Re-Covering a Mutual Language: Bukharan Jews in Austria의 전체 녹취록

alone with your story. Oh, wow. Right. 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:52.019 That right there, that profound moment of a shattered 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.219 boundary, that is the beating heart of the research 00:01:54.219 --> 00:01:56.659 we are diving into today. I love that. Yeah. 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.599 Anthropologist Arianne Sajid captured this in 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:01.739 her incredible work. It was published in History 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:04.599 and Anthropology, and it's titled Recovering 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.879 a Mutual Language. The idea that two groups of 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.939 people could sit down, assuming they're total 00:02:10.939 --> 00:02:12.939 strangers, only to realize they share a mother 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:17.159 tongue. It's just staggering to me. It really 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.360 is. And Sajid's research, it uses this specific 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.759 encounter in Vienna to like. pry open a much 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.560 larger global conversation. Yes. Because today, 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.240 our mission for this Deep Dive is to look at 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.159 how memory, language, and shared culture between 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.879 Jews and Muslims have been forgotten. Forgotten 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.560 and actively rewritten. Right. Actively and sometimes 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:40.460 aggressively rewritten. Yeah. And how, against 00:02:40.460 --> 00:02:43.139 all odds, recovering that shared history might 00:02:43.139 --> 00:02:45.319 actually be the secret key to rebuilding trust 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.340 today. The central thread we're pulling on here 00:02:48.340 --> 00:02:50.740 is that the intense estrangement between Jews 00:02:50.740 --> 00:02:53.139 and Muslims. Right. This rigid boundary that 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:55.460 feels so permanent and so ancient to us right 00:02:55.460 --> 00:02:58.020 now. It's actually not the natural state of history. 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.280 Which is wild to think about. It really is. It 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.879 is in many ways a recently manufactured reality. 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.789 Yeah. By tracing the epic multi -generational 00:03:06.789 --> 00:03:09.669 journey of Bukharan Jews, right, from the Emirate 00:03:09.669 --> 00:03:12.870 of Bukhara in Central Asia all the way to modern 00:03:12.870 --> 00:03:16.590 day Austria, we get a front row seat to the mechanics 00:03:16.590 --> 00:03:19.389 of human identity. To see how it's built. Exactly. 00:03:19.389 --> 00:03:22.430 We see exactly how identities shift, how they 00:03:22.430 --> 00:03:25.810 harden, and how they mutate under extreme political 00:03:25.810 --> 00:03:28.090 and social pressure. It kind of makes you wonder 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:29.710 about your own family history, doesn't it? Oh, 00:03:29.710 --> 00:03:31.710 absolutely. I mean, for you listening right now, 00:03:31.810 --> 00:03:34.879 think about it. How many of the deeply

held traditions 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.199 that you consider your core identity, the things 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.580 that make you you, how many of them are actually 00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:44.060 just recent survival tactics? That's a great 00:03:44.060 --> 00:03:46.139 question. Right. Things your grandparents or 00:03:46.139 --> 00:03:48.139 great -grandparents invented or maybe adapted 00:03:48.139 --> 00:03:50.840 just to survive in a brand new environment. It's 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:53.319 a slightly unsettling thought, honestly. It is, 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:55.500 but it's crucial for understanding Karen and 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:58.219 Shirin in that room. Definitely. So, okay, let's 00:03:58.219 --> 00:03:59.819 unpack this. I want to pull apart this poetry 00:03:59.819 --> 00:04:02.439 room experiment a little more. Because the implications 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.419 of Karen not recognizing the origins of her own 00:04:05.419 --> 00:04:08.520 language are just fascinating to me. Yeah, let's 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.159 get into it. Like, how does an entire community... 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.300 Just forget where its mother tongue comes from. 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.459 It sounds impossible. Right. Because Karen literally 00:04:16.459 --> 00:04:19.720 had never heard Tajik or Afghan Persian spoken 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.379 in a way that connected the dots for her. No, 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:25.019 she hadn't. She just thought, you know, this 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:27.540 is Bukhari. This is what my Jewish family speaks. 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.560 End of story. To understand the mechanics of 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.920 that kind of cultural amnesia and honestly, the 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.319 sheer speed at which it happens. Because it was 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:39.350 fast. Extremely fast. We have to look at the 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:42.009 massive disruptions these communities faced over 00:04:42.009 --> 00:04:44.970 just two generations. You have to remember, these 00:04:44.970 --> 00:04:47.290 are two communities that shared a homeland, a 00:04:47.290 --> 00:04:50.009 rich literature, and a language for centuries 00:04:50.009 --> 00:04:52.449 in Central Asia. Centuries of shared history. 00:04:52.589 --> 00:04:56.009 Exactly. But then you introduce the Soviet era. 00:04:56.370 --> 00:04:59.290 Oh, right. Yeah, during the 20th century, the 00:04:59.290 --> 00:05:02.149 indigenous languages of Central Asian Jews were 00:05:02.149 --> 00:05:04.670 systematically displaced by Russian. Okay, so 00:05:04.670 --> 00:05:07.339 the state steps in. Right. The Soviet machine 00:05:07.339 --> 00:05:09.920 aggressively promoted Russian as the language 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.699 of upward mobility. It was the language of the 00:05:12.699 --> 00:05:15.639 intelligentsia, the language of education and 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.060 of public life. Right. So the mother tongue gets 00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:20.959 basically Pushed out of the public square and 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.259 retreats into the home. Exactly. Bukhari was 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:25.680 relegated entirely to the private sphere. Wow. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.060 It became the language spoken by the grandmothers 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:30.199 in the kitchen. Yeah. It was no longer the language 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.079 of commerce or literature or the streets. That 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.860 makes so much sense. And then the second massive 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:40.899 disruption hits. Which is? Migration. When these 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:43.279 Bukharan Jewish families eventually migrated 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.720 out of the Soviet Union to places like Austria 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.839 or Israel, that dominant Russian language was 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.120 replaced yet again. Like German or Hebrew, I'm 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.660 guessing. Exactly. This time by German or Hebrew. 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.439 So within a very short, volatile time frame, 00:05:57.639 --> 00:05:59.980 the linguistic bridge to their Muslim neighbors 00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:02.420 was utterly dismantled. Like it was just bulldozed 00:06:02.420 --> 00:06:05.079 over. Pretty much. The language became an isolated 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:08.170 relic. The broader context of its shared nature 00:06:08.170 --> 00:06:10.089 simply vanished from the community's collective 00:06:10.089 --> 00:06:12.529 memory. Man, I'm trying to picture what that 00:06:12.529 --> 00:06:15.589 feels like on an individual level. It's hard 00:06:15.589 --> 00:06:19.689 to grasp. It's almost like finding a locked, 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:22.470 dusty trunk in your attic. Okay, I like this. 00:06:22.750 --> 00:06:24.550 You know it belonged to your great -grandparents, 00:06:24.649 --> 00:06:27.509 right? But you assume the key was lost forever. 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:30.129 Right. So you just accept that whatever's inside 00:06:30.129 --> 00:06:32.730 is entirely private, maybe a little mysterious. 00:06:33.550 --> 00:06:36.529 but ultimately yours alone. Yeah. And then a 00:06:36.529 --> 00:06:39.509 complete stranger walks into your house holding 00:06:39.509 --> 00:06:43.019 the exact spare key. on their keychain oh that's 00:06:43.019 --> 00:06:44.800 a brilliant way to look at it and the key fits 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.100 perfectly yes and the shock isn't just that the 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:50.560 key fits it's the sudden realization that the 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.939 trunk didn't just contain isolated jewish artifacts 00:06:52.939 --> 00:06:55.500 wait what did it contain the trunk contained 00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:59.060 a shared world oh wow it fundamentally rewrites 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:01.339 your understanding of what belongs to you and 00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:03.199 who you were actually connected to that gives 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.899 me chills and to really grasp the magnitude of

00:07:05.899 --> 00:07:07.959 what was locked inside that trunk we have to 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:09.759 travel back to the world where that language 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:12.079 was originally spoken Okay, where are we going? 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.459 Back to where that shared culture was forged. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.079 We need to go back to the Emirate of Bukhara. 00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:20.300 Yes. I love diving into this part of the history 00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:22.420 because it completely shatters the assumptions 00:07:22.420 --> 00:07:25.319 a lot of people hold today. We're traveling back 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:30.980 roughly between 1785 and 1920. And the Bukharan 00:07:30.980 --> 00:07:34.459 Emirate... was a place where Jews held real standing 00:07:34.459 --> 00:07:38.319 and cultural influence. Very true. Saged's research 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.629 brings up a fascinating historical figure. Levi 00:07:41.629 --> 00:07:44.589 Babakhanov. Yes, Babakhanov. He was a highly 00:07:44.589 --> 00:07:47.470 celebrated Jewish court musician who performed 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:50.370 for the last emir of Bukhara. He was incredibly 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:53.009 famous in that region. And to give you listening 00:07:53.009 --> 00:07:55.449 a real sense of the historical reality of this 00:07:55.449 --> 00:07:58.089 time, there's this incredible artifact from the 00:07:58.089 --> 00:08:00.410 19th century. Oh, the letter. The letter. It's 00:08:00.410 --> 00:08:02.370 written by Rabbi Pinches, who is actually an 00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:05.579 ancestor of that same famous... musician Babakhanov. 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:08.459 The context of this letter is so telling. It's 00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:10.680 at the stage for us. So Rabbi Pinchas is writing 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:13.399 to Maurice de Hirsch. Okay. De Hirsch was a very 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.100 wealthy, very famous European Ashkenazi Jewish 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:21.100 philanthropist. Like mega wealthy. Oh, absolutely. 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:25.279 And de Hirsch had essentially heard about these, 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.600 quote unquote, exotic Jews living out in Central 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:30.899 Asia. Right, out in the East. And he offered 00:08:30.899 --> 00:08:34.779 them a massive sum of money. We are talking 20 00:08:34.779 --> 00:08:38.039 million rubles to support their community. 20 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.220 million rubles. A fortune. Which, I mean, on 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:43.159 the surface, that sounds incredibly generous. 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:45.879 Right. But it was entirely based on a projection. 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.899 Completely. DeHersch and the European Jewish 00:08:48.899 --> 00:08:51.700 establishment, they basically assumed that because 00:08:51.700 --> 00:08:54.139 the Bukharan Jews were living in a Muslim -majority 00:08:54.139 --> 00:08:56.919 land, they must be destitute. Ah, I see. They 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:58.700 assumed they were oppressed and in desperate 00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:01.000 need of European salvation. They were projecting 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.409 their own narrative. Exactly. They were projecting 00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:06.529 a very European narrative of Jewish persecution 00:09:06.529 --> 00:09:09.690 onto a Central Asian reality. And that's what 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:12.289 makes Rabbi Pinch's response so amazing. It's 00:09:12.289 --> 00:09:14.490 iconic. He writes back and essentially says, 00:09:14.690 --> 00:09:17.269 thank you, but absolutely not. We don't need 00:09:17.269 --> 00:09:20.490 your money. Yeah, he turns down 20 million rubles. 00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:22.990 But the phrasing he uses is what really stops 00:09:22.990 --> 00:09:25.710 you in your tracks. Oh, read the quote. He writes 00:09:25.710 --> 00:09:28.850 that the Jewish community in Bukhara lives peacefully, 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:31.769 quote, under the wings of the kingdom of Ishmael. 00:09:32.009 --> 00:09:34.610 the kings of grace and mercy, lovers of Israel. 00:09:34.809 --> 00:09:38.110 It's just so powerful. He explicitly states that 00:09:38.110 --> 00:09:40.450 they are loyal servants to their king, living 00:09:40.450 --> 00:09:43.909 in tranquility. He flat out refuses the European 00:09:43.909 --> 00:09:46.690 money because they simply do not fit the narrative 00:09:46.690 --> 00:09:49.230 of the oppressed victim that Dahersh is trying 00:09:49.230 --> 00:09:51.570 to cast them in. That letter is a historical 00:09:51.570 --> 00:09:54.700 sledgehammer. Seriously. It shatters the retroactive 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.820 modern assumption that Jews in Muslim majority 00:09:57.820 --> 00:10:00.919 lands were constantly living in a state of terrified 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.019 subjugation. Right. The historical reality of 00:10:04.019 --> 00:10:07.419 coexistence in the Emirate was deeply, inextricably 00:10:07.419 --> 00:10:09.620 intertwined. Give me an example of that. Well, 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:12.559 take the music, for example. OK. Jewish and Muslim 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:15.399 musicians like Bob Akunov, they didn't just perform 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.679 in separate spheres. Right. They weren't segregated. 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.419 No, they performed together at the court. They 00:10:20.419 --> 00:10:23.220 actively developed the classical. music tradition 00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:26.059 of the entire region, which is known as Shashmakam, 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.279 together. Together. It was a joint cultural enterprise. 00:10:29.659 --> 00:10:32.440 And it went beyond just art, right? It was woven 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.059 into the fabric of daily life. Absolutely. The 00:10:35.059 --> 00:10:37.700 boundary between communities in the Emirate, 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:40.639 it ran along lines of profession or, you know, 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:43.019 which specific town you were from. Or your family 00:10:43.019 --> 00:10:45.539 lineage,

maybe. Exactly. Family lineage. It did 00:10:45.539 --> 00:10:48.299 not run along an absolute hardline religious 00:10:48.299 --> 00:10:51.600 divide. Wow. Even their visual identity was shared. 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.259 Really? Their clothes? Yeah. Their traditional 00:10:54.259 --> 00:10:57.179 garments were nearly identical. That's fascinating. 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:00.720 A Jewish rabbi's white velvet coat with... Like 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.059 intricate silk embroidery looked almost exactly 00:11:04.059 --> 00:11:06.940 like a Bukharin Muslim's traditional dress. No 00:11:06.940 --> 00:11:10.080 way. Yes. They occupied the same aesthetic and 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.279 cultural universe. But OK, this is where the 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.039 narrative takes a really sharp, almost jarring 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.580 turn. Here comes the twist. Right. Because Sajed 00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:19.320 doesn't just look at the historical archives. 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:21.379 You know, she interviews people today. Yeah. 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.700 And the graphic work. She speaks with a modern 00:11:23.700 --> 00:11:26.659 day Bukharin rabbi living in Vienna. She gives 00:11:26.659 --> 00:11:29.539 him the pseudonym Rabbi Aaron. OK. And Rabbi 00:11:29.539 --> 00:11:32.309 Aaron. Aharon tells the story of Levi Babakhanov, 00:11:32.490 --> 00:11:35.029 that famous court musician we just talked about. 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:38.350 But he tells it completely differently than the 00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:41.149 historical and record suggests. Yes. The reiteration 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.429 is stark. Here's where it gets really interesting. 00:11:43.629 --> 00:11:47.529 Go for it. Rabbi Aharon layers on this heavy 00:11:47.529 --> 00:11:51.110 narrative of coercion. Coercion. Yeah. He claims 00:11:51.110 --> 00:11:53.509 the emir forced the musician to come play for 00:11:53.509 --> 00:11:56.929 him on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish high holiday. 00:11:57.190 --> 00:12:00.110 Wow. He emphasizes that the Jews were totally 00:12:00.110 --> 00:12:02.690 separate from the Muslims, explicitly stating 00:12:02.690 --> 00:12:05.590 to the interviewer, of course, there was no assimilation. 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.539 Shader very carefully points out that this idea 00:12:08.539 --> 00:12:11.620 of coercion, framing the act of playing for the 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:15.039 emir on a holiday as a forced oppressive demand 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:17.679 rather than, you know, a massive cultural honor. 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.259 Yeah. That is a distinctly modern interpretation 00:12:20.259 --> 00:12:22.460 layered onto the past. He's rewriting it. Yes. 00:12:22.539 --> 00:12:24.960 The modern rabbi is taking a documented history 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.299 of deep integration, shared music and mutual 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:29.659 respect, and he is actively tweaking it. Well, 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:32.720 why? He is retrofitting the story to align with

00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.610 the contemporary framework where Jewish. and 00:12:35.610 --> 00:12:37.610 Muslim identities must always be fundamentally 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:41.230 opposed and antagonistic. I am just, I'm trying 00:12:41.230 --> 00:12:42.809 to wrap my head around the motivation there. 00:12:42.950 --> 00:12:45.470 It's complex. Because if the historical record, 00:12:45.649 --> 00:12:48.809 like Rabbi Pinch's own letter refusing millions 00:12:48.809 --> 00:12:51.970 of rubles because life was so peaceful, if that 00:12:51.970 --> 00:12:56.009 shows this beautiful integration, why is a modern 00:12:56.009 --> 00:12:59.750 rabbi tweaking the story to make it sound oppressive? 00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:03.960 Wow. It feels like... Taking a beautifully blended 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.820 watercolor painting, right, where all the colors 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:08.600 bleed into one another. I like this analogy. 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:11.059 And taking a thick black Sharpie to draw hard 00:13:11.059 --> 00:13:14.000 lines between the colors. Yes. Why ruin the watercolor? 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.259 Why does Rabbi Aaron feel such an urgent need 00:13:17.259 --> 00:13:20.220 for those hard Sharpie lines today? Because the 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:22.539 gallery he is trying to hang that painting in 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:26.220 today only accepts line art. Oh, wow. The audience 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:28.720 has changed and the rules of survival have changed. 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.659 Okay, unpack that for me. To understand why Rabbi 00:13:31.659 --> 00:13:33.879 Aaron feels the need to draw their sharpie lines, 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.100 to enforce a retroactive narrative of strict 00:13:36.100 --> 00:13:39.679 separation, we have to look at the massive trauma 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.179 of migration. We have to look at what happened 00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:44.940 to these Central Asian Jews when they left that 00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:48.559 integrated watercolor world of Gukhara, navigated 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:51.100 the Soviet system, and eventually arrived in 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:54.240 Europe. This brings us squarely into the 1970s. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440 Exactly. The 1970s. This is such a crucial pivot 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.659 point. It really is. Because the Soviet Union 00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:02.259 had become an increasingly difficult and restrictive 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:05.320 place to be Jewish. Very much so. So many Bukharin 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.419 Jews managed to secure exit visas, mostly with 00:14:08.419 --> 00:14:10.179 the stated intention of going to Israel. Right. 00:14:10.299 --> 00:14:13.659 But the geopolitics of migration are messy. Always. 00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:16.809 Their route takes them through Vienna, Austria. 00:14:17.029 --> 00:14:19.629 A major transit hub. Vienna was this transit 00:14:19.629 --> 00:14:22.070 hub run by the Hebrew Immigration Aid Society, 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:25.669 or HIAS. Right, HIAS. But for many families, 00:14:25.789 --> 00:14:28.830 the plan kind of derails. Yeah, they hit a wall. 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:31.700 They arrive in Vienna. Take stock of the situation 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:34.440 and decide that Israel isn't the right fit for 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.279 them, maybe due to fear of the ongoing conflicts 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.200 there or just economic uncertainty. Right. It 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.620 was a very tense time. But the Soviet authorities 00:14:42.620 --> 00:14:44.899 obviously won't let them return. No, going back. 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:48.080 So they become stuck. They are stranded in Vienna. 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.220 Stranded. And this is where a profound. agonizing 00:14:52.220 --> 00:14:54.820 identity crisis begins. And it's an identity 00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:57.620 crisis forged in the fires of double discrimination. 00:14:57.679 --> 00:14:59.799 Double discrimination, right. Because they arrive 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.519 in Vienna and are immediately hit from two sides. 00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.759 The first side being the host country. Yes. First, 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.559 you have the Austrian Majority Society. We have 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:10.919 to look at the labor dynamics of Austria in the 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.460 1970s. The country had brought in many Turkish 00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:19.220 guest workers to handle low wage manual labor. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.080 Right. because Bukharan Jews looked Middle Eastern 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.840 or Central Asian and they didn't speak German. 00:15:25.129 --> 00:15:27.470 Oh, I see where this is going. Austrians on the 00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:30.129 street often mistook them for Turkish laborers. 00:15:30.169 --> 00:15:32.549 That is just awful. As a result, they were subjected 00:15:32.549 --> 00:15:35.210 to the exact same xenophobia, racism and social 00:15:35.210 --> 00:15:37.529 exclusion that the Turkish Muslim immigrants 00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:40.570 faced. So they are receiving hostility from the 00:15:40.570 --> 00:15:42.909 host nation based on a visual misidentification. 00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:46.269 Yes. But the deeper, much more intimate wound 00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:48.950 came from within the Jewish community itself. 00:15:49.230 --> 00:15:51.629 This part is just heartbreaking. It really is. 00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:55.399 The established Ashkenazi. Jewish community in 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:59.200 Vienna, the European Jews who had their own long, 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:03.120 complex history in the city, they completely 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.580 rejected. Completely. They look at these Central 00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:07.679 Asian families arriving with their different 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.299 customs, their different language, their different 00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:12.259 style of dress, and they simply didn't see them 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:16.019 as real

Jews. Wow. The prejudice was visceral. 00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:19.080 Some Ashkenazim even mock them with terrible 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.740 racial slurs. Oh, God. The research notes that 00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:25.259 Bukharan women were sometimes called Schwarzer. 00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:28.600 Yeah. Which is a derogatory German term that 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:32.120 essentially translates to blackie. It's devastating. 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.360 You have to imagine the intense psychological 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.179 toll this takes. I can't even imagine. You flee 00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:39.919 the oppressive regime of the Soviet Union. You 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:42.940 end up stranded in a cold foreign city where 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:45.019 the local population resents you because they 00:16:45.019 --> 00:16:47.399 think you are a Muslim immigrant. And the local 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.039 Jewish community, the people who are supposed 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.059 to be your safety net. Your brothers and sisters. 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.480 Exactly. They reject you because you don't fit 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.080 their European template of what a Jew looks and 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.250 acts like. It's a complete isolation. They were 00:16:58.250 --> 00:17:00.490 marginalized in community meetings, their voices 00:17:00.490 --> 00:17:02.690 were ignored, and they were cut off from the 00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:04.490 social capital of the established community. 00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:07.190 I'm trying to put myself in their shoes in 1970s 00:17:07.190 --> 00:17:09.589 Vienna. Yeah, put yourself there. You're rejected 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:12.130 by the locals. You're mocked by the established 00:17:12.130 --> 00:17:15.950 Jewish community. You must feel entirely adrift. 00:17:16.349 --> 00:17:18.910 Desperate, even. You'd probably grasp at any 00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:21.490 institution that offered you a life raft. Exactly. 00:17:21.650 --> 00:17:23.890 Even if it meant changing how you practiced your 00:17:23.890 --> 00:17:27.009 own faith just to prove you belonged. Exactly. 00:17:27.609 --> 00:17:30.250 Survival in a diaspora community often requires 00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:33.069 adapting to the dominant culture's metrics of 00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:36.490 authenticity. Wow. Metrics of authenticity. Yeah. 00:17:36.589 --> 00:17:38.769 Now let's look at what that European template 00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:42.490 actually was. Okay. In Vienna, Jewish identity 00:17:42.490 --> 00:17:44.549 was largely defined by European institutional 00:17:44.549 --> 00:17:47.930 frameworks. And increasingly for those seeking 00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:50.529 validation from the establishment, by strict 00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:53.960 adherence to religious law, or halakha, Which 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.440 was a massive culture clash because that was 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.700 totally different from how Bukharan Jews experienced 00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:02.420 their Jewishness back in the Soviet Union. Radically 00:18:02.420 --> 00:18:05.220 different. Back in Central Asia, being Jewish 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.039 was almost an ethnicity, a deeply ingrained cultural 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.259 rhythm. Right. It was tied to local traditions. 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.640 Yeah. It was the specific foods your grandmother 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.599 cooked. The smells, the tastes. Exactly. It was 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:17.740 the familial warmth of gathering for Shabbat. 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.400 It was even celebrating secular holidays like 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.420 Novi Gad, the Soviet New Year, with your community. 00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:26.759 Yeah. It wasn't about sitting in a yeshiva studying 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:31.000 strict legalistic religious texts or debating 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:33.400 the minutia of rabbinic law. And there's historical 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.839 reason for that. Tell me. Under decades of Soviet 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.200 rule. formal religious education and the training 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.680 of rabbis had been largely suppressed. Ah, of 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.160 course. So their Jewishness had to become deeply 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.640 cultural, deeply local, and implicitly understood 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:52.259 within the family unit just to survive the Soviet 00:18:52.259 --> 00:18:55.019 era. It was lived, not studied. Beautifully put. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.160 But when they got to Vienna, that beautiful cultural 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.539 Jewishness wasn't recognized as valid. It wasn't 00:19:01.539 --> 00:19:04.220 enough. It wasn't enough. The pressure to be 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:07.400 accepted as real Jews by the European Ashkenazi 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.640 establishment forced Bukharans to adapt. Because 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.500 they had to. Right. Sociologists have long noted 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.640 that marginalized groups will often adopt the 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.299 dominant group's metrics of authenticity in order 00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:21.859 to survive. Survive and, like, gain access to 00:19:21.859 --> 00:19:24.500 vital resources. Precisely. Like kosher food, 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.369 religious schooling for their children. Basic 00:19:27.369 --> 00:19:30.670 community support. Yeah. For the Bukharans, survival 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:34.130 meant adopting a more legalistic, bounded, and 00:19:34.130 --> 00:19:36.650 strictly orthodox version of Judaism that the 00:19:36.650 --> 00:19:39.049 Europeans would finally recognize and respect. 00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:41.630 But wait, that adaptation doesn't happen in a 00:19:41.630 --> 00:19:44.150 vacuum. No, it doesn't. You don't just wake up 00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:46.309 one morning in Vienna, realize the Ashkenazim 00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:48.470 are judging you, and suddenly know an entirely 00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:50.670

different framework of strict religious law. 00:19:50.970 --> 00:19:53.089 You need teachers. Someone has to teach you. 00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:55.269 Someone has to build the infrastructure for that 00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:57.789 new identity. That is exactly where the institutional 00:19:57.789 --> 00:20:01.109 forces step in. Enter the institutions. Nature 00:20:01.109 --> 00:20:05.150 abhors a vacuum and identity in diaspora is no 00:20:05.150 --> 00:20:08.130 different. Into this void of rejection, confusion 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:11.990 and longing for belonging stepped powerful, globally 00:20:11.990 --> 00:20:14.990 organized religious movements. OK, who are we 00:20:14.990 --> 00:20:17.089 talking about? These institutions fundamentally 00:20:17.089 --> 00:20:21.170 reshaped Mizrahi and Sephardic identity. Meaning 00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:23.910 Jews from the Middle East, North Africa and Central 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:26.269 Asia. Correct. And not just in Vienna, but worldwide. 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.940 So Sajid's research points to two major players 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.640 in this transformation. Yes. The first is an 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:34.799 Israeli political and religious movement called 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:39.339 SAS. SAS, right. Now, to understand their impact 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:41.440 in Vienna, we have to look at what they were 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.789 doing in Israel. A quick detour. SAS was founded 00:20:44.789 --> 00:20:48.210 in 1984 by a very famous, very charismatic rabbi 00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:51.569 named Ovadia Yosef. And SAS did something incredibly 00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:53.589 strategic. What did they do? In Israel at the 00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:55.529 time, Jews from the Middle East and North Africa 00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:58.430 were facing terrible ethnic, economic, and class 00:20:58.430 --> 00:21:01.089 discrimination from the European Ashkenazi elite 00:21:01.089 --> 00:21:02.950 who had essentially founded the state. Right. 00:21:03.069 --> 00:21:05.049 Similar discrimination to what we saw in Vienna. 00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:07.609 Exactly. So H .A .O. came along and offered a 00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:10.089 political and spiritual home that united all 00:21:10.089 --> 00:21:12.289 these diverse Middle Eastern and North African 00:21:12.289 --> 00:21:15.789 communities under a single unified Sephardic 00:21:15.789 --> 00:21:19.039 umbrella. The strategic genius of S .H .A. was 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.599 how they reframed the narrative of discrimination. 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.819 How so? They told these marginalized communities, 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:28.640 you are failing to assimilate into Israeli society 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.180 because you are backward or uneducated, as the 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:34.940 Ashkenazim claim. You are being discriminated 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:37.500 against because the secular Ashkenazi establishment 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:40.039 has lost its way. They've lost their religion 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:42.339 while you have maintained your holy tradition. 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.400 Oh, wow. That flips the script. It was an incredibly 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.019 empowering message. It gave them pride. But that 00:21:48.019 --> 00:21:49.980 empowerment came with a catch. A significant 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:52.559 one. Yeah. By reframing ethnic discrimination 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.039 as a matter of religious superiority, SHAS began 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.039 to standardize what it meant to be a Sephardic 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.640 Jew. To create unity. Exactly. They had to create 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.039 a unified voting bloc and a unified religious 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:06.859 practice. Okay. In doing so, they began replacing 00:22:06.859 --> 00:22:10.460 the incredibly diverse, rich, local traditions 00:22:10.460 --> 00:22:14.769 of Yemen, Iraq, Morocco. Yeah. With a unified, 00:22:15.009 --> 00:22:18.769 strictly orthodox religious identity that mirrored 00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:22.730 the stringency of the Ashkenazim, but with Sephardic 00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:25.450 legal rulings. So they basically built a massive 00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:28.289 standardized umbrella. Right. But to fit under 00:22:28.289 --> 00:22:30.869 it, you had to leave your unique local customs 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:32.950 out in the rain. That's a great way to put it. 00:22:33.009 --> 00:22:35.529 And in Vienna, this process of standardization 00:22:35.529 --> 00:22:38.619 was accelerated even further. By the arrival 00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:42.099 of Shabbat. Yes, Shabbat. Which is a highly influential, 00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:46.519 globally organized, orthodox, Hasidic movement. 00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:49.920 Saad actually interviews the head of a Shabbat 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.759 center in Vienna, a man she calls Raphael, who 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.240 caters to many of the Bukharan youth today. Yes, 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.460 I remember this interview. And Raphael's quote 00:22:57.460 --> 00:23:00.279 in the research is just, it's a gut punch when 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.200 you think about Karen in the poetry room. Read 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.079 the quote. He says, quote, there are no Bukharan 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.009 traditions that one could teach. Many Bukharan 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:10.210 traditions are Muslim things that we adopted. 00:23:10.450 --> 00:23:13.650 The religious don't do that anymore. Wow. That 00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:16.289 quote is the absolute crux of the cultural transformation. 00:23:16.650 --> 00:23:19.309 That's just, wow, it's so dismissive. It is breathtaking 00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:22.829 in its erasure. Rafael is actively engaged in 00:23:22.829 --> 00:23:25.410 a process that the renowned anthropologist Talal 00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:27.970 Asad describes perfectly. What does Asad say? 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:32.140 Assad argues that religion is not a

static, timeless 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:35.380 category. It is a shifting set of disciplines 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:38.480 defined by power structures. So whoever has the 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.920 power defines the religion. Exactly. Rafael is 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.240 engaged in purifying the religion. Purify. He 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:49.200 is taking the vast, rich, deeply intertwined 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.799 cultural inheritance of Central Asia, right? 00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:54.559 The Shashmakam music, the specific traditions 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.440 of hospitality, the shared aesthetics, the local. 00:23:57.609 --> 00:23:59.849 ways of celebrating life milestones. All that 00:23:59.849 --> 00:24:02.710 beautiful watercolor stuff. Yes. And he is casually 00:24:02.710 --> 00:24:05.609 discarding them as mere Muslim things. He's drawing 00:24:05.609 --> 00:24:08.029 the Sharpie line. Exactly. He is declaring that 00:24:08.029 --> 00:24:10.789 if a practice doesn't exist in the strict codified 00:24:10.789 --> 00:24:14.589 legal texts of European style orthodoxy, it isn't 00:24:14.589 --> 00:24:16.970 authentically Jewish. It's a contaminant. It 00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:19.230 is a foreign contaminant. And by discarding the 00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:21.670 culture as a contaminant, they effectively sever 00:24:21.670 --> 00:24:23.589 the historical bridge between the Jewish and 00:24:23.589 --> 00:24:26.490 Muslim communities. The tragedy of losing the. 00:24:26.829 --> 00:24:29.269 you know, the grandmother's traditions, is just 00:24:29.269 --> 00:24:32.190 palpable here. It really is. It's like a family 00:24:32.190 --> 00:24:36.730 that owns a custom -built, quirky, centuries 00:24:36.730 --> 00:24:39.009 -old home. Okay, I'm listening. It's got weird 00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:41.609 hallways, colors that clash, but it holds all 00:24:41.609 --> 00:24:43.430 their memories. Then an inspector comes along 00:24:43.430 --> 00:24:45.750 and says, it's not up to the new municipal code. 00:24:45.930 --> 00:24:48.730 Oh, man. So they tear down the quirky family 00:24:48.730 --> 00:24:52.130 home and replace it with a standardized concrete 00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.109 franchise model. That's entirely what happened. 00:24:55.190 --> 00:24:57.569 Right. I mean, yes, you gain global recognition. 00:24:57.829 --> 00:24:59.829 Everyone recognizes the franchise. You get the 00:24:59.829 --> 00:25:02.069 safety and the funding of the institution. But 00:25:02.069 --> 00:25:04.930 you lose the local flavor. You lose the soul 00:25:04.930 --> 00:25:07.609 of the home. You lose the soul. I have to imagine 00:25:07.609 --> 00:25:09.329 not everyone was on board with this. Was there 00:25:09.329 --> 00:25:12.069 any pushback against this franchise model of 00:25:12.069 --> 00:25:15.509 Judaism? Yes, absolutely. You see a deep generational 00:25:15.509 --> 00:25:18.309 divide. I would assume so. Some of the older 00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:22.519 generation in Vienna. deeply resent this standardization. 00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:24.900 They must hate it. They see their grandchildren 00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:28.880 adopting this strict, rigid orthodoxy and they 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.339 feel it's actually a step backward. To them, 00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:34.220 it feels like an alien form of Judaism that they 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:36.980 simply don't recognize from their lives in Bukhara. 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:40.180 Because it is alien to them. Right. Sajid notes 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:42.940 that one elder in the community literally went 00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:45.000 out and built his own independent synagogue. 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:47.759 Oh, really? Yes, just to maintain a sense of 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.000 Bukharan family. music and community outside 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.140 of this new rigid institutional framework. A 00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:57.920 sanctuary for the quirky family home. Precisely. 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.440 But the tragedy is that the younger generation 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.240 is navigating a completely different world. Yeah, 00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:04.940 they don't know the old home. They don't have 00:26:04.940 --> 00:26:06.539 the lived memories of the Emirate. They don't 00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.619 remember the watercolor painting. Right. And 00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:11.200 more importantly, they are navigating a new, 00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:14.299 highly polarized political reality in modern 00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:17.640 Austria. Politics. We're adopting a strict, legally 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.890 bounded and Separate identity isn't just an internal 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:23.769 community debate. What is it then? It is heavily 00:26:23.769 --> 00:26:25.950 encouraged by the state itself. Which brings 00:26:25.950 --> 00:26:28.869 us to the political climate and how this internal 00:26:28.869 --> 00:26:31.650 identity shift is weaponized by outside forces. 00:26:31.849 --> 00:26:34.490 Yes, the weaponization of identity. Now, I want 00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:37.170 to pause here just so you listening know, we 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:39.269 are strictly looking at the academic findings 00:26:39.269 --> 00:26:42.009 from Ariane Sajid and Ruth Wodak here. Yes, very 00:26:42.009 --> 00:26:45.160 important context. We're not like... endorsing 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.480 a political stance or picking sides on Austrian 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.079 politics. We're strictly analyzing the sociological 00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:53.579 dynamic that they reported in attacks. Exactly. 00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:55.599 We are just reporting their analysis. Right. 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:58.819 So to understand how this separation hardened 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:01.599 into something political. Seyed and political 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.940 scientist Ruth Wodak point to the political climate 00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.500 in Austria over the last decade.

Specifically 00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:10.119 under former Chancellor Sebastian Kurz. Yes, 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.799 Chancellor Kurz of the UVP party, who governed 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.160 at times in coalition with the right -wing FPO. 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.559 Wodak's research documented how the government 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:21.400 utilized very specific, highly visible messaging. 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.920 Like what? They actively paired highly demonstrative 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:28.390 pro -Israel symbolism. Oh, like flying the flag. 00:27:28.609 --> 00:27:31.069 Literally flying the Israeli flag over the Austrian 00:27:31.069 --> 00:27:33.329 chancellery and parliament buildings. Wow. And 00:27:33.329 --> 00:27:36.170 they paired that with aggressive systemic anti 00:27:36.170 --> 00:27:39.069 -Muslim policies. Sociologically, this creates 00:27:39.069 --> 00:27:42.170 a fascinating and incredibly tense dynamic for 00:27:42.170 --> 00:27:44.369 minorities on the ground. Yeah, I bet. The state 00:27:44.369 --> 00:27:47.930 was simultaneously elevating one minority symbolically 00:27:47.930 --> 00:27:51.190 while actively targeting another. And the policies 00:27:51.190 --> 00:27:54.430 Wodak outlines were not subtle. Give me an example. 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:56.650 For example, the government published an online 00:27:56.650 --> 00:27:59.779 Islam map. An Islam map? Yeah. This was a digital 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:01.859 map that identified the locations and details 00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:05.380 of hundreds of Muslim organizations, mosques, 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:08.640 and cultural centers across Austria. That sounds 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.640 dangerous. Well, the stated goal was transparency, 00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:12.980 but unfortunately it led to right -wing groups 00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:15.559 putting up warning signs and some mosques being 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.039 targeted and vandalized. Of course it did. They 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.339 also introduced requirements for refugees, largely 00:28:20.339 --> 00:28:23.440 from Muslim countries, to sign formal declarations 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.019 against anti -Semitism in order to receive asylum. 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:29.259 And the political logic here, as Sajid points 00:28:29.259 --> 00:28:32.940 out, is incredibly calculated. How so? It's designed 00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:36.400 to reframe anti -Semitism purely as an imported 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.519 problem, a disease brought into pure Austria 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:42.079 by Muslim immigrants. The sheer political utility 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.720 of this framing cannot be overstated. Right. 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.779 Serves a purpose. By casting Muslims as the inherent 00:28:47.779 --> 00:28:50.819 imported threat. Yeah. And passing the Austrian 00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:54.079 state as the valiant protector of the Jews. I 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:56.920 see where this is going. The host society

conveniently 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.099 manages to absolve itself of its own long, deep 00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:03.099 -seated and horrific history of European anti 00:29:03.099 --> 00:29:05.970 -Semitism. Oh, wow. It's a sleight of hand. It's 00:29:05.970 --> 00:29:08.089 a massive sleight of hand. It turns minority 00:29:08.089 --> 00:29:11.529 groups into opposing chess pieces. Yeah. It forces 00:29:11.529 --> 00:29:13.710 a public narrative where minorities are played 00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:16.029 against each other. And the real historical danger 00:29:16.029 --> 00:29:18.829 of anti -Semitism becomes a convenient political 00:29:18.829 --> 00:29:22.500 instrument. An instrument to justify harsh anti 00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:25.380 -immigration policies. Exactly. And what's so 00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:28.559 vital about Syed's ethnographic research is that 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.720 she doesn't just analyze this from a bird's eye 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.099 view. No, she gets on the ground. She shows us 00:29:33.099 --> 00:29:35.559 exactly how this top -down political discourse 00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:38.759 takes up residence inside the mind of a human 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.519 being. The story of Layla. Yes. She introduces 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.539 us to a woman named Leila. Leila is a Bukharan 00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:47.759 woman in her late 50s living in Vienna. And in 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.339 her interviews, Leila has absorbed this political 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:52.779 frame perfectly. Totally internalized it. When 00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:55.059 the interviewer asks her about Syrian refugees 00:29:55.059 --> 00:29:58.759 coming into Austria, Leila physically recoils. 00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:02.039 She expresses deep fear. Right. She specifically 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.880 mentions fearing the black that they would wear, 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.309 referring to traditional Islamic clothing. Buys 00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:11.930 into the fear entirely. Yeah, entirely. And simultaneously, 00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:15.190 she fiercely praises Chancellor Sebastian Kurz. 00:30:15.410 --> 00:30:18.630 Of course. She says he loves Israel. He loves 00:30:18.630 --> 00:30:21.750 the Jews. She has completely internalized the 00:30:21.750 --> 00:30:24.269 state's narrative. Muslims are the terrifying 00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:26.890 threat. The Austrian strongman is the protector. 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.819 But this is where Sajid's research delivers a 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:32.859 profound, almost unbelievable twist. It's so 00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:35.380 good. It challenges everything we think we know 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:38.160 about prejudice. Yeah. In the exact same interview, 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:40.539 literally minutes after expressing this deep 00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:43.720 fear of serial refugees, Leila tells a completely 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:46.420 different story. Wait for it. She casually mentions 00:30:46.420 --> 00:30:48.539 that she recently bought a pet bird on an online 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.700 marketplace. Right, just a normal everyday errand. 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.400 Wait, she literally just went to buy a bird. 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.819 Yes. She goes to the seller's apartment to pick 00:30:55.819 --> 00:30:58.900 up the bird and discovers that the sellers are 00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:02.339 an Afghan family. Oh, wow. Now, according to 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.799 the political frame she just espoused, she should 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.700 be terrified. She should run away. Right. But 00:31:07.700 --> 00:31:10.200 what actually happens? What happens? She hears 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.480 them speaking and she starts speaking to them 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.480 in Bukhari. Oh, my gosh. She tells the interviewer 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.000 with a sense of wonder, it's almost the same 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.799 language. The trunk unlocks. The trunk unlocks. 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:24.200 The Afghan family doesn't treat her as a political 00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.700 enemy. Right. They welcome her into their home. 00:31:26.779 --> 00:31:28.920 They set a table for her. They serve her tea. 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:31.710 Because that's the culture. Exactly. They treat 00:31:31.710 --> 00:31:33.910 her with immense honor and hospitality, exactly 00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:36.349 as you would treat a respected elder in Central 00:31:36.349 --> 00:31:39.029 Asian culture. That is beautiful. They even call 00:31:39.029 --> 00:31:41.170 her weeks later just to check on how the bird 00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:45.190 is doing. No way. Yes. And Layla, sitting there 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:47.990 reflecting on this, tells the interviewer, we 00:31:47.990 --> 00:31:50.589 have a lot to learn from them. They are not all 00:31:50.589 --> 00:31:54.690 bad. Right. Yeah. It is amazing how Layla can 00:31:54.690 --> 00:31:56.990 hold these two entirely contradictory thoughts 00:31:56.990 --> 00:31:59.700 in her head at the exact same time. Cognitive 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:02.259 dissonance at its finest. I mean, the Syrian 00:32:02.259 --> 00:32:05.500 refugee is a terrifying, faceless abstraction 00:32:05.500 --> 00:32:08.980 that makes her fear for her safety. But the Afghan 00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:11.539 bird seller is a brother who serves her tea. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:14.299 It perfectly illustrates the psychology of prejudice 00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:16.700 and the power of proximity. Proximity is key. 00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:19.759 The abstraction, you know, Arabs, Islam, the 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.180 refugees. that produces fear. Right. And abstraction 00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:26.099 is essentially a blank canvas onto which top 00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:28.779 -down political rhetoric can paint monsters. 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.279 That's a great way to say it. But the encounter, 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:34.259 the face -to -face reality, especially an

encounter 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.640 conducted in a shared mother tongue, produces 00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.660 kinship. Yeah, you can't hate someone you're 00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:43.740 sharing tea in a language with. Exactly. Layla 00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:45.839 simply could not hold on to the rigid political 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.880 frame of the Muslim enemy while sitting at a 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.700 physical table being served tea by people speaking 00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:53.880 her grandmother's language. The shared tongue 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.619 literally cracked the political frame open. It 00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:59.579 dismantled the Sharpie lines in real time. So 00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:01.539 what does this all mean? I mean, I love the mechanics 00:33:01.539 --> 00:33:03.359 of that, the language short circuits, the political 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.599 conditioning. But Layla's fleeting moment with 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.480 the bird seller begs a massive question. What's 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:10.740 the question? If a shared language can crack 00:33:10.740 --> 00:33:13.240 that political frame for a few minutes, is there 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.599 anyone actually trying to keep that door wedged 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:18.579 open permanently? Ah, scaling the experience. 00:33:18.740 --> 00:33:20.819 Right. Because, let's be honest, the encounter 00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:23.240 is fragile. Sajid is very clear about that. But 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:25.740 very fragile. After the bird story, Layla still 00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:28.799 generally fears the Syrians. The political conditioning 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.420 often snaps right back into place because the 00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:33.359 institutions pushing it are so powerful. The 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.349 rubber band snaps back. Exactly. So how do we 00:33:36.349 --> 00:33:39.630 scale Layla's experience? Is anyone actively 00:33:39.630 --> 00:33:42.829 using this shared history as a tool for actual 00:33:42.829 --> 00:33:45.670 lasting resistance? That brings us to one of 00:33:45.670 --> 00:33:48.250 the most compelling figures in Sajid's research. 00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:50.930 Like who is it? A man who provides a roadmap 00:33:50.930 --> 00:33:52.910 for what that resistance actually looks like 00:33:52.910 --> 00:33:56.259 in practice. Sajid introduces us to another Bukharan 00:33:56.259 --> 00:33:59.640 living in Vienna, a shop owner named Ruben. Ruben 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.180 is fascinating because he subverts every expectation. 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:04.599 He really does. He is a deeply spiritual man. 00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:07.779 He studies Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism intensely, 00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:11.000 but he keeps his Jewishness very private in his 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:13.679 public life. He runs a shop that gets a lot of 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.440 foot traffic from Muslim immigrants from Central 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.900 Asia and the Middle East. Okay. When they come 00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:21.619 into his shop, he doesn't announce his religion. 00:34:22.230 --> 00:34:24.530 He doesn't put up boundaries. What does he do? 00:34:24.769 --> 00:34:28.690 He treats them, in his own words, like a brother. 00:34:28.949 --> 00:34:32.309 Wow. He speaks their language, whether it's a 00:34:32.309 --> 00:34:35.750 dialect of Persian or Russian. He engages with 00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:38.090 them on the level of shared culture. What Ruben 00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:41.230 is doing is... Quietly revolutionary. Quietly 00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:43.650 revolutionary. I love that. He actively refuses 00:34:43.650 --> 00:34:46.429 to buy into the political victim narrative that 00:34:46.429 --> 00:34:49.369 the state is pushing. Right. He explicitly rejects 00:34:49.369 --> 00:34:51.929 the instrumentalization of European anti -Semitism 00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:55.130 and particularly the Holocaust as a tool to make 00:34:55.130 --> 00:34:58.389 Jews fear modern Muslim immigrants. He sees right 00:34:58.389 --> 00:35:00.650 through the slide at hand. Exactly. He recognizes 00:35:00.650 --> 00:35:02.909 the political game being played and he opts out 00:35:02.909 --> 00:35:05.409 of it entirely. He operates on a completely different 00:35:05.409 --> 00:35:08.239 geometry of relationship. Yes. And this is the 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.780 core argument that researchers drawing on Sajjad's 00:35:10.780 --> 00:35:13.880 work are making today about interfaith dialogue. 00:35:14.409 --> 00:35:16.389 If we connect this to the bigger picture. Yeah, 00:35:16.429 --> 00:35:18.989 let's connect it. Most interfaith dialogue in 00:35:18.989 --> 00:35:21.409 the West, whether it's in Vienna, London or New 00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:24.389 York, relies entirely on an Ashkenazi European 00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:27.449 template. OK. The historical reference points 00:35:27.449 --> 00:35:30.289 brought to the table are the Holocaust and the 00:35:30.289 --> 00:35:33.130 Israeli -Palestinian conflict. Which is completely 00:35:33.130 --> 00:35:35.750 understandable given the immense moral weight 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:38.130 and historical trauma of those events. Absolutely. 00:35:38.269 --> 00:35:41.099 No one is denying that. Right. But structurally, 00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:44.000 when you use that specific European template 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.599 as the starting point for interfaith work. What 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:49.320 happens? It forces Jews and Muslims into the 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.119 roles of complete strangers. It sets them up 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.719 as opposing sides who have to laboriously build 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.349 trust from scratch. Right. Reaching across a 00:35:57.349 --> 00:36:00.210 massive, terrifying chasm of historical grievance, 00:36:00.230 --> 00:36:02.889 genocide, and modern geopolitical tension. That 00:36:02.889 --> 00:36:06.170 is incredibly heavy, difficult

work. It is exhausting 00:36:06.170 --> 00:36:08.590 work. But the Mizrahi and Sephardic experience, 00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:11.170 the specific experience of Jews from the Muslim 00:36:11.170 --> 00:36:14.329 world, like Karen, like Ruben. Yeah. It completely 00:36:14.329 --> 00:36:17.650 shifts that geometry. It changes the entire foundation 00:36:17.650 --> 00:36:21.280 of the conversation. How so? These are Jews whose 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.079 ancestors prayed in Arabic and Persian. Yeah. 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:27.079 Their poetry, their music, their cuisine, the 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:30.619 very cut of their clothing were continuous with 00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:32.619 their Muslim neighbors. The watercolor painting. 00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:35.980 Yes. The Muslim world, for the vast majority 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:39.239 of its history, wasn't primarily a site of European 00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.400 -style persecution. Right. For centuries, it 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.179 was home. It was home. Coexistence was the absolute 00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:50.210 norm, not the exception. Wow. So when you center 00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:52.809 the Bukharan or Mizrahi experience in interfaith 00:36:52.809 --> 00:36:55.550 work, Jews and Muslims are no longer strangers 00:36:55.550 --> 00:36:58.449 trying to negotiate a fraught peace treaty. What 00:36:58.449 --> 00:37:00.469 are they then? They are estranged family members 00:37:00.469 --> 00:37:02.650 recovering a forgotten shared household. Ah, 00:37:02.789 --> 00:37:05.170 I love that. The difference between construction 00:37:05.170 --> 00:37:08.110 and recovery is everything. It is everything. 00:37:08.269 --> 00:37:10.090 Think about it in your own life, you know, for 00:37:10.090 --> 00:37:12.349 the listener. Think about how much easier it 00:37:12.349 --> 00:37:14.210 is to reconnect with an old childhood friend 00:37:14.210 --> 00:37:16.730 you had a falling out with compared to cold calling 00:37:16.730 --> 00:37:18.829 a total stranger. trying to convince them to 00:37:18.829 --> 00:37:20.869 become your best friend. Such a good comparison. 00:37:21.289 --> 00:37:24.469 With a childhood friend, you already have the 00:37:24.469 --> 00:37:27.090 shared language, the shared inside jokes, the 00:37:27.090 --> 00:37:30.349 muscle memory of the relationship. That's what 00:37:30.349 --> 00:37:34.050 this shared culture does. Exactly. And the analysts 00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:36.989 looking at Sajid's work lay out four incredibly 00:37:36.989 --> 00:37:40.110 practical lessons for anyone trying to actually 00:37:40.110 --> 00:37:41.969 build bridges today. Okay, let's hear the four 00:37:41.969 --> 00:37:44.949 lessons. First, center the Jews of the Muslim 00:37:44.949 --> 00:37:48.340 world. Right. Bring Bukharin, Yemeni, Iraqi, 00:37:48.579 --> 00:37:50.900 Moroccan Jews to the forefront of the conversation. 00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:54.239 Because of that muscle memory? Yes. Their very 00:37:54.239

--> 00:37:57.179 existence, their lived history, disrupts the 00:37:57.179 --> 00:38:00.500 political lie that Jewish and Muslim are inherent 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:03.400 ancient opposites. Okay, second lesson. Second. 00:38:03.539 --> 00:38:06.360 Use shared culture as the doorway, not theology. 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.639 Yes. Don't start with heavy debates over scripture 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.059 or geopolitical sovereignty. That never works 00:38:11.059 --> 00:38:13.579 anyway. Start with the food. Start with the Shashmako 00:38:13.579 --> 00:38:15.880 music. Start with the Persian poetry. The Omar 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.019 Khayyam. Exactly. The text refers to these as 00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:21.619 the low wide doors. Think about it like this. 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.400 Theology and politics are high, narrow doors 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:28.139 with strict bouncers checking IDs. Oh, totally. 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.960 You get defensive just approaching them. But 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:34.340 poetry and food are low, wide doors. Everyone 00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:36.119 can walk through them together without feeling 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.219 threatened. That's a beautiful metaphor, and 00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:40.539 it works perfectly. Okay, what's lesson three? 00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:43.789 Third. Name the political manipulation out loud. 00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:46.590 Say it to their faces. We have to be honest and 00:38:46.590 --> 00:38:49.190 vocal when political majorities are trying to 00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:51.349 set minorities against each other for their own 00:38:51.349 --> 00:38:54.230 electoral gain. Yeah. You have to expose the 00:38:54.230 --> 00:38:56.650 sharpie lines for what they are. And finally, 00:38:56.710 --> 00:38:58.570 the fourth lesson, which I think is the most 00:38:58.570 --> 00:39:00.590 poignant. What's your take on it? Expect the 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:03.110 encounter to be temporary and fragile and do 00:39:03.110 --> 00:39:05.550 it anyway. Yes, do it anyway. Layla's moment 00:39:05.550 --> 00:39:09.210 of kinship over the bird was temporary. It didn't 00:39:09.210 --> 00:39:12.070 cure her of all her prejudices instantly. Right. 00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:14.829 She still feared the Syrians. But for an afternoon, 00:39:14.989 --> 00:39:18.329 it widened the space in her mind. It made a different 00:39:18.329 --> 00:39:21.050 kind of relationship suddenly thinkable. Thinkable 00:39:21.050 --> 00:39:23.909 is the first step. If you accumulate enough of 00:39:23.909 --> 00:39:26.550 those temporary fragile moments, you eventually 00:39:26.550 --> 00:39:29.489 wear down the cognitive isolation. You slowly 00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:32.869 rebuild the muscle memory of coexistence. We 00:39:32.869 --> 00:39:34.849 have covered an incredible amount of ground today. 00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:37.730 We really have. We started with Karen in a room 00:39:37.730 --> 00:39:40.909 in Vienna. entirely shocked to hear

Afghan refugees 00:39:40.909 --> 00:39:44.030 speaking her grandmother's supposedly exclusive 00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:47.929 Jewish language, Bukhari. A truly cinematic start. 00:39:48.170 --> 00:39:50.670 We traveled back to the Emirate Bukhara, where 00:39:50.670 --> 00:39:53.570 Jewish musicians played for the emir, and rabbis 00:39:53.570 --> 00:39:56.059 proudly lived under the wings of Ishmael. The 00:39:56.059 --> 00:39:59.139 watercolor days. Exactly. We watched as that 00:39:59.139 --> 00:40:01.900 beautifully blended shared culture was dismantled 00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:05.800 by the racism of 1970s Vienna, which forced stranded 00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.500 Bukharan Jews to adopt European religious metrics. 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.260 just to survive. Force them into the mold. We 00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:13.900 saw how institutions standardized that identity, 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:16.699 labeling centuries of shared culture as Muslim 00:40:16.699 --> 00:40:19.320 things to be discarded. And we navigated the 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:21.719 dark waters of modern political weaponization, 00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:24.360 where the state actively pits minorities against 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.099 each other. And finally, we found a roadmap in 00:40:27.099 --> 00:40:30.000 Rubin and the low, wide doors of shared cultural 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.780 memory. The recovery of the household. The profound 00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:35.119 realization that we aren't building peace from 00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.519 scratch, we are just remembering a forgotten 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:41.650 friendship. It is a remarkable, sobering, yet 00:40:41.650 --> 00:40:43.949 ultimately hopeful trajectory. It really is. 00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:46.469 And as we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave 00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:48.409 you listening with a final thought to Mullover. 00:40:48.590 --> 00:40:53.260 Let's hear it. We've seen today how immense geopolitical 00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:56.380 and social pressures, you know, migration, racism, 00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:59.219 institutional standardization and political rhetoric. 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.500 How all of that can cause an entire community 00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:05.880 to literally forget its own mother tongue and 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.739 actively rewrite its own history of peaceful 00:41:08.739 --> 00:41:12.400 coexistence all in the staggering span of just 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.730 two generations. Two generations. It's nothing. 00:41:15.969 --> 00:41:18.690 If human memory is truly that malleable, if our 00:41:18.690 --> 00:41:21.269 deepest identities can be reshaped that quickly 00:41:21.269 --> 00:41:23.550 to serve the needs of the present. What's the 00:41:23.550 --> 00:41:26.269 question? What other ancient unbreakable animosities 00:41:26.269 --> 00:41:28.690 in our world today are actually just recent inventions? 00:41:28.969 --> 00:41:31.610 Oh, wow. What shared languages, what shared histories 00:41:31.610 --> 00:41:33.849 are you right now being conditioned to forget? 00:41:34.170 --> 00:41:36.690 A profound question to end on. Thank you for 00:41:36.690 --> 00:41:38.510 joining us on this deep dive. Thanks for listening. 00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:40.650 Keep questioning the narratives you are handed. 00:41:40.809 --> 00:41:44.360 Keep looking for those low, wide doors. And maybe, 00:41:44.539 --> 00:41:47.219 just maybe you'll find out that the stranger 00:41:47.219 --> 00:41:49.260 across the table has been speaking your mother 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:50.159 tongue all along.