009. Everything You Need to Know About the Next Generation ft. Kara Powell의 전체 녹취록

we're doing it? 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:57.919 Why does it matter so much in this moment? 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:03.680 I actually want to start with I was thinking about this, um, your call. 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:04.479 Yeah. 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:11.439 Uh we work in kind of adjacent fields, and as a pastor, there's this thing called a call. 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:11.680 Yeah. 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:13.840 It plays out real differently with different people. 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.680 I grew up in Baptist circles where I was supposed to have one experience I did not. 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:18.159 Yeah. 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:24.800 And uh, but I thought I I'd love to hear because you occupy such a unique and interesting role. 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:25.280 Yeah. 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:27.120 What was it in your journey? 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:27.439 Yeah. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.159 Did you wake up one morning knowing this is what I want to do? 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:31.759 How how did that journey happen for you? 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.080 Well, definitely not waking up one morning and knowing what God was calling me to. 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.199 It was a process. 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:42.400 So in 11th grade, I ran for student body president and lost. 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:44.960 And you're laughing, but it was traumatic for me. 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:46.800 I ran for student body president and lost also. 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:53.120 I lost even earlier than we're part of the club of people who have run for public office and then lost. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.280 And that's just, you know, publicly embarrassing. 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:55.680 Yeah. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:59.039 But my youth pastor and his wife, I was very close to them. 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.680 And my youth pastor said at that point, I think God's calling you to youth ministry. 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.520 And my parents are both attorneys, and I had seen the good. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:08.800 Yeah, they met at law school. 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:09.039 Wow. 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.759 And I had seen the good that they had done as attorneys. 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:14.879 So I thought, no, I'm going to go be an attorney and change the world that way. 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:15.360 Yes. 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:22.560 But through a weird fluke in 12th grade, I ended up volunteering at our church to get credit from school. 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.040 And, you know, the very first job I did. 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.079 Volunteered at church to get credit from academic credit. 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.920 Yes, I got I needed to pick up an elective and I was able to work this. 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.639 So the first thing I did was clean the youth kitchen. 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.079 Uh that was, I still remember those smells from the youth kitchen. 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:46.160 And then I worked on uh the weekly bulletin, which we used to use copy machines and remember clip art books and white out and tape. 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.800 For people who don't know, bulletin was this like printed out thing at church that you would learn everything on. 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.639 For some reason, churches call them a bulletin. 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:53.040 I don't know what. 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:53.759 Yes, yes. 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:55.920 And a copy machine is something that makes copies. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.920 We don't even use that all that much anymore. 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:06.720 Um but uh and and I and in the process of spending more time at church, I did feel like, well, maybe God is calling me to youth ministry. 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:08.319 A couple obstacles though. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.319 Number one, I had never seen a woman doing full-time youth ministry. 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:19.199 I was in a denomination that was egalitarian, very pro-women, but I just never seen a woman doing it full-time. 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:32.319 Well, God solved that problem because while at a youth ministry event, I met a youth pastor who, as I was washing my hands in the bathroom, said, Do you think God's calling you to youth ministry? 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:35.759 This stranger says, Do you think God's calling you to youth ministry? 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:36.319 In the bathroom. 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.040 In the bathroom. 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:37.439 Yes. 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.319 At Solana Beach Presbyterian Church in San Diego. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:40.800 Wow. 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:42.480 Uh, because I grew up in San Diego. 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:42.720 Okay. 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.480 So all of a sudden, here's where where a woman named Roberta Heston is was the lead pastor. 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:48.000 Exactly, exactly. 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:49.040 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:55.759 So all of a sudden, God provided this woman, this full-time woman who I met with multiple times over the years. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:01.920 But then the last thing that was missing is I really wanted a sense that God was calling me to youth ministry. 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.000 It wasn't just what I liked, it wasn't just what other people saw in me. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:17.920 Um, so I I I went to Stanford undergrad, and just last week, I was, because I was in the Bay Area, I was driving on El Camino Real, you know it, I do, uh, by the Stanford Shopping Center. 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:31.040 And what happened on October 11th, 1988, when I was a sophomore in college, is I was driving into the Stanford shopping mall to get a birthday gift for my mom, and all of a sudden I started crying. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:37.839 And I'm not someone who just bursts into tears for no reason, uh, especially not then, still not now. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:42.639 And so I pulled my little black Toyota into a parking spot and I was like, God, what are you doing? 00:06:42.800 -->

00:06:50.639 And I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I've never heard God speak audibly, but I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I'm breaking your heart for the needs of young people. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.079 Not just I'm calling you to, I'm not sure. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.560 No, I'm breaking your heart for the needs of young people. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:01.839 So I went up into the foothills and prayed for a couple more hours. 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:07.759 And that night I went out to frozen yogurt with some friends from college and said, I think God called me to youth ministry. 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:08.240 Wow. 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:17.360 So my journey was really a process of youth pastor and his wife investing in me, meeting a woman, doing it, which was really key. 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.120 And then finally, this you know, supernatural Holy Spirit moment. 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:22.959 So yeah, I love telling that story, John. 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:24.160 So thank you for asking me. 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:29.839 What's very striking to me as you tell that is that the word that would come is breaking your heart. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:30.240 Yeah. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:31.839 How did you understand that? 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.360 That doesn't sound like, oh, goody, I get to have my heart broken. 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:36.560 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.120 Well how how did you how did you interpret that? 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:48.319 Well, uh, the passage that was really prominent, and as a mission and theology faculty member at Fuller Seminary, I should know the reference, but I'm a little loose here. 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:56.720 I think it's uh Luke 9, 36, something like that, where Jesus had compassion because he saw the crowd were like sheep without a shepherd. 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:57.120 Yes. 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:04.319 And my understanding is that the Greek word there is like so moved, even internally and physically. 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:10.160 And I was looking at that passage about that time, and that's kind of how it all connected for me. 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.839 That like how I feel about young people, it's visceral. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:20.480 And still today, you know, when I drive by a high school, when I drive by a college, I just want to stop and talk to young people. 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:25.600 So I love young people and I love adults who work with young people, and I love talking about young people. 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.680 So I well, how do we get to do that today? 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:33.679 So uh to talk with, be with, work with young people is one thing, yeah. 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:46.799 But then uh part of where that's led for you is to research and to lead research, which is uh a little different thing than hands-on involvement connection. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:51.679 You are at the forefront of that as much as anybody that I know. 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:53.120 How did that happen? 00:08:53.279 --> 00:09:03.919 From I want uh a heart for young people to I want to find out yeah what are the best minds, what is the best data, what is the best research, how did that shift happen? 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.320 Yeah. 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.000 Well, I love education. 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:14.960 And uh so I got my MDiv and I got my PhD in practical theology and I was teaching full time at Azusek Pacific University in Los Angeles. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.480 I don't think I knew you taught anything. 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:17.360 I did, I did. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.679 That's where I that was my first academic role. 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:19.919 Yeah. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:39.679 And then Fuller was getting ready to start this new research center that was gonna listen to the needs of the church and the world and then do research to respond to those needs and then translate that research into practical resources, which A is basically the practical theology methodology that I'd been studying in my PhD program. 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:50.799 And B, I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this center is gonna stand with one foot in the life of real life, young people, families, churches, and one foot in the world of world-class research. 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:52.879 Like that's where I want to stand. 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:53.200 Yeah. 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:58.480 So a friend of mine who was a faculty member on at the time said, like, Kara, I think you should apply for this role. 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:00.879 And that was like 22 years ago. 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:10.480 Um, so and I I just love the idea of listening to what the church and world need, doing really good research, and then turning that research into a practical tool. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:10.879 Wow. 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:12.720 So wow, perfect fit. 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.039 Yeah, I I yeah, I kind of think so. 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:16.879 So yeah, thank you. 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:19.039 I want to come back to your initial statement. 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:29.600 If there's one thing that you'd want anybody who's listening to you to come away with, yeah, it is that young people want to be listened to, they want to be understood, but without being judged. 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.679 Where does that come from? 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:32.960 Why is that so important? 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:33.440 Yeah. 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:41.120 Well, I think developmentally, you know, this is not the first generation of teenagers and young adults to feel that way, to want to be listened to. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:49.440 But I think we as adults, uh, we've been especially critical of young people now and in the recent past. 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:56.000 You know, there was a lot of criticism about Gen Z, millennials, you know, how lazy entitled they were, etc. 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:03.039 So I think young people feel like adults and even

the church has been finger pointing at them. 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.519 And, you know, they want adults who are not going to judge them but journey with them. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:08.000 Yeah. 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:12.480 And we are just now doing a new research project on Gen Alpha. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:19.039 So, you know, after Gen Z comes Gen Alpha, which we're defining as those born 2010 and later. 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:21.360 So think 16-year-olds and younger. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:28.480 And we've surveyed about 3,000 of them and we've asked them what do you most want in an adult you trust? 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.519 And what do you most want in the faith community? 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:37.679 And at the top of the list is we want adults who will listen without judging. 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.480 We want adults who are a safe place for us. 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:48.639 So I think young people feel so judged in so many other spheres that they're just hungry for that uh in general. 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.799 And what a great opportunity for the church. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:58.080 I mean, we have the chance to, I would say, earn back young people's trust by how we listen to them. 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:05.279 And uh I'm thinking about that topic of sensitivity to being judged. 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.000 Yeah. 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:13.840 Um is there something around um being young and generational differences that feeds into that? 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:24.799 Or is that just a reflection of the fact that as sinful people we are so judgmental and people in power can be most judgmental and people who are young don't have it? 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:26.080 Uh yes and yes. 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:44.399 I mean, I I think it's it's everything that you've just said, but I think as the pace of change and cultural change accelerates, yeah, it gets harder for us as adults to keep up with youth culture, which I think makes us even more makes me more prone to be judgmental because I don't understand it. 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:47.440 It feels even more foreign, even more distant for me. 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:55.919 Well, and I wonder, even too, because I'm older than you, and part of what I'm aware of, I was talking with our team yesterday about stuff that they're watching, and I'm not watching what they're watching. 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:56.240 Yeah. 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.759 And so I don't even know that I would have articulated this or at the time, but a part of what I'm feeling is I'm not cool. 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:02.159 Yeah. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:02.879 Oh, yeah. 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.279 And cool is such a thing, and it's kind of like the older you get, the less cool you are. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:07.759 Yeah. 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:12.960 So judging becomes a way to deal with my sense of inadequacy and not being a good idea. 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:14.240 My insecurity, totally. 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:14.720 Oh, yeah. 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:21.279 I mean, my kids are 20, 23, and 25, and they would say, just the way that I say cool reveals that I'm not cool. 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.440 Like, you know, in fact, somewhere they're kind of cringing just because I've now said it here with you. 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:26.960 So, so yeah, absolutely. 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.080 We cut become aware of our lack of coolness. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:35.679 Uh, and I think that can make us more insecure, more prone to withdraw or to judge. 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:44.559 But, you know, we had a senior pastor tell us during the course of our research with some previous research, that for young people, warm is the new cool. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.639 Oh, that's beautiful. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:47.519 Isn't that good? 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.639 Because temperature-wise, it looks the opposite. 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:51.279 Exactly. 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.399 And and any of us can be warm. 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.879 You know, for for people who are watching or listening to this who are cool, awesome. 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.440 They can just keep being their cool selves. 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.200 But for the rest of us, we don't have to try to be cool. 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.320 In fact, when we try, young people pick that up. 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:14.080 What they want is they want us to be real, they want us to be warm, they want us to listen, they want us to care. 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.600 Now, I will say, sometimes young people don't always show that. 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:25.279 You know, it's not like the nearest young person at our church or our grandchild or our niece-nephew is saying, Oh, please build a relationship with me verbally. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:36.480 So sometimes we have to push through what can look like apathy or even caution from young people, but fundamentally, young people they want, they want that warmth. 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.919 I I was listening not too long ago to a talk that Dallas Willard did, and he was talking about the concept of cool. 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:42.240 Yeah. 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:43.519 And where does that come from? 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:44.720 Why is this so central? 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.639 And he actually went back to the fall. 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:54.320 And that after the fall, one of the consequences was now you will work, you will labor by the sweat of your brow. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.120 Yeah. 00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:00.720 And so sweat is a symptom of fallenness, inadequacy. 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.039 So we all want to look like no sweat. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:04.399 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:10.000 But I'm cool because sweat is an indication that I'm fallen, I'm inadequate, I'm wrong. 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.159 But actually, that's the truth about me. 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.039 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.120 Oh, oh,

that's really profound, John. 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:24.720 You know, as we were talking, I was thinking about a dad whose teenage daughter told him, you know, you don't need to come uh to my games anymore. 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.120 She played soccer, you don't need to come to my games anymore. 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:28.399 I don't want you to come. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:33.039 And he listened to her because it seemed like she was pushing away. 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:34.159 So he didn't come. 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.559 And she admitted to him some years later, you know, I really wish you had showed up. 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:39.039 Wow. 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.320 I really wish you had come. 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:40.720 Wow. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:48.960 So it, you know, I need to remember that as a parent, you, as a parent, grandparent, it's we are just building relationships with young people in our neighborhood, in our church. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.919 Again, they're not always going to have the welcome mat out. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:57.120 Um, you know, there's a season where as a parent you show up at your kids' school and they give you kind of the head nod. 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:58.799 You know, you don't even get a hello. 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:00.879 If you're lucky, you get a head nod. 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:01.440 Yep. 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:12.799 Um, yeah, but and that can happen when they're not even our kids, but showing up, being consistent, being uh, you know, kind of a steady force in their life. 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:22.320 No, you know, we have grandkids and we're already experiencing at a certain age when they're little and you come up, it's like, oh my god, you're gonna be the grandest day of my life. 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:22.879 Totally. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.879 And then at a certain age, and it comes sooner than I would have thought. 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:27.519 Yeah. 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.840 If we're alone, there can still be that very warm response. 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:33.759 But if there's other peers around, yeah. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:34.960 Right, exactly. 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:36.559 Yeah. 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:43.360 I'm thinking uh about a church that we've been working with uh that we always recommend with listening. 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:50.480 That's not just true with individual relationships, but churches, you know, as you want to engage teenagers, young adults, have you actually listened to them? 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.960 So there was this church that said, okay, we really want to better engage our teenagers. 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:59.200 It was a church of about two, three hundred uh near Fuller in Los Angeles. 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.880 And so the associate pastor and one of the deacons, they did a couple focus groups with teenagers. 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:05.839 Anybody can do this. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.920 Any adult listening or watching can do this. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.359 You know, what do you like about our church? 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.400 When do you feel closest to the adults in our church? 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.160 When do you feel like you really belong? 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:23.200 And what the young people said was we love it when people from our church show up at our events, when they show up at our soccer game, when they show up at our play. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:23.599 Wow. 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:24.880 Um, that's what we love. 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:30.400 And so the pastor and the deacon, they came up with something really wild and creative. 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.400 They created a Google Doc. 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.000 Wow, new technology, so sophisticated. 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.880 Yeah, I know. 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.160 You heard it here first. 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:50.799 A Google Doc that parents and stepparents and caregivers and kids themselves could enter their events in so that youth ministry volunteers, you know, it's part-time youth pastor, three or four volunteers, could show up at an event. 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:52.319 Well, that went so well. 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:58.960 Adults, these volunteers started showing up that the pastor and the deacon thought, well, why don't we do this church wide? 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:11.680 So every Sunday there's a slide in the announcements that reveals it, you know, that indicates what young people are doing, who's got a game, who's got a play, who's got a Girl Scout event, whatever it might be. 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:20.240 Now, think about what it means to be a young person in that worship service and you're seeing yourself and your friends and just young people highlighted like that. 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:21.839 I mean, what do you feel about? 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:23.279 Okay, I belong here. 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:24.480 This is my home. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:34.720 But then also, adults are spontaneously showing up at kids' events and even becoming, you know, when you mentioned Ron Ronnie of it, as you said, talking about being a grandparent. 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:35.039 Yep. 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:40.799 Because especially senior adults, there is a special tenderness between senior adults and young people. 00:18:41.039 --> 00:19:01.440 So the pastor who was telling us this story uh about his church, he had he had gone to uh a 16-year-old soccer game, and he's standing on the sidelines talking to her parents, and he looks down the sidelines, and there's an 81-year-old sitting in his lawn chair, just there to cheer her on. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:01.920 Wow. 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:15.519 Now, you know, I'm not suggesting that's a magic silver bullet for every church, but I love that idea of okay, we listened to young people and we heard what they said, and then we figured out how we could do what they said. 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.759 And in this

case, it was showing up literally. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.319 As simple as showing up, exactly. 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:31.359 And and the senior adults, I mean, they they want more to do, they want opportunities to want and need connection, exactly, uh, although sometimes push it away because it's often more effort. 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:31.920 Totally. 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.880 But then when it's given, it's like, oh yeah, that's what life is about. 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:35.359 Absolutely. 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:36.480 I matter to somebody. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.200 Hence the popularity of Theo of Golden, if you've read that novel. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:43.680 Okay, yeah. 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.839 I mean, how anybody can make a difference, and especially people who are senior adults. 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:49.519 There's there's some amazing opportunities. 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.160 Yeah. 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:58.559 Is there a reason why showing up uh to listen without judging is particularly important in this moment? 00:19:58.880 --> 00:19:58.960 Yeah. 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:00.640 Let me unpack that a little bit more. 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:07.119 You were talking about uh research with millennials, uh, Gen Z, Gen Alpha. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.240 I'll have you say a little bit more about how we carve generations up. 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:10.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:12.079 And why does that matter? 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:13.920 Folks will sometimes lose track of that. 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.319 Yeah. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.599 But you've been doing research now for a couple of decades. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:17.839 Yeah. 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.519 And a big question is um, how do things change? 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.079 Yeah. 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.960 You know, how do cohorts differ from each other? 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:25.519 Yeah. 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.279 And then uh how how do they remain the same? 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:30.319 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.599 And uh so say a word about that. 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:44.319 What the generate how the generations get sliced up, uh, and what shifts and what changes stays the same, and is just showing up, listening without judging for some reason particularly important now. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:45.839 Yeah, yeah, great question. 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.599 So, you know, generational cohorts, they're a little arbitrary. 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:58.240 You know, but researchers kind of look at trends, and it's not like somebody born December 31st of one year is so different than somebody born January 1st of the next year, et cetera. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:07.039 But as we've looked at how others are grouping it, we've landed on 2010 as the delineation between Gen Z and Gen Alpha. 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.839 Now, let's start with what's different. 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.759 Okay, you asked about what's different and what's the same. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:12.720 Okay, here's what's different. 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:18.400 Think about what this cohort of young people, your grandkids, are navigating post-pandemic. 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:22.640 So many mental health struggles. 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:31.039 You know, we've never had a cohort of young people who has navigated stress and anxiety and depression like this. 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:37.279 Um, you know, I don't know a family with teenage girls who's not navigating mental health challenges. 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:37.599 Yeah. 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.720 Like the research tells me they exist, but I can't name one. 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.039 And teenage boys are just a half step behind. 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.839 Um teenage boys are always a half step behind. 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.480 Yeah, that's true. 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:50.559 Yeah, that's a given, maybe in a lot of cases at least. 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.160 Uh and then you know what's happening with young people with technology? 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:54.720 Yes. 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.759 And all that they're exposed to, you know, it that causes them in some ways to uh uh be. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440 Be older and more mature, and in other ways, maybe be less mature. 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:12.000 So, you know, one of the lines that we have at the Full Youth Institute is 14 is the new 24, but 28 is the new 18. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.920 Which think about the young people you know, right? 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:18.880 Those 14-year-olds are really sophisticated. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.119 Yes. 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.000 And thanks to technology, know so much. 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.720 But then those 28-year-olds are often kind of developmentally behind. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:31.920 And so, you know, it's taking them a little bit longer to pass some of the traditional markers of adulthood. 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.319 So, you know, and then think about our world. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.640 I'll just add one more characteristic of what's different. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:45.200 Our world is so fractured today, you know, in the church, outside of the church, there's just so much divisiveness and so many polarities these days. 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319 And so in comes a new generation. 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:55.039 Um, what's constant, you know, you asked me what I would want folks to get out of this podcast. 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.960 Somebody asked me uh a couple years ago, Kara, summarize all your research in one sentence. 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.960 I mean, that's like me saying, John, summarize all your sermons in one sentence. 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.759 Love the Lord, you got with all your heart, soul mind, love your neighbors yourself. 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:08.480 So they've been done. 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.519 Great, great, awesome.

00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.960 Well, well, you could do that uh at the drop of a hat, which is wonderful. 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:24.400 So I kind of looked and thought for a few seconds, and I said, adolescent faith formation boils down to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults accompanying young people in life and faith. 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.079 Oh, you know, you gotta say that again. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.400 Okay, yeah, and and I vetted it with our team. 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:46.240 You know, I maybe tweaked it a little bit, added an adjective, perhaps, but but uh what I said two years ago, the team aligns with so adolescent faith formation boils down to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults, accompanying young people in life and faith. 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.720 I'll just highlight a couple words there. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.079 Accompany. 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:56.240 Um, we are doing a lot of exciting work with Catholics these days, especially through the 10 by 10 collaboration. 00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:59.279 And that is one of their favorite words for mentoring. 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.160 Interesting. 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.720 And just journeying in life together. 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:09.039 But they use it quite a bit for adults, uh walking with young people and the idea of accompanying. 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:14.160 There's a beautiful mutuality there that we hope adults lean into. 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:19.279 I I just picture there's that story in Luke after the resurrection of the Emmaus Road. 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:19.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:28.240 And a couple of the disciples are just crestfallen and they're on the road to Emmaus, and then they don't recognize him yet, but Jesus is walking with them. 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:32.240 Yeah, and just accompanying them, yeah, and just walking together and talking. 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:32.640 Yeah. 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.880 And then they see the presence of God. 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:36.799 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:43.519 I want to loop back to something related to that, but uh accompanying, um, and then if I can just point out trusted. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.119 You know, overall, if you look at the data at trust, we are a country that is not trusting others. 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:52.240 That's true across generations. 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.640 Trust in institutions down at almost everything. 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:59.920 Exactly, and religious institutions and young people especially are distrustful. 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:02.880 And sadly, we've earned that lack of trust. 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:09.359 They look at the church as unloving, hypocritical, judgmental. 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:13.599 And sadly, there's a lot of evidence that supports those theories. 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:21.359 Um, so that's why uh a trusted, caring, Jesus-centered adult who will accompany young people can mean so much. 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.039 And you know, the data on trust, this is so encouraging to me. 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.480 Um, the data on trust, it's not about heroic gestures. 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.519 It's not. 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:34.960 The best data on trust, it's everyday acts of showing up at a soccer game. 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.880 At it's it's asking a young person, hey, how can I be praying for you? 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:43.279 And then looping back 48 hours later and saying, Hey, I was praying for that science test. 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.960 Yeah, you know, how's it going? 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.759 The consistency and everyday small acts of showing you care. 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.000 That's how this generation builds trust. 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:52.640 Wow. 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:53.440 Wow. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.160 So uh uh you wanted to loop back to that Emmaus deal. 00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:58.960 Yeah. 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:16.000 So um we had a gathering at Fuller a few months ago, uh, thanks to a number of foundations who came together for a project that we called Rise, uh, resourcing the integration of spiritual and emotional health. 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:17.599 So the H is silent. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.599 So we call it RISE. 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.960 And we had uh 30, 40 practitioners, researchers gathered. 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.759 Um, and the talk that was the most impactful to me was Dave Wang. 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:31.200 I don't know if you spent much time with him. 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.200 Yeah, fuller faculty member. 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.240 His opening line was the Christian faith is built on a trauma. 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:41.920 The Christian faith is built on a trauma. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.839 The resurrection is or the crucifixion, excuse me. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.640 The crucifixion is inherently traumatic. 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.960 And then he pointed out something from John 20 that I hadn't really grasped. 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:58.640 Um and that was after the resurrection, Jesus still had scars. 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.279 God could have erased those. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:09.119 And you would kind of think heaven, perfect bodies, you know, there'd be no blemish. 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:09.599 Exactly. 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.480 There's no tears. 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:11.519 That would be the ideal. 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.119 The scars, the wounds stay. 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.519 But the resurrected Jesus had scars. 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:33.920 And so I think that's part of why young people these days are so drawn to Jesus, not necessarily the church, but Jesus, because they feel wounded, because they know their scars, and the idea that Jesus is a savior who had scars. 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.799 Um I got to share this with a young man who had been cutting. 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:39.680 Wow. 00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.039 And he said, I have

50 scars on my body. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.720 And the idea that I could say to him, Jesus relates, Jesus had scars. 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:55.839 So you know, there's a lot of talk about how young people are open, and we see that in our research. 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000 The Barner group has said that very well, that young people are really open to Jesus. 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:16.400 And I think partly because this generation has gone through a lot of pain, they could relate to a savior who who brings together beauty, but also there's still signs of, I don't want to say brokenness, that's not quite right, but signs of wounds and healing. 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:29.440 So I was thinking, you know, when I was in high school, to the extent that I understood it, the strategy of youth ministry was try to get the jocks and the cheerleaders to go to your church. 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:29.759 Yeah. 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.839 And then everybody else will follow. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:32.319 Yeah. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:33.759 Has that changed? 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.000 Yeah, it's a lot more splintered now. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:44.720 Uh I mean, you know, those who we used to call the the knee the nerds or the geeks, they don't care that much about the jocks and the cheerleaders. 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:50.960 And the jocks might not care about the cheerleaders, and the student government group doesn't care about the drama kids, etc. 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.240 So it's it's a whole lot more fractured, which means we need more diverse adults. 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:56.960 Yes, right? 00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:57.359 Yep. 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.920 We need more diverse adults because again, you don't have to be the one who connects with the jocks and the cheerleaders. 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:09.920 You can be your dorky self and connect with kids who are insecure, et cetera. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:10.160 Yeah. 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.480 And we just need a whole bunch of different adults caring about kids. 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:22.559 In fact, part of what we would love to champion is it's not just your youth pastor who's a youth worker, everyone is a youth worker. 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:34.160 I I I remember part of the research that you did was looking at again, what I think about when I was growing up, churches would have a ratio of how many kids could be in a group per each adult. 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:36.240 And you're thinking about that differently. 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.039 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.680 And this was the brilliance of Chap Clark when he was at Fuller, and he coined this idea of the five to one ratio. 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:52.400 Uh, because in in every research project, no matter what question we start with, John, we always end up seeing the importance of intergenerational relationships. 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.039 Again, caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adult. 00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:03.279 Whatever question we ask, you know, we're getting ready to do some new research on AI and we're looping back to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults. 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.759 So Chap was seeing that in his research. 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.839 And so he came up with this idea that we need to reverse the five to one ratio. 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.759 And what we mean by that is if I was to show up at your church or my church or any church and ask the youth pastor, the children's pastor, like, okay, what's what kind of ratio are you aiming for? 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.880 And they probably want like one adult for every five kids. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.759 Um I got a retreat coming up, right? 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.400 Whatever we're doing, one adult for every five kids. 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:31.599 Well, what chap wisely said is what if we reverse that? 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:37.119 And it's not one adult for five kids, it's five adults for each kid. 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:50.559 Not five small group leaders, not five Bible study leaders, but five adults who are showing up at a soccer game, five adults who are remembering a young person's birthday, five adults who are just that safe place. 00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:55.599 And uh five is a good number, but three is great, you know, whatever. 00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:02.160 And and you know, we say to parents and step parents, hey, you don't have to keep this a secret from your kid. 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.039 Like, ask your kid, who would you like to get to know better? 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.319 When your kids are young, who would you like to be, who would you like to babysit? 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:09.680 This is what Dave and I did. 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:10.559 Oh, that's great. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.200 So any parent that's watching right now, absolutely just ask your kid, who do you want to babysit? 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:20.559 Yeah, yeah, because I think about with our kids, that's a real quick indicator, like that person, don't want to be around that person. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.039 Totally. 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:23.039 And you need to get a babysitter anyway, right? 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:28.559 And so when you go to a person and say, hey, my kid has said they want to spend time with you, would you mind babysitting, you know, next Sunday night? 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.319 Like that's a pretty nice invitation. 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.160 Win-win-win for everybody, right? 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.119 For the kid, for the parent, and the adult who's getting invited. 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.440 Uh, when our kids got older, we played a game. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:38.960 Who would you talk to about? 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.799 You know, when they're in middle school, high school. 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:41.279 Oh, that's right. 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.079 You know, if you got if you got caught cheating, who would you talk to about it? 00:31:44.160 -->

00:31:44.319 Wow. 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.599 And just get them thinking, what adults can they go to? 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.880 So I want to cycle back to something you just mentioned a moment ago, AI. 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:54.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:54.559 --> 00:32:04.319 Lots of questions for folks with the emerging generation around obviously technology as a whole. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.559 Um, it's in particular, its impact, especially around emotional health. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:08.799 Yeah. 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:10.000 Jonathan Haidt. 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:10.480 Yeah. 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.440 Um, so I love what the research is indicating on that. 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:15.920 Yeah. 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.119 And then we'll shift over into AI in particular. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:20.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.559 Young people are turning to AI. 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:31.759 You know, the percentages range, it's up to like 72%, according to one study of young people, are turning to AI for personal support. 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.119 Not just a Google. 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:35.759 Just to get information, not just getting information. 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:43.839 Yeah, not just a fancy Google or a way to get a jump start on a homework assignment, but turning to turning to AI for personal support. 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:50.240 Um, and now that's one of the higher estimates, you know, somewhere probably between 30 and 70 is the reality. 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:55.119 But if you think about it, um, AI is a great sycophant, you know. 00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:56.480 Oh, every time I use it. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.519 John, that's a brilliant question. 00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:58.000 Brilliant. 00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:59.759 John, that's a profound observation. 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.920 John, you're on exactly the right track. 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.480 Even when you correct AI, it says, you're right. 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:05.599 I admit that. 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:07.200 So thank you for correcting me. 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:08.559 I I shouldn't be so flattering. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.599 I'll work on it. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:10.240 Exactly. 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:15.519 Yeah, I have to tell my AI, my AI, like, give me the brutal truth, like being critical with me. 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.039 Yeah, because it's been hard for me because Nancy tends to respond the same way. 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:19.599 Totally. 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.839 So it just indistinguishable. 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.440 Yes, yes, absolutely. 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:24.960 Yeah, because because that's your wife. 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:28.319 It's just uh 100% affirming no matter what she thinks. 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.480 Um so I love your wife. 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:31.519 Um I do too. 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:31.920 Yeah. 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:50.480 Um but I assume then, if the ratio is anywhere in that ballpark, kind of by definition, once the shift is from this could help me learn, this could help me acquire information, to I will become emotionally dependent on a non-person that's not a healthy development. 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:51.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:59.119 And uh you know, there is some data that about one out of four teenagers say AI knows me better than the people closest to me do. 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.480 One out of four. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:02.160 Yeah, one out of four already. 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.440 Which is unprecedented. 00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.960 I mean, no previous generation has faced that reality. 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:07.680 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.000 Social media took a lot longer to be adapted. 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.079 AI, it's been like a tidal wave. 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:27.039 So um we had a day with some Fuller faculty and other scholars, and one of them said something to the effect that if there's no someone to make you feel known, you'll turn to something. 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:28.960 Oh, yeah. 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:30.559 If there's no someone, you'll settle. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:31.920 Yeah. 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:38.239 Which is, I mean, when you think about idolatry as kind of idolatry as turning from someone to something. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.280 Something. 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.280 Yeah, I hadn't made that connection, Sean. 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.159 That's really good. 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.840 So, um, so AI is here to stay. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.159 You know, we're not gonna stop this tidal wave. 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:52.239 And for us, we look at it as an opportunity for the church. 00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:00.239 Yeah, like in the midst of machine learning, machine thinking becoming more prevalent, the need for humans is all the greater. 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:11.039 So, you know, this is a clarion call for us as adults and as churches to say, okay, as AI is this tsunami, like we want to be there too, and we want to be present. 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:14.159 We want to be engaging young people in spiritual practices. 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.280 This has been a big theme. 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.519 I know that's something you talk about quite a bit. 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.760 You know, we really want uh young people to embody their faith. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:28.719 I think one of the more interesting things that we've been talking about with scholars is also the role of friction in faith formation. 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:29.440 Say more. 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:30.000 Yeah. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.440 Uh this is probably the most intriguing thing to me these days that, you know, AI makes my life easier. 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:35.599 Yeah. 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.920 I mean, I I use AI probably 10 times a day. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.199 I understand it's dangers. 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:47.440 I'm trying to do

what I can about those dangers, but it's a as been said, it it kind of can become a teammate, not just a tool, but a but a teammate. 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:48.000 Yep. 00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:51.440 So um, so there's a lot I love about AI. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.800 Um I lost my train of thought. 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:55.599 Friction is a good idea. 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.719 We were talking about friction. 00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.800 And I love things being easier, you know. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:03.920 I I I love hacks, but there are no hacks for interior formation. 00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:38.099 And when we come to expect that answers are easy, things come quickly, you know, what is that doing to our understanding of Romans 5, 3, and 4? 00:36:38.260 --> 00:36:42.099 Suffering leads to perseverance, perseverance, character, and character hope. 00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:52.579 You know, my kids who are 20 to 25, um they're so used to Amazon Prime delivery that, you know, if something takes two days, that's so unreasonable. 00:36:52.740 --> 00:36:55.139 It's like the dark ages for them, you know. 00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:58.179 Um, because everything is fast, everything is easy. 00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:00.340 So that's something else that we're asking. 00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:04.740 You know, friction and challenges are important for our overall formation. 00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:22.179 I was reading something quite recently, and it suggested, just to your point, that um if I never have to wait to find anything out, yeah, um, then uh I lose the power of curiosity to motivate and to help me to persist over time. 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:22.420 Yeah. 00:37:22.659 --> 00:37:23.539 Now here's my question. 00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:31.139 So we have that observation how do I as an adult not move to oh these spoiled entitled young people? 00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:38.340 You know, back in my day, yeah, we had to work for it six miles uphill both ways to school through the snow. 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:38.659 Yeah. 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:43.860 How do I how do I absorb that information and not turn into that guy? 00:37:44.019 --> 00:37:44.659 Yeah. 00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:48.980 So what comes to mind is one of my favorite quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:56.260 This is my paraphrase real community is possible when I view myself as the chief sinner. 00:37:56.980 --> 00:38:08.579 When I view myself as the biggest sinner, if as I'm talking with you, if I'm viewing myself and in touch with my sin, I will see myself as more flawed than you. 00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:22.179 So whoever we're talking to, whatever the difference is, whether it's age, whether it's social economic status, whatever, whether it's political party, you know, whatever it might be, can I see myself as the bigger sinner? 00:38:22.420 --> 00:38:25.460 And I think that's part of how we can keep humble. 00:38:25.700 --> 00:38:30.500 So that I mean, coming back again to the main thing we want folks to take away without judging, yeah. 00:38:30.740 --> 00:38:39.059 Really what's behind judging wherever it comes from is a sense of superiority and a lack of humility and knowing myself as a sinner. 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:39.300 Yeah. 00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:42.260 And it's like that just seeps into us in such deep ways. 00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:42.740 Totally. 00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:49.700 But that's what's coming out of me when I reflexively think about this generation in judgmental ways. 00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:50.659 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:50.980 --> 00:39:05.139 You know, one of the really good questions we get asked when we share how, especially Gen Alpha, but young people in general want to be listened to without being judged, is invariably there'll be an adult who raises their hand and says, but what if they're doing something wrong? 00:39:05.539 --> 00:39:06.980 What do I do then? 00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:07.380 Uh-huh. 00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:08.740 Totally fair question. 00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:14.980 You know, I'm not saying we're just bobbleheading our way through life and kind of smiling and nodding and everything that young people do. 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:19.860 Sometimes with my own kids or young people I'm close to, there's something that I feel like I need to say to them. 00:39:20.019 --> 00:39:26.099 Um, one of our mantras is never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. 00:39:26.420 --> 00:39:27.059 Oh gosh. 00:39:27.220 --> 00:39:27.780 One more time. 00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:38.740 Never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, which, you know, I would give myself about a B minus at best at that, despite it being something I've been quoting for like five years. 00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:47.460 Um, so first, you know, when you have something that you want to talk about with a young person, can you can you make it about questions that you're asking? 00:39:47.700 --> 00:39:50.340 Now, my own kids, oh, you know, they catch on. 00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:54.980 And they have said, Mom, some of your questions, they're like quest gestions. 00:39:56.500 --> 00:39:58.340 And they're not wrong. 00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:02.900 So, you know, I'm I'm working on asking questions that are truly curious. 00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:06.500 Yes, and not trying to convince my kids of something. 00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:06.980 Yeah. 00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:11.380 Um, and I gotta say, this is You should do what I tell you to, don't you think? 00:40:11.700 --> 00:40:11.860 Right? 00:40:12.099 --> 00:40:12.900 Yeah, exactly. 00:40:13.059 --> 00:40:13.539 Exactly. 00:40:13.700 --> 00:40:17.780 Well, honestly, because of our research, uh, even though my kids are older, they're Gen Z. 00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:25.619 Um, you know, I really have been trying to, with the questions that I ask, how can I have them be as agenda-free as possible? 00:40:26.019 --> 00:40:26.820 Genuinely curious. 00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:28.179 Genuinely curious.

00:40:28.340 --> 00:40:32.179 Instead of wanting to drive them toward a particular destination. 00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:36.659 So with one of my daughters, she was trying to choose between A and B. 00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:38.980 And, you know, I thought A was better. 00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:43.059 But I said, Well, what do you think are some of the advantages of B? 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:46.340 Which I don't know that I would have done before ever researched. 00:40:46.579 --> 00:40:50.820 I would have just camped out a lot on the advantages of A and the disadvantages of B. 00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:54.260 Now she ended up choosing A, but she might not have. 00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:58.420 But I'm glad that I was able to really help her think about both options. 00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:07.300 So, so you know, when it comes to when you see something that concerns you about a young person, can you ask questions of curiosity? 00:41:07.460 --> 00:41:11.780 Um, and in fact, we we recommend you start a question with, I'm curious. 00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:13.220 Oh, that's a great preface. 00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:14.500 Hey, I'm I'm curious. 00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:18.579 You know, you I know that you believe this, and then I see this happening in your life. 00:41:18.740 --> 00:41:21.300 Like, how do those two things come together for you? 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.579 That's something I've used. 00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:24.420 That framing is something I've used quite a bit. 00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:27.539 You say this, I've heard you believe this, but then I see this. 00:41:27.619 --> 00:41:29.220 Like, how does that come together? 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:34.500 Um, but sometimes you do feel like, okay, I just need to tell a young person how I'm feeling. 00:41:34.579 --> 00:41:34.820 Right. 00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:38.579 Well, I stumbled onto this and it's worked really well for me. 00:41:38.740 --> 00:41:48.260 When you do feel like, okay, I need to share what I think is truth, what I think scripture is saying, what I ask after that is, what do you disagree with in what I've just said? 00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:50.260 And I let them critique me. 00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:50.820 Huh. 00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.940 And I'll tell you, especially my own kids, they love that. 00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:59.619 Like, you know, they've got a lot of thoughts of where I'm misunderstanding them or the situation, et cetera. 00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:12.340 But then when I follow up with, uh, well, you know, where might what I said maybe be right or have some a good point to it, then they seem to have been more open to affirm where I was right because I let them critique me first. 00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:22.740 So, so you know, bottom line, our recommendation is even when there's a truth you need to share, a principle you need to share, how do you make it a conversation following up with questions? 00:42:23.139 --> 00:42:32.019 A good friend of mine is realizing, because his wife pointed it out to

him, that he has this verbal tick where he will say something and he always wants to persuade, so he'll follow that up with it. 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:32.740 Does that make sense? 00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:33.220 Yes. 00:42:33.380 --> 00:42:37.300 Oh, and he's realized that really he's not asking a question. 00:42:37.460 --> 00:42:38.579 He's just like, tell me I'm right. 00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:39.700 Say yes, say yes. 00:42:39.940 --> 00:42:45.860 And so talking through it, finding another statement like, but I'd really like to hear your opinion. 00:42:46.659 --> 00:42:50.099 Only then you have to get yourself to the place where you really do want to hear their opinions. 00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:51.940 Totally, totally, yeah. 00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:58.900 I'm wondering if this judgmental thing might be tied to uh a book you may or may not know of. 00:42:59.059 --> 00:43:02.579 I think the number one selling book last year was a book called Let Them. 00:43:03.139 --> 00:43:04.500 I've heard of it, but I have not read it. 00:43:04.659 --> 00:43:08.659 I I've just read parts of it, but it was written by a woman, an influencer. 00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:10.500 We may come back to that word. 00:43:11.220 --> 00:43:19.300 And uh she she uh her kind of beginning anecdote was her son was going to a prom and he was doing it all wrong. 00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:27.460 You know, he had not made reservations at a restaurant, he hadn't bought a booth there, he hadn't arranged for transportation, and she's just going nuts on you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this. 00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:30.659 And her daughter finally says, just let him but then won't have any food. 00:43:30.740 --> 00:43:30.980 Yes. 00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:31.700 Well let him. 00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:33.700 Yes, but then he wouldn't have a croissant to give him. 00:43:33.940 --> 00:43:34.500 Well let him. 00:43:34.579 --> 00:43:34.820 Yes. 00:43:35.059 --> 00:43:47.300 And so that let them which which you know I I sometimes will think about God in the garden where an angel would come and say, God, you gotta put a fence around that tree. 00:43:47.380 --> 00:44:01.059 You gotta tell them they get you know, let them, let them, uh that it's kind of an honoring somebody's kingdom, but yeah, and and that concept, uh, you know, it it's clearly striking a nerve. 00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:11.220 And I think especially with parents, um, let them, and I wonder if that's connected to that it's so powerful because there's a generation of young people who just feel judged. 00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:12.019 Yeah, yeah. 00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:28.579 And I I have heard an interview with the author of that book, and I think part of what's beauty and beautiful about let them is um part of why I care about whether or not my son has a corsage for the Prom to use the example that you just gave is because I have a picture of what prom should be. 00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:34.099 And I also, if I'll get real personal here, I want my kid to do it right. 00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:34.420 Yep. 00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:35.300 I want to be the mom. 00:44:35.700 --> 00:44:37.460 Because it's a reflection on my parenthood. 00:44:37.700 --> 00:44:46.579 And if my kid does really good, then I want to be the mom whose son has it together and not the mom whose son, you know, is clueless and doesn't get together. 00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:50.340 I just think our children probably pick up on that a little bit more than we know. 00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:51.139 Yeah, yeah. 00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:53.139 Okay, now you're getting convicting here, John. 00:44:53.619 --> 00:44:55.059 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:44:55.220 --> 00:44:58.659 So, you know, when you asked, how can we not judge? 00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:04.420 I shared about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but the other thought that came to mind is okay, let's just hold up the mirror to ourselves. 00:45:04.820 --> 00:45:15.940 And a lot of what we're judgmental about in young people, it's probably really our own insecurities, our own wanting to look a certain way as parents, grandparents, pastors, etc. 00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:18.579 So what what are we bringing to this? 00:45:18.820 --> 00:45:28.099 No, it strikes me when you say that like research and data is really helpful and really good, but not mostly because it's going to give us technique and method. 00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:28.579 Yeah. 00:45:29.059 --> 00:45:36.500 Mostly it will reinforce or point out where my unhealth is damaging other people. 00:45:36.740 --> 00:45:36.900 Yeah. 00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:45.220 And I need to go back and be with God and work on my own self because that's they're kind of holding up a little mirror. 00:45:45.460 --> 00:45:46.099 Yeah, yeah. 00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:51.059 Well, and uh you obviously know Dallas Willard far, far, far much better than I do. 00:45:51.220 --> 00:45:59.300 But you know, just looking at life as God's curriculum for us and relationships is our our constant lab in spiritual formation. 00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:02.740 And I'll tell you, nothing has formed me more than being a parent. 00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:03.059 Yeah. 00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:04.019 There's nothing. 00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:04.260 Yeah. 00:46:04.420 --> 00:46:07.300 That more than being a pastor, more than being a professor. 00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:15.700 But unfortunately, a lot of folks, including a lot of us who do spiritual formation, don't talk much about parenthood as a spiritual discipline. 00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:16.740 Yeah, right. 00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:21.139 And I can remember when I first started out as a pastor talking about seeking the kingdom. 00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:25.300 And one of the women there said it was a lot easier for me to seek the kingdom first when I was in college. 00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:26.820 I said, How come? 00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:28.500 And she said, Well, then I had lots of free time. 00:46:28.659 --> 00:46:28.820 Sure. 00:46:28.980

--> 00:46:31.460 So I could get up early in the morning, I could read the Bible and pray. 00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:31.700 Yeah. 00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:34.500 And now I have two little kids and they're both under three years old. 00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:34.659 Yeah. 00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:35.940 And I can't do that anymore. 00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:36.179 Yeah. 00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:52.500 It was like nobody had ever told her maybe caring for, loving, serving two little children is bringing about transformation and pouring more love and spiritual change in you than memorizing the book of Isaiah. 00:46:52.579 --> 00:46:52.740 Yeah. 00:46:52.900 --> 00:46:54.659 But it's like that counts and that doesn't matter. 00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:55.220 It doesn't. 00:46:55.539 --> 00:46:56.179 Yeah, yeah. 00:46:56.340 --> 00:47:00.740 And even when you get frustrated with those two little kids, what is God trying to show you? 00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:00.980 Yeah. 00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:02.579 Or what is God's invitation? 00:47:02.659 --> 00:47:03.700 Well, use that wording. 00:47:04.019 --> 00:47:09.220 What is God's invitation for you in the midst of the parenting and grandparenting highs and lows? 00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:25.539 What is uh like I think is I hear you and read you very often, kind of the first uh direction, implication from research is to help churches figure out how do we how do we get uh church right for young people. 00:47:26.179 --> 00:47:27.940 Um let's take parents for a moment. 00:47:28.099 --> 00:47:28.500 Yeah. 00:47:28.659 --> 00:47:32.340 Um lots of people who are listening to us right now, yeah, our parents. 00:47:32.420 --> 00:47:32.740 Yeah. 00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:38.740 Uh when you think about the research that you have done and what it points to, what do parents most need to hear? 00:47:38.980 --> 00:47:39.220 Yeah. 00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:42.099 Well, let me start with some really encouraging news. 00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:46.019 Um, you know, research in the last handful of decades. 00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:47.860 Very few parents kill their children. 00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:48.579 Okay. 00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:49.300 Yes. 00:47:49.780 --> 00:47:52.740 Number one command, the most important of the ten commandments, thou shalt not kill. 00:47:52.900 --> 00:47:53.139 That's the same thing. 00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:54.019 Parents needed, yeah. 00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:54.340 Great. 00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:55.780 Okay, so we've crossed that hurdle. 00:47:55.940 --> 00:47:56.579 Excellent. 00:47:56.820 --> 00:48:04.659 Um, when you look at uh additional research, additional data in the last decades, you know, research is pretty clear. 00:48:04.820 --> 00:48:09.780 It's hard to find anything more important in a young person's faith formation than parents. 00:48:10.019 --> 00:48:16.099 So when I earlier said, you know, trusted Jesus-centered adults, that usually starts at home. 00:48:16.179 --> 00:48:18.500 Now, having said that, there's all sorts of exceptions. 00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:18.740 Right. 00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:22.579 We all know young people who have amazing parents and vice versa. 00:48:22.659 --> 00:48:24.659 And, you know, God works in mysterious ways. 00:48:24.740 --> 00:48:36.740 But when I look at the research, I've got to say, parents, there's nothing more important than you and your young person's faith formation, which is both encouraging and terrifying to uh you know unaware parent. 00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:47.539 What's different about Gen Alpha, and this has been fascinating in this our surveys of 3,000 of them so far, is that Gen Alpha is also verbalizing how important parents are. 00:48:47.780 --> 00:48:48.260 Really? 00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:48.740 Yeah. 00:48:50.019 --> 00:48:52.099 In ways that previous generations were not. 00:48:52.340 --> 00:48:52.900 Absolutely. 00:48:53.220 --> 00:48:53.780 Absolutely. 00:48:53.940 --> 00:49:00.900 So we talk a lot at Fuller about identity, belonging, and purpose as being the three big questions that young people are wrestling with. 00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:02.019 So who am I? 00:49:02.179 --> 00:49:03.860 Where do I fit and what difference can I make? 00:49:04.099 --> 00:49:04.659 Who am I with my family? 00:49:04.900 --> 00:49:06.420 Where do I fit and what difference can I make? 00:49:06.740 --> 00:49:14.260 So we've as we look at identity, belonging, and purpose and faith of Jen Alpha, 13 to 16, 17 year olds. 00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:21.300 I mean, John, I could show you graph after graph where family is ahead of friends, is ahead of church. 00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:24.900 Um, parents and grandparents are ahead of friends. 00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:28.980 Siblings are even uh pegging higher than we would have expected. 00:49:29.220 --> 00:49:29.539 Really? 00:49:29.700 --> 00:49:35.139 So there's something about this generation that they're more in touch with the influence of family. 00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:36.420 Now, why is that? 00:49:36.579 --> 00:49:37.619 We don't know for sure. 00:49:37.700 --> 00:49:38.980 We're still trying to figure that out. 00:49:39.139 --> 00:49:47.860 I think it's partly what we were talking about before that in the midst of the pandemic, in the midst of mental health, for many young people, home is a safer place than other places. 00:49:48.019 --> 00:49:52.579 Not all young people, and for some young people, home is really not safe, but for many, home is safe. 00:49:52.740 --> 00:50:00.099 I think the other thing is there's um there's a uh a form of parenting that facilitates family intimacy. 00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:02.820 It's gentle parenting, you know, that's a trend these days. 00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:03.619 It is a big trend. 00:50:03.860 --> 00:50:04.659 It is a big trend. 00:50:04.740 --> 00:50:07.220 Uh, you know, emotional regulation. 00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:10.579 We never talked about emotional regulation when I was parents. 00:50:11.059 --> 00:50:11.780 Wheel of emotions. 00:50:12.099 -->

00:50:13.139 Yeah, the feelings wheel. 00:50:13.460 --> 00:50:13.780 Exactly. 00:50:13.940 --> 00:50:14.260 Exactly. 00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.260 There's a lot of families who have that up on their fridge. 00:50:16.340 --> 00:50:16.500 Yeah. 00:50:16.659 --> 00:50:17.860 And I think it's a great tool. 00:50:18.019 --> 00:50:28.740 And I have told my kids, in fact, I told my girls uh a week ago, our 20 and 23-year-old daughters were over, and I told them something I've said many times before. 00:50:29.059 --> 00:50:37.619 What I would most redo as a parent is I would have given you more space to express your feelings, especially your anger and your sadness. 00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:41.380 You know, I kind of did, but then I had a phrase, pull it together. 00:50:42.740 --> 00:50:45.300 I mean, can't you just see me saying pull it together? 00:50:45.700 --> 00:50:47.300 It doesn't sound like me at all. 00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:48.500 It doesn't sound like you at all. 00:50:48.740 --> 00:50:49.139 Pull it together. 00:50:49.220 --> 00:50:50.420 And then I wouldn't even give a time frame. 00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:55.139 Like we'd be driving them, you got to pull it together by the time we get to grandma's house or, you know, whatever it is. 00:50:55.700 --> 00:51:01.139 And I can laugh about it with my girls now and our son, but I I would redo that. 00:51:01.220 --> 00:51:06.019 So I think there's something really beautiful about families making more space for emotions. 00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:17.700 There's certainly some downsides, and you know, teachers are starting to struggle as this wave of preschoolers and elementary kids come in who are very used to a adult, an adult attending to their emotions. 00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:19.700 And here's a teacher with 20 to 40 kids. 00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:30.659 So, you know, there's some downsides probably too, but um, but I do think there's a different family intimacy as we're more open about emotions that this generation is benefiting from. 00:51:30.900 --> 00:51:31.139 Yeah. 00:51:31.460 --> 00:51:32.740 Let me follow up on that one. 00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:42.260 I hadn't anticipated with this this direction, but parenting, children, moral and spiritual formation, how all that comes together is kind of fascinating to me. 00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:42.579 Yeah. 00:51:42.820 --> 00:51:54.340 And I think of like Deuteronomy 6:4, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, him so you love, and then write down these laws, put them on your doorposts, teach them to your children. 00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:54.900 Yeah. 00:51:55.700 --> 00:52:06.179 So education generally has been understood, and certainly was in Israel, to include moral education and spiritual education. 00:52:06.420 --> 00:52:22.820 And part of the understanding was when children are growing up, they will all have desires and the great tension in life is learning to let go of what I happen to desire if it violates the good. 00:52:24.420 --> 00:52:25.940 Dallas would talk quite a lot about that. 00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:32.900 Yeah, that's he would essentially describe the battle between the flesh and spirit as flesh is a way of talking about I want this. 00:52:32.980 --> 00:52:35.619 Yeah, I want this toy, I want this happy meal, I want this job. 00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:38.340 And uh there's times when it violates the good. 00:52:38.500 --> 00:52:38.659 Yeah. 00:52:38.900 --> 00:52:45.059 So I have to learn to die to what I desire if it conflicts with the good. 00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:56.019 And uh that seems like it involves a certain kind of directedness and an expectation of correction. 00:52:56.179 --> 00:52:56.579 Yeah. 00:52:57.139 --> 00:53:05.139 Um that uh increasingly in a therapeutic age is a little tricky to pull off as a parent. 00:53:05.380 --> 00:53:05.700 Yeah. 00:53:06.019 --> 00:53:07.300 Uh and there was Dr. 00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:09.220 Spock a little before I was. 00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:10.659 Yeah, my mom read that. 00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:11.940 Gentle parenting. 00:53:12.019 --> 00:53:12.340 Yeah. 00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:31.780 Um how do you think about that kind of ancient understanding of uh the presence of sin as misguided desire, but then on the other hand, all of the ways in which that can become distorted, misguided. 00:53:31.940 --> 00:53:32.179 Yeah. 00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:39.780 I can remember when I was a kid too, there'd be certain kind of churches that would teach parents you must break the will of the child. 00:53:40.099 --> 00:53:40.579 Right, sure. 00:53:40.659 --> 00:53:40.980 Totally. 00:53:41.220 --> 00:53:42.340 And do enormous damage. 00:53:42.820 --> 00:53:44.579 And it's like, nope, that's not the idea. 00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:45.300 Mm-hmm. 00:53:46.340 --> 00:53:49.380 Let me share something else I wish I had done differently as a parent. 00:53:49.460 --> 00:53:52.500 Um, that maybe is a way to tangibilize what you said. 00:53:52.579 --> 00:53:54.019 And I I learned this from another parent. 00:53:54.099 --> 00:54:00.980 And part of what I love about my job is I get to spend time just listening and talking to parents and grandparents, pastors, leaders. 00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:07.539 Um, and this one parent said, you know, one of the big themes in our family was Jesus is best. 00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:08.980 Oh, I love it. 00:54:09.220 --> 00:54:09.940 Isn't that good? 00:54:10.099 --> 00:54:10.820 Yeah, yeah. 00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:11.300 Yep. 00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:15.300 I heard that a couple of years ago, and I thought, wow, that would have been a really helpful way. 00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:16.099 That would have been. 00:54:16.340 --> 00:54:18.659 You know, for a four-year-old or for a 14-year-old. 00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:19.220 Yep. 00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:21.700 Like Jesus, Jesus is best. 00:54:21.860 --> 00:54:23.940 So do you run much into this? 00:54:24.099 --> 00:54:33.059 The this will uh probably not tend to be inside the church much, but certainly

in the culture some children are not old enough to give informed consent. 00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:40.980 So parents should not take them to church, shouldn't teach them that the Bible is true, um, shouldn't have them be praying to Jesus. 00:54:41.220 --> 00:54:45.619 They should just wait until they are old enough to make a decision on their own. 00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:46.980 Do you do you run into that much? 00:54:47.059 --> 00:54:48.179 And how do you respond to it? 00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:57.940 I don't run into it very much, and I would respond to it by saying in so many other areas, we do give structured education and formation to kids. 00:54:58.099 --> 00:55:03.940 So, you know, they they take math classes, they take history, they are on swim teams, et cetera. 00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:08.019 So why would we not have exposure to the Christian community? 00:55:08.099 --> 00:55:09.380 Um, be part of it. 00:55:09.460 --> 00:55:14.179 And that includes, you know, some structured content, intergenerational mentoring, etc. 00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:19.460 The question that we do run into a lot is hey, my 14-year-old doesn't want to go to church anymore. 00:55:19.619 --> 00:55:20.019 What do I do? 00:55:20.260 --> 00:55:21.220 Yeah, what do you what do you say? 00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:22.740 That's an omnipresent question. 00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:24.260 So uh a couple things. 00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:31.940 Number one, um, Eugene Peterson has this great phrase in one of his his in his book, uh, like do for youth, which is such an odd title. 00:55:32.019 --> 00:55:36.500 But um anyway, it's a quote from scripture um that is about parenting. 00:55:36.980 --> 00:55:41.220 And he says, you know, keep your kid in the conversation. 00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:48.420 So if your kid doesn't want to be in the faith community, how do you keep your kid in the conversation? 00:55:48.659 --> 00:55:50.579 So so what does that actually look like? 00:55:50.740 --> 00:55:57.460 What we recommend to parents and caregivers is so ask your kid, you know, is there another church you would like to try out? 00:55:57.700 --> 00:56:02.260 And then you as a parent be willing to go to that other church. 00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:09.139 We tell parents, I tell parents all the time, your young person's faith formation should be your priority now. 00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:13.940 You know, you can listen to sermons, you can listen to worship, you can get fed other ways. 00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:16.500 Please lean into what what your kid wants. 00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:18.340 So, you know, is there another church? 00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:19.300 Is there a young life? 00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:21.380 Is there a youth for Christ that your kid would want to go to? 00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.900 Or another person, mentoring. 00:56:23.139 --> 00:56:24.179 Another exactly, exactly. 00:56:24.260 --> 00:56:25.539 Who's who's another person? 00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:36.659 The other thing I would say, and I used to say this as a youth pastor, you know, going on an overnight or a weekend retreat is worth about six months of going on Sunday mornings, just in terms of social connections. 00:56:36.820 --> 00:56:41.380 Because usually when a kid says, I don't want to go to church, it's because they don't feel connected socially. 00:56:41.619 --> 00:56:45.220 They might say, Oh, I don't like the teaching, you know, or the theological boat. 00:56:45.700 --> 00:56:45.860 Totally. 00:56:46.179 --> 00:56:46.820 They'll use something. 00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:48.340 Nine out of ten times. 00:56:48.820 --> 00:56:50.820 If there's somebody in the other room who likes them, totally. 00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:53.300 Then they or they had an adult they felt comfortable with. 00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:53.619 Yeah. 00:56:53.780 --> 00:57:01.139 And so, you know, we regularly recommend to parents look at look at the next six, nine months of your youth ministry events and ask your kid to choose one. 00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:01.460 Yeah. 00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:06.019 Choose one something beyond a Sunday, one all day, one overnight or one retreat. 00:57:06.179 --> 00:57:08.900 And that's what they're going to to give it an attempt. 00:57:09.059 --> 00:57:19.619 And so, in fact, I just had this parent um reach out to us, and I was getting to know her, and her daughter really didn't want to go to camp, and there were some developmental differences, et cetera. 00:57:19.780 --> 00:57:25.940 And she went to camp, and um, you know, by hour one, she was mixing it up with all the kids. 00:57:26.179 --> 00:57:35.139 So, you know, that kid who doesn't want to get out of your van and go to camp, often by hour one or two, you know, they have totally immersed themselves in the community. 00:57:35.300 --> 00:57:37.780 So, so yes, is there another community? 00:57:37.940 --> 00:57:38.900 Is there an adult? 00:57:39.059 --> 00:57:44.659 Can we pick something beyond just Sunday morning that you can really connect with others relationally? 00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:48.740 So, so since you're giving direction, I'm gonna ask you to give some of the pastors. 00:57:48.980 --> 00:57:49.380 Oh, okay. 00:57:49.539 --> 00:57:55.380 And I'm thinking in particular now of I'm thinking of churches where um they really have a lot to offer. 00:57:55.619 --> 00:58:05.220 Maybe the church has been around for quite a while, yeah, but it's aged and there are not uh any or not many children, not any or many young people. 00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:06.099 Yeah, very kind. 00:58:06.340 --> 00:58:11.860 And the leadership might say, well, if they came, we would come up with something for them. 00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:12.340 Yeah. 00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:15.380 But if there's nothing for them, they're not gonna come. 00:58:15.539 --> 00:58:15.780 Yeah. 00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:19.139 What would you say to that church, to that pastor? 00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:19.940 Yeah. 00:58:20.500 --> 00:58:22.500 Two streams of thought for that question.

00:58:22.659 --> 00:58:26.980 First, I would ask that pastor, how are you prioritizing young people? 00:58:27.460 --> 00:58:39.300 Because some of the most depressing research that we've done in the last two years was we did a survey of 600 senior pastors and asked them where young people fell and their priorities. 00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:42.019 And only, you might not be surprised by this. 00:58:42.099 --> 00:58:43.619 I was and disheartened. 00:58:43.780 --> 00:58:51.619 Um, I'll say only one third of the senior pastors who responded to our survey said young people were in their top five priorities. 00:58:51.860 --> 00:58:52.099 Wow. 00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:53.220 Thank you for saying wow. 00:58:53.300 --> 00:58:55.139 Yeah, top five priorities. 00:58:55.380 --> 00:59:00.099 So think about you know what else is up there that young people are six through ten. 00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:04.900 And then to make it worse, you know, this was a survey from the Fuller Youth Institute. 00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:07.539 So if anything, it's gonna That should have prompted it. 00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:11.220 It's gonna lean towards like a social desirability bias that's supposed to be. 00:59:11.539 --> 00:59:11.780 Exactly. 00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:12.980 There's definitely a bias there. 00:59:13.059 --> 00:59:15.539 So if anything, the one-third is a little bit high. 00:59:15.780 --> 00:59:19.619 So, you know, that's the first question we love asking pastors and church boards. 00:59:19.700 --> 00:59:21.619 Like, how are you prioritizing young people? 00:59:21.700 --> 00:59:22.740 And let's get tangible. 00:59:22.900 --> 00:59:26.260 What kind of resources are you uh allocating to them? 00:59:26.420 --> 00:59:33.940 Um, and and I mean money and I mean time and I mean energy and I mean facility, because young people can tell if they're a priority or not. 00:59:34.099 --> 00:59:38.500 Senior pastor, how much time are you spending with young people, getting to know them? 00:59:38.659 --> 00:59:44.500 Um so that is that is one thing I would say is, you know, really are you prioritizing young people? 00:59:44.659 --> 00:59:47.300 And then this is just the theme here. 00:59:47.539 --> 00:59:48.980 Are you listening to young people? 00:59:49.059 --> 00:59:49.300 Yeah. 00:59:49.460 --> 01:00:01.380 So, you know, one of the first steps we recommend to churches who say, we don't have any young people, they've all left, is to say, well, why don't you go back to the young people who have left and ask them, yeah, well, why did you leave? 01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:02.420 What could have made a difference? 01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:04.900 Hey, would you like to be a part of something new? 01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:05.220 Yeah. 01:00:05.380 --> 01:00:08.420 And, you know, maybe they're all 16, 17, they've moved on. 01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:20.019 Well, who are your 10 and 11-year-olds, your 12-year-olds who you can start building a relationship now and who can become a strong middle school ministry that becomes a strong youth ministry and so on and so forth because you've listened to them. 01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:23.460 So, yeah, prioritization, real tangible on that. 01:00:23.619 --> 01:00:26.260 You know, your budget is a manifesto of your priorities. 01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:27.460 Yep. 01:00:27.940 --> 01:00:30.420 So, where are young people in your budget? 01:00:30.500 --> 01:00:30.740 Yeah. 01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:33.539 And then um how you're actually listening. 01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:36.900 And if there's pastors listening to us now, are there resources? 01:00:36.980 --> 01:00:43.139 Are there churches that are learning how to do it right, places that you point people to where, like, if you're serious about it, here's where you can get some help. 01:00:43.300 --> 01:00:43.460 Yeah. 01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:45.700 Can they get it from uh from Fuller? 01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:46.500 Yeah, absolutely. 01:00:46.579 --> 01:00:51.059 Please go to Foleyouthinstitute.org and sign up for our free every week email. 01:00:51.220 --> 01:00:56.980 We also have a free John Alpha report um that that goes is a deep dive into all of our research. 01:00:57.059 --> 01:00:59.460 And we're only about two-thirds of the way done with our research. 01:00:59.539 --> 01:01:01.539 So we'll have more free reports coming out. 01:01:01.700 --> 01:01:17.059 And then also for churches that really want to engage with young people, Growing Young has been a book that's really connected with them, where we look at, because we studied several hundred churches that had prior that that were growing with young people, hence the title, Growing Young. 01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:18.820 What is it that they did? 01:01:18.980 --> 01:01:23.780 And we specifically get into prioritization because that was one of the six things that churches do. 01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:28.740 Is that in fact that was often the fork in the road whether a church was prioritizing young people. 01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:29.220 Wow. 01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:30.260 So yeah. 01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:35.539 So that so that book has a lot of great uh ideas on how churches are prioritizing young people. 01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:43.220 Yeah, ask you uh about pastors, because obviously you're involved also and at a place that's involved in equipping pastors. 01:01:43.380 --> 01:01:43.700 Yeah. 01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:49.619 Lots of information about fewer people going into pastoring, they're getting older, they're leaving. 01:01:49.780 --> 01:01:50.099 Yeah. 01:01:50.500 --> 01:01:54.579 Um, you have watched lots of pastors who don't end well. 01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:55.220 Yeah. 01:01:55.539 --> 01:01:58.500 Um how do you think about that? 01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:04.340 What does the church need to do to be uh attracting healthy pastors? 01:02:04.579 --> 01:02:11.460 What kind of damage does it do when somebody who's in a leadership position does not navigate life with integrity? 01:02:11.619 --> 01:02:12.500 How do you

think through that? 01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:15.860 Yeah, well, I'll just start with the last question. 01:02:16.099 --> 01:02:17.380 It does a lot of damage. 01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:17.940 Yeah. 01:02:18.500 --> 01:02:21.619 Um I'll answer your earlier questions. 01:02:21.700 --> 01:02:28.820 Uh we haven't talked about this, John, but um we've we've really tried to listen to denominations in the last three or four months. 01:02:28.900 --> 01:02:41.059 So we've talked to 10 different denominations, uh, Protestant denominations, mainline evangelical, and we've asked them what are your top three needs, opportunities, you know, top three questions you're wrestling with. 01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:44.340 Every single one of them is saying next gen leadership pipeline. 01:02:44.500 --> 01:02:44.740 Wow. 01:02:44.900 --> 01:02:46.659 And often it's number one. 01:02:47.059 --> 01:02:52.740 Um, and that's not just true with mainline denominations where the aging is more obvious. 01:02:52.900 --> 01:03:04.500 So I would say, and and in the midst of denominations saying that this is a question for them, um, not many are prioritizing it and listening to young people. 01:03:04.659 --> 01:03:09.300 So there is one denomination that said, you know, Fuller, we'd really love to work with you on this. 01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:15.300 And so we're now creating a partnership with them where both it is gonna be both top-down and bottom-up. 01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:16.820 How do we invest in young people? 01:03:16.900 --> 01:03:24.099 And it's gonna start by listening to young people and listening to young people who are in ministry and what led them on that journey. 01:03:24.260 --> 01:03:30.740 So it's the same principles prioritization and listening, whether it's an individual church or a network or a denomination. 01:03:31.059 --> 01:03:32.900 I I hadn't thought about that, but I've took the numbers. 01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:41.380 This is just an anecdotal, but number of folks who would say the pipeline of people who are going into student ministry, youth ministry is drying up, getting smaller. 01:03:41.539 --> 01:03:41.780 Yeah. 01:03:42.019 --> 01:03:50.579 And historically, that was the single biggest feeder into people that would then go into becoming senior pastors or whatever the language would be. 01:03:50.659 --> 01:03:50.820 Yeah. 01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:55.059 So what's happening there is now impact, impacting what's happening there. 01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:56.579 Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. 01:03:56.740 --> 01:04:08.019 And you know, somebody who cares about young people, I do think part of that is because uh the typical youth pastor job is often not sustainable for anybody, um, not financially sustainable. 01:04:08.099 --> 01:04:08.260 Yeah. 01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:09.860 So they just can't make it. 01:04:09.940 --> 01:04:13.860 And so they move into another career or a different form of pastoral ministry. 01:04:13.940 --> 01:04:19.940 So, so yeah, there's

some brokenness inherently, uh, or some existing brokenness in how young people are. 01:04:20.500 --> 01:04:29.380 There's some existing brokenness in how young adults especially are entering ministry that we need to give them more mentoring, if we can, more financial support. 01:04:29.619 --> 01:04:33.700 I would say more training and education to degreed and non-degreed. 01:04:33.940 --> 01:04:36.820 So uh a much better on-ramp is what we need. 01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:39.460 Um, another research question. 01:04:39.700 --> 01:04:46.500 Uh, you know, I I'm interested a lot in how do people get formed spiritually? 01:04:46.659 --> 01:04:46.980 Yeah. 01:04:47.380 --> 01:04:52.420 Um most of that, most of what's written about that is written about adults. 01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:53.059 Yeah. 01:04:53.300 --> 01:05:01.059 Um, and there's been lots of stuff written over the last few decades about the role of spiritual practices and community and so on. 01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:04.420 Not as much around children or young people. 01:05:04.579 --> 01:05:04.900 Yeah. 01:05:05.139 --> 01:05:10.500 How do you think about approaching formation with young people? 01:05:10.659 --> 01:05:12.179 What should parents be thinking about? 01:05:12.340 --> 01:05:12.659 Yeah. 01:05:12.820 --> 01:05:15.220 Um, what's effective, what works, what doesn't work. 01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:15.619 Yeah. 01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:23.940 Well, the good news is that there is more work being done on this with both children and adolescents, thanks to the investment of the Lily Endowment. 01:05:24.099 --> 01:05:27.059 So they specifically have initiatives on children and worship. 01:05:27.139 --> 01:05:29.380 That's a major national initiative of theirs. 01:05:29.539 --> 01:05:34.420 Uh, and then uh faith in AI, how to form young people in the midst of an age of AI. 01:05:34.659 --> 01:05:38.019 So there's gonna be more and more resources out, definitely. 01:05:38.260 --> 01:05:41.619 I remember you probably remember an author, Larry Crab, psychologist. 01:05:42.099 --> 01:05:46.579 When he had kids, he actually bought an overhead projector for family devotions. 01:05:46.659 --> 01:05:46.820 Yes. 01:05:47.059 --> 01:05:48.019 I am not kidding. 01:05:48.179 --> 01:05:50.099 And apparently did not go all that well. 01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:51.059 Yeah, yeah. 01:05:51.300 --> 01:05:55.460 So uh when I was growing up, that's the kind of the people who talk about family devotions. 01:05:55.780 --> 01:05:58.420 Periodically, families would try them, they would always be a disaster. 01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:01.220 I don't know of any family that had them where they weren't great. 01:06:01.300 --> 01:06:05.700 Yeah, but I think a lot of parents feel probably a low level of guilt. 01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:06.260 Yeah. 01:06:06.500 --> 01:06:07.539 For all they're not doing. 01:06:07.780 --> 01:06:11.139 Yeah, for yeah, for for not knowing how do we help spiritually form our children. 01:06:11.380 --> 01:06:11.940 Yeah, yeah. 01:06:12.099 --> 01:06:18.019 So, you know, as you're talking, uh I think every family needs ideally would figure out what really works for them. 01:06:18.260 --> 01:06:20.659 Are they a family where it's more about discussion? 01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:31.460 You know, I have a colleague at Fuller who has young kids and Every Sunday they do act out church where the family, parents included, act out a scripture passage and then talk about it. 01:06:31.619 --> 01:06:33.700 Like that would not have worked with my husband. 01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:34.820 I would just say that. 01:06:35.059 --> 01:06:36.740 He's a more reserved engineer. 01:06:37.139 --> 01:06:39.700 But for this family, like act out church is great. 01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:41.059 My husband hates charades. 01:06:41.380 --> 01:06:45.539 Act Out Church would not have worked for the pals, but it certainly worked for this other family. 01:06:45.700 --> 01:06:48.099 So, so you know, are you a family that wants to talk about it? 01:06:48.260 --> 01:06:52.740 Are you a family that wants to explore God's creation more as a way to connect? 01:06:52.900 --> 01:06:53.220 Yeah. 01:06:53.619 --> 01:07:06.579 You know, I my because I know more about teenagers than I do children, I will say one of my favorite questions, in fact, I just asked my son about this uh recently and my daughter about this recently, is when do you feel closest to God? 01:07:06.820 --> 01:07:08.500 Oh, that's a great question. 01:07:09.220 --> 01:07:11.300 We should all be asking that question of each other, right? 01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:11.619 Yes. 01:07:11.780 --> 01:07:13.220 When do you feel closest to God? 01:07:13.539 --> 01:07:17.619 And then as a parent, how can I help my kid get more of that time? 01:07:18.260 --> 01:07:25.300 So, you know, when our kids were in our church's youth ministry, for one of our daughters, she felt closest to God when she was with Christian friends. 01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:27.940 She said, I feel closest to God, Mom, when I'm with friends from church. 01:07:28.099 --> 01:07:30.019 Okay, how do we make sure you get a lot of that time? 01:07:30.179 --> 01:07:33.700 Another one of our daughters said, I feel closest to God when I am in nature. 01:07:33.860 --> 01:07:35.539 She'd love to hang out in our backyard. 01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:37.700 How do we make sure she gets a lot of outdoors time? 01:07:37.860 --> 01:07:43.619 Our son would say, I feel closest to God uh when I'm leading worship, because he played guitar. 01:07:44.179 --> 01:07:47.139 So um, a confession here as a parent. 01:07:47.300 --> 01:07:51.300 So, in order to play guitar, he had to go to once-a-week worship practice. 01:07:51.460 --> 01:07:57.139 And before he got his driver's license, guess who had to drive him to worship practice on Thursday nights? 01:07:57.460 --> 01:07:58.900 Either me or my husband. 01:07:59.139 --> 01:08:03.940 And so, you know, there were times where uh Nathan, do you really know

I'm glad to say, really? 01:08:04.099 --> 01:08:04.980 Did you really have to go? 01:08:05.139 --> 01:08:07.059 Don't you kind of already know the songs? 01:08:07.220 --> 01:08:14.179 Um, but first off, he would say worship rehearsal was one of the times where he did feel closest to God because there was no audience. 01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:17.619 So it's the songs without any kind of pressure to perform. 01:08:17.859 --> 01:08:21.539 And then also that was allowed him to play on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights. 01:08:21.699 --> 01:08:31.539 And so, you know, I would suck it up as a parent and get my boy to worship practice most weeks, not every week, because I knew that's when he felt closest. 01:08:31.699 --> 01:08:36.019 So again, when is it for your family, your kid, when do you feel closest to God? 01:08:36.179 --> 01:08:38.099 I mean, for my husband and me, it's different. 01:08:38.260 --> 01:08:46.099 Yeah, I feel closest to God, like Bible on lap, journal in the other hand, you know, kind of your prototypical quiet time. 01:08:46.339 --> 01:08:49.139 My husband, he feels closest to God, hammer in hand. 01:08:49.299 --> 01:08:49.699 Yeah. 01:08:49.939 --> 01:08:51.859 He, you know, he loves serving. 01:08:51.939 --> 01:08:52.179 Yes. 01:08:52.339 --> 01:08:56.739 And so, how do I make sure that he gets all the service time that he needs and wants? 01:08:56.819 --> 01:08:59.939 And how do I make sure I have that time that I need in the morning? 01:09:00.259 --> 01:09:05.139 And then coming back to that initial thought, not judge each other, not how come you're not more like me. 01:09:05.299 --> 01:09:11.059 Oh, told I didn't think my husband was spiritual enough when we were dating because he didn't seek God like I did. 01:09:11.139 --> 01:09:11.299 Yeah. 01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:16.579 And instead, we've learned to learn from each other and appreciate that spirituality in each other. 01:09:16.979 --> 01:09:28.099 Kind of a hot question in a lot of circles, especially because there's been such a long decline of uh church attendance, belief in God, rise of the nuns, rise of what you guys call the ums. 01:09:28.259 --> 01:09:28.899 Yeah, yeah. 01:09:29.059 --> 01:09:32.419 Um, and then people are wondering now, has that ended? 01:09:32.500 --> 01:09:33.859 Is there revival? 01:09:34.019 --> 01:09:35.859 Yes, that's a question we get asked all the time. 01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:40.019 Yeah, and ums, by the way, uh we write about this in Future Focus Church. 01:09:40.179 --> 01:09:43.699 Ums are young people who you ask them, you know, are you connected with the church? 01:09:43.939 --> 01:09:48.899 Um usually not really, or kinda is the answer. 01:09:49.139 --> 01:09:55.379 Um, first off, this question of revival, we do get asked it quite a bit, uh, especially by leaders. 01:09:55.539 --> 01:09:57.939 And I appreciate what Ed Stetzer says. 01:09:58.019 --> 01:10:01.699 Uh, if you're wondering if you're in revival, you're probably not in revival. 01:10:01.859 --> 01:10:04.500 So, you know, let me just say, let's use that as a ground rule. 01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:10.500 Um, there are certainly some exciting bright spots in young people, especially on college campuses. 01:10:10.579 --> 01:10:17.219 I'm on the board of InterVarsity, InterVarsity crew and other more, you know, independent autonomous ministries. 01:10:17.299 --> 01:10:24.339 They're seeing some awesome surges in college campuses, you know, spontaneous water baptisms on college campuses. 01:10:24.500 --> 01:10:31.299 Um, you know, I know someone who's been doing college ministry who's getting a shoulder injury from all the baptisms that she's doing. 01:10:31.539 --> 01:10:31.939 That's pretty good. 01:10:32.179 --> 01:10:35.379 You know, so if you're gonna get injured, that's a good reason to get injured. 01:10:35.539 --> 01:10:39.059 So um, so there certainly are bright spots on college campuses. 01:10:39.299 --> 01:10:50.579 However, uh, if you look overall at religious participation in community as well as religious practices, we're not yet seeing a surge in young people. 01:10:50.739 --> 01:10:54.019 Um there are bright spots, college campuses, especially the South. 01:10:54.179 --> 01:11:03.059 But overall, if we're looking at 13 to 29-year-olds, there's some positive ticks to be sure, but but we would say we're not quite ready to call it revival. 01:11:03.299 --> 01:11:13.139 Um, I'll go back to our Gen Alpha work though, John, uh, because we we um interviewed not just kids who identified as Christians, but about 50% of our sample. 01:11:13.299 --> 01:11:18.419 So about 1,500 teenagers didn't identify as Christians, either nuns or different religions. 01:11:18.579 --> 01:11:28.179 Um and when we asked them about their openness to spirituality, uh, 41% were not open to spirituality, greater spirituality. 01:11:28.419 --> 01:11:31.299 But if we do the math, that means 59% are. 01:11:31.939 --> 01:11:32.179 Yeah. 01:11:32.339 --> 01:11:32.659 Wow. 01:11:32.979 --> 01:11:38.099 So we we see this generation as being very open to revival. 01:11:38.259 --> 01:11:49.379 I mean, maybe so post-Christian they're almost pre-Christian, um, more of a blank slate in some ways, not quite as hurt by the church, more of a blank slate, yeah, more open, especially to Jesus. 01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:50.500 Yeah, yeah. 01:11:50.739 --> 01:12:10.659 How about uh there's been a lot written about uh like the younger generation now engaged in less risky behavior, uh less drinking, less sexual involvement, so things that might avoid problems, but also might not necessarily be driven by virtue acquisition. 01:12:10.899 --> 01:12:16.019 Yeah how what are you learning about the role of risk in life and what that means? 01:12:16.659 --> 01:12:18.259 That is, thank you for mentioning that. 01:12:18.500 --> 01:12:20.419 You know, back to mental health. 01:12:20.500 --> 01:12:28.099 It's hard to know for sure that it's hard to point to any singular

cause that's leading to these mental health challenges with young people. 01:12:28.339 --> 01:12:35.299 And or, but um, there does seem to be a correlation with cell phones becoming more ubiquitous, more common. 01:12:35.619 --> 01:12:45.219 Right about that time, mental health risk behaviors increased, and other risk behaviors like drinking, sex, partying, behavioral, drugs, behavioral decreased. 01:12:45.299 --> 01:12:45.460 Yeah. 01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:54.979 So, in other words, the risk behaviors that one would engage in by themselves in their room when they see other people having a better time on a Friday night than they are, that's going up. 01:12:55.059 --> 01:12:58.899 Yeah, but the risk behaviors that involve engaging with others are going down. 01:12:59.219 --> 01:13:01.219 So, so that's one thing I want to say. 01:13:01.379 --> 01:13:09.779 The other thing I will say is we've been in the midst of our gen alpha research, we've been playing with, you know, what adjectives would we use to describe this generation? 01:13:10.019 --> 01:13:17.059 And one of the adjectives that's that leaders especially are very much resonating with is they are cautious. 01:13:17.379 --> 01:13:18.419 They are cautious. 01:13:18.659 --> 01:13:19.139 Interesting. 01:13:19.379 --> 01:13:26.500 This is less of a generation that wants to go change the world, like you know, some of us youth group kids from the 80s and 90s wanted to do. 01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:31.939 This is a generation, uh, you know, again, talking to youth pastors, talking to college workers. 01:13:32.099 --> 01:13:36.099 When they have a if there's a retreat coming up, a kid doesn't just sign up. 01:13:36.179 --> 01:13:40.099 Yeah, kid wants to know, okay, where are we gonna sleep and what's the food gonna be? 01:13:40.259 --> 01:13:44.019 And they just need a little bit more information to feel secure. 01:13:44.179 --> 01:13:54.579 So uh, you know, I appreciate that ministries are trying to offer more information and schedules of what's coming up and all that, um, so that young people feel safe and can take some riskier steps. 01:13:54.659 --> 01:13:59.219 So yeah, no, and it feels like something's off with the with the world. 01:14:00.099 --> 01:14:08.979 Uh developmentally cautious doesn't feel like what we would want for our young people or ourselves when we're younger. 01:14:09.299 --> 01:14:09.699 Yeah. 01:14:10.019 --> 01:14:16.819 You mentioned Jonathan Hyde, and we didn't really touch on that earlier, but I think that's I'm so glad that book has made the waves that it has. 01:14:17.219 --> 01:14:17.859 The anxious generation. 01:14:18.099 --> 01:14:18.819 Anxious generation. 01:14:18.979 --> 01:14:25.619 Yeah, I don't know of a book that's sparked more conversation about young people in the last few decades and more positive change. 01:14:25.779 --> 01:14:25.939 Yeah. 01:14:26.099 --> 01:14:32.179 Schools who are restricting cell phones and families who are, you know, waiting longer before kids get cell phones, et cetera. 01:14:32.259 --> 01:14:34.659 A lot of really good uh thoughts out of that. 01:14:34.899 --> 01:14:42.179 But you know, he talks about how this generation or young people in general want risk, but cell phones keep them inside. 01:14:42.259 --> 01:14:46.579 You know, the Atlantic has said go outside is being replaced with go online. 01:14:47.299 --> 01:14:47.779 Wow. 01:14:48.019 --> 01:14:57.939 There's different race online, but it's not like I don't know if this is connected, and I don't know if this is something that your research touches on or that you even would have thoughts about, but there's not much you don't have thoughts about. 01:14:58.019 --> 01:14:58.819 So I'm guessing it might. 01:14:59.059 --> 01:14:59.539 Good or bad. 01:14:59.779 --> 01:15:06.339 One of the one of the trends going on that, as I understand it, is basically unprecedented in human history is the decline in birth rates. 01:15:06.899 --> 01:15:07.219 Yeah. 01:15:07.539 --> 01:15:13.299 And uh in 1950, globally, uh women averaged about five children per woman. 01:15:13.460 --> 01:15:13.619 Yeah. 01:15:13.779 --> 01:15:16.259 Now it's down to 2.2, 2.1 is the replacement. 01:15:16.419 --> 01:15:16.659 Yeah. 01:15:16.819 --> 01:15:24.019 A lot of conversation about what's going on with that seems to be not just in the West, maybe a little bit predominantly there. 01:15:24.179 --> 01:15:24.500 Yeah, sure. 01:15:24.819 --> 01:15:28.179 People on the right are, you know, trad wives, you ought to have kids, that's your duty. 01:15:28.259 --> 01:15:28.419 Yeah. 01:15:28.579 --> 01:15:32.500 People on the left, it's because it's a dangerous world, people are afraid to bring kids in. 01:15:32.739 --> 01:15:36.339 However, it's it's arguably a less dangerous world than it's ever been before. 01:15:36.659 --> 01:15:37.699 Ah, right, right. 01:15:38.099 --> 01:15:40.500 Any thoughts about what's going on there? 01:15:40.579 --> 01:15:47.779 And in in what ways does that connect, if at all, to what scripture teaches, kind of a faith-infused view of life? 01:15:48.099 --> 01:15:49.139 Well, you said their thoughts. 01:15:49.379 --> 01:15:50.819 Well, you said I have thoughts about everything. 01:15:50.979 --> 01:15:53.859 I actually don't have many thoughts on birth rate, John. 01:15:54.259 --> 01:15:57.859 So um, but can I say a little bit more about Jonathan Height? 01:15:58.099 --> 01:15:59.299 Yeah, no, okay, awesome. 01:15:59.779 --> 01:16:04.339 Uh because this this became particularly relevant for um our family. 01:16:04.739 --> 01:16:06.979 Uh, my husband's an Eagle Scout. 01:16:07.299 --> 01:16:07.619 Wow. 01:16:07.859 --> 01:16:08.099 Yeah. 01:16:08.259 --> 01:16:10.099 So I've become a backpacker. 01:16:10.179 --> 01:16:10.419 Yeah. 01:16:10.579 --> 01:16:12.019 Because my husband's an Eagle Scout. 01:16:12.179 --> 01:16:17.619 So, you know, I joke that Dave's introduced me to backpacking and I've introduced him to a good hotel

concierge. 01:16:17.779 --> 01:16:20.819 So, you know, we've rubbed off on each other in a good way, I think. 01:16:21.059 --> 01:16:28.099 Um, so a couple summers ago, we took our kids uh because of Dave, largely, they love camping and backpacking. 01:16:28.179 --> 01:16:30.019 And so we took them on a backpacking trip. 01:16:30.179 --> 01:16:31.460 Each of them got to bring a friend. 01:16:31.619 --> 01:16:32.419 It was awesome. 01:16:32.500 --> 01:16:35.699 And the Sierra uh Nevada Mountains, just beautiful. 01:16:35.859 --> 01:16:39.299 That same summer, we were also able to take them to Cozumel. 01:16:39.779 --> 01:16:43.859 Um, and we did snorkeling, we did scuba diving because to where? 01:16:43.939 --> 01:16:44.739 Uh Cozumel. 01:16:45.139 --> 01:16:46.179 Cozumel is where? 01:16:46.339 --> 01:16:46.899 Oh, Mexico. 01:16:46.979 --> 01:16:48.339 Sorry, sorry, Coast of Mexico. 01:16:48.500 --> 01:16:48.659 Okay. 01:16:48.819 --> 01:16:59.299 So this amazing, you know, we had a great uh VRBO, Airbnb, view of the water, amazing food, snorkeling, scuba diving, because we're certified scuba, et cetera. 01:16:59.460 --> 01:17:13.460 And I asked them, because of this idea of Jonathan Height and kids getting involved in more wrists, I asked them, okay, guys, if you had to choose one of these vacations, backpacking or cosimo, which one would you choose? 01:17:13.539 --> 01:17:15.939 And I went to each three of my kids individually. 01:17:16.099 --> 01:17:18.419 All of them said, I don't know. 01:17:18.819 --> 01:17:22.659 Now, let me just say, backpacking is a heck of a lot cheaper than Cosimo. 01:17:23.539 --> 01:17:25.859 So we're doing more backpacking than kayaking. 01:17:26.019 --> 01:17:26.259 Yeah. 01:17:26.500 --> 01:17:32.179 But I think for my suburban middle class kids, backpacking feels risky. 01:17:32.259 --> 01:17:32.419 Yeah. 01:17:32.579 --> 01:17:37.299 You know, you have to figure out where you're gonna sleep, and all you have is what you've carried. 01:17:37.460 --> 01:17:44.019 And I think that's what draws them to backpacking, is they've had a decently protected life, and this feels more risky. 01:17:44.339 --> 01:17:45.939 Something in the human spirit wants to risk. 01:17:46.179 --> 01:17:46.500 Totally. 01:17:46.659 --> 01:17:53.619 And so for us as adults, you know, it doesn't have to be backpacking, but what is it that stretches our kids out of their comfort zone? 01:17:53.779 --> 01:17:55.699 Is it is it a new art class? 01:17:55.859 --> 01:17:57.059 Is it a new relationship? 01:17:57.219 --> 01:17:59.699 You know, whatever it might be, is it a new hobby? 01:17:59.859 --> 01:18:01.299 Is it serving somewhere new? 01:18:01.379 --> 01:18:03.379 Is it interacting with people who are unhoused? 01:18:03.460 --> 01:18:10.899 You know, whatever it might be, can we offer young people the adult support, that adult accompaniment in the midst of the risk? 01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:20.099 Which just comes back to um caring and being with and actually observing, caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults, accompanying young people in life and faith. 01:18:20.419 --> 01:18:28.659 So, Kara, we have been talking a lot about uh the spiritual formation of other people, pastors, church leaders, young people or so. 01:18:28.819 --> 01:18:28.979 Yeah. 01:18:29.219 --> 01:18:30.579 Um, let's make it personal. 01:18:30.819 --> 01:18:39.219 Uh uh generally, when I get kind of to the end of these conversations, I'll just want to know from somebody um, how have you been being formed? 01:18:39.379 --> 01:18:40.579 What have you found helpful? 01:18:40.659 --> 01:18:46.899 What's going on in the heart and character and spirit of Carapow these days? 01:18:47.139 --> 01:18:47.779 Yeah. 01:18:48.099 --> 01:18:58.579 So normally I can answer that by showing you my cell phone because my wallpaper for my cell phone often expresses what I'm learning about these days. 01:18:58.659 --> 01:19:03.619 And so if we were to look at my phone, um, it would have three short sentences on it. 01:19:03.939 --> 01:19:08.419 Uh, three or four years ago, our family was in Italy. 01:19:08.659 --> 01:19:12.979 And night number two, I woke up at like four in the morning and couldn't sleep. 01:19:13.299 --> 01:19:17.059 And as a parent of young adults, I was worrying about my kids. 01:19:17.219 --> 01:19:21.059 There were some stressful situations at Fuller I was worrying about. 01:19:21.379 --> 01:19:29.379 And I've never heard God speak audibly, but I felt like the Holy Spirit gave me three sentences at four in the morning in Rome. 01:19:29.699 --> 01:19:36.179 Um this is beyond you, let me carry you and watch me work. 01:19:36.979 --> 01:19:40.500 This is beyond you, let me carry you and watch me work. 01:19:40.899 --> 01:19:45.619 And just this morning, as I was praying about a situation at Fuller, it's so interesting. 01:19:45.699 --> 01:19:49.539 I feel like one of those three sentences feels particularly poignant. 01:19:49.859 --> 01:19:53.859 So as I was praying about something, I felt like, oh, this is beyond me. 01:19:53.939 --> 01:19:56.979 And I can just rest that this is beyond me. 01:19:57.219 --> 01:20:01.539 Other times I feel like God's pointing me toward uh watch me work. 01:20:02.019 --> 01:20:08.019 You know, any one of those three sentences will be like the bold italic capital letter sentence for me. 01:20:08.179 --> 01:20:11.539 So yeah, that it's been my mantra really for the last three or four years. 01:20:11.619 --> 01:20:14.579 This is beyond you, let me carry you, watch me work. 01:20:14.899 --> 01:20:35.699 And it is amazing how um sometimes naming, I have different words for it, but I thought like a thought like this is beyond you, yeah, brings help and some kind of grace or energy or power or something that if I don't name it, it's beyond me, but it feels crippling. 01:20:35.859 --> 01:20:40.019 And then when I can just say those words, uh it's okay. 01:20:40.259 --> 01:20:41.379 Yeah, yeah. 01:20:41.539 --> 01:20:49.699 This is beyond me, but the implication is it's not beyond God, and that's what helps me hold the stress I navigate. 01:20:50.819 --> 01:20:51.699 I I love those. 01:20:51.859 --> 01:20:54.659 We will put those in the show notes and make them available. 01:20:54.979 --> 01:20:55.139 Yeah. 01:20:55.619 --> 01:20:56.419 Thank you. 01:20:57.539 --> 01:21:02.979 Well, uh, this has been a super rich conversation, and um, I am most grateful. 01:21:03.139 --> 01:21:05.699 Look forward to doing it again sometime if you're up for it. 01:21:06.019 --> 01:21:07.539 I would love that anytime.