Steven Nicholas, Managing Principal & Head of Asset Management, Noble Investment Group, interviewed by David Kong의 전체 녹취록

to ideas. 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:32.406 Thank you for sharing that. 00:04:32.406 --> 00:04:32.416 Yeah. 00:04:32.473 --> 00:04:35.485 I, I remember a lot of people used the word position power back then. 00:04:35.485 --> 00:04:39.413 I learned it early on and said that I don't know that's gonna get you a long way. 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:40.666 It was the way it was back then. 00:04:40.716 --> 00:04:41.350 Precisely. 00:04:41.355 --> 00:04:46.593 You joined Noble in 1997, and Noble was only three years old. 00:04:47.069 --> 00:04:54.809 What gave you the confidence to join such a young company, and what did helping to build that organization teach you about yourself? 00:04:55.572 --> 00:04:55.865 Sure. 00:04:55.894 --> 00:04:57.278 That's a, that's a great story. 00:04:57.278 --> 00:04:59.514 You know, I'm very proud of Noble Investment Group. 00:04:59.521 --> 00:05:03.442 It's accomplished so much stuff over the, the many years I've, I've been with Noble. 00:05:03.711 --> 00:05:06.564 You know, a credit to my boss and partner, Mitt Shah. 00:05:06.567 --> 00:05:09.375 I've been with him for coming on 30 years now. 00:05:09.706 --> 00:05:14.363 But when I met him 30 years ago, you know, I certainly didn't know what Noble was gonna be. 00:05:14.363 --> 00:05:19.988 It was a small family-run operation, and I, I, I vividly remember how it happened. 00:05:19.990 --> 00:05:21.482 It's one of my favorite stories. 00:05:21.793 --> 00:05:24.848 I, um, I was with Promise, and I really enjoyed Promise. 00:05:24.848 --> 00:05:29.634 I worked for Rick Schultz, another person who did great things by me and, you know, was another mentor of mine. 00:05:30.204 --> 00:05:34.372 But they were talking about moving me to the West Coast, and at the time I, I really... 00:05:34.374 --> 00:05:36.125 I'm recently out of New York City. 00:05:36.125 --> 00:05:37.730 I loved the East Coast. 00:05:38.163 --> 00:05:44.312 I, I moved down to Atlanta, what I thought was gonna be for just a few years, and wasn't sure what I wanted to do next. 00:05:44.334 --> 00:05:49.879 And all of a sudden they're saying,"Hey, maybe we're gonna move you to California." And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:55.942 I was in a pseudo serious relationship with a, a girl back then, and she didn't wanna move to the West Coast either. 00:05:56.180 --> 00:06:10.365 So we're like,"What do, what do we do?" So I, I actually remember sitting watching football on a Sunday in my, uh, in my apartment and reading the want ads, and I remember reading a want ad for a regional manager for some company called Noble Investment Group. 00:06:10.365 --> 00:06:25.113 So I sent one resume out via fax to Noble Investment Group, and two days later I got a call from Mitt or someone in Mitt's office saying, you know,"Come in and talk to us." And I went over and I still wasn't really sure what I was doing there. 00:06:25.637 --> 00:06:27.550 Uh, wasn't sure it was the right thing to do. 00:06:27.853 --> 00:06:30.238 It was, you know, obviously an Indian-owned company. 00:06:30.271 --> 00:06:33.742 Back in those days, there was a little bit of a stigma to Indian-owned companies. 00:06:34.170 --> 00:06:41.240 And, um, I actually remember sitting in a reception hall and I, and, uh, uh, and the recep- I had said to the receptionist,"I'm meeting with Mitt. 00:06:41.603 --> 00:06:47.432 Any suggestions to talk to him?" And, and she said,"Just be excitable." And I was sitting there saying,"Okay, I'm... 00:06:47.466 --> 00:06:48.605 That's the last thing I'm gonna be. 00:06:48.605 --> 00:07:02.661 I, I'm gonna be, like, really serious and, you know, formal and everything." And she said,"Be excitable." And I said,"Well, I'm pretty excitable." So I thought to myself,"Okay." And I talked to Mitt for about an hour and a half, and we really, he lo- we really hit it off. 00:07:02.675 --> 00:07:07.052 He loved what he did more than I loved what I did, and I loved what I did. 00:07:07.422 --> 00:07:14.730 So I said,"There's gotta be some sort of a match here." And, um, I took a chance and I joined a small company with seven hotels. 00:07:14.762 --> 00:07:21.377 I left Promise really with the goal of staying in Atlanta and, you know, trying to, to build something. 00:07:21.711 --> 00:07:30.714 20 years into it, or 10 years into it, a lot of my old colleagues, many of my old people that I w- that I worked for at Promise came to work for me at Noble years later. 00:07:31.122 --> 00:07:33.230 And, um, always asked me,"How did you know? 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:34.139 How were you so smart? 00:07:34.141 --> 00:07:40.264 How did you pick up on what Noble was?" And the, the, the honest truth is I just felt there was something there. 00:07:40.264 --> 00:07:41.951 I felt that Mitt and I hit it off. 00:07:41.951 --> 00:07:43.141 I felt that he had a vision. 00:07:43.466 --> 00:07:46.966 And as I said, he loved what he did, and I, uh, you know, I'm very fortunate. 00:07:46.968 --> 00:07:52.002 I've always loved what I did, and, um, good thing, good things happened and we've been able to grow the organization. 00:07:52.884 --> 00:07:54.507 That's such a great story. 00:07:54.533 --> 00:07:56.071 Mitt is so well respected. 00:07:56.071 --> 00:08:00.327 I'm so glad that he took you in and you helped build that company. 00:08:00.391 --> 00:08:02.250 It is a remarkable company. 00:08:02.408 --> 00:08:10.562 He's always been a visionary and, you know, I've over the years ran his operations, now the asset management, and, you know, me and my partners, you know, lucky to have him. 00:08:10.564 --> 00:08:12.487 And, you know, his job is to create the vision. 00:08:12.488 --> 00:08:14.463 Our job is to make the vision a reality. 00:08:15.869 --> 00:08:16.836 That's wonderful. 00:08:17.708 --> 00:08:20.619 Now, you've been with Noble for almost 30 years. 00:08:20.648 --> 00:08:27.978 What keep you challenged and growing, and how did you evolve yourself over the last 29, 30 years?

00:08:28.603 --> 00:08:31.142 When I started, it was just a, a family-owned company. 00:08:31.144 --> 00:08:38.219 Mitt and his dad were out, build a hotel, raise money, go to family and friends and acquaintances, and do a hotel. 00:08:38.673 --> 00:08:40.655 Do some financing, go to the next hotel. 00:08:40.655 --> 00:08:42.573 You know, there's a lot of blocking and tackling. 00:08:42.956 --> 00:08:46.674 Obviously, you have to run great hotels to build credibility back then. 00:08:47.618 --> 00:08:48.985 But that's not who we are now. 00:08:48.986 --> 00:08:51.274 We've gone through many evolutions of that. 00:08:51.287 --> 00:08:56.825 We've had different partners, different relationships, different capital partners, different capital structures. 00:08:57.182 --> 00:08:59.058 We used to have our own management company. 00:08:59.359 --> 00:08:59.690 We don't... 00:08:59.734 --> 00:09:03.082 We sold our management company, you know, more than a decade ago. 00:09:03.092 --> 00:09:05.312 We now work with a number of different companies. 00:09:05.317 --> 00:09:09.000 We now have discretionary private equity funds with investors. 00:09:09.476 --> 00:09:20.033 So you know, realistically, the company has drastically changed almost every five years since I've been with the organization, and it's afforded me a number of opportunities to grow my skills. 00:09:20.327 --> 00:09:20.785 I've had... 00:09:20.894 --> 00:09:22.716 At one time, I ran the management company. 00:09:22.716 --> 00:09:26.035 We had over 3,000 employees across the country. 00:09:26.221 --> 00:09:29.578 I said then we went to being a, a non-management company. 00:09:29.578 --> 00:09:39.725 We're just an asset management company, so I had to evolve my skills into asset management, doing underwriting with my partners on our investment team and our capital markets team, who are tremendous professionals. 00:09:40.222 --> 00:09:42.846 So there's been a lot of changes in the organization. 00:09:43.061 --> 00:09:50.971 I've had the opportunity to been on a number of advisory boards, you know, working with our brand partners, sit on a number of panels with our lenders and our capital partners. 00:09:51.306 --> 00:09:55.480 And then obviously, once we became an asset management group and we engaged in... 00:09:55.745 --> 00:10:04.054 You know, right now we have 13 different management companies, and I've got a lot of, you know, great partners in those and many friends who we're always brainstorming on the industry. 00:10:04.054 --> 00:10:05.394 What's going on with the industry? 00:10:05.547 --> 00:10:06.650 How can we be better? 00:10:06.650 --> 00:10:07.687 How do we use data? 00:10:07.702 --> 00:10:08.994 How do we use technology? 00:10:08.994 --> 00:10:09.806 Now AI. 00:10:10.155 --> 00:10:12.097 You know, h- oh, w- wages are going up. 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:13.121 Inflation's going up. 00:10:13.130 --> 00:10:16.077 The hotel will never ma- and hotel industry will never make money again. 00:10:16.077 --> 00:10:17.619 Well, we have to figure that out. 00:10:17.626 --> 00:10:19.914 We've got to figure out, okay, how are we gonna grow revenue? 00:10:19.921 --> 00:10:21.407 How are we gonna minimize expenses? 00:10:21.407 --> 00:10:23.461 So there's always a challenge to, to... 00:10:23.495 --> 00:10:31.231 There's always a challenge to take on, so and there's always an evolution of Noble that been very fortunate to allow me the opportunity to grow my skills. 00:10:33.443 --> 00:10:36.926 That's a wonderful experience that you've had with Noble. 00:10:38.168 --> 00:10:46.378 You've worn many different hats, and you know how difficult it is to sometimes align interests of the brand's owners and operators. 00:10:47.049 --> 00:10:50.489 We don't always have the same goal in these three stakeholders. 00:10:50.822 --> 00:10:51.149 Yeah. 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:54.985 And it's difficult to find common ground and build trust at times. 00:10:55.345 --> 00:10:56.245 How do you do it? 00:10:58.139 --> 00:10:58.500 Yeah. 00:10:58.582 --> 00:11:00.359 You said it, you said it exactly right. 00:11:00.388 --> 00:11:01.533 We don't have the same goals. 00:11:01.533 --> 00:11:03.216 We don't all make money the same way. 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:05.734 We don't grow our organizations the same way. 00:11:06.201 --> 00:11:10.270 We've had a unique opportunity, Noble, as we were a management company for many, many years. 00:11:10.490 --> 00:11:14.379 We managed our own hotels, but we also third party managed for others. 00:11:14.857 --> 00:11:23.772 And while, you know, I like to think that we managed them just as, just as much as we managed our own, we operated with integrity and trust and transparency. 00:11:24.236 --> 00:11:30.182 You certainly can see the difference when you're on the asset management side and you see what a lot of organizations do. 00:11:30.707 --> 00:11:33.842 You know, you have to set yourself up for success. 00:11:33.846 --> 00:11:38.234 And to be honest, your contracts that you get with everybody, you have to know what you're doing getting into. 00:11:38.236 --> 00:11:42.370 You have to align yourself with the right people and the right organizations. 00:11:42.793 --> 00:11:46.485 But you have to be able to set up with the right partners. 00:11:46.495 --> 00:11:56.480 If you don't do that and you get people who want to take advantage of a, a wrong word or a wrong phrase in a contract, you really can get yourself in a bad state. 00:11:56.563 --> 00:11:58.488 And I see a lot of companies that do that. 00:11:58.953 --> 00:12:02.313 You know, the fortunate thing for Noble is we continue to grow. 00:12:02.356 --> 00:12:04.054 We continue to have opportunity. 00:12:04.077 --> 00:12:08.125 We continue to be sought after by brands and management companies. 00:12:08.481 --> 00:12:17.879 So we do get a situation where we do Create alignment as best possible, but then on our end, we wanna make sure we're looked on as a good partner as well.

00:12:17.883 --> 00:12:19.398 We wanna do what we say we wanna do. 00:12:19.418 --> 00:12:20.931 Do we do what we say we do? 00:12:21.202 --> 00:12:31.960 We wanna be great representations of our brands to our brand partners, and we wanna be active participants with the brands to say what we see is right and what we see is wrong. 00:12:32.330 --> 00:12:38.441 And when we see something that's not right, we wanna act appropriately and work with the brands to make it different. 00:12:38.761 --> 00:12:49.066 Sometimes it's just disagreeing with the brand standards and say,"Hey, we're gonna do it this way, but this is why, and allow us to test it and show you the result," and get the trust from them to allow us to do it. 00:12:49.066 --> 00:12:50.980 And then when there's a disagreement, you deal with it. 00:12:50.980 --> 00:13:05.619 And fortunately, when you have people on both sides who know you're working towards at least the right general goal, you can get around to fill in the specifics when you get into a, an issue about a line item or a specific. 00:13:05.619 --> 00:13:11.355 But it's all about dealing with the right people and setting right expectations going into an, a relationship. 00:13:11.408 --> 00:13:12.797 Just like everything else, I believe. 00:13:14.081 --> 00:13:15.698 I don't know if I answered your question there, Dave. 00:13:15.701 --> 00:13:17.039 That's great advice. 00:13:17.447 --> 00:13:28.658 You talk about finding trustworthy partners, being trustworthy yourself, and being able to have open, honest conversations where you can find common ground and actually resolve differences. 00:13:28.678 --> 00:13:29.952 That's wonderful advice. 00:13:31.250 --> 00:13:35.966 Now, sometimes you have a difficult asset that's underperforming. 00:13:36.541 --> 00:13:43.008 How do you tell whether it's a leadership challenge or whether it's the market condition that's causing that? 00:13:43.389 --> 00:13:46.580 And how do you look beyond just financial results? 00:13:47.336 --> 00:13:47.769 Sure. 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:48.831 That's a great question. 00:13:48.874 --> 00:14:00.799 When we sit with any one of our management companies and we find an opportunity, we ask them to tell us what they think, what they think they can do in a particular hotel location, building, brand. 00:14:01.389 --> 00:14:11.875 And they share what they think, we share what we think, and we create, perform an underwriting scenario, and we say,"This is where we are." And we try to break it down to the most common denominator. 00:14:12.096 --> 00:14:13.951 What do we think the market is gonna do? 00:14:13.961 --> 00:14:15.633 How is the comp set gonna perform? 00:14:15.634 --> 00:14:17.186 What segments are gonna do well? 00:14:17.197 --> 00:14:19.298 How are we gonna penetrate those segments? 00:14:19.298 --> 00:14:26.408 And really break it down to how we're gonna perform, not just say we're gonna run 75% occupancy at$100. 00:14:26.884 --> 00:14:28.479 Same on the expense line item. 00:14:28.479 --> 00:14:33.056 We break it down to the different departments and the different line items and areas like that. 00:14:33.466 --> 00:14:41.778 And when you break it down to those lowest common denominators, when things go bad, you can break it down to was it a market or was it a performance? 00:14:41.788 --> 00:14:48.368 So if you see that- you know, in a particular market, you know, let's say last year there was lots of government shutdowns. 00:14:48.371 --> 00:14:53.956 If, you know, the government business just shuts down and that business is not there, you know what your... 00:14:53.995 --> 00:14:56.668 You know that's a market situation. 00:14:56.994 --> 00:15:14.427 But if you're having all the hotels in your comp set do better than you, you're all of a sudden,"Okay, what are they doing that we're not doing and why?" So it's really setting goals around what's controllable and what's uncontrollable and creating alignment upfront that you all believe what that's gonna do. 00:15:14.427 --> 00:15:18.073 So then when you're evaluating the data, you're looking at it in exactly the same way. 00:15:18.615 --> 00:15:23.759 Market share is a great measuring tool of, of results, especially around a revenue effort. 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.110 It's not the only one, but it is a good starting point. 00:15:26.422 --> 00:15:28.211 But then you continue to break it down. 00:15:28.772 --> 00:15:36.057 You know, sometimes a management company may have all the right intentions, but they hire a wrong person or a wrong group of people. 00:15:36.058 --> 00:15:41.413 The person can't build a team, and that is what it is, and you gotta deal with it and move on. 00:15:41.833 --> 00:15:47.831 But you know, there's a lot of information that you can see to really decide is it an execution or is it not? 00:15:49.235 --> 00:15:49.557 True. 00:15:50.304 --> 00:15:51.285 Thanks for sharing that. 00:15:52.259 --> 00:16:09.244 You've been on the operating side, now you're a asset manager, and sometimes you think about short-term results because you've got investors, and sometimes you have to think about long-term investments for your guests and for your associates. 00:16:09.875 --> 00:16:15.576 And that's always a balance, but not everyone is in agreement sometimes with the decisions. 00:16:15.998 --> 00:16:18.765 How do you handle those difficult conversations? 00:16:19.539 --> 00:16:19.947 Sure. 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:21.548 That's a great question. 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.356 We have a couple different ways of looking at things. 00:16:24.801 --> 00:16:27.364 From our standpoint, we're a private equity company. 00:16:27.364 --> 00:16:28.644 We buy hotels. 00:16:28.865 --> 00:16:32.643 We want to be great partners with our brands, but we do have an exit in mind. 00:16:32.643 --> 00:16:35.413 We're not 30-year holders of different brands. 00:16:35.880 --> 00:16:41.509 So we usually buy a hotel with an idea of keeping it for, to go 5 to 7

to 10 years. 00:16:41.849 --> 00:16:45.913 We do all our work upfront to make it a great representation of the brand. 00:16:45.931 --> 00:16:49.623 We expect our managers to maintain it that way over time. 00:16:50.155 --> 00:16:56.437 And then we would usually sell it into an- the next renovation or some timing around that. 00:16:56.873 --> 00:17:02.528 So we expect our hotels to be great representations of brand, give great service. 00:17:02.874 --> 00:17:06.958 There is a balance between w- what has diminishing returns. 00:17:07.228 --> 00:17:11.104 You know, we don't serve lobster on our breakfast buffets or anything like that. 00:17:11.104 --> 00:17:17.818 We believe the brands have done a very good job of executing a plan for what the appropriate brand standards are. 00:17:17.820 --> 00:17:33.505 In some cases, we might exceed that when we think it has an ROI, but we want to execute the brand standards very well, and we look for leaders who have a track record of experience of being able to build a team to be able to do that, and to be able to do it every day in and out. 00:17:33.505 --> 00:17:36.910 It's not a complicated business, but like I say, breakfast comes around every morning. 00:17:36.915 --> 00:17:38.381 You gotta be able to do it very well. 00:17:38.670 --> 00:17:40.714 You gotta get the team excited about doing it. 00:17:41.074 --> 00:17:47.954 So when we look at it from that perspective, we usually are able to do a good job of balancing our short term against our long term. 00:17:48.438 --> 00:17:51.076 Doesn't mean we're not renovating the properties every year. 00:17:51.076 --> 00:18:01.171 We're re- doing an excellent renovation at the time, and we're doing what needs to be done day in and day out to get the most out of those renovations, and then when it needs to be r- renovated again, we do it again. 00:18:01.173 --> 00:18:09.441 But we definitely don't shortchange ourselves to, I'll do a renovation today, and all of a sudden in two years the asset is looking old and not taken care of. 00:18:10.314 --> 00:18:12.396 You know, you mentioned difficult conversations. 00:18:12.402 --> 00:18:21.655 The most difficult conversations we have is when we have a partner who is clearly not doing their part of the deal, and what happens at that point? 00:18:21.705 --> 00:18:33.557 We've been fortunate to have good partners where we look for them to contribute somehow to that process and if they want to work with us over the long term, if they make a mistake, we're looking for them to be part of the solution with us. 00:18:33.909 --> 00:18:34.056 Of course. 00:18:34.056 --> 00:18:39.821 And fortunately, we've had more examples of where that works out, and sometimes it doesn't, and then we just both move on, and that's that. 00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:42.041 So true. 00:18:42.979 --> 00:18:43.417 Thank you. 00:18:45.221 --> 00:18:53.951 Many leaders that come on our show talk about the importance of making mistakes and taking every mistake as a learning opportunity. 00:18:55.205 --> 00:19:01.336 Can you share a big mistake that you've made, what you learned from it, and how you moved forward? 00:19:02.045 --> 00:19:02.451 Sure. 00:19:02.993 --> 00:19:06.194 We've all made the mistake, especially in the people business. 00:19:06.201 --> 00:19:09.324 Hospitality is and will always be a people business. 00:19:09.328 --> 00:19:15.761 It's all about hiring great leaders to run an asset or run a department or lead a team. 00:19:16.415 --> 00:19:22.007 And I could tell you almost every mistake I have ever made has, has been a people mistake. 00:19:22.023 --> 00:19:29.949 Sometimes you hire a person who seems to be a great person and someone who can really be on board, and sometimes you make a mistake. 00:19:30.028 --> 00:19:32.905 I'm happy to say as you get older, you make less of those. 00:19:33.199 --> 00:19:39.728 But the biggest mistake is when you don't recognize the mistake early on and you don't make a change too early. 00:19:40.138 --> 00:19:45.704 You don't want to admit to yourself you've made a mistake, or you want to hope that it gets better, or you want to... 00:19:45.958 --> 00:19:53.596 Or you start massaging the rest of your team to make up for that one person's shortcomings or that person's inability. 00:19:53.917 --> 00:20:07.450 And then what happens is the people around start questioning your standards or the, the environment breaks down and now those people don't want to be there, and then you end up having good people leaving and you're left with a bad person. 00:20:07.865 --> 00:20:12.178 I've seen it over and over, and I give that advice to every person that I deal with. 00:20:12.583 --> 00:20:27.387 We have a saying, I won't give you the full saying, but it's usually,"We don't keep substandard team members around." And I remember I walked around with one of my good friends who leads a management company and I said that to him,"Don't bring me substandard people." And we're walking around one day about a year later. 00:20:27.403 --> 00:20:33.470 We're walking with one of his GMs, and every question his GM said was just terrible. 00:20:33.678 --> 00:20:36.178 The hotel didn't look good, the people weren't in uniform. 00:20:36.343 --> 00:20:39.824 And he just looked at me and he said,"Okay, that's a substandard GM. 00:20:39.836 --> 00:20:45.157 We got to make a change." So I think when you're in a people business, you got to build great teams. 00:20:45.688 --> 00:20:48.765 You got to hold your standards to bui- bringing in great people. 00:20:48.848 --> 00:20:52.397 We're all gonna make mistakes, but if it's not gonna work out, you have to move on. 00:20:52.404 --> 00:20:56.763 That could be transferring someone, moving them to another location, or just parting ways. 00:20:57.083 --> 00:21:01.553 But you're not doing anybody any favors by keeping someone who's not gonna succeed in a role. 00:21:01.554 --> 00:21:09.382 They're not gonna succeed, and you're, you're

certainly not doing the right thing by yourself, your team, or your organization I absolutely love that. 00:21:09.382 --> 00:21:12.473 I have seen the same thing over and over again. 00:21:12.499 --> 00:21:17.384 If you make a mistake on wrong person and let it go, it hurts you in the long run. 00:21:17.859 --> 00:21:18.673 Very good advice. 00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:18.846 Thank you. 00:21:18.846 --> 00:21:25.073 And after you make the mistake, you always say you should have made it sooner, and you kick yourself for many months after that. 00:21:25.118 --> 00:21:25.963 It always happens. 00:21:27.291 --> 00:21:28.210 It's so right. 00:21:29.244 --> 00:21:33.974 Now, who saw potential in you before you fully saw it yourself? 00:21:34.392 --> 00:21:42.211 And what did that person do to extract the potential out of you, and how has it influenced the way that you've developed other people? 00:21:43.748 --> 00:21:46.464 I'd probably say it's probably a couple of different people. 00:21:46.511 --> 00:21:48.785 You know, I'll start out with I grew up in the industry. 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:50.022 I grew up in New York City. 00:21:50.023 --> 00:21:59.076 My dad ran a couple of small hotels and a couple of restaurants, and he certainly wasn't a, as he refers to it today, he was never an executive. 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.439 He was never a fancy guy that went to Cornell. 00:22:01.702 --> 00:22:05.288 He just worked very hard and used to always tell me about that's all, he worked hard. 00:22:05.289 --> 00:22:14.765 His sis- He had a, an office in one of his restaurants with a drawer in it, and when I came back from Cornell, I asked him about his profit and loss statements and his balance sheets. 00:22:14.765 --> 00:22:15.372 Where are those? 00:22:15.376 --> 00:22:17.137 And he opened up the drawer to his desk. 00:22:17.137 --> 00:22:19.769 He says,"At the end of the day, I dump the money into the drawer. 00:22:20.211 --> 00:22:22.643 I get the bills, I pay it out of the drawer. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:28.285 And what's left pays your tuition." He's always telling me,"Don't be some fancy guy from an Ivy League school. 00:22:28.288 --> 00:22:39.182 You gotta work hard, and that's how you earn people's respect." So I always started with that, that working hard is the foundation and leading by example from that way, and I still do it today. 00:22:39.605 --> 00:22:40.471 I went to Promise. 00:22:40.473 --> 00:22:42.250 I mentioned I worked for Rick Schultz. 00:22:42.654 --> 00:22:47.537 And again, I didn't really know any better, but I was learning about data and, as I said earlier, methodology. 00:22:47.537 --> 00:22:49.391 And he took full advantage of me. 00:22:49.394 --> 00:22:57.709 He definitely, in a good way, he definitely challenged me and put me into different situations and threw me into things that allowed me to learn. 00:22:58.030 --> 00:22:59.605 And he definitely taught me there's... 00:23:00.141 --> 00:23:01.776 You have to have very high standards. 00:23:01.791 --> 00:23:07.930 Even when a hotel was financially in trouble or wasn't performing, you still had to keep the product great. 00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:13.422 You still had to hire great people, and that's your way to work out of a problem, not just to keep cutting and cutting. 00:23:13.797 --> 00:23:16.798 Um, you'll never work your way out of it if you do it that way. 00:23:17.108 --> 00:23:20.337 And then of course, ultimately is my, my partner Mitch Shaw. 00:23:20.705 --> 00:23:27.066 He's always had a vision to get better and work better, and the, the company can always do better, and the company can always get bigger. 00:23:27.067 --> 00:23:39.608 And we always have to challenge ourselves to surround yourselves with great people internally and externally and continue to understand what's going on, not only in our company, but in the industry and in, in the economy. 00:23:39.951 --> 00:23:45.653 And if you have a vision, you can continue to grow and, and improve yourself and never be satisfied. 00:23:45.655 --> 00:23:47.265 So I've been very fortunate. 00:23:47.266 --> 00:23:59.321 I've had a couple of people in my life that have been very helpful and have always challenged me and, um, you know, I like to think I do my part, but certainly wouldn't be a, wouldn't be as successful without them Yeah, indeed. 00:23:59.394 --> 00:24:01.349 Not everyone is as lucky as you. 00:24:01.544 --> 00:24:08.364 You've worked for some exceptional leaders, Rick Schultz and Mitt Shafer, for example, truly exceptional leaders. 00:24:08.886 --> 00:24:09.019 Yeah. 00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:14.035 I spoke on a panel a couple years ago, and Mitt, Rick, and my wife were all in the room. 00:24:14.036 --> 00:24:20.675 I said,"Boy, I'm in a no-win situation here." Great story. 00:24:22.685 --> 00:24:28.740 We sometimes disagree, but sometimes we make the best decision when there's disagreement. 00:24:29.358 --> 00:24:36.121 So how do you encourage differences, and opinions, and being open to change your mind? 00:24:36.568 --> 00:24:36.986 Sure. 00:24:37.131 --> 00:24:38.755 I often wonder about that myself. 00:24:38.756 --> 00:24:40.414 As I said, I'm from New York. 00:24:40.439 --> 00:24:48.381 After 30 years, I still have a little bit of an accent, I still talk fast, and I certainly have a very strong opinion and love to debate. 00:24:48.869 --> 00:24:53.056 But, you know, I've always found that the only way to get other people's opinion is just to ask. 00:24:53.056 --> 00:24:54.261 Say,"Hey, this is what I think. 00:24:54.261 --> 00:24:54.980 What do you think?" Right. 00:24:55.414 --> 00:25:04.540 And encourage people to not shoot them down and say,"That's just a dumb idea," but challenge people with your ideas back and say,"This is why I think the way I do. 00:25:04.546 --> 00:25:14.586 This is the way you think." But you certainly have to be opening to surround yourself with people who are not afraid to give their opinion, and to create a

culture where that happens. 00:25:14.587 --> 00:25:19.159 I know in my team today, I certainly have no shortage of opinions around. 00:25:19.653 --> 00:25:30.930 I remember once I was interviewing a management company and I went to get a reference on a management company, and the guy said,"Yeah, that guy who leads the management company is really, really smart. 00:25:30.931 --> 00:25:36.373 He's probably the best in the business, but he's surrounded himself with yes-men." Everyone just says,"Yes, sir. 00:25:36.373 --> 00:25:36.746 Yes, sir. 00:25:36.746 --> 00:25:38.763 Yes, sir." No one ever changes their opinion. 00:25:38.765 --> 00:25:42.801 And I said to myself and I looked at my team when w- they were describing it. 00:25:42.801 --> 00:25:45.563 I said,"Wow, surrounded by a bunch of yes-men. 00:25:45.570 --> 00:25:46.565 That must be nice." Nice. 00:25:46.945 --> 00:25:49.005 Because I certainly don't have that in my environment. 00:25:49.063 --> 00:25:50.153 But you're better for it. 00:25:50.443 --> 00:25:51.875 I'm absolutely better for it. 00:25:51.959 --> 00:25:58.739 Now, given all that you've learned and accomplished, if you were to offer advice to your younger self, what would that be? 00:25:59.944 --> 00:26:01.047 I think it would be two things. 00:26:01.048 --> 00:26:03.555 One is, is you have to have patience. 00:26:03.589 --> 00:26:05.152 You have to have patience with people. 00:26:05.153 --> 00:26:06.739 You have to have patience with yourself. 00:26:07.098 --> 00:26:15.571 You're in this for the long haul, and developing relationships with people is, will serve you well for a long period of time. 00:26:16.009 --> 00:26:24.173 It's always more important to understand who you're working with and about the people than to understand what they're doing for their job. 00:26:24.199 --> 00:26:28.865 Getting to know people and what makes them tick and what motivates them is much more important. 00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:39.662 So you can't just run in and say,"Okay, what are our numbers for today?" Okay, ask what's going on, how are things going, what's the environment they're in, and how are they doing in it, and what's holding them back. 00:26:39.901 --> 00:26:45.585 When you understand the full picture, then you could really work together to solve any sort of a problem. 00:26:45.878 --> 00:26:50.337 I know back in my younger days, I just wanted to know what the numbers were and what was the problem. 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:57.701 And I learned a lot of great people who taught me that getting to know people and getting to work with people is really the best enjoyment. 00:26:58.005 --> 00:27:02.903 And coincidentally, it's the best way to succeed as well That is so true. 00:27:03.505 --> 00:27:10.394 Having the curiosity to find out more about people, taking an interest in them, that's a secret to good leadership. 00:27:11.057 --> 00:27:11.320 Yeah. 00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:14.288 Takes a while, it takes longer to do that, but that's okay.

00:27:14.355 --> 00:27:16.345 It's, you know, we're not- That's okay we're not in a rush about everything. 00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:16.756 Right. 00:27:17.897 --> 00:27:19.201 Now think about your legacy. 00:27:19.204 --> 00:27:21.150 How would you like to be remembered? 00:27:22.443 --> 00:27:28.627 So, you know, I've certainly learned what I really want to be remembered as has very little to do with, with business. 00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:32.574 I tell my kids, it's all about family and friends and relationships. 00:27:32.576 --> 00:27:47.663 And I know my dad used to tell me,"You never know what people think of you, who you work with, until after they don't work for you anymore." I'm very fortunate to say that I got a lot of people that still keep in touch with me and, and wanna say hello or ask my opinion or maybe even call or ask for advice every now and then. 00:27:48.182 --> 00:27:57.210 I just had someone who worked with me for 15 years that's starting his own shop now, and we got on the phone the other day and he was telling me,"Boy, now I know why the way you are. 00:27:57.211 --> 00:28:07.773 I got a team of people and I got a few substandard people out there that I gotta make a move on, but I appreciate all you did," and, you know, asked me a few specific questions, and that brought a smile to my face. 00:28:07.778 --> 00:28:11.513 So what's certainly more important in life is family, friends, and relationships. 00:28:11.566 --> 00:28:12.306 For sure. 00:28:12.652 --> 00:28:14.317 It's much more gratifying that way. 00:28:14.732 --> 00:28:14.961 Yeah. 00:28:15.510 --> 00:28:19.487 Now we're coming to the end of the show, and we always finish with this question. 00:28:20.028 --> 00:28:22.444 Our show is about self-empowerment. 00:28:22.968 --> 00:28:26.692 Could you offer a final piece of advice on self-empowerment? 00:28:27.748 --> 00:28:39.108 I, I think of something my mom used to always say, which is,"You choose to be happy and you choose to be unhappy." And you have to choose to be happy, and that can be very difficult sometimes. 00:28:39.108 --> 00:28:54.321 So you have to choose to, who you surround yourself with, personal and professional, and you build your teams, again, in, in and out of your office, and that is ultimately your key to long-term success, whatever your definition of success is. 00:28:54.332 --> 00:28:56.881 So, you know, my advice would be choose to be happy. 00:28:56.941 --> 00:28:58.443 That takes on a lot of different forms. 00:28:58.482 --> 00:29:01.736 People can have their own interpretation of that, but I think that's very important. 00:29:01.736 --> 00:29:03.193 I absolutely love that. 00:29:03.541 --> 00:29:04.672 I love that. 00:29:05.154 --> 00:29:06.817 We can choose to be happy. 00:29:06.896 --> 00:29:08.056 That's great advice. 00:29:08.256 --> 00:29:08.398 Very good. 00:29:08.510 --> 00:29:10.134 It's all within your control if you think about it. 00:29:10.454 --> 00:29:12.126 Yeah, it is within our control. 00:29:12.230 --> 00:29:12.762 Thank you. 00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:14.147 Thank you. 00:29:14.844 --> 00:29:16.387 It's been a great conversation. 00:29:16.387 --> 00:29:19.797 I wanna thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom with us. 00:29:20.347 --> 00:29:23.590 And for our audience, I appreciate your tuning in. 00:29:23.637 --> 00:29:27.729 If you enjoyed this conversation, I hope you would join us on our website. 00:29:27.810 --> 00:29:29.744 It's personalstories.com. 00:29:30.161 --> 00:29:31.246 We'll see you next time. 00:29:31.612 --> 00:29:32.160 Thank you.