Black Excellence Is More Than Making Money | Philosophy Yap #15의 전체 녹취록

innovative. And Thoughtful or important. Damien: I wanna pause right there. Josh: Okay. Damien: do you have some thoughts already that you'd like to? Josh: I mean I have plenty of thoughts. He's going to paint himself into a corner and I'm just waiting for that to happen. And so I Damien: You Josh: I we can always skip to that part. yes, I I think He's trying to make a point. Pong: they might be useful insofar as they you know Damien: my bad. Pong: they're your dentists. Josh: He's trying to make a point. And I I can appreciate where he's coming from because he really does want to focus in on good character and things that are aspirational and actually Long term beneficial. I'm like, okay, I agree about that. The way he's getting about it though is a mistake. And I I I'm like, you're telling on yourself in a way that is not helpful. You're like, I don't believe these black elites. I'm like, but see you're you're painting yourself as a black elite, but you're not doing any of like the background work by describing Madame C J Walker as like a random rich person. I'm like, but like, how did she get there? Doesn't that matter? Isn't that directly why she was honored? I think I think we're skipping over some steps. I don't think the rich part was the part that everybody was the only that wasn't the only reason people liked her. I think we can we can say that she got that she got rich eventually, and that's awesome. But the come up was all the things and the work she did and the ideas she had and the inventions she made and the actual connections that happened. You're really ignoring A lot of the backstory, which makes me wonder do you know the backstory? I don't even know the backstory, Damien: I mean what? Josh: and I live here. Just like I mean. Damien: I mean, look, I think you're right. think you're right on that. But I think, and he's going to paint, I do believe he's going to paint himself into a corner. But I think the thing that's really going to pop out is that. Even if he did know those things, he would overlook them for the point that he wants to make. Josh: Yes, yes. And that's fair. He has a point he wants to make. I want him to make his point so he can support his argument. I just this is a hard way to get there. It's just Damien: You Josh: you're gonna alienate the majority of the audience. But okay, let's let's see how we get there. Damien: All right, yeah, let's jump a little bit because I have definitely some thoughts, but I'm gonna hold on for a sec. Hopefully he gets us there. Pong: And your doctors, but I not like in terms of the struggle for black community uplift. You know, Spellman pretty much just got bought by Claude. They have an AI president who's now going to to imbricate all aspects of that learning institution with artificial intelligence to prepare people for the future, apparently, but I actually think it's just gonna make it the case that Spellman's gonna become more of a beauty college and nobody's gonna read a book.

Nobody's gonna read a book. And because AI is gonna do all of their work. And I think I don't want that to be the case. I don't want that to be the case. I don't think that's particularly good for the black mind. And I a few reasons why I don't want my kids to go there. I don't I don't want my kids to be around or even aspire to become that quality of both professional, professionally successful and vacuous at the same time and still obnoxious. I do not I do not like these things. And another thing I'm kind of getting from this book are kind of people, and this is this is gonna get this is gonna this is gonna cause trouble because I don't think the author did this on purpose. It seemed like the worst kind of the worst aspects of these cultural institutions are heavily gendered towards women. Like women are running the worst aspects of these institutions. Maybe not the bootlays, but in terms of the the worst aspects of the Divine Nine, except for, you know, maybe the th outright thuggish aspects of of the Omegas. But th but even that can you can have a kind of sense of humor about that in a way. But the worst aspects of the AKA the Delta is the the Jack and Jills They are overrun by women and that's where you get like a concern for tradition over a spiritual depth. And a g I think and concern for money and the esteem over actual wisdom. And you know, the origin of the gender divide here actually goes back to Book Eight and Plato. But it's just not surprising that the lack of spiritual heft among the black excellence crowd is heavily gendered. Is is is and it's not great. So I don't like rich black people, I don't like, you know, trailer trash white people, but you know, working class folks I g working class black people I think I I adore. But the others I you can miss me with them. You can you can miss me with them in a profound way. And maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe there's a room full of AKA's that you would love to spend time with, but me not so much. Not so much. And that's who's running these institutions. And I don't think that's particularly great for the black mind. And I don't think that leads to community uplift. I think it leads to a quality of worshiping of the wrong things for the wrong reasons. And Yeah, I'm not a I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan. All right. Damien: I gotta stop again. The reason I'm wanting to stop is because like most, it's because this is a left leaning argument to me, right? This is what it feels like. But like most left feeling, left arguments to me, I think that they're pointing to something that's valid, right? At some level. But my issue is... I don't know if this is the same thing you were gonna say like. Why are you condemning production? Like that's the condemnation of production. doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But at the same time... I understand like maybe his focus is black people and this, what he's calling Jack and Jill, the Jack and Jill group or whatever of black people. But this is just, I'll put a comment in it. It's not really fair to talk about this group disconnected from any other like bourgeoisie group. Like this is just what they are. This is how that particular group moves, right? And they do a lot of good things and that is some vacuousness. Yeah, vacuity. Josh: Vacuity. Yes. Damien: And that's just, but I come to believe that that's just the nature of society. If you just look at all societies, yes, you Josh: These are people. Damien: know, it's just a, it's a class, I guess I would say. It's a class of people. Josh: It's a class issue, a hundred percent. Damien: And I don't think that you can lump all of the elites into this because I think that this is not really, I don't necessarily think that this is. what I would consider upper elite, upper elite, in the sense that I think that what he's talking about is like that lower level elite table in my opinion. Like this is the, I don't if I would call it like, and I'm not trying to be like. condescending or insulting to anybody. But like, you see this a lot in like around the DC area, right? Government Josh: Yes. Damien: jobs, know, black money coming off of the, what was the mayor that got everybody like in the government, like Job Mill, forgot his Josh: Very good. Damien: name, Marion Barry. It's Josh: There you go. Damien: a show, actually somebody did a show about how PG County is the richest black county in the country. And that, to me, that group is deep in there, right? Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: It's very much, you're probably gonna find a whole lot of Deltas and lot of AKAs in there, and there's a lot of well-to-do people. And like I said, it's a lot of government money. It's a lot of mingling and socializing money. You know what mean? Like those people who get their money through relationships, you know, networks. Josh: Mm-hmm. Networks are huge. Damien: And the networks are great. Yeah, great. But I don't, like when I think about people like Elon Musk, I'm like, he don't seem like he can get along with people like that, like that. You know I'm saying? It's not the same. Josh: I mean, he has a different network, but like it's a different level of elite status. I think there's anyway, I'll let I'll let you finish. Damien: Yeah, I I'm not trying to racialize it either. I'm just talking about for more like, there are top level performers in production. if I look at production, there are people who are kind of like status quo high producers. And then there are elite level high producers who actually innovate and push industries further and push the envelope. And I think he's like more talking about their socializing group. And, but my thing is that it's not fair to talk about, well, I guess if you're black, that's your focus, but that's not like, they're not any different than the other groups in that class of society. Josh: Exactly. It is a class issue and they're certainly doing similar things. They're certainly relating to the world in similar ways and that part is true. I

think it's a mistake to get distracted by the class part because like we there there have been real issues throughout history where people in poverty some people decided to Focus on character and make sure that they wanted to be a certain class of person and have just a regardless of how much money they had, they acted in a certain way. And there are certain people who have kept th those kind of hardworking, dressing well, great hygiene, you know, polite manner. They kept those traditions as they moved up in the world. And then there are other people who just, you know, the nouveau r noble rich. You know, they sang, they danced, they did whatever, and they didn't bother with any of that stuff. And they're like, Nope. I have money now and I don't care about my character in the sense that I'm not prioritizing it and I'm going to live any way I want to because I have that ability now. And I think those are two separate kinds of or two two separate approaches to life. And I think those there's something to be said for the people who took the more disciplined, character-focused approach versus the wealth-focused approach. And I think there are ways to applaud productivity that don't ignore the character of the people we're trying to support. And because there are people out there who have, you know, had a lot of things handed to them who are, you know, second and third tier second second and third generation just middle class, wealthy or upper class. And, you know, they may not have focused on their character. And there are real consequences to that. Like, these people are there are some people who just happen to get what get what they needed and starts to get their needs met so they can go on and pursue education. And there is some vacuity there. They're just pursuing The trappings of wealth just just cause they can. And then there are other people who are actively focusing on not just education, not just wealth, but actively built becoming a person who is worthwhile, putting out more good into the world, and actively using what they have in a real concise way. And some of these people, some of some of both of these classes, are in the Greek groups. So I'm like, it's really unfair to lump them all. But I understand what he's talking about because it's not all of them. Damien: Yeah. Josh: And there are significant amounts of people who are just like. I'm important because I'm a part of this group. And you're not a part of this group, and therefore I'm better than you. Like, all right, good talk. Glad we could do this. Maybe, may, maybe we never do this again. You seem like you don't want you don't like me and you aren't interested in learning about me. And I'm not interested in being condescended to you. So please feel free to go back to your see to your tribe. If that's gonna make you feel better about yourself, go go go do that. Damien: Yeah, mean, I, so, I probably don't have as many, I don't have close relationships with people in that circle. I've had, I've come in contact with people in that circle. Like I said, I'm in D, I mean, been in D.C., around D.C., I mean, just, I'm from black areas, period. So it's just, that's just what you're gonna see a lot of that anyway. thing about the character piece, which is troubling to me, is that... I like to look at character in a holistic manner. And I don't, I truly dislike and think it's wrong to disconnect or disassociate productivity and character. Like, I don't like this whole, I'm a poor person who thinks so I have a better character. No, I'm not buying it yet. Josh: Right. And I was like, no, that's not right. Poverty is not a virtue. That you cannot claim that. Damien: Great. Yeah. So the working class, I love talking to them. I mean, look, there's nothing wrong with the working class. It doesn't Josh: Right. I like talking to them too. Damien: really say anything about a person to be working class in this character lane. You know what I'm saying? So that part, I don't love how it's framed. And this is why I'm looking at it as like a left leaning argument, because it's framed as like, It's like the materialist argument, right? These people are out here making money, spending money with no depth to them. You keep saying emotional heft, I think is whatever, you just keep saying, no, not emotional, but spiritual heft. Josh: Right, yeah. Damien: And I understand and I feel like I see that. Even like almost like in some empty shell religious communities, right? People kind of like, Josh: Yeah, hypocrisy exists. Damien: it's like churches are almost like a performance. It's not really there to deepen or give you any type of depth to your character. It's there because this is what we do. We come here. on Sundays and dress up in clothes, you know, and show out to each other. So I see parts Josh: People do it. Damien: of that. I see parts of that, but... The thing that... I really, well, I don't know if he's got, I'm gonna kind of give a hint to the thing that makes this part, I mean, his conversation makes me think about is that to me, it's almost like in black culture, somehow that's like the upper room, right? And I wanna see. Like this is, I can't say that what I just said was true. All I'm saying is that's my perception of it. And I just, because rich and... Like there's, I think we agreed that there are groups, if not classes of people who are highly successful and kinda, that's about it. It's pretty much, that's all you get. It's like, they got degrees. Josh: Yeah. And sometimes their success doesn't always rely on significant talent or even ability. They're like, I have I have I have enough. I have enough ability and enough connections where you know what, I can perform satisfactorily. I'm not gonna go out and change the world. I'm out here being good enough. Damien: Yeah, and a lot of that's gonna be driven by relationships though. The ability to socialize and create these relationships to me. And, but there's something in my mind

beyond that, right? It would include elements of what he's talking about, know, reading, understanding some things about history or about learning about knowledge about people in some look, in some connection to a spirituality, right? I'm not saying in this religious, I'm not saying in this, you know, like something that comes from a, a theist type of lane or something like that. Josh: Framework or anything. Yeah. Damien: Yeah, but just something that goes a little deeper beyond the materialism or materialist consumerism world, I'm just using all these words or whatever. But like... I just get this impression and perception that at the highest levels of a black culture, that's at the top levels of black culture, right? And like I said, I could be argued down on it, on that point. And the reason why I'm saying it, I should have had some notes. The reason why I'm saying it is because I just feel like that's like a really collective type of angle. And that's why I brought up figures like Elon Musk, or figures like Steve Jobs, or figures like people who are trailblazers, or people who... don't really get along with everybody. know, their path was not to say, hey, we're all together here. They're like, hey, we're doing this thing over here and we pushing envelopes, we coming out with products, you gonna have to sue us. You gonna have to, you know I'm saying? Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: And that's the lane, like to me, I feel like, do we really have, I mean, like we have that lane. Like if I could say maybe a Jay-Z or somebody like that, but I don't really look at Jay-Z with like the spiritual half type of person necessarily. Especially with Beyonce and it's not like I'm saying anything negative about them. know what I'm saying? It's just that, I, cause I don't Josh: Just different. Damien: think this is for everybody. You know what I'm saying? I don't think everybody should have to have this kind of depth that he's talking about, but I just find it. interesting to me that I'm like, is that the apex of black culture? That's my question about Josh: Hm. Damien: it. Josh: No, it's definitely the most popular black culture, I'll s I'll say that, but not the Apex. We have all our all the people at at the Apex are just very not all majority of the people at the Apex are are very, very quiet. We just don't hear about all our phenomenal black business people, black inventors, black billionaires, black people who are actively doing the most for the community, putting the most things together, organizing the community to actually vote for effectively and get needs met. And be their own police force and be their own fire department. There are so many things that are happening on a national like so many's happening nationally that it's super hard to, you know, be in all all all the places and get all that information. But it's even hard to do locally because things aren't being promoted or being talked about in a way that allow everyone to know what's going on. And sometimes that's for a reason, because you know, it has not worked out well when people started getting real loud about bunch of black people doing okay over here, doing better than white people. So that's a that's always been a concern. Damien: And I'm not necessarily talking about having more money than white people. I'm just talking about... the elite that does not have to align themselves. That's kind of what I'm talking about. Maybe that is a Jay-Z or something like that, you know? Or... Josh: I I don't know. I mean I think it's more like a buoy. Like those people out there, they're making their own thing, they're doing their own life. they're building their own farms and buildings and whole whole lifestyles just like you know, they're living they're living a different dream than a lot of the other people in America. And so like, yeah, they're just they're not talking about it. They're not really putting it out there for everyone to know. So Damien: I mean, but okay, so when you say, right. Not putting it out there for everybody to know. So where does the influence come into play? Just pushing money? Is that what you're saying? Like, just put money into the play? Josh: No. Money is the least part or the very rare part that I guess is the concern. I think there are people who are actively solving problems, making inventions, doing their patents, becoming the support system for that a lot of things over that for a lot of things that we use. They are the quiet inven I wouldn't I wouldn't even call call them an I won't even call them an inventor class. It's more like quiet experts and the quiet wealthy who are just staying staying below the radar. And I I give them credit for doing it, but you know it's you have to really look if you really want to Check out what's happening. You're like, how are they doing it? I'm like, well, they actively designed this. They built this part of this, they did this math problem, they solved what GPS was, they built this part of the cell phone, they built this part of the computer, they built this part of AI, they built this part data set that we're using for solving problems. I'm like, excellent. So people are doing it and they're making lots of contributions. Awesome. Why don't I know about any of them? It's like they don't want you to know about them. They are acting some the people themselves who are doing it aren't interested in being famous and then the people around them don't want them to be famous. They've there's a there's a dual influence there to keep certain people not you know to keep to keep certain people out of the limelight. And it's interesting that some people don't want it. And it's interesting that certain people want it more. So I'm like, well you know, I'm not gonna fault them on their choice. But it also makes it really harder when I'm like, you know, they're doing a lot of things. Like, yeah, I mean, ooh. Like And I have to go do research and like pull it up. Damien: I feel like we might

be talking about two different things. And Josh: We are. Yes. Damien: I think you're talking about what, from an individual standpoint, like typically what we normally talking about. that's usually my focus. But because we're looking at, his criticism is what this class means for black culture, Josh: Right. Damien: right? The black community. And I'm thinking of it from the community angle as well. Josh: I mean Damien: Not because somebody's job, but just because when these things are happening, you see evidence of these. You can point to some evidence of these things happening, right? And not to say that people don't have the financial resources. I'm saying that the people who have the financial resources that have the influence, that create holistic. change, evolution, or just even good things. You know I'm saying? Josh: Yeah, progress. Damien: Just basic good things like that. That's all I... Because I feel like when we start talking about inventions and having my money and going by myself, there's a lot of people like that. But they're like one-offs. Josh: Yeah. Yes. Damien: They don't... And I guess, am I talking about one-offs? I mean, I'm thinking about this as I'm talking to you. about it, you know what mean? So it's not like I'm have a conclusion Josh: Mm-hmm. I mean, Damien: here. Josh: we just we have to separate some of the big things that we can see Divine Nine people do versus the little or more local impact that they have. And I think there are helpful things that they do on a local level that is worthwhile and worthy of, you know, commendation. Like, all right. They fed the kids over here, they did the mentoring program, they did Big Brothers, Big Sisters, they did a lot of school drives, they did a lot of church drives, a lot of health drives, a lot of resource intensive portions that were helpful for people on a local level. I want to give them credit for that. That part is amazing. on bigger scales, things that were more promoted or more obviously seen, you know, they did a lot of parties, they did a lot of gatherings, they had a lot of step shows and concerts and other things that I'm like, you know. This was fun and this was entertainment. And this got a lot more play than all of the small things that were done. And so I'm like, well, you know, that's I have to appreciate the good they did and that the at that that they're doing. I have to also acknowledge that like the entertainment stuff is entertainment and it's not their biggest contribution to America. And that when it comes to academics, there are people in the academic world who are A part of these groups that don't they encourage education, but they're not always big on actual application, character growth, you know, outside of people joining their group and starting to do it there. So I'm like, you know, that that is that is a criticism that I am I'm I'm open to hear more about because I ought I went to school with a lot of these people. I know them well, my parents

are in the divine nine, I Grown up around it, I've seen it all my life, and I'm like, hey, I get it. Yes, this this happens. There are people here who are trying to help. And there are a lot of others who are just along for the ride. And you know what? They are not they are not trying to help. They will help if you force them to, but they they are not interested in the progress of the human race or the betterment of society. They're they are very focused on just riding the coattails of whoever got them into this group. parents or their uncles or their best friends, whatever. And they they just want to make things a little bit better in their lives. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I don't want to pretend that's Damien: Hey! Josh: the same thing as someone who has, you know, this great character who's actively trying to, you know, become a better person. Damien: But see, and that's what I'm trying to, that's my focus in here. Because as I'm looking at this culture, as I'm seeing it as, maybe not the apex, but I don't know, this is like. I don't know, I feel like this is what a lot of people aspire to and I'm assuming that they should, they probably Josh: Yeah, it's just Damien: should, right? But. So if the criticism of being vacuous is accurate, then to me, this is the group of society where the leftist arguments can be accurate. Because these are a lot of people who make money and spend it, and that is the depth of their life. It's almost like when you say, when people are like, well, these people are just caught in the consumers capitalist society. the negative part of that criticism is true. the reason, so Josh: But that's true for everybody in society. That's Damien: I get what you're saying, but let me finish real quick because the capitalist aspect really is about you being able to do what you want. And that's all up to you. And it's the assumption is that you are making your choices, but there are people based upon their behaviors. They're not really making choices, they're really keeping up with the Joneses, right? And that's their head space. And so the whole idea of making money and increasing your social capital, whatever they call it, Josh: Standing. Damien: social standing by making money and buying more things. and spending more money. Like Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: that argument, that argument that comes from the left that y'all out here just, y'all don't know what the hell y'all doing. Y'all just putting on for everybody. That's an accurate argument. Even though I Josh: It is. Damien: don't really have an argument, I don't have, I don't condemn it. I think it's space for it. I just think that if that's the, if that's the, if that's the apex of the, of the height of this, of this particular subculture. damn, this criticism is actually accurate, even though I still would fall on the side of capitalism because there are gonna be some people in there who really understand what they're doing and making decisions, but that's what capitalism does. It gives people that umbrella to just go have a F off life. know what I'm saying? It's not an F off life. It's a, I'm not thinking about this deeply. I'm making enough money and it's working out type of life. Josh: Yeah, I mean I just Damien: That's pretty much what I was saying. Josh: I just wanna say that 'cause what 'cause that's That's a fine thing to say. Like when people are like, hey, there are backgrounds people out there, I'm like, yes. And these people belong to these groups. Okay, sure. I Damien: Mm-hmm. Josh: just don't want people to stop there. I'm like, sure. Damien: Right. Josh: Hypocrisy exists, and yes, there are people out there who are completely going through the motions, keeping up with the Joneses, following random traditions. I'm like, and that's a lot of people. I don't want to pretend like they're not. I just want to I don't want that to be. the focus as far as like this is not what we aspire to be though, right? Like we we get it. The majority of people are doing the majority things. They're just kinda like hanging out doing whatever. And that is Damien: Right, right. Josh: a very low level of development path. Like hey, not everybody is emotion is emotionally mature or intelligent or actively aware of everything. I'm like, no, no, no, most people aren't. But that's just not the goal. Let's just stop when people like, I'm criticizing the left when left When people criticize you on the left for pursuing just the general trappings of wealth and like, can you believe this would happen? I mean like sixty to like ninety percent of people are doing this. So yes, I can believe it would happen. The pro the the numbers are on the side of the majority doing majority things. I'm not asking about that. I'm saying about what do we aspire to? What are the excellent what are the one percent doing? What are the point one percent doing? Right, that's moving them forward. How can we emulate that? There are some things that do work. How can we learn more about the things that are working and say, let's do more of that? So when this guy's like, hey, I don't wouldn't I wouldn't want to hang out with so many AKAs. I'm like, be s more specific. Talk about the character you hate. Talk about the actions that are like, hey, I hate it when these people just ascribe to say I'm better than you because I belong to a group, but they don't do anything differently than any of the rest of the group. I hate it when these people go say like I I I am better than you because I have this money and I live in this place and I went to this school and I did this thing. But then when I need like things to get done around around the world when they're actually supposed to take leadership or take accountability and effectively make change happen in my neighborhood, they don't do that. Like that's the thing you should be talking about. Focus on the actions that aren't happening that you don't like, but the actions you want to see more of. Damien: I

think he's doing that a bit though, right? He's doing it in places. Josh: He may get there. I don't I have not seen I've not seen the re rest of his video. I just I want him to start pointing out actions over specific groups. I think character over tribes is is where where I'm getting that. I think that would be helpful for him to describe what he wants to see in the world so we have less of this overgeneralization to say like, people do people things sometimes, and I don't like it when it's inefficient or low level or undeveloped and immature. I'm like, I don't like immaturity Damien: Yeah. Josh: either. But that's not like a That's not like a divine nine problem. I mean most people I meet are immature. That's that's that's that is that is a problem in our society. We are not effectively encouraging self development in a way that makes it more likely than not. Damien: But see, here's, and I was getting ready to play, but then the last line you just gave me, because you say most people are immature, right? And I have this belief that, that, cause I'm looking at it from a socialized mind. You know, my five, well, no my Kegan and, not necessarily Jung, but Kegan in a sense. I'm looking at it as like a socialized mind angle. And so when I'm thinking about socialized mind, I'm thinking about level three being like that fabric of society. To me, this is that group that he's talking about, that upper three tier, collectively oriented, social, definitely the relationships are everything, but they're successful as well. And I'm looking at like... I'm thinking about it like, I don't look at them as immature people really, right? I don't, even if I don't think that they have a lot of depth, I don't think that they, and I don't look at them as immature people in the sense that I'm, when I hear criticism from like people who, who disconnect productivity from, from like any moral, aspect of life or like a lot of left arguments. I'm like, well. We can't have a life with you all people. We can't have a society with you all. We could have a society with these people as the base. Like they are the ballasts. When I say these people, I'm talking about that middle class, that the sentry or sentinel. basically, you know, salt of the earth type people, you know I'm saying? Josh: Right? Damien: Whereas though it might not be that deep, it may just be like, we doing a drive in the neighborhood, a book drive or something like that, or coaching a football team. You need all of these aspects, right? Josh: You need it regardless, yes. That part's the truth. Damien: But it's not like a groundbreaking thing necessarily. But it's a glue. It's a glue aspect of the society. And therefore, it should be respected for the job that it does, in my opinion. So to me, there are levels of maturity. And if I'm not talking about a person, because you know people have ups and downs, but I'm just talking about people as a group in a sense. I'm like, yeah, those people are mature. They can keep a community together. They can keep. their lives and create families and all of those things, or at least go get up and go to work and make money and be productive for somebody, blah, blah, blah. And when I hear these criticisms from people who almost can't do that, and it's not just so much that they can't do it, the thing that they're arguing for will not provide that thing, right? I'm like, I'm looking at that like, see, that's immature. See, I don't care how many books you read, you may be super intelligent. you don't understand how things fit together that this group, like you said, is probably the majority and it keeps everything kind of stable from a standpoint of being able to grow from there. And I don't necessarily think that a total destruction is a better option. you know, but Josh: Right. Damien: also if that middle group starts to deteriorate as far as their character, whereas though you have tradition without religion, damn man, I'm like rambling because I'm just probably talking about my deep experience or relationship, you know, in the black community. Because for me, I'm brought up in a Christian environment, you know what saying? So to me, that group I identify with. church on Sundays and all of that type of stuff, right? Josh: Yeah. Damien: And so, as that, that sort of, angle in the culture deteriorates, where people don't go to church, where people don't have religion, it's like, if you don't put something else there and you're not that deep, What are you besides this materialist consumer? Like. Josh: Hedonist if nothing else. I mean, they're definitely focusing on the range of the moment positive experience. And so yes, I think it's a lot of it's great to keep pointing out the fact that there is a an actual glue to the society. There are people who don't spend all day thinking about thinking, trying to actively superdevelop themselves to become like, you know, the world's most enlightened individual. There are just people out here who recognize that they have needs, they need to go meet those needs, and they're gonna go use their time as best they can to go to their job, get this get as much they can from that job, pay their bills, feed their family, feed themselves, and make sure everything comes together. And I'm like, you know what? That's enough. You're independent, you're making good choices, I'll take it. We need you, society needs you. This is the basis for the majority of the foundation of our of our country. Like when we're when we're talking about The everyday man, I'm like, I want to see these kind of responsible human beings around me. These are the people I want, these are the people I I want to appreciate 100%. I think there's time we have to acknowledge that that most people are this way and that's okay. I think it's also helpful to say, while that is possible for humans, that's not the only avenue for fulfillment or the only thing I want to see out of the entire human race. There are people out there

who are capable of more. I would love to see them be able to have the opportunity to do more. Damien: That's fair. Cool. I was gonna give it a little bit more if you wanna know. Josh: Yeah, go for it. Damien: Cool. Pong: They take on popular thought of white society and run with it without thinking critically. Yeah. They don't necessarily take on the popular thought of white society. They think they take on the most lucrative thought of white society and don't think on it critically, which isn't gonna lead to any sort of deep understanding of what self determination entails in the black community. I don't think and I I don't I don't want them. And I don't think it's actually long term reproducible because I think it that'll actually be an engine of downward mobility as you won't have the wherewithal to actually reproduce insight into your children. and not just the habits of professional sex, but actually the insight that'll allow them to think through the problems in a meaningful way across generations. Because yeah, you might be able to reproduce a surgeon, but then that surgeon's gonna end up with a divorce or like with that surgeon's gonna end up with a marriage to someone that you just do not like. Or that surgeon's gonna be so in love with surgery, they're not gonna have kids anyway. So like there's gonna be a problem with that spiritual vacuousness that come that is realized and expressed in the reproduction. And you're gonna be surprised that your kids are not quite as impressive as you would like to think, even if, you know, You raise them in Lynx and you raise them in in Jack and Gerald, but somehow they're just not great people. And then your grandkids are gonna be wholly obnoxious. And you're gonna wonder how that is. Now The lack of spiritual heft I think is is important, not only because it obstructs reproduction, the reproductive mechanism so that the kids end up not quite as impressive as their parents. But the lack of spiritual heft is like is a problem because it's going to confuse b like the black community. And I think the real talented tet, this is the the the talented tet. the boys talks about later on in his life is the one that can actually give to community in a meaningful way and not just fake give to community. And that's and that's, I think, undermined by the priorities of the black elite, which actually becomes functionally either confused or undermining the conditions of progress, which you I think you see in Bakari sellers trying to corral Negroes into supporting Israel. I think that is a function of a black elite actually confusing what the struggle for justice looks like. And I think there are stakes to this. And I think there are stakes to that. you know, none of these none of these kind of our kind of people Negroes were actually were actually at the march on Washington. Marion Anderson was there. But none of they they they didn't want to worry about jobs and freedom. They were too but they had jobs. They were too busy being great. being elite at cotillions. I do not want my daughter to go to a cotillion. And I was thinking, what's the difference between like a cotillion and a ba mitzvah? Not a bot mitzvah. Well, a spiritual element. A spiritual element. It's not just a coming out and announcing yourself as sexually available and having all the right manners, but actually as a deep person. So The difference between a Cotilian and a bar mitzvah might be, you know, spiritual heft. And I think the difference between the black elite and you know I and a deeper kind of elite is a quality of spiritual heft. Like the Mormons, they don't do a coming out party, they on their mission, which is a kind of a different kind of spiritual journey. And that's you know something I respect. So the lack of spiritual heft among the class of elite blacks, I think, is is a problem. Among the a different world class of blacks is I think a a a problem and an undiagnosed problem. Well it might be diagnosed, but just not diagnosed openly. and articulately like I'm doing. And if you appreciate what I'm doing, go ahead and go to www dot funkyacademic.com. Kick in five fifteen or fifty dollars a month because this idea that you can have tradition You can have money, you can even have professional success, but still that's bereft of a quality of spiritual heft that's required to actually like be a meaningfully good person, is I think something that needs to be articulated and is articulated rather well by me. You're welcome. And Yeah. Surprised how strangely matriarchal these institutions of black excellence seem to be, these cultural institutions of black excellence. And I think there's there might be something to that because there's a there's a a lack of reasoned depth that has been gendered male in the West and I think is expressed in the relative superficiality of of the Jack and Jill crowd. I mean, it's good for them. They get they should maybe I'm wrong and they could keep doing them. That's fine. They could keep going up to Sag Harbor and they could keep with the Hamptons and and maybe Obama now that Obama's in it, 'cause I don't think maybe Michelle Obama wasn't in it before. But now she's in it now and maybe her kids are in it and maybe that's maybe that's good. For them, I just don't want any part of it for me and mine. And I'm not convinced it leads to actual community uplift or clarity about the struggle. Yeah. So you know, I had a video before. I took it down. I often don't take down videos, but I need I need to actually do it again with more receipts about how I was just put off by in reading up from slavery for the same project. I was surprised by how feminized Booker T. Washington was. And you're like, Booker T. Washington, how could he be feminized? He was the the the the do-for-self guy. And I was like, well, a lot of it was for the the white gays. And when you read Booker T. Washington himself, he was like, Look, I the product of rape. I didn't know my father, he

was raised by his mother. and he was raised by both his mother and then another white woman for whom he was the house negro. He said he learned from more from her than anything else. So there's a kind of there's a feminization of this respectability politics that's not actually looked at as such, that respectability politics is inherently feminine because it's not through the reflection of the mind and one's autonomy, but is always in the opinion of another. You're always worried about the opinion of another in a unbecoming way, I think. and you get that. from both the appeal of our kind of people who will raise you to be both esteemed by others in a way that's not particularly deep. And you know, Booker T Washington's up from slavery. Damien: So I want to really go for it. I wanted to go more, but it's kind of irritating me. Because he's conflating some things that's kind of irritating me. I almost, I feel like I agree with him on some angles, But he's criticizing this thing as if it's not basic reality status quo life. You know I'm saying? Like, I mean. I don't know, because to me, if you're going to criticize classes, if you recognize classes, but if you see this as a class issue. I don't see what has changed about this throughout, I don't know, last 500, 1000 kids. Josh: All of history. What are we talking about? It's like rich people do rich people things and poor people just eat it up. Yeah, you're welcome. That's Damien: You Josh: how that works. Power. It gets power. And if you have economic power, other people fall in line 'cause they don't have power. That's how that works. 'Cause it's power. That's how power works. Damien: But even the sort of power part, all right, cool. That's one lane of it. But the criticism part of it, right? It's like, I don't like this section of society. Because some of those people are going to move into those sections, into that section of society. Josh: Right. These are fluctuating classes. They're not static at all. Damien: But the classes, it's not that the classes aren't static. The classes are static. The people aren't static. You know what I'm Josh: No, the people. The people are. Right there you go. Those are the ones who are moving. When they say upperly mobile, they mean that. They they but not everybody's moving up. But either way, I just he complains a lot of things. He doesn't like specific actions that he saw. And there are real detrimental actions that have occurred. And I want him to be more specific when he speaks. And so he'll have some clarity so he can say things like, hey, I didn't like it. When people abuse their power over here. I didn't like it when these people who he looked up to, and Booker T. Washington and whatnot. I hated how the fact he used his power to support these random white gay people. When he had a lot of other actual people who were actively starving. He could have done differently. Like, okay, that's fair. I mean it didn't didn't take away from what he did, but I hear what you're saying. You would have done it differently had you been in his spot. Damien: But he's not even, but his argument right at this point, this junction, it's not even power so much. It's Josh: Not power. Just doesn't like it. Damien: the inclinations of people in whatever they care about. It's like, Booker T. Washington was putting on for, basically putting on for the white man. That's Josh: Right. Damien: kind of what it's coming off as, right? But that's his prerogative, right? Josh: Yes. Damien: And so I wouldn't say that that's what I got out of it. I probably got out the salt of the earth character, the character issues up from slavery, right? Josh: Right. Damien: How important hygiene is, how, you know, to dedication and discipline and those aspects of it. So I think when I boiled it all down to me is that I like to look at society holistically and that means that there are going to be people in this area. Like we're all born here and we're taking this journey and some of us get through all of these steps and some of us stop in the middle. Some of us don't even get to the middle. Josh: Don't take it right? Not everybody's doing the same, or getting the f getting as far as you know, some others. Damien: Right, but it doesn't make me, it does not cause me to criticize the group though, right? Because in my mind, I look at it as all necessary. I do. That's why I wouldn't say that I don't support leftists. I support the ideas that they bring up. So I'm like, hey, put your opinions in the box and when we get to them, we'll rationalize them and get them fixed. You know what saying? Because Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: when people give you these suggestions of doing, well, they're not giving you suggestions of doing things. They're telling you they're gripes. I don't like this thing. And I don't like this thing, and I don't like that thing, and I don't like this thing. But somebody who's trying to be rational and put things together is like, I can't do anything with that. I can't build anything with this. You know what I'm saying? Josh: Yes, I don't need your value judgment. I don't I don't I believe you, but I don't care. How the part that's relevant for both of us is that hey this thing exists. This problem exists or this obstacle Damien: Mm-hmm. Josh: exists or this thing exists here and it will stop people who want to get here from getting there. I'm like, Okay, that is useful information if I want to get there. Now I have something Damien: Right. Josh: to hold on to. But just hearing like, hey, I don't like this group, I don't like that group. I don't like the way that he said that. I don't like the way they did this other thing. I'm like, hey man, that's probably true. I don't know why you're sharing it though. Like we we really do need to focus our conversation onto these shared values and these shared actual issues. Let's let's work towards something. I mean you can you can say these other things later, but let's like start with the with

the shared part. Damien: Yes. And for some people, when you say that, it's falling on deaf ears. they are Josh: Yeah. Damien: oriented, they believe that their complaints are. I'm not saying these complaints aren't justified. They believe that their complaints are enough. Like, hey, Josh: Yes. Damien: I complained to you, I came to you and I told you this was bad. And I'm like, Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: do you have something to do about it? And they might even give you something like, there's nothing we can do about it. Whoa, then why are we even, in my mind, I'm like, well, why are we even talking about this then? Because this Josh: Why are we even talking about this? Damien: is your problem. You don't have any idea of how to come up with a solution. I didn't come up with one. If I come up with one, I'll call you back. That's all I can do with it, you know? But once again, I don't really understand. I feel like he's just saying like, people lack depth and they should have some. Josh: There you go. You've summarized the entire 30 minutes right there. That is Damien: You Josh: his whole point. I like depth. I think depth is important. People should have some. I don't think they have any. Like, but you don't you don't know these people. You don't know most of these people. Well, as people I've seen, I don't I don't think they have it. I don't think they have that depth. They should have it. You know what? I think people should have depth as well. I think that's fine. Start with you. You do yours, I'll do me, and then together maybe we can fight figure out how we can encourage more of that in the world. But yes. Solutions are are Damien: Yeah. Josh: key. Damien: And I agree, and I'm gonna probably just play just a little bit more, but. If the argument is black culture is seeing a decrease in depth, I'm not saying that I agree, but I'm definitely not saying that I disagree, right? Josh: I'm willing to listen, I'm we'll make an argument. Let's see if we can measure this some way somehow. And there's a good point that would be at least a claim that would that would that we can do something about. It's like I believe spiritual heft meaning actual solid character that you can depend on matters. It's like, excellent. I think we're losing some of that. no. That's an actual problem that we can identify. Let's check on that and see where we are. And if that's true, let's find ways to stop doing that because that also matters to me. Damien: Yeah, absolutely. I think the clue in that was when he juxtaposed Cotillion with a Bob Mitzvah, Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: he gave some reverence to the spiritual aspect of a Bob Mitzvah or a Bob Mitzvah. Josh: But yeah, but Damien: I don't even really know what Cotillion is sound like, Quincey era or something like that. Josh: point. I think they are kind of related, but they're not the exact I I was I was mixing the two up to myself, so never mind. Yes. Damien: because it's just. Josh: Fifteenth and then Catilian is the presentation. Two Wow. Like a debutante ball. Doesn't have to be just a dance, but it usually is. Damien: So just like, yeah, it's a social event. Josh: Right. It's a social event. Damien: And it doesn't really have any spiritual meaning to it, any depth to it. Okay, so you know how to follow the rules. They told you how to follow the rules, but it Josh: Not a lot of that. There's a lot of manners. A lot of stuff about social etiquette. Ballroom dancing. I can follow the rules. Yes. Damien: doesn't have any... There's no moral aspect to it. Okay. Josh: Not a lot of that. Nope. At least that's not what I can see on on Google. That's not that's man. Damien: Okay. And I think that's, yeah. But see, to me, like, if that's an issue, I mean, I do believe that's an issue. I do, because I don't, like, there's a, when he talks about being a good person, like, that, that to me, you got to talk about the morality, the moral issues and the spirituality and the depth to actually be a good person. But are we just raising, like, drones? Are we raising drones to go get, go get the bag? Josh: Right. Damien: Just go get the bag. Come back with the bag. You get the bag. You get the bag. What kind of life are you leading? Josh: Right. Damien: The life with bags. I have bags. I got the bags. know what saying? that's Josh: Well that is true. Damien: not, it's not, I think, I think he's bringing up some good points. I think he would, I think he could go about it a little bit differently, but let me give him a couple more minutes. I'll see if he gets to one more point. I think he might be done. Pong: Kind of raising black people to be esteemed by others, even if it came at the cost of what I would consider a quality of spiritual health. Heft. Heft. Alright, so let me read some comments and I'll let you go. so yeah, the idea that respectability politics is deeply feminized, like intrinsically. is is something that needs to be and even the men who espouse respectability politics are are are not the most reflectively autonomous humans in the world. and I think and I and I think that matters. And I think that matters and I think that separates us. All right, so I'm looking at comments right now. I have a friend who's in Jack and Jill now and I was raised near it and I'm not looking forward to being invited to things they do. Yeah, I I I don't like it. I don't like the aspiration to it. You're not aspiring to anything Meaningful, you're aspiring to a quality of fanciness with the expensive bags and the red shoes. I think it's all just really kind of superficial, wrapped up in professional and and an administrative and educational success. So if that's what success means, if that's what elite means, that's what ambition means, I don't think we should be as ambitious. Like, do you want to be them? I don't. I like some of their stuff sometimes, because you know, when Rich, you have nicer stuff. But don't want to be them. I don't want to be in their mind. That's for certain. And

I you know, I don't want their lives. I don't want their kids. I don't want their parents. I don't yeah, yeah, there's a lot of I I don't like about that life. that's what made yeah the lack of spiritual health I think makes it a pseudo elite a deep pseudo elite. so those are the don't don't confuse that. Don't confuse Cotillion for Bamitzvah. Yeah. Don't don't confuse one for the other. And I think it's important. And so I I believe in cultural activities, especially cultural activities for the youth, but they have to be around a quality of like intellectual and skill development that's not strictly determined by what the market happens to want because the market's white, right? So like, you know, for my kids, we run cross country, we play music at a high level, and we play soccer at a decently high level and we read a lot of books, right? So there's an academic excellence and a sporting excellence that's but none of those are tied to necessarily and and I'll I'm clear to them, none of this is tied to you guys making a lot of money. This is about developing the quality of your character and and your and your mind and your intellect. And sure you'll find out how to be useful after that, but none of this is about having you make a lot of money, because I've just met so many white versions of people with a lot of money, but no real culture. And I'm worried that the Jack and Jill version are black versions of people with a lot of money and tradition that. Is sh come short of culture because it lacks spiritual heft. And I taught I'm not talking about spiritual heft is in necessarily mouthing the words of Christianity. I'm talking about spiritual heft as in actually autonomously thinking about what the conditions of meaning in life entail. And and and not just doing it for the white gays. Or by standards that have not really themselves can be justified. standards that not themselves can be justified. So I'm gonna look at So someone asked what types of coming of age rituals or traditions can ADOS participate in Damien: think I can stop there because I think he just made a good point. Yeah, I actually want to run it back really quick. Pong: I'm sure you'll find out how to be useful after that, but none of this is about having you make a lot of money because I've just met so many white versions of people with a lot of money but no real culture. And I'm worried that the Jack and Jill version are black versions of people with a lot of money and tradition that is sh come short of culture because it lacks spiritual heft. Damien: Like what is the difference between those two groups that he just said, do you, what's the difference? As he's just saying like, hey, black people getting ready to turn into white Americans. Josh: Mm no, I think he's just talking about so I think he's what he's trying to describe is the idea of There are people who want to be upwardly mobile socially, right? They want to go from lower class to middle class, middle class to upper class, whatever. There is an element of Progress or growth or development where you can focus just on the amount of money you make and it's getting just getting out of poverty. And I'm like, all right, cool. I hear you. He wants people to not just focus on making it, which is which is still appropriate, but not just making it, but also Building a real intrinsic character, a long term beneficial culture, a real character focused approach where you mature, develop, whatever you want to call it, to where you can become a good person who does reliable things and or does things reliably r reliably. It's it's it's less about race and more about the fact that When you increase your social standing it it's used to be that w that the reason you knew somebody was a part of a different class is that their behavior, their actions carried them. That was the thing that made you say, like, this person is a high class person because they know etiquette, they know how to honor a promise, they know how to keep their word, they know how to effectively behave in public, be polite, but also like carry themselves and then Do the not just polite society things, but the things that society is built on in the sense of like you're actively able to trust them. And so that that is the that was the character that we that that what was going for. And people who skip that s that step who just say, I just need to get a better job, he's like, Well, there are a lot of people with better jobs. A lot of white. A lot of white people came from poverty and have better jobs, but didn't didn't acknowledge the whole character part. Aren't people I can trust? And so I think there's something to be said for that. Damien: I mean, but the way that he explained it, he said, it's like, yeah, I know a lot of white people who are like this, who Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: make a lot of money and don't have this spiritual heft. Josh: Exactly. Damien: And the way that he put these two groups together, he made it seem as if, see, black people used to just have spiritual heft, but now they're becoming like these white people, you know? Josh: I hear you. Damien: And... This is where I get into it, I'm like, This is a step of people a phase of people in a capitalistic society. This is something that's going to happen. And if you don't. If you don't continue to develop that heft, I don't know why I gotta say this word, you will land in these people who are just like, well, I got the bag and I'm spending money. Because those opportunities are available to you. And if you don't develop that autonomy, that, what did he call it? He called it a... reflective agency or reflective autonomous reflect whatever he called it. That's that next step. See that's that fourth level. That's not the third level anymore. Josh: That's that next step. Mm-hmm. Damien: But a lot of people aren't getting through those gates and people get upset about that. Josh: No. Yes. Some people aren't even being told these gates exist. They're

not even told like, hey, you need to Damien: Right. That's what I'm trying to do, man. Josh: actively develop through the stages. I need you to know Damien: Yay. Josh: what the rules are before you break 'em And some people I need you to be real some of these rules are things that we made up, but sometimes we made it up on purpose. They're for a reason. Damien: Yes, absolutely. I mean, even something like hygiene, man. Like, not everybody treats their teeth the same way in every culture, in every country, and stuff like that. But hygiene, and the reason I'm bringing it up is because that's heavy in Booker T. Washington's book, right? You know, one of his things was like, I told, show black kids how to brush their teeth and take baths, right? But Josh: Yes. Damien: it's a part of, it was a part of, your dignity, your self-esteem, it was a part of that, Josh: Yeah. Damien: you know? And I think what he's missing with all this spiritual heft he has is missing that, missing that this basic part of society is a stepping stone to actually raising people to that Josh: Yeah. Damien: next level, right? And yeah, sometimes it's as simple as teaching somebody how to brush their teeth. Think about when you're dealing with children. You've got to teach them some basic, baseline things, right? Josh: Exactly. Start with what they can do. Mm-hmm. Damien: So they can develop their type of pride in themselves and self-esteem. And then, like you said, but that's my goal is to say, hey, you're talking about the basic landing spot. There are levels beyond that level. You can get there. Let me tell you, if you get, but you gotta go through it. You can't just go around it. Josh: Gotta go through. Can't skip tips. Damien: But people, talk about it as if there's no development to life. Josh: Right. Damien: I listened to the Communist Manifesto. Don't agree with it, but I think what people point to in the Communist Manifesto or in Marx's writing is that level three, like basically he's writing like level three is the ultimate end. Not knowing that there's a level four and maybe a level five, but. And my thing is, no, you all just don't know that there's something beyond there, right? Josh: Right. Damien: And that basic civilized being able to get along together, to cooperate, to just keep things stable. And it may even be the majority of society, but... That's not a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. Now you want to get through it to the goal. Like you said, that's not the goal. You can go through it, but you have to go through it. And even Fromm said in this book, it's like, he wasn't necessarily sure that you had to go through that. But people have posited that you've got to go through that step in life to get to the autonomous, individuated person. Josh: Yes. Damien: and there's no way to get around it. So. Yeah, man. That's all I have for this one. I like it because it's a Black conversation. I'm familiar with a lot of the notes in it, right? I'm concerned with a lot

of the things. But for me, I personally don't feel like my concern for black people as a singular focus really helps them. And what I mean by that is I would love to develop something. that's what I'm trying to do. That's what my goal is, develop things to help people. And then therefore, black people are people too. So they'll be helped as well. You know what saying? Josh: Yeah, yes. We go back to the original part of the thing we share in common ab about humanity and then we can say, All right, now that we have reached this be this this level, this foundation, we can build from here and we can talk about principles that apply to all humans, even black ones. I did not know the Jack and Jill programs were for children and that they had a cotillion that they used to introduce these kids to society as like a way to come of age and I'm like, well yeah. Well n that put this in context for me 'cause like I don't know anything about, you know, these things. Damien: I've heard about it, but I don't really know anything about it, you know. So you know my wife not from this country. Josh: Right. Damien: And so she is sometimes be like, it's interesting how black people, y'all always greet each other everywhere you go. Like y'all don't know each other and all that stuff. And it's almost like being black because it's a secret society in some sense. And there's some little stuff that you know here and there. And it's a product probably of the history, culture and the history in this country. Because it's like, I see you, I see you over there, you know what mean? I understand you move in a certain way and I'm moving a certain way. We gotta move through these spaces or whatever, right? But Josh: Right. Damien: within that, you get this. connectivity to, especially in my upbringing. It's like, it's a little bit of everything in my circles, man. It goes all the way up and it probably could go all the way down too. You know I'm saying? Josh: Right? I mean people are people. They don't all make great choices and we don't we're not all in the same step was stage of the journey. So Damien: Hey, but this is so like, when I think about, know, especially in this area, those elites, I probably know some, especially, you know, growing up in church, right? Prominent church or whatever. So I know some people in there that has connections. Big church in general. the end, big church in general, big black church in general, you already plugged in. because those... For a lot of politics, the black church is how you get the black vote. That's how you get plugged in. You know what I'm saying? Josh: Hundred percent. Yeah. Damien: And so, and a lot of church leaders leverage that. sound ability, what's the word I'm looking for? That leverage that relationship, yeah, that influence, Josh: Influence? Damien: there you go. Leverage that influence, just like a union leader, right, will leverage Josh: Yep, that's true. Damien: that influence. And so, it's almost like, I don't know, man, I don't know if it's a historic thing because pretty much where I live. It's closer to some older areas. And every time you go to an older area, within that little neighborhood, it's always some cathedral or church and some graveyard in the back, right? So Josh: Mm-hmm. Right. Damien: the church is part of the fabric of America from all that I know. And that Josh: Yeah. Damien: could be black, it could be white, it could be whatever. But the whole thing about it is that the church is plugged into all of these facets. And so that connects you to all of these different pockets of people. And so I'm kind of familiar with, I wouldn't say I know it, but I just, I've heard about it. I've seen similar things and all of that type of stuff. That's pretty much what I'm saying. Josh: Okay, cool, cool. I'll let you do your thing. I wanna ask one one more thing after this. Damien: So I don't know if I've ever brought him up in here before. This is the dude, I think his name is Dr. Jerry Ball. He be getting a lot of spin because he actually, this is the dude that Killer Mike was talking about in the freestyle. Josh: Mm. Damien: I think he's local to my area in the D, well, I'm Baltimore, but this is a DMV dude. I think he teaches at Morgan. I might've brought him up before, but he does a lot of, he's a leftist. Definitely a leftist, but he does a lot of internet stuff. think his name is I'll mix what I, well, I think IMW, whatever that is, I'll mix what I like. That's what that means. but just wanna kinda give them a little introduction. Dr. Jerry Ball: How is power created? It's assumed through political organization, movements. And and and you know and and w what South Park said The only true power is violence. Yeah No, honestly that the the the only way that we're gonna get power is we organize ourselves and be and become we used to say ungovernable. You where where we can unionize, where we can strike, where we can it we withhold labor, where we can shut down commerce, where we can whatever. But it's not gonna come through these economic myths and fantasies, and it's not gonna come through the the the praising of of so called success stories where one individual has some has a good how is power created? Damien: That's it. That's it. Any initial thoughts because Josh: I mean, he just has to define his his terms. I think I think he is talking about political power. Do you think that's what he's talking about? Damien: I I don't know if I would give him all of that credit. Josh: Because he's using this word generally and I'm like There is a way, or at least a sense, in which he is right about something. I'm like, so yes, violence is power. Organizing yourself to be able to do things with your physical hands and weapons is is power. Is as is an aspect of power at least, if nothing else. So I'm like, all right. He's like, You can't get there through wishful thinking. Like, true. You can't get there just just by having a lot of money. I'm like Okay, that's

economic power, but not what we're referring to. So what are we referring to? Is are you are you talking about being in control over a certain geographic area? Because you're right. If you are gonna do that, you're gonna need actual physical might. Damien: Yeah, man. So for me, he just said the quiet part out loud. Josh: Yes. He definitely was very clear. Damien: The struggle I have, and I wrote about this, this is in my book, right? Because when I talk about power, I look at it, physical power is the source. I don't disagree with him. But an enlightened view of life doesn't just default to physical power all the time. Josh: Stop there. Damien: And this is why I say violence is the language of the savage. So when I say savage, Savage to me is I'm equating that to an irrational perspective on life. Josh: Okay. Damien: Because you're not putting all the pieces together. Because see, political power is not evaluated within or with economic power or with anything else that derives its value or even intellectual power, right? Anything. Because you just see it is like a level one activity. Like all there is is level one activity. And so I'm judge everybody else by level one activity. And one of the things that's kind of like that I like to bring to the story, because I don't see this happen a lot, is that because I believe I understand the connection of all of these things in life. Like I never say that we are not irrational beings. I'm just saying that we've grown rational capabilities on top of irrational elements, right? But sometimes people tend to forget that because you've grown these rational capabilities that you, they forget that they have irrational elements and they forget that what he's saying, like you said, is true. Okay. Violence is the real true power. But people who have brought their minds further can take their resources and get rid of you because Josh: Right. Damien: you don't have, you're not putting, You think that you can go out there and use muscles and sweat and blood Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: and tears and hammers and they have money and they buy things and pay people because if you really became a real threat, no one's gonna let you become a real threat with that value. Josh: Thing there you go. I think that's always the thing people forget. They're just like, well, there's more of us. We could just use our muscles and get them like they have muscles too. They know that Damien: switches. Josh: that's they knew that was coming. That's where they started as well. They are also human. Damien: It's not even just that though, Josh. They have drones, manless drones that Josh: Yeah. Yes. Damien: they will fly. because people who are using their brains don't come Josh: Yes. Damien: to these conclusions like, yo, we just going to march in there. Yeah, there's no one there. They're just drones with guns. just, you know what saying? Josh: Right. That is the trap. Damien: And so you're going to have to develop the ability to understand that

we're trying to make, it all to fit together, you know? And that's what the moral aspect brings to me. You start to get to a moral, like the guy was saying, I don't even know his name, I should have said his name. To understand that there's a depth to thought, to being a really good person. And you just can't take this... leftist communist approach. they were, it's a bad approach. does, Josh: Yes. Damien: let me, let me not conflate it because people not really going to see the connection of collectivism and what he's saying. aspect of it is is that you're basically what you're saying is if people don't agree with what we want to do, we need to get violent. We're not even going to try to reason with them. So you can't reason, you can't negotiate because this is related to like that talk we saw with the girls because they would they the girls and I don't know that show culture united. They were defending his book for him. I guess against Killer Mike or whatever. And it's like, yo, y'all are not understanding that you've got to get all of this to work. This is a negotiation. We have to use reason, but they're like, no, we just go and get the power. Josh: Right. Damien: And let me take everybody else out of it. If everybody, or if the people that are similar to me could have my mind, it would be, no, you're not because I'm going to kill you. Before you fuck it up, you would die. Josh: Right. Damien: And you wouldn't even, I would see you coming. You don't have the resources. You're not thinking multiple layered steps, planes. You think that muscles and people are going to win. No, you're going to die. That's a sp- Josh: Right, because we know about muscles and people, we have already planned for that contingency. It's not a secret. We also how also have feelings. We also have muscles. We also have Damien: Mm-hmm. Josh: people. We actually have the most people. We also have the most money. Damien: You Josh: And we have thought this we have already spent enough time solving this problem to where it's no Damien: us. Josh: it's no longer a question of, do you know about how fighting works? We do. We actually have a whole plan. Damien: You Josh: Well we don't even fight anymore. We just let the Damien: Wait. Josh: other things do the fighting for us. And we and you don't have those things. They're on my they're on our side. They're not on your side. So if you come to us with your anger and your bodies, we're gonna throw our weapons out in front and they're gonna do the the fighting for us. And you're gonna be real surprised that hey, apparently feeling a righteous anger in your heart wasn't enough. It's crazy. Who would Damien: No, Josh: have thought? Damien: I mean, the best thing that they have on their side is gullibility. The gullibility of, or the naivete, gullibility, or the guilt of middle class, I don't want to make it white culture, it'll just make it racialized. No, it's people like, hey, they wouldn't do that with, they wouldn't damage our lives and... like, ransack all communities would they? Josh: That's not nice. Come on. Damien: They wouldn't do that. And see, I don't have that. See, because I didn't grow up. Like that's what I'm saying. I come from a place where you have your head on a swivel. You understand things are happening. You watch people. You understand things could go bad at a moment's notice. Josh: Right. Damien: and I don't give people that grace to be like, no, they're just doing, let me turn my back and not pay attention. No, I'm watching you. I'm watching you right now, all the time. Josh: Hmm. Damien: You know what saying? Josh: There you go. That's a whole lifetime of instincts. It's like I'm gonna stay hungry, I'm gonna stay aware, and I'm not gonna pretend that any everybody else is all out for my good. Maybe they're out for their good. That's probably that's probably better why. Damien: And the bad thing about it is for me just the part that worries me the worst is that. with irrational, irrationality, what I would call sometimes irrational people, it's not so much that they're bad, it's that They don't know the difference between good and bad, right? So they could Josh: Right. Damien: literally be somebody who didn't mean to do something, but they did it. Josh: Right. I don't intend to. Damien: I didn't know that when I was walking in the store with my friends with the gun that somebody would die. I didn't know that the robbery was going to end in two murders. I didn't know that getting in the car, you know, with a bag full of guns in the trunk was going to get us all locked up or lead to a problem. You know, it's a lot I didn't know. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Ignorance kills. And there are some people who refuse to learn. Damien: Yeah, yeah. it's like a perpetual, it's the perpetual child mind thing, man. And it's just not getting over the hump. But I also, think part of it is the reason for people not getting over the hump because no one is giving the picture as steps and levels. Nobody's saying that, hey, these are the places that you would go through. All they do is say, this happened to me, that happened to me, this happened to me. No, see, we move through these levels and then we get to this level and see, then we go to this level and see, then you won't, to me and my mind, I'm thinking like, if somebody would explain it to you like that, you won't have to go through the anxiety of like, hey, how the hell do I know where I'm going? No, this is where you're going. You're going here, see? Josh: Right. Damien: You're at this place right now, see? That this is the next level. And at least if you just make that story clear. I don't expect everybody to take that path, but at least you could be aware. That's all I'm saying. Josh: Right. Yeah, I mean that's huge. But you have to have people who actually know and then they can find people who actually can communicate these lessons in a real clear way. I think that's why storytelling really matters. Our minds are

meaning making machines. The better we can tell the stories that actively promote growth, development, just even general guidance and instruction is helpful. Just say like this is where we're going, this is why we're going here. We've tried it other ways, other ways didn't work. But there are real risks out here that you aren't experiencing right now because other people went through and created these safe spaces for you. This is your safe space right now because we paid this price. We don't want you to pay Damien: Right. Josh: the price again because you are now the ones who have to carry this forward. It's now your job to make sure we maintain things like freedom and this democracy. This whole process we have of society. You're gonna relate relate to people with your words and you're gonna have to do the things, do the actions that got us here. And then take take it to the next step. Damien: Yeah, because it's equity. Equity has been built and people think that, I could just take this money out and spend it. It's like, whoa, Josh: Ha ha ha. Damien: no. I mean, I understand that's what people want, but yeah, the equity is what gives you the stability and the trust to do what we can do. Yeah, that's all I have for that. He said the choir part, that's what I'm saying, man. Violence is the language of the savage. It may sound insulting to people, man, but I'm telling you, that's all they got. That's all you can get to. It's like, hey, we gonna go ride. We gonna ride. Josh: I mean, it's where they start. It's their whole well, it is the majority of what they think. I'm like, well that's clearly not that is a terrible ending place but for some people that's where they end too. Damien: And once again, it's not even that he's educated. Well, he's a Josh: Yeah. Damien: doctor and doctor of journalism. I'm not saying that all people are saying, we gotta go commit violence. Josh: Right. Damien: I'm saying that if you don't have the tools of reason. ain't nothing else going, if you want action and you're not gonna reason with someone. Josh: Right. It's not a whole lot of avenues left open. Damien: Nothing left. Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: I know you said one thing, but let me, I think I probably said this before, but I want to just read this because I think it's just relevant to this. My reading of Jung sometimes is a little different than a lot of other people's. Well, I'm probably, I'm taking it little farther than it actually was presented, but that's just what I'm saying. Jung is talking about introverted or irrational introverts in this part, right? And I'm focusing in on the irrational aspect of it. The line is, the irrational introverted types are certainly no teachers of a more perfect humanity. They lack reason and the ethics of reason. And that's exactly what I mean. For him to categorize a group, his type, like that, to say like, Josh: Right. Damien: they lack reason and the ethics, reason is what brings us the ethics. And that's what I'm saying. It's

like, they... It's an immoral perspective because you can't have a moral perspective that respect individuals without reason. So if you Josh: Right. Damien: don't have reason, you can't get ethics of reason. You're just telling me how you feel things should happen and you feel strongly about it. Got it. Josh: Right. I mean they don't have the standards, so there's no way they can know. Damien: Well, the standard is how they feel about it. That's the standard. Josh: Yes, there we go. man. Damien: nah, but I don't hear nothing else. You said you, was Josh: Yeah. Damien: something else. Josh: Yeah, you ever seen the movie Talk to Me? Damien: Yo, man, I love that movie. Which one though? Josh: Yo. Damien: It's more than one. The right radio dude. Yeah, I love that movie. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. You heard of Peter Pete Green? You know you n you k you know about Pete Town and r rest of that? Damien: I mean, heard, I mean, I learned about it from the movie, but I love that movie. Josh: okay. Yeah, that was a really good movie. I appreciated the story. I appreciated the writing. I appreciated the dialogue. There were a lot of really cool you know, virtues he was putting out there. And like he was very honest, very authentic. He's like, Hey, I'm a con, I'm a thief, I've done bad things, but I'm letting you know. Don't burn our city down. You're doing a bad job. It's not what this is not what MLK would have wanted. You Damien: Right. Josh: know, I'm like Thank you. Thank you, someone. You are actively going out of your way to not hide all the things that are wrong, but actively saying, you know, virtue exists. I may not be the most virtuous person, but you know, do more virtue please. Do it. I believe in you. You should do it. You have the UK capability. You're not doing it right now. Damien: I mean, yeah, man. that's not the... These examples... Like, I'm thinking, when you say that I'm thinking about James Brown, I don't know if it was the same situ... Exact same... was? Okay. Josh: Yeah, yeah. Damien: And when he was like, okay, man, y'all chill out, chill out, cool out or whatever he was saying. Yeah. Josh: Right. He's like, everybody calm down. It's like, don't tell a group of people who about the right to calm down. Bad choice. No, but he but anyway, when he Damien: Yeah. Josh: when when he got out there, he was able to speak to people who was like, I understand you're mad, I understand bad things are happening, but this isn't who we are. Let's you know focus Damien: Yeah. Josh: on it. Damien: And see, like, that's another example of, me, like, the layers of society. Because I'm not necessarily that person, but I respect that part of the game, right? I'm the long-term infrastructure thinker, how you lay it down, how you lay down a long-term, like, 50, it's not even a 50-year plan. See, like, the moral aspect to me is not a... a termed plan, like these aspects are eternal, right? The eternal aspects of it. Josh: Right. Principle. Damien: yeah, but to me that's what tempers in kind of... molds a society into a certain, certain. It's not a, I guess I could call it a character, it's a certain, yeah, I guess it's a character, collective character, I guess I could call it, right? But those are two different things. Like one is a right now thing, and another one is an overall thing. It's almost the difference between a football GM and a football coach, right? One person is making sure that the... the enterprise and the program continues on in a nice way to keep yourself going. Whereas though the other ones like, hey, we gotta get this play in right now. We gotta win this game right now today. Josh: Right. Yeah, it's more strategic versus a tactical kind of approach. Damien: Yeah, exactly. both are important. And that reminds me of something that I remember hearing in Kevin Samuels, where he, one of his criticisms with women is that, like y'all don't, y'all not cooperative. Whereas though a man is cooperative with another man, he has a respect for what the other man does. You know, it's, and he doesn't just be like, man, you just football coach or whatever, or you just the GM all the time. They're like, hey, you got a job over there. And I got a job over here and when we work together, we get this thing done. And so I have a Josh: Right. Damien: respect for you in this way. Whereas though, some people don't, they're more or less like, you don't do what I do. So you're bad. If everybody did the same thing, that wouldn't Josh: Right. Damien: make any sense. So what are we talking about? Josh: Makes sense. like that similarity isn't a virtue. Especially when we're both trying to solve a different problem. Damien: I mean, but you do find these people, you find us in work, Josh: Yes. Damien: Like, it's like, yo, if you're doing that, why do I need to do it too? Josh: Right. Damien: I should not be doing something else. Why are we wasting two or three people on the same thing that can be done by one person? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Just like. Josh: And it's not helping us. We are actively missing something now. Now there's a bunch of Damien: Right. Josh: now this is poor resource management. We're all over here. We need to have everybody in their position. Damien: But for whatever reason, just, it's people are so quick to want other people to do things the way that they do things. And some people don't know how to rein it in. in. even with me, I make a lot of models, man. I'm like, I'm like, I guess I'm like a model expert in my field or whatever. in the finance field. I'm not an IT guy, but I do a lot of IT things in finance world. And when I see people, other people working in Excel and some of the things that they do, I sometimes just have to leave the room, right? Because what it comes down to for me is, am I going to be left cleaning up this mess or not? Because Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: If I'm gonna be left cleaning up the mess, we're gonna have to change this. And that's what the conversation then becomes. I'm not going to pick that shit up off the floor if it breaks. You understand? Josh: Right. When this breaks, I'm not gonna be here for this. Damien: No, I'm not. But if it's all on them, I might say, there's a better way. Well, I wanna say there's a better way. Hey, you could do things like this if they don't take it. I'm like, all right, I gotta go. Because I can't physically watch them do the thing because, Josh: Right. It's just painful now. Damien: yeah, it's painful. And if I sit there, I know me, I'm just, man, you could just do this. Because I'm gonna start saying, this is how Josh: Yeah. Damien: you can do the thing. But my respect, my anger and respect for people to do their own thing just makes me say, hey, I'll be back. back. I'll see you later. Josh: Mm-hmm. Damien: Oops. Josh: Yes. Damien: Yeah. But yeah, that's pretty much my existence. Yeah, man. I don't have anything else. So cool man. Appreciate it. Catch you next time. All right Josh: All right. Do it again. Take care. Damien: man, peace.