Finding Solid Ground: An Evidence Based Program For Complex Trauma & Dissociation with Dr. Bethany Brand의 전체 녹취록

journaling exercises, and you know, for the clients to actually do the practice skill development exercises. 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:25.439 And you know, we took all comers. 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:33.360 We have 200, almost 300 dyads, therapist patients from around the world who volunteered their time. 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.439 Thank you, any of you who are listening. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:35.920 Yes. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:40.959 And so it I think of it as a crowd-sourced research study. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:41.439 Yeah. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:52.399 Because, you know, the US National Institute of Mental Health has never supported financially a study on complex dissociative disorders. 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:54.879 We got no big funding like that. 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:57.360 We got a lot of donations. 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:57.920 Yeah. 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.079 And that's how we pulled this all together. 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:07.839 And I've had some brilliant students who have mostly actually all the consultants, like Frank Putnam, have donated their time. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:08.399 Yeah. 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:09.759 Donated their time. 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.319 Like that kind of research study could cost easily$3 million. 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:15.439 Yeah. 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.360 No, we did not have three million dollars, but we did it anyway. 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:19.600 Yeah. 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:25.199 Because so many people, the participants and research team, donated time. 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:30.399 It's such an effort of love and commitment to healing across the board, right? 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:52.319 To understanding what helps mental health professionals in terms of toolkit and what helps people actually start to feel some traction in a sort of treatment that can feel overwhelming and difficult to even find a match for some find where to get help or start to feel a sense of, oh, something's working. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.360 So it's such a beautiful testament to the human spirit to hear of this crowdfunding. 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:04.000 And then I dreamstorm in my mind, shout out to Jennifer Gomez, who we're presenting at the conference on dreamstorming with. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:05.920 I always shout out to her every episode. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:07.680 I tell her she says she listens. 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.439 She's like walking along the Charles River. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:10.319 Are you are you there? 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:10.800 Are you listening? 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:12.079 Are you walking along with Charles? 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:13.120 Just a shout out to you. 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:14.079 Hi, Jen. 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:15.279 Hi, Jen. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:26.399 My dream storm here is that folks who are doing this research get the most funding and the most support because again, this is the hardest stuff. 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:32.480 Like, why would we like spend all

of our resources on the things that are easiest? 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:39.920 Why wouldn't we do it this way where we're learning from, okay, this is what works in the most complex situations and it helps other people? 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.079 And there's a trickle down or trickle over, trickle up, trickle around effect. 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:44.959 Right. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:50.399 So can you share with us some of the primary components of finding solid ground? 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:57.839 Like I'm I think it's safe to call it like a stage one sort of resourcing focused program and protocol. 00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.360 What are some of the elements? 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:00.399 How did you come to them? 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:02.560 How did they arise in your work? 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:04.720 It's a little brief story. 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.120 Frank Putnam put me up to it. 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.000 Yes, as he does, as he does. 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.480 I have so much respect for Frank Putnam. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:13.439 He is a hero. 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.680 He has done so much to improve the world. 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:22.959 He said to me at an ISS TD conference, some young person needs to find a way to do a treatment study. 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:28.079 We have not had a rigorous treatment study to date. 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.879 And I kind of scoffed. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.840 I love him, but I did kind of roll my eyes like there's no funding, Frank. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:36.399 Yeah. 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:37.519 Who's going to do this? 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.960 We don't have any treatment centers where we can train up a bunch of therapists. 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.200 You know, I had some idea about what the psychotherapy research has to look like. 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:54.320 But he planted the idea in my mind, and I started thinking about it, and I'd be working out down in my basement on my Nordic tract. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.879 This was a long time ago, and you could get a Nordic track. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:02.559 And I'd be working out and I'd get energy and excitement, and I'd be thinking, like, how can we do it? 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:04.879 And we actually had two goals. 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:15.840 We absolutely wanted to help even the most challenging clients with the most severe symptoms, down to you know, more minor symptoms, but still complex trauma. 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:22.320 And we wanted to try and help the therapist because this is such a hard group to help. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:24.000 Yeah, it can be very challenging. 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:29.279 You can feel like you're not making progress, your heart goes out to your clients and you see their suffering. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:30.639 It is so hard. 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:38.159 And so we started talking about what would a program need to be that would be stabilizing. 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:39.039 Yes. 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.919 And so we didn't create, you know, all of these ideas fresh ourselves. 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:44.799 Some we did. 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:50.240 Some of the exercises that are now in our finding solid ground workbook, we created. 00:09:50.559 --> 00:10:05.360 But we started with grounding, which you know, we've almost all heard about grounding and been doing grounding, but we emphasize that as the starting point for finding solid ground, which I may slip and call it FSG. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.600 So just so people know what I'm talking about. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:16.960 And what we all have learned, and I mean the researchers who are all of us were clinicians still, with I think the exception of Frank Putnam, we're all still very actively treating clients. 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.679 We thought we were doing enough grounding. 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:22.639 Yeah. 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:27.039 And I don't think any of us have been, probably. 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:38.960 Um, and now with some of Ruth Lanius's research on the importance of working with the vestibular balance system, we are now emphasizing that. 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:41.279 I know the yoga work you too. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:52.960 Yeah, you've been talking about it and doing it, and OTs have been talking about some of this, but into mainstream regular therapy, probably a lot of people haven't. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:53.440 Yeah. 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.919 And so emphasizing we have these eight modules and finding solid ground. 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.399 The program is broken into eight modules. 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:05.919 In the eight modules across over time, it's we talk about 30 topics. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.639 So we try and break down. 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:12.320 I took a lot of thinking and dreamsting. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:23.039 Like, all right, if you just had like a year or maybe two years to stabilize somebody, and people can go through finding solid ground much slower than that, and plenty of people need to. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:23.440 Yeah. 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.679 But what would be the key ingredients? 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:27.279 So, of course, grounding. 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:28.000 Yes. 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:29.440 Then some other research. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:33.519 We've been developing this based on some of our research and other people's research. 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:40.320 One of our most important studies showed from working with highly dissociative participants. 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:52.159 We asked them what were their main triggers or any of their triggers they could recall in their entire life that had led them to engage in self-harm or high-risk behaviors. 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:58.399 And the number one trigger was being flooded by traumatic intrusions. 00:11:58.559 --> 00:11:59.039 Yeah. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:04.159 So horrible pictures, body memories, and they couldn't get it to

stop. 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:20.480 And so, of course, we all know they've taught us, our clients have taught us, like using drugs or alcohol to stop the feelings or other kinds of self-indurious behaviors, potentially self-indurious behaviors, stops it. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:21.120 Yeah. 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:22.480 Reliably. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:23.360 Yeah. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:31.679 But it also keeps people caught up, whether they're aware of it or not, in this idea that it's okay for my body to be hurt. 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.799 And it's a reenactment from childhood, right? 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.679 And that's all folks had when they were little. 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.679 You know, you don't have all the resources you do as you get older. 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:48.000 So our second module after grounding was separating past from present. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:13:00.559 Really helping contain and give some sense of control over those intrusions, helping them find ways to distinguish is am I safer now or not? 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:02.639 What are my resources now? 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.879 And did I have those when I was younger? 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:15.919 And just ways to help, those are some basic ways, and we go into a lot more detail in the program, but the basic ways of calming the nervous system and helping them not be so flooded. 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.399 So they didn't have the triggers to engage in self-harm so much. 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:21.039 Yeah. 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:29.440 And then I worked inpatient for on a trauma disorders unit for a number of years, early, early in my career as a postdoc. 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:36.240 And of course, when you're working inpatient, you jump right to safety problems because that's all the insurance is going to give you time for, right? 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:41.919 And so, in my experience, you go to safety problems right away. 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:42.639 But Dr. 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:56.639 Hugashoka, one of our collaborators, co-developers of the program, led live groups in a forensic psychiatric state hospital in California testing out FSG, an early version. 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:02.720 And he got lots of feedback, they got lots of feedback from clients saying, can't do that. 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:08.639 Emotions too big, safety too big, can't talk about that. 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:14.480 And so we learned from that kind of feedback to make to get into safety. 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:23.759 We have two modules on safety, but if they come later after people already have the foundational skills so they can help tolerate that safely. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:32.080 And then toward the end of the program, we get into emotions and encourage people in baby steps. 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:37.279 Try to sit for a little bit as long as you can, but respect yourself and your body. 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:43.919 When you get the sense that that's enough, respect that and

move away, outside or around in some other way. 00:14:44.639 --> 00:15:02.799 We do talk about parts, but not a ton, and then not till later, because when you're talking about dissociative self-states or parts, it brings up often trauma memories, maybe conflict about trauma memories, and a lot of emotion. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:13.279 And that's so big that we think that's the purview of individual therapists to decide with this client how much can I talk about it and when. 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:18.080 But we do bring up ideas like all parts are created to help. 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:18.639 Yeah. 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.120 And you know, compromise, communication, collaboration. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.919 You may adapt any of these skills for different parts. 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:29.840 We say some of that, yeah, just not in lots of detail. 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:30.399 Yeah. 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:37.759 So we think we have, as you said, a stabilization program that works in manageable chunks. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.000 And oh, we have these videos too. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:50.000 So I'm in these videos talking 10 to 13 minutes typically, and at the end of every single one, I say step by step, you'll get there. 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:50.960 Yeah. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:56.320 And we've heard that that was encouraging, which of course we meant that to be. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.960 And we wanted to get internalized. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:05.360 Um, and so we know of one case, for example, the person has given us permission to share the story. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:13.840 One woman who participated in our study, she after at some point got into a real suicidal crisis. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.240 She was determined to go and kill herself. 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.000 I won't get into details. 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:28.480 And then right as she prepared to do it, she heard me in her head from those videos saying, Step by step, you'll get there. 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:29.759 Yeah, wow. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.480 She went away from where she was gonna hurt herself. 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:37.519 She went home and she activated her safety plan she had made as part of FSG. 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:38.000 Yes. 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279 She lived through it. 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:39.919 Yeah. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:48.960 Wow, what a huge success story to be able to hear and share and know that that voice is getting internalized step by step. 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.320 You'll get there. 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:50.960 Yeah. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:17:04.960 And I just, as you're talking about it, can feel you're so clearly a clinician, a rare, a rare bird of clinician and researcher, because there's such a sense of compassion and clarity with everything you describe. 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:10.559 And a researcher's mind has to really think about things in certain ways. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:41.599 And it there's a risk at times of

losing that sense of humanity there, but it's just so fully enveloped in everything I hear you describe, like the compassion and the perspective, best any of us can do for what our clients are going through, and really meeting that and really delivering something that, you know, we're open to studying, and we're saying, really trying to find what people who've experienced things like you are telling us is working. 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:54.559 And then we're studying that and packaging it in the best way and getting feedback from therapists and clinicians and honing it over time and continuing to study it, and then working together on it, right? 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:55.119 Exactly. 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:56.880 It's not this is the modality. 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:57.920 Here you go. 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:16.400 It's so relational, and I hear just so much attunement and care in there with respect for the fact that even care, even safety, all those things can be big no's, especially in the beginning or or over long periods of time, even for folks who've experienced a lot of harm. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:17.440 Exactly right. 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:19.279 You are so sensitive. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.039 Uh, you're picking up on some things that mattered so much to us. 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.200 So we tried to build in self-compassion, and that is one of our outcome variables that improves over time. 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:38.799 But we also know that that can feel incredibly threatening, like a trick, disgusting, revulsing. 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:43.839 And so we put it in a little early and then we come back to it. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:44.319 Yeah. 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:52.240 You know, put your I tell my own personal clients, um, if listeners know the song The Hokey Pokey. 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:53.519 Yes, yes. 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:58.079 You put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and shake it all about. 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.400 I use that um metaphor and kind of laugh with my own clients. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.359 Like just put a toe in. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:05.839 Yes. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:06.559 Try it. 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.599 Think, could you just think about it for a couple of seconds? 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:14.720 Maybe, like all the other people who are participating in this program. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.279 Uh you know, our clients are so compassionate toward others. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:24.240 So you you you recognize, you know, I'm talking as if I'm doing one of those videos. 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:32.240 You recognize that people doing this study, you you understand they don't deserve to be hurt and feel awful about themselves. 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.839 But you imagine that perhaps that also is accurate for you. 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.680 And what we've heard, um, some of the stories, we've we've had extremely experienced therapists. 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:50.559 Most most people who were participating in the study as therapists had lots of trauma training. 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.599 And I know one who can't identify participants, but she reached out to me. 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:01.599 She was a former postdoc who got great training back in the days when Shepard Pratt had a great trauma unit. 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:09.359 And she said, My client and I, as we did the study, she said to me at one point, Why haven't you taught me this stuff? 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.240 Yes. 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:11.519 Where have you been? 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:12.400 What have you been doing? 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.920 What are all these certificates about? 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:14.799 Come on now. 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.119 And of course, the therapist had been doing the exact thing. 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:20.079 Of course. 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:20.559 Yeah. 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.279 And so we think, like, we've sat with this and talked about this. 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.599 Like, why is FSG helping? 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:27.920 Yeah. 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:39.599 And one of our thoughts might be uh Ruth Lanius is very, very short, as sure as you can be without actually doing a study where you take apart all the components and look at it. 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.160 She thinks the videos really have made a difference. 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.920 And plenty of clients and therapists have said they made a difference. 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:50.960 Some therapists have said it feels like I have a co-therapist so alone. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:00.880 And clients, some some who participated said things like, I remember one person, I wish my partner could watch these videos and they would understand me. 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.599 And other people said, I am taking in the understanding, the compassion. 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:12.000 And somebody said, and as I take in self-compassion, I have self-compassion from my parts. 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.119 Yeah. 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:14.319 Yeah. 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.200 Yes. 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:21.119 So I think maybe because my voice, you know, I'm not their therapist. 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.680 There's no conflict that they have to pay me to see them. 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:27.279 I can't possibly hurt them. 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:28.400 I'm just a video. 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:29.200 Yes. 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:39.440 And then there we have the workbook now that has all the journaling exercises and all the skill practice exercises from the randomized controlled uh study. 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:46.640 And so I think those things help some people think, okay, there is science that shows this helps. 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:55.680 If I just keep plugging away and don't give up on myself, like they keep saying in the videos, I'll make progress step by step. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:56.319 Yeah. 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.759 So it

seems like it may be some of a motivation. 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:00.960 Yeah. 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:10.240 A source of hope, but maybe not as threatening because they could turn me off the videos anytime and come back and watch as many times as they want. 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:10.880 Yes. 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:11.440 Right. 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.079 So we've got this website app we're developing. 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.880 It'll be available soon that'll offer access to those videos. 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:29.440 It will be a subscription model because it's expensive to have a really um safe uh website that hosts these things so they can't get corrupted. 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.079 Yeah. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:31.759 But it'll be available. 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.279 Oh, that's so wonderful. 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:47.680 And then folks can tap in and just like you said, play, pause, rewind, stop in total control of the relationship to that without any sense of, oh, Bethany's gonna get mad at me if I need to stop, right? 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.720 Or oh, I want to repeat that one a million times. 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:51.359 Is that okay? 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.039 Like, yeah, it's all it's all good. 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.519 You can be right where you are and get that support. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:56.400 Exactly. 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.519 You know, uh, I'm sure you've had this, Lisa, where clients feel like it's creepy if they need you. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.279 If they're like, that's gross. 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:04.799 I can't be dependent on you. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:18.000 And I think it just offers one more resource that feels exactly as you're saying, under their control and relational, but not as scary as face-to-face relationships, perhaps. 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:24.720 Yeah, that intermediary and another resource, another part of the plan, another part of the support network. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:32.000 So if it's the middle of the night, or if your therapist is on vacation and they have a wonderful backup person that you don't really know so well, right? 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.440 Like any of those things, it's just another place to get support and care. 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:42.480 And that research piece, knowing it's backed by science, right? 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.799 Knowing this has been taken apart and put back together and studied and looked at from different angles. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:56.240 And I'd imagine to the degree people know that it's resourced from experience too, right? 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.880 It's not, hey, I have this idea, let's test it. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:14.960 It's, hey, these themes have emerged and oh, we have some ideas to layer into that, and then let's see how it works well, and then let's study it and ooh, it's working, to have that sense of confidence to be able to lean onto something, especially in work like this, right? 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:24.240 Especially when you know it's up and down and all around and it's challenging to be able to lean just enough on, okay, step by step I'll get there. 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.960 If I keep doing this, this is gonna help, right? 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.920 I have a sense of confidence in that. 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.039 That can be just priceless. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.880 Yes, I agree. 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:41.359 It it feels like to go back to the therapist of the woman who had the suicidal crisis. 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:42.960 Um, his name is Dr. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.720 Nicolas Rodriguez. 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.960 He's very pre-eminent in Chile. 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.079 He's given me permission to share his story, as has his client. 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:59.200 He has shared with us that he thinks it's a game changer that there will be a before and after finding solid ground and uh trauma field. 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:04.000 Because him just he's a real expert in EMDR. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:09.519 He trains, he consults, he's gonna be he's starting a FSG research study in Chile. 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:21.839 He saw such differences, and as he's training people, he's hearing such differences that he has that level of faith in it that he says it's a game changer. 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:28.160 One piece I didn't address, and I will be presenting this at ISS T D next week. 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:34.799 And if you're listening to this in 2026, yeah, in 2026, Friday, what is it, March 20th? 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:35.920 The 27th. 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:37.359 March 27th. 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:38.880 I'm doing a training tomorrow. 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:40.000 That's the 20th. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.319 No, ISSTD is the 27th. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.200 Yes. 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.920 I'll show the slides that will show this. 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.039 There's different ways you can do statistical analyses. 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.839 The typical way is you group everybody together and you look at the group data. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:56.160 Yeah. 00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:09.680 When we look at the group data that way, we had people, everybody understood as they came into the study that they could be assigned to continue with your individual therapy and wait six months to get access to finding solid ground. 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:16.000 And half of them would continue with your individual therapy and get immediate access to finding solid ground. 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:36.160 In research terms, it had as an extremely challenging design because most treatment studies looking at what they want to see if it works, FSG, they compare it to a watered-down, very light intervention, like let's teach an uh anxiety management exercise or something. 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:37.039 Something. 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.559 Let's talk about the importance of diet or exercise. 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:41.039 Right.

00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:41.599 Right? 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:46.000 Like it's not going to compete with changing PTSD and dissociation. 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:51.599 Well, we wanted something that's actually going to be really helpful to the field. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:58.000 Does FSG add something above and beyond individual therapy with therapists who are experienced? 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:00.799 And this is what we found. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.200 And I get I literally get small. 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.079 Yes. 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:10.799 It's you know, it's the um top of it's the pinnacle of my career that we've managed to do this. 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.759 So I do get emotional about it because I've seen this suffering for over 30 years. 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:16.400 Okay. 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:26.640 So in the group who had individual therapy alone, none of their outcomes improved in six months from individual therapy. 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.960 Not any. 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:29.839 Wow. 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:41.039 And then once they got FSG, um, well, the immediate access group just at six months showed really nice improvements in every outcome variable we looked at. 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.640 And then at a year, they showed continued improvement. 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:53.200 Once the wait list that was still getting individual therapy got FSG, then they caught up to the six-month improvements. 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.000 And then they continued, and at one year they showed really beautiful improvements. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:58.640 Wow. 00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:04.079 So we can say with confidence that FSG caused those improvements. 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:04.720 Yes. 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:10.240 That is the rock solid highest level of research evidence for any treatment. 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:16.799 All right, so that's at the group level, but then we have gone ahead and added some additional analyses. 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:22.160 Thank you, Karen Putnam, Frank Putnam's brilliant statistician wife. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:22.960 Yes. 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.680 She has been analyzing and analyzing and making sure are these analyses correct? 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.920 You know, and we trust her with every precious data. 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.759 She's extremely good. 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.480 We asked her to do reliable change index analyses. 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:57.680 What that does is look at the individuals to find out well, did any individuals make reliable change beyond just, you know, when you take different questionnaires again and again, there's there's some error, there's some noise in people's answers on questionnaires. 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:02.880 You know, maybe I won't go into detail, but we wanted to see, well, what about individuals? 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:14.720 And so individuals in that six-month wait list uh condition, some some small percentage did make reliable change improvements. 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.640 Some also smaller groups deteriorated. 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.559 We all know that's part of working with complex trauma. 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.799 Yeah, that there are periods of waxing and waning symptoms. 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:33.200 One of our early studies shows if they've been if a client was re-victimized, so of course their symptoms are going to worsen. 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:45.039 Or if there's a huge amount of family stress or intrusions from past abusers, our research study showed that it's understandable and they did get more symptomatic. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:30:00.000 So over time, looking at reliable change, looking at comparing the rates of reliable change just from those in individual therapy, once they got FSG, their reliable change doubled. 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:12.400 The percentage of individual clients who showed reliable change in PTSD dissociation, self-compassion, adaptive capacities doubled. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.240 It is very clear to us it's FSG. 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:23.839 And once they got into FSG, the rates of deterioration sometimes vanished to zero. 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:24.960 Wow. 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.759 Or it went to tiny little percentages. 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.240 So we're still trying to make sense of that. 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.839 We feel like it's like safety guardrails, maybe. 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:43.519 We think we got the sequence right with all that input from people with lived experience and all these wise clinicians around the world as we adapted it over time in our research. 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.599 We think we got the sequence right. 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:46.160 Yeah. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:57.359 And if people don't give up on themselves, and if they keep step by step going through that program at whatever pace they need, they show improvement. 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.079 Yeah. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:04.960 It is. 00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:06.880 I mean, it is. 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:13.359 I every single time I get choked up or goosebumps or both, because I didn't think it was possible. 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.240 When Frank Putnam said somebody ought to study this, like, where's the money? 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:19.200 How do we do it? 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:20.880 And then he added the clincher. 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:24.480 And you know, it would be amazing if we could do an online intervention. 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:29.039 And then I just like rolled my like ha ha ha ha, slapping money over here. 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.160 That's hilarious. 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:37.519 And hilarious because how do you help folks who've been so mistreated and struggling for you know often decades? 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.079 How do you help them if you don't actually see them? 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:40.640 Yeah. 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:46.319 And an online manualized intervention, come on, that's hogwash. 00:31:46.720

--> 00:31:47.119 Yeah. 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.759 I didn't have a lot of faith in those programs. 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:50.559 Yeah. 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:59.200 But now, but we worked hard and tinkered with it over time, not just tinkered, it doesn't do it justice. 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.920 We improved it over time based on the feedback we got and our research results. 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.599 And lo and behold, yeah, we're here. 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:12.400 So, what are some of the symptom improvements that people report? 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:20.079 Are they feeling, you know, they're scaling less on sort of dissociative inventories or PTFD inventories? 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:20.400 Yeah. 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:35.759 Are there any uh and I don't know how much qualitative data you're collecting here, too, in terms of stories or words, but are there any themes you want to share of how people report their clients or themselves feeling supported, feeling better? 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.720 Yes. 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:47.680 Again, thank you to one of my former students who is the students who've worked on the study, Nick Pirazzio and Shay Nestor being the top two. 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.440 I'm just giving them a shout out. 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.559 Yes, they've gone on to doctoral programs. 00:32:52.720 --> 00:33:00.880 My university didn't have doctoral programs, so they got their masters or were in the process of getting their master's and then moved on to a doctoral program. 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.880 And they have stayed linked in with the study. 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.640 They are still our co-authors. 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.759 You know, like they're loyal, they're faithful, they have the dream. 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.079 Yes, help these clients too. 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:10.640 Good. 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:16.160 So and they both really love qualitative research. 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.119 So Nick was first author on a paper that came out. 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.160 Um, I'm trying to remember, was it 2026, 2025? 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.920 I cannot keep it all straight. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:34.720 He, with a team, I was one of the authors, but I have a minor role, analyzed with an open text box question from the surveys for clients. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.079 What did you find helpful, if anything, in FSG? 00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:47.599 And I won't be able to remember all the themes that emerged, but they talked about the actual content of the program was helpful. 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.759 They felt like they learned skills, and that was helpful. 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:56.799 They felt it helped strengthen the relationship with their therapist. 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.799 And relational healing, as you've already pointed out several times, is crucial to working with trauma survivors and helping them. 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.400 They felt it helped them develop self-compassion. 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:17.599 And there's these quotes about how they had some they for some people with parts, how they develop more compassion toward their parts. 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.000 Things like that that they just felt were really helpful. 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.639 Ah, another thing, I love this. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:33.760 As I said earlier, you know, typically people who have experienced complex trauma have huge hearts, huge amount of self-compassion for others. 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.320 Yes. 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:40.480 And so they said another theme that emerged was it felt meaningful to be doing something to help other people. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.440 Yeah. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:49.440 Like if they couldn't maybe do it for themselves someday, they would still like think maybe it's going to help somebody else when I help somebody else. 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:55.440 And I hope people listening, any uh anybody out there living with dissociation, adopt that thinking. 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:05.440 If there are days you don't feel like you can do it for you, try and do it thinking maybe if I help myself down the road, I'll be there for somebody else. 00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.840 Maybe my pet, maybe my child, who knows? 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.079 Yeah, maybe it'll help somebody else. 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.119 Or those days you can't do it just solely for yourself. 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:14.639 Yeah, it's true. 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:22.079 I find so much compassion for animals and for right, like so much love and compassion. 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:26.960 It's in there, and it's just finding that really unique pathway, right? 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:31.760 I'm thinking of like a going on a hike and you have to go through the jungle at some point. 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:42.400 You there's no path for it, but you find the safest way that you can cut through and and create access that self-compassion or or direct it back, right? 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:55.760 It's like you gotta create a trail and then a road, and then you know, just make that that accessible because I think it does feel really inaccessible for a whole host of reasons for a number of people. 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.239 Yeah, it can feel dangerous to have hope. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:06.639 Yes, yeah, it can feel like the worst level of I am unworthy of getting better. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:08.079 We've heard these things, right? 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.360 In our offices with our clients and in the study. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:19.039 No, but uh don't give up on yourself, just keep going, plot you know, step by step, go through that program. 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:24.559 And is just to be honest, we've only tested it in two different modalities now. 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:31.440 The randomized controlled trial, our strongest methodological study was with people who were in individual therapy. 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:36.159 We have not yet tested

it with people just doing it on their own. 00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:36.639 Yeah. 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:43.840 But if you can't find a therapist or don't want to be in therapy, can't afford it, whatever, I hope it still helps. 00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.599 We desperately hope it still helps, but we just don't have research to say it was. 00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:48.480 Yeah. 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:55.519 It's also been tested, uh, FSG was tested in a group format by some researchers at Purdue University. 00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.079 And their studies have been published now. 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.840 At least one is all the way out, the other one I think is still in press. 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:12.320 Um, but they without a randomized controlled trial, they showed that going in a group format through the program helped patients with these same outcomes. 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:30.239 So PTSD improved, dissociation improved, a measure I don't think I've mentioned so far called Progress in Treatment Questionnaire, which we developed early on in our studies, and it's free and it's available out on the web through one of our websites. 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.280 I'm trying to remember which website I'm not remembering right now. 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.679 I should say what our one of our websites. 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:40.000 The main one now is called finding solidground.info. 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:40.639 Yes. 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:44.239 It's just those words together, no dots or line or dashes. 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.079 Finding solid ground.info. 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:48.480 We have information about the studies. 00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:52.000 We might have information about how to get to the pit queue on there. 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:52.480 We might have. 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:52.960 Yes. 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:54.320 Sorry, I should have looked it up. 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:55.599 Maybe you can link to it. 00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.159 Yeah, we'll definitely link to finding solid ground. 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.519 And if if I mean I would imagine we can find it and link to that. 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.599 Pick you, I'll send it to you in an email. 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:04.960 Yeah, that's perfect. 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.239 But it's there's a version for therapists, there's a version for patients. 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.960 So we've analyzed so far the patient version, and so did the Purdue researchers. 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:22.320 And it looks at adaptive capacities, the kind of capacities you want people who have experienced complex trauma to develop over time. 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.559 So it addresses things like I can work with my therapists and make progress. 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:35.280 I can have urges to do risky, maybe even self-harming things, but I don't engage in that. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.079 Or I use safe coping instead. 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.480 I found meaning in life. 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.800 Like things we didn't expect from a stabilizing program would improve. 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:56.320 I've like looking at social support and being able to deal with emotions, recognizing that if there's an item in there about not blaming themselves for trauma. 00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:57.119 Yeah. 00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:04.159 Some of these items, some of those capacities are supposed to develop later in treatment. 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:10.480 But at least with one of our papers, we looked at every item on the pit cue and it improved. 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:11.760 Every item. 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:27.440 We didn't expect that in a stabilizing stage one program, but I think it's what you've been saying, what I've been saying, about as people take in all this education we teach in FSG about this is what trauma does to people. 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:27.920 Yeah. 00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.599 These are the effects of trauma. 00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:35.280 This is not you being weak or a bad person or having asked for it. 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.519 This is what trauma does. 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:39.519 They internalize that. 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:44.320 And so even some late-stage stuff or supposedly late stage improvement started improving. 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:51.119 There's an item on there about being able, at least at times, to experience some sexual pleasure. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.320 That's a late-stage improvement. 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.559 And it's it changed significantly. 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.239 It's in our network study, we haven't analyzed it from the RCT yet. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:06.079 Anyway, so the Purdue folks showed the pit Q, the adaptive capacities improved. 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.079 Did I say self-compassion? 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:17.199 In a group format, and they they had eight groups, seven were virtual groups, only one was face to face. 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:18.000 Wow. 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:22.960 And so Frank Putnam is the first one who started saying, This is scalable. 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:24.800 This is a scalable intervention. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.119 Bethany, you've got to start scaling up. 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.000 Yes. 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:29.199 Yes, sir. 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.400 He's so passionate about helping these. 00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:39.039 And he must be just so overjoyed that that seed, that idea of the research to see this come to life. 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:54.719 I mean, I'm just going to keep dreamstorming on the podcast for hope that one day, decade later, someone, some listener will come and be like, hey, I heard this idea of a better world that you talked about with Bethany Brand and what we did with that, right? 00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.079 Oh, that would be my honor if that happens. 00:40:58.400 --> 00:40:58.639 Right. 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.880 Well, I mean, it's happening right now for with what Frank Putnam offered to you.

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.199 And like that's why the goosebumps, that's why the depth of emotion. 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:24.719 And because both you and Frank and so many of us here listening to know the depth of what this means for people, for someone to be ready to end their life and hear an encouraging voice, to hear your voice saying, step by step, you'll get there. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.280 And to make a choice to live in that moment, that's huge. 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.599 And that's one example. 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:41.679 And there's so many more moments of healing, or and the step by step you'll get there, you know, when hope feels far away. 00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.639 It's hopeful, but it's also very present moments. 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.760 It's very like look at what, okay, one step at a time, just do today. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.800 That's enough. 00:41:51.039 --> 00:42:02.239 We don't have to go to, hey, everything's gonna be okay, or we don't have to go to anything that starts to feel like a platitude or difficult to connect with from a challenged place, right? 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.000 But step by step you'll get there. 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:09.119 I mean, I could use that on a trail run too, and it's very, it's very accurate, right? 00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:16.559 Looking at the top of the mountain, like that looks really far away, but step by step you will get there, right? 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.679 I love it. 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:19.360 So we tease each other now. 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.840 Um, that was Ruth Lanius's quote step by step. 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.880 She's the one who told me I had to put that in every single blast of me. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:26.639 Nice, but she was right. 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:28.159 Yeah, wisdom. 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:35.280 And I wanted to shout out Huga Shilka is the one who came up with the the term finding solid ground is the name of the program. 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:39.599 Yes, like we do well together, and now we tease each other and ourselves. 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:41.920 Like, okay, we got to write up the paper. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.639 The final paper for FSG is not yet written. 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.840 Okay, step by step, we'll get there by step, we'll get there. 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.159 Come on, come on, don't give up. 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.039 Come on, team. 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:52.480 We got this step by step. 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:52.800 Yeah. 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:54.239 I mean, it is so much work. 00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:04.880 And I just think it boggles my mind to think about the all the work and all the layers and the people that have to contribute for something like this to come to fruition in the way that is happening. 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:12.960 So just celebrate that for all of you and encourage you to continue step by step while you're taking care of yourselves, while you're resting, taking breaks. 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:16.480 I'm curious about clinicians and any themes you've heard too. 00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:27.760 Are there are there any things that you're feeling, oh, okay, there's problems with burnout and vicarious trauma, and there's also vicarious resilience in the field with finding solid ground. 00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:32.480 What are our therapists or mental health professionals saying this does for them? 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:41.199 We haven't yet analyzed their qualitative feedback, but what we have heard, because I have read through their other comment boxes, yeah. 00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:50.880 They've said things like, I feel like I have a co-therapist, or I'm learning ways to say things to my clients that will land better. 00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:51.360 Yeah. 00:43:51.760 --> 00:44:00.960 And, you know, figuring out how to say challenging things about safety that won't be blaming, the way that you guys have phrased it in the workbook or the Videos. 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.440 We also have published already a study. 00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:11.760 Amy Myrick, a former student, who, despite not getting paid, like all of us, when we write these papers, we don't get paid, we give up our time, right? 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:17.760 Bless you, Amy, took on the lead on this paper where we looked at therapists. 00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:24.719 Did their knowledge of how to help that specific client improve over time in the study? 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.840 And it did. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:30.159 We asked them at the beginning, what are those clients' triggers for self-harm? 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:35.599 What are ways that client can use that would help them get through safely at those times? 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.920 And a bunch of kind of questions like that. 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.719 And then we asked them again at the end of the study. 00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.960 And their knowledge score for their client they participated with improved. 00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.280 So it backs up what the client said that it helped our relationship. 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:52.000 Yes. 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:59.119 You know, these were mostly, I mean, we had some therapists who had less experience, but a lot of them had a lot of training and drama. 00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.639 Some were doing talks and writing papers of their own. 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.519 Um, but but they still got something out of it. 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.199 The range of therapists we had, they personally got something out of this the program. 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:18.320 So I mean, that's those were our two goals help therapists, train therapists, and help clients. 00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:20.639 And win, win, win. 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:22.719 I like it supporting everyone. 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:36.800 And it also sounds to me like another reminder that building what we want to create, you know, focusing on the feelings that are not the trauma is really

important, right? 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:41.199 Like really finding solid ground, connecting to solid ground underneath us. 00:45:41.280 --> 00:46:08.159 I don't know if there's a nature ecotherapy element that you're conscious of there too, but hey, we're all on the same planet here, you know, and there's a very real physicality in time and space that we can tune into in a therapy session that we find helpful and that that can help us navigate through so much without, you know, it's almost like I'm thinking of the term lose the forest for the trees. 00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:22.320 Like you kind of end up so impacted by the impact of the trauma in the past that we're like, oh, well, we'll ground for five minutes at the beginning and then we'll run around the forest together, and then we'll ground for five minutes at the end. 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.000 It's like, well, what if we slowed? 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.639 Like all these things we know, all these things we've heard a million times. 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:29.519 What if we slow down even more? 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:36.400 What if we resource with even more slow, steady pace and reassurance? 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:40.480 And what if we commit to that resource over a chunk of time? 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:52.880 And what if we get support from this beautiful research team that created us at FSG and we have some structure and some flexibility in it, and we're all doing this together and we're focused on what we want more of. 00:46:53.119 --> 00:47:03.519 We want to feel solid, we want to feel grounded, we want to feel centered, we want to feel whatever, you know, the vestibular system wants to feel a little more aware of where it is and what's going on. 00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:09.519 And so all of that just feels like it threads into what we know, but we can go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, grounding. 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.039 Okay, check grounding, orienting, let's move into the processing. 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:21.760 It's like, but you're learning that that stuff allows and creates space for some of these later stage goals to arise naturally. 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:32.480 And again, it fits, but we can get so drawn into, well, I have to be doing, I have to be going under the hood and tinkering with this memory or with this part system. 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:54.320 And it's like, well, if we really create the space for it, things can also self-organize and and people can improve measurably when we hold that kind of space where it has that clarity and intention and structure and research support and humanity, right? 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:59.360 It's not so fixed, it's structured, but it's also human and responsive. 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.400 Wow, you said that beautifully. 00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:07.119 Well, I'm so glad it's recorded because I probably wouldn't be able to say it again. 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.280 I love it. 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:11.679 You nailed it. 00:48:11.840 -->

00:48:13.519 You you really nailed it. 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:25.519 Um, one thing I didn't emphasize, but you just picked up on it anyway, is we gave people access to this program, but we said go at whatever pace fits for you and your client. 00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.960 So they the team got to decide it together. 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:32.800 We did not allow them to move faster than one topic a week. 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:42.639 Because to truly take in this information, to truly journal and practice the exercises, we we do believe you need at least a week. 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.239 The Purdue team every single week did a new topic. 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:52.000 I think the vast majority of people will need more than a week on a topic. 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:52.320 Yeah. 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:59.519 And so, yes, it's a manualized program, but there's so much flexibility, just exactly what you said. 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:09.199 People with their clients, client and therapists together as a team can decide what pace works for this client at this point in their healing. 00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:15.519 Yeah, maybe in a few months, they're gonna have some life challenges and they're gonna need to slow down even further. 00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:16.800 Yeah, that's okay. 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.880 Yeah, so it's responsive. 00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:19.599 Yeah. 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:41.360 So as we wrap up for today, I'm wondering if you could give us a sample of any finding solid ground practice, a moment you've recorded videos, you've probably led a million people through these things, but what's something that might be good for therapists that are listening for any human who's listening that just wants to recenter ground for a moment? 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.280 Would you mind guiding us? 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:44.800 Not at all. 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:55.760 So, again, shouting out to Ruth Lanius that she has really helped me understand the importance of doing this gravitational vestibular balance system grounding. 00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:56.639 Let's try that. 00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.360 And I it's an invitation to anybody out there. 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.800 If you don't want to do it, obviously don't feel compelled. 00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:08.639 But if you could, I'm I'm sitting in a chair right now and I'm bouncing up and down if you don't happen to be looking at me. 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.920 I'm just gently bouncing a little bit. 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:28.719 I mean, up and down, and I can feel, and I'm inviting you to feel along with me, feel how the gravity of the earth gently holds you upright and hold you to the earth. 00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:41.679 We each have a secure footing on the earth because of this gravitational pull, it keeps us upright. 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:49.360 And for some people, sometimes going side to side helps rocking. 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:54.480 We've seen a lot of our clients sometimes rock in session or move however they move. 00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:58.559 They may at times curl up, they just think if you could. 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:07.599 Now I'm shifting a little bit into a different kind of um, I would stay with a client with gravitational grounding like we just did for a much longer. 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:14.400 But another thing we ask in our we suggest in our trainings is listen to your body. 00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:24.400 What is if you can, if you're at that place in your healing, what is it your body, what sensation is your body wanting or needing now? 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:31.599 So as people learn to do that, they learn to develop a sense of trust in their bodies. 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.280 And of course, in the beginning, it feels like I am not going there, but over time they can learn. 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:44.320 Maybe I need a warm jacket or a pillow to hold or my pet to hold. 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:47.679 I need that warmth, that fur, whatever. 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:54.800 Listen to that and see if you can allow yourself in safe ways to take care of what your body needs. 00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:58.800 Yes, so much wisdom in that. 00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:00.480 Thank you, Bethany. 00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.159 I get to see you next week in 3D. 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:08.000 Yes, we can dream storm with a whole host of people. 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:13.679 So, for folks listening, uh, if you listen to this episode the day it comes out, you can still register for the conference. 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:18.800 We'll be in Portland, Oregon, with the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association. 00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.400 It'll be Bethany and myself and my dear mama and Dr. 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:23.840 Jennifer Gomez. 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.400 Shout out to Jen for dreamstorming. 00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:29.920 We'll be doing it in the plenary, the four of us on Saturday. 00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.559 So love to have you there and joining us. 00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:37.599 And even if you're not, either way, whether you're there or not, let's keep the dream storm alive. 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.400 Let's bring together all this amazing and beautiful work. 00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:41.119 Thank you. 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:57.679 Thank you, Bethany, for everything, for all the moments, for every all the, I want to say all the blood, sweat, and tears, but all the love and compassion and care you've poured into this research and into your work with clients and into your work training other therapists and teaching for so many decades. 00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:59.119 I so appreciate you. 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:01.199 I know my clients appreciate you. 00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:12.400 I can't confirm or deny any names, of course, but uh your name comes up in session, and people say, Oh, I'm just so grateful for her and for her work and more people like that, please. 00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.519 So made my day. 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:17.440 Wonderful, wonderful human. 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.559 So thank you, thank you for coming back on the show and for sharing Finding Solid Ground with us in all the ways. 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:28.559 So it's the book, the workbook, the website, findingsolidground.info, and then app coming soon. 00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:29.119 Yes. 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:30.320 Thank you so much, Lisa. 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:31.519 Thank you, Bethany. 00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:32.639 I'll see you soon. 00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.280 All righty. 00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.400 Bye-bye. 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.559 You made it to the end of the episode. 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:42.960 Thanks for listening all the way through. 00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.559 Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you. 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.280 What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up? 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:57.679 Or what's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing or growth? 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:08.239 Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at how we can heal, or send me a message at info at howwecanheal.com. 00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:15.920 Also check out howwecanheal.com for free resources, trainings, and the full transcript of each show. 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:23.840 If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening right now. 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:30.880 If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the show with anyone it could benefit. 00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:41.199 Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. 00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:50.480 Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:55.360 In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change. 00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:59.360 Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.800 I'd like to thank our guests today again, and everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.639 Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the fur babes while I record. 00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:16.960 Last and never least, I'd like to send some love to my big brother Matt, who passed away in 2002. 00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:20.960 He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here. 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:22.400 Till next time.