Pharma Bro Talks A.I., Others Talk Out of Body Experiences - God's Eye View의 전체 녹취록

but that's not really, 71 00:04:50.850 --> 00:04:52.430 that's not a good way to look at life. and 72 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:55.149 to look at humanity. So anyway, so that, that phase 73 00:04:55.209 --> 00:04:58.170 is over. We'll, we'll forget that ever happened and we 74 00:04:58.209 --> 00:05:01.410 will move on to, I wouldn't jump right into the 75 00:05:01.449 --> 00:05:05.470 Martin Shkreli thing. Hold on one second. I need to 76 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:13.509 ask my, I need to ask myself something. Sorry about that. 77 00:05:14.129 --> 00:05:17.019 I think, I think the first thing we need to 78 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.980 talk about before we get into Martin Shkreli is the 79 00:05:21.019 --> 00:05:26.800 Tesla Roadster. What's going on with that? This has become 80 00:05:28.019 --> 00:05:30.779 a cultural touchstone. This is like, I was kind of 81 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:36.980 shocked by, oh my gosh, people are calling me. This 82 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:41.819 is very unprofessional, but you get what you pay for. Anyway, 83 00:05:43.750 --> 00:05:46.110 you're like required to have an opinion on this. First 84 00:05:46.129 --> 00:05:50.600 of all, it's like, why is this like such a, 85 00:05:51.490 --> 00:05:56.779 political and cultural issue you know there's like now factions 86 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.839 arrayed around do you think the tesla roadster is cool 87 00:06:01.019 --> 00:06:03.779 or do you think it's horrible and dumb and terrible 88 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:08.639 that the arguments as far as i can tell are 89 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.000 i've seen this meme online it's like imagine being a 90 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.579 liberal we're not getting political this is just i'm reporting 91 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:18.949 something i've seen One side says, imagine being a liberal 92 00:06:19.149 --> 00:06:21.310 or no, I think he says, imagine being a socialist 93 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:23.230 and trying to pretend like this isn't cool. And it 94 00:06:23.290 --> 00:06:27.029 shows the car flipping upside down. And yeah, I mean, 95 00:06:27.069 --> 00:06:30.699 that's a, that's a great argument because, because like objectively, 96 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:33.879 like it's cool. Right. And then there's another side of 97 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:37.220 the argument, which is, I don't know, like Elon sucks, 98 00:06:37.579 --> 00:06:41.779 screw him. But there is kind of like a middle ground, 99 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.040 which I think is interesting. Now, normally I wouldn't even 100 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:45.800 talk about this on the show, but it's like all 101 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:49.870 anyone is talking about. So hold on one second. I'm sorry, guys. 102 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:01.579 All right. 103 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:06.079 Sorry about that. Man. 104 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:06.300 Okay. 105 00:07:06.339 --> 00:07:09.060 This is the worst start to show ever. I'm sorry. 106 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.110 So anyway. Okay. So there I saw a post and 107 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:18.129 it show it's a company that makes drones and And 108 00:07:18.149 --> 00:07:22.230 they built a fake car around this massive like quadcopter 109 00:07:22.709 --> 00:07:24.810 kind of a thing. But they gave it like bicycle 110 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:28.379 wheels instead of real tires, right? And they show it 111 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:33.600 flying around. And they're like, see, it's not that hard. 112 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.379 You know, the roadster is not that cool. And the 113 00:07:36.459 --> 00:07:38.959 comments were filled. This kind of goes back to my 114 00:07:39.019 --> 00:07:42.230 commentary on the last episode. The comments were filled with 115 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:44.569 people who just obviously the joke went over their heads, 116 00:07:45.329 --> 00:07:47.889 you know, because they're like, that's not even a real car. 117 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:52.829 It has bicycle wheels, you know? And it was like, yeah, bro, that's, 118 00:07:53.370 --> 00:07:56.310 that's the joke. That's what they're saying. Like this is 119 00:07:56.370 --> 00:08:01.649 the point they're making, which is like this, the stunt 120 00:08:01.870 --> 00:08:04.170 by the Tesla Roadster, like this is not a real car, 121 00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:07.160 you know? And I don't know, I don't know if 122 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.180 that's true or not, but I have done, I should 123 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:13.439 back up. Like, I think this stunt caught a lot 124 00:08:13.459 --> 00:08:15.689 of people off guard. off guard because it's like whoa 125 00:08:15.910 --> 00:08:18.329 where did this crazy thing come from it is objectively 126 00:08:18.389 --> 00:08:21.120 cool you know and uh but if you have been 127 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:23.959 following the roadster saga like we've known that this was 128 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.379 coming for a long time elon's been talking about using 129 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:30.959 compressed air uh you know what's called cold gas thrusters 130 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:34.480 because when when the air is just air although it 131 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:36.690 might not be it might actually be nitrogen this is 132 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:42.129 a controversy but um when it's released it's very cold 133 00:08:42.789 --> 00:08:44.509 And that's why you see what, you know, kind of 134 00:08:44.529 --> 00:08:47.870 looks like steam. It's actually like ice crystals, like, you know, 135 00:08:47.889 --> 00:08:50.370 what comes out of a jet engine at certain altitudes 136 00:08:50.409 --> 00:08:55.490 and humidities. So, um, anyway, so yeah, these are, these 137 00:08:55.529 --> 00:08:58.470 are cold gas thrusters, which you, you know, if you've 138 00:08:58.529 --> 00:09:05.549 watched rocket, uh, rocketry, you know, rocket landings by SpaceX, um, 139 00:09:06.169 --> 00:09:12.220 you see these cold gas thrusters that shoot pressurized, um, 140 00:09:12.860 --> 00:09:18.460

atmosphere or nitrogen to, to maneuver the rocket. There's no ignition, 141 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:22.399 you know, there's no fuel. It's just air. Um, so 142 00:09:22.419 --> 00:09:25.710 we've kind of known this was coming, uh, and it 143 00:09:25.779 --> 00:09:28.570 comes on the heels of like many years of delays. 144 00:09:29.169 --> 00:09:32.570 People have sort of started mocking the roadster that calling 145 00:09:32.590 --> 00:09:36.309 it vaporware, you know, just a term that means like 146 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:39.850 it's never going to happen. And so this event, I 147 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:41.149 think a lot of, you know, the people who were 148 00:09:41.210 --> 00:09:43.669 in the know were like, see, You know, Elon's the 149 00:09:43.690 --> 00:09:46.590 man he's delivering. People had never heard of it. We're like, 150 00:09:46.629 --> 00:09:48.549 is this real? You know, is this AI? What is this? 151 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:52.580 This is crazy. And then the haters, you know, hate it, obviously. 152 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:55.200 So we've got fanboys, haters, and then most people are 153 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:59.970 just like, whoa, it's cool. But if anyone is curious. 154 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:04.220 you know, what's the reality of the situation is that 155 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:08.350 that car you saw, not only is it probably not 156 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:12.929 a real car, you know, it's probably not something you 157 00:10:12.950 --> 00:10:15.970 would ever be able to buy, even if you had 158 00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:19.149 the money, which, you know, I'm sure a few people will. 159 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.460 And the company's basically said as much like that, that, 160 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.679 that thing you saw, you know, the roadster goes in 161 00:10:25.750 --> 00:10:31.929 production allegedly in like two years, but not that, you know, 162 00:10:32.409 --> 00:10:34.490 what they will do. And here's the reason why not 163 00:10:34.529 --> 00:10:40.200 that the car is probably basically entirely a compressed air tank. 164 00:10:40.340 --> 00:10:45.519 It's called a CO it's a composite overwrapped pressurized vessel. 165 00:10:47.110 --> 00:10:51.470 And it's, you know, 10,000 to 15,000 PSI of air 166 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:52.450 or nitrogen. 167 00:10:52.470 --> 00:10:52.850 We don't know. 168 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:56.279 But, you know, air is mostly nitrogen. But it would 169 00:10:56.299 --> 00:10:59.759 take an entire Tesla battery, even the good one, to 170 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:01.759 fill that up. And it would take like eight hours 171 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.460 probably for about five seconds of thrust. And there'd be 172 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:10.389 no passenger seat. They did a little sleight of hand 173 00:11:10.409 --> 00:11:12.830 where they opened the, they opened the door so you 174 00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:14.370 can see in the car and you can, you can 175 00:11:14.409 --> 00:11:16.909 tell there's a man, you know, a fake, a dummy 176 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:20.230 sitting in the driver's seat, but you know, there's no 177 00:11:20.289 --> 00:11:23.450 back seats or passenger seat. It's just tank. It's just 178 00:11:23.529 --> 00:11:27.649 pressurized air tank. So yeah, which is, I mean, this 179 00:11:27.769 --> 00:11:29.750 is the reality of the situation. It was kind of 180 00:11:29.789 --> 00:11:36.019 a stunt, but you know, eventually perhaps in 2028, some, 181 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.159 you know, rich people might be able to buy a 182 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:41.710 version of the car that just has the the thrusters 183 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:44.590 in the back so that you can do a really 184 00:11:44.669 --> 00:11:47.289 quick acceleration. And then it has a fan that sucks 185 00:11:47.330 --> 00:11:49.669 the air down to the ground, which that's really like 186 00:11:49.710 --> 00:11:55.480 the coolest advance. There's, there's a skirt around the underbody 187 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:59.679 of the car that kind of comes down and, uh, 188 00:11:59.899 --> 00:12:01.899 gets pretty close to the ground. So it would have 189 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.340 to be like on a flat, you know, a racetrack basically. 190 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:08.470 And it pulls the, it doubles the weight of the car. 191 00:12:10.009 --> 00:12:12.159 without increasing its mass, you know, it pulls it down 192 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.159 to the ground. And, uh, you know, this is something 193 00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:17.480 like F1 cars try to do with their, their, their, 194 00:12:17.899 --> 00:12:20.360 their spoilers or fins, whatever they try to create a 195 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.159 lot of downforce so that you can corner really fast. 196 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:27.889 So this will probably be one hell of a car, man. 197 00:12:27.950 --> 00:12:30.809 It will be probably set a lot of track records 198 00:12:30.889 --> 00:12:33.509 and stuff. It may even get close to competing with 199 00:12:34.850 --> 00:12:38.299 maybe even beating like some F1 track times, but perhaps. 200 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.559 You know, it's unlikely, but you never know. But yeah, 201 00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:45.019 it is just funny to see people online. Like this 202 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.279 is going to change the world. And it's like, no, bro, 203 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:50.809 like this, this is not going to change anything. Like 204 00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:55.070 this is, this is not, first of all, you know, 205 00:12:55.250 --> 00:12:58.289 Elon was making claims in that presentation, which are aspirational, 206 00:12:58.309 --> 00:13:01.230 you know, like the company says that right now you 207 00:13:01.269 --> 00:13:04.190 have to get it filled and it takes like seven 208 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:09.129 hours and you have to use specialized equipment. and that 209 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:13.480 it's nitrogen. Um, but Elon was claiming like, yeah, that 210

00:13:13.549 --> 00:13:16.259 motor just recharges it. And maybe, maybe it will someday. 211 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:18.919 And that'd be very cool. But even if so, it's 212 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.100 probably not, it's not something that would happen while you're driving. 213 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.200 Like you'd have to plug it in overnight and, uh, 214 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:26.940 charge it up. 215 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:27.850 And yeah. 216 00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:29.889 And then you basically have a bomb in your car. 217 00:13:30.269 --> 00:13:32.289 So it's not something that would ever be allowed on 218 00:13:32.309 --> 00:13:34.610 the road, but I, but now there's political statements like 219 00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:36.370 the Florida governor is saying, Oh, we're going to make 220 00:13:36.409 --> 00:13:40.019 it street legal. It should, It's just fun. It's a 221 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.639 fun time to be alive. But people get super wrapped 222 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.840 up into stuff. I'm hearing people have arguments about the 223 00:13:47.860 --> 00:13:52.539 Tesla Roadster. It's like, bro, I guess the marketing worked. 224 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:57.490 We're all talking about it. Anyway, so curious what you 225 00:13:57.529 --> 00:14:04.409 guys think about that. You know, I will say for Elon, 226 00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:07.860 he is... he is kind of like the Barnum Bailey 227 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.360 or you can, and this, he'd probably like this comparison better, 228 00:14:10.419 --> 00:14:14.559 like the Tesla of our time, because, you know, Tesla 229 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:20.039 was known for these grand displays with electricity that just 230 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.840 captivated the imagination, got him funding. And Elon's kind of 231 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.559 that on steroids, you know, he's, he's really able to 232 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:32.179 just like capture the public imagination and government contracts. Um, 233 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.399 so yeah, Yeah. I don't know. But to turn this 234 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.980 into like a, like a, like a, what's the word 235 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:44.710 I'm looking for? Like a commentary on our time, you know, 236 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:46.210 like people are really trying to make a lot out 237 00:14:46.250 --> 00:14:49.049 of this. Like, doesn't it just say everything you need 238 00:14:49.090 --> 00:14:51.490 to know about society that there's people who look at 239 00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:56.269 this card and have criticism. It is like, okay, yeah, 240 00:14:56.389 --> 00:14:58.350 I get what you're saying, but also like, bro, it's, 241 00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:01.320 it's just a, you know, it's just a cool stunt. 242 00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:03.320 Let's just enjoy it for what it is. You know, 243 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.799 it's a, That's a fun thing. It's not a, it's 244 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:11.049 not a treatise on our democracy, you know? So anyway, 245 00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:13.950 speaking of treatises on our democracy though, let's shift gears, 246 00:15:15.889 --> 00:15:19.450 talk about Martin Shkreli, and then we will get into 247 00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:25.500 the out-of-body experience stuff. So Martin Shkreli, for those who 248 00:15:25.529 --> 00:15:30.539 don't know, he's affectionately, non-affectionately referred to as the pharma bro. 249 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.299 He was very popular for a little bit, not popular, 250 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:40.980 but notorious for a bit because he bought a company 251 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.580 or the rights to a drug and like thousand X 252 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:48.580 to the price. And people are like, Oh, this is, 253 00:15:48.659 --> 00:15:51.799 this is what's wrong. I have a slightly different take 254 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:56.850 on Martin. He's weird. You know, he's got some kind 255 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:01.029 of personality disorder. He's, you know, objectively a douche bag, 256 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:08.990 but he's just, He's just saying out loud what everyone 257 00:16:09.029 --> 00:16:12.289 else in the industry does. He's not any worse. I 258 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.679 think his transparency actually makes him a little bit better 259 00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:22.139 because I think this kind of is a commentary on 260 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:28.720 our system. He's just doing the stuff everybody does, but 261 00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:34.409 he's being transparent about it. And for that, he draws 262 00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:37.909 the ire of everyone. Everyone hates him. But it's like 263 00:16:37.929 --> 00:16:41.879 he's just doing the thing out loud. You don't get 264 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:50.659 to hate him and not hate the broader commercial medical establishment. 265 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:57.210 Not that it's all bad. There are certainly aspects of 266 00:16:57.990 --> 00:17:01.529 pharmaceuticals pharma development that I guess you could argue are 267 00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:04.450 quite good, you know, because they provide the infrastructure and 268 00:17:04.490 --> 00:17:11.690 the capital to bring these ideas to market sometimes. It 269 00:17:12.230 --> 00:17:15.880 doesn't happen that often, but anyway, he just did it 270 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:21.779 out loud. He announced his moves. He announced his crimes 271 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.089 and he went to jail. He went to jail for it. 272 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:27.819 So let's, this is a long clip. I'll probably play 273 00:17:27.859 --> 00:17:31.150 half of it. maybe 10 minutes, interrupt it. This is 274 00:17:31.190 --> 00:17:36.109 the all in podcast. It's amazing what shows get popular. 275 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:38.049 This is like one of the most popular podcasts in 276 00:17:38.089 --> 00:17:44.269 the world. It's just like three to five rich guys 277 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:50.359 trying to look like very wise, you know, constantly interrupting 278

00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.900 the guests to ask him questions. You know, there's three 279 00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:58.779 question askers and one guest and they're just constantly interrupting him. So, 280 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.470 but it's still, it's still an interesting, we get into AI, 281 00:18:02.529 --> 00:18:04.690 we get into quantum, we get into medicine. It's a 282 00:18:04.730 --> 00:18:05.640 lot of stuff we talk about. 283 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.220 So let's listen. 284 00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:09.069 He's been called the most hated man in America because 285 00:18:09.109 --> 00:18:12.029 he jacked up the cost of a life-saving drug. Raised 286 00:18:12.069 --> 00:18:15.759 the price of a life-saving drug 5,000%. 287 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.099 He became the poster child for capitalistic greed. 288 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.359 Martin Shkreli, seven years in prison. We definitely plan on 289 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:23.920 raising the price, that's for sure. You can be prosecuted 290 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.059 for not maximizing profit. And you have to do everything 291 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.099 in your power to make as much money as possible. 292 00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:31.940 And if I'm the enemy for you, good, I'm happy, man. 293 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:34.420 I'm fulfilling some need in your life. Purchase the only 294 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:37.559 copy of a legendary Wu-Tang Clan album with no immediate 295 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:40.140 plans to play it. It's not a good record. Ego 296 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:41.700 is the fountainhead of all progress. 297 00:18:42.619 --> 00:18:45.309 Please welcome Martin Shkreli. 298 00:18:49.369 --> 00:18:50.569 Welcome, Martin. 299 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:52.109 Thanks for coming out. 300 00:18:52.609 --> 00:18:55.210 This is such like a Jordan Belfort moment. You know 301 00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:56.690 in Wolf of Wall Street when he gets out of 302 00:18:56.750 --> 00:19:00.940 prison and he's like, doing his like weekend course at a, 303 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:04.549 at a Hilton, you know, lobby. And he's like, sell 304 00:19:04.589 --> 00:19:07.529 me this pen, you know? And it's just, it's the rot, the, 305 00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:10.430 the fall, the rise, the fall and the rise of these, uh, 306 00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:15.150 just twisted weirdos is so interesting. But he made a 307 00:19:15.190 --> 00:19:17.690 comment in that opening statement that I think is important 308 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:19.799 for people to remember. Like he said, you can be 309 00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:25.759 prosecuted for not maximizing shareholder value. And it is, it's true. 310 00:19:26.490 --> 00:19:28.690 So the thing, the thing that he did wrong, as 311 00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:30.359 far as I can tell, I don't know that much 312 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.019 about the story. So email me, godsideviewbook at gmail.com. Tell 313 00:19:34.059 --> 00:19:37.539 me what I'm missing, why I'm wrong. But you

know, 314 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:39.119 maybe he took it too far, perhaps. 315 00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:39.519 I don't know. 316 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:41.609 But what really the thing he did wrong is he 317 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:46.069 announced it. He broadcast it. He made a show of it. 318 00:19:47.430 --> 00:19:51.339 If he would have just 5,000% X the profit, maybe 319 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.259 it'd be wise to do it in stages, like over 320 00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.500 the course of five years, you know? Like it's not 321 00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:00.380 so much what he did objectively, it's how he did it. 322 00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:06.000 And that should like alarm you. That shouldn't make you go, oh, 323 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:09.089 I really hate this Martin Shkreli guy. It should make 324 00:20:09.109 --> 00:20:11.970 you go like, Oh, this is what everybody's doing to 325 00:20:11.990 --> 00:20:17.009 me everywhere. Like I'm being ripped off and manipulated constantly. 326 00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:21.750 Not that you just want to walk around being angry 327 00:20:21.789 --> 00:20:23.900 and miserable, but I don't know. 328 00:20:24.619 --> 00:20:24.980 I don't know. 329 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:27.480 I don't want to rehash last week. Let's just hit play. 330 00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:28.039 Nice to meet you. 331 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:30.319 You wore Brad's outfit today. Exactly. 332 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:31.259 All right. 333 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:32.619 Welcome Martin. 334 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.180 We've got so many topics to go into with you, 335 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:40.880 but I want to start with one. You've, basically taken 336 00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:43.900 down quantum computing. You said you'd think that this is 337 00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:48.220 a fraud, that people might be going to jail. So 338 00:20:48.309 --> 00:20:49.890 two-part question. 339 00:20:50.170 --> 00:20:52.710 Number one, maybe you could. 340 00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:55.329 Give us your thesis on why this is a fraud 341 00:20:55.369 --> 00:20:57.890 or fugazi, a fugizi, whatever it is. 342 00:20:59.150 --> 00:20:59.849 Disgraciad. 343 00:21:00.049 --> 00:21:00.609 And a disgraciad. 344 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:01.710 Great. 345 00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:04.309 Excellent. Excellent. Big, short reference. 346 00:21:04.369 --> 00:21:04.750 Disgraciad. 347 00:21:05.069 --> 00:21:09.160 And then two, your best advice is, for those CEOs 348 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:11.779 when they do go to jail, you've got a little experience. 349 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:17.670 Best advice in terms of, you don't seem to be 350 00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:20.309 the kind of guy who would thrive in prison, but from. 351 00:21:20.190 --> 00:21:24.210 What I understand, Martin, you basically- You're like a shock collar. 352 00:21:24.230 --> 00:21:24.549 Hold on. 353 00:21:24.809 --> 00:21:27.930 You turned into Lex Luthor and you were running the yard, 354 00:21:27.990 --> 00:21:31.190 I understand.

So, Break us through the quantum trade and 355 00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:34.000 best practices when you go to the WhoScout. 356 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:39.319 Yes, I have to shout out my wife, Chelsea. So Chelsea, 357 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:41.940 very few people know her, but she's, I think, a 358 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:43.559 big deal in technology. She was one of the first 359 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.809 people at OpenAI. And her father, believe it or not, 360 00:21:46.849 --> 00:21:49.130 was one of the first people at NVIDIA. In my family, 361 00:21:49.170 --> 00:21:50.210 I was one of the first people in prison. 362 00:21:50.630 --> 00:21:51.079 So.... 363 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:54.900 I thought I'd switch the gene pool, you know, shift 364 00:21:54.940 --> 00:21:58.809 it over a little bit. But Chelsea studied at MIT 365 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:02.589 and taught quantum computing with Scott Aronson, the preeminent guy 366 00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:06.329 in quantum. And, you know, she got to teach me 367 00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:10.099 over many hours, you know, penetrated my thick head, you know, 368 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.420 what exactly quantum computing even is. And I think a 369 00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:15.000 lot of people sort of synonymize it with faster computing, 370 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:17.140 which sounds great. That's really not what it is at all. 371 00:22:17.299 --> 00:22:17.369 No. 372 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.819 And I think the basic point of quantum computing is 373 00:22:20.859 --> 00:22:22.839 that there's one algorithm. In fact, the whole field was 374 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.000 invented because of Peter Shor's thought experiment. Peter considered this 375 00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:29.440 idea that there are kinds of algorithms that you can 376 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.369 run faster in different media. That was a revolutionary idea 377 00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:36.569 in computing. But it's not really a revolutionary idea for 378 00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:40.349 business because, and this is my thesis, of course, because 379 00:22:40.390 --> 00:22:43.869 there's one algorithm that runs faster in a quantum computer. 380 00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:46.819 And so if you ask somebody, which computer can sort 381 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.400 a deck of cards? If anybody knows the famous algorithms book, CLRS, 382 00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:53.819 the first five pages are about sorting algorithms, like bubble 383 00:22:53.859 --> 00:22:55.720 sort and merge sort and things like that. And I 384 00:22:55.789 --> 00:22:58.710 asked quantum fans, well, which one can sort it faster? 385 00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:00.309 And they said, well, of course, the quantum computer. And 386 00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:02.380 I said, of course not. That's not the case. The 387 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:05.460 modern quantum computers run at a clock speed of hundreds 388 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.660 of hertz or thousands of hertz, not at the gigahertz 389 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:11.049 that we're used to. They're single core, and they're single 390 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:13.329 threaded when it comes to doing a job like a 391 00:23:13.430 --> 00:23:15.490 merge sort or something like that. So the only thing 392 00:23:15.529 --> 00:23:17.630 it's really good at, which indeed is a magic trick, 393 00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:20.849 is going from exponential time algorithm, which is integer factorization 394 00:23:20.869 --> 00:23:23.420 or elliptic curve discrete log problem, which I want to 395 00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:26.539 mention a little later, shout out to the ECDLP problem. 396 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:29.819 The quantum computers can do those in polynomial time, which 397 00:23:29.859 --> 00:23:33.440 is remarkable. And to a nerd, that's the greatest, coolest 398 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.789 magic trick ever. But to a business person, unless you 399 00:23:36.809 --> 00:23:38.940 were in the business of factoring numbers, there's not a 400 00:23:38.970 --> 00:23:41.130 whole lot to be excited about here. So the other 401 00:23:41.210 --> 00:23:44.730 algorithms that Quantum could do are not much faster. So 402 00:23:44.750 --> 00:23:47.349 they'll never beat an NVIDIA machine. They'll never beat a 403 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:50.410 million NVIDIA machines. And Quantum doesn't have storage. There's no 404 00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:53.529 such thing as Quantum RAM. So you have to design 405 00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:56.269 a problem that has a really, really small input. You 406 00:23:56.289 --> 00:23:58.970 cannot put the world's compute into it. Every time somebody 407 00:23:58.990 --> 00:24:02.720 pitches OpenAI, from what I've heard, about quantum computer, they say, no, 408 00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:03.440 we're not interested. 409 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:08.230 I think I'm closer to you in my perspectives on quantum, 410 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:09.769 but let me take the other side. Let's just take 411 00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:11.809 the other side. The other side would say, look, we're 412 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:17.140 in this very early primordial phase of actually constructing the transistor. 413 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:19.599 And from the transistor, what we're going to do is 414 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:21.200 put a bunch of these things together. We're going to 415 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:23.519 figure out gates. We're going to figure out logic. We'll 416 00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:26.579 then be able to build some reasonable operating system on 417 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.529 top of it. We'll have some reasonable, you know, like... 418 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.500 mechanisms to write software to these things. And none of 419 00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:33.480 that really exists. 420 00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:38.119 So I recognize like, why are we even talking about 421 00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:42.579 quantum computing? It's kind of weird, but did this, although 422 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:47.000 the quantum bubble is

not nearly the size of the 423 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:50.240 AI bubble that we are economic bubble that we're currently 424 00:24:50.289 --> 00:24:53.369 living in, it is related and it is quite, quite large. 425 00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:58.900 And I think it sort of represents something. Like more 426 00:24:58.940 --> 00:25:02.119 than anything else, it's a symbol of, you know, the 427 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:07.839 potential future of AI. You know, because as we kind 428 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:13.410 of bump into sort of some real limitations with AI, 429 00:25:14.109 --> 00:25:15.410 people hear me say that and like, what are you 430 00:25:15.430 --> 00:25:17.269 talking about? It's so cool. I can ask it anything. 431 00:25:17.309 --> 00:25:18.910 I said, no, no, that's the point. I'm speaking of 432 00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:24.410 like economic limitations. Like it's incredibly expensive and these companies 433 00:25:24.450 --> 00:25:27.500 are losing a tremendous amount of money. And yes, I 434 00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:30.420 understand they're doing some creative accounting in the case of 435 00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:32.500 Anthropic to make it look like they're making a lot 436 00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:38.289 of money. They are not. And what they are making, 437 00:25:38.309 --> 00:25:42.210 the growth is now dwindling, right? So we're sort of 438 00:25:42.269 --> 00:25:47.670 at like a precipice. And even I would say we're 439 00:25:47.690 --> 00:25:51.970 also at a technological precipice. Like it's pretty cool. There 440 00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:57.720 are some big advances. They're mostly negative. for humanity, right? 441 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.440 Like they're not, they're not curing disease or eliminating jobs, 442 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:05.920 you know, they're not, uh, extending lifespan. They're learning how to, um, 443 00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:09.859 reverse engineer proprietary software, you know, so they might put 444 00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:14.299 software companies out of business, uh, and, and there'll be 445 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:16.880 massive layoffs, you know, at Adobe or, you know, wherever. 446 00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:20.970 So yeah, they're doing things, but it's not like, does 447 00:26:21.009 --> 00:26:23.849 that judge, is this the most important thing in the world? 448 00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:31.539 Is this worth our sum, you know, attention and money? 449 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:36.299 Like the fruit of our labors, does this justify it? 450 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.460 And the answer I think is no. I think obviously 451 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:45.039 it's no. But we don't want it to collapse. And 452 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:47.859 so quantum sort of represents like maybe this is the 453 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:51.599 next thing. We're always like maybe this. is what we 454 00:26:51.650 --> 00:26:56.240 need to achieve, you know, true, whatever, you know, whatever 455 00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:58.740 they think is the thing that's going to make it 456 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.960 all okay and fix everything. Let's see what Martin has. 457 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:03.809 Do you buy that? 458 00:27:04.009 --> 00:27:06.109 We're just at an early phase and this is why 459 00:27:06.130 --> 00:27:09.450 we're frustrated that there's a computational limitation except to a 460 00:27:09.490 --> 00:27:10.410 very narrow use case. 461 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:11.309 Like, do you believe. 462 00:27:11.569 --> 00:27:15.349 I shouldn't mention there. It's not that there's a computational limitation. Martin, 463 00:27:15.569 --> 00:27:18.000 he's a weirdo and he, he uses a lot of jargon, 464 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:21.579 but you know, the guy just basically just ignores what 465 00:27:21.619 --> 00:27:24.400 he says. You know, like he makes these pretty compelling 466 00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:28.109 points where like the technology itself is not suited to 467 00:27:28.190 --> 00:27:30.750 solving problems that are helpful to us, was his point. 468 00:27:31.289 --> 00:27:34.289 And there's no memory, which means that they have to 469 00:27:34.329 --> 00:27:41.299 be extremely like circumscribed. Is that the word? Circumscript? Circumscribed 470 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:47.019 problems that are, you know, well-defined problems. And it might 471 00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:50.440 be able to add some value perhaps someday, you know? 472 00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:53.509 And he's like, well, the question is like, well, yeah, 473 00:27:53.529 --> 00:27:56.650 they're compute bound, but surely we'll get better at that. 474 00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:57.930 And it's like, no, that's not what he, that isn't 475 00:27:57.950 --> 00:28:00.579 what he said, you know? He said this is like 476 00:28:00.630 --> 00:28:02.740 a core limitation to the technology. 477 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:03.720 That could be possible? 478 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:06.059 Yeah, no, of course. I think the issue, though, is 479 00:28:06.099 --> 00:28:08.240 do you buy– would you go long punch cards and 480 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:11.670 vacuum tubes, right? Mercury delay lines, core memory, these are 481 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:14.589 all things that disappeared and went bankrupt. Those were stocks 482 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:18.789 at one point. CTR, you know, computer tabulator machine, got 483 00:28:18.809 --> 00:28:19.779 incorporated into IBM. 484 00:28:19.849 --> 00:28:23.160 Okay, but your critique is– Is business model and timing 485 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:24.299 or is it technological? 486 00:28:24.500 --> 00:28:26.579 I think it's both. You know, I think that when 487 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:28.799 you talk to Google or IBM or Microsoft and ask them, 488 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:30.200 why are you spending hundreds of millions of dollars a 489 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.829 year on this? They say, well, someday there might be 490 00:28:32.869 --> 00:28:34.630 something that comes out of it. That's not a great 491 00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:35.210

business to me. 492 00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:37.009 Well, it is very shocking. I mean, you can probably 493 00:28:37.029 --> 00:28:39.430 tell the story, but how many machines actually, how many 494 00:28:39.470 --> 00:28:41.230 machines does IBM and Google actually have? 495 00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:44.390 Very few. So Google has a few prototypes. IBM has 496 00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:46.230 a little cloud. Chelsea and I have tried every single 497 00:28:46.269 --> 00:28:49.490 quantum computer in the world. We cannot multiply 300 by 498 00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:53.789 200 on any of these. And you're shorting them? Yeah, 499 00:28:53.809 --> 00:28:56.890 I've been short them. Unfortunately, we lost millions of dollars 500 00:28:57.309 --> 00:28:59.970 shorting quantum computing companies, but I told my wife that 501 00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:01.190 we gained billions in insight. 502 00:29:03.190 --> 00:29:03.369 Right. 503 00:29:04.670 --> 00:29:07.109 It's not easy to time the markets, yes. 504 00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:12.380 So where is the natural computational edge? 505 00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:14.940 I think I've said this before, but there's this famous 506 00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:19.019 scene in The Big Short with Christian Bale playing, what's 507 00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:25.529 his name? Michael Burry. Who continues to make the same 508 00:29:25.569 --> 00:29:30.059 mistake today. But he was one of the few people 509 00:29:30.099 --> 00:29:33.640 who saw way ahead of time that the market collapsed 510 00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:35.089 in 2008, 2007, 2008. He saw it way over the horizon. 511 00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:35.529 He had to go. 512 00:29:40.009 --> 00:29:44.410 Get Wall Street banks to invent financial instruments for him. 513 00:29:45.670 --> 00:29:48.339 And they sold them to him because they're like, there's 514 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.480 no way the housing market's going to fail, you know, sure. 515 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:54.519 But he was so confident that he, you know, he 516 00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:56.799 was willing to pay a lot of money for these, 517 00:29:56.940 --> 00:30:01.680 you know, options contracts or whatever they were. And he 518 00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:06.279 was way early. He was like clairvoyant, but he was 519 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.359 way early. And so all the people in his fund 520 00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:13.579 that he managed were furious with him because he's paying 521 00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:17.460 money every month betting against the U.S. housing market, which 522 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.579 of course seemed ridiculous at the time. And there's this 523 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:25.009 famous scene where the guy's in there questioning him, like 524 00:30:25.049 --> 00:30:28.390 how could he do this? And he's learning the financial 525 00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:33.640 rules entanglement that Michael Burry has created for himself and 526 00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:36.640 how much money they're all going to lose if he's wrong. 527 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:42.160 And Christian Bale, Michael Burry goes, I'm not wrong. I'm 528 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:47.809 just early. And the famous line is in response, the 529 00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:52.410 guy says, it's the same thing. And it's true. Like 530 00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:56.529 in stock market investing, like being early and being wrong 531 00:30:56.569 --> 00:31:01.200 are identical. You lost all your money either way. And 532 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:04.799 so this is kind of the point they're making with 533 00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.920 market timing. But I think he is right. Short of 534 00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.579 some major government intervention, all this stuff is going to 535 00:31:12.619 --> 00:31:18.140 just disappear overnight. And it will be mom and pop 536 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:19.779 401ks that probably pay the biggest price. 537 00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.299 Some people would say it's going to be towards encryption 538 00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:25.720 and defeating encryption because now we can actually use what 539 00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:28.809 it's actually good at to essentially brute force solutions to 540 00:31:28.829 --> 00:31:30.069 things that we can't solve today. 541 00:31:30.549 --> 00:31:32.470 I think it's crazy to even think about it because 542 00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:34.990 we have a computational problem that we're trying to solve. 543 00:31:35.490 --> 00:31:38.329 And every time somebody uses the word AI, I actually 544 00:31:38.369 --> 00:31:41.950 think of the word Matmul. These are Matmul machines. And 545 00:31:41.970 --> 00:31:43.869 I think that as we. 546 00:31:43.990 --> 00:31:45.890 Matrix multiplication is what he's referring to. 547 00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:47.750 Right. So multiplying two lists of numbers is what a 548 00:31:47.809 --> 00:31:49.349 GPU spends 99.9% of its time doing. 549 00:31:49.369 --> 00:31:49.490 Sure. 550 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.079 But it does it in n-cubed time. Now what's funny, 551 00:31:53.299 --> 00:31:56.039 I think things like complexity algorithms are going to be 552 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.069 parlance in the next five to ten years as we 553 00:32:00.609 --> 00:32:03.329 move towards a society. So n-cubed means if you want 554 00:32:03.349 --> 00:32:06.809 to multiply a thousand element square matrix versus another thousand 555 00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:08.710 element square matrix on an NVIDIA machine, it takes a 556 00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:11.890 billion operations. That's a lot of operations. As we learned 557 00:32:11.910 --> 00:32:15.880 about this computing stuff through my lovely wife, I was 558 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.720 flipping through nature, which is what we do as a hobby, 559 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:22.269 and I saw a paper from Microsoft that was called AOC, 560 00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:25.470 analog optical computing. In New York, that means something different, 561 00:32:25.589 --> 00:32:29.190 but AOC in this case is. And what I saw 562

00:32:29.210 --> 00:32:31.400 in the corner of my eye was that matte moles 563 00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.220 in light are free. They happen in instant time, which 564 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.599 is a really remarkable thing. So we're investigating, maybe we'll 565 00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:40.700 start a company or something like that, but there's a 566 00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:44.740 couple of startups like Neurofoss, OptiCore, Lumai that want to 567 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.640 make these photonic matte mole cores, which would run circles 568 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.619 around what NVIDIA does. Of course, that's not the whole story. 569 00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:54.609 There's a lot of details and non-linearity and storage. 570 00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:59.589 Beyond the hatred for quantum and your raging short that 571 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:02.089 may or may not be winning, you were a hedge 572 00:33:02.109 --> 00:33:06.319 fund manager, correct? And the famous episode, just to catch 573 00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:10.640 everybody up, was you bought a drug and then you 574 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.480 inflated the price of the drug. Is that what happened? 575 00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:16.220 Can you just give us the history and what takes 576 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:16.500 you now to. 577 00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:21.599 Yeah, I started at 16 at Jim Cramer's hedge fund. 578 00:33:22.059 --> 00:33:26.240 Cramer was actually a tremendously effective and skilled trader. But 579 00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:29.339 Cramer's idea of investing was to, you know, buy and 580 00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:32.900 sell all day, every day, everything. And he somehow squeezed 581 00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:34.630 profits out of it. That was the way you do 582 00:33:34.670 --> 00:33:35.829 it sort of in the 80s and 90s. 583 00:33:36.670 --> 00:33:39.569 For people who don't know, Jim Cramer's like the famous, 584 00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:41.849 he's got a show on CNBC and he has all 585 00:33:41.869 --> 00:33:45.259 the like sound effects and He's always yelling and screaming. 586 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:48.579 And he's always like in every movie about the stock market, 587 00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:52.269 he has like a cameo of his show. And the 588 00:33:52.309 --> 00:33:54.549 joke about Jim Cramer is that the best thing you 589 00:33:54.589 --> 00:33:58.650 can do is just bet against him. There's even funds 590 00:33:58.769 --> 00:34:01.750 called inverse Cramer funds. So like if he recommends that 591 00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:04.670 you buy a stock, the fund sells it. And if 592 00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:07.109 he recommends that you sell a stock, the fund buys it. 593 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:09.340 And it's like one of the best ways to make 594 00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.920 money is to just bet against Jim Cramer. So that's 595 00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:14.719 why he said he was actually really good at once. 596 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:17.440 And he actually made 23% a year net of fees. 597 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:19.239 And so you worked for him as a 16-year-old? 598 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:20.449 I worked for him at 16. 599 00:34:20.429 --> 00:34:21.250 How did you get that job? 600 00:34:21.710 --> 00:34:24.030 Just being in Manhattan, having a big mouth, and, you know, 601 00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:28.329 it's a great city. And loving stocks, loving investing. Bill 602 00:34:28.349 --> 00:34:31.409 Gates was my hero. And I found a way to, 603 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.219 you know, get into that. And Kramer one day pointed 604 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:35.880 at me and said, genomics, you're going to look at genomics. 605 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:38.960 And I said, okay. And it was a lot of fun. 606 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:41.119 And I went to a tiger cub. I started my 607 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:43.340 own fund. I realized I was a much better entrepreneur 608 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:45.610 and private equity guy than a trader. We found that 609 00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:49.289 the marketplace for molecules had huge amounts of alpha, whereas 610 00:34:49.309 --> 00:34:52.110 the marketplace of public companies, we could buy a drug from, 611 00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:53.949 I bought a drug from Bristol Myers for 2 million. 612 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:57.579 And that same company is public today. It's worth 6 billion. 613 00:34:58.139 --> 00:35:01.719 So that was my first startup. And, um, It was 614 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.400 a really inefficient market. Pfizer would sell you a drug 615 00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:06.179 for a million bucks that was worth a billion dollars. 616 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.559 They didn't care. Sell you the rights to the drugs. 617 00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:10.420 You could productize it, price it. Yeah, absolutely. 618 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.300 Sorry, what do you mean? You just knock on Pfizer's 619 00:35:12.340 --> 00:35:14.420 door and they're like, take what you'd like for a 620 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:15.000 million dollars. 621 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:17.099 We saw this and we built two very similar companies 622 00:35:17.179 --> 00:35:24.059 that our biggest constraint was finding people to vet these assets. 623 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:24.280 Clinically. 624 00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:31.409 Yeah, just reading papers, reading patents, going to universities and 625 00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:34.329 small drug companies and big drug companies, making relationships. It's 626 00:35:34.349 --> 00:35:37.829 called business development in our field. And our biggest bandwidth 627 00:35:37.929 --> 00:35:40.889 problem was reading these papers. So I started a small 628 00:35:40.949 --> 00:35:43.489 NLP company on the side in 2015. We had Watson. 629 00:35:43.659 --> 00:35:47.880 It was great. It wasn't great. We tried to read 630 00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:50.619 every paper that was published in medicine. It was 40 631 00:35:50.619 --> 00:35:53.619 million papers. And having humans do that is a really 632 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:54.099

tough thing. 633 00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.570 How do you take a molecule and flip it from 634 00:35:56.570 --> 00:35:58.570 25 million to six, but what are you doing in 635 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:00.199 that six or nine months that you own it? 636 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.280 I think, so what I did with sparsantan, a drug 637 00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:05.539 that I named and is now FDA approved, now a 638 00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:09.980 blockbuster drug, is Bristol discovered and developed it for hypertension, 639 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.239 which is sort of a dead, sleepy market that nobody 640 00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:13.639 really needs. 641 00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:14.760 Hypertension, high blood pressure. 642 00:36:15.489 --> 00:36:18.949 And so we moved into a disease called FSGS, which 643 00:36:19.170 --> 00:36:21.170 is a disease that never has had a drug approved 644 00:36:21.190 --> 00:36:23.130 for it. So you sort of try to angle it 645 00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:24.170 in a way that makes sense. 646 00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:27.920 And in I don't know if this is, I understand 647 00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:29.639 this is kind of off topic for a show, but 648 00:36:30.139 --> 00:36:34.340 I just think it's so interesting the way, I don't 649 00:36:34.389 --> 00:36:37.369 think people realize the way drug development works. You know, 650 00:36:37.409 --> 00:36:39.449 I think people have this image of like a room 651 00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:44.849 filled of expert physicians talking about, you know, the next 652 00:36:44.909 --> 00:36:48.150 drug or how this drug can be used or designing 653 00:36:48.210 --> 00:36:52.070 the next drug. And it's like, no, I mean, there's an, there's, 654 00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:56.559 that does happen sometimes, you know? I've been involved with, uh, 655 00:36:56.820 --> 00:37:00.880 with like, uh, a couple of different peptides and small 656 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:06.639 molecules that people have been working on, but it's, um, no, it's, it's, 657 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.610 it's about, it's about margin. You know, it's like, okay, Hey, 658 00:37:10.849 --> 00:37:14.309 I can buy the rights to this drug cheap and 659 00:37:14.329 --> 00:37:17.210 then build a team that is going to prove that 660 00:37:17.250 --> 00:37:19.469 it can be used for something else. But it's not 661 00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:22.070 like you find the drug determined as good at something else. 662 00:37:22.250 --> 00:37:22.710 You know what I mean? 663 00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:25.389 Like, so yeah, so he's been, listen to the words 664 00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:27.289 he's using. Like, yeah, so we got this drug and 665 00:37:27.329 --> 00:37:31.869 we moved into a new disease. Now, this is a, 666 00:37:32.969 --> 00:37:36.369 these are economic, this is economic vocabulary. Like when he 667 00:37:36.409 --> 00:37:41.420 says we moved into a new disease, he means a 668 00:37:41.449 --> 00:37:45.909 new market. You know, like we found this under, you know, mispriced, 669 00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:50.340 undervalued opportunity. We picked it up and we moved into 670 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:52.880 a new market. It's the way you would talk about 671 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.510 like you know, any other economic idea. And it's just, 672 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:06.909 it is like, it's wild. You know, American healthcare is insane. 673 00:38:07.769 --> 00:38:10.230 It is, I guess it's not terribly surprising that our 674 00:38:10.269 --> 00:38:14.159 life expectancy is going down even as our, you know, 675 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.760 medicine improves, but it's just, it's weird. It's a weird 676 00:38:20.860 --> 00:38:23.659 You know, I think it's probably naive to expect it 677 00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:25.900 to be any different. You know, this is just the 678 00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:26.320 way of the world. 679 00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:28.739 In that case, the drug got FDA approved. 30,000 people 680 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:32.039 who have focal segmental glomerulosclerosis never had a drug before 681 00:38:32.059 --> 00:38:33.960 now have a drug. I can be a good guy, too. 682 00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:37.880 And I think the, you know, that was, you know, 683 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:40.239 it's the art of that field. It's a great way 684 00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:41.039 to make a billion dollars. 685 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.340 Is this what Royalty Pharma does? 686 00:38:43.610 --> 00:38:43.909 Roy Vant. 687 00:38:44.789 --> 00:38:46.989 But is this also what Royalty Pharma does? They'll come in? 688 00:38:47.010 --> 00:38:49.780 Yeah, Royalty's a bit of a different player. Genius guys, obviously. 689 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.039 Their big claim to fame was they went to NYU, 690 00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:55.519 but was getting this big royalty from Remicade, and they 691 00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:57.880 bought it for like one times earnings. And then that 692 00:38:57.920 --> 00:38:58.960 royalty 20x' d. 693 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.920 They buy the cash flows at a bigger discount than 694 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:01.920 how they're being priced. 695 00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:03.099 Brad, I know you want to get in here, so 696 00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:03.500 jump in here. 697 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:07.710 Martin, take this framework now. You know kind of the 698 00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:10.909 big levers in the market today, right? What's expected in 699 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:13.550 terms of compute? What's expected in terms of this CapEx 700 00:39:13.610 --> 00:39:16.599 build out? Are you spending much time looking at that 701 00:39:16.659 --> 00:39:18.400 and do you see any boogeymen there? 702 00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:19.400 What are you worried about? 703 00:39:19.739 --> 00:39:21.530 What would you be shorting? What would you be long 704 00:39:21.570 --> 00:39:24.329 in that complex? Yeah, I mentioned photonic computing before because 705 00:39:24.369 --> 00:39:27.250 I do think in 20 years these H100s are in 706

00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:29.309 the scrap heap. B100s are in the scrap heap. B200s 707 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.900 are in the scrap heap. We're going to find ways 708 00:39:31.940 --> 00:39:33.840 to do this better. I think it's insane that we're 709 00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:35.920 thinking about space. I think it's insane we're thinking about nuclear. 710 00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:39.550 Sam Altman finally said publicly that he thinks photonic computing 711 00:39:39.869 --> 00:39:40.550 is unarrival. 712 00:39:40.570 --> 00:39:43.769 I should just mention, you know, V100, B200, these are 713 00:39:43.789 --> 00:39:45.849 GPUs used in data centers. 714 00:39:45.869 --> 00:39:46.309 Podcast. 715 00:39:47.329 --> 00:39:51.059 That photonic computing could be the future. So I'm just 716 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.559 wondering why we think this is a sane idea to 717 00:39:53.619 --> 00:39:55.440 cover the earth with computers when we can make a 718 00:39:55.460 --> 00:39:57.800 faster one. I think that that doesn't mean NVIDIA is 719 00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.889 not a long and a long semis right now. I 720 00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:04.409 think Jevin always wins in the end. Everyone Jevin's paradoxes. 721 00:40:04.690 --> 00:40:07.150 You know, I realize this isn't a finance show. So 722 00:40:07.170 --> 00:40:09.610 I'll just say, you know, long means you're invested. You know, 723 00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:10.900 you're expecting the price. 724 00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:13.179 To go up the crap out of everything. Alex Wank, 725 00:40:13.670 --> 00:40:15.869 told me Jevin's going to take care of all this. 726 00:40:15.889 --> 00:40:18.489 It'll be a million X compute improvement. There are guys 727 00:40:18.530 --> 00:40:20.989 in the Valley talking about better transformers that are a 728 00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:25.630 thousand times better. If there's a thousand times more efficient transformer, 729 00:40:25.789 --> 00:40:28.949 that's bad for NVIDIA. There's no doubt about that. So 730 00:40:28.969 --> 00:40:31.500 we're not going to have a million X demand. Now 731 00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:35.380 we might in another way, but there aren't a million 732 00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.420 X more people. Whether we have a million X more 733 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.360 compute needs, we'll have to see. For now, I think 734 00:40:40.420 --> 00:40:43.380 there's You know, my guess, like anybody else's, is long, 735 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.820 but I probably would have guessed in 2000 that Yahoo 736 00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:48.929 and Cisco were longs too. So it's a tricky place. 737 00:40:48.949 --> 00:40:50.650 So how do you manage? Do you run a hedge 738 00:40:50.690 --> 00:40:51.090 fund still? 739 00:40:51.110 --> 00:40:51.389 I don't. 740 00:40:51.510 --> 00:40:51.750 Okay. 741 00:40:52.070 --> 00:40:54.170 So you're managing your own money. And when you think 742 00:40:54.210 --> 00:40:56.949 about portfolio allocation, are you thinking about it in the 743 00:40:56.989 --> 00:40:59.090 way you did when you ran your fund? Are you 744 00:40:59.130 --> 00:41:03.460 looking for specific high alpha events or startup or disruption 745 00:41:03.820 --> 00:41:06.579 and really going long behind those and not really thinking 746 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:07.820 about competing with the market? 747 00:41:08.139 --> 00:41:11.159 Yeah, I'm sort of nimble. I mean, I think this 748 00:41:11.500 --> 00:41:13.760 Dario trade was like a great reason to go long. 749 00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:17.119 So I sort of piled in, you know, onto the sphere. 750 00:41:17.619 --> 00:41:21.010 Meaning the sell-off yesterday was sort of like just a 751 00:41:21.030 --> 00:41:21.269 head figure? 752 00:41:21.289 --> 00:41:22.489 Yeah, I think it was ridiculous, yeah. 753 00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:23.690 What did you think about his essay? 754 00:41:24.489 --> 00:41:25.449 I think that. 755 00:41:26.269 --> 00:41:31.920 A little context. So Dario is CEO of Anthropic, and 756 00:41:32.019 --> 00:41:35.420 he's doing the same thing. bullshit that everybody's doing saying 757 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.840 like we need to pause we need regulate us harder 758 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:44.250 daddy to the government you know because I mean my 759 00:41:44.289 --> 00:41:46.210 assumption is that they're trying to make it so there 760 00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:49.349 are no more competitors you know because open source competition 761 00:41:49.369 --> 00:41:52.949 will ruin them but you know the premise of his 762 00:41:53.130 --> 00:41:57.110 essay that he wrote was that basically like Claude might 763 00:41:57.150 --> 00:42:02.940 be conscious you know and so we should not We 764 00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:07.579 should pause development or whatever. And it's just the dumbest 765 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.139 thing ever. It's like, okay, go ahead, pause. But their 766 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:13.039 point is like, well, if we pause, no one else 767 00:42:13.099 --> 00:42:14.590 is going to pause and we're going to be behind. 768 00:42:14.610 --> 00:42:21.389 So the government should force us to pause, all of us. Anyway. 769 00:42:22.670 --> 00:42:25.510 I want to pay deference to him creating a trillion-dollar company, 770 00:42:25.530 --> 00:42:27.119 but I kind of hate the guy. And I think 771 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:28.840 that he– it's not easy. 772 00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:30.119 To make a trillion-dollar company. Why do you hate him? 773 00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:33.030 I think he's a fear monger. I mean, I also 774 00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:35.610 think that he, you know, imagine you and I started 775 00:42:35.630 --> 00:42:37.969 a business and I said, I'm going to show you 776 00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:40.469 Pandora's box. Here it is. And you say, wow, that's amazing. 777 00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:42.409 And he said, thanks a lot, Martin. I'm going down 778 00:42:42.429 --> 00:42:44.760 the street. I'm going to start Pandora's box too. What 779 00:42:45.070 -->

00:42:47.420 are you doing? You know, it would, I would probably 780 00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:49.719 sue you for trade secrets or something. This is exactly 781 00:42:49.739 --> 00:42:50.139 what happened. 782 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:54.820 So you're saying because he was at OpenAI and then 783 00:42:55.059 --> 00:42:59.469 he and his five or six co-founders leave, you're saying that. 784 00:42:59.869 --> 00:43:01.840 Like, Would you be, would you be friends with that guy? 785 00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:03.219 Would you like that? 786 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:05.159 Well, I mean, I think the thing with Silicon Valley 787 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.800 is that it kind of happens a lot. Um, and 788 00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:11.400 you know, it's, it's sort of hard to pinpoint what 789 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:14.369 is a patent versus what is, you know, retained knowledge. 790 00:43:15.070 --> 00:43:17.230 I'm not excusing it or I'm not saying I know 791 00:43:17.389 --> 00:43:18.250 anything that happened, but. 792 00:43:18.869 --> 00:43:20.230 Um, the way my guy went to jail for it. 793 00:43:21.409 --> 00:43:24.340 Well, I think that that was because he was found 794 00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:29.489 to have actually stolen physical documents that were, um, Okay, 795 00:43:29.510 --> 00:43:32.510 so you have an issue with sort of the origin 796 00:43:32.550 --> 00:43:33.369 story of the problem. 797 00:43:33.389 --> 00:43:36.550 The fear-mongering, the ridiculous, you know, hyperbole. Right. You know, 798 00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:38.750 he says the AI is going to help drug development. Well, 799 00:43:38.929 --> 00:43:42.679 let me ask you more. What about effective altruism? Yeah, 800 00:43:42.820 --> 00:43:43.280 even worse. 801 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.900 I remember now. This is why I wanted to play 802 00:43:45.940 --> 00:43:48.199 the clip. I could have skipped 20 minutes. I'm sorry. 803 00:43:49.699 --> 00:43:52.519 So yeah, so he barely heard it, but he slipped 804 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.760 a comment in there about how Dario and any others 805 00:43:55.889 --> 00:43:57.780 are saying like AI is going to help with the 806 00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.869 drug development. But it's totally asinine. 807 00:43:59.929 --> 00:44:00.389 No, it isn't. 808 00:44:01.130 --> 00:44:03.289 No, it isn't. It hasn't. 809 00:44:03.489 --> 00:44:03.889 It won't. 810 00:44:04.329 --> 00:44:06.909 I'm not saying you can't find a paper. Like here's 811 00:44:06.929 --> 00:44:09.750 the thing. There is a big difference between like a 812 00:44:09.889 --> 00:44:14.690 claim that you see on Instagram, like AI breakthrough cancer drug, 813 00:44:14.750 --> 00:44:18.900 you know, versus– you know, this is like, you found 814 00:44:18.940 --> 00:44:22.909 a P value, you know, something interesting popped up. This 815 00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:26.070 starts a 10 year drug discovery pipeline and it just 816 00:44:26.170 --> 00:44:28.730 never works. It never, it barely works for human when 817 00:44:28.769 --> 00:44:31.550 humans do it, you know, that's not to say there's 818 00:44:31.570 --> 00:44:35.929 not applications where AI could increase productivity or save time. 819 00:44:35.969 --> 00:44:40.889 But the idea that like genuine innovation in drug development 820 00:44:40.929 --> 00:44:44.179 is going to come from AI is pretty farfetched. Um, 821 00:44:44.630 --> 00:44:46.530 And people just have a really hard time believing that 822 00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:48.980 because it's like, well, when I ask it, it answers. 823 00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:53.440 So I can just say, chat GBT, develop a new 824 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:56.639 drug for cancer, enter, you know? And from their mind, 825 00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:58.760 it is like this vast intelligence, but of course it 826 00:44:58.820 --> 00:45:03.139 is just a statistical model. And you can't, it's difficult 827 00:45:03.179 --> 00:45:06.909 to come up with truly novel innovation from weighted parameters, 828 00:45:06.969 --> 00:45:10.809 which are based on existing information, you know? Now, some 829 00:45:10.869 --> 00:45:15.360 new ideas are just the recombination of existing information. So 830 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:19.519 it is technically possible for it to have interesting ideas, 831 00:45:19.659 --> 00:45:24.179 but you know, so far that has not manifested. Um, anyway, 832 00:45:24.219 --> 00:45:28.010 so the, the, he got kind of cut off. Someone 833 00:45:28.050 --> 00:45:32.170 else asked the question, what about effective altruism? Random subject change. 834 00:45:32.250 --> 00:45:33.929 I don't, I don't get some of these questions are 835 00:45:33.969 --> 00:45:37.050 such right turns, but if you don't know effective altruism, 836 00:45:37.309 --> 00:45:40.530 something for you to look into is this is like 837 00:45:40.590 --> 00:45:46.070 a semi-religious cult. It's really supposed to be like a 838 00:45:46.230 --> 00:45:54.659 group that is concerned about unmitigated AI development. But all 839 00:45:54.699 --> 00:45:57.539 the AI developers are in it, you know, or they were. 840 00:45:57.940 --> 00:46:01.320 It's come under scrutiny. But, you know, yeah, Sam Altman, Elon, 841 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:05.019 these guys were all involved in the early days. And 842 00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.420 it's like, you know, the best thing you could do 843 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:11.090 is just stop doing it. You know? But again, it's 844 00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:14.460 the Nazi scientist excuse. Like, well, if I if I quit, 845 00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.400 someone else will just take my place. So anyway, effective 846 00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:23.019 altruism is a very odd group with very strange. I mean, 847 00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:26.550 if you just read the beliefs, sounds good. But like 848 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:31.389 the actual. It's a whole it would take a whole episode. 849 00:46:31.849 --> 00:46:32.150 Why? 850 00:46:32.250 --> 00:46:34.869 Why is what do you find so

lonesome about this 851 00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:35.550 group of people? 852 00:46:35.590 --> 00:46:36.250 Let's unpack it. 853 00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:40.300 Yeah, so I helped popularize and I even think I 854 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:44.780 would say start the EAC movement, which was this counter insurgency. 855 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:45.780 I think that. 856 00:46:46.059 --> 00:46:47.000 Sorry, there's EA. 857 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:50.679 Yes. And then there's EAC. Which was intentionally named... EA 858 00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:52.260 is effective altruism. 859 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:53.300 EAC is? 860 00:46:53.659 --> 00:46:54.860 Effective accelerationism. 861 00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:56.340 Effective accelerationism. 862 00:46:56.380 --> 00:46:59.980 Which means? Which means? That's a great question. It does 863 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.579 mean sort of move fast and break things. And, you know, 864 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:04.820 it's no secret that Zuckerberg came out the other day 865 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.820 and said, we should move fast in AI. I think 866 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:10.760 the fear-mongering is a little ridiculous, and there'll be a 867 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:13.940 time to panic. It's just not now. Physical AI presents 868 00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:17.719 those opportunities. For now, I mean, you can turn off 869 00:47:17.739 --> 00:47:19.630 the computer. It's not that big of a deal. I 870 00:47:19.650 --> 00:47:23.070 think nerds get carried away. If you ever were a 871 00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:25.210 nerd or a jock, believe it or not, a little 872 00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:27.110 bit of both, the jocks know what to do when 873 00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:30.210 the spotlight's on them. The nerds don't, and they clam up. 874 00:47:30.289 --> 00:47:32.920 And some of them Instead of saying everything's fine, they 875 00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:34.780 want to draw attention to themselves. They want to say, well, 876 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.699 the thing I'm working on is really amazing. And the 877 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:40.719 reality is that this is just software. It's not the 878 00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:42.219 end of the world. It is the most important kind 879 00:47:42.260 --> 00:47:45.389 of software ever made, as you said earlier. But it's 880 00:47:45.449 --> 00:47:47.690 not going to kill us all. Dario also said that 881 00:47:47.730 --> 00:47:50.449 we'd be fully unemployed within one to five years, about 882 00:47:50.469 --> 00:47:53.309 two years ago. Well, he's got three years left. He 883 00:47:53.329 --> 00:47:55.030 also said that we'd cure all diseases. I don't think 884 00:47:55.050 --> 00:47:58.530 there'll be a single AI-relevant drug in the next 10 years. 885 00:47:59.809 --> 00:48:02.309 AI does not help drug discovery. If you've ever built drugs, 886 00:48:02.369 --> 00:48:04.610 and raise your hand if you've made a drug, gotten 887 00:48:04.670 --> 00:48:07.150 FDA approval for a drug. Okay, I'm pretty sure that's it.

888 00:48:08.210 --> 00:48:11.219 You know, it's pretty hard. It's pretty hard to do. 889 00:48:11.550 --> 00:48:14.070 And we've had computers for a long time. I built 890 00:48:14.090 --> 00:48:17.000 a Cray cluster to analyze drugs. Now I can use, 891 00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:20.159 you know, GPUs. It's great. But there isn't much AI 892 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.039 can help us with in drug discovery. 893 00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:24.719 What is the revenue cycle that's driving valuation? So just 894 00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:27.800 unpack it from a hedge funder. You're sitting there, you're like, well, 895 00:48:28.340 --> 00:48:31.840 you see these run rates, right? I think Jensen mentioned 896 00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:35.429 it yesterday, $ 400 billion have gone into venture that has 897 00:48:35.469 --> 00:48:38.769 been redirected into AI. So do you interpret that as 898 00:48:39.269 --> 00:48:43.369 VCs funneling LP money to buy tokens effectively? 899 00:48:43.809 --> 00:48:45.760 Yeah, I think so. And that's your argument. 900 00:48:45.989 --> 00:48:46.159 Yeah. 901 00:48:46.510 --> 00:48:47.519 And I think you're going to have one. 902 00:48:47.539 --> 00:48:49.219 There's a valuation trap in there, do you think? 903 00:48:49.780 --> 00:48:52.139 I don't think so. I think that what you mentioned earlier, productivity, 904 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:55.750 I mean, There is infinite demand for intelligence and infinite 905 00:48:55.769 --> 00:48:58.150 demand for work. When you said the workforce, I said, 906 00:48:58.170 --> 00:49:00.480 I think Brad's making a mistake here because if you 907 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:03.079 take the TAM and limit it to knowledge workers, you're 908 00:49:03.099 --> 00:49:07.739 really undercutting the TAM. For sure. Trying to be conservative. Yeah. 909 00:49:07.780 --> 00:49:10.420 There's no limit towards intelligence. One example I used to give, 910 00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:12.510 and my buddy started. 911 00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:18.389 All right. Sorry. I didn't mean to play this whole thing. Sorry. 912 00:49:18.409 --> 00:49:21.360 I guess I did not really prepare. well um i'm 913 00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:22.820 trying to. 914 00:49:22.780 --> 00:49:27.280 Close everything on my computer because it's down to like 915 00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:31.679 three percent even though it's plugged in uh we will 916 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:37.400 wrap up here quickly with this out-of-body experience thing i'm 917 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.449 curious if you guys have heard of So there's a 918 00:49:40.489 --> 00:49:41.849 new study published. 919 00:49:42.409 --> 00:49:48.860 Um, let me find my, my page here. Who wrote it? 920 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:59.400 The last thing started with an M I believe. Um, do, do, do, do, do. Um, Weiler, Weiler, 921 00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:10.289 M Weiler. It's published this year, June. Um, it is 922 00:50:10.750 --> 00:50:13.880 kind of published in a random journal, but, but it's 923 00:50:13.960 -->

00:50:15.980 a real journal, you know, it's peer reviewed and stuff. 924 00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:23.659 And they, what they did is they recruited something like 925 00:50:23.659 --> 00:50:28.289 30 people who are like claimed out of body experiencers. 926 00:50:28.949 --> 00:50:32.289 And this is just another way of describing what would 927 00:50:32.329 --> 00:50:37.309 have been called, you know, astral projection in the past. 928 00:50:39.250 --> 00:50:44.539 And so they recruited like 30 people who are apparently 929 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:56.429 experienced astral projectors or out-of-body experiencers. And they put them 930 00:50:56.489 --> 00:51:04.539 in a room with an EEG cap on. And they 931 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:10.940 had them attempt to visualize a computer screen in another room, 932 00:51:12.219 --> 00:51:17.179 no windows, you know, and, uh, report to the researchers 933 00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:19.889 what was on the screen. And it was random. There's 934 00:51:19.949 --> 00:51:25.510 random image generation. They would describe what they saw and, uh, 935 00:51:25.690 --> 00:51:29.409 an AI, you know, chat, GBT or whatever would take 936 00:51:29.449 --> 00:51:32.969 their description and render it into like a drawing and 937 00:51:32.989 --> 00:51:35.389 they would compare. and see if there was any similarity. 938 00:51:35.929 --> 00:51:38.849 And I don't know exactly how they scored things, but 939 00:51:38.949 --> 00:51:42.309 basically it was, it didn't work. So, you know, these, 940 00:51:42.769 --> 00:51:48.289 these out of body experiencers, um, were not better than 941 00:51:48.530 --> 00:51:53.550 chance at, at, uh, describing what was on the screen. 942 00:51:53.570 --> 00:51:55.719 So it's kind of a bummer. It's probably the only 943 00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.980 reason it got published. Um, which is because it said 944 00:51:59.059 --> 00:52:03.119 that didn't work. But interestingly, there were two participants who, uh, 945 00:52:04.130 --> 00:52:09.429 unprompted described in high detail scenes that they could or 946 00:52:09.510 --> 00:52:12.929 should not be aware of. Like another room in the 947 00:52:12.989 --> 00:52:15.630 lab that they were, they had, they didn't have access 948 00:52:15.650 --> 00:52:19.050 to and the orientation, like the description of where the 949 00:52:19.070 --> 00:52:21.980 people were sitting and what they were doing. And then 950 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:25.199 later they verified, they went back and looked at the time, 951 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.400 who was in what room at what time. And it 952 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.599 was correct. So there were two people that gave these 953 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:36.440 like interesting descriptions. Now it's kind of, you know, those 954 00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.260 aren't study outcomes and it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't 955 00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:42.780 formalized ahead of time. So technically you, you know, that 956 00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:45.989 you can't report that as a real finding, but it 957 00:52:46.050 --> 00:52:50.650 is interesting. I do like the interest in this kind 958 00:52:50.690 --> 00:52:53.489 of stuff that has been increasing. I just, I don't, 959 00:52:53.769 --> 00:52:56.230 I just, it does seem like if it is real 960 00:52:56.650 --> 00:52:58.409 and I'm not saying it is, but if it is real, 961 00:52:59.300 --> 00:53:01.320 it does not seem like the kind of thing that 962 00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:05.530 can really be studied. You know, because it it seems 963 00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:14.570 somewhat like obviously person dependent, but also like difficult to wield, 964 00:53:14.789 --> 00:53:18.550 I suppose. You know, like, I don't know. And also 965 00:53:18.610 --> 00:53:21.369 it could just be like stage magician stuff, you know, 966 00:53:21.409 --> 00:53:24.369 like these people could have snuck a peek in that 967 00:53:24.429 --> 00:53:26.929 room without anyone knowing, maybe, you know, because it wasn't 968 00:53:27.010 --> 00:53:29.510 formally a part of the study. Who knows? There weren't 969 00:53:29.570 --> 00:53:32.960 controls in place. So yeah, but this has prompted a 970 00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:37.300 lot of YouTube discussion and a lot of people criticizing 971 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:41.869 the study. It should have been done differently. And this guy, 972 00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:46.489 I had considered playing this video, but given how long 973 00:53:46.610 --> 00:53:53.889 we've been talking, I'm kind of questioning. But he's a 974 00:53:53.929 --> 00:54:00.639 guy with a thick accent. Anton, Anton, something, I can 975 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:07.760 pull it up. No, I don't think we'll do it. 976 00:54:07.940 --> 00:54:16.739 But basically, people are going into this big thing. It's 977 00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:21.530 sort of reinvigorated the consciousness is generated by the brain argument. 978 00:54:23.630 --> 00:54:25.889 And I would like to encourage you guys, if you 979 00:54:25.949 --> 00:54:33.070 feel like this push and pull between materialism in spirituality, religion, blah, blah, blah, 980 00:54:34.170 --> 00:54:38.159 is maybe just kind of like reframe the argument and 981 00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:42.179 think about things differently, like a little bit more dispassionately, maybe, perhaps. 982 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:50.500 And just think about like, is consciousness physical? Now, if 983 00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:53.079 you're a religious person, you're probably going to want to 984 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:56.530 say no. And if you're a more, you know, have 985 00:54:56.570 --> 00:54:59.710 more of a scientific materialist worldview, you want to say yes. 986 00:55:00.730 --> 00:55:02.650 but I think that is the wrong way to look 987 00:55:02.710 --> 00:55:06.849 at it because I don't think we know what physical means. 988 00:55:07.969 --> 00:55:10.739 You know, like when we say this, this phone that 989 00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:13.360

I'm holding is physical, like you don't really know what 990 00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:19.840 matter is, you know, and increasingly mainstream interpretations sort of 991 00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:23.480 leave us feeling like maybe matter isn't real. It, maybe 992 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:27.949 it's just information, you know? And so it's, Think about 993 00:55:27.989 --> 00:55:31.320 the strangeness of being alive, of being here in this 994 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:35.719 universe with its laws, you know, with its very well, very, 995 00:55:35.780 --> 00:55:42.059 you know, narrow laws. And, you know, we talked about 996 00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:45.719 like how the speed of light essentially is like great 997 00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:49.800 evidence for this being some sort of information bound universe, 998 00:55:49.860 --> 00:55:51.659 because that's how video games work. You know, you can 999 00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:55.559 travel one pixel per refresh rate of the monitor, you know, 1000 00:55:56.010 --> 00:56:00.739 otherwise your character's teleporting or lagging. And so when we 1001 00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:04.119 multiply our smallest distance by our smallest unit of time, 1002 00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:06.239 plank time, plank distance, we get the speed of light. 1003 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:10.280 And when you multiply a pixel size in a video 1004 00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:15.420 game by the ability of the processor to generate a 1005 00:56:15.460 --> 00:56:18.139 new frame, you get the maximum speed that you can 1006 00:56:18.179 --> 00:56:20.889 travel in the game. And so there's just a lot 1007 00:56:20.929 --> 00:56:26.699 about our universe that points to what scientists would say is, 1008 00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:30.190 you know, maybe a simulation or multiverse or whatever. But 1009 00:56:30.230 --> 00:56:32.809 what I would probably just describe as design, like it 1010 00:56:32.849 --> 00:56:38.309 feels made, you know, and people hear design and they 1011 00:56:38.329 --> 00:56:42.090 think intelligent design, they think young earth, you know, 6,000 1012 00:56:42.090 --> 00:56:46.050 year old earth, the garden, but I'm much, I'm not 1013 00:56:46.090 --> 00:56:48.340 very dogmatic about that stuff. You guys know that I 1014 00:56:48.380 --> 00:56:52.090 think by now, I mean, I oscillate, but I'm just 1015 00:56:52.130 --> 00:56:54.409 like very comfortable with the idea like, okay, well, if 1016 00:56:54.469 --> 00:57:00.929 the universe is made and I am made, why wouldn't 1017 00:57:01.030 --> 00:57:02.769 consciousness be physical? 1018 00:57:04.949 --> 00:57:05.239 Right? 1019 00:57:05.449 --> 00:57:09.360 I mean, why wouldn't consciousness be physical? Now, I personally 1020 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:12.280 do think there's a bit more to the story. And 1021 00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.059 I think that's actually quite obvious. We know very little 1022 00:57:15.139 --> 00:57:19.579 about consciousness in general. But of course, you need the 1023 00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:22.940 physical structure of the brain for consciousness to occur. But 1024 00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.460 I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think 1025 00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:30.440 that having the brain equals consciousness. I think there may 1026 00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:34.119 be some other aspect to it. And it could still 1027 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:36.579 involve physical structures. Like, you know, we talked to Mike 1028 00:57:36.619 --> 00:57:40.579 Weist about orchestrated objective reduction. And, you know, there's integrated 1029 00:57:40.619 --> 00:57:45.159 information theory. And these are physical theories, but they point 1030 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:50.579 to there being something more than just computation. And one 1031 00:57:50.619 --> 00:57:52.920 half of the argument is it's just an emergent property. 1032 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:54.280 That doesn't make a lot of sense to me at. 1033 00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:56.119 All. 1034 00:57:57.059 --> 00:58:00.059 Anyway, the point is this, you know, if we, if 1035 00:58:00.099 --> 00:58:02.469 you were to take the Bible seriously, which I do, 1036 00:58:05.050 --> 00:58:08.230 it's kind of what it describes. It describes us as 1037 00:58:08.489 --> 00:58:13.289 being made. You know, we're made from the dust and 1038 00:58:13.349 --> 00:58:17.949 to the dust we will return when we die. Now, 1039 00:58:18.150 --> 00:58:20.929 what's unique about the New Testament, about the Christian religion, 1040 00:58:20.989 --> 00:58:24.389 is that we're told, yeah, you will die, you will 1041 00:58:24.409 --> 00:58:27.760 return to the dust, and you'll just be dead. You 1042 00:58:27.820 --> 00:58:30.360 won't be in heaven. I mean, that's my interpretation. I 1043 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:33.699 know different religions have different viewpoints. I know that's a 1044 00:58:33.739 --> 00:58:37.280 very heterodox opinion, what I'm saying. But, I mean, just 1045 00:58:37.340 --> 00:58:41.889 read it. It seems to suggest that, you know, death 1046 00:58:42.030 --> 00:58:45.630 is like a deep sleep, which a deep sleep is 1047 00:58:45.670 --> 00:58:49.289 like non-existence, you know. Anyone who's had a really deep sleep, 1048 00:58:49.449 --> 00:58:53.920 you're not seeing blackness. You're just not seeing anything. You're non-existent. 1049 00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:00.079 And so death is like that. However, someday the world 1050 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:03.309 and the heavens, you know, the earth and the universe 1051 00:59:03.369 --> 00:59:06.630 will be remade and you will be given a new body. 1052 00:59:06.829 --> 00:59:09.269 You'll be recreated. It's like a spawn point in a 1053 00:59:09.269 --> 00:59:12.079 video game. Like, you you just that character ceases to 1054 00:59:12.139 --> 00:59:17.570 exist but it is regenerated from memory somewhere else and 1055 00:59:17.650 --> 00:59:20.489 that description of the universe number one is just fascinating 1056 00:59:20.829 -->

00:59:25.340 right but number two is totally consistent with everything we 1057 00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:28.530 know about consciousness. I, this is a weird pivot from 1058 00:59:28.909 --> 00:59:31.969 the rest of this episode. I was planning for it 1059 00:59:32.010 --> 00:59:34.449 to be more out of body experience and less smart 1060 00:59:34.489 --> 00:59:38.610 and Shkreli, sorry, but, uh, my computer's died. So I'm 1061 00:59:38.630 --> 00:59:43.469 just trying to wrap it up. Um, but you know, 1062 00:59:43.489 --> 00:59:45.949 you watch these videos, like I encourage you to watch this. 1063 00:59:46.090 --> 00:59:49.519 Is it Anton? What's his name? Anton. It's got Anton. 1064 00:59:49.579 --> 00:59:49.860 I think. 1065 00:59:52.099 --> 00:59:52.480 Yes. 1066 00:59:54.139 --> 01:00:01.940 Uh, Anton Petrov. Anton Petrov. I encourage you to watch 1067 01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:05.039 this study. It's interesting. I mean, the claim is that, 1068 01:00:05.179 --> 01:00:11.409 you know, of course, it's not supernatural. But I don't 1069 01:00:11.489 --> 01:00:17.210 think they are using that word correctly. Like, I don't 1070 01:00:17.230 --> 01:00:20.449 think there is such a thing as the supernatural meaning 1071 01:00:20.650 --> 01:00:26.369 different from nature, right? I think there is our created universe, 1072 01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:29.800 which is what we might call natural, but it is 1073 01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:34.300 created by something that exists outside of this universe. And 1074 01:00:34.340 --> 01:00:36.760 you could call that supernatural. I'd be comfortable with that. 1075 01:00:37.380 --> 01:00:41.469 But consciousness itself, I think it is natural. I think it, 1076 01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.440 I think you could, you know, I think it, I 1077 01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:48.940 think it would be a little reductionistic to say it's 1078 01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:54.449 generated by the brain, you know, um, But it is 1079 01:00:55.690 --> 01:00:59.150 certainly obviously related to the brain and local to the brain. 1080 01:00:59.550 --> 01:01:08.650 It's something quite intrinsic to the brain. And if matter 1081 01:01:08.730 --> 01:01:12.409 is just information, then it's all supernatural. Everything we're in 1082 01:01:13.289 --> 01:01:20.389 is supernatural. It's made. It's created. And so I think 1083 01:01:20.429 --> 01:01:24.619 the paradigm is wrong. Like we're arguing about like nature 1084 01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:30.159 versus or like religion versus science, supernatural versus natural. I 1085 01:01:30.179 --> 01:01:33.219 just think this is incorrect. I mean, you, you can 1086 01:01:33.300 --> 01:01:36.239 imagine just making your video game, right? Designing your video 1087 01:01:36.260 --> 01:01:42.750 game and watching your, your, say you create conscious agents 1088 01:01:42.869 --> 01:01:45.949 in the game, little characters, and you can imagine them 1089 01:01:45.989 --> 01:01:50.070 spending thousands of years arguing about

these deep questions, you know, like, 1090 01:01:51.269 --> 01:01:56.190 Am I conscious? Am I not? You know, what is consciousness? Well, I, 1091 01:01:56.389 --> 01:01:58.409 you know, I think it's just a function of the brain, 1092 01:01:58.510 --> 01:02:01.920 which evolved over time. And the other guy's like, no, 1093 01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:05.199 I think it came from our creator. And it could 1094 01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:08.920 just be that they're both correct. You know, because if, 1095 01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:13.619 if we made them, then it did come from the creator. 1096 01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:16.199 But if we made the rules of the game and 1097 01:02:16.219 --> 01:02:18.869 we made the information set and the rule set such that, 1098 01:02:19.170 --> 01:02:23.699 that consciousness would emerge over time, then they're both right, 1099 01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:27.940 you know? But I think they would both be shocked 1100 01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:31.099 at the end if they found out how it really works, right? 1101 01:02:31.940 --> 01:02:36.719 So anyway, I don't know if that's useful or interesting 1102 01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:40.449 or important, but just some thoughts I wanted to get 1103 01:02:40.530 --> 01:02:43.230 out there. What do you guys think about Martin Shkreli? 1104 01:02:45.469 --> 01:02:47.590 I don't ever want to agree with him on anything, 1105 01:02:47.610 --> 01:02:48.989 but I do kind of agree with him on this 1106 01:02:49.070 --> 01:02:58.039 AI stuff. The desperate human need for companionship, for hope, 1107 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:02.940 for promise, this void we have, this hole in us 1108 01:03:02.980 --> 01:03:07.559 that we have, it so badly wants our AI friend 1109 01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:12.420 to come along and be there for us and cure 1110 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:18.360 our cancer and usher in the golden age. But that's just, 1111 01:03:19.699 --> 01:03:24.139 that's magical thinking. That's religious thinking more than anything I've 1112 01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:26.940 done on this show. So anyway, I'm curious what you 1113 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:30.099 guys think. Send me an email at godsideviewbook at gmail.com. 1114 01:03:30.139 --> 01:03:33.719 Thank you to my core 200. I'll try to do 1115 01:03:33.739 --> 01:03:36.590 a better job with our programming on the next show. 1116 01:03:36.610 --> 01:03:39.269 We'll try to find some shorter, more interesting clips. But 1117 01:03:39.769 --> 01:03:42.710 until then, I hope everyone's having a good Sunday. Stay 1118 01:03:42.789 --> 01:03:44.929 safe out there. And God bless. 1119 01:03:48.760 --> 01:04:08.389 Hurry in today during the Ram Big Finish. Available in 1120 01:04:08.409 --> 01:04:11.389 the purchase of select new 2026 Ram models. $ 200 administration 1121 01:04:11.409 --> 01:04:14.090 fee required. Not compatible with some offers. Contact dealer for details. 1122 01:04:14.110 --> 01:04:17.599 Take retail delivery by 1-427. Ram and Hemi are registered trademarks. 1123 01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:18.320 Of FCA US LLC. 1124 01:04:18.579 --> 01:04:21.900 Game's on a break? Don't doom scroll. Try Rips on Underdog. 1125 01:04:22.179 --> 01:04:24.679 Buy a digital pack, rip it open, and reveal a 1126 01:04:24.780 --> 01:04:28.670 real physical card. Football, basketball, even Pokemon. Packs start at 1127 01:04:28.690 --> 01:04:31.610 just $ 5. Ship it straight to your door or sell 1128 01:04:31.650 --> 01:04:33.530 it back instantly at full market value. 1129 01:04:33.849 --> 01:04:34.389 Hi, everybody. 1130 01:04:34.489 --> 01:04:37.210 It's me, Cinderella X. You are listening to the Fringe 1131 01:04:37.230 --> 01:04:38.909 Radio Network. I know I was going to tell them. 1132 01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:05.840 Hey, do you have the app? It's the best way 1133 01:05:05.900 --> 01:05:07.699 to listen to the Fringe Radio Network. 1134 01:05:08.219 --> 01:05:10.820 It's safe, and you don't have to log in to 1135 01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:13.920 use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you, 1136 01:05:13.940 --> 01:05:15.739 and it sounds beautiful. 1137 01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:19.079 I know, I was going to tell him. How do 1138 01:05:19.099 --> 01:05:24.030 you get the app? Just go to FringeRadioNetwork.com, right at 1139 01:05:24.070 --> 01:05:27.590 the top of the page. I know, Slippers, we've got 1140 01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:29.050 to keep cleaning these chimneys.