EP 309: Doug Crandall- From West Point to Leadership Expert:Building Teams with Great Communication의 전체 녹취록

00:04:14.194 And the reason I bring all that up is he had almost a romantic notion of West Point because it changed his life and skipped over some of just the things that were really hard. 61 00:04:15.234 --> 00:04:23.697 It's changed a bit since, since certainly since my dad went there, even since when I went there to focus a little bit away from hazing and more on leader development. 62 00:04:24.217 --> 00:04:25.117 But it was really hard. 63 00:04:25.257 --> 00:04:25.817 I was lonely. 64 00:04:25.837 --> 00:04:27.278 I was across the country. 65 00:04:28.450 --> 00:04:29.891 And you just, you get put through the grind. 66 00:04:29.911 --> 00:04:31.492 You're getting yelled a lot that first year. 67 00:04:31.512 --> 00:04:34.434 So a lot of those things were super hard. 68 00:04:34.894 --> 00:04:39.036 I mentioned the second part, cause I got a chance to go back there and teach and see it from a different perspective. 69 00:04:39.636 --> 00:04:46.120 And when I was there teaching in the early two thousands, got to see how, what a huge part reflection is in leader development. 70 00:04:46.608 --> 00:04:51.012 And I bring that up because you're talking about kind of people just, you know, they do great at their jobs. 71 00:04:51.052 --> 00:04:59.259 We see a lot of that in the health care industry where a great doctor becomes the chief of a clinic or a chief resident, and they've never been taught to lead. 72 00:04:59.479 --> 00:05:01.060 And so it's sort of unintentional. 73 00:05:01.080 --> 00:05:04.643 They're just going through the motions or not really thinking about how they're impacting other people. 74 00:05:05.284 --> 00:05:09.047 And that second chance to teach at West Point, really the whole place is this laboratory. 75 00:05:09.910 --> 00:05:17.214 through sports, through summer leadership opportunities, even during the academic year, you're given leadership positions at West Point. 76 00:05:17.695 --> 00:05:27.881 And really the goal is for you to make mistakes, be thrown in situations that aren't life or death, and then to process what you're learning from those situations. 77 00:05:27.921 --> 00:05:34.865 And we have essays to that effect in our core leadership class, where you think about what happened this summer, what did I learn from that as a lead? 78 00:05:39.647 --> 00:05:39.827 Peter. 79 00:05:41.509 --> 00:05:41.729 Yeah. 80 00:05:42.149 --> 00:05:44.211 Are you still with me? 81 00:05:44.751 --> 00:05:44.971 Yeah. 82 00:05:45.151 --> 00:05:47.093 Yeah, you froze for just half a second. 83 00:05:47.653 --> 00:05:50.055 Yeah, no, no, I get everything you're trying to say. 84 00:05:50.255 --> 00:06:02.385 And, you know, I assume, I'm just having a comment on this, even though I'm assuming that you know this and this is kind of what you just said, that you can't effectively lead unless you lead yourself first. 85 00:06:02.865 --> 00:06:03.066 Yeah. 86 00:06:03.426 --> 00:06:07.269 And that comes with a whole set of core values in your North store and things like that. 87 00:06:07.309 --> 00:06:08.150 So comment on that. 88 00:06:08.773 --> 00:06:09.594 Yeah, absolutely. 89 00:06:09.614 --> 00:06:15.257 I mean, in all of these programs we've been doing for a couple of decades now, we start almost everywhere we go. 90 00:06:15.297 --> 00:06:16.678 It's an immutable part of what we do. 91 00:06:16.718 --> 00:06:18.860 And we do half-day stuff to six-month stuff. 92 00:06:18.960 --> 00:06:23.963 But even when we're doing half-day stuff, at least a little bit on what do I believe and why do I believe it? 93 00:06:23.983 --> 00:06:30.327 What are the four or five things that no matter what, I'm not going to compromise on? 94 00:06:30.347 --> 00:06:31.848 They're going to be part of who I am. 95 00:06:32.649 --> 00:06:36.071 A certain way that we treat people or integrity, whatever it might be. 96 00:06:36.818 --> 00:06:41.620 And we focus on that so much because then the rest of leadership is about the people you're leading. 97 00:06:41.760 --> 00:06:49.662 You know, does this person, I mean, does this person actually like to be pushed really hard or does this person need to be handled a little bit differently? 98 00:06:49.922 --> 00:07:01.426 People I think bring so much and think, how am I going to lead without thinking about the people they're actually leading and how they need to adapt each person to adapt to a group or adapt to the situation, what the mission is at hand. 99 00:07:01.946 --> 00:07:06.348 And so, yeah, that, that first part though, is before you do any of that, locking in, like, what do I believe? 100 00:07:07.046 --> 00:07:07.847 Why do I believe it? 101 00:07:08.328 --> 00:07:09.529 How did you get that gig? 102 00:07:09.910 --> 00:07:15.116 You know, you talked about that second placement in your life. 103 00:07:15.156 --> 00:07:18.160 First, it was a student and then now as a teacher. 104 00:07:18.180 --> 00:07:19.181 How did you get that gig? 105 00:07:19.942 --> 00:07:21.745 Yeah, it's a cool model at the academy. 106 00:07:21.825 --> 00:07:23.587 About two-thirds of the faculty were, 107 00:07:24.152 --> 00:07:34.996 are active duty young, you know, 31, 32 year old army officers who've been sent to get master's degrees and come back to teach, come back to teach calculus, come back to teach history. 108 00:07:35.436 --> 00:07:38.358 I had the great opportunity to come back and teach the core leadership class. 109 00:07:39.198 --> 00:07:43.059 You apply, it's pretty competitive process for active duty army officers. 110 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:49.662 But I was really put onto it, as I mentioned, by my dad, he had gotten out of the army after his initial service commitment in the late 50s. 111 00:07:50.182 --> 00:07:52.123 But I'd said one thing he wished he'd always done was 112 00:07:52.790 --> 00:07:54.391 gone back to West Point and taught. 113 00:07:55.011 --> 00:08:02.613 Um, and it really, for me, was a choice between kind of the same

thing, getting out of the army in the late nineties, uh, or applying to teach at West Point. 114 00:08:02.633 --> 00:08:04.354 So I was given that chance. 115 00:08:04.374 --> 00:08:11.036 I actually got an incredible chance just two years ago to go back as a civilian, which is not, not as common and not a systemic process. 116 00:08:11.136 --> 00:08:20.980 I just saw on a buddy's LinkedIn post that they were looking for somebody, uh, literally just for 10 months to come, uh, no moving expenses, just come teach this leadership class for 10 months. 117 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:21.940 Cause they had a hole to fill. 118 00:08:21.960 --> 00:08:22.120 So. 119 00:08:22.555 --> 00:08:27.776 have had a few great opportunities to go back there and be immersed in the leader development process there. 120 00:08:28.076 --> 00:08:35.898 And what do you find about today's student compared to way back when we were going? 121 00:08:35.938 --> 00:08:39.659 Has that changed as the personalities and different kid that's growing up? 122 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.120 There's so much more, you know, we grew up in an era where there was no cell phones, right? 123 00:08:44.260 --> 00:08:48.801 There's no notifications, there's no internet, there's, you know, it was all dial up. 124 00:08:48.821 --> 00:08:50.722 And I mean, the world is just 125 00:08:52.237 --> 00:08:53.998 you know, even the way we fight war, right? 126 00:08:54.018 --> 00:08:54.678 With drones. 127 00:08:54.758 --> 00:08:59.139 I mean, flying these things that look like 747s and they're carrying bombs and there's no pilot on board. 128 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:00.019 I mean, it's insane. 129 00:09:00.540 --> 00:09:07.422 So like, what is that type of kid today that maybe it's the same kid? 130 00:09:07.802 --> 00:09:17.144 Yeah, Mark, essentially, I think there's probably people who would disagree with me, but I, at least in West Point Service Academy and probably some other places where you got to do, you got to really do really hard stuff. 131 00:09:17.164 --> 00:09:18.905 I mean, you're, you are getting up at, 132 00:09:19.193 --> 00:09:22.517 545 every day, pretty much for the entire four years. 133 00:09:22.537 --> 00:09:23.999 You might be able to push that till 605. 134 00:09:24.019 --> 00:09:28.024 You're like, but you're getting up, you're going to bed pretty much at midnight. 135 00:09:28.084 --> 00:09:29.786 You're taking 20 credits a semester. 136 00:09:30.647 --> 00:09:33.090 I found that they really hadn't changed in my opinion. 137 00:09:33.410 --> 00:09:37.435 Maybe it's the way I was looking upon them, but I'll take for example, 138 00:09:38.446 --> 00:09:42.430 United States Army's Ranger School, which I will say immediately I am not a graduate of. 139 00:09:43.431 --> 00:09:44.471 I did not go through it. 140 00:09:44.652 --> 00:09:48.555 It's primarily an infantry school, but a lot of non-infantry soldiers go through it. 141 00:09:48.875 --> 00:09:54.160 But it's 60 days at a minimum out in the woods, in Georgia, in Florida. 142 00:09:55.346 --> 00:10:03.008 almost no sleep, almost no food, and you get pushed to the brink to get through this army ranger infantry school. 143 00:10:03.369 --> 00:10:04.089 That hasn't changed. 144 00:10:04.149 --> 00:10:05.329 I mean, it might have changed a little bit. 145 00:10:05.349 --> 00:10:10.731 Some people would argue with that, but it really, the structure of that, no food, no sleep, that hasn't changed in decades. 146 00:10:11.051 --> 00:10:19.714 And so the kids that went through it in the 90s, the kids that went through in the 70s have to be pretty much the same makeup as some of the kids that I taught. 147 00:10:19.754 --> 00:10:22.054 I just went to a graduation for that school in the spring. 148 00:10:22.495 --> 00:10:23.455 They went through it this time. 149 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:29.202 I mean, I think kids that are signed up to serve the country and do hard stuff like that haven't changed a ton. 150 00:10:29.742 --> 00:10:39.808 One thing that I did see, I almost point to the culture of the academy rather than the leaders, the young leaders that are there, is the willingness to correct somebody else is probably less than it used to be. 151 00:10:40.248 --> 00:10:46.511 The school used to be built around crushing plebs with discipline. 152 00:10:46.551 --> 00:10:47.432 Plebs are freshmen. 153 00:10:47.772 --> 00:10:49.313 Crushing those freshmen with discipline. 154 00:10:49.973 --> 00:10:53.335 And there wasn't really a problem of people telling somebody else what to do. 155 00:10:54.447 --> 00:11:02.453 Kids are a little friendlier now is the way I would put it, maybe a little more social because of their phones, but they were just more hesitant to hold others accountable from what I saw. 156 00:11:02.733 --> 00:11:11.638 That concerned me a little bit because part of your job when you're a 23-year-old lieutenant is to, if you have to, hold a more experienced, non-commissioned officer accountable. 157 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:18.543 But overall, I saw a great group of young men and women that didn't really seem much different to me. 158 00:11:19.087 --> 00:11:28.254 Yeah, I mean, to me, that kind of, when you talk about that, I go back a little bit to this environment where everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets a ribbon, right? 159 00:11:28.394 --> 00:11:32.217 So there's either, you know, when you and I were growing up, there's either a winner or a loser. 160 00:11:32.398 --> 00:11:36.861 And so you either won the championship and this is like little league or you didn't. 161 00:11:37.401 --> 00:11:43.306 And you didn't, even if you took fifth place, you still didn't get a trophy and a ribbon for participation, right? 162 00:11:43.626 --> 00:11:46.709 It's just all part of the thing of goal setting and going forward. 163 00:11:47.149 --> 00:11:50.032 And I noticed a little bit of the same thing at the UW. 164 00:11:50.072 --> 00:11:52.234 You know, at the end of the day, it

gets down to the fundamentals. 165 00:11:52.314 --> 00:11:54.737 And I'm talking about the football team now. 166 00:11:54.917 --> 00:11:56.799 And so you still got to work. 167 00:11:56.859 --> 00:11:57.920 You still got to grind. 168 00:11:58.240 --> 00:11:59.602 Now they're doing it earlier. 169 00:11:59.622 --> 00:12:10.713 And maybe it's changed a little bit in terms of all the the the the the access that they have to gyms and coaches and select football and those types of things. 170 00:12:11.173 --> 00:12:14.934 But I can identify with what you said. 171 00:12:15.294 --> 00:12:18.814 It takes a certain kind of kid to get into those military. 172 00:12:18.854 --> 00:12:22.755 You have to have the senators typically write a letter of recommendation and things like this. 173 00:12:23.475 --> 00:12:35.957 And so whether it's the Air Force or it's going to West Point or something like that, I mean, it's just it does take a special kind of breed of kid of maturity to, I think, for that age 17 to go, you know what? 174 00:12:36.117 --> 00:12:38.578 I can't wait to go sign up for this thing and get my ass chewed. 175 00:12:39.158 --> 00:12:39.918 Yeah, absolutely. 176 00:12:39.958 --> 00:12:40.138 Right. 177 00:12:40.818 --> 00:12:41.199 For sure. 178 00:12:41.459 --> 00:12:49.521 And then he's throwing like, I think about a couple of the athletes I taught and I got real close to a basketball player who was still going through the same stuff of not getting the playing time he wanted. 179 00:12:50.021 --> 00:12:56.422 In the meantime, he's trying to get his homework done for, you know, the paper he had to write for my class and just this kid's tough as nails. 180 00:12:56.482 --> 00:13:01.583 I mean, it gave me hope, honestly, that our future's in good hands, like truly. 181 00:13:02.024 --> 00:13:02.304 Yeah. 182 00:13:02.884 --> 00:13:03.264 Okay. 183 00:13:03.304 --> 00:13:06.185 So let's go back to the book, Building or Diminishing. 184 00:13:06.285 --> 00:13:07.565 Why did you write this book? 185 00:13:08.420 --> 00:13:10.541 Yeah, it's Mark's interesting. 186 00:13:11.181 --> 00:13:13.462 I think we have four kids. 187 00:13:14.562 --> 00:13:20.884 We're empty nesters now for the last three years of our youngest son's kind of high school experience. 188 00:13:20.904 --> 00:13:23.125 He lived with just his mom and I, you know, he's the last one. 189 00:13:23.585 --> 00:13:25.366 So we got to spend a lot of up close time with him. 190 00:13:25.386 --> 00:13:30.928 And I just started thinking to myself as I was leading him because parenting is absolutely a leadership endeavor. 191 00:13:31.728 --> 00:13:34.749 I started thinking as should I say this to him or not? 192 00:13:34.769 --> 00:13:36.829 Like, does it do him any good for me to say this? 193 00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:38.270 And it's really kind of 194 00:13:38.933 --> 00:13:42.034 Unfortunately, maybe for the first, our oldest son. 195 00:13:42.074 --> 00:13:45.214 And then as you go along, you just learn stuff through experience and reflection. 196 00:13:45.314 --> 00:13:51.156 But, uh, so I started saying to myself, am I building or diminishing him with, with what I'm saying? 197 00:13:51.676 --> 00:13:57.377 And if I'm not building him and building, as we get into in the book can mean I'm pushing you because I think you can do better. 198 00:13:57.457 --> 00:13:58.657 Like I expect more of you. 199 00:13:58.697 --> 00:14:02.998 It's not, it's not a soft concept, but is there a purpose in what I'm saying? 200 00:14:03.829 --> 00:14:10.270 And I threw that on a slide one day when we were teaching, really teaching, talking about leading others and meeting people where they're at. 201 00:14:11.150 --> 00:14:12.691 And it really resonated with the group. 202 00:14:13.071 --> 00:14:21.032 Um, I laid this in with a, a quote actually from a mentor of mine, a guy named Bruce Brown, um, actually, uh, Jim Mora would know Bruce Brown. 203 00:14:21.072 --> 00:14:29.254 I think he probably taught Jim when Jim was in junior high and Bruce, uh, a quote I saw he posted on LinkedIn said the most effective leaders 204 00:14:29.798 --> 00:14:32.761 are unapologetically demanding and relentlessly positive. 205 00:14:33.422 --> 00:14:39.468 And so I was like, shoot, well, then everything that you're saying should be kind of a combination of those things as a leader. 206 00:14:40.389 --> 00:14:42.611 And we started to build a keynote out of it. 207 00:14:43.031 --> 00:14:46.695 And in a six months program that we were teaching in North Carolina a couple of years ago, 208 00:14:47.285 --> 00:14:54.430 There was a person who came up at the end of the program and said that that question, like think to yourself, am I building or diminishing? 209 00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:59.112 Ask yourself that when you're leading other people was the most impactful part of our program. 210 00:14:59.373 --> 00:15:04.496 And we really leave it up to people after six months together to reflect and take their own lessons away. 211 00:15:04.596 --> 00:15:06.177 What was the most important part of this? 212 00:15:06.817 --> 00:15:07.037 So. 213 00:15:07.978 --> 00:15:09.359 I just it just started to stick. 214 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.322 I saw it sticking with people and decided to build it into a book. 215 00:15:13.342 --> 00:15:21.647 And it's really a book about my own journey to to aspire to be a builder, to to build this question into my habit of leadership. 216 00:15:21.727 --> 00:15:22.347 One of the things that 217 00:15:23.913 --> 00:15:27.695 that I saw and I experienced a lot and I was very blessed and fortunate. 218 00:15:28.376 --> 00:15:32.178 Through a lot of hard work, but to make it all the way to the top of the rung to be in the NFL. 219 00:15:32.378 --> 00:15:39.702 And so I got to experience a lot of coaches and it was interesting because going back to what you were saying about your building or diminishing 220 00:15:40.902 --> 00:15:44.004 there was

either positive coaching or negative coaching. 221 00:15:44.684 --> 00:15:54.488 And like I could have done, I could have had the most insane catch on the field in the last moments under extreme pressure, fans going cuckoo, 222 00:15:55.288 --> 00:16:00.133 And he'd find the one thing that I did wrong versus just, you know, like build on what we did. 223 00:16:00.173 --> 00:16:04.317 And by the way, we can also work on this part a little bit and just constantly focus on that. 224 00:16:04.857 --> 00:16:19.792 And I think what you said is that, and for anybody that's listening to this, and I'm saying this now after running a big part of Sports Illustrated for the last 10 years and over 300 different people within that organization on the team network, is that each and every single person, 225 00:16:21.345 --> 00:16:22.206 is driven differently. 226 00:16:22.806 --> 00:16:30.790 And you got to really understand, you know, personalities and what, what are you going to be able to get the most amount of juice over? 227 00:16:31.150 --> 00:16:37.874 Cause not all personalities like can hear you or respond to you the same way that you want that kind of result on the other side of it. 228 00:16:39.075 --> 00:16:40.015 A hundred percent Mark. 229 00:16:40.035 --> 00:16:40.675 And that is it. 230 00:16:40.755 --> 00:16:42.216 And that's a challenge of the leader either way. 231 00:16:42.276 --> 00:16:42.476 Right. 232 00:16:42.536 --> 00:16:50.821 I mean, if, uh, if you're used to being super positive and I thought about this, I coached high school basketball for a number of years, coached my kids, about 20 years of coaching under my belt. 233 00:16:50.981 --> 00:16:51.101 Um, 234 00:16:51.457 --> 00:16:54.219 which was another journey of just trying to get better all the time. 235 00:16:54.660 --> 00:16:59.924 But even in writing this book, I looked back and thought about a couple of players who I was really relationship focused. 236 00:16:59.984 --> 00:17:09.391 And I was good at building their confidence, but I watched them go into like D1, one of them going to become a D1 college basketball player who became first team all conference in like a mid-major. 237 00:17:09.952 --> 00:17:17.678 And I saw her coach really push her in a way I think I didn't and realized, huh, like I was being who I thought, like, you know, who I wanted to be. 238 00:17:17.738 --> 00:17:19.780 I wanted to be building her up in practice. 239 00:17:20.452 --> 00:17:24.876 But I think she really, in certain ways, that was helpful to her, but she wanted to be pushed as well. 240 00:17:24.916 --> 00:17:25.957 So it's both ways. 241 00:17:26.097 --> 00:17:26.478 I mean, it's. 242 00:17:27.437 --> 00:17:34.341 It's really an important part of leading, like really stepping back and not being about you, but it being about what the people you lead need. 243 00:17:34.641 --> 00:17:40.004 Well, I think sometimes too, expectations and transparency are key in everything that we're talking about here, right? 244 00:17:40.384 --> 00:17:46.147 So going up to that player, that example that you just talked about and go, look, I'm going to push your ass like you've never been pushing. 245 00:17:46.187 --> 00:17:54.912 It's going to come across as like mean and heartfelt, but I'm trying to get you because I think you have that potential to go to X spot, you know, the WNBA or, you know, 246 00:17:57.113 --> 00:17:58.815 college or whatever that you're talking about. 247 00:17:58.915 --> 00:18:01.638 And in order to do that, I need to push these certain buttons. 248 00:18:01.698 --> 00:18:04.440 And so I just wanted to set that expectation up front. 249 00:18:04.721 --> 00:18:05.241 Are we good? 250 00:18:05.642 --> 00:18:06.202 Yeah, we're good. 251 00:18:06.522 --> 00:18:06.743 Great. 252 00:18:06.823 --> 00:18:07.443 I love that. 253 00:18:07.684 --> 00:18:08.504 Yeah, I love that. 254 00:18:08.524 --> 00:18:09.966 It's a wonderful point for sure. 255 00:18:10.006 --> 00:18:11.848 Just that little thing is a huge difference. 256 00:18:12.628 --> 00:18:20.375 So kind of let's jump back into to what what, you know, how does our communication land and what to expect? 257 00:18:20.815 --> 00:18:21.036 Right. 258 00:18:21.536 --> 00:18:29.383 And you in this book point out that there's some like four, essentially for these four different levels. 259 00:18:29.503 --> 00:18:32.125 I'll call them and you can you can redefine these here in a second. 260 00:18:32.205 --> 00:18:35.628 A builder, a driver, a cheerleader or a belittler. 261 00:18:36.469 --> 00:18:38.230 So that's kind of what we just talked about, right? 262 00:18:38.631 --> 00:18:41.673 If you're not leading in the right way and it's not positive, then it's negative. 263 00:18:41.733 --> 00:18:42.693 So it's the opposite of that. 264 00:18:42.993 --> 00:18:47.316 So builder, driver, cheerleader, and then you knock people down. 265 00:18:47.616 --> 00:18:54.581 So just walk me through that in terms of how we all kind of communicate, you know, because people that listen to this podcast, and there's quite a few that do. 266 00:18:55.822 --> 00:19:00.425 I think they, I think just we always pull things out and like you're, you're, you're 267 00:19:00.665 --> 00:19:06.490 You're asking yourself, say, if you're going in enough effort to go listen to somebody's podcast, and I've been doing this now, you'll be like 310. 268 00:19:06.510 --> 00:19:08.892 So that's a lot of episodes, right? 269 00:19:09.513 --> 00:19:15.718 And it's like, what kind of nugget can I extract that's going to make me a better person and a better leader? 270 00:19:16.018 --> 00:19:16.899 So let's talk about those. 271 00:19:16.939 --> 00:19:18.060 Builder, driver, cheerleader. 272 00:19:18.761 --> 00:19:19.161 Be leader. 273 00:19:19.201 --> 00:19:20.102 Yeah, you bet, Mark. 274 00:19:20.122 --> 00:19:22.083 And I do this all the time. 275 00:19:22.123 --> 00:19:24.926 I might overqualify it, but I'm not huge on

labeling people. 276 00:19:24.946 --> 00:19:26.127 I actually say that in the book. 277 00:19:26.567 --> 00:19:27.428 At the same time. 278 00:19:28.464 --> 00:19:31.667 this construct like this is how a lot of people think. 279 00:19:31.707 --> 00:19:36.712 So it's done to be helpful and as a reflective tool and literally say in the book, not to put anybody in a box. 280 00:19:37.233 --> 00:19:42.839 But I have seen it with some really high level people, some friends who've just sent me text messages after reading the book. 281 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:44.840 help people think about where they're at. 282 00:19:44.860 --> 00:19:51.406 And the two most important quadrants in that grid, I think are the cheerleader and the driver. 283 00:19:51.506 --> 00:19:54.688 And so it just has two axes. 284 00:19:54.748 --> 00:19:56.670 And one of them is how we communicate. 285 00:19:56.770 --> 00:20:03.615 Do we tend to be more building in our communication or diminishing, or are we always telling people that they need to get better, you know, that they're not doing good enough? 286 00:20:04.316 --> 00:20:08.880 Or are we finding what people are doing right, giving them the confidence and they can get stuff done? 287 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.662 I would say even to what you just said earlier about that expectation, 288 00:20:12.138 --> 00:20:13.580 is building type communication. 289 00:20:13.600 --> 00:20:17.886 I'm going to come up to you and say, Hey, I'm going to be pushing you, but it's, but it's because I see something in you. 290 00:20:18.307 --> 00:20:25.617 So it's not about a particular, you have to be this way or whatever, but, but thinking about the words that come out of your mouth, even, 291 00:20:26.297 --> 00:20:28.398 We go to things like how fast you answer a text. 292 00:20:28.478 --> 00:20:31.039 I mean, I think all of us, some of us are neurotic. 293 00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:34.741 And if I text somebody and I don't hear back from him for days, I'm wondering what they're thinking. 294 00:20:35.281 --> 00:20:35.921 That's my lead. 295 00:20:36.121 --> 00:20:37.222 That's my leader. 296 00:20:37.242 --> 00:20:38.242 I'm really thinking about it. 297 00:20:38.262 --> 00:20:39.943 Like, why hasn't she texted me back? 298 00:20:39.983 --> 00:20:49.587 So we point to some of those examples, but drivers in the top left tend to have like diminishing communication or just don't really tell you're doing a good job, but super high 299 00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:55.814 And they get results and they can actually use the example of Herb Brooks from the 1980 Olympic hockey team. 300 00:20:56.134 --> 00:21:00.778 And I do that on purpose to show this isn't, I'm not trying to say like this is bad or whatever. 301 00:21:00.798 --> 00:21:01.999 It's just a reflective tool. 302 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:02.799 He had a mission. 303 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:04.160 They had six months. 304 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.483 He picked a group of hockey players that he knew he

could drive. 305 00:21:07.853 --> 00:21:08.394 And he drove them. 306 00:21:08.474 --> 00:21:10.396 And he never told them they were doing a good job. 307 00:21:10.457 --> 00:21:14.522 You can watch the Netflix documentary and see that they never really heard. 308 00:21:14.542 --> 00:21:17.506 The guy, I mean, quote unquote, the guy was a total dick. 309 00:21:17.606 --> 00:21:18.768 I mean, absolutely. 310 00:21:18.808 --> 00:21:19.028 Right. 311 00:21:19.088 --> 00:21:20.711 I mean, he was just an ass. 312 00:21:21.472 --> 00:21:24.816 And the interesting thing about that documentary is that 313 00:21:26.135 --> 00:21:30.157 the players I don't think really got it until almost to the end. 314 00:21:30.177 --> 00:21:31.118 Right. 315 00:21:31.318 --> 00:21:38.462 What he was actually trying to do to then for them to all collectively, you know, win that award, which was the gold medal back in 1980. 316 00:21:39.363 --> 00:21:39.863 Absolutely. 317 00:21:39.883 --> 00:21:42.825 And it's funny because you can't say, you know, you can't question him. 318 00:21:42.845 --> 00:21:44.026 And I, I love that event. 319 00:21:44.046 --> 00:21:49.349 I use it on purpose because it was incredible, but could he have even been a little more effective? 320 00:21:49.369 --> 00:21:54.572 If he told him at the outset, like what he was doing or just occasionally thrown in like, Hey, I believe in you or whatever it might be. 321 00:21:54.592 --> 00:21:54.652 Um, 322 00:21:55.387 --> 00:21:56.867 but really reflective tool. 323 00:21:57.347 --> 00:21:59.928 You move down kind of kitty corner to cheerleader. 324 00:21:59.968 --> 00:22:15.472 And these are people who are constantly building your confidence, building a relationship, telling you can do it, but rarely pushing you to achieve more or sometimes like don't have the tough conversations because they don't wanna hurt your feelings or they don't, whatever it might be. 325 00:22:15.492 --> 00:22:16.372 And so, 326 00:22:17.293 --> 00:22:21.858 just putting those out there, those to aspire to builder, which is in the top right, where I do both. 327 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:28.626 Like I push you, I'm constantly telling you that we expect excellence, we're gonna win, we're gonna climb mountains. 328 00:22:29.433 --> 00:22:30.594 And also, I believe in you. 329 00:22:31.315 --> 00:22:32.576 You did well yesterday. 330 00:22:32.596 --> 00:22:33.476 Hey, fix this. 331 00:22:34.117 --> 00:22:35.098 You're better than that. 332 00:22:35.498 --> 00:22:41.983 Like the ways that communicate that get us to show I believe in you at the same time, I'm going to be relentlessly positive. 333 00:22:42.644 --> 00:22:44.606 And then the bottom left is below. 334 00:22:44.906 --> 00:22:45.707 Hold on. 335 00:22:45.847 --> 00:22:47.808 Let me jump into that really quick. 336 00:22:48.109 --> 00:22:52.272 So as you brought his name up earlier, so I'll bring it up right now, Jim Moore. 337 00:22:52.292 --> 00:22:53.013 So Jim Moore, Jr.,

338 00:22:53.593 --> 00:22:58.975 head coach now at Colorado State, has been in the NFL as a head coach and UCLA and other places. 339 00:22:59.035 --> 00:23:00.995 But he's my best friend. 340 00:23:01.015 --> 00:23:04.236 And I'm actually heading out to his first game here in a couple of weeks. 341 00:23:05.117 --> 00:23:06.517 And we talked about this stuff all the time. 342 00:23:06.577 --> 00:23:06.777 Right. 343 00:23:06.797 --> 00:23:07.757 We love talking about this stuff. 344 00:23:07.877 --> 00:23:12.059 And I think there's a lot of super positive coaches that are out there, but don't survive it. 345 00:23:12.159 --> 00:23:19.421 The reason why Jim is the new head coach at Colorado State is because the guy before him, who is a great coach and a good dude and super positive, 346 00:23:20.201 --> 00:23:25.664 And I'm not saying I don't know anything about the program other than at the end of the day, you know, they lost over a series of years. 347 00:23:25.684 --> 00:23:33.748 And because it's so so based on wins and losses and revenue and everything else that you win, you stay and you lose and you get fired. 348 00:23:33.808 --> 00:23:35.249 And that's that's what happened. 349 00:23:35.669 --> 00:23:43.673 But what we talk about keeping this on the gym side is that one of the reasons why he's had insane success is because of what you were just talking about. 350 00:23:43.693 --> 00:23:47.175 You know, the builder and the driver and those things. 351 00:23:47.815 --> 00:23:51.638 also equate to standards, standards that you must have. 352 00:23:52.439 --> 00:23:53.960 So you can also be positive. 353 00:23:54.340 --> 00:24:13.576 But if you have to drive because somebody crossed that line or they're not living up to those standards, right, you're holding them then accountable to then succeed in a way that you can keep it positive, but you can chew their ass out, too, because they did not live up what you already articulated, what the standard is that they need to be if they want to be part of that program. 354 00:24:14.336 --> 00:24:14.897 Absolutely. 355 00:24:14.977 --> 00:24:17.981 Yeah, it's kind of a couple of things you've said brings us together. 356 00:24:18.001 --> 00:24:24.769 This is I just saw the quote on LinkedIn and and I say that in the book because I don't remember it was just a friend or a friend of a friend. 357 00:24:25.290 --> 00:24:33.280 I didn't want to take credit for it, but I wanted to use it said that clarity of expectation is a much more important tool than clarity of correction. 358 00:24:33.837 --> 00:24:36.500 And it's kind of what you're saying, like, let's, let's make it clear. 359 00:24:36.860 --> 00:24:47.350 I found in my own life, often as a coach, sometimes when I was leading in the military, if I did make it clear, whether it was that core value we talked about earlier, or we're just being on time is non-negotiable this organization. 360 00:24:48.010 --> 00:24:53.155 Then when it happens, it's, it's not a, it doesn't, you don't have to get stressed out about correcting it. 361 00:24:53.195 --> 00:24:58.780 Like you don't have to build up that anxiety to go talk to somebody about the standard because we've made it super clear. 362 00:24:59.840 --> 00:25:04.424 And so, yeah, it's those type of things like that get you, I think, that get us all to build her. 363 00:25:04.444 --> 00:25:05.725 And it's a journey I'm still on. 364 00:25:05.745 --> 00:25:12.690 Uh, but it's such a, you can feel it when you're there, you can feel it by when you're led by somebody who does it this way, uh, that, 365 00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:13.640 It's just different. 366 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:15.321 And we use a couple of examples in the book. 367 00:25:15.601 --> 00:25:17.382 There are a lot of sports examples in the book. 368 00:25:17.703 --> 00:25:30.893 The one we use, I'll leave the story for people to read if they want, but a young woman named Maggie Dixon who coached women's basketball at West Point that when you look back at what she did, it truly, Pat Summitt I think is another potential example. 369 00:25:31.714 --> 00:25:32.094 Love that. 370 00:25:32.214 --> 00:25:32.514 Okay. 371 00:25:32.554 --> 00:25:33.635 So build a driver. 372 00:25:33.775 --> 00:25:35.357 Let's move on to cheerleader. 373 00:25:36.408 --> 00:25:41.431 Yeah, and this is the one that I've had messages from a lot of friends who've been incredibly successful. 374 00:25:41.451 --> 00:25:48.375 I mean, I have a close friend, I actually use him a little bit in the book, that was the CEO of a company we've all heard of when he was 40 years old. 375 00:25:48.395 --> 00:25:52.098 And he's a Harvard Business School graduate, one of the best leaders you've been around. 376 00:25:52.138 --> 00:25:58.922 But we were even doing some, I'd call it executive coaching, but it was the two of us kind of just hanging out and talking for a number of months. 377 00:25:58.962 --> 00:26:03.605 And he looked at this concept and was like, boy, you know, I've got colleagues and 378 00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:09.473 What I admire about them is like if they hired a B player and that B player wasn't working out, they'd cut him loose. 379 00:26:09.633 --> 00:26:13.836 And like this, this guy has really good teams because he's not afraid to just cut people loose. 380 00:26:14.256 --> 00:26:19.459 And he had this tension because there was some downside in that, you know, the family's come into consideration. 381 00:26:19.479 --> 00:26:20.780 Did you give the person a chance? 382 00:26:20.820 --> 00:26:21.660 Did you believe in them? 383 00:26:22.121 --> 00:26:24.542 But he's like, I've got a couple of people and I just don't do that. 384 00:26:24.582 --> 00:26:26.963 Like I make excuses for him or I do their work for him. 385 00:26:27.384 --> 00:26:29.225 And this is an incredibly successful leader. 386 00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:31.486 This isn't some mediocre guy who's telling me this stuff. 387 00:26:31.856 -->

00:26:34.239 And he identified this cheerleader notion in himself. 388 00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:35.080 He's like, I've got to. 389 00:26:35.361 --> 00:26:38.205 And I actually said to him, well, have you talked to this person about it? 390 00:26:38.225 --> 00:26:39.827 Like, and he's like, no, I haven't. 391 00:26:39.867 --> 00:26:43.933 And he, he sat down and thought about what he needed to say and went and had the conversation. 392 00:26:43.993 --> 00:26:44.193 So. 393 00:26:44.573 --> 00:26:49.376 And I think it's just, it is resonating with colonels in the army that I've talked to, to everybody. 394 00:26:49.396 --> 00:26:52.398 And there's nothing grand or like incredible about this idea. 395 00:26:52.458 --> 00:27:04.126 It's just, I think there's something about asking this building or diminishing question and thinking about it from a driver cheerleader perspective that helps people like just reflect on who they are as a leader, wherever they are in their journey. 396 00:27:04.735 --> 00:27:04.975 Yeah. 397 00:27:05.476 --> 00:27:05.796 Okay. 398 00:27:05.856 --> 00:27:07.697 Let's go to the last one, which nobody wants to be. 399 00:27:07.737 --> 00:27:10.479 I mean, nobody wants to get chewed and you can't do it. 400 00:27:10.499 --> 00:27:11.240 You'll never make it. 401 00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:14.142 I mean, there's lots of examples in history of people being like that. 402 00:27:14.662 --> 00:27:21.707 And that typically to me, at least goes back to whatever trauma that person had growing up as a kid, they got their ass beat up or something. 403 00:27:21.787 --> 00:27:26.190 I don't know, but let's talk about that and what, you know, none of us obviously strive to be. 404 00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:27.251 Yeah. 405 00:27:27.271 --> 00:27:28.612 The belittler is an interesting one. 406 00:27:28.632 --> 00:27:29.072 Cause we all 407 00:27:29.707 --> 00:27:30.808 We do experience it. 408 00:27:30.908 --> 00:27:37.613 I mean, I think we've been there and I think this comes a lot of times like when I tried to really look at, hey, when was I've been a belittler? 409 00:27:37.633 --> 00:27:45.939 I think there were times when I was in the army where I got caught and I would say, I mean, it's kind of make an excuse, but we're we're impacted by the environment we're in. 410 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:47.100 And so I was getting yelled at. 411 00:27:47.360 --> 00:27:48.200 I was getting chewed out. 412 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.301 There was all kinds of pressure. 413 00:27:49.321 --> 00:27:50.782 I didn't handle it well. 414 00:27:50.822 --> 00:27:52.704 I wasn't reflecting on how I was leading. 415 00:27:53.024 --> 00:27:58.328 And so I ended up passing the, you know, passing it downhill, being demeaning to people, 416 00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.811 Basically, it's the leader who doesn't think much of people and tells them they suck. 417 00:28:02.911 --> 00:28:03.111 Right. 418 00:28:03.212 --> 00:28:09.694 And I did is I think it is you hit right on it's associated with people's own trauma with a lack of reflection. 419 00:28:10.414 --> 00:28:12.175 But it's toxic and it's damaging. 420 00:28:12.615 --> 00:28:15.296 It doesn't get results for an organization and it damages people. 421 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.221 Yeah, I think as leaders too, there's, you know, this kind of two personalities that we all float out there. 422 00:28:21.242 --> 00:28:24.422 There's this type A. I mean, certainly I've probably fallen in that category. 423 00:28:24.442 --> 00:28:25.143 And there's type B. 424 00:28:25.843 --> 00:28:30.364 And, you know, one is pushing and the other one's pulling. 425 00:28:30.864 --> 00:28:32.665 And so you have this push-pull effect, right? 426 00:28:32.845 --> 00:28:44.228 And so the real question is, like, how do you come together, especially when you're talking about, I'm not talking about necessarily a football team, although that could be or some kind of athletic team, but within an organization. 427 00:28:45.028 --> 00:28:58.636 And within the organization, you have to learn how to deal with all types of people and without like being accountable, setting the standards, but not chew people and cut them down just because they don't run at the same speed as you. 428 00:28:59.076 --> 00:28:59.296 Right. 429 00:28:59.356 --> 00:29:04.999 You just got to know what kind of again, just really understanding what kind of beast is in your is in your zoo. 430 00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:05.500 Right. 431 00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:11.543 To be able to lift people up and with the whole organization, the goal being to lift it to a whole different place. 432 00:29:12.063 --> 00:29:13.664 And that's the key for anything. 433 00:29:13.704 --> 00:29:20.787 But, you know, like you said, you'll never get the maximum results out of anybody if you just, you know, take them apart. 434 00:29:21.807 --> 00:29:22.728 Absolutely, Mark. 435 00:29:22.748 --> 00:29:36.634 And, you know, bringing it back to kind of where we started in a certain sense with thinking about the military academy and why I pointed that second experience teaching there is it does all like it really comes back to, hey, what did I do yesterday or what did I do last week? 436 00:29:36.874 --> 00:29:39.315 And how did I screw that up or what did I do well? 437 00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:42.111 And how do I make, how do I grow myself as a leader? 438 00:29:42.232 --> 00:29:55.200 And this, this, this willingness to do that, to just not have it be all about the numbers and the results, but realize that the impact that you're having on people as a leader matters and that the only person who can change that is you. 439 00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:58.081 So I got to reflect on the experiences I'm having to grow myself. 440 00:29:58.442 --> 00:29:58.782 Yeah. 441 00:29:58.962 --> 00:29:59.402 Love that. 442 00:29:59.502 --> 00:29:59.843 Love that. 443 00:30:00.023 --> 00:30:00.363 Okay. 444 00:30:01.298 --> 00:30:05.261 Are you out on the speaking

circuit at all? 445 00:30:05.281 --> 00:30:07.103 Are you doing, you're getting out there? 446 00:30:07.163 --> 00:30:08.204 Is this book just launching? 447 00:30:08.504 --> 00:30:09.365 How's that all coming together? 448 00:30:09.385 --> 00:30:11.587 Yeah, Mark, we launched the book about a month ago. 449 00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:14.349 I do four or five keynotes a year. 450 00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:16.431 They're all kind of grassroots and organic. 451 00:30:16.751 --> 00:30:28.661 Being more intentional about this effort, honestly, all the money from this book in particular, and we did this intentionally at the reference group where I work, is going to a nonprofit called Tunnel to Towers. 452 00:30:29.105 --> 00:30:37.613 which pays off the mortgages for Gold Star families who have lost a spouse in combat or builds houses actually for first responders. 453 00:30:38.314 --> 00:30:41.137 And we did that because I believe in this concept enough. 454 00:30:41.177 --> 00:30:43.819 I mean, I've been doing leader development for 25 years. 455 00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:47.983 It's a simple concept, but I've watched it already change people. 456 00:30:48.003 --> 00:30:53.749 I've gotten, like I said, messages from people who said, hey, I just had this conversation with my adult daughter last week. 457 00:30:54.129 --> 00:30:55.350 And I was totally diminishing. 458 00:30:55.470 --> 00:31:00.052 And like, I need to go back to her and apologize and be the builder. 459 00:31:01.092 --> 00:31:04.894 And so I wanted to be free from self-interest in promoting this. 460 00:31:05.494 --> 00:31:09.176 And so we're given all the proceeds to tunnel the towers for the book. 461 00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:10.977 Absolutely trying to get out there and speak. 462 00:31:10.997 --> 00:31:15.079 The website is building or diminishing.com where people can go for that. 463 00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:23.403 But yeah, I've been doing this work for 25 years and I've always loved the relationship of it, loved helping people grow and really haven't tried to try to 464 00:31:23.810 --> 00:31:28.896 build a kind of a business out of it other than the what came, but in this case doing it a little differently. 465 00:31:28.936 --> 00:31:30.819 So absolutely ready to go do that. 466 00:31:31.239 --> 00:31:41.512 Well, it certainly sounds like you've taken it seriously and you're good at it and you had a great, you know, in, in going to West point certainly teed you up to be, you didn't understand what leadership means. 467 00:31:41.592 --> 00:31:41.692 And, 468 00:31:42.653 --> 00:31:52.196 And really trying to tap into the potential of everybody because everybody, you know, has the potential, I'll use that word again, to be the best version of themselves. 469 00:31:52.256 --> 00:31:56.577 And so many people aren't just because they don't know how to lead and set goals and be accountable and set standards. 470 00:31:57.478 --> 00:31:57.998 Absolutely. 471 00:31:59.163 --> 00:32:03.865 Yeah, I have a good friend from high school and we sent this book out to like our Christmas list, kind of just sent it out to people. 472 00:32:03.945 --> 00:32:06.906 And she's a she's a second grade teacher down in California. 473 00:32:06.926 --> 00:32:09.647 I wrote me back and said she bought a copy for everybody. 474 00:32:09.687 --> 00:32:12.488 She leads professional development at her elementary school. 475 00:32:12.568 --> 00:32:13.589 I wanted people to read it. 476 00:32:14.169 --> 00:32:14.929 There's an example. 477 00:32:15.770 --> 00:32:21.712 My wife was a kindergarten teacher and I use her as an example of a cheerleader and where that comes from for her in the book. 478 00:32:22.112 --> 00:32:25.715 So, you know, we teach our leadership development programs. 479 00:32:25.735 --> 00:32:26.095 We talk. 480 00:32:26.355 --> 00:32:27.436 We don't define leadership. 481 00:32:27.516 --> 00:32:29.838 We simply say you're a leader if people are following you. 482 00:32:30.318 --> 00:32:30.979 And we believe that. 483 00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:35.162 It's in so many areas of life and truly feel like this is a concept for everybody. 484 00:32:36.005 --> 00:32:36.405 Love it. 485 00:32:36.485 --> 00:32:36.845 Love it. 486 00:32:36.965 --> 00:32:37.906 Okay. 487 00:32:38.026 --> 00:32:39.587 Where can people find you? 488 00:32:39.607 --> 00:32:40.907 You just mentioned this book. 489 00:32:41.748 --> 00:32:43.989 Is there any place online where somebody wants to reach out? 490 00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:44.569 Yeah. 491 00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:57.395 I mean, LinkedIn, I'll connect with whoever wants to reach out on LinkedIn and then building or diminishing.com is our website for this book, which also has a connection to the referent group, the boutique consulting firm or leadership development firm I work with. 492 00:32:57.795 --> 00:32:58.015 Yeah. 493 00:32:58.115 --> 00:33:00.676 And then you can buy this book where? 494 00:33:00.877 --> 00:33:01.977 At Amazon. 495 00:33:02.237 --> 00:33:03.538 Amazon primarily. 496 00:33:04.439 --> 00:33:09.332 And then we do sell, we will sell copies directly, 10 or more via the website. 497 00:33:09.633 --> 00:33:11.919 And then all the proceeds, 100% of them go to, 498 00:33:12.662 --> 00:33:13.803 uh, tunnel the towers. 499 00:33:13.823 --> 00:33:15.203 If we do that and stuff. 500 00:33:15.623 --> 00:33:15.843 Yeah. 501 00:33:16.144 --> 00:33:16.604 Love that. 502 00:33:16.684 --> 00:33:17.244 Good stuff. 503 00:33:17.284 --> 00:33:17.684 Good stuff. 504 00:33:17.704 --> 00:33:18.665 You lead by example. 505 00:33:18.685 --> 00:33:27.328 And that's so important, uh, today, um, for anybody else out there, make sure you subscribe to this channel, whatever you're listening to today. 506 00:33:27.348 --> 00:33:32.191 And, um, I just really appreciate you coming on and just killer conversation. 507 00:33:32.271 --> 00:33:34.832 I mean, there's more people I wish in the world that were like you. 508 00:33:35.732 --> 00:33:36.233 Thanks, Mark. 509 00:33:36.273 --> 00:33:36.974 I appreciate that. 510 00:33:37.034 --> 00:33:37.374 Yeah. 511 00:33:37.494 --> 00:33:38.716 Okay. 512 00:33:38.996 --> 00:33:39.256 Yep. 513 00:33:39.276 --> 00:33:39.496 Yep. 514 00:33:39.516 --> 00:33:39.917 Thank you. 515 00:33:39.997 --> 00:33:40.377 All right. 516 00:33:40.578 --> 00:33:44.682 There is the one, the only Doug Crandall. 517 00:33:44.702 --> 00:33:45.423 Thank you so much.