10. A Systems Theory Expert on the Anxiety Running Your Team ft. Steve Cuss의 전체 녹취록

to church when I was a teenager. 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.840 I was invited to youth group by my older sister. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.959 So she had become a Christian a couple of years beforehand. 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:21.360 We come from a really secular family. 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:29.120 Um, several years ago, my sister, I was not there, but she went to one of those family reunions, kind of those one of the once-in-a-lifetime ones. 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:30.879 There were 160 people at this thing. 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:31.519 Oh my gosh. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:31.680 Yeah. 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:33.519 All cusses, cusses and popes. 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:34.639 Cusses and popes. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:35.920 That's an interesting combination. 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:36.639 It really is. 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:37.360 Yeah. 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:39.920 And uh, she was the only believer in the room. 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:40.800 No, yeah. 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.600 So we come from a like a really secular heritage. 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:44.000 Uh huh. 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:50.480 Um, there's a lot of fun to be had because on my mother's side, it was a convict, a mule thief that got us started. 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:50.879 Yes. 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:51.920 Which we're very proud of. 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:53.040 Yeah, oh, totally. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.800 I mean, that's kind of the story of Australia. 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:57.279 Yeah, people make fun of Aussies for having convict. 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.040 We for us it's a point of pride. 00:04:59.199 --> 00:04:59.680 Yes. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.720 Uh, but yeah, very secular heritage. 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:11.040 I I would say um I I was my parents love me, but I think my first experience with unconditional love was in a local church. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:18.720 Uh so I was 14, went to a youth group, and I I couldn't say it then, but my soul relaxed. 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:20.879 Like I I felt at ease. 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.240 I didn't I think in home I was always in a protective state. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:30.879 Uh lots of anger in the house, and I've got a sensitive system for whatever reason I I feel really deeply. 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:31.279 Yeah. 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:38.720 So home was scary, and uh school you you were telling me as we were talking ahead of time that you've been thinking, you always think a lot about anxiety. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:39.920 We'll get into that a lot more. 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.560 It's a massive issue in our world. 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:48.720 Yeah, but thinking about it as it relates to your own life, you've been thinking about that in ways that are pre-personal. 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:53.600 So, yeah, to the extent that you feel comfortable sharing, I would love to hear about that. 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:54.160 Yeah. 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.360 Yeah, there were, I think there were two primary dynamics in my

childhood. 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.680 I think we're all trying to make sense of our childhood and what what we experience. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:11.519 One was an overwhelming feeling of ineptitude, which for people who know me now or even know me as an adult, they're very surprised when I share some stories as a kid. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.800 But um, really not very good academically. 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:21.199 Um, I used to practice sports in the backyard by myself for hours and really think I was amazing. 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.920 And then when I try out for the team, get a very low. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:29.040 So this is kind of funny, but I was in the G team uh for field hockey. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:30.480 Australians play field hockey. 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:30.800 Yes. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:32.319 That does start with A. 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:37.920 So if you go like that, I was on the G A would be the highest, A is the highest, and then of course there's a B team. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:38.160 Yep. 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:39.279 I was on the G team. 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:39.759 Yeah. 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:43.279 Uh having played hockey in the backyard for hours and hours and hours. 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:48.480 So there was often a gap in my childhood between what I thought I was good at and what I was actually good at. 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:48.959 Yeah. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:56.879 Um, and for guys, so much of a sense of competence, identity, masculinity, at least in US culture. 00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:57.360 Yeah. 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.399 It's probably attached more to athleticism than any other single feature. 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:08.240 I mean, I think for a kid in school, particularly when you get into teenage hood, I think it's it's academic sports and girls. 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:08.480 Yeah. 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.120 And I was zero for not necessarily in that order. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:11.839 Not in that order. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.879 I'll get a C in physics if I can make a girl laugh. 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:17.360 No, like that's a good deal. 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.319 Uh, and I was a hundred percent zero for three. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:24.240 Like, I just really just felt it's it's hard to explain. 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:30.319 I felt like the world was tilted against me, and and I was just one of those people that there was no chance for. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:30.720 Yeah. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:36.480 So I would flop pretty quickly at any struggle or any um challenge. 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:50.240 So I mean it's funny now, but like I was 15 years of age working part-time at McDonald's, and two weeks into the job, the manager sits me down and he says, Steve, I know you think I'm not gonna fire you because I'm a Christian. 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:55.279 There weren't many believers where I was, and so the fact that my boss was a believer was very unusual. 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.800 And he said to me, I know you think that means your job's safe. 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:00.879 I'm here to tell you it is not. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:10.560 If you cannot figure out the fries and the cheeseburgers, holy smokes, and it's because it was happening so fast, and I would just kind of flop. 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.639 So Wow, have another happy meal. 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:13.600 Yeah, man. 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.879 One of the themes I've explored a lot in my life is this this feeling of gross ineptitude. 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:25.759 And then the other one was yeah, that the anger in the household, pr from one predominant parent from my dad. 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:30.399 Um, he was never violently angry, but he was terrifyingly angry. 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:36.639 And uh I just yeah, look at some of the things that I've not thought about in years. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.559 Like I was a very late bedwetter. 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.759 Uh, I was in high school, still wetting the bed. 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:42.240 Yes. 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.159 And so then I remember dropping out of Boy Scouts because it was mortifying. 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:46.879 Like mortifying. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:48.799 You did not want to be there and have anybody else know about it. 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:51.919 Yeah, you go on a camping trip with a sleeping bag, and that's it. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.360 Well one night, and that's it. 00:08:53.840 --> 00:09:05.759 I remember being in high school and hearing I'm staying over at a friend's house, wet the bed again, and my friend, I hear him talking to his mum in the kitchen to Steve wet the bed, you know. 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:06.159 Yeah. 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.120 And the mum very kindly saying, Oh, I'm not sure, but don't worry about it. 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:09.519 We'll see. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:11.840 And I just remember thinking, okay, it's gonna be okay. 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.320 I can privately talk to this mum and uh negotiate. 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:15.600 She'd be able to handle it. 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:16.559 Oh my goodness. 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:16.960 Yeah. 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:23.039 So uh for me, after graduating high school was the first time I felt really good at something. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:28.320 I did go to vet school for a few short weeks, and then I for a couple of weeks. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:29.120 Six weeks. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:30.960 I was a vet vet school for six weeks. 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.360 So you learned pretty quickly that that was not your calling. 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:35.120 It was all I ever wanted to do in my life. 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:35.919 No kidding. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.720 All I ever wanted to do was be a vet, a farm vet. 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:43.120 And uh, I I do need to put on the record, I have delivered a cow. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:44.320 No, you haven't. 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.919 Whether

the cow, the mother cow wanted help or not, we're not sure. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:49.440 You went in and took it out. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:50.000 Wow. 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:51.360 Yeah, just like I'll take care of this. 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:53.679 Have you ever seen a movie City Slickers, Billy Crystal? 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:54.559 Very similar, yeah. 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:55.600 Very similar, yeah. 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:58.240 I'd read a bunch of vet books when I was a kid. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.360 Uh in England, James Harriet was a big name. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:03.200 I love James Harriet stuff. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.120 I basically got all of that memorized. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:05.360 Yes. 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:08.480 Uh that was a lot of comfort for me as a kid, was reading James Harriet. 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:08.799 Yep. 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.840 And he he lays it out in the book on how to deliver a calf. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.360 So that's all I need. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:24.720 Um so yeah, I was in vet school, and I'd only been a Christian a couple of years, and church became like my first predominant experience with unconditional love. 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:27.039 It was it was profound. 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:34.399 Um, the church was uh small, it was fundamentalist, it was legalistic, and it was extremely loving. 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.240 It was a church of Christ, yep, and it was everything I needed. 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.879 Um and my soul relaxed in church. 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.919 It became the safe place for me, became where I could be myself. 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.240 And so I graduated high school. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:11:00.320 I sent a call from God to go into ministry, which was scary and exciting, because I had to tell my very secular family that I want to now give my life to the church. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:01.519 Yeah, that was the scary side. 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:06.320 And that was something that they did not understand, and you're not sure if your dad's gonna go off. 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:06.639 No. 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:13.679 When my when my sister became a Christian, um mum and dad allowed that, and then when I tried to get baptized, they shut it down. 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:16.240 Which, as you know, in the churches of Christ, baptism makes it. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.360 Oh, yeah, it's a big deal. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:18.720 You're gonna go to heaven, yeah. 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:19.600 You're gonna get wet. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.600 So it was about a year from me wanting to get baptized till they let me. 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.759 Um at the time, I thought we were being persecuted for our faith. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:29.120 My parents are good people. 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.360 I think they thought we'd joined a cult. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:31.679 Right. 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:36.320 And I think they were trying to be protective parents to figure out what are what are our kids into. 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:36.960 Yep. 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.960 Um, so I finally got baptized um a year afterwards. 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:49.679 But yeah, I graduated high school, went to vet school, uh, was miserable, and really sense God in that six weeks calling me to ministry. 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:51.440 That it's amazingly quick. 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:57.440 I mean, you must have had a pretty high level of self-awareness to know that quickly after having tried going down this road. 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:58.399 Nope, I want to shift. 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.039 Yeah, all I'd ever wanted to do in my life was be a farm vet. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:02.320 So I finally got to college. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.559 Um I remember dissecting a cockroach. 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:08.559 I remember it and being like, Well, why wouldn't you want to do that for the rest of your life? 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:09.600 The rest of my life. 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:10.000 Yeah. 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:14.000 Um, I have shared this story before in sermons, and then the vets come at me. 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.799 Uh, why would I want to help animals when I can help people? 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.000 That was a mistake. 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.639 Because then um big vet is a little demeaning to have a big vet came after me and had a word. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:23.039 Uh-huh. 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.639 Um, but yeah, I I told my parents, I I made a deal with God. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:28.159 I was I was 17. 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:35.039 I said, Okay, God, if you take care of my parents' response, I would love to be a follower, I'd love to be a pastor. 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.080 That would be amazing. 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:36.559 Yeah. 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.440 It took me a week to have the courage to tell them. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:44.000 I sat them down and I said, Um I want to be a minister. 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:52.240 And in Australia, you can be a parliamentary politician minister, or you could be a religious, yeah. 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.799 And they said, Well, which kind do you have in mind? 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:55.919 The good kind or the bad? 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.960 And they're both bad. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:58.320 In Australia, they're both bad. 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:00.879 And I said, Yeah, I want to be a a pastor. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.200 And uh they flipped. 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:10.720 They they went from trying to stop us from going to church a lot to saying, well, if you're gonna be a pastor, you better get to church. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:18.639 So I then wow because in my parents' ethic, you give yourself to whatever you give your word, you put your commitment in. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:21.279 Uh they're people of very high integrity. 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:22.720 Yeah, I was gonna say it's a high character. 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:24.000 Very high

character, yeah. 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:24.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:36.240 And so I started uh giving a ton of my time to the church, and I went into sales because that's the fastest way to make money when you only have a high school degree, to save money for Bible college. 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:39.120 And it turned out I was a really, really good salesman. 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.000 I can believe that. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.519 I uh was eighth in Australia for yellow pages. 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:47.360 I sold yellow pages advertising, and I was really good at it. 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:47.679 Yeah. 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:55.600 For young people who are listening, there used to be these things called phone books, and they had phone numbers on the white pages and then advertisements on the yellow pages. 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:57.840 So you were it's so funny. 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.720 I made$1.2 million for the yellow pages. 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.279 No, and they paid me$32,000. 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:04.720 And I thought I was 18. 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.279 I thought this is the best job in the world. 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:07.840 Yeah. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.720 Uh, and so I did it to save money for Bible college. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:15.039 But what happened in me was really the first time I felt really good at something. 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:15.919 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:23.519 And I swung so wildly from like this ineptitude fear to this like wild overconfidence. 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:32.240 And I think I think we've all met young men in their late teens, early twenties that are just super confident and really obnoxious. 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:33.279 That was totally me. 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:34.320 Wow, yeah. 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:41.200 Yeah, though, people will write sometimes about there can be kind of two extremes of the inflated self, yeah. 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:49.519 I just have to think that I am successful and attractive and gifted, and it's very unrealistic. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.600 But then if it gets deflated, then I crumple into the deflated self. 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:54.000 Yeah. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:00.480 And trying to find a place in the middle, you know, where Paul says in Romans, consider yourself with sober judgment. 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.240 That's a that's a tricky, tricky road to navigate. 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:05.120 It is, yeah. 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.919 I I work with so many leaders that don't realize that their confidence is based in fear. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:11.279 Uh and that was me at least. 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:12.399 Oh, say that again. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.720 Confidence is based in fear. 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.879 There's this volcano underneath. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:22.080 Like like that little incompetent, inept boy is not that far under the surface for me. 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:28.879 But if I just keep being successful and shiny and it just keeps all of that tucked away. 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:35.759 So there could be like layers of what are apparently confidence that are really just trying to keep that little boy. 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:36.720 Oh man. 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.320 I mean, it's hard to explain how good it felt to be good at something. 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:40.639 Yeah. 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:49.279 I remember at when I was selling and doing well, the first time I started being good at it, I remember consciously thinking, Oh, this is what my friends felt in high school. 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:56.320 Uh this is that that's the feeling that most people if they were good at sports or good with girls or getting good grades, this is what they felt. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:57.200 That's what it feels like. 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:57.919 And now I've got it. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:58.639 So I'm I'm there. 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.480 I'm helping take that as a daily drug. 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:01.039 Yeah. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.720 So it was a daily drug. 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.120 And then I took that drug into Bible college, and then we added a Bible degree. 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.960 Ah, so now you have the authority of God to give you even more confidence. 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:11.440 Yeah. 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:11.679 Yeah. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:16.320 Most dangerous human in the world is a young white male Bible college graduate. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:24.559 So because yeah, we just you take that that that great feeling, and then you start talking on behalf of God, and it's wow. 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:25.120 Yeah. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:33.600 Which is ironic when you think that it's all about following Jesus who ended up on the cross, which was not it didn't look terribly successful. 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.720 Well, I tell you this, I could explain that really well for you. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:40.879 I could make a great sermon out of that. 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:41.200 Yeah. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:48.240 So you've experienced uh mega inflation and and uh deep deflation. 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.720 What what led you to find something in between? 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.679 Yeah, for me it was um hospital chaplaincy. 00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:00.320 Uh that was I graduated college, and as you know, and a lot of people probably won't know, my first ministry was as a hospital chaplain. 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:06.000 And uh John, I I think I think you can't stay inflated when you're in rooms of death. 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:11.039 I think just the context of death uh strips you of pretense. 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:17.920 It felt to me like I walked into those rooms in those early days with all of these tools on my ministry tool belt. 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:24.559 And my tools were charm, quick humor, quick Bible knowledge, quick answers. 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:31.680 And then it felt to me like as I walked into those

rooms, it's almost like God pushed the button on my belt that just made them all fall off. 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:37.519 So fascinating because I think it would be easy to think in the church world, yeah, that's it. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.000 If you have those tools and you can bring them, yeah, then you are a fully equipped servant of God. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:42.480 Yeah. 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.400 And to realize, no, you can have those kind of tools and the heart can be off. 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:52.559 Uh and then uh somehow that's all gonna get in the way instead of be useful. 00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:01.599 Yeah, I think we've all uh I think if you've ever lost someone precious to you, we've all experienced a well-meaning friend saying something stupid, stupid like Job's friends did. 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.599 Yeah, we've all done that, and so chaplains have that temptation too. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:10.240 Uh and it's because when you walk into death, death just generates anxiety. 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:15.279 You don't know you're anxious, and so you say something to manage your own anxiety. 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:23.920 So, you know, when if you've lost a loved one, that that precious friend who's a really good person, what's going on is they just can't manage their death anxiety. 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:32.559 So chaplaincy was the the lesson of learning to notice all of that in me, manage it so that I could actually help people. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.359 You can remember an early experience of having to deal with a death situation? 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:38.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.519 So you mean in chaplaincy? 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:43.200 In you, yes, yes. 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:58.799 Uh early on when you when when you were in your training, yeah, is there a particular uh uh event, situation that you got thrown into that made you aware uh I I'm not really ready for this. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:01.200 Yeah, 40 minutes into my first shift. 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.119 Wow, uh there were six new chaplain residents training. 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.400 I was the one on call doing the 28-hour overnight shift. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:19.039 And 40 minutes into our orientation, one of the beepers goes off, and next thing I know, I'm by myself with 12 screeching people, you know, thinking after 40 minutes of training. 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.960 Yeah, and no training, just orientation. 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:24.720 Here's the bathroom, uh, here's the break room, here's a doctor to meet. 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.519 It it that's when I realized there is no training. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.640 They throw you in and they make you do it, and then you debrief every day. 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.079 So chaplain training is 90 minutes of group therapy every morning. 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:36.480 Wow. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.279 I didn't know any of this when I took the job, and I would not have taken the

job if I'd known this because I was still very much in that hiding phase. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.759 And if I can't be impressive, I'm not gonna take a job where I'm exposed. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.680 It's all subconscious, right? 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:50.720 Like, I can't say anything. 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:51.680 You can't name any of that. 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.160 Yeah, it's all driving me subconsciously. 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.240 So, yeah, 40 minutes into the job, the beeper goes off. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:04.559 I'm now sent by myself, and that was the first moment I realized I'm bankrupt. 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.559 I had that same feeling of ineptitude that is very familiar to me, but it'd been rusty, it'd have been like seven years. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.480 Uh I was 24. 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.839 My last feeling of that deep ineptitude, I was like 17. 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.519 So I'd kind of gone on a seven-year bender of confidence. 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:20.799 Yeah. 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.559 Such great language. 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:23.759 A bender of confidence. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:24.640 It was a bender. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.200 Yes. 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.480 And then I walk into an intensive care waiting lounge. 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:29.680 Somebody has died. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.119 This family is screeching at the top of their lungs. 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.279 My job is to guide them. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:37.440 And I look on my ministry tools. 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:38.559 Charm is not gonna work. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:39.599 Humor, not now. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:39.839 Yeah. 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:40.720 Bible verse. 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.680 They wouldn't even hear it if I tried to say it. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:45.279 I've got nothing. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:45.599 Wow. 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:50.799 So then I went back to that feeling of shame and like, oh, I'm incompetent, I'm over my head again. 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:51.599 Feeling. 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:52.319 Yeah. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.279 Um, I almost drowned when I was five. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.599 I fell into a creek and I was over my head, and my dad had to come rescue me. 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.000 Wow. 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:01.119 And I remember it. 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:06.240 I remember standing on the bottom of the creek, looking up, and I remember my dad jumping in. 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:15.759 And um I remember uh just a lot of the it was a family picnic with uncles and aunts and stuff uh on my uncle's farm. 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.440 And and that's what it feels like to me when I'm out of my depth. 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:24.960 I was gonna say, I mean, one of the classic words for anxiety or overwhelm is being flooded. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:25.599 Yeah. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.920 So for you, that's not just metaphorical. 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:29.200 And needing to be

rescued. 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:30.480 I can't I can't say that. 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.680 So I'm in this intensive care. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:39.680 My job is to do something, I don't know what to do, and that's where my ineptitude always shows up. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:39.920 Yeah. 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:42.720 So I also I I was leading a church through COVID. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:43.680 I had to manage it. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.400 I had to manage that same gap through COVID. 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.559 I none of us had ever led through COVID. 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.039 Right. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:54.160 Um, and it's like, well, if somebody smarter than me were here, they would know what to do. 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.440 So that that was my first experience with it, and you know. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:12.160 Uh the next morning we're now in a circle with five other chaplain residents and two supervisors, and we're all debriefing my day because I was the one that did the long shift. 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:18.240 And then the next day we're all debriefing her day and then his day, and then it comes back around to me. 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:26.079 And it was very threatening because they would point things out in me that I didn't know were in me. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:33.839 And when you are acting out of pretense, that's what I would call this thing, this kind of confidence bender. 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:35.680 Acting out of pretense. 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:36.079 Yeah. 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:41.039 Somebody sees right through your pretense to your your fear, and you don't see it. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:42.960 That's very threatening. 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:43.519 Yes. 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:49.759 So basically what happened in Chaplaincy is death and being a newlywed. 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.880 Lisa and I had been married six days when I started my chaplaincy. 00:22:53.119 --> 00:23:04.319 So being in rooms of death, being newly married, and daily group therapy became like a catalyst, like a special forces training. 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:05.759 It just felt super intense. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:06.240 Yes. 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:12.720 And within uh 10 days, 14 days, the supervisor in this group, very little was done one-on-one. 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.640 You know how you're supposed to pull someone outside privately? 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:14.880 Yep. 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.480 And then you do the Oreo feedback? 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:18.640 Something nice, something difficult, something nice. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:19.359 Not these guys. 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:20.160 Not that yeah. 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.920 The supervisor in front of the group, it's my turn on the hot seat. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.440 I think it was 10, 14 days in. 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:27.680 He says, Steve, I've got a nickname for you. 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:29.599 You're super chaplain. 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.599 And I said, That's right. 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:34.240 I have been seen. 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:36.799 Finally! It took you longer than I would have liked. 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:37.759 10 days? 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.400 Yeah. 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.920 And everyone laughed. 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:40.400 Wow. 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:42.960 Uh and and I realized, you know, I'm not an idiot. 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.240 Oh, they're not laughing with like they're laughing at me, and he's laughing. 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:48.160 And he wasn't mocking, he wasn't being mean. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:48.640 Yes. 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:50.000 He was just naming. 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:53.440 And he said, uh he said, here's what's interesting. 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:55.839 He said, you're one of those people I've been watching you. 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.559 You seem to be quite good at a lot of different things. 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:02.880 And I'm thinking, tell everyone you've ever like, just spread the news. 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.640 And he said, It must be exhausting because you work so hard showing us how good you are. 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:10.960 Yeah. 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.839 And as soon as he said it, I saw it. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.279 Like he said it. 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:16.720 I suddenly see it. 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:23.119 And it's like he like he put his finger on seven years of my life that I hadn't seen. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:28.480 I look around, and all of the all of my peers are like, yeah, they've seen it. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:35.279 Like they I I'm guessing right now, like when you say those words, I'm not mostly thinking about you in that moment. 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:36.960 I'm just living with that with me. 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.200 Like how much of my life is doing that? 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:47.440 I think how many people who are listening to us right now is like, oh, I just so let's just all pause and let that knife go in a little bit. 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:53.920 I I have come to believe that the hardest spiritual growth has to do with what you do with blind spot knowledge. 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.400 I the things that you don't know that everyone around you knows, God knows. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.160 Yes, everyone around you knows. 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.279 Yeah, your your blind spots are like poker tells. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:04.640 Like, I'm good at poker. 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.720 No, no, I've got all these tells. 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.680 And I and I remember like, how did he know? 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.200 I've been, and then I started to think, well, why didn't anybody tell me before? 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:16.640 How did I get this far? 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:20.400 Yeah, but of course what's the matter with all those other stupid people in my life? 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:21.599 Did nobody love me enough? 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:25.759 But of course, right, as I thought

back, and I'm happy to go into it, but it takes a while. 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:32.799 But I I could think of like five incidents where somebody tried to pull me aside and say, You're no picnic to be around. 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.000 Like you've got this, but I just for whatever reason I wasn't ready. 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.039 I couldn't hear it. 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:37.519 Yes. 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:46.160 Um, and and so for me, this daily group therapy, I wish I could say that I just, John, I embraced the pain. 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.400 No, I was um, I was really combative for like 12 weeks. 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.599 Um, they were a different theological point of view than me, some of them extremely progressive. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.359 Yeah, I was very conservative. 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.079 And so I would say, Wow, they don't really believe in Jesus like I do, and they're full of psychobabble, and I'd internally say all of these things. 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:06.880 Externally, I'd say, Thank you for your feedback. 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.039 Because I'm a people pleaser. 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.039 Internally, I'm going home to my wife saying, These people are nuts. 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:14.400 This program is nuts. 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:14.799 Yeah. 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:16.480 I'm gonna go back to vet school. 00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:17.920 Let me get this is crazy. 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:29.680 I I was thinking when you were saying that that I'm eager to get back here, but just again, as in thinking about processing life and spiritual life, it's interesting how God is able to break through all kinds of theologies. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:30.480 Yes. 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:35.839 And so you go to a legalistic fundamentalist church, but the love of God can break through. 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.279 Jesus can break through that. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.839 You talk to people that are progressive way on the other side, Jesus can break through that. 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:46.319 There's something I love in that story and just feel very strongly. 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.200 It's important to seek theological clarity. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:54.079 And part of theological clarity is recognizing Jesus is never boxed in by anybody's theology. 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:54.559 That's right. 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:55.680 And he can just break through. 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:56.480 That's right. 00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:56.799 Yeah. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:57.200 Yeah. 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:08.640 I remember one of them uh at one point I was being combative, I don't remember how many weeks in, and and the the supervisor in training named Randy, he said, Steve, we're all trying to help you. 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:10.160 We all love you. 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:13.279 And he said, Perfect love casts out fear. 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:14.319 You're afraid. 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:15.200 Perfect love. 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.119 And I said, You guys don't love me perfectly, only Jesus goes. 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:22.960 One for you. 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:25.200 Oh gosh. 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:26.799 It's more it's mortifying. 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.000 I mean, I I should give thanks for those very patient. 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.880 But of course, I was I was one of many that came through their program. 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:33.200 Yep. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.480 They're very patient with me. 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:34.880 Yeah. 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.480 Uh, but something clicked in in 10, 10 or 12 weeks. 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:39.759 I'd seen enough death. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.079 I'd come to the end of myself enough times. 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:42.319 Yeah. 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.839 And something I realized this group, he's telling me the truth. 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.960 This is the first professional group that unconditionally loves me. 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:49.359 Wow. 00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:53.839 Where my employment and my performance is unrelated to what's going on here. 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:54.319 Like, yeah. 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:56.160 And you know what that you can imagine it, John. 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:03.680 What they're trying to do with chaplains is they're trying to get you integrated as fast as they can because they're sending you into real environments with real suffering. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.440 You're going on into battle. 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:10.000 And you might, people watching or listening might say, like, surely they should train you. 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.599 You you can't train somebody on how to help somebody through death. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.960 You just have to go do it. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.480 And so their model, they call it action, reflection, action. 00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:20.400 Which I, in fact, I think is Jesus'. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:24.160 I was gonna say that sounds kind of it's very Jesus-y. 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:24.880 Go do it. 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:26.079 Yeah, let's talk about it. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.039 Yeah, go do it again. 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:27.440 Yep. 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.039 And so that's their model of education. 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.920 Which also means get real comfortable with doing it bad. 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:37.680 Because the journey will be do it bad and do it bad and reflect on it, and then eventually you'll be able to do it better. 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.680 But you can't skip the doing bad part. 00:29:03.860 --> 00:29:09.620 What one of my very first encounters, the chap the supervisor sends me off and I said, What if I make a mistake? 00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.019 He's like, Oh, you'll make so many mistakes. 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:14.019 That was his that was his pep talk. 00:29:14.100 --> 00:29:15.539 Yeah, off you go. 00:29:15.620 --> 00:29:16.580 You're gonna make so many. 00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:17.779

Can't wait to hear about him. 00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:19.299 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:24.660 So so to me, Chaplain C really was like a salvation experience, yeah. 00:29:26.259 --> 00:29:30.420 Um, that's where I was introduced to systems theory, which has become obviously a passion of mine. 00:29:30.580 --> 00:29:30.980 Yes. 00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:41.380 Uh, because of my own healing, my own and then at that 10 or 12 point uh 10 or 12 weeks into it, was it a moment? 00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:44.900 Was it just a fairly rapid realization? 00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:46.980 Did something shift inside you? 00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:47.700 Do you remember? 00:29:48.100 --> 00:29:49.220 It felt like a flip. 00:29:49.380 --> 00:29:50.900 I don't remember the conversation. 00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:55.059 I remember though, realizing when will I ever get this gift again? 00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:57.620 Uh these people are seeing things in me. 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:04.660 Uh by then I'd done my Genogram or my family of origin presentation, which is a systems theory thing. 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:14.660 And I and for those who are not familiar with it, you kind of map your family on a on a big piece of butcher paper on the wall for everyone to see, and then you talk through dynamics. 00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:22.019 And I remember one of the uh students, one of my peers, said to me, You're from a dysfunctional family. 00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:47.700 And I remember the horror of that, like because I was up there telling great cuss family stories, because the cuss family propaganda is we're amazing, we're all amazing, and I'm telling these amazing stories, and he says, You're from a dysfunctional family, and it was like this threat, and then it was this amazing relief, like oh, I get to be dysfunctional like everybody else. 00:30:48.100 --> 00:31:01.860 Yeah, I get to be, I get to have problems, I get to do it wrong, and that that was like a relief valve somewhere in there, somewhere in there was I'm now gonna embrace 90 minutes every day. 00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:16.820 Um, the other interesting thing, parallel to what we're talking about, is I'm I'm studying cohorts right now, and I think the human soul changes more when we're helping each other grow as much as we are working on our growth. 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:18.900 Like you just wrote a book on 12-step. 00:31:19.539 --> 00:31:25.140 I think one of the reasons 12-step works is I'm chasing my sobriety and I'm helping you with your sobriety. 00:31:25.299 --> 00:31:28.100 Yeah, and that was also that disarmed me. 00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:30.820 Yep, that I get a turn on the hot seat, but it's not every day. 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.140 Yeah. 00:31:31.299 --> 00:31:32.820 And tomorrow it'll be your turn. 00:31:33.059 --> 00:31:34.340 And you're playing both roles. 00:31:34.580 --> 00:31:38.180 I'm helping you, but as I'm helping you, I'm doing my own work. 00:31:38.259 --> 00:31:39.620 Like, like what you just said with me. 00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:41.220 Like, I think we can all relate to that. 00:31:41.299 --> 00:31:44.100 I'm every day, I'm also processing my stuff. 00:31:44.259 --> 00:31:46.340 It was really, really powerful. 00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:51.860 So when I was a pastor, we did these cohorts with our staff and our elders, and uh, it was always optional. 00:31:51.940 --> 00:32:05.059 We never made people, but uh they loved it because they got they got to dig into some things in their life that are costing them too much, and we we helped them process it without judgment and it made them more effective. 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:14.180 So uh part of kind of an entre entry point to talking about a lot of these issues is anxiety, yeah. 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:20.500 And uh and then the relationship of anxiety to systems, human systems. 00:32:21.220 --> 00:33:00.660 And it's so fascinating, and it's part of why I'm so glad for people to be part of that uh part of this conversation, is often we'll think of anxiety as only an unpleasant psychological experience to be managed or medicated, and and it may well need uh medication and or therapy, and yet it is uh in some ways deeply connected to our spiritual condition, our identity, in ways that need not just to be um removed or escaped from, but uh sat with, lived in, opened to, changed by. 00:33:01.140 --> 00:33:02.820 So talk some. 00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:10.420 I don't have exactly the right words for that, but yeah, you know, Kierkegaard, the the great Danish philosopher, talked a lot about anxiety. 00:33:13.539 --> 00:33:17.460 Like, don't you think Kierkegaard was a tall like every Danish guy I've ever met is really tall. 00:33:17.620 --> 00:33:19.140 Oh, I have you ever thought about this? 00:33:19.299 --> 00:33:21.460 I'm sorry, I when you I thought you said tall, and I couldn't. 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:22.660 I think he's tall. 00:33:22.900 --> 00:33:23.380 Tall. 00:33:23.539 --> 00:33:24.900 Uh honestly, I don't know. 00:33:25.059 --> 00:33:25.299 I don't know. 00:33:25.460 --> 00:33:26.740 You've never you've never wanted it. 00:33:26.820 --> 00:33:29.140 Uh uh, no, no, I've never wanted. 00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:30.900 He was born on my same birthday. 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:31.779 We share the same birthday. 00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:32.660 You and Kierkegaard. 00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:36.100 No, I me Kierkegaard and I share the same birthday, and we're both Scandinavian. 00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:40.420 So but back to back to that issue. 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:50.660 Yeah, how did uh anxiety and talk a bit about how you think about anxiety, but its connection to discipleship, yeah, uh spiritual growth, sin. 00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:52.740 Walk us through that a bit. 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:53.779 Yeah, okay, yeah. 00:33:53.940 --> 00:34:00.420 So, yes, um, first of all, anxiety, I think the problem with that word is it covers so much territory. 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:02.820 Yes, and yet there are many

different kinds. 00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:12.179 So there are some people, uh, most of the work I do is with leaders, and the classic driven leader doesn't think they're anxious because they think anxiety is worry and fear. 00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:14.179 I'm not worried and I'm not afraid of much. 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:14.500 Right. 00:34:14.659 --> 00:34:16.340 So they say, Well, I'm not an anxious person. 00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:18.980 All of their people are saying, You're really anxious. 00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:22.980 We wish you would figure this out because we're kind of tired of dealing with it. 00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:31.460 Then you have people where uh mental health medication is a gift, and that's a specific type of anxiety that has more to do with chemicals. 00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:40.579 I I would just want to be on the record to say, as a pastor, of course, I have no training or skill in helping with mental health medication. 00:34:40.740 --> 00:34:43.539 I would just say theologically, it's a gift from God. 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:43.860 Yeah. 00:34:44.019 --> 00:34:46.579 And if you need it, you should thank God and take it. 00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:48.659 That's my view of the matter. 00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:56.820 Because I think some people still feel like there's a stigma, you know, that that having mental health medication means that they're spiritually weak or something. 00:34:57.139 --> 00:35:02.900 Uh, as much as I've shared about my life, the fact is I wake up happy almost every day. 00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:06.900 Um, I kind of uh lighten it with football. 00:35:06.980 --> 00:35:09.700 Like I'm at first and goal almost every day when I wake up. 00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:11.220 Uh I've got the ball in my hand. 00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:14.179 Of course, because of my childhood, I probably can't throw a touchdown. 00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:15.940 But in my I wake up happy. 00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:16.179 Yeah. 00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:22.260 But people who struggle with like clinical depression, generalized anxiety disorder, they wake up on the wrong end zone. 00:35:22.420 --> 00:35:22.820 Right. 00:35:23.059 --> 00:35:27.460 And you can't blame me for being happy, and you can't blame them for struggling. 00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:32.340 And mental health medication won't get them to first and goal, but it will get them down the field. 00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:41.139 My friend Rick Blackman, who's a psychologist, went through sex school together, he would say some people, largely because of genetics, are simply in what he calls the anxiety club. 00:35:41.300 --> 00:35:41.860 Yeah. 00:35:42.099 --> 00:35:42.420 Yeah. 00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:47.539 And uh nobody wants that, but with some people, that's just simply the reality. 00:35:47.780 --> 00:36:00.900 So uh if you find yourself in the anxiety club, um uh get all the tools that you can to deal with it, you know, exercise, diet, relationships, meaning, and medication for sure. 00:36:01.059 --> 00:36:08.019 There will be a certain set of folks where it's simply gonna help my body get to kind of baseline normal. 00:36:08.260 --> 00:36:10.900 Yeah, just kind of even the chances of debt. 00:36:11.220 --> 00:36:21.380 And and for anybody who's in it right now, there'll also be times that people that are in that club, when they're in if anxiety's at a four or five, there might be a variety of techniques gonna help with it. 00:36:21.460 --> 00:36:25.539 When you get in the red zone, yeah, uh for sure medication. 00:36:25.700 --> 00:36:30.579 Yeah, uh, you know, in the red zone, other kinds of techniques are just not going to help you get out. 00:36:30.740 --> 00:36:30.980 That's right. 00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:32.500 So that is kind of its own topic. 00:36:32.740 --> 00:36:33.380 Yep, that's right. 00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:33.619 Yeah. 00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:34.019 Yeah. 00:36:34.179 --> 00:36:35.940 My field, we call it anxiety. 00:36:36.099 --> 00:36:41.619 My field is what's commonly known as reactivity, and it's always based on a false need. 00:36:42.099 --> 00:36:48.500 And false needs are fascinating because in the moment they feel like a real need, like you have to have them. 00:36:49.220 --> 00:36:53.940 And so this is what we were trained in in these debriefs in chaplaincy. 00:36:54.260 --> 00:37:00.659 Every Wednesday, George Dobler, who was trained in systems theory, would come and teach us on anxiety. 00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:13.220 And John, it just was incredibly helpful to me because I thought as a chaplain, my job was to focus very closely on this family or group that were in a crisis. 00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:21.059 And George taught us that our first job is to pay attention to ourselves and manage ourselves because we have all of this anxiety in us. 00:37:21.139 --> 00:37:23.460 And of course, I'm like, I'm not anxious, I'm Australian. 00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:26.740 Like, you know, I still am like a battery fan when we first started. 00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:27.700 Yeah, put another one. 00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:29.139 Yeah, nothing. 00:37:29.220 --> 00:37:30.260 Yeah, like Australian. 00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:32.500 We work, Ozzy's worked really hard at looking relaxed. 00:37:32.820 --> 00:37:34.019 That's what I would say about us. 00:37:34.579 --> 00:37:40.099 And so he's like, no, no, all of us carry this little cauldron of false needs. 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:42.179 And I started to notice it. 00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:53.139 For example, I would walk into the room, and maybe somebody would grab me by the shoulders as a chaplain, and sometimes they would they would shake you quite violently and scream, how could God allow this to happen? 00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:57.059 Well, one of my false needs is having the answer. 00:37:57.700 --> 00:38:05.460 Anytime somebody asks me a question, yeah, if I don't know the answer, it just proves I'm the stupid little boy that I so I always have to have the answer. 00:38:05.700 --> 00:38:06.019 Wow.

00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:16.900 And so, even though of course they're not asking a question, my false need is saying, give them a theodicy, give them an explanation for evil. 00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:27.780 And I'm not proud of saying, John, in those first three months, I explained a lot to grieving people because my false need told me they needed it. 00:38:27.860 --> 00:38:28.260 Yeah. 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:31.940 So what false needs do is it's it makes you wildly unreliable. 00:38:32.019 --> 00:38:34.579 You can no longer see what the situation requires. 00:38:34.740 --> 00:38:38.099 Uh you're you don't even know, you're just acting out of your need. 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:40.099 And that's why it's called reactivity. 00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:42.019 I'm reacting to reacting right now. 00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:43.139 What I think I need. 00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:45.220 Well, and I don't even know it's my need. 00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:45.460 Right. 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:47.619 I genuinely think I'm helping you right now. 00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:48.659 Thank God for me. 00:38:48.740 --> 00:38:50.820 I showed up and I've got an answer. 00:38:51.220 --> 00:38:53.860 Uh, here's a Bible verse that would really help you right now. 00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:55.059 And the person's like, uh huh. 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:58.740 You just shrunk my very complex problem down to a Bible verse. 00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:01.539 You know, we've all met people that do this. 00:39:02.260 --> 00:39:05.220 Uh they don't realize that they're the anxious person. 00:39:06.019 --> 00:39:12.099 So we were trained before you walk into the room, with the the phrase was first take your own pulse. 00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:12.420 Uh huh. 00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:19.780 If somebody's heart has stopped and you're rushing to the code, chaplains are on the code team, like just like the panels and all that we're doing too. 00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:20.179 Yeah. 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:25.460 Before you walk into that room, just check yourself, okay, am I aware of God right now? 00:39:25.700 --> 00:39:28.260 No, I've forgotten God because I'm all amped up. 00:39:28.659 --> 00:39:34.980 Or sometimes, John, uh, like on these long 28-hour shifts, if if you're in the break room at 10 p.m. 00:39:35.059 --> 00:39:44.820 at night, you've finally sat down for your meal, and Seinfeld's on the television, and you've just got this little sanctuary after an awful day of maybe four deaths. 00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:47.780 I want to be clear, this didn't happen very often, but it happened. 00:39:47.860 --> 00:39:49.539 You'd have multiple deaths in a day. 00:39:49.700 --> 00:39:50.579 You're at 10 p.m. 00:39:50.740 --> 00:39:51.380 You're a zombie. 00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:54.179 You are death is very emotionally exhausting. 00:39:54.340 --> 00:39:56.659 The beeper goes off, it's the fifth death. 00:39:57.139 --> 00:40:05.380 You haven't finished your meal, the Seinfeld show is not finished, and your brain starts saying, You

have to finish the show. 00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:09.300 You're you have to finish the meal's gonna go cold. 00:40:09.460 --> 00:40:14.500 And then your brain starts saying, How selfish that this person died while you were trying to eat. 00:40:14.659 --> 00:40:16.900 Like everything is around, yeah. 00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:18.340 Yeah, then you get angry. 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:18.900 Yep. 00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:22.340 Then you then I go into, I shouldn't say you, I go into self-pity. 00:40:22.740 --> 00:40:25.300 How hard is my life is so hard right now. 00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:26.340 Who's watching? 00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:28.500 Who's noticing how hard I'm a martyr? 00:40:28.579 --> 00:40:29.780 Like all of these crazy things. 00:40:30.019 --> 00:40:31.059 Yes, yes, yes. 00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:36.900 So I've got three minutes to go from that to connected, aware, and present in the room. 00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:45.460 Because that poor who whatever I'm gonna walk into, they deserve the very best I can give them in their nightmare scenario. 00:40:45.700 --> 00:40:50.579 If I'm not aware of what I'm bringing into the room, I infect the room with my root needs. 00:40:51.220 --> 00:41:01.539 And they, because I'm a powerful person, a chaplain or a doctor or a pastor or any leader at all, is a very powerful presence when they walk into the room. 00:41:01.700 --> 00:41:06.179 And everyone around them will shift to keep that person in power. 00:41:06.740 --> 00:41:21.059 So if I'm not doing my work and I walk into that room trying to get back to my cold meal quickly, and I say to the greeting person, I put my hand on their shoulder, which is kind of an intimidating thing to do, and I say, Can I pray for you right now? 00:41:21.619 --> 00:41:22.500 What are they gonna say? 00:41:22.579 --> 00:41:25.220 They're not gonna say, No, why don't you stay longer? 00:41:25.539 --> 00:41:27.059 They're gonna say, Oh, thank you. 00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:28.260 Yes, please, thank you. 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:29.139 That was so helpful. 00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:30.420 Wasn't helpful at all. 00:41:31.220 --> 00:41:34.019 And I see pastors do this all the time, frankly. 00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:34.340 Yeah. 00:41:34.579 --> 00:41:42.099 Where we don't realize that we're at the end of our rope, we're irritated, we've got whatever is boiling in us, and we're not managing it. 00:41:42.260 --> 00:41:44.980 And that's an example of how we infect the room. 00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:46.820 That's so fascinating. 00:41:46.900 --> 00:41:58.579 So we'll and we'll actually use prayer, which we think of as this spiritually very good activity, to manage people and bypass uh sacrificial love for them. 00:41:58.900 --> 00:42:04.099 I I my primary job as a chaplain was to beg God for a miracle. 00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:08.500 Most people call a chaplain and they beg the chaplain to beg God for a miracle. 00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:09.380 That's the job. 00:42:09.619 --> 00:42:09.780 Wow. 00:42:09.940 -->

00:42:15.619 Sometimes you're there at death, and but a lot of the time they believe that your prayers have more chance than theirs. 00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:20.900 I'm a people pleaser, and the percentages were not great. 00:42:21.139 --> 00:42:24.340 If we're keeping a chart of miracles, not many. 00:42:25.700 --> 00:42:30.579 About four or five months in, I noticed I'd started shifting my prayers when people would pray. 00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:36.980 I would do a medical assessment of the patient with no medical training, no medical training whatsoever. 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:39.460 And I'd think to myself, it's not looking good. 00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:39.780 Yeah. 00:42:40.099 --> 00:42:48.659 And I would pray what I came to call the brace yourself prayer, which is dear Lord, we some version of we we know it's not looking good. 00:42:48.900 --> 00:42:50.579 Help this person as they manage it. 00:42:50.740 --> 00:42:51.139 Amen. 00:42:52.579 --> 00:42:57.780 Now, okay, on the one hand, it's very human, but that's not what they asked. 00:42:58.019 --> 00:42:58.260 Yeah. 00:42:58.420 --> 00:43:03.059 Uh, but better for my soul to never get my hopes up. 00:43:03.700 --> 00:43:05.780 So therefore, never pray a prayer of hope. 00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:08.019 That took me quite a while to locate that. 00:43:08.179 --> 00:43:12.260 But I not look like a failure if I pray for healing and then it doesn't happen. 00:43:12.740 --> 00:43:14.420 Again, I mean dozens of times a day. 00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:14.579 Yeah. 00:43:14.740 --> 00:43:17.139 And I'm bringing all of that into every room I walk into. 00:43:17.220 --> 00:43:17.380 Yeah. 00:43:17.619 --> 00:43:24.980 Instead of awareness of God, reading what the situation needs, God, what what do you think the situation calls for? 00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:26.500 What are the people asking for? 00:43:26.659 --> 00:43:28.019 Can I give it to them? 00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:32.260 You know, it's so can I ask you a real practical question with the take the pulse thing? 00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:39.940 I'm thinking for anybody listening to us right now, because I've just I've been thinking about this a lot quite recently, trying to monitor my mind more. 00:43:40.179 --> 00:43:48.260 Been listening to old talks Dallas Willard did on guidance and receiving guidance from God and just thinking, is this thought from God? 00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:48.659 Yeah. 00:43:49.059 --> 00:43:53.300 And I I I I'm just more aware than usual how many of my thoughts are not. 00:43:53.380 --> 00:43:53.619 Yeah. 00:43:53.780 --> 00:44:03.460 And I'll be thinking about um friends, and then the next thought will be, now I wonder what I might be able to say to them subtly to try to indicate how successful I am. 00:44:03.619 --> 00:44:04.099 Yes. 00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:06.019 And it could be while I'm praying or something. 00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:06.340 Yeah. 00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:14.659 So it's like it's good to be aware of that, and I can name it,

but awareness and naming doesn't n necessarily change it. 00:44:15.059 --> 00:44:19.619 So is there like a next step when you like you take your pulse, your pulse isn't good? 00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:20.500 Yeah, right. 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:20.659 Yeah. 00:44:20.740 --> 00:44:21.220 Well, now what? 00:44:21.619 --> 00:44:23.380 Then then then then what what then what do you do next? 00:44:23.940 --> 00:44:26.340 I do think you try to relax into God's presence. 00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:31.860 I I try to physiologically pay yeah, pay attention to my nervous system. 00:44:32.659 --> 00:44:39.539 So, like um, if if you see a snake or if you avoid a car accident, your nervous system is a big reaction. 00:44:40.179 --> 00:44:46.420 But these false needs that I I picture the nervous system as a harp or a stringed instrument of some kind. 00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.099 And this is just a metaphor that's helped me, maybe it will help people. 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:54.260 If you swerve for a car accident, it's like someone went and kicked your harp over. 00:44:54.579 --> 00:44:59.940 They just walked in and they just kicked it over, and the whole thing's on the ground, and it's every note is playing. 00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:04.420 But false needs just pluck one string and we don't notice it. 00:45:04.659 --> 00:45:12.659 So when I'm when my people pleasing is activated, it's so under the radar that I don't even I don't even know my nervous system is activated. 00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:15.220 And that's what makes me fascinated. 00:45:15.460 --> 00:45:19.139 I then go into a reactive state and I'm no longer in reality. 00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:21.619 I'm now in my own reality, a false reality. 00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:29.860 Many people in precious relationships, whether it's a marriage or with a kid, you've had this reactive pattern where you kind of lose sight of things. 00:45:30.099 --> 00:45:31.539 Well, now you're in a false reality. 00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:35.860 I I believe that God manifests in concrete reality. 00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:39.860 Jesus said, You can know truth, and truth sets you free. 00:45:40.099 --> 00:45:45.300 And so the way I hear that is uh you can be in reality, and when you're in reality, you're free. 00:45:45.539 --> 00:45:51.059 And it's interesting, he's I like that that quote gets uh kind of chopped up so often. 00:45:51.220 --> 00:45:53.220 Um, if you remain in my word. 00:45:53.619 --> 00:45:54.099 Yeah. 00:45:54.340 --> 00:46:01.220 So like if you're abiding in reality, in the truth, in my presence, um, then you will know the truth. 00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:01.700 Yeah. 00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:04.900 The first thing to go away when you're reactive is awareness of God. 00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:06.099 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:08.099 But it's the hardest thing to notice. 00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:10.579 Like it's really hard to notice when you've stopped noticing God. 00:46:10.740 --> 00:46:10.980 Yes. 00:46:11.139 --> 00:46:16.659 So it's easier to notice your nervous system, your pulse, your breathing, your racing mind. 00:46:16.740 --> 00:46:22.179 Those are easier to notice, and they then become like the the gate into Oh yeah, lights on a dashboard. 00:46:22.420 --> 00:46:22.820 That's right. 00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:23.059 Yeah. 00:46:23.139 --> 00:46:24.740 Yeah, I've forgotten the Lord right now. 00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:25.059 Yeah. 00:46:25.220 --> 00:46:26.579 Surely the Lord was in this place. 00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:27.940 I was not aware of it. 00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.260 Yep. 00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:29.139 Okay, great. 00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:31.539 Well, now I'm gonna wait until I'm aware of it. 00:46:32.019 --> 00:46:36.420 And then sometimes when I'm not aware of it, I act like it's true anyway. 00:46:36.659 --> 00:46:41.619 So I more often than not, I just remember by faith God is here. 00:46:42.019 --> 00:46:46.260 And I I reset my nervous system, it takes 60 seconds long. 00:46:46.820 --> 00:47:00.260 Now I can walk into a room of high anxiety, whether we're talking hospital, family, ministry, whatever the context, the the amazing thing is I can walk into chaos, drama, anxiety, anger. 00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:08.340 And if I'm managing my false needs with the help of the Holy Spirit, my resilience to stay connected goes through the roof. 00:47:08.579 --> 00:47:08.820 Wow. 00:47:08.980 --> 00:47:09.300 Yeah. 00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:11.460 So that's kind of what what I recommend. 00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:12.980 That's the ch that's the task. 00:47:13.059 --> 00:47:13.700 That's the challenge. 00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:16.980 And by the way, uh, it never gets easier. 00:47:17.139 --> 00:47:18.900 You just it's all about being intentional. 00:47:19.139 --> 00:47:22.820 It doesn't I wouldn't say this has become an automated habit of mine. 00:47:22.980 --> 00:47:24.900 It's still something I I work on. 00:47:25.139 --> 00:47:25.619 Yeah. 00:47:25.860 --> 00:47:26.260 Yeah. 00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:32.900 Can I ask you a question or two from this is uh somebody you know much better than me, but Edmund Edmund Friedman. 00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:35.139 Friedman's fable about Failure of Nerve, yeah. 00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:45.539 Written, yeah, the failure of nerve is a book he wrote where uh he was apparently he would counsel with people, he would consult, a very interesting career, right? 00:47:46.099 --> 00:47:51.619 And uh he talks a lot about uh having a differentiated self. 00:47:51.780 --> 00:47:52.019 Yeah. 00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:54.980 So I'll I'll give you this quote and then would love to have your thoughts on it. 00:47:55.059 --> 00:47:56.740 We might do one or two more of his. 00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:22.500 He said, uh uh, for example, as I begin to focus on emotional process rather than cultural background, it became obvious to me that whatever the nature of a family's customs and ceremonies, the universal problem for all partnerships, marital or otherwise,

was not getting closer, it was preserving self in a close relationship. 00:48:22.740 --> 00:48:26.019 Something no one made of flesh and blood seems to do well. 00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:37.300 And then in parenthesis, I eventually came to define my marriage counseling, no matter what the cultural mix, as trying to help people separate so that they would not have to separate. 00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:39.300 Yeah, it's a great quote of his. 00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:40.019 Yes, yeah. 00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:41.780 Separate so you don't have to separate. 00:48:42.019 --> 00:48:42.740 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:43.700 What does that mean? 00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:44.500 What does that look like? 00:48:44.740 --> 00:48:52.340 Yeah, so we have a trainer on our team named Jimmy Carnes, and he's a he's a wonderful trainer, and he used to travel when he would speak with hula hoops. 00:48:52.420 --> 00:48:57.700 In fact, sometimes he would go where he's speaking, stop by the Walmart, buy a bunch of hula hoops, and bring them to the training. 00:48:57.780 --> 00:49:01.460 And he'd get people up and they would have different sized hula hoops. 00:49:01.700 --> 00:49:04.740 And he was representing that that's your emotional field. 00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:10.340 So you and I are sitting across this table, and we think of ourselves that my skin here is where I end. 00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:13.700 But really, I kind of end somewhere between here and here. 00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:19.380 Like if I was really anxious right now, you would feel it. 00:49:19.700 --> 00:49:22.340 And the closer I get to you, the more you're gonna feel it. 00:49:22.420 --> 00:49:28.579 If I was standing at a tree behind me and maybe you decided to pause and pick a lemon behind you and enjoy yourself, you wouldn't feel it. 00:49:28.659 --> 00:49:31.380 But the closer I get, the more you catch my field. 00:49:31.539 --> 00:49:33.300 Well, you have a field too. 00:49:33.619 --> 00:49:35.700 So that's what Friedman's talking about. 00:49:35.860 --> 00:49:44.659 We've all been in the room when somebody walks in and they're kind of like an eeure, and everyone was having a great time, and then the room just gets a little chilly. 00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:49.059 And what's fascinating is no one sat down and had a meeting and said, Oh, you know what? 00:49:49.220 --> 00:49:52.099 When Peter walks in, if he's upset, we're not allowed to be happy. 00:49:52.179 --> 00:49:54.900 But everyone knows it's like an unspoken agreement. 00:49:55.139 --> 00:50:03.139 So Friedman and Systems Theory, it's this fascinating idea that we have to watch the anxiety transfer when we get close to each other. 00:50:03.380 --> 00:50:04.579 The anxiety transfer. 00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:09.539 We catch and spread each other's reactivity and we merge into each other's emotional field. 00:50:10.179 --> 00:50:15.700 So people solve the problem of reactivity by either getting closer to it or further away from it. 00:50:15.940 --> 00:50:17.539 Enmeshment or detachment. 00:50:17.860 --> 00:50:18.820 I enmesh. 00:50:19.139 --> 00:50:34.740 Uh I was trained from my youngest memories to move into the anxiety to make it better, which means I'm overhelpful, I'm an overfunctioner, I often give people advice when they've not asked for advice, they're telling me about their day, and I'm like, well, here's how you can make that day better. 00:50:35.059 --> 00:50:41.780 Because my false need is to solve their reactivity so that I can be fine. 00:50:42.019 --> 00:50:48.420 And I've had to learn as an enmesher that I can actually be with a highly reactive person and not be triggered. 00:50:48.820 --> 00:50:52.019 Now, other people, we've met these people, they go far, far away. 00:50:52.179 --> 00:50:53.460 That's how they solve it. 00:50:53.780 --> 00:50:58.420 At the most extreme, you've probably met somebody who's cut off a family member. 00:50:58.740 --> 00:51:02.659 And they say, I solved it by cutting them off, but they won't stop talking about them. 00:51:02.900 --> 00:51:06.340 No, you are still carrying all that anxiety, even though you made distance. 00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:06.820 Yeah. 00:51:07.059 --> 00:51:09.539 Uh a simpler example would be a classic dad. 00:51:09.619 --> 00:51:11.139 There's a bit of a gender stereotype. 00:51:11.380 --> 00:51:17.780 Classic dad with like a middle school or high school daughter whose boyfriend uh broke up with her, and she comes home all upset. 00:51:17.860 --> 00:51:17.940 Right. 00:51:18.099 --> 00:51:21.059 And the dad says, Well, there's plenty more fish in the scene, right? 00:51:21.380 --> 00:51:24.260 That's just getting distance from the anxiety. 00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:30.820 Uh the dad is actually able to walk into that young lady's anxiety and say, I'm so sorry. 00:51:31.059 --> 00:51:31.940 That's terrible. 00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:32.900 What a jerk. 00:51:33.139 --> 00:51:39.860 His loss instead of this uh getting distance and then a pithy piece piece of advice. 00:51:40.340 --> 00:51:46.980 So Friedman's talking about he's noticing how we infect each other by by getting close and not close. 00:51:47.059 --> 00:51:49.380 And that's that's what we learned in Chaplain Z as well. 00:51:49.539 --> 00:51:55.059 That's how I train leaders is emotional field regulation as much as mission. 00:51:55.460 --> 00:52:00.820 Um, not to get too metaphysical with it, but it was striking when you were talking about how we think we stop with our skin. 00:52:00.980 --> 00:52:01.380 Yeah. 00:52:01.539 --> 00:52:04.179 Um, Dallas Willard, who, of course, was a philosopher. 00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:05.220 I've heard of him. 00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:11.059 Uh part of what he'll talk about is that we have a hard time recognizing the reality of the spiritual. 00:52:11.380 --> 00:52:20.579 We're all just so conditioned in our world to think physical stuff is real, but spirit is uh uh feels kind of unreal. 00:52:20.740 --> 00:52:26.099 And part of what he

talks about is consciousness, your mind, yeah, uh, your soul is very real. 00:52:26.179 --> 00:52:28.900 But it's not identical to any particular part of your body. 00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:29.460 Yeah. 00:52:29.780 --> 00:52:38.820 You you you I could, you know, take a pair of tongs and uh remove remove you uh uh your body atom by atom by atom. 00:52:38.900 --> 00:52:40.340 I would never find Steve in there. 00:52:40.579 --> 00:52:40.820 That's right. 00:52:40.980 --> 00:52:43.300 I wouldn't find your life, I wouldn't find your consciousness. 00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:46.019 Consciousness is not reducible to any part of the brain. 00:52:46.340 --> 00:52:53.300 So Dallas is actually uh we inhabit our bodies and the areas right around our bodies. 00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:57.700 That uh just as a spiritual, as a matter of the soul. 00:52:57.940 --> 00:53:05.780 Um, yep, our bodies are central to us and we inhabit them, but we're actually not just uh reduced to them. 00:53:06.019 --> 00:53:11.700 And uh there is a sense in which that part that's immediately around our bodies, we inhabit that as well. 00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:11.940 Yeah. 00:53:12.099 --> 00:53:20.179 It's the first time I've heard it described from the emotional perspective in a way that maps with what he says is just true about the soul. 00:53:20.420 --> 00:53:24.500 If if I have a smaller hula hoop, it doesn't mean I'm not an emotional person. 00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:24.980 Yeah. 00:53:25.220 --> 00:53:28.980 Like I I have people in my life who uh would be described as very emotional. 00:53:29.220 --> 00:53:41.059 They cry very easily, they feel deeply, but they still have a small hoop, which means I can get close to them without catching, or maybe another way to say it, without them needing me to feel the way they feel. 00:53:41.300 --> 00:53:54.659 So what Friedman, what what was radical about Friedman, and I don't fully agree with Friedman on a lot of things, but uh, but he was basically saying, oftentimes you think that a good marriage is I'm feeling what you're feeling. 00:53:54.820 --> 00:53:58.980 Ah, but a good marriage is I'm present to you as you're feeling what you're feeling. 00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:01.700 I see you as you're feeling what you're feeling. 00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:06.820 Um, there's a wonderful interview with Amy Grant just recently when she was talking about her husband, Vince Gill. 00:54:07.059 --> 00:54:10.340 And he, I think most people who see him would say, Well, there's a calm presence. 00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:12.099 He just kind of exudes that. 00:54:12.579 --> 00:54:17.139 And um, she said to him, you know, the thing I love about you, Vince, is you understand me. 00:54:17.300 --> 00:54:21.139 And he said, Baby, I do not understand you at all. 00:54:21.940 --> 00:54:24.260 He said, But I welcome you. 00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:28.500 Which was a wonderful, like that's a wonderful example of differentiation. 00:54:28.659 --> 00:54:36.420 Yes, is you can be all spun

up and anxious and hurting, but you don't need me to necessarily carry what you're carrying. 00:54:36.579 --> 00:54:40.179 You need me to be close to you and see you as you're carrying it. 00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:43.700 And that's what at least Friedman and Systems Theory would define as intimacy. 00:54:44.099 --> 00:54:55.380 Now I will tell you how opposite I am of that when Nance and I got married, because for me also enmeshment and lots and lots of dynamics contributing to that that we don't need to go into because it's not therapy hour. 00:54:55.539 --> 00:55:05.619 Um, but early on in our marriage, Nancy would say something, and a comment I would make to her periodically, I'm not proud of it, not making it up, is I know you better than you know yourself. 00:55:07.139 --> 00:55:08.659 What was the next response? 00:55:08.980 --> 00:55:11.780 Somehow she was not pleased to hear that. 00:55:12.179 --> 00:55:15.619 I thought greater love hath no man. 00:55:16.019 --> 00:55:20.260 You know, it's like, yeah, you think you know you, but I know you better than you know. 00:55:20.420 --> 00:55:23.940 And it was so stupid and of course utterly wrong. 00:55:24.099 --> 00:55:24.420 Yeah. 00:55:24.659 --> 00:55:29.619 But to me, uh, it was a statement that I thought would be conveying love. 00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:36.260 I have watched you so closely, I have monitored you so deeply, I have penetrated your inner heart that I know you. 00:55:36.500 --> 00:55:41.220 And uh, of course, it was uh offensive and insulting to her. 00:55:41.539 --> 00:55:51.619 And so that would manifest itself in things like uh when we moved, Nance grew up in California, spent most of her life there, but we went back and lived in Chicago for about a decade. 00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:53.860 When we moved back there, she was just miserable. 00:55:54.019 --> 00:55:54.820 Go figure. 00:55:55.059 --> 00:56:00.900 Somehow, the beauty and charm of Chicago she just wasn't receiving. 00:56:01.460 --> 00:56:05.139 And so you're gonna get mail from Chicago now. 00:56:05.380 --> 00:56:06.260 Chicago's a wonderful place. 00:56:06.579 --> 00:56:08.500 People in Chicago are fanatical about that city. 00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:09.539 Yep, no, they are. 00:56:09.619 --> 00:56:12.820 It's a beautiful place, and Jesus loves Chicago deeply. 00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:16.980 But when we were living back there, initially she was just depressed. 00:56:17.059 --> 00:56:17.619 Yeah. 00:56:17.860 --> 00:56:22.820 And so my response was uh, oh, I guess we made a mistake. 00:56:22.900 --> 00:56:23.780 We shouldn't have moved back here. 00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:24.099 Yeah. 00:56:24.340 --> 00:56:25.539 And of course, I didn't mean that. 00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:25.940 Right. 00:56:26.099 --> 00:56:33.059 I was just trying to put pressure on her what was going on under the surface, but I couldn't even admit this to myself was I feel kind of guilty. 00:56:33.139 --> 00:56:35.860 We made the decision together, but now you're here and you're not happy. 00:56:36.019 --> 00:56:37.460 That makes me feel bad. 00:56:37.700 --> 00:56:43.700 So I will try to put pressure on you and make you snap out of it and feel the way that I want you to feel. 00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:49.059 And so it was both a lack of knowing and kind of the opposite of welcoming. 00:56:49.220 --> 00:56:50.900 And it took me a while. 00:56:50.980 --> 00:56:52.260 Um, but it was helpful. 00:56:52.340 --> 00:56:58.340 I think eventually through that part of what I learned was it's okay for me to be okay when she's not okay. 00:56:58.659 --> 00:56:59.139 That's right. 00:56:59.300 --> 00:57:06.500 And that doesn't mean being callous or not caring that she's like, no, I I want to care about that and no, how can I help? 00:57:06.659 --> 00:57:13.460 But I also don't have to say, well, if you're not okay, I'll be miserable too, or I'll become a martyr. 00:57:13.700 --> 00:57:22.500 And uh so that process of differentiation, that experience was one helpful step in that program for me. 00:57:22.659 --> 00:57:25.539 But I I was I could not have gotten it worse. 00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:31.220 It's a great story because um Nancy likely only needed you to listen and care, right? 00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:39.220 But your brain is telling you you must I must fix it, I must change it, I must take it personally, manipulate it. 00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:39.619 Yep. 00:57:39.860 --> 00:57:43.220 And so what lit me up as a pastor was systems theory. 00:57:43.300 --> 00:57:52.260 Because what's you know what's funny, John, is my formal education is theology, my informal education and school of hard knocks is systems theory, and systems is now what I'm most known for. 00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:54.980 Yes, no one really cares what I think about the Bible. 00:57:56.019 --> 00:58:01.460 Um, but um, but false needs have a gospel, and this really lit me up. 00:58:01.700 --> 00:58:09.619 Uh about 10 years ago when I realized all of this interpersonal dynamic study that I've done for leadership works in our faith as well. 00:58:09.780 --> 00:58:19.059 Yes, yes, it's also between us and God, and in the moment, my fascination is following Jesus in the moment, not conceptually. 00:58:19.220 --> 00:58:22.980 I I think we talk too much in our faith conceptually about faith. 00:58:23.380 --> 00:58:27.700 I I know you don't, but I think as a general we do, we say, I'm a Christian. 00:58:27.860 --> 00:58:29.380 Like it's kind of a thing. 00:58:29.700 --> 00:58:32.340 I'm fascinated in the moment right now. 00:58:32.500 --> 00:58:33.539 Am I aware of God? 00:58:33.700 --> 00:58:35.780 What gospel am I living for right now? 00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:42.820 And in that moment when Nancy shared that, you had a gospel that had Armageddon at the end of it. 00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:43.139 Yeah. 00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:46.980 Like, if you don't do this, John, you won't get freedom, peace, and love. 00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:50.099 So you better do this,

otherwise the world's gonna end. 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:56.500 And and learning how to notice that and mistrust it is deeper work, but that's changed my life. 00:58:56.579 --> 00:59:03.619 Like realizing, oh, Jesus offers me freedom, peace, and love, and people pleasing are offering me freedom, peace, and love. 00:59:03.700 --> 00:59:09.619 They're both teaching me a gospel, except I can never please enough people to relax. 00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:11.139 I've never done it. 00:59:11.380 --> 00:59:13.059 Where I'm like, enough people like me. 00:59:13.460 --> 00:59:15.860 I can never please enough people to relax. 00:59:16.179 --> 00:59:24.659 When I work with perfectionists, perfectionism has a gospel, uh, and it's a it's a carrot out of reach, uh, and that can never do it perfectly enough. 00:59:24.820 --> 00:59:27.860 Control freaks can never control a situation enough to relax. 00:59:28.500 --> 00:59:33.539 So when you look at your false needs, your little All false needs have a gospel. 00:59:33.700 --> 00:59:34.980 Every false need has a gospel. 00:59:35.139 --> 00:59:38.019 Every gospel offers freedom, peace, and love. 00:59:38.260 --> 00:59:43.139 Like back to me being an Aussie teenager, good grades, good sports, girls. 00:59:43.619 --> 00:59:44.579 Now I belong. 00:59:44.659 --> 00:59:46.500 That's the that's the promise. 00:59:46.659 --> 00:59:47.139 Yeah. 00:59:47.860 --> 00:59:49.139 I never had freedom or peace. 00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:58.099 Because and no matter how hard I tried, and I think it's Tim Keller that teaches us that only the Christian gospel that God pays, and the human gets the benefit. 00:59:58.420 --> 01:00:01.619 So Jesus pays, and then we get the freedom, peace, and love. 01:00:01.700 --> 01:00:07.700 But every other gospel, including reactivities gospel, we pay and pay and pay and pay and pay. 01:00:07.940 --> 01:00:12.500 So I would go home from school having tried to make a girl laugh and couldn't get her to laugh. 01:00:12.579 --> 01:00:13.780 She laughed, but it was always at me. 01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:15.139 It never was what I wanted. 01:00:15.380 --> 01:00:18.659 And then, John, I would I would spend days in my room just paying. 01:00:18.980 --> 01:00:20.500 How am I gonna go back to school? 01:00:20.579 --> 01:00:21.700 What are what is she thinking? 01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:22.820 What is she saying to her friends? 01:00:23.220 --> 01:00:23.539 Yes. 01:00:23.780 --> 01:00:27.700 And then after I'd preach a sermon, The Gospel of Performance Anxiety. 01:00:28.340 --> 01:00:30.500 Pay and pay and pay and pay and pay. 01:00:30.740 --> 01:00:42.500 Um, and I I'll never forget being at a conference where you and Dallas were on stage and you were interviewing Dallas, and he said, I don't think I I don't worry about how I did after. 01:00:42.659 --> 01:00:45.220 And I remember thinking, No, I want that. 01:00:45.300 --> 01:00:46.900 Like that's not true in my life. 01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:48.579 And that sounds good. 01:00:48.740 --> 01:00:51.860 That sounds like good news to speak and give it to God. 01:00:51.940 --> 01:00:52.099 Yeah. 01:00:52.260 --> 01:00:58.500 And that for me was part of my quest of how do I, I must not be entering Jesus' gospel enough. 01:00:58.740 --> 01:01:07.220 Well, and that's where I do think your study of systems, I and it's probably true for any area of truth that runs deep enough. 01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:13.139 If I get clear on this, it will help me see Jesus and the life of faith more clearly. 01:01:13.220 --> 01:01:13.539 Yeah. 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:21.539 Because I grew up in the church with the gospel that was basically how to satisfy the minimal entrance requirements for getting into heaven when you die. 01:01:21.780 --> 01:01:22.260 Right. 01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:28.420 And the problem with that is that doesn't actually involve living a life of peace, joy, and love right now. 01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:28.579 Yeah. 01:01:28.820 --> 01:01:30.659 It's just when I die, I will go there. 01:01:30.820 --> 01:01:36.420 So to come to understand, no, Jesus' gospel was not how do you get there when you die? 01:01:36.740 --> 01:01:44.579 It was now life in the kingdom of God is available in this moment and then this moment and then this moment. 01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:49.860 So the gospel is the announcement of good news for every single moment of life. 01:01:50.099 --> 01:01:53.460 And that's part of what you're learning in systems theory. 01:01:53.619 --> 01:01:59.059 I mean, when you think about it, uh another word for kingdom is system. 01:01:59.380 --> 01:01:59.940 Yeah, that's right. 01:02:00.260 --> 01:02:07.539 I don't know that I've ever associated those two a whole lot, but I think it's not an accident that that language was so vivid in his day. 01:02:07.700 --> 01:02:16.260 And I think in our day, probably systems communicate a lot of the depth and complexity and dynamism that the word kingdom did back then. 01:02:16.659 --> 01:02:24.659 I was reading through Matthew, it just in my habit of reading, and I was a lead pastor struggling under the weight of all of the pressure and stuff. 01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:34.019 And uh get to Matthew 11, and Jesus talks about his easy yoke and his light burden, and I said out loud, I was just privately reading, and I said, That's a lie. 01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:38.659 And I thought, might be something going on under the surface. 01:02:38.980 --> 01:02:40.099 Might be worth taking a look at. 01:02:40.340 --> 01:02:42.740 Not supposed to call Jesus a liar and be a preacher. 01:02:43.220 --> 01:02:47.220 And uh and that's it would have been an interesting sermon the next week, though. 01:02:47.380 --> 01:02:49.539 Well, I've I've Lies Jesus told. 01:02:49.700 --> 01:02:50.500 Yeah, yeah. 01:02:50.740 --> 01:02:57.700 Uh, and that opened my door to the way we syncretize faith and our coping mechanisms. 01:02:58.019 --> 01:03:08.260 And so basically, you know, I had a had a little chat to God about

this, and I think God invited me to look at all of the all of the things I'm putting on the yoke that he has not actually put on. 01:03:08.579 --> 01:03:12.260 Like being there for everybody, making everybody happy. 01:03:12.740 --> 01:03:16.820 Uh the problem is this all felt like what God wanted me to do. 01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:23.860 So I do think it's hard to tell what's God calling me to do and what are my reactivity and anxious habits calling me to do. 01:03:24.099 --> 01:03:25.619 They all get mixed up. 01:03:25.700 --> 01:03:30.820 But if you can learn to detangle them or at least be curious about them, it's pretty wild. 01:03:30.980 --> 01:03:38.900 And so so that brings me to another quote in uh uh Friedman that I was eager to get your thoughts on. 01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:42.260 This one is particularly for folks that are doing leadership stuff. 01:03:42.500 --> 01:03:42.659 Yeah. 01:03:43.300 --> 01:03:57.300 Uh in any type of institution whatsoever, when a self-directed, imaginative, energetic, or creative member is being consistently frustrated and sabotaged rather than encouraged and supported. 01:03:58.260 --> 01:04:11.460 What will turn out to be true 100% of the time, regardless of whether the disruptors are supervisors, subordinates, or peers, is that the person at the very top of the institution is a peacemonger. 01:04:12.820 --> 01:04:46.260 By that I mean a highly anxious risk avoider, someone who is more concerned with good feelings than with progress, someone whose life revolves around the axis of consensus, a middler, someone who is so incapable of taking well-defined stands that his disability seems to be genetic, someone who functions as if she had been filleted of her backbone, someone who treats conflict or anxiety like mustard gas, one whiff, on goes the emotional gas mask. 01:04:47.139 --> 01:04:48.099 Freeman, man. 01:04:48.579 --> 01:04:49.460 What do you think? 01:04:49.619 --> 01:04:50.179 Yeah. 01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:52.980 Um the because you work with leaders a ton. 01:04:53.220 --> 01:04:53.700 Yes. 01:04:54.019 --> 01:04:59.860 The most leaders, it systems theory to me feels like the movie The Matrix. 01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:04.740 It's an old movie, but you've got the two pills, and one of them shows you a reality that's always feeling like. 01:05:04.980 --> 01:05:06.099 Oh gosh, what a great analogy. 01:05:06.340 --> 01:05:07.300 That's what it feels like to me. 01:05:07.380 --> 01:05:12.260 You take that systems pill and you start seeing systemically the problems. 01:05:12.500 --> 01:05:12.820 Yes. 01:05:12.980 --> 01:05:20.260 And then when you treat them systemically, the ability to dissolve the problems and build healthy culture, it's like exponential. 01:05:20.500 --> 01:05:24.019 So I feel like systems-level leadership is like driving in fifth gear. 01:05:24.260 --> 01:05:30.260 And you take even the most driven, mission-oriented leader that isn't doing this work, they're they're in second or third. 01:05:30.340 --> 01:05:30.900 Yeah. 01:05:31.220 --> 01:05:37.300 Because uh a good leader is learning to notice the emotional temperature in the room. 01:05:37.940 --> 01:05:49.059 Like I'm always interested in if even if I'm the primary leader, sometimes there's someone in the room that has the most power because of the tone of their voice, maybe it's cynicism, for example, or sarcasm. 01:05:49.619 --> 01:05:52.179 And I can feel that person shut the room down. 01:05:52.420 --> 01:05:54.980 Well, it's my job to get the room going again. 01:05:55.139 --> 01:05:56.500 And I can do it a number of ways. 01:05:56.659 --> 01:06:00.420 I can punish that person, or I can just more gently redistribute it. 01:06:00.740 --> 01:06:05.860 Like, oh, uh, you know, we know that Peter often has a very strong opinion about everything. 01:06:06.019 --> 01:06:09.860 And my concern, Peter, is when you do that, that no one feels comfortable speaking. 01:06:10.099 --> 01:06:10.900 Thank God I'm here. 01:06:10.980 --> 01:06:12.340 Maybe I'll use humor. 01:06:13.220 --> 01:06:14.980 Sally, we've not heard from you at all. 01:06:15.059 --> 01:06:15.220 Yeah. 01:06:15.380 --> 01:06:17.619 But I've noticed when you speak, you've always got wisdom. 01:06:17.700 --> 01:06:19.059 I wonder what's on your mind. 01:06:19.780 --> 01:06:23.700 But rather than what often happens if you don't have a systems awareness is people. 01:06:24.099 --> 01:06:26.980 Peter and his sarcasm has gotten away with it for years. 01:06:27.220 --> 01:06:27.700 Yes. 01:06:27.940 --> 01:06:38.900 And then someone like me come in and and I as a consultant and notice these patterns, and then what the people will say is, Well, you're right, and we've known about it, but we haven't addressed it, so we can't now. 01:06:39.940 --> 01:06:43.300 Like it it would be dishonoring, like we've let him get away with it for so long. 01:06:43.619 --> 01:06:43.780 Right. 01:06:43.860 --> 01:06:46.179 And then we would look like we lacked integrity when we're talking about it. 01:06:46.340 --> 01:06:46.900 We're to blame. 01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:47.139 Yeah. 01:06:47.220 --> 01:06:48.579 And I'm like, well, thank God I'm here. 01:06:48.659 --> 01:06:49.700 Let's go do it together. 01:06:49.860 --> 01:06:51.220 And it's very easy to do. 01:06:51.380 --> 01:06:51.539 Yeah. 01:06:51.700 --> 01:06:52.980 Peter, there's two problems. 01:06:53.139 --> 01:06:54.340 One is your behavior. 01:06:54.500 --> 01:06:56.900 The second one is how long we've let you get away. 01:06:57.059 --> 01:06:57.300 Uh-huh. 01:06:57.380 --> 01:06:58.740 And we have not respected you. 01:06:58.820 --> 01:06:59.059 Yeah. 01:06:59.300 --> 01:07:03.059 If we had more respect for you, we would have called you on this bad behavior earlier. 01:07:03.220 --> 01:07:06.340 The fact is, we're conflict avoiders and it's not okay. 01:07:06.579 --> 01:07:08.500 But boy, are we calling you on it now. 01:07:08.659 --> 01:07:08.820 Wow. 01:07:09.059 -->

01:07:09.700 For example. 01:07:10.019 --> 01:07:14.420 Now that will make things worse or better, but they won't stay the same. 01:07:15.059 --> 01:07:18.500 So systems isn't always good at making things better. 01:07:18.740 --> 01:07:21.380 It's always good at making things unstuck. 01:07:21.940 --> 01:07:25.700 And most leaders don't So when you say systems, you mean systems thought. 01:07:25.940 --> 01:07:26.980 This kinds of these kinds of systems. 01:07:27.220 --> 01:07:29.059 Systems analysis, systems awareness. 01:07:29.220 --> 01:07:29.460 Yeah. 01:07:29.780 --> 01:07:31.380 Where you name what everyone's feeling. 01:07:31.539 --> 01:07:31.700 Right. 01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:33.300 And you get it out on the table. 01:07:33.380 --> 01:07:33.539 Yeah. 01:07:33.700 --> 01:07:35.700 In a non-threatening, non-accusatory way. 01:07:35.860 --> 01:07:38.980 My favorite things about systems is no one's to blame. 01:07:39.619 --> 01:07:40.900 Everyone's complicit. 01:07:42.099 --> 01:07:47.300 So Peter, the sarcastic, cynical guy, he's the scapegoat in the system. 01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:47.460 Yeah. 01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:49.700 Or what we would call the identified patient. 01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:50.260 Right. 01:07:50.500 --> 01:07:51.700 The sick person. 01:07:51.860 --> 01:07:52.820 Let's treat him. 01:07:53.220 --> 01:07:57.380 Actually, in systems, we're all complicit because we're all in the system. 01:07:57.700 --> 01:08:00.420 So the problem isn't that he's sarcastic. 01:08:00.579 --> 01:08:03.780 The problem is he's sarcastic and we let him get away with it. 01:08:03.940 --> 01:08:04.980 That's the problem. 01:08:05.619 --> 01:08:11.780 Well, that makes the chances of him growing more if we're not all scapegoating him. 01:08:12.260 --> 01:08:15.139 And instead saying, we all have a part to play in this problem. 01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:15.539 Yeah. 01:08:15.780 --> 01:08:26.099 And when you study some of the more infamous horrific truth scandals, you see decades of complicity from groups that let someone get away with it. 01:08:26.260 --> 01:08:32.739 And then watching some of those groups scapegoat the bad actor instead of saying, We have complicity here. 01:08:33.539 --> 01:08:34.739 That's a fascinating dynamic. 01:08:35.220 --> 01:08:36.899 There are examples that come to mind. 01:08:37.059 --> 01:08:39.619 I'm sure, I'm sure some are top of mind for you. 01:08:39.859 --> 01:09:00.259 And uh and I do think in the church world also it's like uh there are certain sins that are the really bad ones that if you're guilty of those, but um sins like avoidance, refusal to name truth, um giving into fear when I know that there is misbehavior going on that ought to be named, those don't look so sinful, and we all kind of agree. 01:09:00.419 --> 01:09:01.219 No, they're okay. 01:09:01.299 --> 01:09:02.739 That's right that we're doing that. 01:09:02.979 --> 01:09:06.500 It it helps to know that every system resists change. 01:09:07.379 --> 01:09:09.139 Every system resists, every system resists change. 01:09:09.219 --> 01:09:10.179 I I do too, John. 01:09:10.259 --> 01:09:20.419 Like if if I when I was a lead pastor and I'm the systems guy at our church and I'm teaching all of this, yeah, you watch a new intern come with an idea that I haven't thought of and watch me resist. 01:09:20.500 --> 01:09:20.819 Yeah. 01:09:21.139 --> 01:09:33.139 So just knowing that about myself and that I'm part of a system, the temptation for leaders is we always think we're above everything, but realizing I'm in the system, I'm the problem. 01:09:33.619 --> 01:09:43.460 Uh, and so if you like like what Friedman laid out there, if you decide to name the dynamic, you just know the group's gonna resist. 01:09:43.859 --> 01:09:46.259 What's on the other side of resistance? 01:09:46.339 --> 01:09:47.539 That's what's interesting. 01:09:47.939 --> 01:09:53.779 That most groups don't change because the gospel of Armageddon, that they're back in that false gospel. 01:09:53.859 --> 01:09:56.179 If I speak up, the world's gonna end. 01:09:56.419 --> 01:09:58.179 Therefore, that's the gospel of Armageddon. 01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:03.939 And in every in every work environment, if I say something, I'll lose my job. 01:10:04.099 --> 01:10:06.179 Now, in some situations, that's true. 01:10:06.419 --> 01:10:09.699 That's true, and I find myself often encouraging people to leave. 01:10:09.859 --> 01:10:10.099 Yeah. 01:10:10.419 --> 01:10:17.699 Like, well, you can stay and be and stay anxious, or you can try to change the system and possibly lose your job or get penalized. 01:10:17.779 --> 01:10:18.979 Yep, or you can leave. 01:10:19.059 --> 01:10:19.299 Yeah. 01:10:19.460 --> 01:10:21.139 And they're like, well, what's option four? 01:10:21.379 --> 01:10:24.019 Well, option four is not stay and be well. 01:10:24.579 --> 01:10:28.899 If the leader is unwell, it's very, very hard to stay and be well. 01:10:29.059 --> 01:10:33.059 It's very hard because the because anxiety plus power, it's catalytic. 01:10:33.219 --> 01:10:41.460 So power, you know, when the most anxious person in the room is also the most powerful, it's it's devastating on the system. 01:10:41.859 --> 01:10:47.779 And and going back to my dad again, who I love, like he we I enjoy my dad, I love it. 01:10:47.859 --> 01:10:54.659 It just so happens that when he was an adult and as a very little boy, he had more anger than he could manage, and he dumped it on his family. 01:10:54.739 --> 01:10:55.139 Yeah. 01:10:55.299 --> 01:11:01.139 Um, well, anger plus power or anxiety plus power, tremendous, tremendous damage. 01:11:01.379 --> 01:11:15.219 So if you are down the org chart of a system and you don't like your chances of helping that leader be well, I I feel like I'm jumping around a bit, but I think the question is Jesus saying, Do you want to get well? 01:11:15.460 --> 01:11:18.500 I think that is the question for every human being. 01:11:18.659 -->

01:11:21.299 That's the question I'm checking every leader. 01:11:21.539 --> 01:11:24.500 And then it's not always easy to tell. 01:11:24.819 --> 01:11:32.899 But as a general rule, uh, if I can receive how you experience me, that's generally a sign that I want to be well. 01:11:33.219 --> 01:11:34.339 There's a generalization. 01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:41.139 If I'm the leader and you come to me, if you work for me and you say, Steve, I don't think you realize when you're not well you behave this way. 01:11:41.219 --> 01:11:41.460 Yeah. 01:11:41.619 --> 01:11:44.179 And I say, Thank you so much for telling me. 01:11:44.339 --> 01:11:45.619 I was not aware I did that. 01:11:45.699 --> 01:11:47.059 I don't want to be that kind of person. 01:11:48.099 --> 01:11:58.099 Um and then there's all kinds of signs when someone doesn't want to be well, they're they um well a simple example in a church would be the church is growing rapidly. 01:11:58.339 --> 01:12:04.419 The lead pastor who's the preacher feels more and more pressure, they start blowing up the plan on Thursday. 01:12:04.579 --> 01:12:08.259 They make the worship and creative team work overtime to get ready. 01:12:08.339 --> 01:12:08.500 Yeah. 01:12:08.659 --> 01:12:09.779 Again and again and again. 01:12:09.859 --> 01:12:10.019 Yeah. 01:12:10.179 --> 01:12:13.059 And then when you say this is exhausting, they're breaking the rules. 01:12:13.619 --> 01:12:13.779 Yep. 01:12:13.939 --> 01:12:17.379 The person says, Well, you don't know how hard my life, you should try my life. 01:12:17.619 --> 01:12:19.699 Well, that person does not want to be well. 01:12:19.859 --> 01:12:20.179 Yes. 01:12:20.339 --> 01:12:22.819 So how do you help them go from there to being well? 01:12:22.899 --> 01:12:25.460 This this is maybe a second conversation. 01:12:25.699 --> 01:12:30.979 But if the leader doesn't want to be well, very hard to stay in that system and be well yourself. 01:12:31.219 --> 01:12:31.699 It'll cost you. 01:12:31.779 --> 01:12:31.939 Yeah. 01:12:32.099 --> 01:12:33.139 And do you want to pay? 01:12:33.219 --> 01:12:33.859 Yeah. 01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:39.379 So I've spent most of my life working in churches, love the church. 01:12:39.619 --> 01:12:43.139 Um, I'm going to try to formulate an observation. 01:12:43.219 --> 01:12:47.219 I don't even know that I have a question, but I'll just make the observation and then say your thoughts. 01:12:47.379 --> 01:12:47.859 Yeah. 01:12:48.179 --> 01:12:55.939 And it is uh it feels like the pressure around working at a church seems to be increasing. 01:12:56.099 --> 01:12:56.739 Yeah. 01:12:57.059 --> 01:13:05.779 Um, you know, as a general rule, it remains the case that uh fewer folks are part of a church. 01:13:05.859 --> 01:13:08.899 You know, church membership was pretty constant in the U.S. 01:13:09.299 --> 01:13:14.259 from the 30s when Gallup and so started monitoring it up until around the 90s. 01:13:14.419 --> 01:13:16.579 Now it's definitely decreased. 01:13:16.819 --> 01:13:20.579 If people go to churches, more often they go to larger churches. 01:13:20.739 --> 01:13:26.579 So I think more often pastors feel this kind of comparison and how come we can't be like them? 01:13:26.819 --> 01:13:42.899 And then often the churches that are growing, there will be this kind of performance anxiety, preoccupation with metrics and numbers and methods, and then often people who are there feeling like, oh, the leader is the one whose ego is being fed by all this stuff. 01:13:43.059 --> 01:13:47.219 So we're the very capable helpers that are trying to help that person. 01:13:47.539 --> 01:13:50.979 And there is that anxiety that's just underneath the surface. 01:13:51.139 --> 01:13:57.779 Either we're not building this kind of church, or we are, but it's at risk and it's got to be bigger next week. 01:13:58.019 --> 01:14:24.500 So it feels like a situation where in the church world, um, vulnerability to burnout, preoccupation with visible results uh uh are just continually growing, and I'm not sure of the best ways for churches to be life-giving places for people to work and lead. 01:14:24.979 --> 01:14:26.899 There's a there's a lot there. 01:14:27.539 --> 01:14:29.460 I think there's a lot of good news for the church. 01:14:29.539 --> 01:14:29.699 Yeah. 01:14:29.859 --> 01:14:32.259 And I I also mean the local church. 01:14:32.339 --> 01:14:32.579 Yes. 01:14:32.819 --> 01:14:43.139 Um when I look at the first 300 years of church history from Jesus' resurrection and ascension, to me, the church was a relief valve from the combative culture. 01:14:43.379 --> 01:14:49.619 When I look at the Roman Empire and the way people were treated in the empire, and then they come into the church and they have status. 01:14:49.779 --> 01:14:50.179 Yes. 01:14:50.419 --> 01:14:52.579 And there's somebody and they belong. 01:14:52.819 --> 01:14:58.739 And I think we live, if we stick with the USA, we live in a highly combative, reactive culture. 01:14:59.219 --> 01:15:06.099 So if the church can once again become a relief valve where we are connected, aware, and present when we're together. 01:15:06.259 --> 01:15:14.739 And to me, it's as simple as if if one person's a Republican and one's a Democrat, as long as you're in this building, your brothers and sisters, you're not enemies. 01:15:15.059 --> 01:15:17.460 If you want to go ahead and be an enemy out there, we can't stop you. 01:15:17.619 --> 01:15:18.259 We'd rather you didn't. 01:15:18.500 --> 01:15:19.539 It's their Facebook. 01:15:19.619 --> 01:15:24.099 But in the church, you're gonna take communion together, you're gonna sit at the foot of the cross. 01:15:24.179 --> 01:15:36.019 So I do think the church has an evangelistic strategy of relief that is huge, which is where my own experience as a teenager, my soul could relax in the church. 01:15:36.179 --> 01:15:40.099 I walked in, I'm seen, I'm welcomed, I'm loved. 01:15:40.739 --> 01:15:43.779 So can I

just interrupt you one second and then keep going because I want to hear more? 01:15:43.939 --> 01:15:45.539 But I'd not thought about this. 01:15:45.699 --> 01:15:52.019 There's a way in which what's part of what's needed in the church right now is a clear sense of differentiation. 01:15:52.179 --> 01:15:52.819 That's right. 01:15:53.139 --> 01:15:58.179 Not superiority, not withdrawal, but differentiation from culture. 01:15:58.419 --> 01:15:58.739 Yes. 01:15:58.899 --> 01:16:08.979 And part of that relates to polarization and politics in the sense that uh many folks might try to pressure me, our church, to declare ourselves. 01:16:09.139 --> 01:16:09.779 Are you red? 01:16:09.939 --> 01:16:10.659 Are you blue? 01:16:10.739 --> 01:16:10.899 Yeah. 01:16:11.219 --> 01:16:24.339 You have to say, you gotta choose, and to say, actually, we're followers of Jesus, and that what that means is when you come here, you will be brothers and sisters with other folks of whatever political stripe at all. 01:16:24.659 --> 01:16:27.939 And uh, if you want that, then come and we offer that. 01:16:28.179 --> 01:16:36.739 If you don't, you will not be happy here, but it's actually differentiation from polarization on either side. 01:16:37.059 --> 01:16:46.659 And if we just gave people a simple thing to remember, for church leadership, differentiation looks like defining yourself more than trying to convince them. 01:16:47.059 --> 01:16:53.379 It's like the temptation of a leader is to convince past vision, cell vision, persuade. 01:16:53.619 --> 01:16:59.059 Yeah, but actually, what you just modeled for us is a good example of a differentiated leader. 01:16:59.219 --> 01:17:03.139 Here is who we are, here is how we do things, here is what we're about. 01:17:03.299 --> 01:17:05.859 Well, I think you're infected by this. 01:17:06.419 --> 01:17:08.659 Actually, no, we do this. 01:17:09.139 --> 01:17:12.899 Whereas if you try to convince the other, you build resistance in them. 01:17:13.059 --> 01:17:22.579 If you define yourself, they may or may not change and grow, yeah, but you uh increase the chance that they relax and actually hear what you're saying. 01:17:22.819 --> 01:17:36.019 Caitlin Scheiss um works for the Holy Post, and she is doing a doctorate on exile, uh, Old Testament doctorate, and she's studying the difference between when a preacher teaches exile and a congregant hears it. 01:17:36.579 --> 01:17:36.899 Huh. 01:17:37.059 --> 01:17:37.939 I'd never thought about this. 01:17:38.019 --> 01:17:40.819 And as soon as I heard her talk about it, I was like, this is so helpful. 01:17:40.979 --> 01:17:45.539 The preacher thinks theologically, the congregant hears it politically. 01:17:46.019 --> 01:17:51.299 So the preacher's talking about a theological exile, and the congregant says, we need to get them. 01:17:51.379 --> 01:17:54.179 You know, we're we're the minority that are being persecuted. 01:17:54.419 --> 01:17:54.899 Interesting. 01:17:55.139 --> 01:17:55.619 Fascinating. 01:17:55.699 --> 01:17:55.939 Yes. 01:17:56.099 --> 01:18:07.939 And I thought, wow, that really does explain for me when I was preaching the post-2016 particularly response to my sermons that had been the same tone and topic as before 2016. 01:18:08.500 --> 01:18:14.419 But after 2016, not all of my congregants, not even most, but several heard them differently. 01:18:14.500 --> 01:18:14.899 Yeah. 01:18:15.139 --> 01:18:18.019 And I I was so confused, I'm like, that's not what I said. 01:18:18.179 --> 01:18:24.819 But of course, it makes sense that they were listening through a politically um divisive lens. 01:18:24.979 --> 01:18:25.219 Yeah. 01:18:25.379 --> 01:18:32.500 And so just learning to say, if you go back and listen, you'll hear that I've been saying this since 2005 when I first became the preacher here. 01:18:32.579 --> 01:18:34.339 This is who we are, this is what we do. 01:18:34.500 --> 01:18:40.019 And I don't know how much success you have, except it's a path to sanity. 01:18:40.419 --> 01:18:56.819 Well, no, and it's it's also tremendously helpful in the sense that uh the core issues for following Jesus are um his message, his gospel, the availability of life in the kingdom, the offer of a life of discipleship. 01:18:56.979 --> 01:18:59.939 Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself. 01:19:00.259 --> 01:19:12.819 But I would feel the pressure from people in the culture, pick whatever hot button topic that you want to pick around sexuality or uh uh reproductive rights, abortion, any of that kind of stuff. 01:19:12.979 --> 01:19:19.619 And people will be like, no, if you're the leader, you have to have complete clarity and a hundred percent conviction. 01:19:19.779 --> 01:19:20.099 Yeah. 01:19:20.259 --> 01:19:26.579 And it's like, there's lots of issues where it's like in my most honest self, I think that's quite complicated. 01:19:26.659 --> 01:19:26.899 Yeah. 01:19:27.059 --> 01:19:28.019 I have lots of questions. 01:19:28.099 --> 01:19:29.059 I'll read and study. 01:19:29.139 --> 01:19:36.659 I'm not dumb, but uh uh I'll have uh there'll be many, many layers to that uh topic for me. 01:19:36.819 --> 01:19:50.739 And then when you get to legislation, I'm not a politician, so the history of legislation is its own craft, yeah, and often has so, but but I'll feel this pressure to say, no, if you're a good leader, yeah, pick the topic. 01:19:50.899 --> 01:19:57.299 The more hot button the topic it is, the more emotion people have around it, the more the demand for clarity. 01:19:57.619 --> 01:20:08.099 And I will feel like I have to manufacture clarity, yeah, or I have to feel like a weak leader, which is a horrible feeling, rather than no, no, no. 01:20:08.339 --> 01:20:15.379 My call is to point to him and a life of discipleship to him and clarity around the kingdom. 01:20:15.460 --> 01:20:33.139 And then there'll be lots of topics that are out there that uh I'll do my best to think

about and speak about appropriately, but I won't get sucked into the illusion that uh I have to be uh the clarity definer on issues that are not central to who we are. 01:20:33.460 --> 01:20:37.859 I I had uh during COVID, I had a phone call from a very angry congregant. 01:20:38.099 --> 01:20:47.699 Um, and she had a very strong opinion about COVID and vaccines, and I don't remember the name of the horse medicine, but there was like an alternative option that some people were believing in. 01:20:47.939 --> 01:20:54.259 And she was defining my faith and the faith of our church through the lens of how we handled the issue. 01:20:54.419 --> 01:20:55.059 Yeah, that issue. 01:20:55.939 --> 01:20:58.339 And I was trying to listen to her and use curiosity. 01:20:58.819 --> 01:21:03.299 Fortunately, you had that veterinarian school experience to know about the horse medicine. 01:21:03.779 --> 01:21:04.819 Right back to the cockroach. 01:21:05.059 --> 01:21:09.939 And so I'm listening to her, I'm trying to disarm her, I'm asking curious questions, it wasn't getting anywhere. 01:21:10.099 --> 01:21:12.019 And so I thought I'll just define myself. 01:21:12.099 --> 01:21:17.379 And I wasn't being a smart aleck, I just said, I think you're mistaking me for an epidemiologist. 01:21:17.699 --> 01:21:18.979 I'm a pastor. 01:21:19.939 --> 01:21:27.219 I'm a pastor, I don't know anything about epidemiology, which is why I try to trust the people that are doing their best to figure this out. 01:21:27.379 --> 01:21:30.579 Yes, and she wouldn't lay down and she just kept coming at me. 01:21:30.739 --> 01:21:39.699 And this is an unusual move, but I've done this a few times where I said, I don't think you're getting the hint you're not an epidemiologist either. 01:21:40.019 --> 01:21:42.099 And of course, she did not like that. 01:21:42.339 --> 01:21:42.659 Right. 01:21:42.819 --> 01:21:43.139 Yep. 01:21:43.299 --> 01:21:49.219 And uh that's life, but she didn't say, that's a wonderful point because I'm gonna do it. 01:21:49.379 --> 01:21:50.339 I'll wait for the next sermon. 01:21:50.419 --> 01:21:54.899 Yeah, but better that than me trying to convince, convince, convince, convince. 01:21:54.979 --> 01:21:55.139 Yep. 01:21:55.299 --> 01:21:56.739 Just to find myself. 01:21:57.059 --> 01:22:02.259 So a couple of things that I think may be helpful for just faith leaders in general. 01:22:02.419 --> 01:22:12.500 Number one, we know from Genesis chapter three that when humans are anxious, our mind fixates on another person rather than on ourself. 01:22:12.979 --> 01:22:14.179 So Adam and Eve. 01:22:14.419 --> 01:22:15.059 It's so good. 01:22:15.219 --> 01:22:15.859 You know, blame. 01:22:16.099 --> 01:22:18.179 Like God's like, Adam, what's the deal? 01:22:18.339 --> 01:22:19.859 Well, it's that woman that you made, you know. 01:22:20.579 --> 01:22:25.939 So we always think of blame, but I find it helpful to not just think of blame, but to think of fixating. 01:22:26.179 --> 01:22:26.739 Fixating. 01:22:26.899 --> 01:22:35.539 And if I have lost sight of myself, yeah, and I'm now fixated, like this this woman, if I'm too in her head, yes, I've lost myself. 01:22:35.699 --> 01:22:39.139 Yes, yes, and I've certainly lost awareness of God, and now I'm trying to win. 01:22:39.299 --> 01:22:39.939 Yeah. 01:22:40.419 --> 01:22:43.299 No, this this phone call was a lose phone call. 01:22:43.379 --> 01:22:47.539 So how quickly can I lose and get on with my life and keep her dignity intact? 01:22:47.699 --> 01:22:51.299 I'm not looking to but her job was to try to defeat me, right? 01:22:51.379 --> 01:22:52.500 That's what she's trying to do. 01:22:52.659 --> 01:22:53.139 Yes. 01:22:53.379 --> 01:22:55.460 That's not a game I'm willing to play. 01:22:55.539 --> 01:22:56.019 Yep. 01:22:56.339 --> 01:22:59.939 So, Genesis 3, we tend to fixate on the other. 01:23:00.179 --> 01:23:08.579 So if you have an anxious leader, the temptation is to fixate on that person and what they're doing that's bad or what they need to change. 01:23:08.899 --> 01:23:12.979 Systems theory always teaches us to put the attention back on ourselves. 01:23:13.219 --> 01:23:22.500 So when I'm teaching workshops in church staffs or organizations, I tell them the number one asset you have to offer the kingdom of God is a well self. 01:23:22.819 --> 01:23:25.539 That is your number one gift to God's kingdom. 01:23:25.699 --> 01:23:26.339 A well self. 01:23:26.419 --> 01:23:26.899 A well-self. 01:23:27.139 --> 01:23:28.179 That is your best gift. 01:23:28.419 --> 01:23:31.859 And people say, wait a minute, what about Jesus? 01:23:32.019 --> 01:23:42.179 You know, and I'll say, Hey, if we're playing poker and I bet you well self and you saw my well self and raised me Jesus, and you're like, I've got him, because I use Jesus. 01:23:42.500 --> 01:23:50.979 I'm pushing every chip I have on well self because we've all experienced a Christian leader who is proclaiming Jesus when they're not well. 01:23:51.059 --> 01:23:51.619 Yeah. 01:23:51.939 --> 01:23:55.139 And the damage it does is colossal. 01:23:55.379 --> 01:24:05.619 Whereas if I take responsibility for my spiritual health, which is peace, freedom, and love, does my body believe what my head believes about peace, freedom, and love right now? 01:24:06.339 --> 01:24:12.579 When that lady calls, can I actually experience freedom in my nervous system while she's coming at me? 01:24:12.739 --> 01:24:15.460 Now, sometimes I cannot, but sometimes I can. 01:24:15.859 --> 01:24:20.899 That to me is the task of every Christian leader is to be well. 01:24:21.059 --> 01:24:24.339 And that's the gift that your people most need. 01:24:25.139 --> 01:24:34.979 Because if you're well and you have power, now we get back to freedmen with this innovative outside the box thinker who can thrive because they're no threat to me as a leader anymore. 01:24:35.139 --> 01:24:36.339 They're now an asset. 01:24:36.659

--> 01:24:52.419 There's a uh book that I like a lot by George McDonald, the old Scottish author, Thomas Wingfold cured about a pastor who doesn't know what he believes, and he finds kind of a spiritual mentor, and at one point the question his mentor asks him is why did Jesus come into the world? 01:24:52.819 --> 01:24:56.259 And his initial response is to save the world. 01:24:57.219 --> 01:25:08.019 And his mentor says, No, that that was one aspect of it, but there was something more fundamental, and it takes a while for the guy to discover, and what he comes to finally is he came to do the will of his father. 01:25:10.019 --> 01:25:16.099 And as you speak about being a well self, I think that's another word for obedience. 01:25:16.259 --> 01:25:16.500 Yeah. 01:25:17.219 --> 01:25:27.699 It's becoming the kind of person who is obeying and is actually able to obey to do the will of the father, and that has to to obey uh is the starting point. 01:25:27.859 --> 01:25:41.139 And to think that I could present Jesus while not living a life of uh emotionally healthy, honest, authentic obedience to him, where I'm doing the his will with that woman on the call. 01:25:41.299 --> 01:25:41.619 Yeah. 01:25:41.859 --> 01:25:49.219 It's like, no, I can say certain words then, but I'm not actually presenting him with my life. 01:25:49.299 --> 01:25:57.139 Yeah, there is no way to plow around obedience to him by claiming that I am making a presentation of him. 01:25:57.379 --> 01:25:57.699 Yeah. 01:25:57.939 --> 01:25:58.739 So uh uh. 01:25:59.619 --> 01:26:09.219 Yeah, if if we're talking specifically to Christian leaders, that I think the top challenge is we're God's child and we're God's employee. 01:26:09.299 --> 01:26:09.699 Yeah. 01:26:09.939 --> 01:26:13.460 One's identity, one's vocation, we get him twisted. 01:26:13.539 --> 01:26:13.859 Yeah. 01:26:14.099 --> 01:26:20.500 So that was my kind of burnout journey was realizing I'm relating to God more as employee than child. 01:26:20.659 --> 01:26:25.939 No, and it's like, okay, now on that phone call with that woman, how do you obey Jesus in that moment? 01:26:26.099 --> 01:26:26.739 Yeah. 01:26:27.059 --> 01:26:28.979 So one more question. 01:26:29.139 --> 01:26:38.899 I mean, this could go for hours, but one more question specifically about kind of differentiation, selfhood, being well, and the culture. 01:26:39.139 --> 01:26:43.619 Um, we live in such an electronic online screen-dominated culture right now. 01:26:43.779 --> 01:26:45.859 Tons of stuff being written about this. 01:26:46.259 --> 01:26:57.299 Um, how do you connect those thoughts about being a differentiated self with uh a culture that is constantly clamoring to get its hooks into you? 01:26:57.619 --> 01:26:57.859 Good. 01:26:57.939 --> 01:26:58.179 Yeah. 01:26:58.339 --> 01:26:58.579 Yeah. 01:26:58.739 --> 01:27:03.059 I I think the more anxious the culture, the more I work on being well. 01:27:03.539 --> 01:27:05.139 So that just is a

general rule. 01:27:05.299 --> 01:27:10.500 If I'm in a very reactive situation, I'm working harder on being centered. 01:27:10.659 --> 01:27:18.259 Um, I I also want to say, John, like I know about myself, I have a way of communicating that makes things sound simpler than they are. 01:27:18.500 --> 01:27:22.739 So I probably get this right four or five out of ten times. 01:27:22.899 --> 01:27:28.419 And then when I'm first starting one or two, when I'm training people in this, I tell them, if you can do this two out of ten times, that would be a good thing. 01:27:28.579 --> 01:27:29.059 Oh, that's great. 01:27:29.139 --> 01:27:30.179 That will take so much pressure off. 01:27:30.500 --> 01:27:33.779 Yeah, I just don't want people to get the impression that like I'm some kind of yoda. 01:27:33.939 --> 01:27:35.939 No, I'm anxious every day. 01:27:36.179 --> 01:27:41.619 And because I teach this, I'm better at it because I'm spending so much time teaching others. 01:27:42.339 --> 01:27:43.139 I mean, you're a mess. 01:27:43.219 --> 01:27:44.099 I know you, you're a mess. 01:27:44.179 --> 01:27:45.299 So that's good. 01:27:45.379 --> 01:27:45.619 Yeah. 01:27:45.859 --> 01:27:56.339 Um, and then the other thing I would say is before we get to like specifics on culture, everybody can take responsibility to relax into God's presence eight or ten times a day. 01:27:57.539 --> 01:27:59.379 And maybe you have to calendar it at first. 01:27:59.539 --> 01:28:01.299 We call it microhabits. 01:28:01.539 --> 01:28:06.339 Just develop like a metaphorical grab bag of ways. 01:28:06.579 --> 01:28:06.899 I love that. 01:28:07.139 --> 01:28:09.539 Yeah, just of ways, and you know I chatted about this before. 01:28:09.619 --> 01:28:11.460 It's still my favorite reset tool. 01:28:12.019 --> 01:28:16.339 And maybe it involves scripture and prayer, our more traditional disciplines. 01:28:16.579 --> 01:28:21.699 Um, our family, every May, a family of owls moves into our neighborhood. 01:28:21.779 --> 01:28:22.019 Uh huh. 01:28:22.179 --> 01:28:23.460 And they stay till about October. 01:28:24.099 --> 01:28:26.579 I go looking for those owls several times a day. 01:28:26.739 --> 01:28:27.219 That's so cool. 01:28:27.460 --> 01:28:29.619 Because an owl is a creation from God. 01:28:29.699 --> 01:28:29.939 Yep. 01:28:30.099 --> 01:28:32.819 And these are great horned owls, and there's babies. 01:28:33.299 --> 01:28:36.579 And I can just stare at that and give thanks to God for an owl. 01:28:36.739 --> 01:28:37.139 Yeah. 01:28:37.379 --> 01:28:39.539 Um, that takes like a minute. 01:28:39.779 --> 01:28:42.500 Um, I hold my wife's hand every day. 01:28:42.579 --> 01:28:45.059 Uh and my wife is a gift from God for me. 01:28:45.139 --> 01:28:50.500 And so when I'm holding her hand, I'm remembering God's goodness, and it just resets me. 01:28:50.579 --> 01:28:55.859 So I just want to like let people know this is not technical work, it's just intentional. 01:28:56.019 --> 01:29:07.460 And if you kind of set yourself like a 30-day goal to go on a hunt for God's goodness, everywhere you see God's goodness in your life, write it down and try to find the ones that just take one to ten minutes. 01:29:07.539 --> 01:29:07.859 Yeah. 01:29:08.099 --> 01:29:09.539 Now you've got your grab bag. 01:29:09.699 --> 01:29:10.019 Yes. 01:29:10.179 --> 01:29:10.659 Um, yeah. 01:29:10.819 --> 01:29:18.579 So on the way over here, uh, my wife and I listened to Paul Simon because music and rhythm and melody, and he's one of the they're all gifts from God. 01:29:18.819 --> 01:29:20.739 God made humans to create music. 01:29:21.460 --> 01:29:28.579 Um one of the interesting things for me that surprised me is how much I've reduced my social media in the last six weeks. 01:29:29.139 --> 01:29:32.259 I used to go on Twitter to practice my reactivity. 01:29:32.659 --> 01:29:34.339 Uh so I would, it's wild. 01:29:34.419 --> 01:29:40.659 I would like you were trying to practice not being reactive, or or were you trying to indulge in reactivity, or it just came out automatically? 01:29:40.739 --> 01:29:42.659 I I'm a bit we call it brave practice. 01:29:42.739 --> 01:29:44.259 Uh you might call it exposure therapy. 01:29:44.339 --> 01:29:44.419 Yes. 01:29:44.819 --> 01:29:45.460 What triggers you? 01:29:45.539 --> 01:29:45.779 Yes. 01:29:46.019 --> 01:29:49.139 Put yourself in that situation and pay attention to what's going on. 01:29:49.379 --> 01:30:01.219 And Twitter triggered me because one of my false needs is to put someone in their place, have the last word, and there's nothing like Twitter to make me want to do oftentimes correct and smarmy. 01:30:01.460 --> 01:30:04.179 When I'm not well, I get a little smarmy and there's an edge. 01:30:04.259 --> 01:30:04.500 Yeah. 01:30:04.739 --> 01:30:10.019 So I would go on Twitter every day and I'd scroll and feel my nervous system get activated. 01:30:10.259 --> 01:30:17.939 I'm not proud of this, John, but many times I would have a comment drafted before I came to my senses and hit delete. 01:30:18.419 --> 01:30:19.299 I got close. 01:30:20.179 --> 01:30:26.019 Um, and one of the broad false needs of humans is knowing things, knowing the answer to things. 01:30:26.579 --> 01:30:33.539 And I think again back to Genesis, I think we were taught in Genesis humans are not supposed to know as much as we want to know. 01:30:33.699 --> 01:30:40.500 And I think we live in an age where we know too much, and our nervous systems can't handle what we know. 01:30:40.659 --> 01:30:40.979 Yeah. 01:30:41.299 --> 01:30:53.299 Uh, when I think about like one of my all-time favorite conversations I've ever heard was on this formation podcast, you and Gary Haugen, uh, and you talk about somebody who's given his life to combating evil. 01:30:53.859 --> 01:30:59.299 When I think about my heroes who are making a difference in the world, they do one thing. 01:30:59.779 --> 01:31:02.259 So for Gary and IJM, human

trafficking. 01:31:02.339 --> 01:31:02.979 Yeah. 01:31:03.460 --> 01:31:08.739 And I think of other heroes like my uh Christine and Nick Cain, also human trafficking. 01:31:09.139 --> 01:31:14.579 Lisa and I have dear friends, and for them it's all about foster kids getting adopted. 01:31:14.899 --> 01:31:24.259 But I think for those of us who aren't in the one thing, we tend to read the news on 50 things and feel guilty, like, oh, I should be doing more. 01:31:24.739 --> 01:31:31.219 But I think the way forward for a Christian is to pick the one thing that we're gonna join and and help with. 01:31:31.379 --> 01:31:39.460 Um, but yeah, I just think humans are uh spending too much time activated trying to know everything that's going on. 01:31:39.779 --> 01:31:40.419 Yeah, yeah. 01:31:40.579 --> 01:31:43.379 And was there anything in particular that made you say nope, I'm gonna get off? 01:31:43.460 --> 01:31:49.379 Or is it just kind of gradual realizing that uh that time was creating more reactivity in you? 01:31:49.779 --> 01:31:54.899 Uh there were two people on Twitter that I don't want to name because I don't want to give attention to them. 01:31:55.059 --> 01:31:55.379 Sure. 01:31:55.539 --> 01:31:59.939 One really enjoys finding church scandals and publicizing them. 01:32:00.659 --> 01:32:14.739 And uh I've had a number of people who are precious to me end up on that blog, and I tend to comment to try to uh give a counter testimony because even when there's a scandal, there's always more story, these people are human, you know, there's a lot there. 01:32:15.379 --> 01:32:23.779 And I found when I interacted in that that the algorithm suppressed my comment and amplified hers, and it just felt like a losing battle. 01:32:23.939 --> 01:32:24.099 Right. 01:32:24.259 --> 01:32:26.579 And it was to a magnitude of like 10,000. 01:32:26.739 --> 01:32:26.979 Yeah. 01:32:27.139 --> 01:32:40.019 Um, and then the other one is uh somebody who proclaims to be a follower of Christ, who's such an extreme right-wing Christian nationalist, and I've just watched her get more and more and more following and radicalizing people. 01:32:40.179 --> 01:32:53.859 And again, I've I've also interacted with her, and the same thing wins, same thing happened, and I just realized there's a part of me that thought somebody should stick around, not that I'm the only one, but I should stick around to bring a countervoice, but no one sees it. 01:32:53.939 --> 01:32:54.179 Yeah. 01:32:54.339 --> 01:32:57.619 So that that was the moment that I thought it's time to be done. 01:32:57.779 --> 01:32:58.419 Yeah. 01:32:58.739 --> 01:32:59.939 So, last question. 01:33:00.019 --> 01:33:02.019 There's so many questions we didn't get around to. 01:33:02.179 --> 01:33:03.219 Can we do this again sometime? 01:33:03.699 --> 01:33:04.500 Oh, I'd love it. 01:33:04.579 --> 01:33:05.299 This would be fun. 01:33:05.539 --> 01:33:05.859 Thank you. 01:33:06.099 --> 01:33:06.419 Thank you. 01:33:06.579 --> 01:33:07.539 Thanks for having me on. 01:33:07.699 --> 01:33:08.339 Yeah. 01:33:11.219 --> 01:33:14.659 Are you gonna This is personal? 01:33:14.979 --> 01:33:18.419 Are you gonna get to a certain age and call it become old? 01:33:18.899 --> 01:33:20.419 That's a great idea.