Trust Physics: Why Most Leaders Get Accountability Wrong의 전체 녹취록

00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:44.720 When I think about accountability in a work setting, especially, I think about how one way that people feel good about going to work and love their job is when they feel like their work matters. 00:04:44.879 --> 00:05:03.199 Uh, when they feel like they're really doing something, their work is contributing to something bigger than them, whether that is the relationships they have on the job or if it's the mission that they're serving at their organization, they really want to contribute to something bigger and not feel like they're just doing busy work that goes nowhere. 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.120 So accountability is really the gift of knowing what the work takes. 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:19.279 If people don't know what success looks like, they may feel like they're just feeling around in the dark without knowing if their efforts are going to be successful or if they're gonna disappoint you. 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:27.600 And so I think we shy away sometimes from accountability, especially from the beginning, because we want to just say, oh, I trust you to do this. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:28.319 This is great. 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:39.199 But if they don't know what the edges are, if they don't know what success looks like, they're gonna spend so much time just trying to find those boundaries that they're never actually gonna get to the work. 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:40.000 Absolutely. 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.000 And right, that's about agency. 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:48.000 That's about, you know, it's it's we tend to think that accountability is somehow synonymous with control. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:52.480 And that if we hold someone accountable, we're trying to control their behavior and they are totally different. 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:56.399 I often talk about and I've written in the past about the gift of accountability. 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:12.720 Like we got to think of accountability as a gift we give people that is us expressing our expectations so that they have the freedom to move inside those expectations instead of finding out after the fact that they failed to meet our expectations. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:26.000 Because if accountability is about telling someone when they failed, not how to succeed and what success looks like, then it is, it's punitive, it's controlling, it's and it's no fun for either person. 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.560 And it and it absolutely ruptures the relationship and makes trust harder to rebuild. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.120 Whereas if accountability is something we practice when the stakes are zero, right? 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:46.959 If accountability is a conversation that begins when there is no rupture to be had, and it starts with curiosity of like, hey, relationship, did you know the edges are here? 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:48.959 Because I didn't want you to wander past them. 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.199 I saw you headed toward the exit. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.360 Did you mean to be headed toward the exit? 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:58.319 Because if you meant to be staying on the dance floor, then here's where the dance floor is. 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.079 And then it's like, oh great, thank you. 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.160 I didn't mean to be headed for the exit. 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:08.399 Um, right, because people don't know, especially when a relationship is new, we have no idea what someone else is thinking. 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:20.959 We make this mistake constantly where we we assume that because we think our thoughts are logical, that other people's thoughts are logical, and other people's thoughts are logical, but the logic is different in different brains. 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:23.199 So accountability is that shared language. 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:23.920 Amazing. 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.319 Yeah, I think this shows up a lot for managers and how managers work. 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:46.399 And I think it's particularly important for them to think about this because management is one of those things that is often thrust upon people as they grow in their career, where we don't get a lot of training for it, but we're expected to um get positive outcomes by being managers. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.240 And uh that also has an impact on the people you're managing. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:59.360 Um, and they are whole people who deserve a positive work environment and yet sometimes they're managed by people who never got the training to know what that looks like. 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:10.800 And so I think this is a really key thing you can do if you are a manager and you want to make sure that you are setting yourself up for success and your employees up for success, because in the end it's the same thing. 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:21.920 Really, what that looks like, what that doesn't look like is saying, okay, well, just do your job and I'll let you know if you're doing it wrong. 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:28.399 You know, this and that often means the manager hasn't really thought through what success looks like or they're not sure. 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:37.759 So they just kind of want to see it at play and then you know, tell someone that they're doing something wrong if it's not quite what you think it should be. 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:47.200 And then it that that target's gonna move because if you don't know what it is, it's there are a lot more wrong options than pa than right options. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.120 Ain't that the truth? 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.720 And you're touching on something that I see happen all the time. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:09:02.240 And I don't think it happens as much in conscience-driven cultures where there is conscience-driven leadership because conscience-driven leaders understand the people they're leading very well. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.639 And so they tend to promote people with an aptitude for management and with an aptitude for people

and communication. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:19.840 But in most businesses, in most situations and cultures, especially in corporate environments, people get promoted as a reward for excellent performance. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:31.600 People get promoted not because they're they they get made manager, not because they are demonstrating any skill at management, but because they are an individual contributor who is kicking ass at their job. 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.279 And so what do they get? 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:38.559 More money, yes, but they also get the one thing they are best at taken away from them. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:48.240 And they are then given this whole new job that they have no idea how to do because an individual contributor is generally not somebody who loved the like group project. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.039 And management is a group project. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:57.200 Like if you're good at group projects, you should be in management because it's about making sure you communicate constantly to everyone. 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:07.919 It's about understanding different people's skills and talents and struggles and conflict styles and navigating all of that to make sure the work gets done. 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.440 And it requires caring about people. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:18.080 And a lot of times an individual contributor is like, please just let me do a really good job and leave me alone. 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:23.120 And then they wind up in management, and all they know how to do is just let me do it. 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:33.039 Or you're doing that wrong, do it how I do it, which most people can't do because really excellent contributors tend to be special in that way, which is great. 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.440 I haven't we heard that all the time of like, why can't you just do it the way that I would? 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.600 Just do it the right way. 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.840 But that hasn't, if that hasn't been communicated, we all have different brains. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:48.320 And if they don't know what the target is, yeah, they're gonna be doing a lot of things that you wouldn't do. 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:49.039 Absolutely. 00:10:49.120 --> 00:11:05.840 And I use I use the Clifton Strengths Assessment for this all the time because it's a really great shorthand for understanding the different thoughts, feelings, and the different patterns of thought, feeling, and behavior that drive people and motivate people and that they operate in because we are all different, right? 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:14.000 Like, and I love it because this is just an aside on strengths and why it's great, is because I grew up I grew up in a circus and a circus is a strength-based organization, right? 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.600 An acrobat is somebody who can do backflips and tumble around. 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.799 That requires a certain body type and size, right? 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.440 Like acrobats have short torsos, long limbs, and they're not very tall, typically. 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.000 That is how they do all the bouncy flippy stuff. 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.159 I would make a really crappy acrobat. 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.320 I would crack my head open because I am not turning over. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.559 I'm long in the torso, on the tall side, you know, broad in the bone. 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.879 It's just not what I'm wired for. 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.720 Um, but I have other talents that are very useful, right? 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:46.799 Like I like to, I like to be in the spotlight, I like to talk to people. 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:48.559 These are the kinds of jobs that I'm good at. 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:58.000 So you can you can identify who belongs in what job by looking at them in many cases in the circus, or by seeing what they perform, like juggling is a skill. 00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.600 If you can juggle or you can't. 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:01.759 Um, if you can juggle, you can juggle better. 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:03.440 We can juggle knives and fire. 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:08.080 We can, we can amplify a skill, but we can't start from scratch unless you're five. 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.519 We assume people work like us because we don't have another mental model. 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:13.600 We don't know what it's like to be in someone else's brain. 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:20.639 And so if we have a language that identifies someone's talent, we can then we can go, oh, your brain works like that. 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:21.279 Cool. 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:22.639 My brain works like this. 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.399 Here's the places we should overlap, here's the places we should, we should not overlap and we should work independently. 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.240 Um, so it's a helpful tool. 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:30.879 That's great. 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:32.080 I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:39.039 And I think it's actually a good segue to think about the kind of key components of an accountability conversation that will really work. 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:48.639 Uh, because it's it's often easy to name what isn't working, but really finding those tools so that a manager can say, I don't, I want to care about people. 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.399 I want to set them up for success, but where do I start? 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.440 I think this is a good place to start and a good place to really think. 00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:04.639 So uh we can kind of break this down, but uh I just want to name them first, is really it takes presence, vulnerability, and repair. 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.039 So let's start on the presence side. 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.720 It's the choice to actively be there in the conversation. 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:17.919 And this is something that we as a society isn't as practiced in as perhaps we used to be. 00:13:18.000 -->

00:13:32.240 Uh, we are noses in our phones, uh, we are easily distracted, our attention spans are shorter because of kind of the the short form videos we're watching and the kind of quick entertainment that we see in our society. 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:40.480 But it's one reason that when you can be very present and when you are really in a conversation, that really matters. 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:46.000 Uh so you're not thinking about what you're gonna say next while they're talking. 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:51.039 Um you're not kind of engrossed in your own thoughts and interpretations of what they're saying. 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.399 You're not making up the story behind what they're saying. 00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:00.080 You're committed to listening and to keep working through a hard conversation. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:07.519 So, you know, it's very easy for your brain just to go wild of, oh, they said this, I think this is why they said it, and this and this and this. 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.759 And now you're building up this story that they're not even party to. 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.279 Um They have no idea, yeah. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:13.679 Yeah. 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:23.679 But if you're present and you're listening and you're asking the questions and inviting them into your brain, uh, then that's a really key aspect of having accountability conversation. 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.879 Do you have examples of that or or other things you'd add to that, Hannah? 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.440 I mean, I think I would tie it to the first step in the accountability sequence, which is curiosity. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:40.159 And I think, you know, curiosity is the touchstone that I think we have to return to constantly when we're trying to do accountability conversations, because you're right. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.879 As soon as there's a story in my head about what's happening, I'm not curious anymore. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:51.120 I'm curious, maybe I'm curious about the story in my head, but I'm not curious about the person and their experience and what's going on. 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:56.480 I think culturally we're at a moment where curiosity is really not encouraged. 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:17.519 And, you know, I think we're, I think in a lot of different turns, whether that it's, you know, in the media or in politics or whatever, we're really encouraged to put people into boxes and to label them and to decide on their behalf who they are and what's going on and why they're behaving the way they are. 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:22.159 And we don't know, we never know why someone is behaving the the way they are. 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.960 And that we have another saying in leadership that gets passed around a lot: assume positive intent. 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:33.440 And assume positive isn't intent is a nice idea, but it's still an assumption. 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:34.240 Yeah. 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:40.000 And curiosity is what gets you past an assumption and to the reality. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:44.240 And the reality could be that this is somebody who isn't going to tell you the truth. 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.759 That's that's an option. 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.679 But curiosity gets you to, keeps you in the present. 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.440 It keeps you in the moment because you're wondering what's going on with them. 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.480 And and I think that like that just connects everything. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.320 That makes you a human in a room with another human or a human in a Zoom or on a phone call with another human. 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.000 And that's really necessary. 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:13.759 You can't do accountability in a way that is about repair and about healing relationships and about correcting misalignment if you're making assumptions. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.080 Yeah, I want to go back to that phrase of uh assuming good intent. 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.720 I think that really protects the status quo. 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:27.759 It puts um manipulative boundaries around what you're allowed to question and what you're not. 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:34.960 Uh and it can put a hold on being present and asking honest and having honest conversation. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.279 Uh so I'm I'm glad you brought that out. 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.480 And it sounds like we have similar thoughts around it. 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080 Yeah, I really enjoyed your face when I said that phrase. 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.519 You were like, uh-uh. 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:46.559 I don't think so. 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:54.879 Because I feel like that's something that we have talked about at SARSUF in the past when we've worked together, is like, you know, it and it's great, right? 00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:02.559 Like I have a kind of counter to that, this intrus physics, and that's something I talk about all the time, which I call mustard, right? 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:09.200 Which is don't because mustard is a great flavor, but too much of it and it ruins everything, right? 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:13.680 Like mustard is the only thing you can taste when mustard is involved most of the time. 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:29.119 And so the this, like one of a great example I have from a client is somebody who is a manager, mid-level manager, high performer, got promoted, did not know how to supervise other people, and was frustrated as hell that she's like, why am I a babysitter? 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.680 I don't want to babysit these people, right? 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.599 Like, why do I have to tell them how to do their jobs? 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.880 I'm like, because you're their manager. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:42.480 It's you're not your job to tell them how to do their job, but it's your job to tell them what doing their job means and then make sure they're doing that. 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:44.799

Like it is your job to hold them accountable. 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.200 But for her, nobody had ever had to hold her accountable. 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.400 She was a high performer, she was really driven, she understood her job. 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:56.319 This was not, but man, she had a story about these people and why they were not doing their job. 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.759 They didn't care, they were lazy, they, you know, like it was all there was this whole story. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:03.920 And I was like, that is just all mustard. 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:11.279 Like, we gotta, we gotta take the mustard out of the situation and go like, go be curious, be like, do you fully understand the work? 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:17.359 If you do understand the work and you're not doing it, then what, you know, what's the close supervision? 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:28.240 You you can't have to do accountability closely in a way where you're checking all the time that they're doing what they're saying they're so they're supposed to do and what they've said they'll do, right? 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:29.759 Like accountability is not always fun. 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:37.759 There are people who don't want to be held accountable, and a lot of cultural training has gone into teaching people how to dodge accountability. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.319 And we talked about this a little bit on our last episode. 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:49.279 We use there's the ways we use language to dodge accountability, there's way we gaslight other people into saying, well, I didn't know or it wasn't clear or whatever. 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:56.640 And so accountability is the structure that keeps people doing the thing that you've agreed on. 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:03.440 And if they continue to not do the thing you've agreed on, that leads to escorting them off of the dance floor. 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:14.880 You know, when you talk about a high performer and how they aren't someone that often has to be held accountable, uh, I think they often are, but they just don't see it that way. 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:29.680 Because I think it's common for a high performer that loves to work and to do things and loves to do it well, maybe centers perfectionism in a way that um can be difficult. 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.119 I mean, or not. 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.480 You know, there's there's just a lot of different traits that go with being kind of a high performer as we think about it too. 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.279 And they can start going down a track that isn't actually helpful. 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:46.160 Maybe they have a manager that knows that they're a high performer, so they need less of a touch. 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.920 And so they start really going at something. 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.319 And it turns out that's not what was needed. 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:59.279 Or it turns out that that was not the right approach, but they're already going down

the road and they are focused on it. 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.599 That can be a difficult accountability conversation, but it's an important one for them too. 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:04.559 Absolutely. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:11.200 I actually, I actually did something, I I didn't do it recently, but it came to it came to a head recently. 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.920 I have a really I hope she's okay with me using this story on the podcast, but I have this really amazing virtual assistant. 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.119 And she is so dedicated and so driven. 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:28.160 And when there is a deadline, she's gonna work, she's gonna work until it gets done so that it's done on time. 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:39.920 And a few times, we've been working together for years, a few times in the past, she's gone over budget in order in terms of hours, in order to hit a deadline in time. 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.359 And that's happened, you know, just a couple of times over the years. 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:44.799 They weren't close together. 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.839 And I had needed the deadline more than I needed the money to pay her. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480 And so I just paid her and I didn't say anything. 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.839 And I thought to myself at the time, I totally like in hindsight, I'm like, dummy, Hannah, why didn't you do the thing? 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.519 Because at the time I was like, I should really tell her, like, tell me before you go over. 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.200 Like, it's not a hard conversation. 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:14.880 Hey, I appreciate your dedication, but I need to know how you know I budgeted for this and if it's gonna cost more, I need the chance to to weigh in on that. 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:26.880 So I've recently referred her to several of my clients who are loving her and she's incredible and she really drives, you know, she she gets the thing done even when it takes a lot of hours, which is admirable and wonderful. 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.960 But she did this with a client who I'm managing the invoices. 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.160 And so she sent me a news. 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.519 She's like, by the way, I went over on hours to hit the deadline. 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.799 Here's my new invoice. 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.680 And I had to say, I was like, ah, dummy, Hannah. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.640 Like, I should have said something to you about this years ago. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.000 But like, you should really, you need to tell the client you're gonna go over before you go over. 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:48.559 Like, right? 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.200 Like, that's just and she felt so bad about it. 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.000 I felt bad for her because I'm like, I caused this. 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:57.200 This is me, this is a me fault moment, right? 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.759 Like, bad Hannah, which leads it back to. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.359 Vulnerability, like I'm the one responsible here because I let her develop a habit I knew would harm her in future professional relationships. 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:10.799 And I said nothing. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.319 It's my fault that this happened. 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.160 And the client is luckily fine with it. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.359 And they were thrilled to meet the deadline and it's all okay. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.079 But like she and I wound up having this long conversation about like, oh no, do I feel bad? 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.440 Should I not charge for the hours? 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:28.400 Like all these things where she was worried about her own integrity in this moment. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:36.000 And I, you know, like, and it was important that I take responsibility for this because I'm really the one who's at fault in this situation. 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.680 I mean, I appreciate you sharing that. 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.240 And, you know, I think that does take mean you have to be present with your high performers too. 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.359 I think it's easier to be a little more shut off because you know they're gonna do well. 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.640 So that kind of goes uh into the presence you're talking about. 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:54.319 But you mentioned vulnerability, which is really the next key component of an accountability conversation. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.319 So why don't we jump into that? 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:10.319 Of vulnerability is really the willingness to name your discomfort and acknowledge your role, just as you acknowledged your role in uh her not knowing that going over on hours is something that has to be addressed before it happens. 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.200 Um, it's okay to admit that this is hard. 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.279 It's okay to be human to your point. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.680 It's okay to say, man, this is really tough. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.759 And, you know, but I think we're gonna get through it together because we always do. 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.160 Um, and you know, in many ways, it gives the other person permission for it to be uncomfortable too, which is really important. 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:30.079 Right, because they can't read your mind. 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:36.960 And if you're in a position of authority, they assume that you're fine and this is easy for you, or you're upset with it. 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:43.039 Like they're gonna make a bunch of assumptions because especially nobody likes to be told they've done something wrong. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.960 And so it's really important, you know, like it's it's hard. 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.759 Every time I have a conversation uh that requires holding somebody accountable, it's uh it's painful, it's uncomfortable. 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.279 Like I was, you know, when I had to talk to my assistant, I was like, oh crap, I feel I

feel bad about this. 00:23:59.359 --> 00:23:59.839 I don't want to. 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:06.000 I've I felt so bad I didn't do it the other times, which is right, like the which is the no the big no-no. 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.480 I'm like, I literally wrote a book on accountability. 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.000 And here is an example of me failing right here in the present moment. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.880 Awesome. 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:23.759 Um, but you reminding them that you're a human so that they can be a human and you can be two humans repairing a relationship, that's that's what matters way more. 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:33.680 You know, there's this the accountability sequence in the book will walk you through the five conversations that need to happen to make accountability work. 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.920 And you can do them perfectly. 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.119 But if you don't, if you're not a human in them, then you haven't done them perfectly. 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:42.799 And you could do them real wrong. 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880 And if you've got presence, vulnerability and repair strong on them on the plate, you are going to be just fine, right? 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.480 Because presence vulnerability repair is what keeps mustard off the plate. 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:53.119 Yeah. 00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880 And I think this is really valuable in that scenario we talked about of a manager that isn't really defining what success is. 00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:08.559 Uh, they need to be a person with that employee so that the employee can say, I don't quite know what the goal here is. 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.440 Can we talk about it? 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.480 And it's possible the manager doesn't know and doesn't have the information they need to know what it is. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.200 That takes vulnerability to say, you know what? 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:18.720 I don't know that yet. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.319 So can we talk through it? 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.240 What does it look like on the ground? 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.359 What uh do we really want to do with this? 00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:26.720 Let's set these together. 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.640 Or I admit I don't know. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.799 And the first time we do it, it may not be perfect, but let's take joint ownership of that. 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.240 This is not you doing something wrong, this is us figuring this out. 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.839 And I think that takes the vulnerability and the presence into being people. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.880 So we've talked about presence, we've talked about vulnerability. 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.400 So you mentioned repair. 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:52.000 So repair is really owning when you get it wrong, naming it, correcting it, keep continuing to go, and it keeps those relationships whole. 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.759 And I those are kind of the three. 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:58.079 And I think together, they're really powerful in any scenario you find yourself in. 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.960 And I think they all really help you be really authentic. 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:01.440 Yeah. 00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:10.079 Well, and repair is ultimately being willing to engage in accountability yourself and recognizing that you that when you make a mistake, right? 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:17.839 Like and owning your part in it and taking responsibility because it's your job as a leader to make the relationship repair. 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:27.359 It's their choice whether they want to stay in a relationship that's whole, but it's your job to make sure the conditions for repair exist and you will make mistakes. 00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:28.799 We will all do it. 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:36.720 Um, and owning when you do and being willing to do the thing, you know, it well could have been that I could have paid my assistant instead of my client. 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:44.079 If my client hadn't had it in the budget, then I absolutely would have eaten that because that's my responsibility, not hers. 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.519 I'm the and I know that I created that problem. 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:54.240 So that's how I, that's an example of how I could repair this situation if it had been necessary. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.240 Luckily, we've got good relationships all around, and it was in the budget this time. 00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:59.599 It's not in the budget next time. 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:00.640 Everybody knows that now. 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.480 We are clear and crystal and great. 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:02.960 Yeah. 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:04.640 No, that's fantastic. 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:10.559 Um, so it sounds like clarity and safety are really key in these things. 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:17.599 Being really clear with each other and having a safe environment to have important, maybe difficult conversations. 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.599 So, how does accountability give you this clarity, this safety? 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.000 Well, I think the clarity creates the safety. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.920 And accountability is is a practice of clarity, right? 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:39.759 Like when when we give the gift of accountability, we're giving people clarity around what's expected, what matters, what success looks like, and what happens if misalignment continues. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:52.400 And this is the hardest part because once you've once you've named a misalignment a couple times with someone, it's really important that you tell them, hey, if this continues, that's gonna lead to the end of our relationship. 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.839 I need that to not be a surprise for you if it happens. 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.640 I we are not to that point yet, but we are at the corner where that becomes in view. 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:08.640 And it's in view for me, so I need to make

sure it's in view for you because again, we want to give people agency, not control them. 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:18.720 And so giving them the information, giving them clarity gives them the option to make the choice that's right for them, which is what creates psychological safety. 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.039 And that's the precursor for trust. 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.319 You can get so busy trying to figure out what's wanted that focus is taken away from why it's being done and what the intended outcome is. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:38.079 So if you ha don't have that clarity, they are never going to be able to hit it because they're so busy just trying to find the bullseye. 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:44.160 Either they're trying to figure out where the bullseye is, or they're trying to figure out how not to, you know, fire into the crowd. 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.319 Like they don't, they don't know right or wrong. 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.240 And you you need to give people both. 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.839 They need to know both where is the wrong way and where is the right way. 00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:02.319 And when we give people both of those things, those gifts of accountability, we give them the clarity of what success looks like and we give them the clarity of what failure looks like. 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.119 Then we get a gift as leaders of their best performance, right? 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.799 Because they can show up. 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:10.400 That is when they know, right? 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:23.759 They know where the dance floor is and they can improvise and give us their best performance because they know the boundaries in what, you know, they know the boundaries of the relationship and they can be whole and bring their whole self to the relationship. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.200 And that's ultimately what we want out of our people when we're conscious-driven leaders. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:47.839 We want them to get to bring their whole self to work that matters to them and perform at a level that is beyond what we can imagine for them, because they're bringing their uniqueness, their energy, their excitement, and their person to this work that matters, not just overall and to us as leaders, but that matters to them. 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.039 And that's like that's engagement, that's performance. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:30:07.039 That's when the magic happens and like true success becomes within reach because people who know they're cared about care about the company and they care about the organization and they will protect the organization from even little threats when they come along. 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:23.200 Like it's really that is when the true magic happens in leadership, is when a person feels safe, knows the expectations, knows how to exceed the expectations and how to um uh what's the opposite of exceed the expectations? 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:24.240 Fail. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.519 Fail. 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:36.720 When someone knows what meeting expectations looks like, what exceeding expectations looks like, and what failing looks like, then they have freedom. 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.039 Like then they have freedom to to show you what they're really capable of. 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:41.599 Yeah. 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.799 No, I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap today. 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.000 Um, thank you, Hannah, for having me on this adventure. 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.680 I want to thank our listeners for coming along with us. 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:57.519 If you're enjoying this, please do uh subscribe on your favorite podcast app. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:06.559 Um, and uh, we would love if you can share it with any friends, coworkers, family that you think could also benefit from being a part of the conversation. 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:07.440 Absolutely. 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:14.480 I mean, I think we I hope we can all agree that the world really needs more conscience-driven leadership and the world needs more trust. 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.000 And that's why I've been writing and creating these models. 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.119 It's why Julie and I are having these conversations and decided to share them with all of you. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.319 So thank you for listening. 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.359 Yes, please share comments or not comments, but reviews are super crazy helpful. 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:34.640 Um, so if you drop a review wherever you're watching this podcast or listening to it, that'd be super. 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.200 Um, and please check out trust physics and conscience-driven leadership at conscience drivenleadership.com. 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.880 We would love to see you around. 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.960 And thank you to Anna Miller, our amazing podcast producer, who just rocks. 00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.000 And it's not me pretending to be a podcast producer. 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.240 I swear her name and my name are just very similar. 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:53.359 And I think that's special. 00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.079 Fabulous. 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:55.440 Catch you next time.