08. Just Write! - Creative Writing with Ashley Hickson-Lovence의 전체 녹취록

predominately white through that, you know, so kicking off in the stands, it's politicised issues and problematic issues going on off the 00:05:46:24 - 00:06:05:06 Ashley Hickson-Lovence pitch, which sort of, you know, centres are on, which is sort of centred on the pitch. And he makes it to the very top. And despite all of the negative comments and negative issues that surround his his journey and I think it's an aspirational story, it is told in a very sort of experimental poetic fashion. 00:06:06:01 - 00:06:15:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And it's to put the reader in the shoes of what it means to be a referee, but what it means to be a black man as well. And I and I hope it's illuminating and a refreshing read for for many who pick up. 00:06:16:12 - 00:06:19:16 Robin Fuller Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's definitely the right choice to get you to do that. 00:06:20:01 - 00:06:20:11 Speaker 3 I did it. 00:06:21:11 - 00:06:37:08 Robin Fuller Yeah, that's great. So, I mean, it's such a just his story itself is it's such a rich source material, such an amazing story. But I'm really curious about the fact that it's a work of fiction. It's like a fiction as biography because it's a very real story. 00:06:37:08 - 00:07:00:02 Robin Fuller He's still you know, he's still around his death. He's a relevant and vibrant person. So first of. Like, Well. What made you want to kind of put your own spin on your own narrative on it? And where's the balance between the facts of his life and your responsibility to represent him and your needs as an author? 00:07:00:02 - 00:07:03:10 Robin Fuller To tell a story like that must be a tricky thing to balance. Absolutely. 00:07:03:11 - 00:07:25:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, it's a very good question because I was always grappling with that conundrum, wanting to tell a real, really authentic version of his story, because I felt like his story deserved it. Mm hmm. But also making sure that I was employing all the necessary linguistic and creative techniques that I love doing. 00:07:26:24 - 00:07:44:22 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I love playing around with words on the page. I love making words rhyme. I love using what's called alliteration. Two words that begin with the same letter I love. It's all about rhythm and pace music. Um, but doing that and staying sensitive and ethical to his story was probably the biggest challenge in writing this book. 00:07:45:19 - 00:07:56:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I also had fun with it. I think there is there is there is a fun in restrictions because you think about how to what extent you can push the boundary because a boundary exists, the boundaries that I wanted to be as truthful to his story as possible. 00:07:57:07 - 00:08:11:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence How far could I stretch that in a very, you know, sort of a plausible and creative fashion? And I think I've got the balance right, actually. But yeah, I took especially in his younger years, a lot of his younger years are based on real stories that he told me. 00:08:11:11 - 00:08:26:21 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I managed to meet him three or four times up in Sheffield, and I recorded about 2 hours of material each, so probably about six or 7 hours of material of us speaking, having a laugh, talking about the Caribbean, not talking about coming over and stuff like that. 00:08:26:21 - 00:08:37:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Music. Music was a big thing, which I loved. We'd actually talk that much about football, not surprisingly, and now I think about it as the first time really thought about it. But we didn't really talk that much about football. 00:08:37:20 - 00:08:38:05 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. 00:08:39:02 - 00:08:51:19 Robin Fuller And what was also his the idea of him as a character in the media. There's such a strong portrait of him, which is, I assume, probably a bit of a caricature. Like how does the reality of the man stack up to them? 00:08:51:22 - 00:09:02:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. I mean, I actually thought before writing this, I thought he was in the media and articles I've read and even growing up he had quite there was quite a negative. Portray him as a referee. They were anyway. 00:09:02:09 - 00:09:13:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Referees. Yeah. Well beware irony in particular there was quite a yeah. He was a sort of a showman. The game was all about him and referees are meant to be really quiet figures. They stay in the middle, don't redo much, you know. 00:09:13:11 - 00:09:24:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But they were this was that wasn't the impression I got that people thought of you already. But the more I went in, the more research I've done. And even speaking to him, he doesn't want any of that. He didn't want any of that attention, really. 00:09:25:12 - 00:09:36:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence He was just doing what he thought was a good job. And sometimes you had to take a few hits when you're in the middle of the action. What we've 30,000 fans watching in the stadium and God knows how many millions watching on television. 00:09:37:15 - 00:09:50:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So yeah, I really from more or less the set, the first meeting of, oh, you know, of our interactions together, I wanted to subvert any impression that he was this man in the middle who wanted all the action on him. 00:09:51:13 - 00:10:00:22 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I wanted to be quite playful with that, but it was clear that he was just trying to do the best job that he could for most PA The most part, obviously, he got, you know, he made mistakes. 00:10:00:22 - 00:10:04:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And it's, you know, being a referee, you are going to make mistakes because you're only human. 00:10:05:10 - 00:10:09:21 Robin Fuller But then you always end to that much more of that level of scrutiny that. Yes. People on. 00:10:10:07 - 00:10:25:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, exactly. Got heaps of scrutiny. But I think, you know, I talk about mistakes. I think what

makes a good story for me is that it's about a character who is flawed, you know, and makes mistakes and, you know, sometimes doesn't recover from them in the best way, responds to him in the best way. 00:10:26:14 - 00:10:41:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But that makes a compelling protagonist, you know, someone who, you know, isn't your run of the mill good guy, you know. And I do think there is a a free dimensionality to my depiction of rape, which hopefully is very relatable and accessible to readers. 00:10:42:08 - 00:10:54:22 Robin Fuller Yeah, cool. Was there anything that you sort of did you ever kind of write something or have an idea that you decided was too far from the truth in kind of had to pull yourself back from. 00:10:55:20 - 00:11:12:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, I think I am. There are loads of bits that I didn't that didn't end up in the book. Right. Probably one or two scenes, very many scenes that. Yeah. Probably did deviate a little bit too much from the truth and I wanted to stay relatively close to the truth. 00:11:12:14 - 00:11:25:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I say relatively fast because there is a flexibility there. That's it's all about creative licence. Sure. And I wanted to use all of those elements and aspects of creative licence as I could to tell a good story. But, yeah, some things didn't make it. 00:11:26:02 - 00:11:40:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, it could be a piece of truth. It could have been for other factors as well. Just didn't fit into that sort of novelistic shape of the book that I wanted to, um, you know, craft. But yeah, no, I think for most people I would say for the most part that you can say this book is a 00:11:40:15 - 00:11:50:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence book of two halves step forward in Jamaica or Jamaica and Sheffield. I. It's relatively quite close to the truth, but me being quite poetic and playful with it. And then the second half is more of the football action. 00:11:50:16 - 00:12:02:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I would say, yeah, I made a lot of it up. I made a lot of it based on reports and watching YouTube videos over and over again. So I mean, of the night buying match programs on eBay, you know, those sort of things. 00:12:02:22 - 00:12:06:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So, yeah, you know, a lot of research. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:06:13 - 00:12:23:06 Robin Fuller Cool. Yeah. Again, I just I'm really interested in this is that balance that you say of of the reality and and of telling a good story. And I think one thing I found quite interesting through the process of doing this podcast about speaking to a lot of different artists, a lot of people talk about responsibility. 00:12:23:20 - 00:12:36:03 Robin Fuller I think it's something people don't necessarily think about that much. And like artists feeling a sense of responsibility, I think sometimes that is depicted as being a little, you know, sometimes bit narcissistic or the best to kind of, you know, get about mayfly.

00:12:36:03 - 00:12:47:24 Robin Fuller It's just flitting about just making things. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. And I think it's becoming really clear that everyone is aware of the impact that their work has on the people who read it, but also on the people that are depicted in it. And, you know, especially in your case with Uriah. 00:12:51:17 - 00:13:14:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Think yeah, I think I think it's become essential, actually. I think the output of our creative craft is incredibly important, a tangible output. But I do think we need to be thinking about more so than ever before, the ethical and sensitive responsibilities that we harbour and, you know, are focused around our work. 00:13:14:16 - 00:13:37:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I think, you know, a very sort of seminal period in relation to race relations and, you know, sex and stuff like that. I think we need to be thinking, yeah, about our responsibilities actually, and who is it for and our position reality as the artist and as as a creative from which lens will people view our work, especially given the back stories and and demographic of our of of ourself. And it sounds really wordy and really like waffle, but I think it's really important that we just consider our audience from our position whenever we create something I think at the moment and making sure that yeah. 00:13:56:16 - 00:14:12:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I suppose we're just treading carefully sometimes when we need to and we need to because yeah, you know, it's important that everybody feels included and nobody feels I don't have left out or we judge a certain way. Yeah, deep, deep, deep, deep. Important. 00:14:14:04 - 00:14:23:06 Robin Fuller Yeah, I do think it's important. And I think it's like I say from having these conversations, it is becoming apparent that people is on people's minds and love. Or maybe it's just the people that I'm choosing to talk to. 00:14:23:06 - 00:14:26:09 Robin Fuller I mean, it's like a self-selecting bias. 00:14:26:09 - 00:14:30:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I don't think I don't think it needs to impact the creative output too much. 00:14:30:10 - 00:14:37:24 Robin Fuller I think that's the argument against those kind of sensibilities, isn't it, that people make it like, you know, the  “you can't say anything these days” brigade Yeah. That's the argument that's made. 00:14:41:03 - 00:14:59:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I think if you're creative enough and skillful enough, you can push the boundaries of what you want to do and still have a very successful output of your, you know, creative products, whether it be a book without it being potentially derogatory towards lots of other other demographics think but that's where we as artists have to do 00:14:59:19 - 00:15:11:21 Ashley Hickson-Lovence the hard work. Yeah whatever that might mean sufficient research or using different wording or researching what's appropriate, what's not perfect. Oh, those sort of things. You

know, I think it can be done. I think we've got to do a bit more hard work. 00:15:12:04 - 00:15:21:01 Robin Fuller That's it. You've got to see them do hard work and like, you know, if your joke has to upset people for it to be funny, just write a better fucking joke, you know? I mean. 00:15:21:01 - 00:15:26:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Exactly, exactly. So I had some coffee in my mouth, but. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that was funny enough. 00:15:27:14 - 00:15:28:07 Robin Fuller I swore though. 00:15:28:11 - 00:15:29:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Oh yeah. 00:15:29:05 - 00:15:47:12 Robin Fuller People might be offended cos anything that stops me. Sorry, go back to the book. Okay. It's a medium. Yeah. One of the really immediate, the striking things about the book and the way that it's written is the fact that it's written in second person tongues. 00:15:47:14 - 00:16:06:04 Robin Fuller Mm hmm. Which is unusual. Mm. I if I just give a, I've got like one sentence from the book I'm going to just read to people so people know what that feels like in the tunnel. The stench of the occasion consumes you, soaks into your bones, sweat and deep heat and bravado. 00:16:06:21 - 00:16:22:16 Robin Fuller So it's you, you know, it's like things to your bones. The book is written as if you the reader are Uriah any and that's that's just an interesting literary device but also in terms of like psychologically what it does to the reader. 00:16:23:15 - 00:16:30:21 Robin Fuller So I just I just wonder if you could kind of expand on the decision to do that. Yeah, I was just thinking behind that. You read it really well. 00:16:30:21 - 00:16:34:05 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I think you should it on the audio, but that was very good. I love that line. 00:16:34:12 - 00:16:35:03 Robin Fuller So it's my agent. 00:16:36:08 - 00:16:46:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. Because it's about I do like that line. It's very, it's from the first chapter, I believe maybe because you get a sense of the poet just trying to create. You've got the second verse. A new which I'll go into as to why I did it. 00:16:46:02 - 00:17:00:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But you got there and this and that. And that is just sort of that poetic rhythm. It's it's relentless. And it sort of drills into your brain, which I it's something that I really wanted to try and capture you is is very rarely done in literary fiction. 00:17:00:08 - 00:17:04:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I don't know the percentages, but if I had to guess less than 10% of literary novels. 00:17:04:18 - 00:17:08:20 Robin Fuller Like I couldn't think of anything when I, when I was trying to think like, oh, what is this like? And I couldn't. 00:17:08:20 - 00:17:20:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yes. I mean, some books go into it for a little bit. I mean, that's a bit more common. But as a book that's consistently written in second person, but Kite Runner is in the Damned United, which is a book that this sort of is modelled on, is half of. 00:17:20:16 - 00:17:38:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's written in second person. There is a book called Your Fault, which is written by someone I know who is my supervisor, and that's written entirely in second person. And that was there's a little note in the acknowledgments of your show at the back of the book which says thank you to Professor Andrew Cohen for his very 00:17:38:07 - 00:17:55:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence inspirational literary novel, Your Fault. And I was very much inspired by my by that to to write second person. But that was also just one of many factors. Essentially, when I met you already for the first time in 2018, November 2018, I met him, we had a chat, talked to him about the project and what I wanted 00:17:55:24 - 00:18:06:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence to do and why I wanted to write about it. He was he needed to be sold on the idea. And it's a bit I think he needed some convincing, but he essentially said, yes, obviously, because the book's out now. 00:18:08:06 - 00:18:25:05 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But after the meeting I was like, I don't want to write this in first person. I don't want to pretend in a way that I am as the writer Uriah Rennie, he is his own man. And even though I am a black man and he is a black man, and I used to be a referee and he 00:18:25:05 - 00:18:34:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence used to be a referee, and he's from a working class background and I'm from a working class background. I felt like that doesn't mean I can just write a story. It's first person. I don't want this to be an autobiography. 00:18:34:23 - 00:18:45:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I wanted to make it very, very clear that this is a novel. And I think I like the idea of you because actually the all for your voice coming through is essentially it's a version of me speaking to him, my hero. 00:18:45:08 - 00:19:02:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I want I like that relationship between like, you know, you went through this, you did this, you got called this, blah, blah, blah. And I quite like that dynamic and I think it's really quite fitting throughout. But I think it comes into play, especially in that last chapter, which ends in 2018. 00:19:02:11 - 00:19:17:12 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And it's me as the writer meeting him, the you are already my hero, so to speak, asking for permission to write this book. So that was really yeah, I feel that was appropriate and I didn't want it to be a ghostwritten autobiography. 00:19:17:15 - 00:19:36:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I wanted to really like, this is not an autobiography, get away from that completely. I also felt by using the second person, you allows the reader to become a referee because like you said, referees are scorned and scoffed at as being you know, these are always at the center of attention, always making, you know, big mistakes, etc. 00:19:37:01 - 00:19:47:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence . And this book is sort of saying to readers, you have a go, you give

it a go. What would you do in that situation? Right. You know, you're being faced with thousands of fans. You've got players swearing at you. 00:19:47:03 - 00:20:01:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence You've got managers swearing at you. This game is so, so important for both teams and you've got a big decision to make. What would you do? In fact, there's a moment in my free course all the way from the book where you've got a decision to make things a penalty decision or something, and there's literally a ABCD 00:20:02:01 - 00:20:15:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence who wants to be a millionaire type scenario. And again, I was being quite playful on the page about a sort of saying to the reader how what would you do in this situation? What would you do in the situation when you've got all of these other factors that are at play and you've got a big decision to 00:20:15:17 - 00:20:15:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence make? 00:20:16:13 - 00:20:34:11 Robin Fuller Yeah, it does. And I think I think that language the you you are there see that it's I don't know. I wonder sort of if the repetition of that like on the reader has like some kind of almost like psychological effect of like really kind of placing them in that in that scenario and experiencing it not as 00:20:35:01 - 00:20:39:07 Robin Fuller a voyeuristic exercise, but as a protagonist themselves. Absolutely. 00:20:39:09 - 00:20:50:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's quite hopefully quite immersive. And I mean, you're absolutely right. If you keep hearing you, you you you have to do something like, for instance, you know, you have a decision to make. You must make this decision. Now, I feel like, okay, crap, I have to make this decision. 00:20:50:09 - 00:20:51:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I feel like, yeah, it's really. 00:20:52:02 - 00:20:54:08 Robin Fuller Oh, you made a mistake. And, you know, everyone's mad at you. 00:20:54:08 - 00:21:09:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the pressure's on, isn't there? And I think. Yeah, more than just you. More traditional, but written in the perhaps a first or third person. This hopefully is a bit more absorbing and immersive because it allows you to really get actively involved if you want it to. 00:21:09:13 - 00:21:18:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I mean, I'm not saying you have to make the penalty decision necessarily, but yeah, get actively involved in in the shape of the narrative even more in some decisions at play. 00:21:18:11 - 00:21:35:03 Robin Fuller Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm with, as I said when I said there's nothing, nothing else like it in terms of like I my point of reference, the only things I could come up with were when we write treatments like creative treatments for things, for immersive experiences, we write them in the second person all the time. 00:21:35:10 - 00:21:44:14 Robin Fuller It's like, you know, you see this amazing underwater scene and you press this button and a submarine launches whatever, you know, whatever it is because we're trying to place the reader in. Environment. 00:21:44:14 - 00:21:49:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence That's so cool. Yeah. I've seen some of your bits and pieces actually in that. You do don't you. You second person is. Exactly. Yeah. 00:21:50:02 - 00:21:57:15 Robin Fuller And the other thing I came up with was I don't know if you ever I don't know these are everything for you. But like choose your own adventure books. 00:21:57:24 - 00:22:00:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I have had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:00:14 - 00:22:11:09 Robin Fuller Yeah, I did. I went through a bunch through a few when I was a kid, you know, and it's like, oh, you see a goblin and the deer attacked the cobra in terms of this page. Yes. Yeah. But again it's, it's placing you the reader in that. 00:22:11:14 - 00:22:28:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence That's cool. Yeah. I am aware of these and yeah I just like that idea of you have ownership of a decision then you. Yeah. And you decide the fate of your, your character and yeah, I like that. I can see why, you know, you work where you work because of the so engaged inspired by those little books 00:22:28:02 - 00:22:28:06 Ashley Hickson-Lovence that. 00:22:28:08 - 00:22:40:05 Robin Fuller Yeah, maybe that's it. That's fun. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. But I think yeah that aspects of that really struck me immediately. And I say and I thinking, oh, I see, I've done this. There's got to be some reasons. 00:22:40:18 - 00:22:52:24 Robin Fuller Another thing I wanted to kind of ask you about, which you've already kind of mentioned a few times, was the kind of the playfulness of the book, the playfulness of the way that it's written, and your willingness to go away from straightforward prose. 00:22:53:13 - 00:23:01:11 Robin Fuller So it's like these kind of like little I try these little bombs of playful wordplay and kind of like almost like bits of free, free verse and things like that. 00:23:01:21 - 00:23:02:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I quite like that. 00:23:03:07 - 00:23:06:10 Robin Fuller That's cool. I've got an example again. 00:23:07:14 - 00:23:10:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence You've I've read it now, he's very. 00:23:10:08 - 00:23:11:16 Speaker 3 Very smart. Yeah. 00:23:13:18 - 00:23:23:04 Robin Fuller You've got to know every nook and cranny, the name of every nook and cranny. Just having that little snippet on it saying It's beautiful, I write that. And I was like, You didn't have to do that. 00:23:24:01 - 00:23:24:20 Speaker 3 You're showing off. 00:23:25:00 - 00:23:27:12 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:27:13 - 00:23:39:12 Robin Fuller But it made me smile like reading it. Like I was like, Oh, I can. I went back and read that sentence again. And personally, I love that in a book like that, like savoring the act of reading it, I think it's really enjoyable. 00:23:39:19 - 00:23:43:14 Robin Fuller But yeah, I mean, from your, your sensibility where that's kind of. 00:23:43:18 -

00:23:57:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, the craft is so important to me, so, so important to me. And what I mean by that is the sounds of words. The sounds of words are so really, really important to me. It needs to sound like music. 00:23:58:05 - 00:24:17:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, there needs to be that rhythm call cadence to it. There needs to be half rhymes, full rhymes, playful puns. All of that makes a sense of energy and dynamism and lift the words off the page and give the reader something different, different textures to play with. 00:24:18:06 - 00:24:26:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's what I like to think about. Textures, you know, I don't watch Master Chef, but sometimes it's on and they always talk about different textures and they make sure everything is on the same color, the food, not same color. 00:24:26:24 - 00:24:41:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I need to have a bit of a rough and a bit of that ragout, whatever it is. I like to have different textures on the page and for me, different textures on the page in the literal sense is a mixture of of techniques that are quite playful, like alliteration or sibilance or half rhyme or stanzas instead of 00:24:41:10 - 00:24:58:12 Ashley Hickson-Lovence paragraphs. Or sometimes paragraphs are just two words and it's on to the next paragraph and you know, bits of bold bits of italics, whatever. I like that to be. Lots of things happening, but still and I really, really, it's so important to me maintaining a sense of clarity and readability. 00:24:58:23 - 00:25:09:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, you know, like I said before, I come from a quite working class background. I was just my, my mom when I was growing up in Hackney in East London, and I went to a school where we didn't really read or anything like that. 00:25:10:04 - 00:25:20:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, so it's important for me that this book is still very readable. Yeah, yes. I'm being playful and yes, I'm taking the make sometimes. Yeah. With how it looks and techniques to use it. 00:25:20:24 - 00:25:22:12 Robin Fuller It's not like house leaves. 00:25:22:13 - 00:25:32:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it needs to have some kind of propulsion and become like, I'm not just doing it for for, you know, no reason. There still needs to be the idea that a story is being told and there is a sense of movement. 00:25:33:07 - 00:25:37:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And it's it's a it's a bit of a page turner, you know, you want to move onto the next page. 00:25:37:16 - 00:25:37:22 Robin Fuller Yeah. 00:25:38:14 - 00:25:54:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I needed to get the balance right, you know, and I always think it's always about balance. Whenever you do, whenever you're writing a book or doing anything of the creative that similar creative ilk is, yes, you can be experimental and be quite playful, but there needs to be a sense of movement and propulsion to the end 00:25:54:07 - 00:25:55:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence goal of of of the story. 00:25:56:14 - 00:26:05:18 Robin Fuller Yeah. Yeah. And I think at least in my reading. Oh we haven't read the whole book. Yeah. I kind of like, I read a good chunk of it and then we were getting closer to this conversation and I was like. 00:26:06:13 - 00:26:13:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I made for book club. Honestly, I've got, I've got a book coming Friday. I've not started it yet, so I know exactly how it is. Yeah. 00:26:15:04 - 00:26:22:03 Robin Fuller We know that that was the thing next semester for me and it was yeah. Like it struck me as like a sense of playfulness and joyfulness of the written word. 00:26:22:03 - 00:26:33:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I was having fun for sure. Yeah, I was having fun. Having fun. And also I was thinking about the best for me, the best feeling about being an author is, yes, it's great to have the books in the bookshop, you know, because a bookshop and yes, it's great. 00:26:33:20 - 00:26:47:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, I don't know, like just people saying how much they enjoy that stuff, which is fantastic. But I love performance and reading and I love doing events and where I can. And I was thinking as I was writing this, I can't wait to read this book, read this out loud. 00:26:47:20 - 00:26:48:03 Robin Fuller And. 00:26:48:19 - 00:26:51:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I can really show off this or poetic elements to it. 00:26:51:16 - 00:26:59:21 Robin Fuller I was going to ask, do you have a background in poetry? So just the way you're talking about music and cadence in rap or in music, are you musical at all? 00:27:00:16 - 00:27:12:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, my music is a big part of my life, but I don't I mean, I don't play an instrument. I just love listening to music and I listen to all genres. But poetry was a big things that growing up, I didn't really read very much. 00:27:12:04 - 00:27:26:05 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I didn't write very much. But I found poetry about the age of 16, really. I was like, Wow, it's so short and I can read it really quickly and I've done it. That's great. And I thought if it really achievable, you know, reading a sonnet, which is 14 lines, I was like, Wow, I read 40 times, I've 00:27:26:05 - 00:27:40:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence done it, I read the whole sonnet. So I started writing Shakespearean style sonnets when I was about 17. And then that sort of started off a process of writing small poems, small poems, very angsty teenager rubbish stuff in my bedroom. 00:27:41:14 - 00:27:43:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I didn't have hasn't seen the light of day. 00:27:43:10 - 00:27:44:01 Robin Fuller But you have to say. 00:27:44:14 - 00:27:45:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Absolutely no way. 00:27:46:10 - 00:27:48:21 Robin Fuller But actually I've got them right here. Meet them. 00:27:49:17 - 00:28:00:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And here's a picture of you and you folks. Yeah. So I started off writing poetry, but

I've never performed poetry. I never did open. There was a few times right when I signed up to open mikes in Shoreditch around the corner from where I grew up and I never went. 00:28:00:22 - 00:28:15:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I didn't they were actually Bex and I didn't go up because I was too scared as I'm not reading him. No way. Okay. And I would like. So I never actually performance my poems even though I did write quite a bit in in sixth form and then early days of university. 00:28:16:03 - 00:28:34:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But so inside I'm a frustrated poet wanting to do open mikes again. I'm wanting to be confidently open Mike which I definitely am now. But yeah, that does, you know, my prose. I think both your show, which is my second novel in the free line to draw and my love of poetry the way words sound and yeah 00:28:34:00 - 00:28:42:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence , just the syntax and the order of words and being playful and yeah, all of that feeds into my love of spoken word poetry. Yeah. And with where poetry too. 00:28:43:03 - 00:28:59:07 Robin Fuller Yeah. Great. The other sort of element of that kind of playfulness that again you kind of already talk show and I think we're talking about kind of texture on the page. And so it's just in the like the format of it, there is the writing itself either from diverting from straightforward prose to integrity. 00:28:59:07 - 00:29:19:20 Robin Fuller This is kind of like bullet point list of things. But also this throughout the book is these kind of really interesting constructions of typesetting that conveys something to the reader, mostly the meanings inherent to the words themselves and the way they're written, but also just the shape that they make on the page. 00:29:21:13 - 00:29:26:14 Robin Fuller Yeah, again, this is something that I notice and I thought was really interesting. If you could just expand on that. 00:29:27:13 - 00:29:45:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I don't really have any grand plans before I started writing it. Whenever I write any book, I sort of just go my nerve and that just means just write and see what happens with your show. So your show was written as part of my creative writing PhD at UEA, so I had to keep informing and updating my 00:29:45:01 - 00:29:55:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence my two supervisors about what I was doing with the book and what sort of shape it had and what was happening in chapter two and what was happening chapter three, etc., which I found really uncomfortable and quite stifling because I don't really write like that. 00:29:56:00 - 00:30:10:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I tend to just write and see what happens. And as part of that, right and see what happens is the weirdness that sometimes occurs on the page. But yeah, there, there are. I remember I tweeted about I think it was 2019. 00:30:10:07 - 00:30:31:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I said, I tweeted something about just submitted my manuscript to my agent, my literary agent. I feel

sorry for the typesetter because I know, you know, there are weird stuff. It's weird stuff happening on the page. There's whistles at one point and then there's love hearts at one point and there's formations and yeah, there's lots going on 00:30:32:18 - 00:30:50:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence . But I think football and you know, I hate talking about football too much because I think this is a book for more than just football. Fans are really always very keen to stress that in any article I write, any and any podcast to do, etc. But this is not just a bit for football fans, but football is 00:30:50:13 - 00:31:09:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence , is very dynamic. There's lots of movement, you know, it's, it's very fluid sport. And I wanted to try and emulate that. So fluidity on the page. I don't want it to be static. I didn't want it to be 12 lines of, you know, 12 lines of prose and then a new paragraph and another 12 lines. 00:31:09:24 - 00:31:23:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's not how football was played. That's not how I watch football or view football. So I wanted the whole novel to emulate the sort of yeah, the movement and dynamism and free flowing action of a football match. 00:31:23:03 - 00:31:41:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I think that comes in just how it's typesetting, how it looks on in the book of Everything. It's a bit of everything. There are a few sections like the whistle sections. In fact, I think there are. I mean, I said I think at the beginning of section to our real comments, I found on fans forums and 00:31:41:16 - 00:31:45:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Twitter and Facebook about your irony. Which are often quite negative. 00:31:45:20 - 00:31:46:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:31:47:01 - 00:31:47:20 Robin Fuller Yeah. And I have. 00:31:47:21 - 00:31:58:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Four. Yeah. It's quite helpful. Yeah. Quite hurtful. And I think those are that probably there are few sections in this book where I was like he might not like that bit because it's literally just about three or four pages of all the negative. 00:31:58:01 - 00:32:10:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And these are all real comments. I haven't changed him. Some have typos. Some of them are now written in nontraditional grammar. But I decided to keep them as they were to try and replicate the authenticity of some of the stuff that he went through when he was in the middle. 00:32:11:03 - 00:32:17:06 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I do try to balance out with a nice a bit at the end, but for the most part, yeah. It's quite me. Hmm hmm. Hmm. 00:32:17:19 - 00:32:25:00 Robin Fuller Yeah. I think that just again, as you were saying earlier, shows the sort of the level of adversity that he faced. Yeah, you know, I. 00:32:25:00 - 00:32:25:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Know he became. 00:32:25:23 - 00:32:50:18 Robin Fuller An advocate of. Yeah, yeah. Get on it. You've kind of already started touching on this. So it's a nice segway. I like it when it's just talking about your working process. So a lot of the people I've spoken to in this podcast, this is the eighth episode, by the way, say, you know, it's not like it's not 00:32:50:19 - 00:33:02:13 Robin Fuller like I've got a vast back, back catalog, but most the people I've spoken to, I have at least a little bit of insight into their world. You know, maybe I've done a little bit for something that's adjacent to what they do. 00:33:03:12 - 00:33:18:17 Robin Fuller But like I said in my notes area says writing a whole last novel is wild because to me is I like if someone told me I had to write a novel, where do you start? Where do you start with something like that? 00:33:18:18 - 00:33:20:12 Robin Fuller It seems like such a massive undertaking to me. 00:33:21:02 - 00:33:32:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence There's a book in everyone. I'm a firm believer that someone who teaches creative writing. I do a bit tutoring and lecturing, mentoring and all sorts. I do think there's a book in everyone. So, yeah, there's there's hope. Yes. 00:33:32:07 - 00:33:49:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence All right. Yeah. It's still surprising me that that sounds really naive. I think everyone is so surprised me that the idea of writing a novel, raising it can be daunting for most. And I do get it. But there's so many things that I would find more more daunting. 00:33:49:14 - 00:34:09:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I've just become apparent. That's flippin scary. And yeah, I'd rather I do novels and get some sleep. But yet. Yeah, no, it's. It's it's not easy, I think. So the Free nine two, which was released in 2019, is my first novel and I wrote that on my way to work. 00:34:09:03 - 00:34:23:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I had no time. I was a teacher in London and I had very little time to put to one side and say, I'm going to write this novel now. There was none of that. It was, I have 20 minutes to get to work, do better writing on my phone, 20 minutes back, writing my phone. 00:34:24:00 - 00:34:37:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I might have an hour before bed if I'm lucky, and I don't watch too much telly, which sometimes it happened. So that was very, very little time to write the free nine two. But I do think, you know, the frequency with the rawness is conducive because of that. 00:34:37:00 - 00:34:46:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence You know, it is a bit rough and ready and it is a bit of fun. But yeah, I wrote that in very fleeting moments and I could when I could do that with your show. It was part of my PhD. 00:34:47:01 - 00:34:58:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I was I was getting paid not very much. That's why I moved to Norwich. I was getting paid to write this book. So had a lot time. I would wake up and I had I had a day to write your show. 00:34:59:08 - 00:35:10:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I had a lot of thinking time and research time to write this book. So it's very different now. I'm writing my third and fourth novel at the same time. And again, I have very little time

because I now working my part. 00:35:10:17 - 00:35:24:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence She's not finished. I am not working again. And now, like I said, as a new dad, I have no time. And I'm back into the situation like I was with three nine team. I'm trying to find 50 minutes, right? 00:35:24:08 - 00:35:36:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. I'm trying to grab any fleeting bit of time I can to just write down a few lines, and I sometimes do it on my phone. You know, that counts. But, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's to take a lot longer. 00:35:36:15 - 00:35:53:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's going to be it's going to be hard. But I think it's it's always going to be a bit hard. And I think that's the fun part, isn't it? I think trying to overcome obstacles relating to time, overcome obstacles relating to plot, overcome obstacles relating to characterization and making your characters believable and making your your theme topical 00:35:54:02 - 00:35:56:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence . All of these factors come into play. It's never, never easy. 00:35:56:19 - 00:36:11:21 Robin Fuller Mm hmm. From a kind of practical point, I guess. Do you do you kind of write a synopsis to begin? Like, do you know, like what the big picture is, what the shape of the story is? Do you and I like diagram it out in the shape of a story? 00:36:12:00 - 00:36:17:08 Robin Fuller Do any of that stuff or do you just start writing and see what happens? What's your yeah, what's your what's your process though? 00:36:17:17 - 00:36:31:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I've got a little study here in Norwich where I am and I, I've got a big whiteboard and I've got post-it notes and I've got board markers and I've got ten moleskin, a couple of moleskin that I bought every time I go to Liverpool Street Station and I'm not use any of them. 00:36:31:16 - 00:36:38:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I really want to be one of those writers that go write in chapter two. This happened and then chapter is linked to chapter five because I want to be called. 00:36:38:15 - 00:36:39:08 Robin Fuller The Golden Threats. 00:36:39:11 - 00:36:55:06 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I really, really wish I was one of those writers, but I can't. I'm not, um, I just have to write. I just have to write, and I just go, Oh, that's a nice line. I do a lot of people watching, a lot of eavesdropping, and I just write down a line that I think is 00:36:55:06 - 00:37:09:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence cool and on my phone and that I don't like. I've got some lines here and it's try to make a story out of it. That's my technique. It's a bit rough and ready. But the great thing about that is that what I want to stress, especially when writing, is that there is no right way of doing it 00:37:09:20 - 00:37:22:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence , there is no right way of doing it. And I think at the moment I lecture and teach at universities and they want to know, okay, they won't know about obviously they don't know about narrative arcs and shapes and inciting incidents and new ones. 00:37:22:07 - 00:37:37:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's all very important. But sometimes I say don't overfocus on that, you know, sometimes just just write right from the heart and see what happens. And then you can always tweak the shape now and then, you know, like, you know, I have obviously written stuff and it's garbage. 00:37:37:23 - 00:37:49:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I think that's where editing is important. Yeah, but I think just getting the first draft down, the family would just get the first draft out and do all tweaks and edits afterwards. But once you've achieved that milestone, it feels amazing. 00:37:50:01 - 00:37:56:03 Robin Fuller Yeah. Yeah. And so editing is that do you do self-edit? Do you involve anyone else at that point in the process? 00:37:56:23 - 00:38:14:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, I think you have to do a bit self editing. That's very, very important. So read it through. Read it for at least twice. Read it free aloud. Make sure. Because even if it isn't a poetic prose style like me, I think even if it's more traditional prose style, I think reading out loud is so important and 00:38:14:16 - 00:38:34:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence making sure there's no words that job or full flat, no phrases that don't work. Scene setting worldbuilding. Characterization. It's all important to read your work aloud. So that's important. Read it again. You can always read it again. I feel as though you can always read for your drafts and then it is very important to have at least 00:38:34:00 - 00:38:46:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence one person to share it with. It could be a member of your family or close friend or a beta reader for someone. Perhaps you know that you've met online or something that can that's also a writer and you can share your work. 00:38:47:03 - 00:38:50:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I think it's always important to have at least one or two people to share it with. 00:38:51:01 - 00:38:52:12 Robin Fuller I've just realized something. 00:38:52:14 - 00:38:52:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Well. 00:38:53:11 - 00:39:07:06 Robin Fuller That a beta reader. Yeah. I remember seeing someone a comment saying saying I'm happy to beta for you and I couldn't agree more what context it was. I, I have no idea what it meant and I didn't have the chance to, to ask. 00:39:07:13 - 00:39:10:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, that's it. Right. There we go. Yeah, it's a beta. 00:39:10:16 - 00:39:11:03 Robin Fuller Beta what? 00:39:11:12 - 00:39:24:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, well, I've never actually used someone who isn't in that informal sense, but I'm guess it's just someone that usually be treated. You can sort of swap your work actually, but you have to be someone who can just read your work for you and just check. 00:39:24:08 - 00:39:24:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Check. It's good. 00:39:25:02 - 00:39:29:01 Robin Fuller Okay. And this is just

like a collaborative thing that you do with another another author or something. 00:39:29:03 - 00:39:43:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes if it might be someone in your reading rights or your writing group or someone you interact with online. But usually, you know. Yeah, but the idea is that you might swap works. You read that work. 00:39:43:18 - 00:39:49:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So it's that. But yeah, you time you said you just for something if it was a voice that you haven't pressed record or something. 00:39:49:16 - 00:39:51:01 Speaker 3 I've got it. 00:39:51:10 - 00:39:56:13 Robin Fuller I'll go. That hasn't happened to me. I can figure if that happens, it's. That's waiting for me. I'm sure of it. 00:39:56:14 - 00:39:58:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I would say writing is. 00:39:58:05 - 00:39:59:16 Robin Fuller Does go everyday Cisco Daemon. 00:40:00:12 - 00:40:01:07 Speaker 3 Yeah, it's good. 00:40:01:24 - 00:40:03:14 Robin Fuller That's what this reader is like. Right. 00:40:03:14 - 00:40:15:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But it's definitely more collaborative than, than one things I think writing you know, I think they I think you doing a know sort of it for it to be overcrowded with beta readers or or people getting their thoughts and feelings in bits. 00:40:16:07 - 00:40:31:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. It's good to share with people. Yeah. Like my, my, my partner. She's an English teacher. She's the best, actually. And because she reads my work and tells me like, well, this bit doesn't make sense and this bit doesn't quite hang together and that's, that's really great. 00:40:31:08 - 00:40:35:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So, yeah, find yourself a someone like someone like my partner. 00:40:36:08 - 00:40:36:16 Speaker 3 Okay. 00:40:37:20 - 00:40:47:20 Robin Fuller And yeah, I was going to ask you about sort of like the day to day of of like writing a novel on, you know, was it Roald Dahl voiced? He used to go and sit in the shed with his teacher on his lap. 00:40:47:21 - 00:40:52:13 Robin Fuller That's right. Yes. That's not you. You say he is telling you just grab him minutes where you can like. Yeah. 00:40:52:19 - 00:41:11:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I mean I do want to change that. I do want more time to write. I've got study all my books and all the other material that I need and my computer and stuff. And yeah. When it's, when it's a quite a week or the holidays from, from time and stuff, I try to try to say, yeah, this 00:41:11:15 - 00:41:23:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence is writing time. But again, you know, it's quite fluid. I'll be honest, it's quite fluid. Like I don't like to put too much pressure on myself and say, I want to write 2000 words today. Yeah, but I do give myself a sort of longer time deadline. 00:41:23:08 - 00:41:38:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. So by the end of next month, you need to finish your first draft or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, it is more difficult working. You know, I think it's always, you know, when you are a creative and a creative that has a job part time or full time, it's always that balance, isn't it? 00:41:38:13 - 00:41:45:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, but yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting in there. I think you need to give yourself enough time to, you know, for your craft. Yeah. 00:41:46:03 - 00:42:05:18 Robin Fuller Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's in balance is again like so important base that balance of its time finding time but also finding like just bandwidth. Like mental bandwidth. Yeah. Yeah. Like I kind of started guys to freelance and I kind of came into the a slightly more 9 to 5 world of working in a studio environment 00:42:06:00 - 00:42:19:18 Robin Fuller with the idea that like in the evenings, I'd be so free to, to work on my own stuff. And I do, but a lot less than I thought I might because I just don't have the bandwidth. I don't have the like a creative juices just is used up. 00:42:20:03 - 00:42:25:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I mean, this is such a valid point. Yeah. It's all well and good saying yeah you come home and that's my my day job done and now time to write. 00:42:25:20 - 00:42:26:24 Robin Fuller But knackered and stuff. 00:42:27:01 - 00:42:45:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Physically exhausted. Yeah, it's difficult. And I suppose especially when you're trying to be creative, you know, use a different part of the brain and it's really hard to just go into it cold. And I suppose. TV ratings say, what I've been finding out recently is that I'm working on a novel and if I don't work on it 00:42:45:04 - 00:42:55:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence for a few days to a week, I'll go back to I'm like, What the hell is this? Like, I've completely forgotten. Like, the voice almost where I'm in the scene. Lost the magic of the scene, the mojo of the story. 00:42:55:15 - 00:43:03:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And takes me while I have to read a bit. And then before you know what? I'm reading it and going, okay, that's it. That's it for today, you know, no more. There's no time to write now. So it is difficult. 00:43:03:24 - 00:43:15:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence The longer you leave it, the bigger the gaps between. It's harder to keep that momentum. Sometimes it's about momentum. But yeah, I mean, is it's a struggle. But I think the output I think the end product is always worth it for me. 00:43:15:03 - 00:43:26:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence You know, when you get to a story, the end of a novel or the end of a novella or collection of short stories or short story, whatever you're writing, whatever you're working on, it feels amazing. And I'm a big fan of celebrating small achievements and small achievements. 00:43:27:09 - 00:43:39:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Celebrating all achievements, though small, may be finishing a chapter, the big one, maybe finishing off a first draft. And it's yes, it's rubbish. Yes. There's continuity problems. Yes, there are huge amounts of typos, but

you've done it. Go and have a drink. 00:43:39:21 - 00:43:42:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, you've done it. Big fan of that. 00:43:42:11 - 00:43:44:00 Robin Fuller Yeah, nice. I agree. 00:43:45:06 - 00:43:46:19 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Especially the drink part and. 00:43:46:20 - 00:43:57:20 Robin Fuller Well, you know. Yeah. Celebrating and rewarding yourself. Yeah. And just like being taking pride in those, like, small achievements, like, it's just a great phrase. Like doing something badly is better than not doing it at all, you know? 00:43:57:20 - 00:43:58:06 Robin Fuller Absolutely. 00:43:58:06 - 00:44:07:12 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's absolutely. Yeah, I've got a I'm going to absolutely marry the quote so much. I mean, never quite so much. I'm not going to say it, but he's on the same line. So it's just that your quote. 00:44:08:15 - 00:44:11:09 Robin Fuller I don't even know what a moment ago it was. It was probably a murder. 00:44:13:06 - 00:44:15:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Frankly. So there are no sources. We're very sorry. Yeah. 00:44:15:23 - 00:44:19:12 Robin Fuller So I could always drop them in, like in post. I would read. 00:44:20:00 - 00:44:20:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Those for that. 00:44:21:23 - 00:44:25:20 Robin Fuller But you are a man who's written two novels, so obviously you're finding that time. You are? 00:44:26:04 - 00:44:42:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. Doing something because it excites me. You know, it's fun. We talk about the playfulness of the language in your show that writing for me is so important. You know, I don't feel myself if I'm not writing or if I'm not thinking about writing, if I'm not writing lines and if I have a hard enough day teaching 00:44:42:23 - 00:44:54:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence and then I have to come home and I do emails and I do a bit marking, for me, writing is the treat at the very end of the day sometimes and I can say, Look, I deserve this and this is the fun part. 00:44:54:07 - 00:45:08:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I think that's where the playful language is so useful to me because you know, I'm having fun when I'm writing it. Yeah, I'm having fun messing around of rhyme and loose rhyme. And if it's like being in the studio now, a musician in the studio, you know, you're messing with beats and stuff as well. 00:45:08:13 - 00:45:17:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I feel like sometimes actually, in fact, I would say my study kind of looks like a like a studio in some way. You know, I've got my my desk and I've got my laptop and I've got my buttons. 00:45:17:09 - 00:45:24:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Just don't do anything. But yeah, no, for me, it's this is fun and it's my treats at the end of the day sometimes. 00:45:24:24 - 00:45:36:06 Robin Fuller Yeah. But is that, is that the enjoyment of the process that keeps you motivated to do it? I think it's ultimately stuff that makes it good as well, because it's that that kind of gives you the energy to put everything into it. 00:45:37:02 - 00:45:45:09 Robin Fuller So yeah, I think you have to, you have to enjoy your work. Otherwise yeah, if you kind of just suffering through it to get it done, they're not going to be good as that. 00:45:45:09 - 00:45:48:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Will manifest itself in the writing. And I believe I won't enjoy it if you're not enjoying it. 00:45:48:23 - 00:46:02:23 Robin Fuller Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of stage of yeah, I'm, I'm just curious about that as well. Like again, I think this there's quite a strong tradition of of of creatives also kind of bouncing like a kind of academic career and kind of creative output. 00:46:03:20 - 00:46:08:09 Robin Fuller So what some see you're lecturing in creative writing. Tutoring, is that right? 00:46:08:24 - 00:46:20:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. So I'm a part time lecturer, but essentially, I mean, I struggle to say no to things, so I say yes to a lot of things. 00:46:21:15 - 00:46:27:04 Robin Fuller You said yes, this podcast very quickly, but this is this the quickest I've ever gone from emailing someone to having the quick. 00:46:27:04 - 00:46:28:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Turnaround, isn't it? Yeah. 00:46:28:09 - 00:46:29:04 Robin Fuller By like, you. 00:46:29:10 - 00:46:41:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Know, I mean I'm having, I'm having fun, which is, which is good. Um, but yeah, I mean, a lot of things, there's very, very little things that I regret, actually. I enjoy. I enjoyed talking about the book and talking to my craft. 00:46:42:03 - 00:46:52:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Um, I for most part, really joy teaching. And then the reason why I would want to take a break, which I'm considering for a little while, is just because I want to get my books done. So yeah. Yeah. 00:46:53:00 - 00:47:09:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I do a bit of part time lecturing. Um, I also work for a charity confessed story, which involves me going to secondary schools and giving workshops to students in secondary schools, doing poetry, doing a bit prose work, working on some kind of anthology. 00:47:10:03 - 00:47:20:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's really great and really rewarding and I love it. I love working in secondary schools. I used to be a secondary school English teacher, but anything that if I was doing assemblies or talks or workshops, I'm all over. 00:47:20:03 - 00:47:36:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I just think it's, you know, I feel like I'm doing my part to try and hopefully inspire future writers, especially from marginalized backgrounds as well. So, um, you know, you know, write young writers of color, young students of color, etc. or, or young girls or whatever it is, you know, people who, who, who for a long time 00:47:36:04 - 00:47:48:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence in society have been pushed to the. Margins a little bit. Yeah, so that's great. I do quite a lot mentoring of future writers. I do some judging for the National Center for writing,

do some tutoring for the National Center writing here in Norwich. 00:47:49:17 - 00:48:05:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, lots going on, going on. But I do enjoy it. I do enjoy it. I think I am. Yeah. I feel like I just want to impart my my journey so far in the bit about the process, trying to unpack the process of publishing because it can be a little bit mystifying at times. 00:48:05:20 - 00:48:18:06 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, how do I get published? Why do I need an agent? I don't even know you need a literary agent. You know, not everyone needs one, but 95% of the time you need a literary agent to get published and can represent you to publishing houses and stuff. 00:48:18:07 - 00:48:18:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I didn't. 00:48:18:22 - 00:48:20:03 Robin Fuller Ideally need an intellectual. 00:48:20:03 - 00:48:35:05 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Agent. They just deal with the boring stuff. Yeah. And they also look for your work and go, okay, changes, changes, change. This would be good here. This one kid. Hey, that's right. Yeah, etc.. So all of these sort of things are really, really helpful and really useful and keep me busy. 00:48:36:12 - 00:48:45:13 Robin Fuller Do you think that the academic work, do you think that has any impact on the way that you approach your your craft and your process? 00:48:46:07 - 00:49:05:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yes, I think so. Yeah. I'm always around words and writers. And I've noticed since I've been working in universities in different capacities for about since starting my pay actually for about three or four years actually. So when I was doing my UEA, I was also doing some associate tutoring. 00:49:05:03 - 00:49:24:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So sort of teaching undergrads as part to get a bit more experience and stuff. And I've noticed in just three or four years that writers are beginning to push the boundaries of what how stories are told on the page and, um, you know, the structure of, of words and removing capital letters and punctuation and playing around on 00:49:24:09 - 00:49:36:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence the page, all those sort of things. I've noticed that a lot in the last three or four years, and I think it's great because it's also saying, allow me to have be a bit more playful with my words and we're bouncing off each other and talking about language, talking about books. 00:49:37:01 - 00:49:54:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's great. Yeah, really conducive. Really conducive. And it's really exciting. I work with some, you know, I teach on in May, the M.A. course, the famous prose M.A. course at UEA here. Yeah. And they are amazing writers. And sometimes I find it hard to suggest things to improve because I'm like, this is so this is better than 00:49:54:09 - 00:50:06:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I can write, like, teach me. But yeah, no, it's really good to just think about words. Yeah. And the best way is to tell a story, to make it compelling and engaging and take readers on a journey. 00:50:06:08 - 00:50:19:11 Robin Fuller Mm hmm. Yeah, I think I said I don't believe lecturing is well in animation, and I. And I found that it really made me examine my own ground because I was pointing out to people like, this is best practice. 00:50:19:12 - 00:50:30:07 Robin Fuller You know, if you do this, if you do this, then your story will be this much stronger. If your character acts in this way, if the movement is like this, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then had to be like, am I doing this for my own advice? 00:50:30:07 - 00:50:39:01 Robin Fuller Like and it really is. Yeah. It made me examine my practice to make sure I was, like, doing all the practice, what I preach, basically. Absolutely. 00:50:39:01 - 00:50:53:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, I find myself doing that. But I also, like I said before, I'm keen to stress that sometimes you can disregard a lot of it. Yeah. And right from the heart, I really think that I think it's very important to be aware of certain conventions of a story in the ingredients of a story, talk about shape and 00:50:53:03 - 00:51:05:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence all that, but actually sometimes is right. And I think that's really hard for my students to just take them on board. But I think that's just right. That's right. And that for most part, it's really, really been really helpful. 00:51:05:19 - 00:51:12:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I mean, really great, actually. And I've noticed a real difference in my own writing since. Since starting to teach, especially this year. 00:51:13:05 - 00:51:20:24 Robin Fuller Yeah, yeah, I agree. And so the passion that you did with that was just that was practice based purely because you said you write the novel as as part of it. 00:51:21:00 - 00:51:39:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. So it's creative and critical writing at UEA, about 65, 70% of my thesis was my novel, your show. And then the rest of the percentage that made me do any math was the critical element in which I was discussing the wider themes of my novel in a sort of academic essay. 00:51:40:23 - 00:52:03:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So my novel is, you know, at its core, it's about a black sportsman and I will refer you already. So I discussed and looked at and examined other books of a similar vein in the past that look at black sportsmen and black footballers in particular, and unpicked it, analyzed it was, you know, to see if it's doing 00:52:03:01 - 00:52:23:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence a good job, essentially. And that was yeah, I mean, this is a very abridged version of my thesis, but that was essentially what it was about reading lots of autobiographies. It's we tend to find these that football autobiographies of black footballers are written by white journalists and there's something that doesn't quite fit right in the writing. 00:52:23:08 - 00:52:36:09 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I mean, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done. I think it can be done. But again, it's about the

research and it's about doing the hard work. And sometimes it's a bit too sensationalized and generalized in the depiction of black sportsmen. 00:52:36:09 - 00:52:47:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So. My your show is a response to that by saying this is a better way to do it. You know, this is a better way to re articulate a life of a black man. That's been well researched. Hmm. 00:52:47:22 - 00:52:59:24 Robin Fuller And do you have any kind of further, like, academic plans in terms of, like, is he kind of still in that world of academia as well? In terms of and I mean, I think publishing papers and things like that, yeah. 00:53:00:19 - 00:53:15:21 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I thought I was going to do that after a couple of years. You realize them as a bit of a slog, you know, it's hard work and that's why I've got so much respect for fantastic lecturers and tutors I've had for doing my M.A. in London and doing my Ph.D. here in Norwich. 00:53:16:21 - 00:53:27:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's hard work, you know, it's relentless. Know you do get asked to read a lot of students work, read a lot generally. And I do want to do that. I do want to do that. And I just need a bit more time, I think. 00:53:27:16 - 00:53:42:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So I'm going to take a little break next year, focus on finishing those two books, focus on my tutoring and my mentoring and going to schools and and whatnot, and then and then reassess and hopefully do that properly, you know, enter the world of academia properly. 00:53:44:01 - 00:53:54:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence BE Dr. Ashley Hicks and events guide do papers go to conferences, you know, have a, have a satchel and all of those things. Yeah, that's what I wouldn't do. But I need a few more years, I think. 00:53:55:04 - 00:53:56:08 Robin Fuller Dr. Hicks. And love it. 00:53:56:15 - 00:53:58:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. In the house. Yeah. Yeah, right. 00:53:58:23 - 00:54:03:03 Robin Fuller That's, that's a, that's a good ring to her. That's great. Thanks Grace. Hi Sessions. 00:54:03:10 - 00:54:05:07 Ashley Hickson-Lovence That's actually been the one show or something. 00:54:09:10 - 00:54:19:19 Robin Fuller So you've already mentioned the the new books that you working on. So yeah, just kind of thinking about future plans, upcoming work. Is there anything you can kind of you can kind of share about, about the projects you're working on? 00:54:19:19 - 00:54:20:03 Robin Fuller Yeah, I. 00:54:20:03 - 00:54:33:08 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Think anything I do share is, is still up in the air. I might not see the light of day and that's, that's, you know, I've only had one book contract with Faber who publish your show sometimes, you know, you might find people who have to book contracts so people could buy. 00:54:33:08 - 00:54:47:15 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Mine was just the one. So anything I do right or do finish it, there's no guarantee that it will get published. But I'm currently working on two novels. One of

them's really short, and it's not because of time, I promise, and not because I'm lazy, I promise. 00:54:47:15 - 00:55:06:14 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I wanted it to be quite short. Um, is told in three parts and it's the first part I settled on on a, on a plane that crashes. That's probably what I reveal for that one. But so in a few weeks I'm going to go on to I booked a 30 minute plane ride on a single engine 00:55:06:15 - 00:55:17:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Malibu Piper plane around Essex for research purposes. So I'm going to just fly around for a bit and just write notes on my phone to try and capture what it was like to be on a plane because it was quite a small plane. 00:55:19:08 - 00:55:29:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. And yeah, that's the first part of my of that novel. I'm hoping to finish that by the end of the year and see, see what happens. And that goes out for submission and maybe a publisher will take it on. 00:55:29:23 - 00:55:45:16 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So we'll see what happens there. And I've nearly finished. In fact, I'm just maybe a week or two from finishing a way which is young adult and novel novella written in verse, so written something like four out. So it looks like a soul on the page. 00:55:45:16 - 00:56:02:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I know some slight lyrics on the page and it's set in Norwich. Um, and they say write what? You know, it's about a black boy from London, a teenage boy who moves to Norwich and yeah, tries to assimilate, you know, in a very sort of it's that's very different here to being in London. 00:56:02:23 - 00:56:15:24 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's something that I felt when I moved in 2018. And yeah, it's about, you know, trying to find himself gaining confidence and using that his love of poetry, music to to overcome any, any obstacles that he faces in a local school here. 00:56:16:20 - 00:56:34:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And that's very similar images in there. I've you know, I've got an illustrator working on images. So, yeah, I'm really I'm really excited about that. And also hopefully it puts Norwich on the map. Me Norwich is already on the military, but um, yeah, it's a Norwich based story that I'm really proud of. 00:56:34:17 - 00:56:35:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Really proud of. Yeah. 00:56:35:21 - 00:56:52:03 Robin Fuller And just, I'm just curious about this really just thinking about the broader context of creative writing outside of kind of novels and things. Do you have any actually have you ever think about writing screenplays or writing for games or you know, there's so many avenues for creative writers to explore. 00:56:52:15 - 00:56:55:21 Robin Fuller Do you do you have any ambitions there to something you think about? 00:56:56:14 - 00:57:17:21 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I suppose I'm just a little bit scared to. I wish I I'd been asked a few times, actually, about screenplays, and I've always been a bit standoffish because I've just don't know. I don't know. I have taught I've taught and taught screenplay and script writing at university level before and games writing actually. 00:57:18:13 - 00:57:35:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But I didn't really know what I was talking about. But yeah, I think I just love writing novels. I think if someone taught me how to do it well then I might consider it. But I feel a bit like a fish out of water and I just enjoy writing novels. 00:57:35:17 - 00:57:46:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I. I feel like. I mean. The beginning of the process of pushing the boundaries of what a novel has to be. And I'm having so much fun doing that. They want to really sort of distract myself with other things at the moment. 00:57:46:21 - 00:57:55:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But yeah, I've been asked quite a few times and I do think know speaking about the Free nine to was optioned for television actually. And I was asked if. 00:57:55:17 - 00:57:56:22 Robin Fuller I'd be interesting if. 00:57:57:04 - 00:58:13:18 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I was asked to be part of the team to write the script, actually. And I didn't didn't go for it. And your show, there has been some tentative words about screenplay stuff and script stuff. Again, I would be a bit. 00:58:14:13 - 00:58:19:22 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah, I'm not sure if I would be. I just think I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't know what I'm doing. So I'll leave in the hands of people who would. 00:58:20:07 - 00:58:33:06 Robin Fuller That's fair enough. That's fair enough. Yeah, I realize we've barely spoken about the three and into your first novel yet. We're kind of getting close on time, but the big idea behind it, I guess, is that it's it's told from so many different people's point of view. 00:58:33:06 - 00:58:49:09 Robin Fuller It's one narrative told from many, many different points of view. And when I have summarizing it as a better job. Yeah, again, just as a literary device is so inventive and interesting. I'm curious, what was the spark that kind of fueled that? 00:58:49:09 - 00:58:49:16 Robin Fuller Yeah. 00:58:49:16 - 00:59:07:01 Ashley Hickson-Lovence The Free nine series. Yeah. It's a madness. It's a mad journey. Is it's it's crazy. And I'm so I'm proud of it in so many ways. But like I said before, it's a little bit rough and ready. You know, like most 75% of the free 90 was written on my phone and in bits and pieces. 00:59:07:01 - 00:59:19:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence I had a folder for every character. You know, it's I think it's 13. It's been so many years now, 13 different characters on a on a single decker bus set. The whole book centers on just one single bus journey over 36 minutes. 00:59:20:12 - 00:59:35:04 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yeah. And, you know, it's crazy. Every character is a little bit different. You know, it tries to depict the good, the bad, the rich, the poor, the homeless and the home dwelling of society. And even though it's set in London, I think it is representative of any big city

in England. 00:59:35:04 - 00:59:52:22 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So it's it's about the, you know, those gaps between certain demographics. And you've got a character who is a racist football fan. And every every second word is a swear word. We've got you know, I know grandma who doesn't use technology and doesn't know where she's going. 00:59:53:02 - 01:00:07:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence We've got a homeless man who who thinks he's talking to Libby for who is crazy is there is a really crazy book and I'm surprised it got published, but I'm so glad it's been well received. You know, it was a proper grassroots venture that it was published by a publishing house called Own It, and it's a two 01:00:07:23 - 01:00:26:10 Ashley Hickson-Lovence person team and they took it on. And we, you know, we worked really hard to promote it and do it just did really well. You know, it did really well on a grassroots level. You know, we had to really fight for everything, you know, festival slots and reviews and stuff, etc. We had to fight really hard for 01:00:26:10 - 01:00:35:13 Ashley Hickson-Lovence it. And, you know, and we've got that for most people and yeah, for that. I'm really proud of it. And it is a proper wacky adventure. I can't stress that. I know. It's just it's chaos, I think. 01:00:37:13 - 01:00:51:20 Robin Fuller But I think that just the concepts itself, it reminds me of, I don't know if other people feel this, but every now and then, you know, kind of walking around, especially if I'm walking to work and I see familiar faces or on a bus, obviously. 01:00:51:20 - 01:01:04:19 Robin Fuller Yeah. Like if it's your commute, you see from you see the same faces of going to the gym, you see the same faces. And I think it's easy to sort of picture yourself as the protagonist in the story and everyone else is extras. 01:01:05:06 - 01:01:13:14 Robin Fuller But every now and then I have that moment of like, No, everyone's got everyone's the protagonist, everyone's got their own story. Yeah. And so that's what I was doing. 01:01:14:00 - 01:01:25:11 Ashley Hickson-Lovence But we are quite solipsistic as people and we, we always think about those around us. But sometimes it's good to just take a step back and go, actually these are oh, what's his story? What's her story like? Why she why she wearing those right. 01:01:25:12 - 01:01:37:00 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And is now in love. Yes, that she was. And so thinking about these random nuances of people's lives, I find really fascinating. And I think the Free Nine two captures that and very fleeting. It's very, quite a short book, actually. 01:01:37:00 - 01:01:55:17 Ashley Hickson-Lovence It's quite short back shorter than your show, but it's just like gives you a sense of the different yeah, you know, the different walks of life that people take and they're trying to gain a little bit more of a backstory about why they were on that bus at that particular time, on a bus that is bound for 01:01:55:17 - 01:02:07:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence something bad to happen because there is a man with a bag loitering at the front. And yeah, it was it was really fun to to put together. Like I said, in many ways I'm surprised it got published, but it's been really well received, you know, so. 01:02:08:07 - 01:02:10:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence And I'm glad it is. I'm glad it is. Yeah. 01:02:11:04 - 01:02:16:06 Robin Fuller Yeah. Nice. Well, comment, was there anything else you kind of wanted to add to talk about anything else you wanted to discuss to bring up? 01:02:17:05 - 01:02:30:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Not particularly, no. I think it's been really fun. This was really great. Just focus on the crafting of creative, tangible outputs. I think in my case the books were the 392 happen so quickly, so it was a completely different experience. 01:02:30:23 - 01:02:34:23 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So The 392 went from signing the contract to the book, being out in about six months. 01:02:34:24 - 01:02:35:11 Robin Fuller Wow. 01:02:36:12 - 01:02:49:02 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Yes. Six of limit the maximum words of your show. It was, like I said, signed the contract. Two years later the book came out and so it's two very different experiences, but both of them have had a real blast writing it. 01:02:49:02 - 01:02:54:20 Ashley Hickson-Lovence So yes, check them out and yeah, check out my future stuff. Hopefully if I get done. 01:02:55:04 - 01:02:57:08 Robin Fuller I maybe get you back on the open mic night. 01:02:57:13 - 01:03:03:03 Ashley Hickson-Lovence Oh, yeah, absolutely. You have to have the confidence to to shut up their anger. This this is for 17 year old Ashley. 01:03:04:02 - 01:03:04:19 Robin Fuller Yeah. I think it up. 01:03:05:00 - 01:03:05:23 Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. 01:03:16:18 - 01:03:31:05 Robin Fuller So thank you so much to Ashley for taking time to talk to me. I really enjoyed that conversation. As I mentioned of all the podcasts so far, I think this was the one that took me furthest away from sort of familiar ground but solicits interesting to find these areas of commonality that creative people tend to share. 01:03:32:05 - 01:03:44:14 Robin Fuller One of those is the kind of the blank canvas, the empty page. Ashley's words were just right. Just write and see what happens. And I think that holds true for a lot of a lot of creative practices. The idea of just just do something. 01:03:45:21 - 01:03:58:01 Robin Fuller It's so easy to get paralyzed by that empty page or blank canvas. And I think it's really important to just just do something, you know, when you've got an idea that you're trying to explore, but it's all in your head. 01:03:58:09 - 01:04:10:06 Robin Fuller It can be anything, but it might as well be nothing. So it's so important to just commit something, manifest something into the world, because then you can shape it and change it and maybe it becomes unrecognisable from your first draft or a sketch. 01:04:10:06 - 01:04:27:18 Robin Fuller But it's a way to get past that fear of the empty page and it's actually have something tangible and real. Yeah, it's good advice. Not always easy to follow, but good advice nonetheless. What else? Oh, social media. I don't really talk about this very much, but I'm about on social media. 01:04:28:11 - 01:04:40:02 Robin Fuller Instagram is where I'm most active. I'll put up some links on there, but it's robin photo with a scattering of underscores. Yeah. Come find me if you want more podcast updates and see little snippets and bits and pieces of my work. 01:04:41:14 - 01:04:55:01 Robin Fuller Also, as always, please like and review the podcast on whatever platform you're using, especially Apple Podcasts. I think that would be really useful to get some, some more reviews on that kind of push things a little bit. Check out your show. 01:04:55:13 - 01:05:15:18 Robin Fuller Ashley's new novel, I'm about halfway through at the moment. I'm really enjoying it. And I listen, I don't care about football even a little bit. I don't really care about its culture. I don't enjoy watching the sport, but I'm finding this book really interesting and compelling to read, so I would happily recommend it to anyone. 01:05:16:21 - 01:05:18:05 Robin Fuller And that's it. So next time.