Construction Projects on Tribal Land with Glenn Steiger and Jeff Ehret의 전체 녹취록

and gas utility industry. The first twenty five spent in New Jersey, where I was responsible for construction of distribution transmission facilities for the utility serving North Jersey. Beyond that, ⁓ spent the last thirty years running municipal electric and water utilities in California, Arizona, and Massachusetts. And within That span ⁓ been responsible for building about eight hundred and fifty megawatts of fossil generation, about a hundred and sixty megawatts, not including Navajo, of solar and about fifty-five megawatts of wind, and roughly seven hundred miles of high voltage transmission. So that kind of summarizes my construction. That is a lot of power. Jeff, what about you? Can you give us a little bit more of a background? Sure, Jerry. And and first of all, thanks for inviting me to this podcast. I've been looking forward to it. And I'm sure it'll be fun like they always have been. Anyway, my journey started. I got my degree in construction management from Arizona State fifty years ago, actually to be exact. And the first twenty-four years after graduation, I worked for the PRINE Corporation, where half that time, basically twelve years, were on domestic projects and twelve years were on international projects, where I kind of grew through the ranks there at Purini into ⁓ officer level positions in both domestic and international construction. So in two thousand I left Perini and started the Pentabuilding Group with two partners in Las Vegas with a focus on hospitality construction right there in Las Vegas. Since that time, we've grown significantly and diversified significantly, both geographically as well as different project types. And we most recently closed twenty twenty five with two point two billion in revenue. And as you mentioned, we've been in Indian country or doing tribal projects, primarily hospitality related, continuously since two thousand two. But that portfolio has also grown to where we've done other tribal projects including administration buildings, cultural museums, performing arts centers and what have you. Well, I think you both ⁓ exemplified the experience that we're gonna share today and In addition to our interest in construction projects on tribal property, I just discovered we're all about fifty years in the industry because I'm celebrating my fiftieth college reunion this summer. So I think we've grown up in the industry together. So let's get started on the topic. And how do we construct projects on tribal land? So Glenn, I'm gonna start off with you. How are construction projects on tribal lands different than what we consider a normal construction project? Well, starting at the very highest level, tribal lands generally are sovereign. So you must work within sovereign immunity. And that can be an issue with dealing with contractors. Not all contractors want to do that. So we start with that, and then we have to deal with not only federal regulations but tribal regulations, tribal regulations, codes,

different ⁓ laws and so on that only apply to that specific tribal location. So from a very high level it starts with that. Then as you get down farther into the construction itself, and we'll talk about this later I'm sure, but there's very specific rules regarding who can be hired, how they can be hired, how we finance projects that also can have some very specific issues that are only germane to tribal projects. And then the biggest piece that I found was dealing in a very, very remote area. Navajo Nation is the largest landwise reservation in the country. It's twenty six thousand square miles. It's the size of West Virginia. And as you might imagine, quite remote. And that creates many, many problems from a logistical problem, supply chain, and so on. So start with those and then we can go from there. I know that last topic you were just talking about, Glenn, we'll dig into a lot deeper on the ⁓ location and some of those things. But what about you, Jeff? What would you say are the unique challenges? for working on tribal land from a builder's perspective. Well, it first starts with an understanding, as Glenn mentioned, that tribes are their own sovereign nations. In Arizona, where we are, there's twenty two different federally recognized tribes in all shapes and sizes, right? You have the Navajo Nation, which is huge population, huge land mass, and then you go down to very small tribes with maybe a very small reservation and maybe just a few hundred members. So that alone sets up different constraints and different issues you have to deal with, as you well know being Around Phoenix, we have four tribes that have a lot of commercial development in the Phoenix area and they're blessed to that extent. And then you go elsewhere in Arizona where it's extremely rural, no one's there. So that poses, again, its own logistical constraints. As Glenn mentioned, each tribe has the right and the ability to come up with whatever building codes they want to adapt, whatever they want to do for the plan check permitting process, inspection process, you have to research because again, they have the right. And the ability to do their own thing. As Glenn mentioned, every tribe has its own justice system, its own court system. So that clearly comes into play when it comes to doing construction contracts. And as Glenn mentioned, the big issue is that since they're their own sovereign nations, tribes have sovereign immunity. So where that becomes important is when you look at a disputes resolution clause working with tribal entities, you need to read those carefully because some Tribes are resolute in not wanting to give up sovereign immunity, which means in other words, if there's a formal dispute, it would go to the tribal court and justice system. Whereas a lot of tribes understand or what they'll do is they will grant a limited waiver of sovereign immunity, which means if there's a contract dispute that's strictly, again, related to the contract, doesn't go outside the contract. that the dispute is resolved in arbitration or litigation, but outside the tribal justice system. So that's a key thing to keep in mind. And I'm sure we'll get into it. Another big issue is tarot. Tarot stands for Tribal Employment Rights Office. And tribes like the Navajos and Larden tribes that are in a remote situation, these tribes often have the unemployment rates thirty to forty percent. And so it's very common and actually with most larger tribes, actually I don't know of one that doesn't have tarot ordinances. In other words, where you have to go through and recruit and try and you look for tribal members to hire, whether you need a plumber or a laborer, electrician, whatever. And or train those individuals where there could be quotas where you have to go that process before you're allowed to bring in non-natives. So that's a definite a unique thing to track. One other one that we deal with that only pertains to our tribal project work is that the tribes are exempt from sales tax. So that adds a layer of administrative work that you have to do to prove to the tribe and also to the state typically that all your ducks are in a row in terms of First of all, making sure you didn't pay sales tax to the tribe, because typically then you'll get debt for that as a contractor, but then also to make sure you're reporting it all properly. Those are some of the key differences. You can get into the cultural and other aspects of working with tribes, but maybe we'll save that for a little bit later. One of the things I want to make sure everyone's clear on when you talk about sovereign tribal laws, that means that takes precedence over any state, federal, local law. So you have to be very clear about that, correct? Exactly. So let me flip the page here a little bit and then start with you this time, Jeff. What do you consider the key considerations that you need to do as a contractor to be successful on tribal projects versus your other projects? First and foremost, it's really getting to know the history and culture of the tribe, their background, how they've conducted business typically, and especially with the non native world, right? You want to we consider the land status is important, is the land in trust, is it free and clear in terms of No different than really doing non non-native projects, right? We then typically we look at the funding, we look at the best practices of the tribe. Obviously, we'll look at the codes they're adopting, ⁓ reviewing their permitting and inspection processes and how that goes. It's really checking the same boxes we do oftentimes on non-native projects, but a big thing is understanding their culture, understanding their history, understanding their hot buttons. make sure that whatever the project is, is it well received or is it one that say the majority of the tribe supports and wants? 'Cause you know, we've had issues where we've been on projects where they weren't all supported by all the

tribal members. And again, that sometimes caused complications when maybe some of the council members say weren't in favor of a certain project can make it a little bit difficult when you're trying to get things accomplished where they're involved with different committees or things that can slow you down. Jeff, I know from conversations with you in the past on your company is very much culture driven and the ability to create relationships and communication of trust. Do you think that's at a higher level in dealing with tribal property or how would you evaluate the importance of that? Yes, there's much more of a personal connection when we're working in Indian country or on tribal projects. So much of it you have to understand obviously the cultures are completely different. There's typically a spiritual connection to the land and everything living on the land. If you look at it this way, we've been in Arizona, let's say non-natives for three hundred and fifty years or so. The twenty-two tribes in Arizona have been there for thousands of years. So the amount of time proportionally that non-natives have been in Arizona It's just a blip compared to their time. So the connection to the land, the fact that you look at Phoenix, which is like sixty miles by sixty miles, and to think just four hundred years ago, that land was all shared by Gila River tribe, the Salt River, Pima Maricopa tribe, Akchin, and Tahano Adam. I think you really have to grasp a sense of the history and the fact that a lot of the land's very sacred to that. And you know, we just don't get it, lots of clients, non-natives. And I think that's a big Part of being successful is to really get into and understand more about their culture and more about their history. Let me extend that question to you a little bit, Glenn. What did you consider important as skill sets of the building contractors that you invited to build on your properties? Building on what Jeff said, the personal interaction is very, very, very important. You can't just have a typical business type of relationship. It's more than that. And to give you some history, my own history. I was very fortunate in that I actually lived on the reservation for a few years. So I got to understand their culture on a very, very personal basis and recognized how important things like the land is to them. That's critical. But in doing projects, the kind of projects we did, of course, were utility related, either transmission lines or primarily large solar plants. It required the personal interaction at a number of different levels. And that started with what they call the chapters. And the chapters are like small little towns, but they have a lot of power. And you have to get their approval and their buy-in before you can do a project within their chapter. Then you also, in our case, we needed large swaths of land to build solar plants, you know, a thousand acres and so on. And many of the residents of the reservation have what's known as grazing rights. They don't own the land. But they're given grazing rights so they can graze their livestock, which is very, very important to them. So have to get their permission. And that's not always the easiest thing to do. And of course, at the higher level, you have to get the approval, in our case, the Navajo Nation itself. And even for a utility that is part of The Navajo Nation, which we were, is difficult because they are very, very protective of land. So the more land that is required for a project, the more difficult it is to get their approval, their buy-in, and with all the various bureaus within the Navajo Nation, they also have to approve. So it's a three tier type of approval process. And in every single case, it requires personal interaction. It's very, very important to them. And then from a contractor standpoint, what I have found in bringing contractors in to do the projects, the more a contractor can be involved in that local community within the chapter, for example, the better the project will move along. And that is very important because the local people take a lot of interest and pride in what's going on in their local little community. So again, I come back to how important it is to have that personal interaction. Well, I think that's extremely important what you just said, Glenn. And I come from an owner's perspective as well in major US cities and not to the extent that what you have in native tribal land, but it was very important for us to understand what the community needs were as well in our project. So it must be even that much more important for what you're trying to accomplish at the tribal level. So very interesting. Early on, I think, Glenn, you talked about what we called the tarot, the Tribal Employment Rights Office. Could you talk a little bit more about that? And then we'll ask Jeff to give his opinion on that as well, the challenges that created for him as a builder. So that's critical. And to put into more basic terms, what it means is in Navajo Nation, for example, if you have a project, you have to hire Navajos. That's a given. That's a requirement. And the only reason you don't hire a Navajo, for example, me, I was not Navajo, is if you have a skill set that they don't have. So along with that, in many cases, in hiring Navajos, because as Jeff mentioned, the unemployment rate on ⁓ Navajo Nation is forty nine percent. So it's critical to hire local people and then train them. For example, the solar plants that we built, we hired for each plant between two hundred and three hundred people. And they were all local Navajos who had no skill set related to building a solar plant. So we trained them. So we did extensive training and then Once the project begins, Navajo Nation monitors it and you have to on a monthly basis report back to Navajo Nation as to what the percentage of Navajos on that project is and then justify let's say it's ninety-five percent. You know, why do you have five percent

non-Navajo? And you have to show the specific reason, the specific skill sets that are required that don't exist, for example, on Navajo Nation. So that's a fairly significant requirement. And I'm sure Jeff has probably encountered that every time and understands what that means. Okay, Jeff, what kind of challenges does that create for you as the building contract? I'd say first and foremost, it's a schedule challenge and it's a given. You can't ignore the fact that, you know, and especially on a building project, obviously you have multiple traits. You can have twenty some different traits. And first and foremost, similar to what Glenn said, you have to solicit and go out and actively find and recruit members from the tribe. And you have to demonstrate That there aren't any or none willing to do the job. Most recent example, say Tahano Autumn Nation. We've done a lot of work for them around Phoenix, but the majority of their population is way down in southeast Arizona. Again, very remote part of the state, similar to Navajo's. But again, to find the workers or the people that would come and want to do the job, you have to exhaust that process because the projects will always have a tarot officer, typically appointed by the tribe, to monitor the comings and goings and you know, whether it's the layoffs and the hirings and keep track. of the hiring on a basically a daily basis. It's definitely a reporting issue as well, as Len mentions. Certainly affects schedule. And you just gotta know that going in. And it also is an administrative process you have to deal with, which you don't have that on non-native projects typically. The other thing similar to tarot is maybe the smaller tribes don't have that issue and they don't have maybe a tarot ordinance that applies to the project, but there often are requirements to solicit either tribal business entities or just native business entities in general. And where you get I'm going to say points, but in other words, if you're proposing on projects, that's often a criteria in terms of how they make project awards. Another point that Glenn brought up earlier on was remote locations and you alluded to supply chain. A supply chain is a big deal to me. It's always has been, whether it's a domestic project, international project. But what do you consider some of the major challenges that those remote locations created for I'll start with you, Glenn, from a supply chain perspective. And then Jeff, you think about it as well from a supply chain. What does that do to your overall planning and execution? First and foremost, it separates out Contractors that either will or will not go that route. You know, there's contractors that just don't want to do that. And so it limits when we would go out for bid the number of contractors that actually would bid jobs. So we start with that. But once we have a project, then what happens is there's at least in our case, and I don't know, Jeff, how you handle it, but there's always an adder, a financial adder to the project to compensate for the remote location. So not only is it a problem In terms of bidding a job and selecting a contractor, it's a problem from a financial standpoint too, because we recognize that any project we build on the reservation is gonna have an error to it. And we just have to recognize that. It's created a problem for us in terms of bringing in specific equipment because of course as a utility we have very specific type of equipment that needs to come in and be transported. So for example, if a piece of equipment comes in from Phoenix, it might be a seven to eight hour slot up into the remotest area of Navajo Nation. So it definitely creates significant problems for us. From an execution perspective, Jeff, what did you find the challenges? I would say, Jerry, mainly 'cause we're a general contractor, right? We typically don't self perform. It's the same thing. It's finding subcontractors and getting their interest to bid the job. Typically we're just doing building work. So Glenn's involved with utility work, which is all over the terrain and everywhere you can think of, whereas we're working on a building site. Now that site could be out in the middle of nowhere. So as far as getting materials and equipment there, that's not the issue. The biggest issue is finding the subs that want to go that extra mile and, you know, work in a remote location and get their labor there and get their material and equipment there. The fewer bidders you have on the job, you're typically not gonna get as good a price as when you can get a lot of bidders on the job. You both are smart businessmen. From an owner's perspective, Glenn, and from a contractor's buildings perspective, Jeff. So how would you define success? From my perspective, any project that enhanced the quality of life on the reservation is a successful project. That's very, very important. And especially from a utility perspective, as you might imagine. As a side note, on Navajo Nation. There are still close to 14,000 families today that have no access to power at all. So part of the mission and the objective is to either physically build out over time to those folks or build projects that create revenue that can help to build out to those folks. So anything that can do that is clearly a successful project. Jeff, from a builder's perspective, how did you define success? 'Cause obviously you've been in it now for over twenty years. You've overcome some of these challenges and difficulties. So you're in it for the long term. Right. The I'd say the first way we would measure whether we did a good job or the project was successful is if we're invited back and we get repeat work, which, you know, that's how we measure it where they actively want us to work on their next project. You know, I'm happy to report that's almost invariably the case. We find that our work in Indian country with tribes, they're loyal to you if you're loyal to them and if

you're honest and transparent. Again, develop those personal connections and the relationships. But then obviously you've got to perform. No one's in love with you. They're only in love with your performance ultimately, right? So you have to perform and execute. But if you've got all those other things going, I would have to say our percentage of repeat business with the tribes we've been working with is extremely high. Almost a hundred percent. I mean, and they can't obviously you know, a lot of them they can't sole source job after job after job. There's always a proposal phase where the beauty contests you have to go through. But the more there's a subjective element where you can show your worth on the subjective side, it really bodes well in terms of getting repeat work. Well, I know the last few years there's been a huge amount of work on tribal land from the I guess was what the twenty twenty one bipartisan infrastructure law and I know that's kinda winding down this year. But even without that, there's still a large amount of work going on across ⁓ tribal land. Do you have any thoughts, Glenn, on what that volume may be going forward? So to keep guys like Jeff interested? Well, it had a fairly significant impact both on the utility infrastructure construction that we were able and continue to do, and also on the physical facilities, as you might imagine, the utility, for example. has quite a few buildings, facilities around the reservation, all in not necessarily the most modern or best condition. So that infusion of funding has gone to help build new facilities. For example, we built an entirely new headquarters building, which for the reservations probably the highest tech building on the reservation, and part of that was funded through federal funds. In the meantime, we've also started building five more district offices and again partially funded through federal funds. So it's had a major impact. And it will continue to do so. Jeff, from your perspective, I'll start this question with you, because we could probably talk about this for hours, but any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with the contracting community on what it takes to be successful in doing work on tribal grounds? Yes, where to start. Well again, don't wanna go back and re reiterate the whole idea of understanding the culture and do your homework. That's one. Don't be blindsided by unique contract or project provisions or constraints. Again, like tarot could be one. You have to be transparent, you have to be consistent. One thing also working on tribal projects, you better have a high degree of patience. Decision making is often an arduous process. Oftentimes, you know, as non-natives, sometimes we don't get it or don't understand why it is. And a big part of it is on tribal projects, major decisions typically kick up to tribal council. So tribal councils are political entities, right? Whereas on non-native projects, so you're typically dealing with people in an

administrative capacity. And there's a huge difference, as you know, whether, say, a non-native project, if there's a fickle city council member or something, that it doesn't typically come into play on non-native non native projects, but you have to understand that ultimately, usually for major decisions, especially with the smaller size tribes, it's going to tribal councils. So again, that's where the decision making process is different. And don't push too hard. Again, that's where you have to have patience. The more you push, it's not going to get anywhere for you. So that would be another word of advice I would have. And then last it's about empathy in terms of really trying to understand always where clients side of the story is and their hot buttons and their background. That's always key as well. You know, Jeff, when you say empathy, I guess that aligns with what Glenn talked about as leaving a positive and lasting impact. That's a success factor that we always don't look at in the bottom line of our revenue stream and all that. But that's I think a very positive and powerful missile you just talked about there. Glenn, may flip it over to you. Any closing thoughts? Well, I would echo what Jeff says and recognize that it is political and as Jeff mentioned, it will almost always go to the tribal council and politics can be difficult at that level. But also, as I mentioned earlier, there's an entire matrix of a community within a nation. And that matrix is important to understand as to how it interacts with each other. It's one thing to deal with the tribal council. It's a very, very different thing to deal with a small chapter. And yet they have equal power when it comes to making decisions on a reservation. So understand the culture, understand what's important. And as I learned, the priorities are Relatively simple, but incredibly important. And it really comes down to family, land, and in Navajo's condition, livestock. As long as you don't somehow negatively impact any of those, then at least you're on an equal footing. But you have to understand that and it's really important. Amazing. Very good points, gentlemen. I appreciate that. I'm a note taker. I guess I learned that in maybe grammar school or college or whatever. I broke down three or four things which I thought was very important. One, to do work on tribal ground, you need to understand that they're sovereign entities themselves. They have their own laws, and you need to comply with those codes and laws very specifically. Both of you are very clear on that. You talked about the employment opportunities where in many cases you have to use local talent to satisfy the tarot requirements, which can cause and create administrative and overall planning efforts on both parts. I thought that was very important. Glenn, you talked about remote locations and supply chain. And like I said, I'm a big supply chain guy that you need to be aware and conscious of how you're going to work around those remote locations and limitations. Very important. But the two things I really jotted out, which I thought was key, is Jeff, you talked about a collaborative approach is very valuable, how important the personal relationships are. And and I think that's important on any project, but it appears to me that that trust you build in creating these projects is very, very important. Which led to the last thing you t talked about was the empathy and leaving a positive and lasting impact. So it's more than building a project, it's more than getting a revenue. It's leaving the Indian property in a better stage and a better state post project than before project. I thought that was amazing. We need to apply that to I think every project that we do across the country. Did that make sense, those key points, gentlemen? Yep. Spot on as always. Yes, it did. I'm a good student, we have good teachers, gentlemen. So Glenn and Jeff, I appreciate you sharing your time with me today. I know we could talk about this for a lot longer. I hope this episode maybe encourages some contractors to consider work in this type of project environment. I know sharing the wisdom and experience from NAC members like yourselves is our way of trying to transform the industry to build a better nation. And that's the mission of the National Academy of Construction. I hope our audience has enjoyed this today, the listeners. I think it's a new approach. If you have any feedback on this session, you could do that by sending us an email at get the knack at naocon.org. You can also tell us what you like, dislike, other topics you might like us to hear. But during this conversation, Glenn, Jeff, just the approach you made made me think of something I thought very important in life. You're setting yourself up for success by doing all this pre-work and understanding what you need to do to support the sovereign entities and all that. It made me think of one of my favorite wisdoms. I say so much of life isn't about intelligence or luck. But it's putting yourself in a position for success. And I think that's what you talked about, Glenn. You need from the contractors. And Jeff, I think that's what you've done as a contractor for that. You've put yourself understanding the environment, the culture for success. And I think that's a very key wisdom we can share as we leave this episode today. So again, thank you, gentlemen. Looking forward to a future conversation with both of you. Thank you for tuning in to get the knack, because the construction industry needs people like you, leaders and innovators, to build our future.