From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations | A Christian’s Purpose의 전체 녹취록

we just have internal discussions are a great time to really uh ground ourselves and hopefully you guys back in really the heart of what we do here at uh Ideas Have Consequences, uh, which is the podcast again of the Disciple Nations Alliance. 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:32.959 So, Dad, would you mind just kind of quickly getting into what we covered today and really just could could you address the problem that we're trying to solve in this podcast? 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:42.399 Yeah, the the video that um that we're going to be discussing today, the title of it is From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations, The Christian's Mission. 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.160 And so this is really what we believe the Bible's theory of change is. 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:51.839 How does the Bible bring about change in this process of redemption that's happening right now in the world? 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:56.000 Um, it's unique, it's different from uh worldly ways. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.319 We're going to critique worldly ways of change. 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.959 You can think of um secular progressives, Marxists, you know, they're always trying to bring change from the outside in. 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:07.519 The Bible always goes from the inside out. 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:12.800 It starts with the human heart, and it has to be done divinely by God's power through salvation. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:14.160 Christians understand this. 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.959 Most Bible-believing Christians believe this deeply. 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:21.839 And yet we're going to critique uh many of Bible-believing Christians because that's where they end. 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.199 They say, you know, the process of change ends once people come to faith and maybe have some basic level of discipleship. 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.439 And we're going to argue, no, that's where it begins. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.720 Um, from there, it's got to ripple out into society. 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.160 And we're going to talk about what does that look like, what's being neglected. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:49.199 Um, and really that, as you said, Luke, this is this is such a great episode because it really is probably the best episode I can think of of all that we've recorded over the years in getting right to the heart of what the DNA exists to do. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:51.759 What is, what does it mean to disciple nations? 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:56.160 How does God bring about change in this world, and what's my role in it? 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:02.959 All of these really basic, really fundamental, important questions are going to be addressed in this podcast. 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:03.680 All right. 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:04.800 Yeah, I'm excited. 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.240 Let's get into it. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:10.879 Well, welcome back to the podcast. 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:16.800 Uh, we're really excited today to be able to talk about a new uh video that we have posted up on YouTube. 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.480 You can find it on our website. 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:27.439 Um, these are a set of a series of videos that get to the heart or the core of the message that God has given the DNA, our ministry, to share with the world. 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.360 Uh they're at the center of our training. 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:34.639 And this particular video's title is From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:38.879 And what it does is it sets out what we what some call our theory of change. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.839 You know, how how do we see change, transformation, if you will, in this world? 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:47.360 And we're trying to answer that question as biblically as we can. 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:56.240 And uh it's ironic in some ways that uh that when we share this video often with people, they'll go, oh, yeah, that I agree with that. 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:04.399 And yet, um, as we get into the topic today, you're gonna see that this is an area that's been dividing the church for at least a hundred years, if not more. 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:28.160 Um and on one side of that divide are people that uh put the emphasis, and here I'm I'm speaking specifically to evangelicals, Pentecostals, people that are kind of more or less Bible-believing, um, but they've had this idea that change, the the Christian's role for change in this world, this fallen world, is to preach the gospel, to do evangelism, proclaim the truth about salvation. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:38.800 Um, and that in a sense, what's that once that's done and people are saved, and maybe with adding you know some minimal discipleship, everything just ripples from there. 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.759 There's really nothing more beyond that that we need to do. 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:49.279 That is the sum total of our mission in the world is to proclaim the gospel, see people saved, one to one to faith. 00:07:49.279 --> 00:08:08.160 I would add to that that I think behind this it in a sense is often a kind of a pessimism that actually often goes unspoken, but um the pessimism is it goes something like this that in this fallen world, we can't really expect to see much change. 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.680 Uh you know, things probably are gonna get worse and worse. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.639 When they get really bad, Jesus is gonna come back, you know, there's gonna be the great tribulation, he comes back. 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.839 But what we can expect is things to get worse. 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:28.079 And what we should do is try to rescue people, you know, out of the sinking ship, so to speak, uh get them into the lifeboat. 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:34.000 In fact, different evangelists over the years have used these analogies uh and get them to heaven. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:47.759 Uh, we're gonna make the argument that this mindset of escape, of a kind of lifeboat, abandoned ship, the ship being this

fallen world, uh isn't isn't biblical nor is it accurate to historic Christianity. 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:52.159 It's kind of a new way of thinking that probably came about in the last hundred years or so. 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.240 But the emphasis to the great credit of these folks is on salvation. 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:58.559 They need that we've and amen to that. 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.639 People need to be saved. 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:06.799 But um, but that that's where it kind of is the beginning and the end of the theory of change, if you will. 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:14.000 Now, in reaction to that, uh, you have another group, and this would be represented more by the mainline, a lot of the mainline denominations. 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:20.320 And uh I I often think of the Episcopal Church uh or uh in the United States here. 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:28.720 If you go to an Episcopal service, try a typical Episcopal service, and I've been to many, uh, you don't hear the gospel preached. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.080 Um there is no invitation to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:34.240 It's just not done, it's not believed. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:42.320 Uh rather, the emphasis is on uh kind of what I would call social justice, or we need to be you know doing what's right. 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:53.840 Often that is political, and it's you know, in the area of um, yeah, it involves good works on our part, but often it involves structural change through government, policies, programs. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:05.759 And the idea is that our theory of change is if we can do what's right, what's good, um then, you know, kind of at a structural political level, then the world will become a better place. 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.159 But what's neglected is the gospel. 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.559 It's just kind of given up on, if you will. 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:16.080 Um again, not true to historic Christianity um at all. 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:30.399 Um it it kind of borrows from the Enlightenment progressive idea that human beings are basically good and that they're perfectible, and if they just have the right conditions, then we can kind of create the kingdom of God here on earth, so to speak. 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:38.720 Um and so the DNA isn't going to critique both of these, and we're going to say they're both in a sense wrong. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:46.399 I would say the first one is less wrong because it holds on to the truth, the fundamental truth, that people are sinners and need to be saved. 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:52.559 But what it's neglecting is significant, and that's where we're going to kind of critique that first one. 00:10:52.559 --> 00:11:05.840 So that's what we're setting out to do in this video, and um, we're trying to offer what we consider to be a really biblical, basic biblical theory of change, um, again, from changed hearts to changed nations. 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:12.559 The gospel

changes people, and changed people can change society, said the great theologian John Stott. 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.679 God's kingdom advances from the inside out. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:22.480 It starts with an inward revolution in the hearts and minds of people before it begins to transform society. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:31.840 All genuine social change starts with inward transformation, not with political revolutions, policy changes, or any other form of social engineering. 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:36.159 Jesus spoke about this inward to outward revolution in his parables. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.360 He said, His kingdom is like a mustard seed. 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.279 It is tiny, almost invisible, and hidden beneath the ground. 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:48.399 But it has the power to grow into a mighty tree that impacts everything around it. 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:53.360 It begins in the human heart, the great beachhead in the advancement of God's kingdom. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:58.399 The heart must be transformed before anything else, for it is the wellspring of life. 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:06.879 Through faith in Christ, our rebellious hearts of stone are replaced with hearts of flesh that beat for God and desire to do his will. 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:12.399 God's kingdom advances by means of God's power working in and through us. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.159 The next step in the advancement of God's kingdom is the mind. 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:19.279 We must be transformed by the renewing of our minds. 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:23.039 We must take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.360 We must think biblically about God. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:30.879 The lies of the dark kingdom must be discerned, rejected, and replaced with the truth. 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:39.200 From these divinely renovated depths, our whole life is progressively transformed to increasingly reflect the character of the king. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:45.440 From here, the kingdom of God moves outward, impacting society and culture, starting with the family. 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:53.120 The family is the most basic social institution, ordained and structured by God for the purpose of advancing his kingdom. 00:12:53.120 --> 00:13:02.480 As servants of the king, we are to carefully obey his commands regarding sexuality, procreation, and the way we nurture, discipline, and educate our children. 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:12.799 With families won over to God's kingdom, and with children trained to love the king and to walk in obedience to his ways, the kingdom advances into every sphere of society. 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:24.320 For in the words of the famous Dutch theologian Abraham Kuyper, there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry, mine. 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:42.000 Therefore, wherever we may stand, and whatever God calls us to do, or in whatever it may be, we are constantly standing in the presence of our King, employed in his service, and determined to strictly to obey him and seek his glory. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:51.120 A culture where people are treated as precious image-bearers of God, a culture of order and beauty, of creativity and excellence. 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:56.240 Until our King returns, God has called each of us to push back the domain of darkness. 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.879 This is a privileged task for all Christians. 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:03.360 Our King has a unique task that he has prepared for you to carry out. 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:10.399 Make it your life's purpose to faithfully accomplish this task, so that in the end you may hear him speak these words. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:13.759 Well done, good and faithful servant. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:14.799 All right. 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:31.360 As Christians, that can be a very, very broad question. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.360 It can also be simple for our lives. 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.519 Dad, you wrote the script to this video. 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:46.960 When you wrote this script, what was, I mean, you addressed this a second ago in the intro, but a little bit more concisely, what is the what is the problem we're seeking to solve at the Disciple Nations Alliance when we create a video like this? 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.799 What is that question mark we're trying to uh help people answer? 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:52.480 Yeah, thanks, Luke. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:15:12.879 I think the biggest one is, yeah, what I already mentioned that um for a lot of evangelical Christians, which is our primary audience, Bible-believing Christians, they fully understand, you know, when I talk about a theory of change in the world, uh, they fully understand that beginning part, that part about being born again uh through faith in Jesus Christ and having renewed hearts. 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:16.000 Um what what the problem is, isn't that. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.480 The problem is that it tends to end there. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:31.519 And so when we talk about the renewed minds, the putting on the biblical worldview and living it out in society, uh starting with our families and going outward from there, that's almost entirely neglected. 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.320 And again, I have my beliefs on that. 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:40.000 I think one is that people just assume that once people are saved, everything begins to change. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:55.600 But probably more than that, there's this this kind of honestly, if I'm honest, it's it's the the theory of change is kind of an anti-theory in the sense that things really aren't going to change in this world, that things are gonna get worse and worse. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:57.759 So I'm trying to push back on that as well. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:12.559 Now, let me clarify that when I say that things um aren't gonna get, you know, that things can improve

and change, some people uh will c kind of assume that I'm talking about creating some kind of perfect utopia, kingdom of God, on this side of Christ's return. 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:13.919 No, I don't believe that. 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.039 Uh Jesus said, in this world you will have trouble. 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.360 Uh we live in a fallen world. 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:26.240 That's not gonna uh that's not gonna be done away with until he comes back and sets things in order. 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:31.600 Okay, but what that doesn't mean that is is this kind of typical evangelical mindset that things are just gonna get worse. 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.960 And we don't see it that way in uh history. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.440 You know, we don't see things just getting worse and worse. 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.440 What we see is uh both. 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:46.559 We see uh improvement, change, positive change, as well as the continuation of sin, brokenness, and evil. 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:54.159 Uh but uh so uh the pessimistic view I think is honestly dishonest and not correct to the Bible. 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.679 We wouldn't apply that, like for example, to our own family. 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.720 Well, I'm supposed to live out the truth of the Bible in my family, but I really don't think it's gonna make much of a difference. 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.160 My family's just gonna get worse and worse and become, you know, break break down and become, you know. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.559 No, we don't typically think that way or act that way. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:19.599 We tend to think if we apply God's principles in our families, that's the most basic social sphere, uh, then there's gonna be some good fruit that's gonna come from that. 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.039 And that's actually what happens. 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:28.000 It doesn't mean that our families are gonna become perfect, they're not, but there's gonna be good fruit for obedience to God's word. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:28.960 That's what we're saying. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:34.400 And that doesn't just apply to families, that applies to communities, and that applies to nations as well. 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:35.839 And that's what we see in history. 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:38.079 So it's it's simple, it's as simple as that. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.720 Again, there is that side of the church. 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:47.759 Honestly, this side doesn't really represent our core audience, kind of the side that's really abandoned the gospel. 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:50.559 Um, but in a sense, this video is critiquing that as well. 00:17:50.559 --> 00:18:02.559 And it's saying, hey, listen, if you put your hope in some kind of social revolution um or some kind of government program or something other than the internal transformation of the human heart, you know, give it up. 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.839 Nothing's gonna happen. 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.559 And the

history's proven that over and over again as well. 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.680 Like we are fallen people dead in our sins. 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:13.200 We're not gonna see any kind of change without the gospel. 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.519 So that's that's our critique as well. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:15.839 Yeah. 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:17.599 Yeah, we'll get into that in the video. 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.799 Uh Nelson, before you give some just kind of general setup points, um, I mean, I like the title of this video, pat on the back there. 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:29.039 I named it, but From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations, a Christian's mission. 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.880 I mean, what is the Christian's mission? 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:35.440 Uh, the way we answer that here at the Disciple Nations Alliance is by just quoting the Great Commission. 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.839 Jesus' call to us right before he left Earth. 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.079 Go and make disciples of all nations. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.599 That's the Christian mission. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:43.920 From changed hearts to change nations. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.000 So this video really is kind of what how how do I fulfill the Great Commission? 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.319 This video is trying to answer that question for you in the simplest way as possible. 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.400 I love the quote uh by Leslie Nubigen that we quote all the time here at the Disciple Nations. 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.799 Leslie Nubigan, sorry. 00:18:58.799 --> 00:18:59.839 Sorry, Leslie. 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:10.559 Uh that we quote all the time here on the team uh when it's talking about kind of this this wrong view of the Great Commission, where we take out the word disciple and we just switch it out for convert. 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.680 Um but Nubi Nubegin, Nubigin? 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:14.480 Nubegin. 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:28.640 Nubegin says, quote The church is not meant to call men and women out of this world into safe religious enclaves, but to send them back into the world to bear witness to the reign of God. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.519 So there's something for us to do here in this world. 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:35.119 It's not about just a safe ticket to heaven, it's about something to do here and now. 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.799 Uh Nelson, for you when you watch that video, what are some of the first thoughts that pop to mind? 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:48.480 Yeah, I think I I like what they just said that because um I remember I remember Denis Dongoy, our good friend in Africa there, right? 00:19:48.480 --> 00:20:05.519 Um one of our DNA videos, one of the first NA videos, he was part of it, and he he said something like We are good at preparing people to go to heaven, but we're not but we're kind of failing in preparing them to live on earth as we wait for heaven. 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:12.160 Um and I think that's one of the main points, and the

back to the point of making converts, making disciples, right? 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.960 Uh the great commission about the command is to make disciples. 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:23.200 Um and we have in some ways turned it into making converts. 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.200 And as again, back to the conversational metrics, that's much easier to measure. 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.599 Also, talk about missionary work, right? 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:34.319 And and how we report back to our missions, organizations, and to our partners back home. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:21:00.079 It's so much easier to have a number where we say there's this is the number of converts, these are the number of churches that have been planted, and people um and as Vishal Mangaladi says the last hundred, two hundred years, the church has believed in this lie that the realm of the spiritual and religious belongs within the walls of the church on a particular day of the week, and the church has nothing to say to society and to culture outside. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.359 So this is all part of what we're talking about here, right? 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:13.359 We have done something with this that has really uh uh robbed us, uh robbed us from flourishing in our mission. 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:19.759 That includes, of course, the individual, the heart, the the mind that needs to be renewed, right? 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:31.440 Because we come with our minds filled with uh Satan is a liar, he's the father of lies, and we live before and he's he's our he's the Lord, he's he's the master before you come to Christ. 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:38.319 And once we come to Christ, all those lies need to be washed out, and and that's what God's truth does. 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:43.440 The the heart is converted, but then the mind needs to be renewed, purified with truth. 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:59.680 And then as that happens, it's so natural that we become these witnesses outside, not only in terms of proclamation of the gospel, which is key for conversion, there is no sustainable transformation without going through the door of redemption of what God. 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:01.839 Christ did on the cross for us. 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.680 But that is, as we say, there is the beginning really, right? 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.400 Of transformation inside heart. 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:33.039 And then it moves outside, and then we become this with our renewed mind with a biblical this idea of a biblical review, then we become these individuals in our marriages and families and neighborhoods and communities and society that will uh being being well discipled, we will be able to understand what God's ways are and what our ways are. 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:52.400 And instead of running our ways, we start to say, God's ways actually they they they make my life and my society to flourish, and that discipleship of culture to align culture and society to God's ways that He gave to us from design, from creation, for us as individuals and for us as societies to flourish, right? 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:59.200 So those are the first thoughts that come to my mind when I when I when I think about this whole challenge that we have, right? 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.559 Yep. 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.119 That was a great summary of the entire video. 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:11.599 But now let's now let's break it down a little bit into a little bit more small bite-sized pieces, just getting into each one of those ideas. 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:21.519 Uh so I'll play the video here and then we'll we'll pause it throughout the video, take a second to respond, and hopefully pull as many practical application steps as possible from this. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:23.119 So let's get into it. 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:29.759 The gospel changes people, and changed people can change society, said the great theologian John Stott. 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.880 God's kingdom advances from the inside out. 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:39.680 It starts with an inward revolution in the hearts and minds of people before it begins to transform society. 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:49.039 All genuine social change starts with inward transformation, not with political revolutions, policy changes, or any other form of social engineering. 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.359 Jesus spoke about this inward to outward revolution in his parables. 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.559 He said, His kingdom is like a mustard seed. 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.480 It is tiny, almost invisible, and hidden beneath the ground. 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:05.599 But it has the power to grow into a mighty tree that impacts everything around it. 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:10.640 It begins in the human heart, the great beachhead in the advancement of God's kingdom. 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.599 The heart must be transformed before anything else, for it is the wellspring of life. 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:24.160 Through faith in Christ, our rebellious hearts of stone are replaced with hearts of flesh that beat for God and desire to do his will. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:29.279 God's kingdom advances by means of God's power working in and through us. 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:46.880 I mean, we've already been talking about this, but really practically, why do you think when you meet Christians who don't connect their faith to everyday life, to every part of life, where does that come from? 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.119 I know some of it's from a lack of teaching. 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.039 Um I would say probably most of it. 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.279 Let's just go around the horn and answer this question. 00:24:53.599 --> 00:25:00.960 Well, I I want to go, Luke, we're talking about the segment that we just watched, which I think in some ways you're jumping ahead to the next segment about worldview. 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.799 This one is uh really about our our theory of change. 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:13.599 And the big

point that we make here in the beginning of the video is that it has to become, it has to begin inwardly, uh, that human beings need to be born again. 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:23.039 They are fallen, they are sinful, um, they uh cannot bring positive change into the world um without an inward revolution. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:31.440 That word revolution was purposely chosen here, that God wants to see a revolution in a sense, a kingdom revolution, but that has to begin with a revolution in our hearts. 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.839 And this is where I think evangelical Christians, uh, we certainly would agree, would agree with us. 00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.359 Yes, that's true. 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:52.079 But I I uh the reason that I want to start there is because we still live in a world, especially in the West, since the progressive era of the of the mid to late 1800s, where this idea hasn't been affirmed in the culture. 00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:02.480 It's been just the opposite that um if you want to see change in the world, um you begin outside of the person in the society itself. 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.559 You have some kind of like the French Revolution. 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:05.440 We've got to overthrow. 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:11.519 If we overthrow that king, if we overthrow the ecclesiastical rulers, we can create a utopia. 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.440 Uh we see the same exact thing in New York City today, right? 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.720 All of Marxism and communism is based on this idea. 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.559 It's an overthrow, a reworking, a deconstruction at the level of society, and not just Marxists. 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:34.559 I mean, a lot of enlightened liberals and progressives would say if we just got the right policy, if we got the right politician, this mindset puts our hope in politicians, politics, the state. 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:40.319 If we just can tweak things, get things right at that level of politics and policy, everything's gonna be great. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.759 Um, that's the that's the modernist progressive mindset. 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:46.720 It's been around for now 150 years. 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:48.720 It hasn't completely gone away. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:53.440 I think there's been a lot of, now there's, I mean, certainly there's a lot of skepticism towards it, certainly. 00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.160 But but what the Bible does is the Bible says something radical that needs to just be really affirmed and underscored. 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.640 God wants to see change in this broken world, okay? 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.359 That's for sure. 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.240 Okay, again, we may disagree with a lot of evangelical friends here. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.720 God does want us, he's not content with the brokenness and the injustice of this fallen world. 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.640 He wants to see change, all right? 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.519 And it's not just

a change that he's gonna bring about when he comes back. 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:17.039 He wants to see it now. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.279 But that change isn't gonna happen. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.599 This is the critique of the church, the truth to this modernist idea. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:25.440 It's not gonna happen unless people are born again. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:26.160 They're sinful. 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.680 Like it's just not gonna happen. 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:32.880 There has to be a revolution in the heart before there can be any kind of change in the society. 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.319 So that's the simple point that we're trying to make here at the beginning of the video. 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.160 I would just add one more thing. 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.359 I think the the Bible does talk about this change, this process of change is something that's small. 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:45.920 It's organic, it's small and grows. 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:50.480 So it's the imagery is Jesus all uses this all the time, the growth, the seed. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.960 It's it's tiny, it's small, it's going to grow. 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:53.440 Okay. 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.759 And I think that's so important for us to realize. 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:57.200 He used that imagery. 00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.920 Something that's small, it begins inwardly. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:00.799 We don't see it. 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.680 You know, you can't see inside somebody's heart. 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:04.799 But God does. 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.440 And God, by the way, God is the one that changes human hearts. 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.079 That's another really important point to bring about here. 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.200 When we talk about a theory of change, it has to begin with God. 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.079 It has to begin with something supernatural, not something I can do. 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:17.920 I can't change your heart. 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:23.039 God can, and he does that through the power of the Holy Spirit, through regeneration. 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.359 Um, that's what that's the work of God. 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.680 And that's where change begins. 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:31.039 It has to begin with God, with this miracle of the changed heart. 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.000 But then it's got to grow. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.839 It's got to be, it's got to this organic growth, and we'll talk about that next. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:41.359 Yeah, I mean, it that that final point of how this is really God's work is so important to keep in mind. 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:47.680 You mentioned a couple examples of how people try to enact change in this world that are ineffective and very harmful. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:49.440 Marxism's the perfect example of that. 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:53.200 What they tried doing there with the French Revolution, another good example. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:59.680 Um, what a lot of people try to do when they see countries in poverty, they try to fix it without actually affecting the human heart. 00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:09.279 They just try to slap a, you know, a bureaucratic solution on it, which is usually a bunch of food or a bunch of money, but without actually addressing the hearts that are involved there. 00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:14.160 Christianity is unique in the sense that it's not forcing, it's only offering. 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.599 It's offering a better way, it's offering salvation, the free gift of salvation. 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.279 God's offering it to us, respecting our freedom that He gave us. 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:30.400 I think of a lot of other religions, you know, Islam's the perfect example of they're trying to force by the sword a lot of times um their their their belief system on people. 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.359 That doesn't work. 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:39.359 That doesn't have long-term uh impacting changes because it's not actually it's it it hasn't captured the hearts and minds of the people. 00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:47.599 It's yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying is so important right now, Luke, and I just want to underscore it because I think, you know, this is kind of we're talking about theory of change. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.039 Uh, and the Christians' theory of change is completely different. 00:29:51.039 --> 00:30:04.000 The the way that it happens is completely different than let's say a Marxist revolutionary or a Muslim or any other religion, which which tends to uh focus on force, coercion, uh, you know, censorship. 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.160 We're gonna, we're gonna tweak things, we're gonna silence our critics, we're gonna create the false narrative, whatever it is. 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:15.599 We're gonna we're gonna somehow figure out a way of turning the dials and switches so that we can impose. 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.720 Christianity never is about imposing. 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:19.599 Never. 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.759 And if it is, if you ever see it, it means it's it's it's a wrong form. 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.960 It's the wrong vision. 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:28.480 It's being well, it's being untrue to the Bible and the and the model of Jesus Christ. 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.920 It's always about showing, look, this is true. 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:33.839 It's better, it's good. 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:40.640 And there's something so powerful about that because when people are changed by seeing something like that that they want, I want that. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.240 Um, then they're changed from the inside, right? 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:51.039 When people are changed through external force or coercion or fear, it doesn't actually touch their inside. 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:55.359 You know, it's like, okay, I got to keep my mouth shut or I'm gonna get thrown in jail or whatever it is. 00:30:55.359 -->

00:31:02.319 Um that doesn't really change society, but Christianity has the power to change people from the inside through the power of God. 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.079 It changes their affections. 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.279 I love God. 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:08.000 I want to please him, I want to do his will. 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:13.119 So it's always about showing, showing a better way, showing a true way, a beautiful way. 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.920 It's very powerful because it draws people. 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:17.200 That's how I became a Christian. 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:21.279 I saw a group of Christians praying in the morning, having devotions. 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.279 They had joy in their face, they had true community, and I wanted it. 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:27.119 I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm missing out. 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:27.680 I want that. 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:29.039 Whatever they have, I want that. 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:31.680 That's the way Christianity changes and grows. 00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:33.839 Nelson, what are your thoughts on this? 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:40.960 Yeah, uh, a few things, so many things that we you you good things there, um, Scott. 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:47.440 One of the first things I think is we talk about this idea of the kingdom coming uh on earth as it is in heaven. 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:49.279 Jesus, the Lord's prayer, right? 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:58.799 And even this language of kingdoms, some people should say, well, I can't even relate to that because there's no no system of government these days that uh is is a kingdom. 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:04.079 Jesus is using a word that's very appropriate to the times that he was living in. 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:09.599 And to bring it to these days, uh, this idea of kingdom is really has to do with the idea of government. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:23.519 Rule, of God's rule and God's government being brought to our lives as individuals and to our societies so that they can flourish as it was God's original design from the beginning. 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:32.640 Uh the other thing is uh um we talk about this life of faith as evangelicals, Pentecostals, and as I said, most of our audience comes from those two two sides. 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:41.200 And uh uh I I remember John White, he's a Canadian actually, uh, lived close to the uh seminary that I think when I started studying Canada many, many years ago. 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:50.160 John White, he's a psychiatrist too, and he used to say faith is a human response to a divine initiative. 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.680 As Luke was saying, there is God's partner is our part. 00:32:53.680 --> 00:33:00.480 And this life of faith, we are responding to God, I mean to God's design, to God's revelation. 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.640 Uh that that's the life of faith that he calls us to live by. 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:06.319 And and so we are agents. 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:16.799 So I think this whole idea of the when we talk about transformation, there is the individual, the agency that the individual has to open the heart, for the heart to be transformed. 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:22.640 That's the that that's what we're saying here, the theory of change, it starts inside, it starts with the heart. 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:34.400 If the heart is not transformed, as you said, Scott, you can go to the idea of revolution or whatever it is that we we uh if it starts in us, it it didn't start. 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.640 At least it's not gonna be sustainable, right? 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.039 And boy, isn't that a lesson we should have been learned? 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.200 We have learned by now, but we haven't learned that lesson. 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.440 We keep trying to impose it from the outside in, and it never works. 00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.200 And then back to the DNA teachings, right? 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.319 Roots and fruits. 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:57.599 Well, you want to start with the fruits, but you never if you never deal with the roots, you're not changing the truth, right? 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.480 Um so so we have agency, the individual. 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.160 So so talk talk about uh the struggle to connect uh our faith with with everyday life. 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.719 It has to start with transformation of the heart. 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:14.000 Uh this human response to God's initiative of salvation of the heart. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.440 But salvation is so much broader than that, then it starts to go, right? 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:24.639 But but the struggle also comes, I think, because of uh of course, of course, the culture discipline the church. 00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:31.840 The struggle that we have to connect our faith to everyday life, it has to do with how our culture has been pressing us, right? 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.760 And saying to us that our faith has nothing to say. 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.559 That's a private issue. 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:44.400 It's it's right, and again, back to what we said, uh Christianity is not a private faith, it's a public truth. 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:47.519 But we keep believing this life that it's a private faith. 00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:56.800 So so the culture keeps keeps adding to this struggle between uh to engage our faith with everyday life. 00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:03.119 Culture keeps feeding that to keep us believing that it is a private faith. 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:05.039 And then there's the church, right? 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:16.480 The church has because of that also, because culture has been pressing so much in the last century or two centuries, like you said, even from mid-19th, 18th century. 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:21.920 Um there's the church, the church has reduced the mission to inside, right? 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.400 Okay, this uh it's too much. 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:34.960 That's not our arena to

deal with society and the struggles and the evils, so we deal with what is inside, we withdraw in a sense, right? 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:45.199 Um and we are inside and and so so the the I I think to put all this together, as Stephen Garber says, we are all implicated as Christians. 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.599 We are all implicated. 00:35:47.599 --> 00:36:06.480 How to how to look and see the brokenness, um and knowing what we know, still love God's people, the people that God created in his image and societies and nations, so that we what am I what am I gonna do about it? 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:08.000 I am implicated. 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.159 We are all, you all have agencies, right? 00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:21.360 We are implicated with that, and as and as Eugenie Peterson, a professor at Region College, to say too, there's no private uh uh belief or action. 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:26.239 Everything we do, right, it has implications. 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:27.760 We are implicated. 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:39.039 So so this idea of us as individuals, the culture pressing us, the the how the church has reduced emission, all of this feeds to that struggle of connecting our faith with everyday life. 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:40.400 It starts with our agency. 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:41.360 Yes, we have agency. 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.400 I hear you bringing up kind of a new point here, Nelson, but I also think it's really important. 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.320 It's an area where I continue to hear a lot of misunderstanding in the church. 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.719 When you talk about our part or agency, the the role that we play. 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:59.280 I, you know, I think it's I mentioned that salvation ultimately is God's doing. 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:00.880 You know, He's the one that saves us. 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:02.960 He I cannot change your heart. 00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:03.840 God can. 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:15.199 Um, and um but then that can lead to this idea that uh anything that uh contributes to positive change in the world really has to be done by God. 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:28.559 And that idea gets carried too far, and the idea that I have a role to play is kind of diminished, you know, that that no, the kingdom advancing, uh I, you know, the idea is that I have nothing to do with that. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.360 That's all God. 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:32.000 God brings his kingdom, I don't do anything. 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:44.159 And then you can, you know, on the opposite side, you could you could kind of have this deistic idea or this kind of social gospel idea that it's all up to me, it's up to up to society, government, whatever. 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:46.480 God doesn't really have a role to play in it. 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.840 Um I think that both of these are incorrect. 00:37:49.840 --> 00:38:01.679 I think that the the correct ideas that uh biblical ideas that um and we see this by the way all the way

back in the Garden of Eden, when God creates human beings in his image and gives them dominion, gives them rule. 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:07.119 So God, the king, is going to choose to share his rule with human beings. 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:13.599 And I feel like that same thing can be carried over into the process of uh reconciliation and redemption in the New Testament. 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.039 God is the lead, he's the one who leads the whole process. 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:27.599 It's it's him in the lead, it's his power, but he calls us, he gives us the privilege of joining with him, and we have a responsibility therefore to join with him and to do what we can. 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.079 That's the agency part uh as well. 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.960 So it's not good if we say, Oh, it's all up to God. 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:35.440 I just kind of I don't have a role to play in this. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.039 No, that's not biblical. 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:41.360 That would be unbiblical and unfaithful to your calling. 00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:42.320 God has called you. 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.000 We're gonna get into that later. 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.639 And that's why I like John White when he says it's the it's a human faith, right? 00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:50.639 It's a human response. 00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:51.679 That is our partners. 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.320 That's right. 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:53.599 But it is a divine initiative. 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.039 God takes the initiative, he's in the lead, he's the lead partner, right? 00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:58.239 Yeah, absolutely. 00:38:58.559 --> 00:38:59.199 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.840 And also I like you, you remember Bob Osborne. 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:09.039 I like what Bob Osborne says about he puts these two with his students, he puts these two things together, freedom and order. 00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:11.679 And he asks the question, right? 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:17.599 Uh uh, how how would you like to deal with both of those together? 00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:24.719 And then they have the discussions, and they always come to this too much freedom without order leads to anarchy. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:29.280 Too much order without freedom leads to totalitarianism. 00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:38.480 So he ends up saying the only way to put those together for for you to flourish is to come under the lordship of Christ. 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:39.280 Where there is both. 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:40.239 Because that's right. 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:49.599 Where it is both, both freedom and order, maximum freedom, as much as a human being can take, maximum order, because we need to work with that, right? 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.719 So so it it is, it is our part, of course, and but it is a divine initiative. 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:56.960 It's got God is the great initiator. 00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:58.559 Yeah, no, that's right. 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:07.199 Yeah, and that's why I think at the end, when we stand before Christ, you know, um, there's the image of well done, good and faithful servant. 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:11.519 If we if we do our part and if we're faithful, you know, that's kind of the reward. 00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.960 And our response to that isn't, yep, I did it. 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:22.320 No, our response to that is I could have done nothing without you, Lord Jesus. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.679 You get all the honor, a hundred percent of the glory. 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:27.679 That's the that's the Christian picture. 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:28.079 Yeah. 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:28.559 Yeah. 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:29.760 But the privilege, right? 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.280 The privilege God that He calls us to work with. 00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.239 It's the privilege. 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.239 That's the way we need to see every day. 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:36.800 Yes. 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:37.519 That's right. 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:38.239 As a privilege. 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:39.599 He's gonna do something. 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.920 And we're gonna get into this later in the video, but that you have a role to play, that you have a providential role. 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:52.400 You actually, God has a part for you to play, as it says in Ephesians, He's prepared good works in advance for you to walk in. 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.119 And so, anyways, I'm getting ahead of the video. 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:56.079 Yeah, sorry. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:57.760 This is such a fun discussion. 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:04.400 Um, I mean, and and back to just this basic theory of change we have as Christians, this is the narrative of the entire Bible. 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:10.000 A lot of people break it down to the four big chapters creation, fall, redemption, consummation. 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:13.760 After the fall, though, God institutes a theory of change. 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:19.920 So creation, fall, and then God says to Abraham, here's my theory of change to help this world that's broken and fallen. 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.360 You are gonna, I'm gonna raise up your family to go and bless the nations. 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:24.000 That's right. 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.960 But unfortunately, because there is not that heart change available through the saving work of Jesus. 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.480 That's gonna come later, right? 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:30.880 Yep. 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:38.960 The the the people of Abraham, Israel tries to bless the nations, but they can't do it because without changed hearts, you can't change nations. 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.599 That's right. 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.559 But then Jesus comes, he saves us, that's the redemption. 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:48.400 And now, unlike the Old Testament, we have the freedom to actually enact God's theory of change to do what? 00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:49.519 Bless the nations.

00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:51.360 Same same same mission. 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:52.960 Disciple the nations. 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:56.719 You know, that's just the same thing, different words in the New Testament. 00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:58.800 But now our hearts are changed. 00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.360 That's right. 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.239 So that's the change. 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.760 This is where we live now. 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.159 What an opportunity that I hope we don't miss to go and bless the nations. 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:06.559 Amen. 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:11.519 And just this is the basic story of the entire Bible until the consummation when all things are made right. 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:18.239 But during this time we have the changed hearts, we have the ability to have our hearts changed because of Jesus, and now we're called to go and change the nations. 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:26.800 So it's this is just the basic story of the whole thing, and missing that is just such a such a small vision. 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:28.639 Anyways, let's hop back into the video real quick. 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:32.079 The next step in the advancement of God's kingdom is the mind. 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:35.119 We must be transformed by the renewing of our minds. 00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:38.960 We must take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.199 We must think biblically about God. 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:46.719 The lies of the dark kingdom must be discerned, rejected, and replaced with the truth. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:55.119 From these divinely renovated depths, our whole life is progressively transformed to increasingly reflect the character of the king. 00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:55.920 All right. 00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:00.400 So now we're moving from the idea of from changed hearts to changed minds. 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.840 Uh, I guess my my basic question here is why why is there an order there? 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:05.199 Hearts first, then minds. 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:06.880 Is there supposed to be an order? 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:08.719 And if there is, why? 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:10.639 Yeah, that's a good question, Luke. 00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.639 I think there is an order to that. 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:19.119 Um the renewal of the heart, I think, is is a is a divine work of God. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:27.920 But it's interesting when people come to faith in Christ, their hearts are renewed, they are saved, they're regenerated, brought from death to life. 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:36.639 But what I've noticed is that there, while their minds begin to be changed, uh, it's only the beginning. 00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:49.360 It's not like new believers immediately put off whatever cultural beliefs or ideas or philosophies that they've held all their lives, and then immediately have this complete, full biblical worldview, this biblical understanding of things. 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:50.880 That's not the case. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.480 Um, that part actually has to be worked at. 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:56.159 Uh, it has to be taught. 00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.320 This is in the realm of discipleship. 00:43:58.320 --> 00:43:59.760 And by the way, I think this is. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.159 This is for most evangelical Pentecostal Bible believing churches. 00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:08.880 This is where we get into error because this is where neglect begins to happen. 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:09.199 Okay. 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:17.440 Again, as you've said, Nelson, kind of the metrics of success end with people raising their hand and saying that they've been saved. 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:19.599 Uh, that's where we rejoice, success. 00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:22.000 You know, we've done our work, it's great. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.920 But uh what getting what's what gets neglected is discipleship. 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:41.199 And we're talking here about n, you know, again, not any kind of discipleship, but a very specific kind of discipleship, a discipleship of the mind in a biblical worldview, a bib the full biblical story of God, creation, fall, redemption, consummation. 00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:42.639 And I think that's so important. 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:47.760 Again, so much of our discipleship is about concepts and ideas, theological ideas. 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:59.199 That's all good and true, but it's not ever taught, or it's uh usually not taught in the context of the broad story of reality, the story of reality, the biblical story of reality. 00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:04.960 And as Christians, as people, people before they become Christians, they live in a story. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:08.800 They live in an animistic story, a secular story, postmodern, you name it. 00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:10.239 They live in a story. 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.559 And that story, that worldview, that mindset has to change. 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.960 I've noticed it doesn't change automatically. 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:23.119 God doesn't do it like divinely, like boom, now you you fully have a Christian mind. 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:24.880 That's a lifelong process. 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:26.400 It has to be done intentionally. 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:29.199 The church has a role to play in discipleship. 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:30.480 We have a role to play. 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.639 This is highly neglected. 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.239 In my, this is my critique of a lot of evangelicalism. 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:37.599 Is this part's neglected? 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:41.440 Nelson, you've used the imagery of gears, and I think that's really helpful. 00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:46.159 The kind of the driving gear, if you will, kind of this mechanistic idea, but I think it's still very helpful. 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.239 This driving gear is the changed heart. 00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:52.159 That's the, that's the one, that's the

that's where all the power comes from. 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.480 That's where it begins, the changed heart. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:05.679 But that's to connect to another gear, that's the changed mind, and yet that's to connect to yet a third gear, and that's the the obedience to that, the living out of that in a way that brings change in society. 00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:09.679 Those three gears are meant to be going moving together. 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:13.920 And yet we've disconnected the first and the second gear. 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:18.880 And this is really kind of the DNA's critique and challenge to the church. 00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.320 This needs to be done. 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:40.800 We need to disciple people in a biblical worldview, uh so that their false understandings about what does it mean to be human, about ultimate reality, a human nature, about the source of resources, or whatever it may be, that false understanding is replaced by the by a true one. 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:47.360 Yeah, and and I and the one of the reasons I I and that comes from Discipline Nations, the book, right? 00:46:47.360 --> 00:47:02.239 And and all these images that I I like, these images and images that that portray this kind of idea, uh Scott, because for me one of the centers, one of the centers is integration. 00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:14.079 We are so we we have in many ways followed our postmodern culture so much, and one of the words that best describe our postmodern culture is fragmentation. 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:22.800 We fragment, we separate, as we said, we separate with the and we put in a sequence novel at first. 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.960 I need to evangelize and the the person needs to say yes to Christ. 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:29.199 Then I start to decide with that person. 00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:39.360 And and and sometimes if they uh they acknowledge that we need to be witnessing society and for the transformation of society, then that comes next. 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.440 And it is not it is an integration. 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:44.159 I mean, God planned for all of this to be an integration. 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.000 That's what being human actually is. 00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:47.440 Yes, we're integrated being human. 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:50.159 That's back to being truly and fully human, right? 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:52.239 All these things are going together. 00:47:52.239 --> 00:48:08.239 The the in a in in in in in the original design and ultimate design from God, the mind, the heart, everything was working out, and that and we are creating, we are creating culture, we are creating artifacts, we're making life work and flourish. 00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:11.280 But we live in a broken uh fall is a reality. 00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:14.719 But redemption brings this integration back, right? 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:18.880 That now the heart, the mind, the service in society, and discipleship. 00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.519 We talk about discipleship, and we add the word again. 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:23.119 We say holistic discipleship. 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:25.519 That's getting at that point of the job. 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:30.880 Integration, and that's just to remind us because we have abandoned it is discipleship period. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.639 But we need to add we need to qualify, yeah. 00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:39.920 We need to qualify, not to remind ourselves that it is an integration of things, right? 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.719 The heart. 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:42.880 Again, the three cogs together, right? 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:56.719 As the heart is changed, the mind needs to needs to be renewed, and and we need to be servants in society to see our society discipled to align with God's ways and flourish, right? 00:48:56.719 --> 00:48:58.159 So individuals change hearts. 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:06.719 So it is this integration of things that I really sometimes we miss or you want to break and put in a sequence. 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.119 Um, and then we do a disservice into our mission. 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:09.920 That's correct. 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:10.239 Yeah. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:10.880 Yeah. 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:22.079 I think of uh Nelson, the disciples of Jesus, often when we talk this way about you know the changed hearts and changed minds, because you think about the followers of Jesus who walked with him, they had changed hearts. 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:37.840 They had hearts that beat for Christ and loved Christ, but they still had kind of false ideas about who he was all the way up until the res, you know, the uh crucifixion, resurrection, until he appeared to them, you know, and said, you know, he Jesus often made the comment, do you still not understand, right? 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:42.000 Do you still think in this false worldly way, you know, even after you've been with me? 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:52.960 So, you know, if if the people that walked with him, you know, in in the flesh kind of were prone to having false ideas about reality, uh, how much more us, right? 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.400 So but Yeah. 00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:57.519 Yeah, this this may be a little bit off the topic, but maybe not. 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.440 Some people talk about Peter and his three conversions, right? 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.480 I mean, he met Jesus, and here's a conversion, right? 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:07.840 But then he he betrays, he denies Jesus. 00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:09.599 So Jesus asks him, Do you love me? 00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:11.440 They say second conversion. 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:18.159 And then he's at Cornelio's house, uh, and and and God converts him to the nations. 00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:20.960 Uh, so there's all these conversions going to be like. 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:24.079 You're thinking wrongly. 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:31.440 My my plan of redemption is going to extend beyond the Jewish

people to the to all the nations. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.920 Uh, and and he had to he had to understand that. 00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:41.360 And I take heart in that because for me, in my own life, this process of worldview transformation has been like that. 00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.440 It's not something that happens overnight. 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:45.199 That can happen through redemption. 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:48.880 You know, Lord Jesus, forgive me a sinner, have mercy on me. 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:50.559 I accept you as my Lord and Savior. 00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:57.119 There's a true immediate uh result to that, the justification, born again, new heart. 00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:01.440 And it, you know, many things happen almost instantaneously with that. 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:17.440 The renewal of the mind in my own experience is this kind of drip, drip, drip little by little, you know, where I'm changing my mind by God's grace and strength and the help of fellow believers and um through the truth of the Bible, just renewing my mind with the truth of the Bible. 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:28.000 You know, it's it's this drip, drip, drip change from what I used to have, which was a very secular, materialistic, individualistic mindset common in the West, to now much more of a biblical mind, you know. 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.360 And I I'm not there yet, right? 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.960 I mean, it's still changing, right? 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:33.199 There's still this work that needs to be done. 00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:39.920 But but the idea that I want to get across in this video is that has to be understood and has to be very intentional. 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:48.400 And churches have to disciple at the level of worldview, not just at the level of theological truths, but at the level of worldview. 00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.000 And that has to be done intentionally. 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:51.280 And I think we're neglecting that. 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:58.639 And Barnes says as much, you know, in his research, you know, we can see that people love Christ and are in church, but they don't have a biblical mind. 00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:01.280 That's basically the thrust of his research. 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:02.559 Yeah. 00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:11.199 And I like what our the DNA friend aturokuba he keeps reminding us that this is a this change of mind, right? 00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:14.400 Worldview is a lifelong ongoing process. 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:18.719 Really, he says it's it's so it's keeps like you said, Scott. 00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:27.280 And and the other thing that he's he uh that Barna says, you mentioned Barna, he he said the the the need for us to start early with two. 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:28.719 Absolutely, yes. 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:29.280 Right? 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.480 Because if you think an auto, he already comes. 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:33.440 I already kidnapped. 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:34.079 It's really hard

to do that. 00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:36.079 That room is deeply established, right? 00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:36.800 Yeah, that falls. 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:39.599 All right. 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.000 Okay. 00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:41.039 Luke, what do you think? 00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:43.519 What are your thoughts on this section? 00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:45.679 Oh, I'm enjoying the discussion here. 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:54.800 It's it's it's interesting to see how many times we make this mistake of trying to separate these though, into you know, focusing on the heart only or the mind only. 00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:55.119 Right. 00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:56.639 And it you we can never do that. 00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:58.239 There's there's pitfalls on both sides. 00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:03.280 I think of how many people though try to find wisdom without a regenerate heart. 00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:06.559 It's a story of every most philosophers throughout history, right? 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:07.039 Yep. 00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:12.800 They'll they'll look at like the book of Proverbs and they'll say, Oh, what a lovely resource of principles that I can apply into my life. 00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:18.719 I'm gonna try to do all these through grit and willpower, and if I can do them all, then I'll be a wise man. 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:21.760 It's like, no, you're forgetting the first chapter of Proverbs. 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:30.000 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the regenerate heart, the soft heart towards the Lord, the respect for the Lord, the love of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:35.679 And I think it was Solomon himself that said the heart is the, you know, the um, what is oh shoot, that famous verse. 00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:37.599 The heart is the wellspring, right? 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:41.199 He he he talked about the heart being the wellspring, it's the source, yeah. 00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:41.760 Uh-huh. 00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:42.800 Yeah, exactly. 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.440 Guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of your life. 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:50.079 I think that was the verse, and I I don't have the reference, but it's guard your heart because it's the wellspring. 00:53:52.079 --> 00:54:06.719 Um, or even as Christians, sometimes we do this, we kind of separate like head knowledge from our heart, and we we we almost treat you know orthodoxy or theology like just a list of principles that if we can memorize these all, then I'm a good Christian. 00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:11.599 And it's it would but without the soft heart towards the Lord and the the relationship with the Lord. 00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:18.320 Francis Schaefer once said, biblical orthodoxy without compassion is surely the ugliest thing in the world. 00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:34.880 And kind of in drawing that that parallel there is the compassion, that soft heart for the world and for the Lord needs to be tied to our orthodoxy, otherwise you're gonna end up with this kind of like pharisaical, you know, uh whitewashed wall or whitewashed tombs kind of kind of person. 00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:37.360 So you just connecting this is so important. 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:38.480 It's a one-two step. 00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:45.760 And you can never yeah, and if I could add, Luke, I think this is something that Jordan Peterson has said that I really agree with, just fully agree with. 00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:52.400 He said, you know, that we all people live by and civilizations live by stories. 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:56.719 Um they have a story of reality and they live by that. 00:54:56.719 --> 00:55:01.360 Uh we're God made us in a sense this way, you know, we are storied people. 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:18.239 Um and yet I think a lot of our discipleship neglects that story aspect and it assumes that if we just uh kind of deal with principles, as you were saying, or truths and memorize those, um, then we then kind of job is done. 00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:26.000 But the st my observation is that you can actually memorize some of these truths and principles, but you still may be living in the false story. 00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.760 In other words, you have to change the story, you have to tell the true story as a story. 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:35.679 Again, Jordan Peterson's point, but I think it's also just true of the Bible. 00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:37.840 The Bible itself is a story. 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:51.280 So um I th I think biblical worldview discipleship is in some ways what I'm arguing here is the is the process of changing the story from a false story to a new story, not just memorizing truths or principles. 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:56.960 Um the the you can do that, and that's not bad, but it's something we're talking about something deeper here. 00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:58.000 Go ahead, Nelson. 00:55:58.400 --> 00:55:58.559 Yeah. 00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:06.559 Yeah, I was gonna say, and when there's I mean it be it's so deep for me that when you look to the Bible to the and to the grand story of the Bible. 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:07.280 That's the thing. 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:16.079 I mean I you you can go to different uh theological institutions and come out of them with this whole all the systematic theology. 00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:17.920 Let's let's talk about systematic theology. 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:22.239 We have all these blocks where you study God, but where do you integrate those things? 00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:22.800 Exactly. 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:25.119 That's what that's what the story does, is integrate them. 00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:33.920 That's the story, and that's what we the DNA does as well, is to bring us back to this grand story of the Bible, the grand story of God in the Bible, right? 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:37.760 That and and and the grand story of God in the Bible is God Himself. 00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:39.119 The story of God, that's right. 00:56:39.119

--> 00:56:39.360 Yeah. 00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:51.360 The the written word, the revelation is nothing more, nothing less than God Himself putting it in a written form, who he is, and revealing, that's what we believe in revelation. 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:53.840 He reveals himself to us, right? 00:56:53.840 --> 00:57:05.360 And and so the whole idea of the written word, the grand story of the Bible, and then we have this logos that he manifests himself in Jesus, his presence among us, he incarnates, right? 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:07.039 And then there's the Holy Spirit. 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:09.920 We talk about changed hearts, renewed minds. 00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:17.760 That God is present right now within us, working this changed heart, working this renewed mind. 00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:21.840 That's not it again, it's uh ours is a response. 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:40.079 But it is God's work, and and there are two parts God's part and our part, but it is it is to God taking the initiative, and that and that's why uh we mess it up by by isolating ourselves and trying sometimes to think that we are the ones who are gonna do these things, change hearts, that's right. 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.119 Uh uh right, uh renewed mind. 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:56.079 Uh it is our response, it it is our part, and such necessary, and those things have to be moving together so that our societies can flourish based on God's ways, God's look at Psalm 19, 119, right? 00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.559 Look at Psalm 119, it's full. 00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:12.639 Uh I I I like I I I I like to read Psalm 19 and the verse of the message, and the Eugenie Peter says, How can a young person live a clean life by uh carefully reading the map of your word? 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:17.760 Uh so there's a map that God has established for us to flourish, right? 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:29.199 Um so so the whole Trinity involved, the grand story of the Bible, the Bible written the Revelation, the incarnation, Jesus, the Holy Spirit now uh coming and being with us, right? 00:58:29.199 --> 00:58:30.800 So we are not alone in this. 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:32.960 And I will I have not left you alone. 00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:37.599 And Nelson, uh, for our listeners who are not aware, Nelson is our team Pentecostal. 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:44.880 And when he when he gets onto the Holy Spirit, you know, because because Luke and I are not Pentecostals, he always dials it down and tries to be nice to us. 00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:47.679 But I I just want you to dial it back up, Nelson. 00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:50.159 You know, we're talking about the power of God, right? 00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:51.599 We're talking about the very powerful. 00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:55.519 So just be full Pentecostal here, Nelson, when you talk about the Holy Ghost. 00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:06.960 That's that's another discussion that as Pentecostal have taken that word power, and we have been we have been saying for so long, it's

power for sanctification personal and it's power for evangelist proclamation. 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:09.679 But power is a dynamic, the word dunamis. 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:12.639 I I'm I'm still trying to unpack that. 00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:19.599 There is a dunamis, there's a whole dynamic talk of forces that comes from heaven to earth to know. 00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:22.079 Anyway, that's another discussion. 00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:23.280 Preach, man. 00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:24.000 There you go. 00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:26.800 Preacher Pentecostal. 00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:33.519 All right, let's let's get into the the let's just go through the final segment of the video here. 00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:38.400 This is where we're really gonna dive into what this looks like, how to live this out in practical ways. 00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.239 This is the theory of change lived out. 00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:42.480 We we unpacked in a few steps. 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:46.559 And uh for you guys listening, I know this is an audio-only podcast. 00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.880 On episodes like this, I do feel bad that it is because this is a really cool video to watch. 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:52.480 It's really beautiful, really well done. 00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:56.639 Our our friend Samuel Felix, who's an animation artist down in Brazil, made this video. 00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:01.760 So we highly recommend that you guys, if you have a second, go and watch this video right now or after the episode. 01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:04.320 Again, it's on YouTube and it's linked down in the show notes. 01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:10.480 So uh you'll get a lot more out of the video if you're able to see it uh with all of the visuals that are connected to it. 01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.119 So, anyways, let's let's hop into this final segment here. 01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:19.519 From here, the kingdom of God moves outward, impacting society and culture, starting with the family. 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:27.199 The family is the most basic social institution, ordained and structured by God for the purpose of advancing his kingdom. 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:36.559 As servants of the king, we are to carefully obey his commands regarding sexuality, procreation, and the way we nurture, discipline, and educate our children. 01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:46.800 With families won over to God's kingdom, and with children trained to love the king and to walk in obedience to his ways, the kingdom advances into every sphere of society. 01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:58.480 For in the words of the famous Dutch theologian Abraham Kuyper, there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry, mine. 01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:16.000 Therefore, wherever we may stand, and in whatever God calls us to do, or in whatever it may be, we are constantly standing in the presence of our King, employed in his service, and determined to strictly to obey him and seek his glory. 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:25.199 A culture where people are treated as precious image-bearers of God, a culture of order and beauty, of creativity and excellence. 01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:30.239 Until our King returns, God has called each of us to push back the domain of darkness. 01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:32.880 This is a privileged task for all Christians. 01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:37.440 Our King has a unique task that he has prepared for you to carry out. 01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:44.400 Make it your life's purpose to faithfully accomplish this task, so that in the end you may hear him speak these words. 01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:47.840 Well done, good and faithful servant. 01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:54.320 Okay, so yeah, that unpacks kind of the the the outward ripple effects of a changed heart. 01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:55.920 I just wanted to pull up really quickly. 01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:02.800 On our website, we have this this page called Our Strategy, uh, where it outlines, it really outlines this video well. 01:02:02.800 --> 01:02:06.239 Um you can find it on disciple nations.org. 01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:21.039 I'm just pulling that up right now because we have this um diagram that's a bunch of circles, and uh it all starts in the middle, in the bullseye with spiritual regeneration, but then it ripples out, like we just said, into the mind regeneration through our worldview. 01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:23.599 And then that, of course, will affect our character. 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:27.920 Once our heart changes and our mind changes, that's gonna affect who we are, our character. 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:34.880 And then if our character changes, the people around us most close to us will notice that and be affected by that transformation as well. 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:49.519 Those are usually our f our families or our very close communities, and then from there the next step is uh our our communities, our societies, uh, and then when those are affected, uh our nations are affected. 01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:56.159 And that's really the the kind of imagery of how to disciple a nation as we unpack it here at the DNA. 01:02:56.159 --> 01:03:02.480 Um, anyways, guys, uh in that last segment, it started with the family and then it rippled outwards from there. 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:04.639 Um why why does God start with the family? 01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:09.039 Why are uh I mean in the Bible it's interesting how many times God uses families. 01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:12.400 I think of I think of Noah, I think of Abraham, I think of David. 01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.920 He uses families and family lines and his redemptive mission. 01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:16.960 Why does he do that? 01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:34.800 Well, I think it goes back to the creation, you know, Genesis 1 and 2, that God creates uh Adam and Eve as individuals, but then he brings them together in marriage and you know, be fruitful, multiply is the very first command that he gives to Adam and Eve.

01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:37.199 Uh in other words, make families, create families. 01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:59.280 And uh Darrow has often kind of said there's um uh that that that this very uh aspect of the union of a husband and a wife, the creation of a family, there's something of the trinity in that, and that God isn't uh, you know, uh a un uh a single monad, but God is a trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:08.320 Um and so when he creates human beings in his image, um just one man isn't going to uh fulfill all that it means to be made in the image of a triune God. 01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:14.239 It's uh there needs to be something bigger and broader, and and um that includes man, woman, marriage. 01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:23.119 Now I I have to be careful and and because I I know that there God also calls some people to be single, and that doesn't mean in any way that being single doesn't Jesus himself was single, right? 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:32.639 So it's not it's not a diminishment of the reflection of the image of God, but God uh the point simply is that God created families from the very beginning, and that was part of his work. 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:39.360 He wanted the world to be filled, and so and in even this is kind of an inside out, you know, ripple effect. 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:49.599 Um and then, of course, in redemption, this is like where we get to Genesis 12, that process of redemption where God comes to Abram and He starts talking to him. 01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:52.800 Abram's married at this time to Sarah. 01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:56.079 They have no children, but he's going to talk about families. 01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:59.119 I'm gonna make you, I'm gonna, you're you're gonna have an offspring, right? 01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:04.000 You're gonna have children, um, you're going to be the father of great nations. 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:14.880 So you can see God's plan, his process of redemption, even that is going to uh be carried out through families, clans, tribes, and nations, the the nation of Israel. 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:16.960 And, you know, not just Israel. 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:18.880 I think that's just his model, his plan. 01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:20.719 And I'll just speak personally for a second. 01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:26.800 This one has meant a lot to me because when we I, yes, people say, Scott, you know, what do you want to do? 01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:28.400 I say, I want to change the world, right? 01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:29.920 You know, I feel called to change the world. 01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:31.199 I want to transform the world. 01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:32.559 You know, that's that's just who I am. 01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:34.159 You know, I want to see the world made better. 01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:35.280 I always have. 01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:37.519 But that's a big deal. 01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:39.360 Like, that's how do you even begin to do that? 01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:40.960 The world's a

big place, right? 01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:44.000 I mean, much less my own state, city. 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:45.360 I mean, these are huge places. 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:46.320 They go beyond me. 01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:47.760 What can I really do? 01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.559 Uh, and it can feel overwhelming, like, I don't know. 01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:52.400 I don't really know what I can do. 01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:59.360 But when you bring it down to the family, this is really the most basic social unit, and that's what we talk about in the video. 01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:02.960 Um, The most basic social unit of any society. 01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:12.400 And by the way, if I could just add a little bit of caveat here, this is why uh demonic religions and ideologies like Marxism, what do they want to destroy first? 01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:13.679 The family. 01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:15.039 That's what they want to destroy. 01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:16.239 And they want to destroy it. 01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:20.239 To me, that that strengthens my faith because it says this is God's plan. 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:21.280 This is so important. 01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:22.639 This family is so important. 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:24.800 This is God's central to God's plan. 01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:28.239 So, anyways, it's something that I can get my hands around, right? 01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:39.679 As I've often said, I don't know if I can change the church, the community, the nation, but I can, you know, put the flag of God's kingdom down inside my home and I could say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, right? 01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:45.599 I'm gonna, I'm gonna live this out first and foremost in my own life, then in my marriage. 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:49.199 And by the way, the Bible has a lot to say about that, marriage. 01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:52.000 And then in my family, how I raise my children. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:53.519 The Bible has a lot to say about that. 01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:56.000 I don't think any of that is by accident. 01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:02.400 And by the way, all the warnings about um sexuality in the Bible, when you put it in this context, it makes a lot more sense. 01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:07.679 It's not just God being a God who says, Oh, I don't want you to have any fun, you know, no, don't do that. 01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:11.360 No, God has something very precious and special in the family. 01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:14.800 And sex is central to that because it's sex and procreation, right? 01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:19.119 But it's, you know, don't mess it up because this is so central to my plan, right? 01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:20.480 Does that make sense? 01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:23.199 So those are just a couple of thoughts there, I think. 01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:35.360 That's why the DNA, we emphasize um when people, when we get to the point of our training of really putting this into practice, we say, before you go out and try to change the world, start, you know, what it think about your own marriage family. 01:07:35.360 --> 01:07:44.880 Even if you're not married, you know, the the people that are in your family, your brothers and sisters, the most basic relationship, your father, mother, are you living it out? 01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:48.159 Are you living out the biblical worldview in those most basic relationships? 01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:54.559 Because if you're not, you can't bypass it, you can't jump over that to get to some greater impact. 01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:55.440 It's just not gonna work. 01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:57.840 You've got to start in that most basic sphere. 01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:04.000 It was um, I know a lot of times, like you were saying, Dad, we have these big dreams of changing the world. 01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:11.920 And yet the smallest applications sometimes and the most simple applications sometimes are the most profound and impactful, and God's gonna use those in big ways. 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:22.479 We a couple weeks ago met a guy at a lake up here in Oregon who didn't really realize this, but he's had a big ripple effect in the world, I would say. 01:08:22.479 --> 01:08:30.960 Well, not huge, but a significant ripple effect in the world for God and his kingdom that he didn't really know about uh until this day when we met him at a lake. 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:45.760 This is a guy that discipled you, Dad, when you were in high school, I believe, in young life, uh, and was uh instrumental in your conversion, I believe, and um your early years of discipleship, um, back whenever that was in the 80s. 01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:48.159 And we're at this family reunion. 01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:52.880 We have the whole family, the whole Allen clan there at the lake, uh, all my siblings, there's five of us. 01:08:52.880 --> 01:08:57.680 We're in the stage, we're all getting married and having kids now, so we're pretty big group when we're walking around. 01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:04.159 And we just randomly bumped into this guy who dad I know you've connected with recently, but not much since the 80s. 01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:06.640 And uh you just kind of introduced the family. 01:09:06.640 --> 01:09:09.439 Hey, here's my kids, uh, here's here's their kids. 01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:17.840 And I think it clicked in his head, like, oh, you know, God, you used me to evangelize to this young high schooler. 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:22.960 You know, a lot of us serve in youth ministries, and we just think, oh, it's a bunch of stinky, annoying high schoolers. 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:34.960 Yes, maybe, but 50 years from now it's gonna be a very different vision if one of them changes their life and then they go on to start a family, disciple their family, starts new families, they're discipling their families. 01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:36.880 That's the ripple effect of these kind of things. 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:52.000 And in this case, a lot of that worked through the

family, and it's just one guy in the 80s talking to another guy who's in high school, something as simple as that, and now you know, fast forward, and we see this much bigger ripple effect. 01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:00.159 And I thought that was really cool because he I I could see it in his eyes, it clicked, and you he was like, you know, you could see how much that shook him in a good way. 01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:02.159 Yeah, thanks for bringing that up, Luke. 01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:19.279 You know, uh I that was really moving to me to to meet my friend Rick there at the lake, um, you know, just kind of again with you know, unexpectedly, and his wife Debbie, and um, I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Rick for for the way that he loved me and discipled me as a young believer. 01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:23.680 And um, yeah, I could see him almost tear up when he saw you. 01:10:23.680 --> 01:10:28.000 And I'm so proud of you, Luke, and I'm proud of all my children, grandchildren, so proud, so grateful. 01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:33.520 But I said to him, this gets to your point, Nelson, earlier about I said, Well, all glory to God, you know, all glory to God. 01:10:33.520 --> 01:10:34.720 And that's the truth, you know. 01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:49.199 If anything good has come in our family, you know, it's it's purely because God has had grace on Kim and I, and we've tried, you know, in his strength to put principles into practice, you know, starting in our own marriage and family, not perfectly by any stretch. 01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:51.279 We still I make mistakes every day. 01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:54.319 But the but the putting it into practice has borne good fruit. 01:10:54.319 --> 01:10:55.600 I will be the first to testify. 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:57.119 I said, Well, praise be to God. 01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.960 And Rick's response kind of funny was like, Well, I think you had something to do with that, Scott. 01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:07.359 It's kind of like you know, so this is this is your agency aspect as well, Nelson, isn't it? 01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:07.760 Right. 01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:11.119 You know, so um yeah, thanks, Luke. 01:11:11.119 --> 01:11:12.159 That's that's beautiful. 01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:13.760 That's the there you go, right? 01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:14.239 There you go. 01:11:14.239 --> 01:11:15.520 That makes it practical. 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:21.920 That makes that it's a tangible example of how and we talk in the name the the forest in the seed, yeah, right? 01:11:21.920 --> 01:11:22.880 We talk about that. 01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.680 This is a tangible explain, and that's kingdom. 01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:28.399 And it's like the video that shows the seed, right? 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:29.680 That's planted. 01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:33.439 It starts with a seed, it becomes this this fruitful tree. 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:36.880 By the way, just on that, Nelson, I love that about family. 01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:41.199 It's so powerful,

this idea that being it's it's multi-generational. 01:11:41.199 --> 01:11:49.279 It's one of the very few institutions that is that way, you know, that the in that the impact of it ripples through generations. 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:51.920 Um, you know, children, grandchildren. 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.000 The God, that's the way God created it. 01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.119 Uh and to have a vision, I I just always challenge Christians. 01:11:57.119 --> 01:11:59.439 Do you have a vision for that if you're married? 01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:05.439 You know, are you thinking about your great grandchildren, your great-great-grandchildren, and the impact that they can have for the kingdom? 01:12:05.439 --> 01:12:09.359 Because that's going to change the way you know you treat your wife and your kids. 01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:09.920 Yeah. 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:10.800 Yeah, yeah. 01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:12.800 The forest, the forest in the seed, right? 01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:13.920 We need to think like that. 01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:24.399 And and I I I mentioned before Vaclav Havel, the the the Czech uh communist dissident and first president of the Czech Republic, right? 01:12:24.399 --> 01:12:36.560 The new formed, um, he he used to say with God, we talk about significance, us as humans having significance, meaning, purpose, and responsibility. 01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:39.680 Um that's the whole idea of responsibility. 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:41.439 Where do I have agency? 01:12:41.439 --> 01:12:50.800 Because God created me, part of being creating God's image is that representative aspect of the Imago Day, the image of God, where we have agency. 01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:52.079 We are agents, right? 01:12:52.079 --> 01:12:53.920 Where do we have agency? 01:12:53.920 --> 01:13:04.319 I used to say to the kids in poor communities in Brazil that we worked with and we still do work with poor communities in Brazil, but at that time we were on the field, directly involved with them. 01:13:04.319 --> 01:13:24.079 And one of the things that we always said is that you are not just an object for for manipul for uh abuse and uh and and so on, you're not just a s uh for manipulation, not just a subject for for government programs to manipulate numbers and you you're a subject of you are an agent. 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:26.560 God created you in his image to be an agent. 01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:28.640 So where do I have agency? 01:13:28.640 --> 01:13:33.279 Where can I start to plant that seed that will become the tree, the forest and the seed, right? 01:13:33.279 --> 01:13:44.239 And then back to our example is uh someone who invests in your life who and you come to Christ and then there's a whole family, children and grandchildren, right, being impacted by that. 01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:50.159 So this whole idea it is seeking his glory, of course, because he's the king, as you say, Scott. 01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:54.000 Jesus is our king and we're seeking his glory, not ours. 01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:58.800 Uh but it is this idea of living quarantine, he live in his presence. 01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:06.319 It's it's and it's not only interesting, it's not only that we live in his presence, it's that he is constantly present. 01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:07.600 Right? 01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:08.399 In everything. 01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:15.920 And he's the Lord of all, present, working in history, moving history, and we inviting us to work with him. 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:17.520 That's how the video ends. 01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:18.000 Right. 01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:22.479 And then the whole idea of uh hearing at the end good and faithful is well done. 01:14:22.479 --> 01:14:39.600 Good and faithful service because we are fulfilling our cultural mandate, our cultural condition of the the heart has been changed, the mind is the is being renewed, and uh there is service, there is work, there is loving our neighbor and serving and extending this kingdom of God, right? 01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:41.199 With the king, with the king. 01:14:41.439 --> 01:14:41.920 Yeah, exactly. 01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:45.680 Yeah, you can't stop at just uh just uh discipling your family. 01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:50.239 If you're gonna do that, then you can go get one of those compounds up in Alaska and go hide out with your kids. 01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:51.840 Uh it's a lot more than that. 01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:56.960 And uh uh as you you told us all the time, Dad, when we were growing up, you've been blessed to be a blessing. 01:14:56.960 --> 01:14:59.760 So you're you're not a reservoir, you're a river. 01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:08.159 And um that blessing should flow out to your family and your closest uh you know relationships first, but then it's it's supposed to go beyond that, it's supposed to affect this world. 01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:10.399 It's the Great Commission again, disciple the nations. 01:15:10.399 --> 01:15:20.720 And the the Great Commission and the Cultural Commission in Genesis 1 really echo the same idea when it says, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. 01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:24.319 The call is to work the garden and keep it, as some people say. 01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:25.840 Uh, what is the garden? 01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:26.960 The garden's the world. 01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:29.600 That's that's your nation, that's the world around you. 01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:33.840 You're supposed to work it and keep it, steward it, have dominion over it. 01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:39.760 Um we have we have a commission for this world, for impacting this world, and that affects that it's a call to everything. 01:15:39.760 --> 01:15:41.199 It's the garden, it's the whole thing. 01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:49.119 It's our workplaces, it's our hobbies, it's um it's the political structures around us, it's economics, it's everything. 01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:51.760 So just just real quick, can we just dive into that? 01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:59.439

Like what what does this look like, this kind of rippling outward past the family into the the the broader society around us and our in our nations as a whole? 01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:04.399 This is where I think um again, this is almost entirely neglected in the church. 01:16:04.399 --> 01:16:12.560 Um this is an area where the DNA really feels a calling to kind of remind the church of what its role is to disciple people in a biblical worldview. 01:16:12.560 --> 01:16:23.600 And what that means is that um it's a comprehensive truth, this comprehensive story that affects everything, every area of society. 01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:34.479 Um, you know, when we think about nations, nations are a collection of families and clans, but there's something about nations that goes beyond individual relationships now. 01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:42.800 There's institutions, there's governments, there's cultures, there's schools, universities, there's there's all of these things when we're talking about nations. 01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:50.159 And the truth of the Bible is to shape every one of those areas is we we uh and it does, it shapes every area. 01:16:50.159 --> 01:17:11.920 I I was thinking about our podcast just recently with our our dear friend Owen Strawn, and he was pushing back a little bit on us on this, and we were talking about education, and I was saying that if you just you know, if you start with the biblical story, you're gonna end up with a particular way of doing education in the public that's gonna look different than probably what we're doing right now in public schools in the United States. 01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:22.079 Um you know, that that those principles, when they're applied, are gonna lead to a certain way of doing education that's gonna be better, that's gonna be good, that's gonna bear good fruit. 01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:28.800 Um, but he was pushing back and saying, you know, I do think there's some areas that, you know, right, you can carry this too far. 01:17:28.800 --> 01:17:31.439 And he I think he used the example of a plumber. 01:17:31.439 --> 01:17:35.920 Um I could be wrong on that, but I as that's what I recall, you know, what if you're a plumber? 01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:38.239 You know, like what does the Bible have to say about plumbing? 01:17:38.239 --> 01:17:42.000 And I thought, I thought about that after the show quite a bit. 01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:45.279 And I was reminded of something that I just saw recently. 01:17:45.279 --> 01:17:57.199 Uh, it was uh it was uh an infographic of the world, and it talked about the parts of the world that you can actually turn on a tap and have clean potable water coming out of the tap. 01:17:57.199 --> 01:18:02.000 And there's actually very few countries in the world where that's the case. 01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:05.039 Uh I happen to live in one, uh the United States. 01:18:05.039 --> 01:18:06.479 And Nelson, you live in Canada. 01:18:06.479 --> 01:18:09.760 You can turn on the water,

you can drink it, you're not going to get sick or contaminated. 01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:16.800 That's not the case if you go to a lot of countries in South America, Latin America, Asia, Africa. 01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:18.000 Why is that? 01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:21.359 You know, we're talking about water, we're talking about pipes and plumbing. 01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:23.199 You know, why do we even have that in the first place? 01:18:23.199 --> 01:18:24.640 Why did somebody say it's important? 01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:26.159 Or I thought about Vishall. 01:18:26.159 --> 01:18:42.079 Vishal often talks about his trip to Uganda and he saw Ugandans take telling their wives to go all the way down to this stream a half mile away with a you know, this basket or this bucket, fill it up with clean water, bring it on their heads back up here so we can have water. 01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:47.279 That, you know, you know, why why is it that in the United States we don't do that? 01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:52.079 We don't send our wives down to the river to get water and carry it back on their heads. 01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:59.920 And meanwhile, they probably are gonna struggle with all sorts of issues structurally in their body after a while because it's so heavy heavy. 01:18:59.920 --> 01:19:06.960 No, we actually do we put in pipes and we plum and we bring the water, right? 01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:17.840 Well, maybe, maybe one of the reasons that that's happened in some countries and not others is because somewhere along the lines someone said uh human beings are made in God's image. 01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:23.840 And part of what that means is we need to care for people, we need to treat them with dignity, and they should be healthy and flourishing. 01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:27.680 So that means we need to have clean water and we need to have it in the home, right? 01:19:27.680 --> 01:19:30.720 We take we take these things for granted in the West, by the way. 01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:33.119 We just assume, oh, everyone thinks like this. 01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:34.479 No, they do not. 01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:42.000 Or, you know, why why not just send our wives or kids down to the river and you know, they spend most of their time hauling water? 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:47.279 No, because that's beneath their dignity, and God has something more for them to do than just haul water. 01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:49.920 Okay, that's from the biblical worldview. 01:19:49.920 --> 01:20:04.880 Okay, so this is what we're talking about now when we talk about applying that worldview, that true story into a society, even in something as basic as plumbing, much less law or art or religion or business, you know, every area. 01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:16.319 Uh that's the quote from the video, Kuiper's, you know, every square inch, Jesus says it's mine and it's going to be changed when we apply the truths of the Bible and the biblical story to it. 01:20:16.319 --> 01:20:25.600 And uh any good that we see

in the West, by the way, it's not because the Western people, uh, Europeans, United States, whatever, it's not because we're somehow superior. 01:20:25.600 --> 01:20:26.479 We are not. 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:37.840 It's because faithful Christians over millennia now have applied the principles of the Bible faithfully, and they've lived them out in a way that has brought positive change and blessing. 01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:39.199 It's purely because of that. 01:20:39.199 --> 01:20:40.960 We're just the recipients of that. 01:20:40.960 --> 01:20:43.520 And that can go away, and it is going away, right? 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:46.319 Uh the cut flower that Osgenis talks about. 01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:50.800 But uh, but that's that's that's what we should be working for. 01:20:50.800 --> 01:20:52.800 Uh, anyways, I'm now preaching. 01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:54.239 Preaching, so I gotta stop. 01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:56.000 Yeah, Nelson and Luke. 01:20:57.279 --> 01:21:02.880 Yeah, and and I like that, Scott, because again, back to we are creating God's image with a mind. 01:21:03.119 --> 01:21:03.359 Right. 01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:08.960 I mean, these little graphics that we use to the view of man, we have a mind and a heart. 01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:10.720 There is a mind, right? 01:21:10.720 --> 01:21:13.600 And the mind extends all that that you talked about. 01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:23.680 I mean, uh I come from an engineering background, right, and and building all these structures and bringing order to society and making life flourish in a city and a community. 01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:24.640 And that's the mind. 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:26.159 Even creating a no a tool. 01:21:26.159 --> 01:21:35.600 I mean, there's the hands, God gave us the hands to to do things, but then our mind creates a two that extends what the hand can do, right? 01:21:35.600 --> 01:21:38.159 And and brings efficiency and multiplies. 01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:43.039 Just on that, I remember talking to our dear friend Lennox uh Kawa Funga, you know, from Zambia. 01:21:43.039 --> 01:21:45.119 And I remember, I think it was Lennox, Luke, you'll remember. 01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:50.880 He said, you know, one of the things that struck him when he went from Africa, Zambia to the United States was sidewalks. 01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:52.319 I said, tell me more about that. 01:21:52.319 --> 01:21:54.479 He said, we don't have sidewalks in Africa. 01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:56.720 Oh, but talk about taking something for granted. 01:21:56.720 --> 01:21:58.000 We just, they're outside the house. 01:21:58.000 --> 01:21:58.880 I don't even think about them. 01:21:58.880 --> 01:22:00.880 I don't even, I don't, you know, they're just there. 01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:03.119 And he said, Where do those sidewalks come from? 01:22:03.119 --> 01:22:04.880 Like, why don't we have them in Africa? 01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:08.880 Why do people actually get hit on the road and die at a much higher rate? 01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:17.840 It's because uh somewhere along the line, somebody said human life is too precious for it to be risked, you know, flippantly on the street. 01:22:17.840 --> 01:22:21.199 We need to protect them and we need to create these little walking roads. 01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:22.560 That doesn't just happen. 01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:26.560 That's the fruit of a biblical worldview lived out in a society. 01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:31.039 And yet we again, we I I just again we totally take these things for granted. 01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:31.520 Yeah. 01:22:31.840 --> 01:22:35.920 Yeah, and I I we need this biblical review for sidewalks in Brazil. 01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:40.560 I thought, because in Brazil we have sidewalks, but they're also all uneven, all broken. 01:22:40.560 --> 01:22:42.880 So we how many times I tripped in the sidewalk? 01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:44.319 So we need the biblical review to fix it. 01:22:44.319 --> 01:22:49.119 My daughter Gabriela's that's when when I was a kid, that was one of our dreams. 01:22:49.119 --> 01:22:51.520 I'm gonna be an artist and fix the sidewalks. 01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:56.960 Uh so anyway, but it but it is, I mean, and and back to the institutions that we create. 01:22:56.960 --> 01:22:58.399 I mean we create culture, right? 01:22:58.399 --> 01:23:00.399 We the culture commission, we create culture. 01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:03.600 Creating culture is institutions. 01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:07.840 So we create institutions are a big part of our our our culture. 01:23:07.840 --> 01:23:12.159 So so and and also I uh I I quoted T. 01:23:12.159 --> 01:23:12.399 S. 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:15.920 Eliot uh in a meeting a couple weeks ago, and T. 01:23:15.920 --> 01:23:16.079 S. 01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:23.439 Eliot was in this agnostic atheist before his conversion in his famous poem, The Wasteland. 01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:25.359 Life is a wasteland. 01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:36.640 But then he he he comes to Christ, his heart is changed, his mind is hard to be renewed, and he writes the poem in the four quartets and says, No, life is a garden. 01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:42.640 Um because God put us here, I mean, the nature of this here is not a wasteland, it is a garden. 01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:48.960 And we God is working and using us and calling us to work with him so that this garden can again flourish. 01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:55.920 There may be weeds right now, but it is not the nature of it, the of this creation, this world is not a wasteland. 01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:57.199 It is a garden. 01:23:57.199 --> 01:24:01.760 There is weeds, of course, but God is working on that, he's gonna solve it. 01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:06.560 Just on that, Nelson, there was weeds at the beginning, and there will not be weeds at the end. 01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:07.279 There will be. 01:24:07.279 --> 01:24:29.520 Doesn't mean it's gonna be perfected, but that we're to live in light of that, in the tr in the in the light of those two twin truths

of the way that God created it and the way that it will be. 01:24:30.079 --> 01:24:30.319 Yeah. 01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:33.199 Interesting that you said that because I just think about Jesus. 01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:38.479 Uh someone may say, well, but the in the parable of the weeds, didn't Jesus say that there will be weeds? 01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:42.399 But sometimes we think, yeah, there'll be weeds, so let the weeds grow and destroy everything. 01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:44.000 But he said, let the truth grow together. 01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:47.760 And I will take care of those weeds, by the way. 01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:47.920 Yeah. 01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:52.560 I would take care of the weeds, but this there is not only weeds growing, there is the key. 01:24:52.560 --> 01:24:54.079 That's what's neglected. 01:24:54.319 --> 01:24:56.239 Yeah, those that weed is growing too. 01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:58.640 And it it and that wheat, by the way, can't just be reduced. 01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:01.279 I think sometimes we reduce that just to save souls. 01:25:01.279 --> 01:25:06.000 Uh no, it's it's it's the growth of a plant that's bearing fruit. 01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:09.199 And I think that fruit is rippling out into the entire field. 01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:10.239 Yeah, that's right. 01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:13.119 So yeah, it's the sidewalks. 01:25:13.119 --> 01:25:13.920 It's the plumbing. 01:25:14.239 --> 01:25:15.439 It's the sidewalks and the plumbing. 01:25:15.439 --> 01:25:28.960 And again, we're talking about very simple things because I think this is where some Christians push back and say, oh, I can see how you might be able to apply some biblical principles in education or in law, justice, which I mean, believe me, you can. 01:25:28.960 --> 01:25:40.479 You can, I mean, the whole Western judicial system historically, you know, things like, you know, you cannot just immediately haul someone off and execute them without a trial. 01:25:40.479 --> 01:25:47.039 And there has to be witnesses, and those witnesses have to you know pledge to tell the truth. 01:25:47.039 --> 01:25:48.159 All of that's from the Bible. 01:25:48.159 --> 01:25:49.520 A hundred percent of that's from the Bible. 01:25:49.920 --> 01:25:50.159 Yeah. 01:25:50.720 --> 01:25:50.800 Yeah. 01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:51.119 Yeah. 01:25:51.119 --> 01:26:03.279 In some fields, there definitely is much more clear biblical application as far as mandates go, but in every area of work, the the the simple cultural commission remains work the garden and keep it. 01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:07.039 That's that's very true for the plumber, having dominion over the water. 01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:08.720 That's that's that's true there. 01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:10.239 It's true in every single field. 01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:14.399 This quote by Dallas Willard I saw last week, I think fit fits perfectly here. 01:26:14.399 --> 01:26:30.479 He said, quote, it is as great and difficult a spiritual calling to run the

factories and the mines, the banks and the apartment stores, the schools and government agencies for the kingdom of God as it is for the pastors of a church and those who serve in evangelism. 01:26:30.479 --> 01:26:38.640 The division of vocations into sacred and secular does incalculable damage to our individual lives and to the cause of Christ. 01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:39.520 End quote. 01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.760 As Christians, when we need that quote. 01:26:41.760 --> 01:26:42.239 I need it. 01:26:42.239 --> 01:26:43.600 Send me that quote. 01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:44.479 I know. 01:26:44.640 --> 01:26:49.680 When I saw that and I was like, Well, no, it's just it's speaking to something so true, and Luke, you know this, I know this. 01:26:49.680 --> 01:26:54.159 When I go to church and I talk to people about, I ask the question, hey, what do you do? 01:26:54.159 --> 01:26:57.119 It's I I just I'm so grieved by this. 01:26:57.119 --> 01:26:58.880 They get people always get apologetic. 01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:02.800 I'm just uh you hear it, I'm a little I'm just a- I just had that conversation the other day. 01:27:02.800 --> 01:27:06.560 It was a guy down in Hollywood, and he's an actor, and you know, hey, what do you do? 01:27:06.560 --> 01:27:09.359 And I told him about what I do, and he's like, Oh, that's so valuable. 01:27:09.359 --> 01:27:09.680 Wow. 01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:11.039 So spiritual. 01:27:11.039 --> 01:27:15.600 Yeah, like that must be so cool having immediate impact every day on God's kingdom. 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:16.880 Right. 01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:22.399 You know, he said that impact on God's kingdom, and I said, Hey man, you're an actor in Hollywood. 01:27:22.399 --> 01:27:24.000 Who do you think has more impact? 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:27.680 You know, like uh an evangelist or a Hollywood movie. 01:27:27.680 --> 01:27:34.159 You know, like come on, if you want to talk about impact in this world, preach, uh, you have just as much of an impactful role as I do. 01:27:34.159 --> 01:27:36.159 And in anyways, it's not about impact. 01:27:36.159 --> 01:27:38.000 You know, God, God's the one who measures impact. 01:27:38.000 --> 01:27:40.239 That's kind of what Dallas Swillard's getting at here. 01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:42.800 It's just as important to be a banker as a pastor. 01:27:42.800 --> 01:27:44.079 Uh that's up to God. 01:27:44.079 --> 01:27:48.319 And this kind of hierarchy of like more spiritual, less spiritual is more important, less important. 01:27:48.319 --> 01:27:49.439 We totally think that way. 01:27:49.439 --> 01:27:52.399 Exactly what this video we're talking about is trying to address. 01:27:52.399 --> 01:27:56.399 We stop at the heart change and we never get to the rippling out effects. 01:27:56.399 --> 01:27:58.560 And if you stop there, then yeah, sure. 01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:03.279 If it's just about heart change, then The evangelist is the most important person in the world, but it doesn't stop there. 01:28:03.279 --> 01:28:04.239 It ripples out. 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:09.439 And all of those ripples matter because that's all part of the big discipling nations commission that we're trying to do here. 01:28:09.439 --> 01:28:12.880 So the banker plays just as just as important role in that if you see it that way. 01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:14.640 That's kind of the body of Christ imagery. 01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:16.319 We need all of us working here in the body. 01:28:16.319 --> 01:28:21.439 We have been called to different things, we have different gifts, but we're all part of the same body working towards the same goal. 01:28:21.439 --> 01:28:27.119 And once you see that, it just it destroys the sacred secular divide, as as Willard is is pointing to here. 01:28:27.199 --> 01:28:36.319 So how many times have you heard sermons in the church, evangelical churches, Bible-believing churches on this that that affirm just exactly what you said, Luke? 01:28:36.319 --> 01:28:37.600 Almost never. 01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:44.000 And so consequently, people that are in these vocations, actor, banker, plumber, they they feel it. 01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:48.399 They feel it like, oh, I'm not doing very much for God's kingdom. 01:28:48.399 --> 01:28:53.199 Not like you, pastor, you evangelist, you DNA worker. 01:28:53.199 --> 01:28:55.680 Um, it just is heartbreaking to me. 01:28:55.680 --> 01:29:00.960 And yet at the same time, when they see the truth of this, that God has called us, right? 01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:03.039 He's called us to have a role to play. 01:29:03.039 --> 01:29:04.880 This is how this video ends, by the way. 01:29:04.880 --> 01:29:10.000 We all have a role to play, a calling, and that calling encompasses every area of society. 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:17.359 So you can be an actor in Hollywood or you can be a bank or plumber, whatever it is that God's called you to do and have a such a significant impact. 01:29:17.359 --> 01:29:24.960 When we've taught that around the world, I have seen people literally be brought to tears because they feel for the first time affirmed. 01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:35.359 Like what I do matters, you know, matters beyond just earning a living to support my family and tithe to the church, but something about it actually is redemptive. 01:29:35.359 --> 01:29:40.000 It's it's it can it can be redemptive and it can make an impact. 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.640 I can change the world by God's grace. 01:29:42.640 --> 01:29:50.000 Anyways, I I just uh I it really I do really want to preach on this, Luke, right now, because I I care so deeply about it. 01:29:50.079 --> 01:29:50.800 Yeah, anyways. 01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:53.680 Yeah, I I that's a great place to wrap it up, though. 01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:56.399 I mean, uh it's that's again what this video is about. 01:29:56.399 --> 01:29:57.199 Great commission. 01:29:57.199 --> 01:29:58.159 This is how we're doing it. 01:29:58.159 --> 01:30:01.359 This is this is kind of a game plan, a very simple three and a half minute game plan to do it. 01:30:01.359 --> 01:30:03.119 Again, the video is linked down in the description. 01:30:03.119 --> 01:30:05.039 You can find it there, you can find it on YouTube. 01:30:05.039 --> 01:30:07.840 And uh, if it's helpful for you, please share it with your friends. 01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:11.520 This is a message that we want to just continue to spread as far and wide as possible. 01:30:11.520 --> 01:30:18.640 Pretty much everything that comes out of the Disciple Nations Alliance follows this general problem solution discussion we've been having today. 01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:21.840 This really is our mission here at the Disciple Nations Alliance. 01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:31.760 Um, we exist to equip believers with a biblical worldview so that they can go out and affect their families, communities, and nations for Christ and his glory. 01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:33.199 Uh that's what we're all about here. 01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:38.079 So pretty much everything that you see come out of our work here also plays a part in this. 01:30:38.079 --> 01:30:43.119 So our books, our trainings, uh, all of it on thediscipelnations.org points to this. 01:30:43.119 --> 01:30:46.000 So if this is exciting you, uh feel free to access any of that. 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:46.640 It's all free. 01:30:46.640 --> 01:30:48.720 It's all it's all uh there for you. 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:53.279 And we hope that this is uh a helpful start in a journey for you in unpacking all this. 01:30:53.279 --> 01:31:05.600 It's uh it's a lot of fun to to dig into the fact that God reigns over all things and cares about all things, and therefore anything you're doing in life, God cares about, has a mission for, and has a design for you to to live in. 01:31:05.600 --> 01:31:09.279 So, anyways, with that, Nelson uh Dad, thanks for joining today. 01:31:09.279 --> 01:31:10.159 This was a lot of fun. 01:31:10.159 --> 01:31:12.880 It was a little bit long, but uh it was a great discussion. 01:31:14.399 --> 01:31:16.960 I want to keep talking anyways, but uh Okay, part two. 01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:18.640 I'm sure we'll have it at some point. 01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:21.439 It's great, great to be with you, Luke, and great to be with you. 01:31:21.439 --> 01:31:22.640 Thank you.