What Comes After Reform? Talking Radical Imagination with Valerie Frost, Host of Community In-Site Podcast의 전체 녹취록

I'm your host, Valerie Frost. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:33.680 A lot of conversations in child welfare and human services begin with reform. 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.719 How do we make the current system less harmful? 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:38.800 How do we reduce disparities? 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.080 How do we improve policy, practice, training, accountability, and outcomes? 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:45.840 Harm reduction matters. 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:53.120 People are being harmed right now, and making existing systems less damaging can make a real difference in people's lives. 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.560 But today's guests are asking a harder question. 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:00.479 What if reform is necessary, but still not enough? 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:08.400 Today I'm joined by Samantha Mellerson and Shaka Barrows, co-executive directors of the Hayward Burns Institute. 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:18.800 The Burns Institute has spent decades working with communities and systems to address racial and ethnic disparities, reduce harm, and build towards something more just. 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:34.479 In this conversation, we talk about radical imagination, a practice of asking what becomes possible when we stop limiting the future to the institutions we already know and consider whether we are also willing to build something different. 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:40.719 I started by asking Shaka what convinced them that improving the systems we already have is not enough. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:04:03.120 We've had the privilege and opportunity of working all across the country over the last 20 plus years in jurisdictions from big cities to small, very rural, far remote jurisdictions where they have their own set of practices, all addressing racial and ethnic disparities within the administration of justice. 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:21.439 So we would build collaboratives, bring people together, study how the decisions that literally would deprive people of their liberty and have youth separated from their families and removed from their homes, how those decisions were being made and what were the racial and ethnic impacts. 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:25.120 We looked at gender, geography, and also the offenses. 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:34.000 So we would really study intimately how justice was happening at the local level, which justice really happens at the local level. 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.519 You know, most of decisions that occur really are local. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:41.439 And so bringing those stakeholders together was part of our work for so long. 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.399 The justice system is not a system, and this is probably similar in other human services. 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.120 It's a grouping of semi-autonomous agencies. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.439 And so they didn't always work together very well, they didn't always share information very well. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:05:25.360 So we would build a collaborative where everybody was looking at the same information together and actually could demonstrate a process where we could identify a target population, a particular decision point where that disparity was being exacerbated with that group, and then bring those people to the table, reach out to folks from that community, and all together start unpacking, we call it unpeeling the onion, really understanding what was behind the particular issue that we were seeing through the data that was living there. 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:47.199 And so over and over we could demonstrate through this practice of analyzing, digging deeper into it, and then coming up with interventions, partnerships with community, innovative solutions like calling people, like the dentist's office, instead of just arresting someone who doesn't show up to court with a bench warrant, why don't we call, notify? 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.319 The dentist office does that and it seems to work well for them. 00:05:50.399 --> 00:06:02.639 You know, bringing in practices that sometimes weren't even so radical, but it was just about connecting with people in meaningful ways to inform them of the of you know what can happen if they don't show up. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.240 We were able to really achieve measurable outcomes. 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:13.600 And then at the same time, the disparities in those jurisdictions not only persisted, but mostly got worse. 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:15.759 And everybody was baffled. 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:17.120 They were like, well, how is this happening? 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:18.480 We want to do something about it. 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.519 They had built a muscle, they were excited about it. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.839 People would want to pick more target populations and keep doing the work. 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.600 The analysis from our point of view is this was structural. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:42.639 They by themselves didn't have the capacity to solve this problem because this system of justice was the dumping ground for other human services that were failing people in this lot of the same zip code. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:55.279 So you had layering of human services that really were not having success over and over because we were dealing with larger issues that impacted people at a structural level. 00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.720 So for us, it was clear because it happened over and over, and we just kept analyzing it. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:05.040 No matter how much success we would have, this reality persisted. 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:08.240 And so we didn't want to just say, oh, well, it doesn't matter. 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.399 We can at least do our little practice and just stay happy with that. 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:17.600 But we had a really clear goal of transforming the very notion of justice. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.680 I want to stay there just for a bit and then we'll move on to where you all now. 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:29.120 But with

that concept of reform reaching its limit, how many times did you have to see that? 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:35.120 And you know, when you first saw and experienced it, did you try harder, try doing different things? 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:41.120 Like, was it an immediate realization after a few, or like walk us through that journey a little bit? 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:51.040 I think it's seeing it over and over and over in different ways and still seeing the importance of celebrating the small wins, like that's still real and necessary. 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:58.639 I was kind of smiling when Shaka was answering the question because I thought, wow, y'all are getting a real tame version of Shaka today. 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:06.959 Because usually he's like, Yeah, because while harm reduction is important, bam, smacks the hand on the table and is like, it's just not enough. 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.319 And I think that's where we were. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:14.480 We were doing something, we were doing it well, but we weren't making the transformational change that we wanted to see. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:20.720 We were making incremental improvements in broken systems that continued to produce status quo numbers. 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:22.399 So we we said that's enough. 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:23.519 Like we have to go beyond. 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.120 Harm reduction is important. 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:31.839 We have to reduce the harm that the current systems and structures that are around us are doing to us, right? 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:38.559 However, we also need, and this is kind of, I think, where you're taking us in the conversation is we need to blow past that. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:46.960 We need to go so much further and not limit the dreams that we have and the aspirations that we have to small short-term accomplishments. 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:49.200 We can't limit ourselves in that way. 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:55.200 Just I think it's important, because nobody thought we could do anything about racial disparities. 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:55.759 True. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.799 It almost could be taken for granted the way that I described it, like, well, yeah, we were able to do that. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:07.759 People would flat out say to us, there's nothing you'll ever be able to do about racial disparities in justice in this country. 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.240 It's as American as apple pie, right? 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:16.639 I mean, and over and over would say, people would say things to me, oh, there's nobody in the community who cares about these kids. 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:17.919 What are you talking about? 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:19.759 The community, that's why we're here. 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:29.440 Just really ignorant statements that would enrage me personally, but also, you know, fueled us because we did show that you could do something about it. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.399 And you know, we had to demonstrate that over and over. 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:38.399 So we could have easily fallen into the trap of saying, look, we can do something about it and landing on that. 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:39.279 But we didn't. 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:46.000 We stayed looking at it and said, okay, we've demonstrated what we can do, and this is not enough. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.600 We're not even coming close to seeing the outcomes that we want to see. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:10:00.000 And in fact, as the numbers shrink, the disparities get worse because the structures are set in place for these systems to do exactly what they're doing. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.960 And they were funded to do that, founded to do that. 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.039 It's in their DNA, to do racial hierarchy and social control. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:13.200 And so, saying it differently, what was the correct reform agenda for genocide of Native Americans? 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.080 Was there a reform agenda that seems appropriate now that we look back at what happened? 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:18.720 No. 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:26.000 And so, why are we accepting reform as the only option when clearly we could do better? 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.000 Sam, I feel like you you spoke Shaka up now because you're starting to turn up on. 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.279 I was gonna say about you won't be able to ask any more questions. 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:39.039 Let's get out of what we've learned now and bring a little more hope and positivity into the scene. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.480 So radical imagination. 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:41.600 So this is where we're here. 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:54.960 And I feel like when we spoke, you all said it's already like it always existed in the structural well-being framework, but that you all like intentionally pulled it out because the present political and institutional moment made the work especially urgent. 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:56.559 So let's let's hear about that. 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.799 Like, what is this radical imagination? 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.159 How was it present in structural well-being framework? 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.320 But why is it now center stage? 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:10.720 When we do talk about structural well-being and what it means to have like everything we need to thrive, right? 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:20.399 If we were to effectively dismantle structural racism and the intricate way that it impacts all of our lives from prenatal to death, right? 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:26.080 And when we look at that, if we were to effectively dismantle it, we have to replace that with something. 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.200 It's so invoven into the fabric of our culture, right? 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:42.559 And so when we talk about structural well-being, we are talking about wow, what if we could really get rid of the things that are producing all of this harm, create new systems, new structures that center

community, center our well-being. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.840 This could be the opposite of predatory capitalism, it can be the opposite of structural racism. 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:52.240 The things that we know have really led to the current outcomes that we see. 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:59.200 So we have all these debates internally, even about there's one stream of thought around breaking down the current structures, right? 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:12.720 I think we're at a uniquely a unique position in time where we're seeing at the federal level how fragile these systems and structures were because they're being broken down at record-breaking time, right? 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.039 Things that were taking us 20 years to move policies, oh, they disappear in a day now. 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:18.559 So here we are, right? 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:25.120 What we're pushing for is saying, let's stop limiting the possibilities to the current structures. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.759 The current things that we've been told are the way our society is supposed to run. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:38.000 When you go into a court, you need to have a judge on an elevated seat, the people are around, the defendant comes in shackled. 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:39.279 What if that's not it at all? 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:47.919 What if we really did look at indigenous populations, First Nations court, how they do that, how they're sitting in circle, how they're burning sage, how folks are coming in. 00:12:48.000 --> 00:13:02.080 There are things that exist that we need to either tap back into our ancestral knowledge to bring forward and or recreate and reimagine what new systems and structures need to exist in order for us to have what we need to thrive. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:17.600 So this is where the kind of the notion of radical imagination comes in for us, understanding that even in order to unlock our creativity and our best radical thinking, there's a series of things that have to exist in order for us to do that, right? 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:19.919 Integrity is important, trust is important. 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.120 You have to trust folks to be creative and to share your ideas. 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:29.279 Creativity is great, but without innovation and putting those ideas into practice, they fall short, right? 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:45.120 So there are all these things that we need to do, and we believe like going through a process to radically reimagine, engage different parts of our brain, push ourselves to think differently, is how we get to the space where we can all really bring our creative genius to the table to come up with the best solutions. 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:51.440 Sam, you're talking, and I was imagining going into a courtroom and they're like burning sage now. 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.440 Like, come join this healing circle. 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.600 But like, what is happening? 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:01.600 You know the word

judge, like the title itself is like, I'm going to be judged by someone. 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.919 Like, how do you, you're already starting here and here at this point. 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:11.840 I'm gonna push back a little bit with a little skepticism because our listeners are all over the place, right? 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.960 And not everyone is like, we need to dismantle the cord. 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:16.799 Like this is that's the structure of justice. 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:17.440 What do you mean? 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:18.480 How dare you, right? 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:27.279 So I could hear someone listening and saying, we've had systems reform, systems transformation, innovation, redesign, reimagining. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.279 Now we have radical imagination. 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:33.840 How is this not simply new language for another cycle of systems change work? 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:35.679 You know, that's uh on the table. 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:36.320 It could be. 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.840 It could be that, yeah, we're coming up with words, but they're not landing. 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.440 It's not turning into the type of outcomes that we wish to see. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:52.000 So there has to be a commitment to much more than a framework, much more than a fancy publication that lifts up a singular practice. 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.480 We're talking about new infrastructure. 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.360 I often say this to people as a little trivia question. 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.559 Why do you think the railroad tracks are the width that they are? 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.600 You can't answer me that because I've already heard you say it. 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:05.919 You gotta come up with a new one then. 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:13.120 Well, no, but you've heard me say this, but I say it because they're the width of the horse and buggies that were first used to build it. 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:23.200 So if you're if you're stuck in the same infrastructure, there's limits to what you'll ever be able to do because you have to actually go back and change the tracks themselves. 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:30.320 You'll never compete with the maglev train that is hovering on magnets because you don't have the proper infrastructure. 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:41.840 In human services, if we take a sobering look at it, we are still in a cave rubbing sticks together, trying to make a spark, doing the same practices that have been done for generations. 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:43.759 And people know it. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:44.799 People know it. 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:52.000 They've been at it, they'll tell you in meetings, we bring collaboratives together, and we talk to the people who live this. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.799 They've been doing this for 20, 30, 40 years. 00:15:54.960 --> 00:16:07.519 And they're like, I would love to be a part of something that actually can change the situation for the work that I do, but this is the best we have, so I'm pouring myself into the best option that's available. 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:15.200 For me, it's our responsibility to kind of reflect on that and think about, well, where does innovation happen in human services? 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.840 I mean, you think about that courtroom example. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.519 I held a meeting in New Jersey, collaborative meeting. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.159 We had to meet in the courtroom instead of sitting around a table in a circle. 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:32.159 The meeting was in total disarray and dysfunction just because of the structure of the room that we were in. 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:37.120 A normal meeting that we normally would have every month, same group of people. 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:45.840 Literally, it we decided to leave the room and find another place to have a meeting because it was structurally dysfunctional for us. 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.480 It didn't work for a respectable collaboration, right? 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:55.279 But yet people are losing their liberty in here all the time, constantly, right? 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.039 Huge decisions are being made. 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:58.399 So back to you, Valerie. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:16:59.759 Sorry, you know, I get excited about that. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:00.799 No, no, you're good. 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.039 I'm actually gonna interrupt very quickly. 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:09.839 And and there is an elephant in the room for me that you all have probably never thought of, but I have to do it now that I've got you on the air. 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.599 And correct me if this is not like the exact definition or distinction. 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:20.160 My interpretation is that you all have been technical assistants with the Thriving Family Safe for Children Initiative since the beginning. 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:32.960 But for me, when I look at it, now I know you all a little bit better, but I'm just kind of wondering do people actually know what the Burns Institute does outside of the technical assistance that you all do in Thriving Families within that space? 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:40.480 So can you all like plug the Burns Institute for a minute and make like really clear what you're what you're doing on a broader basis? 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:42.480 Yeah, I think it's a great question. 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:43.680 Thank you for asking it. 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:45.279 I think the answer is no. 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:51.519 Typically, people know us how they engage us, and so that can look really different depending where the entry point is. 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.359 And it's funny you say that we're technical assistance providers for thriving families. 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.680 We actually don't consider ourselves technical assistance providers for thriving families. 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:15.039 If you remember, we were actually invited to come

to one meeting and we were supposed to present our history curriculum because we believe in order to reimagine a better tomorrow, we have to have the historical competence to understand why things are the way they are. 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.519 So we came in and we just were sharing. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:28.880 Let's walk through the history of human services, child welfare, justice, you know, when it was not designed for people of color at all, when it became tipping points for people of color to enter into these systems. 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.480 And we talked this all through. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:37.759 And the overwhelming response from the participants were like, oh my gosh, we need more of this, like, come back, right? 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:43.279 And so we were invited in to continue to share some of our thinking, our frameworks. 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:53.200 We'd introduce folks to the structural well-being framework and how we got there, and really the process of our us kind of interrogating our own process and saying, how do we do even better? 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.119 Even if we're doing well, how do we do better? 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.519 What is truly the goals that we're trying to reach in our societies and how do we get there? 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:04.000 And then just being really transparent about our own process in getting there. 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:11.039 The types of technical assistance that we provided in place is usually like a real deep dive into a particular place. 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:15.680 So, you know, Shaka named a few examples of you know, the many jurisdictions we've been in. 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:30.160 I think about Ramsey County, where we were deeply invested for about five, six years of kind of walking local folks through the process and really having them decide on the issues that they're gonna tackle, what are the constructs that they need to deconstruct? 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.599 What are the new things that they need to build together? 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:35.519 And they've done some really amazing things. 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:45.759 But typically, when we're providing that type of technical assistance, what we would call our place-based work is when we're diving into a particular place and really moving with folks in the local communities. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:55.839 Because for us, it's most important that while we're there, we're gonna do our best to bring everybody along and really help foster a culture of new ways of working. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.400 But ultimately, the goal for us is that continues to thrive without us being there. 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:08.559 So it has to be local folks, community members, system stakeholders coming together in that partnership and really being able to carry this forward. 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:10.559 And we love hearing about it years later. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:11.920 Oh, wow, what are they doing now? 00:20:12.000 -->

00:20:13.440 Damn, they're doing this, that's great. 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.480 Like we love that. 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.400 We don't want it to be just us. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:20.480 We want to know that we sparked something that took off what even after we left. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.920 And that's really like for us the joy of the work. 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:30.079 And there are other things where we facilitate retreats for organizations, you know, the less sexy stuff, but still important. 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:44.640 I see us as we are um artists of difficult conversations and we are facilitators of change, sparking innovation and hoping folks can out-imagine us in the things that they want to work on. 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:45.519 I love it. 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.119 All right, so I want to go back now. 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.240 Thank you for sharing that. 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.240 Just in case anyone else was wondering, but back to radical imagination. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:21:00.400 I feel like we have really laid the groundwork on why we need it, why you all got to it, but I want to make it really concrete for the listeners. 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.799 So when Burns brings people into a radical imagination process, what are you actually asking them to do? 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.240 You know, it's a muscle that we're trying to build together. 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.519 And for us, that includes networking. 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:20.880 So part of our notion of radical imagination is building what we're unleashing and connecting, the future world building network. 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:25.119 A network of people who are taking this serious from their own vantage point. 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:31.839 They're in a similar sense that we have to do something significantly different and more advanced than what we have. 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.480 And they're practicing their own ways, right? 00:21:34.559 --> 00:22:01.920 And so part of it is building a network of practice so we can learn from each other and learn other ways that people might, you know, do this hard work of radically imagining a new human services or a new support system for communities and families, especially folk who have been at the margins facing the punishment system, the systems of social control, who, you know, have had a rough go of it, if you will, and who all these systems Maybe layering on top of. 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.599 Right now, where do you go to innovate about that? 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.440 So part of the practice is creating space. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.680 We've learned that you got to be in space with people you trust. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:24.400 As a professional, you know, in our experience, so we've done this now with almost upwards of over a thousand people across the country, various, you know, backgrounds. 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:34.720 And the number one factor is you got to have a level of trust with

each other to share your gems, to really go in and say, this is what's important to me for the future. 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.359 And you may not have it all sorted. 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:47.519 We're trying to create steps to prime people, prime the imagination, remind us that what uniquely makes us human is our ability to imagine. 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:54.079 Other animals, other species do not have the capacity to imagine the world and make it so like we do. 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.039 We've demonstrated that for millennia. 00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.279 We can do that again now. 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.119 All right, Chuck, I'm gonna jump in. 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:05.200 I'm gonna slow this down just so the listeners are following us. 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:10.799 So what I heard, and correct me, what I heard is number one are the conditions. 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.440 The conditions for for trust. 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:18.640 You talked about going into the courtroom, and it's like the conditions there automatically set us up to fail. 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:20.720 So one, you need conditions. 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.200 Two, I was wondering do we start with the problem or the desired future? 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:29.279 It sounds like you're you were leaning toward we start with the desired future. 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:40.880 I think even stepping a little further out, I think it's like if you had to break it into buckets, and we we say this a lot because we're disruptors at the PI, so we say we disrupt, dismantle, and we build, right? 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.359 And so those are kind of like three big buckets. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.720 I think the disrupt is everything from the things you're saying. 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:54.319 If the way we work is set up so that we don't actually have trust, that we can't collaborate, that we can't be our most creative, we have to disrupt that. 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.359 So oftentimes one of the very first things we do with folks is we do a conocimiento. 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.400 Tell us who you are. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:01.119 Who are you? 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.400 Like who are you really? 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.200 Not your name, your title, but who are you, right? 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:06.559 Bring that to the table. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.519 It's amazing to hear folks who've worked together for 20 years who don't know each other. 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.119 They just don't know who each other are and what you're really bringing. 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.319 Like, what is your why? 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:17.039 Why are you there? 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:18.559 Why does it matter to you? 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:20.480 And that is disrupting. 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.799 It's disrupting a current pattern of like, well, we're supposed to show up a particular way. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.000 We have to be professional. 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.079 If I say

too much about what I think or how I feel, maybe that's unprofessional. 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:37.039 All the kind of mental models that are created that we think first is just disrupting that and being open to just being your full self. 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:37.759 Who are you? 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:39.119 Who are you as a mom? 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.440 How does that play a role in what you do every day? 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:43.519 I know it plays a profound role for me. 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:45.119 I know it does for you, Valerie. 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.119 It's like we can't divorce that from who we are when we show up, right? 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:56.640 Bringing our full selves into the work and how we can establish relationships with people is really important in a work setting. 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:02.799 Shortly after the murder of George Floyd, we had a series of meetings with these organizations and agencies. 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.839 We just did a check-in. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:04.880 How are y'all feeling? 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:05.599 People broke down. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.920 They said no one had asked them how they're feeling. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.440 Nobody had asked them during that pivotal moment in society. 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:13.839 Nobody asked them, how are you doing today? 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:14.720 It matters. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:22.960 Like it matters how we're doing as people and how we end up in partnership together, how we need to support each other through that, how we can grow together. 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.039 And there will be some growth edges. 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.880 We talk a lot about normalizing debate, normalizing disagreement. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:29.599 That's okay. 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:31.279 We don't need to shy away from that. 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:36.400 The culture of politeness should never take us away from doing better together. 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.000 And I think we have to also say, and what are our limitations in that? 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.640 How do we want to handle disagreement when it comes? 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.160 But let's push each other through. 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.079 Shaka and I get asked all the time about even our shared leadership model. 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.680 Part of why we have a shared leadership as co-directors is because we were always asking system stakeholders and community members to share power. 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.359 Well, who are we to ask that if we're not truly sharing power, right? 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.440 So we created positions where we would have to share power. 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:11.279 It is a humbling experience to not be able to just make a decision by yourself and to have totally different backgrounds and approaches to the work. 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:19.119 And when we debate around a decision, it may take a little bit longer, but each of us always walk away saying, I couldn't have got there by myself. 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.319 It took that for us to really get to a better solution. 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.160 And so we're trying to also practice the things that we're asking folks to do. 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:33.519 And sometimes it can seem a little elementary, but I kind of like to remind people of the whole, this is totally gonna age me, the wax on, wax off. 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:35.599 Like you're karate kid, right? 00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:39.599 Now I just can't teach you the combination, and you're gonna go out there and whoop ass. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:41.599 Like this is wax on, wax off. 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.039 Trust me, trust the process. 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:50.960 And sometimes it's really hard to let folks just kind of trust us in that process to get there, but there's always kind of a method to the madness. 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.640 All right, so let's say we've slowing it down, and I know you're ready to go. 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.880 One, we have disrupt. 00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.519 Yes, let's go into dismantle now. 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:00.240 Yep. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.880 So if you think about it, it in part of what you're hearing is it's evolving, right? 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:14.640 This is not just fully like, oh, hey, this is exactly how we do it, but we start with getting to know each other, then getting to know the history writ large, but what's the local history too? 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.359 Because that defines where people live, that defines so much of the experience. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.119 So we have to cover that. 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:27.039 Then we get into group norms of how we're gonna engage because there's no way you do this without bumping into each other. 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:33.440 So, how do we gonna engage if we offend, if somebody gets wildly offended by your idea, like how do we handle that? 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:35.039 Because it could happen, right? 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.519 And people have very different perspectives on these things and different values, right? 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.559 And then we get into unpacking. 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.400 For us, it's important to think about like, what are your best efforts? 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:51.519 So when we're in a place, what are some of the most successful things you've seen? 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.400 Because they still fell short. 00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:01.359 I mean, I've yet to have somebody say, Well, we have something that never fell short, it completely, that's just not gonna be the case. 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:07.759 So you can take the analysis of your best effort locally, and then where did that fall short? 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.960 You were bumping into the structural limitations of your situation, right? 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:15.920 So you don't go to the effort that you're like, well, that wasn't great. 00:28:16.000 -->

00:28:21.680 You take the one that you felt the most, like, hey, this was working, uh at least to this extent. 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:23.359 And then you study that. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:30.799 And then from there, you kind of break down the structures that you're wanting to really imagine and think about so they're tangible for people. 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:32.880 Dismantling the practices. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:33.680 Mm-hmm. 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:39.039 And looking at your own mental models is a big part because we're bringing a lot. 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:44.160 I hear something that you say, and I'm thinking in my head very different, maybe than what you intended. 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:49.680 So we have different mental models that are at play, and we're talking ideas here, we're talking concepts. 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:57.279 Mental models are absolutely in the room with us because you're trying to even articulate what you have in your mind, right? 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:01.200 And so as someone listens, they're seeing something else in their mind. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:07.599 All of this is a part of this praxis of actually designing and radically imagining together. 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.160 So it's not like, well, this is I have it all sorted. 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.480 It's like, oh, I heard Sam's idea. 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:14.160 Like, well, how would that work? 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.440 You know, maybe that, maybe I want to bring that into my thinking. 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:19.759 And then we're sharing across with each other. 00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:24.319 So sharing our values for the future is essential. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:34.400 Most professionals will tell you they have had conflict, their values have been in conflict with their professional responsibilities over and over, and how painful that is. 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:39.920 And so let's unpack what are our values that motivate us to do this, right? 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:41.519 What gets you into this field? 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:42.799 What got you up in the morning? 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.680 In your mind's eye, you're seeing something greater. 00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:47.119 What is that? 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.279 Let's put a little time into that. 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:51.119 We have to hear each other. 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:57.680 So we have to take the time for people to actually be able to speak on their values and ask each other questions. 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:06.640 And then we've created some practices to kind of build from your values out into the new space of a radically designed offering. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:08.480 That's where I want to go now. 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:10.720 So we we've done all the work. 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:12.640 I've been walking with you all here. 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:22.319 We we've been getting to know each other, we're grounding, we're creating the conditions, we've disrupted a few things, we've interrogated some assumptions, we brought our values in the process. 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:30.559 How do we now transition from all of this to design and even further from design to prototype? 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:32.240 This is the work, right? 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.119 I mean, I feel like there's not enough prepping. 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:36.400 We say this all the time. 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.279 We try to shorten kind of the steps we all have to take before we dive and launch into the building. 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.359 I should also say we have a bit of a healthy debate internally. 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:51.519 Some of the greatest advocates at dismantling the current systems and structures are phenomenal at that. 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:55.119 They may not always be the right folks for building the new thing, right? 00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:02.319 And we have this debate internally all the time because I think on our best day, we hope everybody takes the full journey, right? 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:08.240 But I think also it's okay to recognize everybody still plays a role and every contribution is so important. 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:16.799 Like it's okay to acknowledge that if one person is really effective at dismantling, they may not be able to completely reimagine what the new structure should be. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:17.680 And that's okay. 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:34.079 There's also a lot of people that think they know the issue and the root cause of the issue so well that whatever they're gonna build forward is gonna automatically be so drastically different than what is because their experience has pushed them through a system that they know just didn't work for them. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:44.799 But the building and the prototesting and that all the things that we're trying to do right now, there's all this innovation sparking in small ways, and it's both small and large, and I think it's important to point that out. 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.200 We named Ramsey County as one example. 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:53.440 One of the things that I would say, you know, probably was a very heavy lift for them, but maybe smaller in terms of transformational change. 00:31:53.519 --> 00:32:04.960 I don't even know if that's fair to say that it was smaller, but they had a department that had, you know, 40 somewhat different offices, and they knew that they weren't nimble enough to be able to move resources to meet community needs. 00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:09.680 So they collapsed their offices together and ended up instead of 40, they had seven. 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:15.680 It made them way more responsive to community needs, especially where there's overlap in particular neighborhoods. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:23.279 So that's one example, right, of a system changing, morphing, rebuilding themselves in a different fashion in order to meet community needs. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.279 There are other examples that are much bigger.

00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.039 And Shaka, maybe you could share a little bit. 00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:36.160 I'm thinking about Youth Justice Reimagined, of the Department of Youth Development, major things that are standing up entities that are creating something really new. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:52.480 Yeah, we had the opportunity to work in Los Angeles and still are working there in an effort that was led by community members who 20 years ago were dealing with per capita one of the worst youth justice systems on the planet. 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.680 You're talking about huge numbers of young people abused, tortured. 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:06.480 Right now they're facing upwards of, I think, four or five billion dollars in payouts for sexual abuse for youngsters who were locked in facilities. 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.079 So very serious. 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:16.960 And the community advocated and pushed to create something that was much better than this, to get out of the punishment game altogether. 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:23.759 And mostly people thought that was just far-fetched, they would never get there, and they were relentless, they never gave up. 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:39.759 Groups like the Youth Justice Coalition, Anti-Recidivism Coalition all came together, formed the LA Youth Rise Up Coalition, and community and advocates came together with folk from the county who also were like, we've got to be able to do something better than this, right? 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:51.519 And all of that culminated into the Board of Supervisors passing a motion under pressure to form a youth justice work group, and then brought us in to lead that and facilitate that. 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:58.000 But it was a giant collaborative of over 200 stakeholders across LA County, which LA County is enormous. 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:10.079 So we all were together reimagining youth justice, but in a 10-month window, it was like, so we got, you know, and in all honesty, we did our best. 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:12.800 You know, everybody leaned into it, poured into it. 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:19.119 I mean, we've switched over from being in-person to 100% Zoom because of the pandemic. 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:32.000 And people were on it, young people were in it, and it was important to have youth at the table because they don't have the mental blocks to imagine it that some of us adults carry. 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.000 So we're imagining a new system for young people at the front end. 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:40.719 The governor of California closed the back-end youth prison system. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.400 The Department of Justice shut down of juvenile justice. 00:34:44.639 --> 00:35:07.519 So all of that issue, in terms of the young people who are locked in that facility, also fell to us to figure out how do we come up with something as a solution for this new thing that just happened because the governor didn't really give a bunch of heads ups in terms of letting folk know, how do we make sure it's aligned with this vision that we're trying to cultivate in this collaborative? 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:19.280 So we're running two collaboratives at the same time, trying to radically reimagine real offerings for LA youth that needed to be implementable in a very short period of time. 00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:30.559 So we were able to, with our relationship with Kent Mendoza, who is working with youngsters who are still locked up in those youth prisons, and they did a shadow group to the adults. 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:37.199 And when I tell you, those youngsters had some phenomenal ideas about what an alternative might look like. 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.360 What does safety mean to them? 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:41.679 How do they feel unsafe in a facility? 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.599 And when do they feel like a very deep conversation? 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:50.559 And so we've had these opportunities to like experience this in real time. 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:57.920 And what we need is much more time, Valerie, to do all of what we're talking with you about today. 00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:06.239 That's been our huge struggle for us, is really people understand it and they say, Yeah, no, we agree, this sounds right, like we should be doing this. 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:28.800 But how much time can we all commit to it and really have, you know, the opportunity to hear each other, to really flush our ideas out, to not just say, Yeah, I had this idea, but yeah, you know, that's probably not realistic, versus like, well, no, let's talk about let's talk about what would need to be in place for that vision to live in a practice. 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:30.079 New infrastructure. 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.239 Remember, I talked about those train tracks? 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:38.559 For us, structural well-being, a piece of that is actual new infrastructure, more than a program. 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.000 It's as a philosophical as much as it is practical. 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:51.840 We have to get out on the edges of what we think can happen so that our everyday is informed and motivated by where we want to go. 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:59.039 So that has been a real challenge for us, is just the time that it takes to do, and we didn't even cover all the steps. 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:00.159 I promise you. 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:05.440 Like what we just shared between Sam and I right now is just a commercial of the steps. 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:10.159 It's, you know, for me, I've been saying, I think it's more like a university versus like a workshop. 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.079 It's like years of study. 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.480 It's worth it for future generations. 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:33.119 Imagine if there was a 40 years of cultivating a new infrastructure, and right now we had it to pull from and to draw from and to lean on, that would be phenomenal for where we are in terms of everything

being torn down and all the work people are doing to push back against that. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:42.960 Can I just add, I do think it's really important to note, because time is definitely weaponized in this in a way that can prevent greatness from really being great. 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:57.679 I also think it's important to note that while creating and making time to really be like have optimistic futurism to really like unleash our potential, no one should ever confuse that with a lack of urgency. 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.159 It's why we're pushing so much now. 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:10.079 Because what we do know is as systems and structures are collapsing because we see the fragility of the current systems that we're in, there's a need to respond. 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:13.360 And there is the harm reduction, that important work of harm reduction. 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:24.960 At the same time, though, we are feverishly telling people we have got to reimagine, we have got to prototype, we have got to test these new structures, because what we do know is every opportunity has a shelf life. 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.599 And as things change, we got to be ready to go. 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:32.400 We have to come with our greatest ideas, things that we've tested, small scale that could grow large. 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:33.360 What does it look like? 00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.519 How unique does it have to be in different places? 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:46.559 But this is where we're really pushing folks to say if you're not spending a portion of your time really interrogating your own processes and coming up with a new strategy that goes way past that. 00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:51.360 We're not talking about, you know, creating an opportunity and leaving the door open for who comes behind you. 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.960 We're breaking the doors off the hinges, we're smashing the walls down. 00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:00.559 We're saying no, we're leveling this bad boy, and everyone is gonna participate in building this new thing. 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:06.239 And so we really are trying to spark the innovation in folks to know like it's just as urgent. 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:07.199 We have to see this. 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:11.840 Planning seven generations ahead is just as urgent as stopping the bleeding today. 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.400 And we all have a responsibility in that. 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.880 Yeah, that's what I heard from Shaka about the 40 years. 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:23.280 Because it's hard, we don't we don't see 40 years from now. 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:31.119 We we wake up and we see our day-to-day, but it's an investment, it's leaving something behind if we're here in 40 years or not. 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:40.639 Because if we focus on putting out fires, then that's all anyone's building that muscle for over and over and over again and practicing and repracticing and reinforcing. 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:50.800 And

you're you're almost predicting that that that's gonna still be there in 40 years because your your focus isn't anywhere else. 00:39:50.960 --> 00:40:01.199 And so I'm not hearing that we toss harm reduction out the window so that we can all just, you know, paint like Picasso and dream all of our dreams and live in La La Land. 00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:06.000 This is an investment in what could be that we don't see yet. 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.519 But 40 years ago, who saw where we are today? 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:12.960 I don't even know if five years ago I saw all this AI stuff. 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:14.719 So here we are. 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.760 So it's creating space for both and it's being intentional. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.880 But I love that you stressed that it it's urgent too. 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:22.639 There is an urgency in that. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:28.719 It's not out of sight, out of mind, it's too far away because 40 years is is a lot of time and a little bit of time. 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:29.920 Don't we know it? 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.400 Yeah, and you're talking about an ecosystem. 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.800 So, you know, a human ecosystem. 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.239 It's not like, oh, we just drop this thing in and everything will change. 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:43.920 But like if you've ever been to a car show, they have concept cars, right? 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:45.280 They're made out of clay. 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:46.480 They're not actual cars. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:51.920 You can't drive, you know, they make models to see like what a car could actually become. 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:53.679 So it's an artistry. 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:59.599 And then, sure, they can't make that exact car look like that, but they draw from that, right? 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.239 And they do the similar thing with auto racing. 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.800 They push the limits of what a vehicle can do in this space. 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:14.159 And then in their everyday practice of producing cars, they're drawing from what they've learned out at the limits. 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:18.000 And in human services, we don't have these types of vehicles right now. 00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:19.280 We have to create them. 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:27.679 We go into meetings and it's 100% about fires and how to put them out with the same tools that we've had, even though we know they cause harm. 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:32.400 And people will say, like, can we use this tool and minimize the harm? 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:33.679 And that's important. 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:35.679 And we need new tools. 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:37.119 They're both important. 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:55.039 But if you measure your time, and I anybody listening thinks who does this work, how often do you spend at the margins, at the edge of your thoughts about this, dreaming and hoping the stuff that motivates you every day should be tapped into more. 00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.079 My humble opinion, we're all seeing the same thing from just different vantage points. 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:08.559 And we're gonna, the more we share with each other, the more we realize maybe we're all talking about something that we can actually go out and make happen. 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:19.679 But if we don't share for each other, hear from each other, we don't share that, we don't have the practice, there's no reason to think we won't be doing the same thing on the same tracks a hundred years from now. 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.519 Never mind 40, you know? 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.480 Because human services has been that way. 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.840 We're running down on time, but I want to ask you all one more thing. 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:29.599 I want to turn it to you all. 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.920 So, 10 years from now, what would have to exist for you all to say, we actually did it? 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.760 We didn't just make the old system less harmful, we built something different. 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:51.280 Well, I think 10 years from now, there's gonna be so many different prototypes, tested structures, configurations, things that we're building that's new. 00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.079 I think they're just gonna be coming up all over the place. 00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:57.039 Like the stuff that we named in LA that's taken shape. 00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.360 There's things all over the world, really. 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.360 We've watched government structures and Rwanda completely change. 00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.000 Like there is so much innovation out there. 00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:14.880 I think the combination of what we're seeing and the booming of AI and what potential possibilities exist. 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:23.039 I think that there's gonna be so many, both small and large, new structures, new prototypes, new systems that are in place. 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.719 I imagine even at the federal level, things will look different in 10 years. 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:27.119 I hope so. 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:38.079 10 years is not a long time in reality, but I think the way we're seeing innovation coming right now in this whirlwind of things, I think the possibilities are huge. 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:43.119 And I think we all should really be focused and thinking about it because we're gonna get there. 00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:45.280 It's gonna be people like us that make it happen. 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.559 All of us, even folks that don't traditionally see themselves there. 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:50.159 Your ideas are needed. 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:55.840 Yeah, I mean, 10 years, like Sam said, is not that far off. 00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.960 So for me, it's it's it's a humble goal. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:07.119 Spending 15 to 20% of our times in meetings, time literally on the agenda, measurable goal. 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:20.079 Organizations that care to

achieve a balanced future in harmony with nature and where we all have, you know, some basic access to just a quality life. 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:27.679 That dreaming you can see on agendas in organizations, they're spending the time in every meeting. 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:32.079 So it's no longer we do this once a year at a retreat or maybe not at all. 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.360 Every meeting we're tracking our visioning. 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:53.440 If we can build a practice across human services, social justice, government agencies, people who take this serious, to commit to dreaming together, sharing their values and pushing their thinking at a clip of, I'm saying 30%. 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:54.400 I don't care. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.480 It's probably too much, but 30% is the goal in 10 years. 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:05.760 If we can get everybody doing that, innovation will rain down on us and transformation will be all around us. 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:09.760 But if we don't do that, we don't even shouldn't even expect it. 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:17.039 It's like if you don't exercise and you want to get in shape, yeah, you gotta be able to track some of that, right? 00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.559 We should be able to see an increase in the practice. 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.559 If we have a commitment to it, we'll see an increase in the outcomes. 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:32.000 And I think part of that, Valerie, is also like part of that time spent reimagining and really pushing yourselves. 00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:33.360 And I agree, 30%. 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:34.719 Go go all in. 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:37.519 And part of that should be not limiting yourself. 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.639 Like we need a runway. 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.400 So if you're not thinking 30, 50 years ahead, you're not working hard enough. 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:44.719 You got to push yourself beyond the 10 years. 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.320 Think 30, 50. 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:52.239 We should be thinking about what we want to leave for the next generation and the generation after that. 00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:58.559 Because I think like any good stewards of anything or any good parent, you want your child to have more than what you had. 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:02.159 We want this place to be left better than when we were here, right? 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:04.239 And I think that's the responsibility. 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:12.079 So thinking way further is really where folks need to be truly thinking about it, which should also eliminate some of the fear. 00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.559 You have time on the runway, but think about it now. 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:15.840 Don't waste time. 00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.320 Okay, can we make that 30% in 10 years like a whole call to action? 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:22.320 We have started a campaign today. 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:23.679 I'm here for it. 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:31.199 But I think uh one of the assumptions that this conversation challenges is that meaningful change and systems reform are the same thing. 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.119 And they're not necessarily the same thing. 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:42.559 Reform can matter enormously, it can reduce harm, it can change policy, it can make an institution more responsive, more equitable, and less damaging to the people who encounter it. 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:49.920 But what you all are asking us to consider is what happens when the future we want requires more than just improving what already exists. 00:46:50.159 --> 00:47:01.679 So radical imagination asks us to make room for another kind of work, to imagine, to disagree, to interrogate the assumptions we have inherited, to design, to prototype, and eventually to build. 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:06.159 And this does not mean abandoning the people doing the urgent work of reducing harm today. 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:15.679 But the question this episode will leave us with is are we only trying to make our existing systems better, or are we also creating the conditions to build something we have not seen yet? 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:19.599 So, Sam and Shaka, thank you both for joining us on this episode. 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:20.719 Thank you. 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:21.440 I love it. 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:22.320 That was awesome. 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:22.719 Thank you. 00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:24.880 That was a great summary. 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:42.880 We recognize what a privilege it is to share this time and space with you all as we consider our limitless potential to build a better future for this world. 00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:47.599 We would like to thank our listeners for your support and thank you to our team and producers. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:57.199 There is a bright future on deck, and we hope this podcast is a reminder that you all have a meaningful part and a great responsibility in building it. 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.519 It's the opportunity of a lifetime. 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:03.199 You can download Future on Deck wherever you get your podcast. 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:08.480 Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment to us about your own vision for the future. 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.159 Help us get the word out. 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:12.239 So if you're new here, come on in. 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.719 This is a space where we all belong. 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:22.639 Hey, it's Sam. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:30.400 In case you missed it, our documentary Youth Justice Reimagined, a story of community innovation and collaboration, is out now. 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:35.119 If you've been moved by the conversations on this podcast, this film really brings it all to life. 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:43.840 You'll hear directly from young people and advocates who are reimagining youth justice in Los Angeles and building the Department of Youth Development from the ground up. 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:48.719 It's powerful, it's honest, and it shows what's possible when we lead with our humanity. 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:52.159 Head to our website or check the link in the show notes to watch. 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.519 After you do, be sure to come back and tell us what's really stayed with you. 00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:56.960 It's critical to our practice.