Deliberate Wisdom: Leadership Intelligence and Better Decision-Making with Caroline Webb의 전체 녹취록

the line. 65 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,045 We are in the uncertain times. 66 00:03:52,046 --> 00:03:55,478 We don't have all the data to make decisions, so people lean on the 67 00:03:55,479 --> 00:03:59,450 first one when it's actually not relevant to the situation they're in. 68 00:03:59,850 --> 00:04:00,658 Yeah, so true. 69 00:04:00,734 --> 00:04:01,936 Uh, you put it beautifully. 70 00:04:01,938 --> 00:04:04,607 I mean, the, there are three big themes that run through the book. 71 00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:08,262 The first one is this concept of deliberate wisdom because, you 72 00:04:08,264 --> 00:04:09,833 know, so much is changing around us. 73 00:04:10,686 --> 00:04:15,462 so e- even if we have experience, it doesn't necessarily equip us to make good 74 00:04:15,462 --> 00:04:17,828 choices about where we wanna go from here. 75 00:04:18,153 --> 00:04:24,480 And in any case, it turns out that we have a tendency to not see the whole 76 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,804 picture, even when we are dealing with things that we've seen before. 77 00:04:27,834 --> 00:04:32,484 Um, it turns out that we have a tiny amount of conscious attention to bring 78 00:04:32,485 --> 00:04:37,577 to the world, which is much more complex than our brains can process, and, you 79 00:04:37,577 --> 00:04:39,534 know, the difference here is quite stark. 80 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:43,167 You know, we can process maybe 10 to 100 bits of information at any given time, 81 00:04:43,169 --> 00:04:47,755 and the world is bombarding our brain with maybe a billion bits of information. 82 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:51,220 So we've got this tiny amount of conscious attention for noticing 83 00:04:51,220 --> 00:04:53,955 and processing what's going on. 84 00:04:54,006 --> 00:04:57,540 And so y- we need a bit of humility to understand that we're gonna 85 00:04:57,540 --> 00:04:59,364 be missing stuff all the time. 86 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,450 And what we can do as humans, as leaders trying to make good choices, is be 87 00:05:05,451 --> 00:05:09,035 aware of that, and then be deliberate about saying, "Okay, well, how do I 88 00:05:09,042 --> 00:05:13,242 widen my perspective to make sure I'm not missing the things that actually 89 00:05:13,273 --> 00:05:18,156 matter?" Because left to ourselves, our brain will drive that tiny bit 90 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:21,893 of conscious attention to whatever matches what's on our minds right now. 91 00:05:22,121 --> 00:05:27,280 There's a whole family of cognitive biases that sit under that basic observation, 92 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:28,723 what I call the top-of-mind effect. 93 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:31,073 You know, you might have heard of inattentional blindness. 94 00:05:31,077 --> 00:05:34,732 That's the famous basketball gorilla video where if you've got a goal in 95 00:05:34,732 --> 00:05:38,066 mind, you'll see everything connected to that, but you'll miss potentially 96 00:05:38,066 --> 00:05:39,442 other things that are interesting. 97

00:05:39,748 --> 00:05:42,573 Confirmation bias is another one that people have generally heard of, where 98 00:05:42,574 --> 00:05:45,770 you have a strong assumption, you see everything that confirms your assumption. 99 00:05:45,797 --> 00:05:48,022 You might miss things that point in another direction. 100 00:05:48,501 --> 00:05:52,806 So we wanna be very deliberate about saying, "Uh-huh, I understand 101 00:05:52,807 --> 00:05:58,646 I'm missing things. What can I do to throw the aperture a bit wider 102 00:05:59,335 --> 00:06:00,845 to see more of what matters?" 103 00:06:00,884 --> 00:06:05,634 And that's what a lot of the, the advice in the first third of the book is about. 104 00:06:06,411 --> 00:06:09,158 But you might be saying, "Well, you've just said you've got a limited amount 105 00:06:09,158 --> 00:06:12,497 of attention, so how on earth are you supposed to widen, you know, your 106 00:06:12,499 --> 00:06:16,516 perspective? Isn't that, you know, going to be diluting your attention even 107 00:06:16,517 --> 00:06:20,419 further?" And the truth is that you have to be, you know, practical about it. 108 00:06:20,419 --> 00:06:24,704 You have to say, "Okay, well, how do I lighten the cognitive load anywhere 109 00:06:24,706 --> 00:06:29,169 that it doesn't matter?" Because most of us are frittering our attention 110 00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:33,451 across, , various notifications and disruptions and interruptions. 111 00:06:33,698 --> 00:06:38,164 We're not intentional about saying, "Actually, I will be better at bringing 112 00:06:38,164 --> 00:06:42,260 my full intention, , intelligence to something that matters if I stop 113 00:06:42,260 --> 00:06:46,590 scattering it across all of these different things." so widen and 114 00:06:46,590 --> 00:06:48,176 lighten, that's how I remember it. 115 00:06:49,019 --> 00:06:52,415 widen your perspective where it matters, lighten your cognitive load where you can. 116 00:06:52,451 --> 00:06:58,007 And that guides so much of the good advice on how to make good choices, 117 00:06:58,068 --> 00:07:03,442 how to g- make, find your way through a complex situation, how to handle 118 00:07:03,443 --> 00:07:05,054 disagreement, and, and so forth. 119 00:07:05,063 --> 00:07:09,740 It all goes back to that careful, intentional use of your tiny 120 00:07:09,740 --> 00:07:11,065 amount of conscious attention 121 00:07:11,459 --> 00:07:14,613 I thought about a relevant kind of recent point. 122 00:07:14,615 --> 00:07:17,291 So we're in, we're going into flu season at the moment. 123 00:07:17,321 --> 00:07:20,511 My son, my older son has a bit of a cold at the moment. 124 00:07:20,847 --> 00:07:25,435 I thought about, for example, you have a GP who sees her fifth chest 125 00:07:25,441 --> 00:07:30,736 infection in the week and expects a sixth, but then you have maybe a younger 126 00:07:30,777 --> 00:07:35,228 newcomer to the team, and that one notices something different that… 127 00:07:35,231 --> 00:07:40,809 So they widen and they go, they go, "Hey, well, what else could it be? Could it 128 00:07:40,825 --> 00:07:46,520 be a heart problem?" And I thought about how that reflects into an organizational 129 00:07:46,524 --> 00:07:53,042 sense where the expert, going back to the gorilla, so the expert will see what 130 00:07:53,042 --> 00:07:55,120 they've seen before and look for it. 131 00:07:55,346 --> 00:07:58,987 And oftentimes if they're under time pressure, then actually accelerate towards 132 00:07:58,988 --> 00:08:02,547 that decision and ha- maybe even have it before they even look at it and kind 133 00:08:02,548 --> 00:08:03,956 of go, "I know what this is gonna be." 134 00:08:04,342 --> 00:08:08,157 And it's usually the one with less experience or the one that's more 135 00:08:08,157 --> 00:08:12,692 curious or maybe, to your point, hasn't been overloaded with things that can 136 00:08:12,693 --> 00:08:15,236 spot the anomaly in the, in the moment. 137 00:08:15,618 --> 00:08:20,271 And, and I, I thought that I'd, uh, love you to share that because this 138 00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:23,747 is where stuff like, even stuff like doing meditation, being able 139 00:08:23,748 --> 00:08:28,339 to slow down a little bit, being able to see information when you're 140 00:08:28,339 --> 00:08:30,572 not so focused is so, so important 141 00:08:30,999 --> 00:08:31,966 Yeah, it's true. 142 00:08:32,797 --> 00:08:37,989 I think it does, I mean, it does take habit to, to overcome this very 143 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,120 instinctive, drawing of attention to what confirms what you're already thinking. 144 00:08:42,902 --> 00:08:47,792 That's a very automatic process, so the only way that you can overcome that and 145 00:08:47,793 --> 00:08:50,500 make sure you're not missing something just because your brain says, "Ooh, I'm 146 00:08:50,501 --> 00:08:54,025 doing some pattern matching, so I'm gonna, you know, make sure you notice this, 147 00:08:54,830 --> 00:09:00,257 or perceive it in a certain way," is to say, "Okay, what is my habitual response 148 00:09:00,262 --> 00:09:03,542 to something where I, I notice that I feel really strongly about something, 149 00:09:03,542 --> 00:09:08,697 I'm very sure of myself?" And I think it really helps to get, you know, just one 150 00:09:09,074 --> 00:09:10,931 question that you can always remember. 151 00:09:10,982 --> 00:09:15,522 Uh, one k- um, executive that I worked with it was, "What am I missing?" It was 152 00:09:15,522 --> 00:09:20,165 very simple Um, you know, for me it's, "What's another way of seeing this?" 153 00:09:20,496 --> 00:09:25,552 Something that you can reach for, that you can put on a Post-It note, you can write 154 00:09:25,580 --> 00:09:29,405 in your notebook, you can just have in your field of vision just to say, "Okay, 155 00:09:29,441 --> 00:09:30,969 I notice I'm feeling strongly about it. 156 00:09:30,979 --> 00:09:32,350 What's top of mind for me? 157 00:09:32,546 -->

00:09:35,979 What does that mean I might be missing?" Um, and whatever shorthand 158 00:09:36,006 --> 00:09:40,657 you need in order to remember that is what I encourage everyone I 159 00:09:40,661 --> 00:09:42,664 work with to, to get a version of. 160 00:09:43,454 --> 00:09:45,880 And then of course there are sort of much more specific ways 161 00:09:45,892 --> 00:09:47,043 that this can play through. 162 00:09:47,047 --> 00:09:52,817 If you find yourself and you are in a difficult or complex situation, and 163 00:09:53,048 --> 00:09:58,484 you need to, you need to uncover what's really going on, this is where what 164 00:09:58,484 --> 00:10:01,063 I call 360 degree vision comes in. 165 00:10:01,076 --> 00:10:03,374 You know, it's very hard for us to see the full picture. 166 00:10:03,402 --> 00:10:04,990 We've already, you know, said that. 167 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,863 So how can you look at a situation from all angles? 168 00:10:09,938 --> 00:10:13,544 And again, you know, my favorite habit is a single question, but I 169 00:10:13,618 --> 00:10:17,870 also have a little model for people that is hopefully easy to remember. 170 00:10:18,435 --> 00:10:21,923 The 360 degree vision has four different components to it 171 00:10:21,926 --> 00:10:23,166 that you might otherwise skip. 172 00:10:23,871 --> 00:10:27,338 One is, uh, seeing deeper, so asking better, deeper 173 00:10:27,338 --> 00:10:28,596 questions of your colleagues. 174 00:10:29,361 --> 00:10:33,626 is seeing differently, which is, uh, seeing the situation from the 175 00:10:33,626 --> 00:10:36,129 eyes of somebody who just has a different way of thinking about it. 176 00:10:37,551 --> 00:10:40,830 and, you know, that might be mentors, that might be just colleagues, you 177 00:10:40,831 --> 00:10:42,454 know, have a contrary view to you. 178 00:10:43,187 --> 00:10:46,040 Um, then there's see across, which is making sure you're not focused 179 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,670 on just one data point, but you're putting it in context and you're 180 00:10:48,671 --> 00:10:50,563 seeing, you know, how does this fit in? 181 00:10:50,613 --> 00:10:54,850 Is this actually normal if you look across, uh, or is this actually unusual? 182 00:10:55,832 --> 00:11:00,186 and then see the system, because we often don't zoom out and see the whole system. 183 00:11:00,186 --> 00:11:03,181 And if you do any of those four things, you deepen your understanding 184 00:11:03,564 --> 00:11:07,504 of a complicated situation in a way that can make a huge difference, 185 00:11:07,513 --> 00:11:10,577 especially if you're a manager or a leader trying to make choices 186 00:11:10,579 --> 00:11:12,074 that are really consequential. 187 00:11:12,445 --> 00:11:14,908 You wanna do that with the best possible understanding 188 00:11:14,911 --> 00:11:16,236 of a situation before you wade 189 00:11:16,715 --> 00:11:18,410 do you remember Petit Filous, the little yogurts? 190 00:11:19,037 --> 00:11:24,239 And there was an ad, and it was the king's taster, and the, so the, the taster's, 191 00:11:24,239 --> 00:11:27,478 like, tasting the yogurts, uh, and kind of go- really likes them and is, like, 192 00:11:27,478 --> 00:11:30,949 going, "Oh, you wouldn't like these, King," and gives the king an apple, and 193 00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:33,687 the king bites the apple and dies, right? 194 00:11:34,191 --> 00:11:39,722 And, uh, the, I, I often think about how the same thing happens to leaders, 195 00:11:39,739 --> 00:11:43,708 where people go, "Oh, you couldn't tell Caroline that. She wouldn't like 196 00:11:43,708 --> 00:11:47,863 to hear that news." Uh, instead of actually, she needs to hear this news. 197 00:11:47,903 --> 00:11:48,795 I know it's bad. 198 00:11:48,825 --> 00:11:52,319 I know it's not what we want to hear, but a client was not 199 00:11:52,321 --> 00:11:56,341 happy, or there's a supply chain issue, we need to tell her ASAP. 200 00:11:56,748 --> 00:12:00,099 And in your, in the book, you say information gets bent on its 201 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:04,339 way to the top, and again, this distorts what leadership sees. 202 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,708 But leaders forget that that happens. 203 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:07,263 Yes. 204 00:12:07,301 --> 00:12:08,238 Oh, absolutely. 205 00:12:08,247 --> 00:12:12,294 And, you know, this is the, the body of research that's known as employee voice. 206 00:12:12,298 --> 00:12:16,535 You know, are your employees giving voice to, the things that they're worrying 207 00:12:16,539 --> 00:12:20,340 about, the things that they're noticing, and is it filtering its way up to you? 208 00:12:20,341 --> 00:12:24,699 This is the work that Amy Edmondson, started many, many years ago, and then 209 00:12:24,701 --> 00:12:27,506 she talked about psychological safety being a condition that you need to 210 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:34,061 create in order for employees to be able to feel okay about raising issues 211 00:12:34,064 --> 00:12:35,715 that are going to be a little bumpy. 212 00:12:36,608 --> 00:12:40,732 this is, absolutely, you know, this is something that great leaders 213 00:12:40,753 --> 00:12:44,422 really invest deliberately in, which is signaling that they really 214 00:12:44,435 --> 00:12:46,437 do want to hear what's going on. 215 00:12:47,083 --> 00:12:52,245 And if you don't make a deliberate effort, it's not that your colleagues 216 00:12:52,247 --> 00:12:57,038 are, you know, deliberately hiding things from you, but it's just y- you need to 217 00:12:57,729 --> 00:13:02,827 create the conditions for them to raise concerns that may not be fully baked. 218 00:13:02,923 --> 00:13:05,279 I mean, if you think about yourself and you think about, "Well, you know, 219 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:07,762 I had a bit of a concern about that, but I didn't say anything because I 220 00:13:07,763 --> 00:13:12,922 wasn't sure," you actually need to hear this stuff as a, as a leader. 221 00:13:12,922 --> 00:13:18,893 And so being

very clear about "Yes, I wanna learn, I wanna understand, I 222 00:13:18,893 --> 00:13:23,121 wanna, you know, I want to excavate, you know, what, what's really going on 223 00:13:23,121 --> 00:13:26,685 in this situation," at the beginning of a conversation is quite different 224 00:13:26,685 --> 00:13:30,204 than just walking in and saying, "Well, what do you think's going on?" If you 225 00:13:30,205 --> 00:13:35,206 step back and say, "Okay, wanted to talk to you because I'm really confused 226 00:13:35,206 --> 00:13:38,338 about what's happening with this, the rollout of this process that just 227 00:13:38,339 --> 00:13:40,232 doesn't seem to be working properly. 228 00:13:41,317 --> 00:13:44,444 I'm trying to better understand what's going on with it. 229 00:13:45,213 --> 00:13:49,812 With, you know, assuming that everybody's well-intended, can you 230 00:13:49,823 --> 00:13:52,032 help me understand why it's so hard? 231 00:13:52,205 --> 00:13:54,394 T- can we talk about what you're seeing? 232 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:57,596 Can we talk about, you know, what's your sense of what's going on, 233 00:13:58,001 --> 00:14:00,879 and what's driving that?" Very different type of conversation. 234 00:14:00,879 --> 00:14:03,395 The person's not gonna feel like you're evaluating them. 235 00:14:03,407 --> 00:14:06,828 Y- you're going in and really telegraphing that you're, you are 236 00:14:06,828 --> 00:14:08,794 curious and want to understand. 237 00:14:09,066 --> 00:14:13,621 And that preamble, so easy to breeze through and just assume, "Well, of 238 00:14:13,624 --> 00:14:16,179 course I'm not evaluating them. I'm just trying to find out." But unless 239 00:14:16,180 --> 00:14:19,671 you stop and label it and be very intentional about signaling it at 240 00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:22,912 the beginning of a conversation, people are gonna be naturally much 241 00:14:22,914 --> 00:14:24,171 more nervous about speaking up. 242 00:14:25,324 --> 00:14:29,331 I spoke a few years ago to Bethany McLean, who wrote the book The Smartest 243 00:14:29,333 --> 00:14:31,053 Guys in the Room: The Story of Enron. 244 00:14:31,232 --> 00:14:31,650 Enron, 245 00:14:31,852 --> 00:14:35,340 Yeah, brilliant book, and she was the journalist who actually 246 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:39,814 uncovered the false reporting and actually started the whole snowball 247 00:14:39,814 --> 00:14:41,718 effect to uncover what was going on. 248 00:14:42,135 --> 00:14:46,567 But she s- she said about this, she said, "Look," she said, "Nobody wants to be told 249 00:14:46,617 --> 00:14:49,486 by their kid, 'Mom, your cooking sucks.'" 250 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:55,453 Like, no leader wants to be told, "Your… This is wrong," or, "The strategy's 251 00:14:55,453 --> 00:15:00,685 flawed," or, "I see something different." So I wondered what in the book you 252 00:15:00,734 --> 00:15:04,784 advise to somebody who is that type of gainsayer inside an organization. 253 00:15:04,794 --> 00:15:08,924

Somebody who… I- 'cause often it's a, it's a character trait for somebody 254 00:15:08,927 --> 00:15:10,334 to go, "Look, I can't be quiet. 255 00:15:10,336 --> 00:15:11,333 I have to tell you about this. 256 00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:14,851 I know it's probably be, you're gonna keep a receipt on me about 257 00:15:14,886 --> 00:15:17,987 telling you this, but I have to tell you." And it's dangerous. 258 00:15:17,988 --> 00:15:21,929 I mean, being a whistleblower is not always a, a positive 259 00:15:21,943 --> 00:15:24,437 for the whistleblower, but it's great for the company. 260 00:15:24,644 --> 00:15:24,894 But 261 00:15:24,939 --> 00:15:25,244 Yeah. 262 00:15:25,335 --> 00:15:26,736 it's really challenging. 263 00:15:26,813 --> 00:15:30,873 And for people who are often conflicted with that, I mean, it's a very human 264 00:15:30,873 --> 00:15:32,964 reason where you might go, "My job. 265 00:15:33,025 --> 00:15:34,442 You know, I have a mortgage to pay. 266 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:35,601 I don't wanna lose this job. 267 00:15:35,604 --> 00:15:36,718 I don't wanna go back to the market. 268 00:15:36,740 --> 00:15:40,057 And if I say something, they're gonna come after me." 269 00:15:40,154 --> 00:15:40,799 Oh, for sure. 270 00:15:40,810 --> 00:15:43,857 And, you know, the, uh, what I would say is that the best leaders, and 271 00:15:43,858 --> 00:15:46,377 every, every chapter in the book has a role model, someone I know 272 00:15:46,387 --> 00:15:50,465 who's really good at the, you know, the topic of the, of the chapter. 273 00:15:51,139 --> 00:15:55,095 The leaders who are in the deliberate wisdom section of the book, all of 274 00:15:55,099 --> 00:15:58,797 them are smart about making sure that they have a little process to 275 00:15:58,798 --> 00:16:00,458 draw out what people are thinking. 276 00:16:01,319 --> 00:16:02,500 don't leave it to chance. 277 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,665 so I've talked about, you know, how you would ask genuine open questions and, 278 00:16:08,059 --> 00:16:11,672 you know, with signaling really real curiosity when you're in a one-to-one. 279 00:16:11,682 --> 00:16:15,322 But in a group setting, there's, there's some extra source that 280 00:16:15,322 --> 00:16:18,069 it's helpful to, to know about. 281 00:16:18,089 --> 00:16:22,592 You know, if you, if you do something called turn-taking, research is really 282 00:16:22,593 --> 00:16:27,725 clear that groups get smarter if leaders do draw out the quiet voices, and say, 283 00:16:28,078 --> 00:16:31,944 "I notice you haven't said anything," you know, would you, what would you add?" 284 00:16:31,967 --> 00:16:35,895 Or, "I'd like to hear from the people who haven't spoken yet." Or, you know, 285 00:16:35,898 --> 00:16:38,841 if you've got time, and it's really important, you don't always have time, 286 00:16:38,841 --> 00:16:42,886 and it's not always as important as this, but you might say, "I wanna hear one 287 00:16:42,886 --> 00:16:47,828 thing from everybody." the other thing that I really advocate is something I 288 00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:53,157 call hypothetical questions, and the way that works is you're surfacing 289 00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:55,020 thoughts that aren't fully baked. 290 00:16:55,834 --> 00:16:59,109 If you think about, you know, that fear of, well, I don't know whether, 291 00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:03,483 whether I'm sure about this or not, but if you ask people to say, "If 292 00:17:03,484 --> 00:17:09,100 you had a concern, what would it be?" conditional language creates a bit of 293 00:17:09,101 --> 00:17:13,585 distance, so you don't have to be sure, if you had a concern, what would it be? 294 00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:19,410 You are going to hear so much more of what's really going on, and you 295 00:17:19,427 --> 00:17:24,549 legitimize the surfacing of, you know, little niggles and stuff that 296 00:17:24,570 --> 00:17:26,208 wouldn't otherwise see the light of day. 297 00:17:26,941 --> 00:17:31,020 Um, and that is, you know, that is one of my favorite ways of making 298 00:17:31,021 --> 00:17:33,778 sure that you get to the real conversation in a, in a group. 299 00:17:34,531 --> 00:17:37,217 And in fact, that, you know, I mean, to be clear, that works one-to-one as well. 300 00:17:37,223 --> 00:17:39,681 I mean, if I was sitting with you, Aidan, as I… You know, if you 301 00:17:39,686 --> 00:17:40,955 had a concern, what would it be? 302 00:17:41,413 --> 00:17:45,826 I'm, I'm therefore lowering the ante for you to say, "Well, actually, Caroline, 303 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:50,400 you know, if I had a concern, the thing would be" And there we go, and 304 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,604 then we've got a real conversation. 305 00:17:52,270 --> 00:17:55,383 I love the role models you introduce in each of the chapters. 306 00:17:55,419 --> 00:17:59,946 And the, what we're talking about here, just to help signpost it, is in chapter 307 00:17:59,946 --> 00:18:05,382 one you talk about understanding a complex situation, and importantly, 360 degree 308 00:18:05,394 --> 00:18:07,234 vision, which is that point that you make. 309 00:18:07,237 --> 00:18:11,665 But the, the hero here, or the exemplar that you give, is a 310 00:18:11,671 --> 00:18:13,050 guy called Michael Roberts. 311 00:18:13,050 --> 00:18:15,192 He was the CMO in MetLife. 312 00:18:15,262 --> 00:18:19,140 And what I found really interesting about it, and I'd love you to share how he 313 00:18:19,142 --> 00:18:26,139 does it, but was that many times the most prolific people in a role are outsiders. 314 00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:31,053 And by being outsiders or having some previously different skill, they, 315 00:18:31,087 --> 00:18:32,715 that's, that's actually positive. 316 00:18:32,761 --> 00:18:36,596 It might feel at the start a bit like, "Oh, I'm an imposter," but actually 317 00:18:36,597 --> 00:18:41,079 brings a new set of lenses to the very point of having 360 degree vision. 318 00:18:41,334 --> 00:18:44,587

But Michael had a great way of managing this with his team 319 00:18:45,493 --> 00:18:45,931 Yeah. 320 00:18:46,065 --> 00:18:50,339 I mean, it's a bit back to your example of the GP who's newer, and perhaps therefore 321 00:18:50,339 --> 00:18:52,460 is coming in and asking the questions. 322 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:56,609 And Buddhists would say this is the begin- the beginner's mind. 323 00:18:56,639 --> 00:19:00,042 You're coming in with that degree of openness and curiosity. 324 00:19:00,842 --> 00:19:08,025 Um, so Michael had a background as an opera singer, and he made 325 00:19:08,055 --> 00:19:11,461 the leap into working in business. 326 00:19:11,497 --> 00:19:14,480 And initially, of course, he had a lot to learn. 327 00:19:14,486 --> 00:19:15,284 You can imagine. 328 00:19:15,288 --> 00:19:18,322 He had quite a steep leaning, uh, learning curve, and he discovered 329 00:19:18,322 --> 00:19:24,017 that he was asking questions that actually often uncovered real insight 330 00:19:24,063 --> 00:19:25,289 that his colleagues weren't asking. 331 00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:29,052 So it's almost a perfect, uh, analogy for, for the GP situation 332 00:19:29,063 --> 00:19:29,799 that you're talking about. 333 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,506 And so he kept hold of that. 334 00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:35,509 He aimed to keep hold of that openness and curiosity. 335 00:19:35,638 --> 00:19:41,706 Um, and so he developed the habits that I write about in, uh, in that chapter. 336 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:46,837 he's, uh, very good at doing… We talked about sort of asking questions 337 00:19:46,837 --> 00:19:51,429 of your team, but he was also very good at, uh, asking questions of 338 00:19:51,429 --> 00:19:56,026 mentors and peers and saying, "Okay, what, what could I be missing? 339 00:19:56,027 --> 00:19:59,814 What would be a different way of seeing this?" And I like doing this actually 340 00:19:59,819 --> 00:20:02,675 just, um, you know, in your own head. 341 00:20:02,698 --> 00:20:06,719 I mean, if you just imagine or four people who, you know, always 342 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,084 challenge you a little bit, maybe see things in a different way. 343 00:20:09,323 --> 00:20:12,228 Maybe, maybe it's a bit annoying that they do, you know, y- but 344 00:20:12,228 --> 00:20:15,210 you remember conversations with them that were meaty and good. 345 00:20:15,871 --> 00:20:19,150 You don't actually have to reach out to them, although, 346 00:20:19,243 --> 00:20:20,512 you know, it's great if you can. 347 00:20:20,521 --> 00:20:22,564 You can just imagine what they would say to you. 348 00:20:23,203 --> 00:20:29,150 Okay, what, what would, what would Natalie say to me I might be missing on this? 349 00:20:29,165 --> 00:20:31,616 Or what would Colin say I might be missing? 350 00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:36,685 so, you know, that can give you a little bit of extra insight that 351 00:20:36,693 --> 00:20:38,080 you would otherwise be missing. 352 00:20:38,859 --> 00:20:42,711 And if you have your little roster of, you know, people in your mind that you've 353 00:20:42,735 --> 00:20:48,737 got this purpose, your personal advisory board sometimes it's called, then you 354 00:20:48,737 --> 00:20:52,563 can reach for those alternate, those different perspectives, , quite quickly. 355 00:20:52,664 --> 00:20:54,597 And that's something you can also use AI for. 356 00:20:54,597 --> 00:20:58,960 You can role, role play and role, , and, and, and rehearse the challenging 357 00:20:58,961 --> 00:21:01,321 conversations you might have with these people who would help you 358 00:21:01,323 --> 00:21:03,768 see, you know, what you're missing. 359 00:21:04,171 --> 00:21:06,552 And I think this is another place where those hypothetical 360 00:21:06,553 --> 00:21:08,083 questions can come into play. 361 00:21:08,084 --> 00:21:13,851 You can say, "Look, if you were, if you weren't trying to be polite and 362 00:21:13,984 --> 00:21:18,719 if I were missing something, what would you say?" That's helped me 363 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,518 on, on a number of occasions to see something I would otherwise have missed 364 00:21:22,338 --> 00:21:24,753 If, if I wasn't your boss and you were at the water cooler, 365 00:21:24,753 --> 00:21:25,861 what would you say about me? 366 00:21:27,137 --> 00:21:28,164 Never answer that. 367 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,573 Never answer that. 368 00:21:31,089 --> 00:21:35,889 But, uh, speaking of which, so chapter six talks about handling a disagreement 369 00:21:35,897 --> 00:21:40,363 well, and I, I actually said, "I'm gonna ask this for my own personal life." No. 370 00:21:40,959 --> 00:21:42,150 Asking for a friend. 371 00:21:42,246 --> 00:21:42,775 Yeah, yeah. 372 00:21:43,303 --> 00:21:46,653 This is for a friend, Hayden McMullen, a friend of mine. 373 00:21:46,718 --> 00:21:53,440 Uh, anyway, th- this is why people argue badly, and we all argue badly. 374 00:21:53,455 --> 00:21:58,113 I wish this was a, a class you could take in university or school to 375 00:21:58,113 --> 00:22:01,852 teach people how to do it, instead of dodging it, instead of avoiding it. 376 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:06,237 I mean, so many divorces, so many challenges in 377 00:22:06,239 --> 00:22:08,480 organizations, so many disasters. 378 00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:12,803 You know, you talk about cockpits, the cockpit culture, not being 379 00:22:12,803 --> 00:22:16,756 able to speak up to a superior, not being able to argue about a thing. 380 00:22:16,765 --> 00:22:21,850 So much problems come from this, and it's so solvable, and this is why 381 00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:24,241 I really wanted to double click on this chapter, and I'd love you to 382 00:22:24,242 --> 00:22:26,481 share four things you talk about it. 383 00:22:26,511 --> 00:22:29,715 Why do people, good people, argue badly? 384 00:22:31,214 --> 00:22:35,104 Well, there's quite a lot of reasons, uh, that it, that, you 385 00:22:35,106 --> 00:22:36,422 know, we

end up in disagreement. 386 00:22:36,423 --> 00:22:40,566 So first of all, we have something called naive realism, which is 387 00:22:40,566 --> 00:22:44,770 where we assume that our perspective on the world is basically right. 388 00:22:45,791 --> 00:22:48,815 we kind of need that just to man- navigate the world, right? 389 00:22:48,815 --> 00:22:51,729 If we assume we were constantly wrong, it would be, you know, exhausting. 390 00:22:51,729 --> 00:22:55,828 We need to basically assume that what we're seeing is true, that the 391 00:22:55,829 --> 00:22:57,763 reality we're experiencing is correct. 392 00:22:58,647 --> 00:23:03,298 but the challenge is that with that naive realism, we assume that when someone 393 00:23:03,298 --> 00:23:06,838 else a- disagrees with us, well, they must be wrong because otherwise, you 394 00:23:06,839 --> 00:23:08,106 know, how would that all square up? 395 00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:09,415 So that's the first thing. 396 00:23:09,416 --> 00:23:14,364 The second thing is because of confirmation bias, we're assuming 397 00:23:15,318 --> 00:23:19,495 that we're not going to see anything that disconfirms our assumptions. 398 00:23:19,582 --> 00:23:23,253 And so, you know, when we're actually in a conversation with someone who's arguing 399 00:23:23,254 --> 00:23:27,487 differently to us, we can sometimes not actually perceive, properly hear what 400 00:23:27,487 --> 00:23:30,986 they're saying, or we can twist it, you know, so that it fits our, our worldview. 401 00:23:31,973 --> 00:23:36,718 Then on top of that, you're in a disagreement, people's attention 402 00:23:36,719 --> 00:23:40,102 tends to be drawn to the areas that you disagree, and that's because 403 00:23:40,102 --> 00:23:41,859 of mood-congruent perception. 404 00:23:42,333 --> 00:23:47,171 You know, we tend to notice things that chime with our, our state of mind, I've 405 00:23:47,171 --> 00:23:50,295 already said that, and that includes actually your mood and your attitude. 406 00:23:50,297 --> 00:23:55,039 So if you're in a bad mood, you're more likely to see things that are, uh, 407 00:23:55,062 --> 00:23:57,122 the negative aspects of a situation. 408 00:23:57,177 --> 00:24:00,057 And so when you're in a disagreement, you're feeling combative, you're gonna 409 00:24:00,057 --> 00:24:04,226 notice the areas that you disagree more than the areas that you agree, 410 00:24:04,227 --> 00:24:05,787 which actually can be quite a lot. 411 00:24:06,618 --> 00:24:11,766 You know, when we are in a disagreement with someone, it's so hard to see 412 00:24:11,819 --> 00:24:13,795 all of these areas that you agree. 413 00:24:14,098 --> 00:24:17,238 So that starts to give us a clue about how we, how we proceed. 414 00:24:17,431 --> 00:24:22,026 And then finally, when we're, , in a disagreement, it's quite likely to 415 00:24:22,027 --> 00:24:27,235 trigger a sense of, your competence being undermined and perhaps your sense of 416 00:24:27,235 --> 00:24:28,809 connection with a person being undermined. 417 00:24:29,398 --> 00:24:33,779 Things that get perceived by the brain as unpleasant can trigger a stress 418 00:24:33,779 --> 00:24:37,948 response, and in that stress response, what I call defensive mode, you actually 419 00:24:37,962 --> 00:24:41,316 narrow your perception, and it's even harder to hear what the other person 420 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:45,547 is saying if one or the other of you or both often, , is on the defensive. 421 00:24:46,188 --> 00:24:48,042 So that's why it's so hard. 422 00:24:48,137 --> 00:24:52,041 But actually, all of those bits of science point towards what you can do 423 00:24:52,203 --> 00:24:56,894 practically to navigate your way very elegantly through any, any disagreement. 424 00:24:56,905 --> 00:24:58,743 That's quite a claim, isn't it, what I've just said there? 425 00:24:58,744 --> 00:25:02,017 But I, I do believe, I've seen this process work again and again. 426 00:25:02,134 --> 00:25:03,345 I'm very happy to lay it out. 427 00:25:04,108 --> 00:25:04,768 Yeah, please do. 428 00:25:04,771 --> 00:25:06,350 I, and maybe we'll finish on that. 429 00:25:06,351 --> 00:25:09,418 I, I just wanted to share a brilliant, there's, an artist, he has a Substack. 430 00:25:09,422 --> 00:25:14,105 It, it called Jonathan Hey, and he, it's called Sketchplanations, so the 431 00:25:14,105 --> 00:25:15,890 idea of explanations through sketches. 432 00:25:16,449 --> 00:25:18,695 And he has one on Hanlon's razor. 433 00:25:18,697 --> 00:25:22,940 And Hanlon's razor has been one of these ones that's so useful for me, which 434 00:25:22,941 --> 00:25:28,456 is never put down to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. 435 00:25:28,819 --> 00:25:33,269 And the example he gives, so in his drawing, it's somebody walking along 436 00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:37,008 and seeing litter all over the path, and kinda like shaking their fist going, 437 00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:40,931 "What an idiot, whoever did that." And then around the corner, they're, they 438 00:25:40,931 --> 00:25:44,997 can see a person who has their bag of, of rubbish that they're putting in the 439 00:25:44,999 --> 00:25:46,906 bin, but it happens to have a hole in it. 440 00:25:47,124 --> 00:25:47,715 So it's 441 00:25:48,581 --> 00:25:48,827 There 442 00:25:48,889 --> 00:25:53,368 And yeah, I know, and, and I just think, you know, if that's, if that's your moment 443 00:25:53,368 --> 00:25:55,985 of pause to just go, "Wait a second. 444 00:25:56,219 --> 00:25:57,626 They're not out to get me. 445 00:25:57,818 --> 00:25:59,566 They're not out to go after my argument. 446 00:25:59,566 --> 00:26:00,856 They're not trying to undermine me. 447 00:26:01,259 --> 00:26:04,002 There's probably an explanation," or they just don't have all 448 00:26:04,003 --> 00:26:05,810 the data, it's so, so helpful. 449 00:26:05,810 --> 00:26:11,103 But then you p- do it brilliantly here to explain how to actually lay this out. 450

00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:14,986 A- and this goes to a personal sense as well as an organizational one 451 00:26:15,187 --> 00:26:15,831 Absolutely. 452 00:26:15,834 --> 00:26:18,910 And actually, by the way, when it comes to Hanlon's razor, my version, 453 00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:22,484 let's call it Webb's razor, is never ascribe to malice what would be 454 00:26:22,485 --> 00:26:24,831 otherwise explained by incapacity. 455 00:26:25,051 --> 00:26:30,098 You know, I think stupidity is in its own, its own judgment, but actually 456 00:26:30,098 --> 00:26:31,806 there's a more neutral version of it. 457 00:26:31,968 --> 00:26:35,167 So let's take that, let's take that philosophy, let's take that spirit. 458 00:26:35,507 --> 00:26:38,764 So the, the technique that, - I've seen work again and again, whatever 459 00:26:38,764 --> 00:26:41,986 the disagreement is, there's five steps, and any one of them 460 00:26:41,987 --> 00:26:43,151 honestly makes a big difference. 461 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,186 So the first step is to articulate the other person's point of view as if you 462 00:26:46,189 --> 00:26:51,825 really like it, and that means saying, "Okay, you think this because of that." 463 00:26:51,906 --> 00:26:54,982 And this is where you're not, you're not half-assing it. 464 00:26:54,985 --> 00:26:57,656 You're, you're not, you're not kind of underplaying. 465 00:26:57,665 --> 00:27:01,432 You're, you're really saying, "Okay, well, if I really agreed with this, what would 466 00:27:01,432 --> 00:27:07,013 I say to explain it?" Even just doing that, as you can imagine, gets you off 467 00:27:07,014 --> 00:27:10,928 the starting blocks because then the other person feels heard, and then you actually 468 00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:13,310 have a chance of a better conversation. 469 00:27:13,662 --> 00:27:17,145 If you're a manager and you're sitting above two colleagues who are 470 00:27:17,147 --> 00:27:22,523 disagreeing, or peers, you can invite them to do that with each other. 471 00:27:22,837 --> 00:27:26,688 That takes a bit of, a bit of trust, but you can also simply say, "Okay, 472 00:27:26,691 --> 00:27:29,384 I'm gonna summarize this person's point of view, and then I'm gonna 473 00:27:29,388 --> 00:27:30,777 summarize this person's point of view." 474 00:27:30,779 --> 00:27:34,086 So there are a few ways that you can use this as s- essentially to mediate or 475 00:27:34,086 --> 00:27:35,841 facilitate other people's disagreements. 476 00:27:36,594 --> 00:27:37,315 So that's step one. 477 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,393 Second step is list all the areas of agreement. 478 00:27:41,315 --> 00:27:42,617 much more than you think. 479 00:27:43,423 --> 00:27:46,826 it could be, you know, history, it could be sh- values, it could be information, 480 00:27:46,829 --> 00:27:51,053 it could be all sorts of things, and it's often, uh, something that we skip 481 00:27:51,055 --> 00:27:56,353 over, and that's really important to act as a base because it does

get submerged 482 00:27:56,357 --> 00:27:59,713 under a disagreement because of that mood congruent perception I was talking about. 483 00:28:00,565 --> 00:28:03,235 you wanna explore, okay, well, where do we disagree and why? 484 00:28:03,255 --> 00:28:05,606 What shaped those perce- uh, perspectives? 485 00:28:06,491 --> 00:28:09,169 You know, it's to your point about the, the bag with a hole in it. 486 00:28:09,361 --> 00:28:13,268 Maybe there's a reason why something is happening or something has shaped 487 00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:17,063 your perception and, and your, your views of what the right approach is. 488 00:28:17,265 --> 00:28:20,350 You know, m- maybe you've only ever seen successes in doing this 489 00:28:20,352 --> 00:28:23,882 particular, you know, piece of work, and the other person has had a 490 00:28:23,883 --> 00:28:25,829 horrible, catastrophic thing go wrong. 491 00:28:25,873 --> 00:28:28,794 Okay, now that's why you might have a different approach to thinking 492 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:29,792 about the right way forward. 493 00:28:30,427 --> 00:28:34,461 And then the next question, which is sort of weird honestly the first time you 494 00:28:34,461 --> 00:28:37,180 hear it, is how could you both be right? 495 00:28:38,974 --> 00:28:43,535 And what happens there is usually, well, maybe you're right in different 496 00:28:43,536 --> 00:28:47,813 situations or different populations or in different, you know, uh, different times. 497 00:28:48,494 --> 00:28:51,460 Um, and then finally the fifth step is, okay, well, what can you do 498 00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:52,893 now based on your common ground? 499 00:28:52,904 --> 00:28:56,291 Because all of those steps have been building that sense of 500 00:28:56,499 --> 00:28:57,957 you're standing on common ground. 501 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,744 You might be standing apart, you might be looking in different directions, 502 00:29:00,744 --> 00:29:04,683 but there is a feeling now that you're on the same ground together. 503 00:29:05,063 --> 00:29:08,583 And it's often the case I've seen again and again, oh, now you can see, oh, 504 00:29:08,584 --> 00:29:10,248 well, actually we could try these two 505 00:29:10,248 --> 00:29:13,948 different approaches, or there's a bunch of stuff we can do even 506 00:29:13,948 --> 00:29:15,992 if we don't just- don't agree on everything. 507 00:29:15,993 --> 00:29:17,345 So let's get going on that. 508 00:29:18,038 --> 00:29:20,765 And it's really beautiful to see it happen. 509 00:29:20,781 --> 00:29:24,384 And it's… works, by the way, in families just as well as 510 00:29:24,385 --> 00:29:26,741 it works in, in organizations. 511 00:29:27,675 --> 00:29:30,709 I'll tell my friend Hayden McMullan about it. 512 00:29:30,867 --> 00:29:31,777 He'll be delighted. 513 00:29:32,115 --> 00:29:33,172 He'll be delighted to hear that. 514 00:29:33,431 --> 00:29:34,818 I'm just finishing my notes here. 515 00:29:34,818 --> 00:29:35,330 Wait a second. 516 00:29:35,345 --> 00:29:37,302 Yeah, just da-da-da, scribble, scribble, scribble. 517 00:29:37,365 --> 00:29:37,620 Yeah. 518 00:29:37,855 --> 00:29:39,880 Caroline, that's absolutely fantastic. 519 00:29:39,884 --> 00:29:41,085 I, I'd love to go deeper. 520 00:29:41,086 --> 00:29:45,813 I mean, just to give people a sense, we've probably covered maybe six 521 00:29:45,825 --> 00:29:51,231 paragraphs of the book there, and, and you can see how it's like a double click 522 00:29:51,252 --> 00:29:54,746 to go deeper on where is the science, what's the bias behind that, what's the 523 00:29:54,746 --> 00:29:57,321 fallacy, and you can build an argument. 524 00:29:57,340 --> 00:29:58,854 And it's so, so useful. 525 00:29:58,885 --> 00:30:03,190 And, you know, I really feel I'm so privileged to talk to people like 526 00:30:03,192 --> 00:30:08,028 you and read your books because when you do it, you realize how little we 527 00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:13,620 know, and also it always keeps your mind open to things like an argument 528 00:30:13,629 --> 00:30:17,592 to go, "Well, maybe there is something I, I can't see." And I, I have so much 529 00:30:17,595 --> 00:30:22,525 empathy for people who are so overloaded at work that they, they can't learn. 530 00:30:22,569 --> 00:30:25,577 They don't… Well, they feel they can't, or maybe they're not rewarded 531 00:30:25,577 --> 00:30:29,300 to, or maybe they are overloaded, or they're not taking the time, and all 532 00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:34,158 these things, and even down to things like breathing exercises and exercise 533 00:30:34,168 --> 00:30:37,109 and taking breaks is so, so important. 534 00:30:37,114 --> 00:30:39,968 So thank you for, for sharing that with us as well. 535 00:30:40,171 --> 00:30:42,874 Maybe you'll tell us where people can find you and find the 536 00:30:42,874 --> 00:30:44,370 book and more about your work. 537 00:30:44,728 --> 00:30:45,386 Oh, thank you. 538 00:30:45,413 --> 00:30:49,932 So my website is probably the best, place to go, which is carolinewebb.co. 539 00:30:49,946 --> 00:30:52,228 That's Webb with two Bs, and it's .co. 540 00:30:52,714 --> 00:30:57,552 And you'll find information about Leadership Intelligence and lots of 541 00:30:57,570 --> 00:31:01,291 readers guides as well to help you make the most of the book, as well as 542 00:31:01,336 --> 00:31:03,788 a chance to subscribe to my newsletter. 543 00:31:03,844 --> 00:31:07,063 If you like the kind of conversation that we've had, you might like the newsletter. 544 00:31:07,247 --> 00:31:09,791 And so I'd love to see you there, and of course, you can always find me on 545 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:11,784 LinkedIn, so happy to see people there 546 00:31:12,343 --> 00:31:14,231 And don't let the accent fool you. 547 00:31:14,304 --> 00:31:18,628 Caroline's based in New York, so if you're looking for her, you're gonna have to fly 548 00:31:18,631 --> 00:31:21,205 her over this side of the pond as well. 549 00:31:21,205 --> 00:31:24,280 But, it's been an absolute, absolute pleasure having you on the show. 550 00:31:24,663 --> 00:31:28,244 Author of Leadership Intelligence, Caroline Webb, thank you for joining us 551 00:31:28,510 --> 00:31:29,390 Thank you so much, Aidan 552 00:31:30,504 --> 00:31:32,524 Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning. 553 00:31:32,574 --> 00:31:35,224 Inside Learning is brought to you by the Learnovate Centre 554 00:31:35,274 --> 00:31:36,614 in Trinity College Dublin. 555 00:31:36,684 --> 00:31:40,334 Learnovate is funded by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. 556 00:31:40,414 --> 00:31:44,784 Visit Learnovatecentre.org to find out more about our research on the science 557 00:31:44,784 --> 00:31:46,494 of learning and the future of work