

00:28:22.279 And I think for me, understanding that was a real breakthrough. 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:38.839 You know, there's so much neuroscience around this now, but the value then of being able to then have other pairs of glasses that you can look at things through to tune into other wisdom and other knowledge, and you know, just develop that as a practice. 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:53.640 And, you know, I draw on things like adaptive leadership to me was was the thing I came across in when I did this leadership program in 2002 that really was like a light bulb going off for me because it it gave me a framework. 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:56.839 I hadn't done anything around leadership before. 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.759 I never thought of what I was doing as being leadership either. 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.160 And in fact, I was really cynical about it. 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.759 And I was like, who are these people going off on this leadership program? 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.200 And who do they think they are? 00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:10.680 You know, the Scottish chip on your shoulder. 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.319 So I really resisted it for a while. 00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:43.480 And then through just the way that that was framed about how adaptation and change happens just completely gave me language for things that I had felt, perceived, navigated, you know, sometimes making a lot of mistakes, often making a lot of mistakes, but it gave language and helped me understand why those things had happened, but also helped me understand why and when I'd been able to make progress. 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:55.319 And for me, that was very much around it's called kind of small people politically, about having to work with people who um potentially perceived as the enemy. 00:29:55.480 --> 00:30:16.039 So if I use my experience, you know, in Scotland working in this drug education place, because we're working in clubs, etc., I was on a committee, the only woman I was in my late 20s, a lot of older men on there who, you know, didn't I felt didn't take what I was saying very seriously. 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:26.039 But what I wasn't aware of was the power that I had at that age, and also the perspective that I was representing people who had lived experience. 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.759 But we got major breakthroughs, felt like it was really stuck for a while. 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:41.480 And we got major breakthroughs when, you know, I then had a chat with one of the guys who was the head of the drug squad in the corridor on the way as we were walking out. 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.079 And we were like, what are you seeing? 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:43.960 What are you seeing? 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:50.279 And when I spoke to the young people when I went back, they're going, You can't talk to them, you can't talk to the police, you can't involve them. 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:54.200 And I'm like, well, let's just see what's possible. 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:54.519 Yeah. 00:30:54.759 --> 00:31:03.480 We ended up in an amazing collaboration because we could cross those, we had a common goal, which was we wanted to keep young people safe. 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:03.960 Yeah. 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:11.240 And we were able to then, if you like, peg and just hold some of those preconceptions. 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.880 But we acknowledged we had different roles and we had to play different roles there. 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:26.359 But we were able to do some incredibly innovative work together under the radar, which enabled us to get education and information to young people, which kept them safe. 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.799 And we could move much faster than the police could. 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:30.279 Yeah. 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:37.480 We had networks of young people who could educate each other, but we didn't have access to the scientific information we needed. 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:52.279 And so I think that was an example of where I not just had to overcome my own pre-judgments, I had to engage with the young people in the organization for them to lean in to that as well. 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:58.920 And, you know, it's just that willingness to take that step and then be in relationship and be proved wrong. 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:13.400 Well, it sounds like the early days of systems work, whether or not you defined it that way, you know, your ability to cross thresholds or demarcations where you think, well, the demarcation is arbitrary. 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.359 What if I just talk to this drug squad policeman? 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:16.599 Yeah. 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:17.160 What if? 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.880 What if who I should talk to, right? 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.400 Well, at that time, clearly it what it was frowned upon. 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:24.519 That's right, that's right. 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:29.000 But some instinct in you says that, yeah, we should have this conversation. 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:30.440 Move across those boundaries. 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:30.599 Yeah. 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:31.240 Move across. 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:37.400 And is that how you I mean, were you aware that what you were doing at that point around crossing those boundaries? 00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:41.240 Were you aware of the work that you were beginning to form for yourself? 00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:41.799 No. 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.440 I think you know, I'm pretty pragmatic. 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:53.000 I actually think that's also another thread is, you know, sometimes it's like, how can we just get something done? 00:32:53.240 --> 00:33:01.319 Like, how can we move this thing that we'd come together for weeks and weeks and sit around a table and it felt like nobody was listening to each other. 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.519 But people were. 00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.720 And it was just, you know, there was heat. 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:13.079 There'd been an incident where,

you know, some kid ended up in hospital, and we needed that heat to get attention on it. 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.680 But it forced me out of my comfort zone a bit, I think. 00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.079 But no, I don't think I was aware of it. 00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.160 I think it was just that desire to go, let's try something other. 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:32.039 And also, and seeing that we had some common, we had a common agenda, yeah, and that we had different roles to play, that it wasn't personal. 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:34.039 I didn't need to judge this person. 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:40.200 It was like we're all trying to do the same thing, but we've got different uniforms, if you like, or different hats on. 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:49.319 But the pressure was enormous because I got a lot of pushback from the young people I worked with about betraying their cause, et cetera, et cetera. 00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:54.279 Sounds like you did. 00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:54.680 Yeah. 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:55.240 Yeah. 00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.240 And look, I look back at that time. 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.319 It's it's interesting we've started there because it's not something I think about very often. 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.319 But yeah, I was in my late 20s. 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:08.760 I'd never been in a leadership role, I've never managed anything, but I was willing to jump in. 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:11.960 I think that's that's been a blessing and a curse. 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:16.039 I would kind of jump over the edge without a net often. 00:34:16.279 --> 00:34:29.480 And, you know, I got a lot of this stuff played out publicly because it was hot topics, and what we were doing was a bit radical, involving young people who were clubbers and whatever in the solutions. 00:34:29.720 --> 00:34:31.800 So a lot of it would be in the media. 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:44.199 And, you know, I spent a lot of time in the fetal position after some of these conversations because I had no experience in how to navigate that and blew myself up several times. 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:51.079 But I learned lots of lessons in those, it was only three years, but it felt like 30, I think. 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:55.239 Yeah, yeah, it was. 00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:56.119 It was. 00:34:56.599 --> 00:35:09.800 And I see I see many of those dynamics playing out today, and you know, with many of the people in leadership roles, either formally or informally, who I support, who I coach, who I run programs with. 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:19.559 But I think there's something about you've got to be in it and you've got to go through it to really understand the the push and pull and the things you're trying to navigate. 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:23.800 Yeah, you learn a lot about yourself at those times as well. 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.079 So there's Liz Skelton then in her twenties. 00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:28.039 Yes. 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:40.679 And with what I see as really foundational stones here, you've got this notion of the systemic thinking, even though for you it was basically an expression of pragmatism. 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:51.000 You had the possibility of kind of working with people who had very different ideas or very different points of view about the lives they were leading and their value. 00:35:52.360 --> 00:36:08.280 You had uh you were sharing different points of view with people that were trying to make make sure that young people didn't experience harm, and then you move a little bit in later into the idea or the understanding of adaptive leadership. 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:12.039 I'm assuming that's Heifetz and Linsky work. 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:20.199 But how have those ingredients in your life, in your professional life, how have they developed and integrated over time? 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.920 Have you been able to expand this work, this idea? 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:32.280 Because I'm interested in where, having started from that, where it's taken you, those ideas, because they were very early ideas. 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:39.000 There might be a bit more mainstream now, perhaps, but at that time they certainly didn't didn't seem to be huge. 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:39.480 Yeah. 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:40.280 Yeah. 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:42.679 I mean, I I I think you're right, they weren't. 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.239 And I would say in many places they're still not. 00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:58.920 I mean, we don't need to look too far, and we, you know, was we still have very a real pull to the heroic idea of leadership and experts and people in positions of authority solving problems. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.480 And it's so deeply ingrained. 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:15.639 And yeah, I look, I guess I I was really fortunate that, you know, I did this program, Sydney Leadership, and then it just it woke something up, I think, or it it gave me a language and understanding. 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:37.320 But I soon after that, I left the organization Streetwise, I was with, and then was offered a job with the program, with Sydney Leadership Program, and had to go through all the stuff about imposter syndrome that how can I work with other people who were leaders, that you were incredibly intimidating across corporate government, not for profit. 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:41.159 And I again I was 32, 33 at the time. 00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:49.719 But at the time we had a CEO, uh, it was with the Benevolent Society at the time that the organization sat. 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.679 So it was a bit of a, we were a wee bit of an anomaly. 00:37:52.840 --> 00:38:01.559 You know, we were a kind of leadership program within a um New South Wales oldest charity who did traditional service delivery. 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:09.880 But you know, the common thread there was about trying to create a more equitable, inclusive, and just world, which resonated strongly. 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:20.360 And we were

given a great incubator, if we would like, to explore okay, what was the leadership we were developing, and what did we need to do as people? 00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:26.599 Now I would say leadership development practitioners to support other people to do it. 00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:35.800 And so for eight years, we were able to invest in both our own development as well as the development of the different groups we worked with. 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:43.559 And so we were able to, you know, when came across adaptive leadership in case in point, I was like, this feels really familiar. 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:53.559 In Scotland, I'd been introduced to process work, which, you know, is also considered to be a wee bit out there, which is again very systemic. 00:38:53.639 --> 00:39:01.960 It's about seeing ways of sensing the system and feeling into that, but bringing in everything, human, non-human, etc. 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:14.039 And so I went to this thing called world work, which is where basically everyone comes from all over the world, and you work on the systemic issues of the day, from gender, race, whatever it is. 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:21.880 The one I went to was in London, and so a lot of it was working with the dynamics there, but how they were playing out, say in Australia or in other contexts. 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:23.719 And it scared the life out of me. 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.679 It was so experiential in the midst of it. 00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:30.039 But again, there was, I'm a bit of a moth to the flame with that. 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:38.679 There was something really edgy, but powerful, incredibly powerful, because it was a visceral, you know, it wasn't just an intellectual exercise. 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:44.360 It was like using all the wisdom we had, the kind of what was happening in our bodies and our emotions. 00:39:44.679 --> 00:40:02.119 So I looked at how could we bring that into the work that we were doing in Sydney leadership at the time, and that took me and got me in contact with people who did like deep democracy in South Africa, which had been used post apartheid, you know, the work of Myrna Lewis and others. 00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:07.480 Again, processes to bring people together who've got different views and make decisions. 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.400 And just lots of people like that who we were able to bring in. 00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:39.800 Julie Diamond, who does amazing innovative work on power intelligence, which was all things that I'd been sensing were there, but going, how do we bring attention and awareness to what is at play coming together to try and address something and not just exclude parts of it because they don't fit within the intellectual framework we're using, but to actually acknowledge those feelings there, there's other things going on which all have validity. 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:48.920 To me, these were all tools and different methods and ways to bring attention to what was going

on under the surface and above the surface. 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:53.159 And you've mentioned the Benevolent Society and the work that you were doing there. 00:40:53.480 --> 00:41:03.000 Have you had opportunities, I'm assuming you have, to explore and experiment with these ideas and these practices, these wisdoms in other contexts? 00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:11.480 And what have you noticed and how amenable are certain contexts in contrast to other contexts to this type of work? 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:12.119 Yeah. 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:26.920 So what happened from there was we developed within Benevolent Society, we developed the program out to become this thing called Social Leadership Australia, where we took it out from a program and we worked with people in the corporate sector, we worked with people in government, a whole range. 00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:32.280 Did a lot of work with First Nations leaders, which is where the book Last Conversations came about. 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:49.400 We convened emerging leaders and were in a three-year process with them as non-Indigenous facilitators, working with a group of First Nations leaders and all the dynamics that played out, we wrote about in that book because we saw them happening in other contexts we were in. 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:52.679 So, yes, we worked with this in multiple contexts. 00:41:52.760 --> 00:42:05.079 And I think what I started to see was lots of people individually going through these processes would come out talking about transformation, about doing things differently, about seeing the world differently. 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:10.599 And, you know, that was a very fulfilling thing to be involved in and really seeing the impact they could make. 00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:24.039 But what I also observed was when they went back into systems and tried to do this as a single change agent or leader, they came up against the resistance of this system, obviously, and struggled to apply a lot of it. 00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:35.159 And I got a wee bit disillusioned and thought, are we just setting people up to fail, that they come out of programs, but the conditions often are not in place for them to apply their learning. 00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:46.039 And so that took me on another phase, which was where I ended up setting up an entity called Collaboration for Impact with Kerry Graham, my co-founder at the time. 00:42:46.199 --> 00:43:01.639 And that, you know, we saw a need for this thing where people could learn how do you apply and work with, say, an intact system who's working on a social issue or in a place, a regional place or a suburb who want to address issues locally. 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.119 And you bring people from different sectors together. 00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:09.079 So people were seeking a place to learn into how do we do this and how do you support them? 00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:13.159 So we we went shopping, we went to lots of people going, this is a need. 00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:14.119 Will you do it? 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:17.960 We'll support you, but we didn't want to set up another organization. 00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:22.679 Fast forward, that was 14 years ago, that became collaboration for impact. 00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:35.880 So I was with them for 10 years, and that was working in and just experimenting with what does it take to really shift not just people in those systems, but shift the issues. 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:48.519 So working on things like unemployment or outcomes for children or whatever those issues were to go, what's the type of way of working or leadership we need that can really change indicators? 00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:50.760 And you know, this is long-term work. 00:43:51.000 --> 00:44:02.519 We were with communities for over seven, eight years, walking alongside them, trying, you know, lots of different things, building capacities and conditions for different ways of working to emerge. 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:08.360 So, yes, I think what I found was the original frame of adaptive leadership and others got you so far. 00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:11.320 And then it's like, okay, what else is needed? 00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:15.559 And learning very much with the communities that I was working with. 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:19.000 And so that became a national not-for-profit. 00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:32.039 And I, you know, started to see similar things, which was okay, some things are sticking, some things people are able to do, and really seeing where there was some system shifts, but you know, systems also snap back. 00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:32.519 Yes. 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:47.880 And then I, you know, the conditions changing that we've started seeing the last five years, particularly, but the last decade, into what is now being called increasingly poly crisis, where we're not just navigating, say, working on an unemployment or homelessness. 00:44:48.039 --> 00:44:50.599 It's interconnected with so many other things. 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:52.840 Living in the northern rivers, homelessness. 00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:59.480 Homelessness took on a whole new meaning when we had floods in 2022, you know, suddenly became an emergency. 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:17.000 So that led me to the questions I'm now looking at, which are okay, what's needed in where we are now, which is multiple overlapping challenges, a lot of overwhelm that people are like going, you know, this is just too chaotic, too unpredictable. 00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.039 How can we keep doing what we've always done? 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:30.760 So that also combined with a bit of frustration that for 10 years, well, 20 years, I was doing the work and I didn't document, we didn't capture anything because we were doing it. 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:37.159 So a lot of the progress we saw didn't get captured and was able to be shared with others. 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.480 So I really wanted to bridge that gap. 00:45:39.639 -->

00:45:50.039 And I think also a frustration that many of the things that we do do in leadership development, myself included, I would see people couldn't apply because the conditions weren't there. 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:53.480 And I'm going, can we not just keep doing what we've always done? 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:56.599 We need we need to adapt, we need to shift what we're doing. 00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:02.039 So that's led me to my kind of new phase, which is I'm both still doing the work. 00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:08.199 I'm supporting a number of systemic initiatives who are working on big complex challenges. 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:27.960 But I'm also doing a PhD to try and really articulate what are the conditions that need to be in place for systemic leadership ways of working to emerge, then particularly now we're in polycrisis, because it's kind of only going to get more complex, it looks like. 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:30.519 I don't think things are gonna die down too. 00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:32.519 No, I'm gonna simplify for sure. 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:33.320 No. 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:42.280 So, you know, if I can leave something which helps people learn from many of the things I didn't get right, or, you know, or what we're now seeing. 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:58.119 And I'm drawing on many people's wisdoms to say, look, these are things which could be helpful as uh foundations, as anchors, things that we can help us navigate through what is then a very emergent dynamic process, because there isn't a roadmap. 00:46:58.519 --> 00:46:58.679 Yeah. 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.840 We may have is you know, muscles we can develop that help us navigate this type of complexity. 00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:07.079 So that's what I'm intending to do. 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.679 Just out of curiosity, you you've mentioned a lot of great things. 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:21.079 And one of the things that you mentioned is a challenge is that you know, when people go back into their real day-to-day living or world, it it's harder. 00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:27.159 What have you found is the most effective way for them to kind of break through that? 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:36.360 Have you have you found anything that seems to be working as you've learned from you know a previous experience and and what you're studying now? 00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.880 Is there anything that seems to kind of hit the mark a little better? 00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:47.000 The most consistent thing is being learning that isn't detached or removed from the work people are doing. 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:51.559 So, you know, standalone leadership programs can have their place. 00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:58.360 But I think particularly for these types of challenges, people being able to learn and apply as they do. 00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:04.039 So kind of an action learning approach where they're being supported to learn around it. 00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:23.559 So, you know, if using kind of the highfoot stuff, the balcony dance floor metaphor, that you're stepping out to try and make sense of what's going on and having collective wisdom around, okay, what could be useful here and bringing in movie practices that then people are applying in real time. 00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:37.880 I think without that environment where that is created and held, it's really hard to have permission to test and try because people say, Yeah, yeah, we want this type of transformation, then you do we'll go, oh, but not quite like that. 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:41.880 We don't want to be disruptive so fast. 00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:43.000 Yeah. 00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:47.000 So, you know, there's there's so many layers to this, obviously. 00:48:47.079 --> 00:49:04.599 But I think having people in positions of authority who are not just authorizing, but also being involved in requires that acknowledgement about they are in relation with these systems and that they don't have all the answers and we've got to try something else. 00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.079 But that willingness to go on that process. 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:07.559 Yeah. 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:24.519 To go, let's test and try as we go, let's create an environment or a holding environment, a container to do this so that we can still keep doing business as usual in some parts, but we're not going to shift anything unless we've got a space where we can test and try as we go. 00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.639 But I think the important thing is applying the learnings quickly while they're once that people can go. 00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:31.960 Well, how do I take that from the theoretical? 00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:34.840 Yeah, make it real, make it practical, make it immediate. 00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:43.719 It's not about implementation, it's really about grafting into existing ways of working and being able to change that from the inside, I think. 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah, happened the dialogue that says you're having uh these challenges today. 00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:49.960 This is real. 00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:51.960 So how would we work through those things? 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:55.800 What are the some of the options you have? 00:49:55.880 --> 00:50:03.960 And and it's it's actually something that they can work in their mind and it makes sense instead of trying to be all theoretical. 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:06.920 Yeah, it gives them something that they can grab on to, right? 00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:16.599 Interestedly, is in the work that you're currently doing through your PhD, there's a few things that I just want to try and bring together. 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.480 So there's this notion of polycrisis that you've highlighted. 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:20.039 Yes. 00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:23.239 There's the idea that how do we create conditions or the question? 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:28.920 How do we create conditions that will allow people to navigate this landscape? 00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:29.400

Yeah. 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:30.840 Big landscape. 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:31.400 Yeah. 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:33.800 What are some of your working hypotheses? 00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:35.960 What are you going to try and test out? 00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:37.000 What are you looking forward? 00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:38.280 What are you exploring at the moment? 00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:39.719 We get an early view of this. 00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:40.119 Yeah. 00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:44.039 Maybe a wee bit embryonic or too early to say. 00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:51.000 Um that's a big question, Paul. 00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:53.639 And I don't have a glass of wine with me at the moment. 00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:58.280 But we'll come back in a couple of years and and just see how you went with that working hypothesis. 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:00.039 But now at least I'll talk about it. 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:02.039 Yeah, there's degrees of it. 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:04.599 To me, there's okay, I'll give it a track. 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.719 There's the systemic way of being, I would say. 00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:10.199 I'm trying to find language for this at the moment. 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:10.920 Yeah, good. 00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:27.880 But whatever, however, you work with any of the systems, thinking tools or theories or whatever, that you can approach that in a way which will keep reinforcing the mechanistic, linear, kind of predictive approaches which have got us into many of these challenges in the first place. 00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:35.559 That we see, you know, we'll pick up a frame and we'll apply it in a very technical way, as if it's a recipe, and then wonder why things aren't shifting. 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:45.159 And I see it time and time again that when collective impact came out that we used in CFI, people applied it, going, oh, if you just do X, Y, and Z. 00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:54.840 It's something about the spirit and the, and you know, even that language, this language isn't right, because you use that language and it takes people off in different places. 00:51:55.079 --> 00:52:08.119 But it's something about a way of thinking, being, seeing the world that allows you to then see that we're in relationship all the time with the systems that we're engaging with and that we're interacting with. 00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:12.039 And so to constantly be testing our assumptions. 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:23.480 There's there's a whole peak load of things within that, things like attending to the nervous system of ourselves and of the systems we're working in, that we know a lot more about that now. 00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:43.960 That we need to be a bit more, you know, there's what language around trauma-informed, but that we're not just shifting systems, we're actually trying to address some of the harms or the we're trying to look at how do we not keep perpetuating some of the marginalization that happens as we keep moving ahead. 00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:58.440 You know, it's drawing on things like care, compassion, but it's also a way of working where we've got reflexivity that we're able to constantly reflect on what we're doing and look at it through multiple lenses like the kaleidoscope and test what we're doing. 00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:00.760 So to me, they're in a big bag. 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:10.599 There's a whole heap of other stuff in there that I would see belong to what we're like, a systemic way of being that is a muscle that people can learn. 00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:33.480 So, practitioners, wherever you are, academics in whatever sphere in business and government, I think if we just built that capability as early as possible with people, that it shifts how we see the world from seeing it as a problem that needs to be solved or cracked to going, we are in relationship, we are never neutral, we're not detached. 00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:37.320 What we do influences and shapes everything around us. 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:39.719 So, how do we work with that agency? 00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:43.880 Even when we feel our most powerless, we are influencing it. 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:47.480 You know, just being in the room, your presence is influencing. 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:55.800 So, so much of the work I do is having different ways of helping people really connect with and see the agency they have to act. 00:53:55.960 --> 00:54:05.159 So when we complain about the world we're in, to see ourselves as part of it and culpable and responsible for that and for each other. 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:12.519 So to me, it's kind of coming back some very core things about I think we've lost sight of. 00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:22.440 And many people, a lot of the framing around polychrisis is that we it's a crisis of us seeing ourselves in relationship to different elements of the world. 00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:25.159 Um, that's why we're in polychrisis. 00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:26.519 There's a breakdown in that. 00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:28.840 And we don't want things to continue like that. 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:33.159 We actually want to rebuild that relationality and connectivity. 00:54:33.320 --> 00:54:47.800 And the work I do through things like Lost Conversations, Deep Collaboration, working with First Nations and non-Indigenous Australians and other Australians, that that's an intrinsic way of being and living for many First Nations cultures. 00:54:47.960 --> 00:55:04.840 So, and in other cultures in the global south, it's just we've kind of there's a kind of colonialist way of thinking of acquiring and producing and that out seeing outcomes in ways which only look at outcomes of one part of the system and not the whole. 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:05.159 Yeah. 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:10.599 So that's a long-winded way of saying that's by working hypotheses, but it was perfect. 00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:12.679 It drew to me another question though. 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:15.079 You're not gonna get away that

easy. 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:27.559 I was just gonna ask, Liz, that you talk about the fact that we've we've either lost or maybe we never had it, our ability to be in the world systemically. 00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:34.360 Would it be accurate in saying or defining your work as restorative in some way, shape, or form? 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:36.119 Um, it could be. 00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:43.400 I think there's a lot in the regenerative, there's a lot emerging about, you know, regenerative leadership. 00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:53.559 I think that we can't think about leadership purely as a a kind of, if you like, output product in a productive cultural way. 00:55:53.719 --> 00:56:13.079 That leadership by its definition, and for me it always has been, is about how do we make things better, how do we create a world that's better than we found it, you know, and that's now increasingly called stewardship, it's been called many other things, that leadership isn't just about getting the about optimization. 00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:18.039 I think it it is that idea about ensuring that systems are thriving. 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:24.679 And so if that is about restoration, I don't know that we've not been in these times before. 00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:27.000 These are new, we're navigating them. 00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:29.559 So I don't know what's been called for. 00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:41.800 What I'm exploring, if you like, is what from our current wisdoms and ways of doing things are we not actually, have we not been looking at that are there and that are working in well in different places. 00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:52.360 So if you like, it's shining a bit of practices or knowledges which are already there, they're latent, and maybe the conditions haven't been in the place which have allowed them to emerge. 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.639 My lens is to what's needed for I've got nieces and nephews. 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:10.039 I'd love them to be able to have access to ways of doing things and learning and being that help them navigate this world because it's going to be them that are going to have to deal with it, not me. 00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:12.440 I'll have shuffled off by then. 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:23.320 So, you know, if they have access early on to some of these ways of working and practice that can help them make sense of it, then for me, that will be wonderful. 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:25.960 I mean, but they'll still have to navigate their own path. 00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:42.679 So I think, as always, you know, drawing on adaptive leadership, there will be some things that we're doing now which we need to develop and nurture and conserve that we don't want to lose, that we've got to really hold on to and will get us into the next horizon. 00:57:42.840 --> 00:58:00.679 But there'll be other things that will end and we'll have to stop doing, and that depending where you sit in relation to what's happening in the world at the moment, there's a stark reality that the way of life we've enjoyed, many of us have enjoyed, not everybody, are not sustainable and won't continue. 00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:04.199 So, how do you help people lean into that to go? 00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:05.880 This could be an opportunity. 00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:07.480 There will be loss involved, though. 00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:09.159 And there's pain, there's grief in that. 00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:10.840 We've got to let go of some things. 00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:27.159 But it could be an opportunity to address some of the harms that have happened and make sure that we are taking more people, more people are included in this, in whatever other versions we're creating, rather than just people who we think and look the same as we do. 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:47.639 On that note, there's if people, leaders out there, people in positions of authority or influence, if they wanted to delve deeper in what you're saying, in understanding what it might mean to live more systemically or adaptively, if they were the ones to create certain conditions, how would they contact you? 00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:49.000 That's a great question. 00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:50.920 There's many ways to contact me. 00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:55.239 LinkedIn is the kind of vehicle of choice often, isn't it? 00:58:55.400 --> 00:59:01.800 I'm situated within the School of Cybernetics at ANU, is where I'm doing my PhD. 00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:08.679 But I also have my own thing called the adaptive practice, which people can find online and connect with me that way. 00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:19.639 But, you know, really open to exploring with anyone who's asking similar questions and wondering how do we make sense of this and lean into what we're in. 00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:24.920 And, you know, it's easy to look away and watch Netflix and I do that myself. 00:59:25.239 --> 00:59:34.039 And also, you know, there's responsibility, accountability for using the agency we've got, even if it's just one or two things we do differently. 00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:37.719 How do we do that to lean into what we're in at the moment? 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:48.280 And belief that we've, you know, to go full circle to where I started is to believe that we've got the wisdom to address this, that human beings have the capacity, you know. 00:59:48.519 --> 00:59:52.280 We show that at the worst times often, that we come together and we care. 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:54.760 And I think we're gonna need that in space. 00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:58.440 Thank you so much, Liz. 00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:01.079 Very good chat, very thought-provoking. 01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:03.239 Um, my mind is racing at the moment. 01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:05.159 But I really appreciate your time. 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:09.800 Thank you for sharing uh your work, even in its embryonic stage. 01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:13.079 Really keen to see how that unfolds and develops. 01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:14.679 So hopefully we'll get you back. 01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:15.960 Yeah, some soon. 01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:17.079 Oh, for sure. 01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:21.800 We'd love to, and hopefully in person, sharing some of that nice wine with you. 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:23.239 We can come to you, don't you? 01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:24.039 We're not coming here. 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:24.760 We'll come to you. 01:00:24.840 --> 01:00:27.639 Yeah, or come up here, come smell and bimmy. 01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:28.039 Yeah. 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:29.400 Yeah, we're good at that, right? 01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:31.000 Any time. 01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:32.360 Thank you. 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:35.000 We'll see you soon. 01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:36.280 We'll talk to you soon. 01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:38.760 And until that moment, Slunch. 01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:41.400 Slunge, all the best. 01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:44.360 That's it for our show today. 01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:51.400 If you like what you heard, if you liked our conversation, if you want to hear more, please rate us, review us, subscribe. 01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.920 Tell your friends, your family, your enemies, everyone you know. 01:00:55.079 --> 01:01:02.280 As always, we'd like to hear your feedback about any particular leadership topic you'd like to hear about or want us to explore. 01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:07.400 Please let us know by reaching out to us at askus at leadership tocanton.com. 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:11.719 That's ASKUS at leadership tocanton.com. 01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:17.159 You can also leave your comments and suggestions at our website at leadership tocanton.com. 01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:20.360 We really appreciate your time and comments. 01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:23.320 Thanks for listening and come back next time.