I Built It. Then I Fired Myself: The Clownfish Story with Matt Turner의 전체 녹취록

friends? 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:48.639 Do you fit in at school? 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:49.840 Can you even make friends? 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:55.280 And then as you get a bit older, you start to think about relationships and who do I fancy and who do I not fancy and all these sorts of things. 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.599 And then when you get older than that, you start thinking about the dreaded what am I gonna do when I leave school? 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:00.400 Like what's next? 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.199 Like these are quite complicated questions for young people, I think. 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:04.240 For me, it was. 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:06.000 So I think I did feel pressure. 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:08.719 I think they're getting more complicated, those questions as well. 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:09.840 I think today's generation. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:10.159 Yeah. 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:11.439 Yeah, I completely agree. 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.599 And I don't think there's much kind of role modeling or perhaps good advice. 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:20.879 There's like we spoke once, David, about the manosphere and that level of kind of influence over young boys, particularly. 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.800 But I almost maybe those things are louder in social media and in the environment. 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.600 But I see less great examples of how to find your thing, like how to find yourself. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:39.360 And so anyway, I think to answer your question, I think, yeah, it was a massive thing for me to work out what it was I was going to do with my life because I didn't feel particularly normal at school. 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:41.680 I didn't really feel like I fitted in very well. 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:48.800 I knew that I was a gay person when I was like seven or eight or nine years old, but I didn't actually tell anyone until I was more like kind of 24, 25. 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:51.360 I actually used their business as a gigantic distraction. 00:04:51.439 --> 00:05:07.759 But all of those kind of internal thoughts that floated around, as well as feeling, I guess, kind of outshone by my friends and by my siblings particularly, who were all getting A-star A grades and everything they did, and they were sporty and they were cool, and they didn't have to have braces like I did, and they didn't have to have glasses like I did, and all this sort of stuff. 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:13.120 So I just found like what I did next was really pivotable if I was ever gonna make something of myself. 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:19.120 And I think with all that pressure, it became a huge part of my thinking and my kind of teenage years. 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:20.480 What on earth am I gonna do? 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:30.480 And I was fortunate that earlier, like I had this kind of event techie hobby, and I also, without realizing it at the time, was probably much more entrepreneurial than I ever gave myself credit for. 00:05:30.639 -->

00:05:43.120 Because at 14, 15, 16, I was that slightly odd child who was instead of like starting to drink or go to the pub or play football or date girls, the kind of normal things in a vertical commerce that a teenage boy might do. 00:05:43.279 --> 00:06:02.800 I was actually in a bedroom with my best friend creating a theatre and building a little stage and having curtains fitted into our rooms so that we could make this kind of, I don't know, Anton Deck style type entertainment show for a Saturday night, and we'd invite our parents and our siblings to come and watch us perform, and it was a chance to showcase some tech, and it's also a chance to just be fun and be silly. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:11.759 That was my idea of fun, and so this kind of creating moments, memories, stupid, kind of silly fun stuff like that was inherent in who I was from a really young age. 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:17.439 And kind of unbelievably, I got to play that out in my kind of 16 and a half year career running clownfish. 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:23.360 I guess by creating clownfish, and as you said, you know, the business kind of it evolved and then it grew and then it grew much, much bigger. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:37.600 But it was a place where a slightly awkward, slightly unsure of his sexuality person was actually did belong in that space rather than and you created a space where you absolutely were happy and you thought, okay, I have don't have to worry about anyone here. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:38.639 This is my spot. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:39.120 Yeah. 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:44.879 And to be honest, someone interviewed me recently, like a journalist, and their article, it's kind of fascinating reading it back. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:46.240 Like, what do they take from me? 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:47.759 How do they frame a story out of it? 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:49.120 It's currently on my website, actually. 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.040 I guess it's kind of a fascinating read for me. 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:57.120 But the way Andrew Castle framed it was this boy grew up in three different rooms, none of which he felt accepted in. 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:02.639 And the three rooms were school, didn't feel like I was worth anything or intelligent and had anything to offer. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:08.399 I grew up at home in my family, and I felt very kind of different to my siblings and to my parents' expectations. 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.800 The sexuality thing I mentioned was a big part of that. 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:12.079 But I also grew up in church. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:24.959 That was a third room that I grew up in that I definitely didn't feel welcome in because I was kind of part of a kind of a more I would call conservative, maybe right-wing style of church who kind of denounced the kind of homosexuality and so on and likened it to hell and all that kind of stuff. 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.759 And as like an eight-year-old, flipping terrifying. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.399 So those are the three central rooms of my life. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:35.040 I don't think I felt growing up welcomed, loved, or accepted in. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:53.040 And so it kind of makes sense to me looking back now as to why I actually didn't want to go to university or take a job with anyone else, because I had nothing in my kind of previous life or my upbringing so far that made me think I could trust someone to lead or run the room that I was next going to spend the next, I don't know, 45 years in working. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:54.240 So I built my own room. 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:56.560 And that very much I think became the thinking of my life. 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.040 Build your own room to keep myself safe inside of. 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:13.439 And the joyous part of my job became the getting to do that for really what ended up being over a hundred people, not at the same time, but over all that time, colleagues that came and went through the clownfish doors, creating a room at its best, which felt safe and included and safe. 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:14.000 So yeah. 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:19.920 I guess because it was the room that you created, you felt really comfortable in just literally throwing yourself. 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.360 I mean, 18 years old is I mean, honestly, you're a baby at 18. 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:25.360 To throw yourself into running your own business. 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.959 I don't know for certain because I wasn't well, I was when I set up Tong Sani. 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.920 I think I was actually 18 years old, but that's a felt business question. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:37.519 But I think, you know, to have the bravery to say, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to put my head down, I'm going to do it. 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:42.240 Was it escape from the other three rooms, or was it just a place you just felt really comfortable? 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.080 The reality is, and you will relate to this, and I suspect most people listening will relate. 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.519 Running a business is in no way comfortable, basically ever. 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.879 And so I describe it a bit like a giant game of whack-a-mole. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:09:02.320 The idea that as soon as you hit down and solve one disaster or problem or fire, the next one pops up, and you have a new set of issues to now think about and focus upon. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:04.000 And that for me never really ended. 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:09.840 And actually, as I realised more and more, speaking to so many more founders and MDs, that actually is the reality of business. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.600 So I kidded myself thinking this might be an easy route, because of course it wasn't. 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:19.519 But to answer your question, there was so much insecurity flying around me that I carried with me for a lot of my early career. 00:09:19.679 -->

00:09:22.399 I just think I thought that I really wasn't anything. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.960 Like I was just gonna be one of those people who didn't have much of a life, who had his kind of head down metaphorically, and maybe even literally head down. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:35.440 Someone who wouldn't go on to do anything cool and amazing, like I thought my siblings and parents were so destined to do, and my friends. 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:55.039 And I think a lot of running the business or starting a business, whilst yes was for the reasons I talked about, which is creating this environment that I could be in control of, was also a way of kind of proving to myself and at the time, more importantly, everyone around me, that I could be something, that I could do something, that I wasn't useless, I wasn't a waste of space, like I could achieve something amazing here. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:10:03.440 You know, I wasn't gonna be an actor, and I probably wasn't gonna be a professional musician, I wasn't gonna be a writer, I wasn't gonna be a great academic, I actually wasn't gonna be a sound engineer either. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:04.080 I wasn't good enough. 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:11.440 So what if I could become a great business operator, a great business person, and invent and create something and then take people on that journey with me? 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:20.799 And what if by doing so I could actually win awards, become well known in the industry, and create what was a multi-million pound business that did really well and frankly has changed my life entirely. 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.679 And that was a vague thinking at 18 that I didn't believe, by the way. 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.559 But that vague dream was floating around somewhere in me. 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:31.120 I had to do something, I had to prove that I wasn't a waste, that my life here on earth was worth something. 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:37.600 I mean, I think anyone, whether you're an 18-year-old or a 28-year-old, quite frankly, if you're running a business, you never think you're good enough. 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.519 People always suffer from imposter syndrome because, you know, that's just a fact of life. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:49.039 And, you know, we do, we see people day in, day out, and they're even in their 50s, and possibly even into their 60s, they still don't believe they're good enough to run a business. 00:10:49.279 --> 00:11:08.960 But I guess the clownfish you created was slightly in your own mind's eye in terms of of embracing people, you know, who also may have been sort of misfits or whatever, and therefore you created this safe space for lots of people to come work with, irrespective of whether you were or weren't good at running the business, you clearly created a space where people felt very happy to work. 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:09.600 Yeah. 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:21.360 The thing I say so much is we spend so much time at work, you know, whether it's me as MD and company owner or whether it's the team, we are all spending a minimum of like, I don't know, 40 hours a week at work. 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.600 And this crazy events industry that often doubles. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:36.799 So if you were to do the math and you were to look at your whole life as an overview, I think most people, irrespective of what industry they're in, would realize they're spending more time at work with their colleagues than they are with any other portion of their life. 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:42.799 As in more time with their colleagues than they are with their other half, their kids if they have them, their family, their best friends, and so on. 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:43.840 That's just how life works. 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:47.200 That's how it kind of set up, weirdly, whether that's right or wrong, it's a reality. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:12:05.600 And actually the stats are Gallup is the kind of largest people survey around, and they report that in the United Kingdom, only 10% of people actually feel engaged in their workplaces, which means that 90% of people that go to work, and remember, it's the time you spend most in your life at work, are actually disengaged. 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.320 They are quietly quitting, they don't really want to be there. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:15.840 And my argument would be, well, what does that do to someone's, I don't know, happiness or mental health or stress levels? 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:21.440 If actually the thing that they're spending the most of their time doing is something they don't even feel engaged or that they want to be there. 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.080 And what does that do to a society when you take that home with you? 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.120 Because whether people admit it or not, everyone takes home a bit of work with them. 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:37.360 If you are stressed and feeling low and you're feeling pissed off and you can't get through to your line manager, or the culture is toxic and difficult and complicated, you do sit on the tube, slightly stewing, going home. 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:43.759 You do come into the family room or wherever that is for you, slightly aggy because you feel a bit short, because you haven't had a great productive day. 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:54.080 And I think that was one of the many reasons I just tried to make the working culture and the environment in which we worked happy and joyous and fun. 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.159 And don't get me wrong, this is not heaven. 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.320 Like, this isn't paradise, clownfish. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:59.919 It never could be, and it shouldn't be. 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:00.799 It is work. 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:01.919 Work is challenging. 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:05.759 Difficult conversations happen every single day, especially at a growing scaling company. 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:07.360 I described whackamole earlier. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:08.000

There are challenges. 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:08.960 There is stress attached. 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:09.200 Sure. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:09.840 Like I get it. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:12.080 Not everyone would have loved their time at clownfish. 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:12.559 I get it. 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:21.679 But by and large, for the most part, I wanted to do everything I could that was in my power, that was in my control, to say, well, if we're gonna spend this much time at work, let's at least make it the best it can be. 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:24.480 Let's at least deal with the difficult things that are reoccurring. 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:30.879 Let's at least ask politely for people that don't add to a positive happy culture to either remove them or to have a conversation with them. 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:36.879 Let's actually be really proactive about maintaining this place because, you know, this whole life thing is flipping difficult for most people. 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.200 Where whoever you are listening, life is kind of difficult. 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.679 And I think the older you get, the harder life becomes. 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.559 You know, I asked David, uh rescheduled this podcast because I'm going to a funeral tomorrow, so it messed my week up. 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:51.919 You know, like the older you get, the more people that I know now who are going through severe illness or actually sadly who are dying. 00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:01.840 And I know a lot of people who are really unhappy in their marriage or in their work, who are unhappy with their waistline, unhappy with their diet, their financial situation where they live, their kids' self, their kids' happiness, the kids getting bullied. 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:02.799 I mean, it goes on and on and on. 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.679 Life is really messy. 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:18.159 And so again, I think there is a responsibility on great employers to do everything they can to make sure that at least the kind of 40 hours a week that your team are giving you, I appreciate you're paying them, there's a responsibility to make that the best version that it can be. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:28.720 Not just because it will make them happy, which is an important component, but also in all my experience, it will actually make them and encourage them and inspire them to do their best work ever. 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:43.759 It's the idea that, like, when you feel sort of safe, when you feel like you belong, when you feel like you're growing, when you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself, i.e., when the culture is set up properly and right, you will get the very best out of your team. 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.639 And it changes everything about how the team behave and respond. 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.320 It changes their buy-in, it changes their conviction, it changes their show-up, it reduces their illness day, and so on and so on and so on. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.480 There's a great commercial argument, I believe, for being a best place to work. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:00.159 A beautifully guarded, intentional culture. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.879 For the individuals, yes, but also for the company. 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.440 For the sake of the bottom line, I think those two things are so alikened, and most people tell me it's either or. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:14.399 We either have a really happy company that makes no money, or we have a company that makes loads of money at the sacrifice and detriment of our employees' well-being. 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.000 And I'm like, no, what a lot of rubbish. 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:21.440 The thing I think I'm the most proud of is that I believe by and large, I proved that you can do both things equally. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:22.960 They're not mutually exclusive. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.759 In fact, one leads to the other, but also leads to the other. 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.519 But actually, when he explained it, it really made sense to me because I thought I get that. 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:48.399 And that one of the things that I'm, you know, I'm so passionate about in the moment is that I think that more young people need to be in an office, be surrounded by their peers in a situation where they actually are involved in the culture of an office. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.759 I think that the point you make, if the culture is toxic, at least it's a culture. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.759 If there is no culture because people are never there, then that that becomes a bigger problem. 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.159 And obviously, you've done an amazing job at Clan Vision. 00:15:58.399 --> 00:15:59.919 Your culture was well renowned. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:01.759 And I think it's really difficult now. 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:10.559 I think people misunderstand this word culture or misuse this word, but it is fundamentally crucial to running a successful business. 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:19.279 And I do worry for the future a bit, not least because people don't seem to be in an office as much, but I think people don't understand what it is to be in an office environment. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:26.000 Yeah, look, I mean, if you don't mind me saying, we spoke about your daughter a kind of a few weeks ago and her career and her trajectory. 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:33.679 And I think that it's a lot of mums and dads who actually were my historic clients are actually asking about their 18-year-old, 21-year-old daughter, son. 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.720 You know, what on earth, man, are these people meant to be doing with their life? 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:38.320 Like, is AAR gonna ruin everything? 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:46.159 It's really hard to get opportunities now, entry level, and also companies just don't seem to want to employ people anymore, full stop, let alone people with limited skills. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.600 And also, no

one even wants to work in an office, as kind of you were saying. 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.440 It's the sort of shorthand thing people say to me. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:17:00.080 And look, there's lots of answers and lots of questions in order of what I've just introduced, but I would suggest that most people are actually inherently great, like inherently good. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:05.359 They start their careers, like your daughter, wanting to be the best version of themselves. 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.240 Like most people want to be great. 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:30.160 Most people, if you were to play back their interview for their first ever job, like however old you are, if you're listening to this, if you could go back in time, whenever your first interview was, whoever that was with, if you could replay that tape, let's hypothetically say it was recorded, and you watched that tape back, I almost guarantee you that in that interview, you said things like, I'm gonna bend over backwards, I'm gonna whip my ass off. 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.359 I'm the kind of person that can solve problems, that can learn fast. 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.079 I bet you would have said all the cliche obvious things about how great you were going to be. 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.319 And by the way, I reckon you meant them. 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:46.640 I reckon you fully believed as an 18, 21-year-old, 30-year-old, whenever your first job interview was, I reckon you believed what you were gonna say. 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.920 But now here's the sad bit. 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:57.519 So whatever again, whatever age you are hearing me speak now, if you were then to play that now, 10, 5, 20, 30 years on, how different has your career turned out from what you said you were gonna be? 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:58.880 Do you bend over backwards? 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:00.160 Do you do whatever it takes? 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:01.599 Do you solve complex problems? 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.240 You know, do you get on with your colleagues like you promised me you were gonna do? 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.240 Do you learn and strive and want to grow? 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:12.480 And actually, again, statistically, for most people, if you were to play that take back, I think they'd watch you back and feel depressed. 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.440 That version of me is still in me, they still recognize it, but it has not turned out to be the reality of my life. 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.079 So what I'm saying in order that is, I'm saying I'm saying lots of things. 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:26.720 But one of the things I want to say is for most people, they do inherently want to do great work and they start with great ambitions. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:32.319 But as evidenced, over a number of months or years, somehow that dilutes and they become a lesser version of themselves. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:41.519 And I would suggest that companies aren't, I mean, increasingly and just kind of tragically, and of course there are lots of exceptions, but in the mainstream, companies aren't providing the role modeling. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:46.559 They're not providing the kind of resources, the examples, the application of how to be great. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.119 Even the culture written out or the culture even explained, they're not providing the tools. 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.799 And so, to answer your question, the working from home problem, yeah. 00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:02.799 I mean, the big problem with working from home is that if you're 18, 21, 25, 30, I mean, even if you're 55 and you're starting a new career, where is the role modeling? 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:08.720 It's much, much harder on Zoom to just overhear that conversation that your senior has with a customer. 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:17.200 It's much harder to gauge the atmosphere, the culture, how to be in a meeting in person, how to speak to a client, how to speak to a supplier, how to speak to an operator, and so on. 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:28.400 And so, yeah, I think role modeling tools, kind of hands-on support, are things that are vital to help people grow, but they're also things that are diminishing in a world that's increasingly online and remote. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.160 I agree with you entirely. 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.119 I was gonna say the other aspect of that is emotional intelligence. 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:36.400 You know, good role models tend to have lots of emotional intelligence. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.359 Yeah, I agree. 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.839 I mean, the other thing I was going to add to at the end is that I mean, when I did this for a living, right? 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.920 So when Clownfish begun, it was kind of weddings by mitzvahs, 18th birthday parties. 00:19:46.079 --> 00:20:02.000 By the end, it had really turned off all the private work and we'd repositioned to be this kind of B2B that was enabling and supporting companies' cultures, whether that was in parties, whether it was in their conferences, we would help their colleagues connect back to Central Mission, celebrate it together, and actually get to know each other. 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:20.880 And kind of amazingly, but also I guess tragically, the number one thing that my clients used to say to me is the biggest problem we have in our company, Matt, in 2023, 24, 25, 26, the biggest problem we have is that we've all forgotten, our colleagues have forgotten what this company even is, what it stands for, where it's going, what our mission is, what our goal is, what our plan is. 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.319 We are all just so disconnected from that kind of central picture. 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:30.799 In fact, in the old days where the CEO and the founders and the bosses used to walk around in open plan offices, people would pick things up every day. 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.519 There would be these impromptu lunch things or Q ⁇ A's. 00:20:33.680

--> 00:20:36.559 But none of that happens anymore because we're so remote, we're so distanced. 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.880 And as a result, we're not just distanced geographically, but we're distanced from mission. 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.279 We're distanced from that central connection of company mission and why it even matters. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:21:05.039 And I would teach to people that to really build a business, your entire team have got to understand how they, in their role, whatever it is, whether it's a web developer or it's a van driver or it's a salesperson, whatever your role is, you have to understand how your role is vital and important to the overall company architecture and emission. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.200 How you make a difference in this massive company. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.039 And that's being lost, I think, at scale. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:21.359 And so that's why I think events can be a very effective way to bring colleagues together, to celebrate in company successes, get to know people that you may have seen on Teams or you may have seen on Zoom, and you go over and you shake their hand. 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:23.759 Yeah, I recognize you, I was on a meeting with you last year about X. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:36.559 And ideally, you have some kind of leadership team, CEO, whoever from the front explaining and going through the most important parts of what this company is actually about to remind people, to connect them and ultimately to inspire them. 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.480 And I think that's also what's missing in a lot of modern day companies who are more remote. 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:56.559 Yeah, and I think we had a very interesting conversation this morning with a guy who said that he reckoned the industry was going to explode in the next few years because of exactly what you've said, because people are more remote and the leaders are gonna say, We've got to bring people together more, we've got to get the team together more. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.359 And back to your point, explain, you know, where this bus is headed. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:00.480 And I think That's right. 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.880 I think people will say, okay, this is a really good way to do it. 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:08.720 This is a way to explain the culture of the company, to explain what we mean to one another, and to actually meet people, you know. 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:18.000 And I think one of the interesting things, and this is just a massive aside, but the way of greeting people when you were growing up, when when I was growing up, you know, you shake them by the hand or whatever. 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.240 And even if you knew them really well, you'd shake them by the hand. 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.720 Now it's much more physical, you know, you give them a hug. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:29.359 And even at my advanced years, you know, I would definitely give my best friends hugs because I just feel like I'm delighted to see them. 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:31.839 And I hope that sort of kind of filters into the workplace. 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.359 I'm you know, I'm not advocating that you should hug your colleagues all the time, but you know what I mean. 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:36.000 I get it. 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:44.240 I started working with a few companies, and I find myself, if I haven't met them, I'll either shake their hand or if I'm trying to be cool, I'll fist pump them. 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.920 And it's a funny thing, there'll be some person that can explain this much better than me. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.559 But there is this thing about just a little bit of connection, a little light touch of like, hey, it's great to see you. 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:53.200 Like I'm with you. 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.119 It's a bit like eye contact, it's the same kind of thing. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.319 And I agree that is again lost when you were working on Zoom. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:04.160 It's much harder to create that authentic connection and give someone this idea that they're important to you. 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:11.920 I think a great thing leaders and bosses do is they actually they do make their colleagues, irrespective of their tenure or seniority, they make them feel really special. 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.559 They make them feel wanted and like they belong in this company. 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:24.319 I was at a talk last week with Greg Jackson from Octopus Energy, and he explained well that there used to be a company of 10, 15 people, and they got all the way to now 13,000. 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.400 That's incredible worldwide growth. 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:33.119 But the problem, of course, is anyone that's ever been in a 20, 30 person company knows there's nothing better than sort of small business energy. 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:39.440 You know, that kind of small startup, eye contact, fist pump, we want to know what we're doing, we're all connected, there's no weak link. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.160 You can create that with 30 people very hard with 13,000. 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:47.839 And he explained, you know, one of the questions were asked, obviously, was, well, how on earth do you still win cultural awards? 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.240 How do you still have great retention at your company? 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.160 And there are a hundred answers to that question. 00:23:52.240 --> 00:24:04.960 But one of the ones he said was, My office, no matter how big this company has become, and it's a multi-billion pound company now, my office is open plan and it's in the main kind of corner of a massive open plan office with no kind of walls. 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:11.039 And what it enables me to do is just walk up and down the corridors and just say hi, fist pump people, check people's screens, what are you doing? 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:12.000 Can I help with anything? 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:12.640 Nice to

see you. 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:18.319 Whether it's your first day, octopus, or whether it's your 1000th day, you're still getting a bit of attention from CEO. 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:26.720 Pretty cool way to make anyone, irrespective of age and tenure, feel welcomed and warmed by the CEO, by arguably the most kind of important person in the building. 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:27.440 Really cool. 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:35.839 And again, something that I think great company culture and leaders do, much harder to do on Zoom, clearly, to make someone feel warmed and to make someone feel interested in. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:45.200 It's very interesting that, and going back to when you started Clownfish, you know, and since the years you were running the business, and we've discussed this in the past, you weren't afraid to reach out for help. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:51.519 You know, you've had mentors and advisors, you've had therapy, you know, all of that stuff is great and it builds you as a leader, doesn't it? 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:52.480 It does, yeah. 00:24:52.640 --> 00:25:01.759 I feel like my career was so long, although I guess to lots of people it's not, that actually there were so many different phases within that 16 and a half years of running the business. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.279 The truth is, the first 10 years I got it so much in my way. 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:09.279 I did not get therapy, mentoring, coaching, help, advice. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.319 There was this pathetic, I'm a little embarrassed, but it's very truthful. 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.000 There was this thing in me that was like, if I'm ever gonna make it, I'm doing it myself. 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:17.680 No, I don't want anyone to say the credit. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:19.759 This is me, and I don't want to get any help. 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:24.960 Slash, there was a part of me that probably didn't want to face within and didn't want to take myself on. 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.519 It's a lovely phrase that was so true of me. 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.119 External accolades don't fill internal voids. 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:33.920 And so 10 years in, I had lots of external accolades. 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.319 I had a second flipping house on the South Coast. 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:37.279 Like I'd done well. 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.000 You know, the business was, I don't know, 15 people. 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.559 We owned commercial warehousing, we had some of the biggest clients and brands in the world. 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:45.359 Like, I was doing well. 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.359 I was driving a blooming Audi, you know? 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.240 And so 10 years in, I hadn't taken myself on. 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:55.759 I had external accolades, but as the phrase goes, external accolades don't fill internal voids. 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.440 I still had internal voids. 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:03.359 I still had things in me that I'd taken from 18 when I started, and they are still in me at 28. 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:05.759 But I suspect you probably got voids still. 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:07.279 But when did you face up to that? 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.400 Did you age 28? 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.480 Did you say to yourself, okay, I'm doing really well. 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:13.839 I'm driving a brand new idea, I've got a house on the south coast, it's all good. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.039 Were you happy? 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:21.440 No, I was single, I had never been in a register of my life, had put all of that off at the pursuit of trying to build a business instead. 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:28.000 There were still parts of me that were young, immature, or I didn't really like about myself that had never really been addressed. 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.160 I had loads and loads of fear, be a big one. 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:42.720 Fear that I felt, and I think we all do this as humans, well, when I get the second home, when my business becomes successful, when I have my 15th member of staff, when I land that big client, well, then it will solve me. 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:44.240 And of course it's ridiculous. 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:49.039 And every business or sports hero book you could ever read will tell you the exact same thing. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:54.559 There is no confetti moment, metaphorically, that sorts out or fixes any of the internal voids. 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:59.839 And so actually, it was when I was 29 and my dad had just passed kind of unexpectedly. 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:00.640 He was 59. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:02.079 Very quick, sudden cancer. 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:07.680 I think it was at that moment where I realized, okay, I have no safety net in life anymore. 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.720 My dad did not have any money at all, ever. 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.119 And so I didn't come from a financial safety net. 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:14.480 That's not actually what I'm talking about. 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:19.039 I'm talking about a more important safety net, which was not financial, it was being a great dad. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.720 It was knowing that whatever happened, he was there, and I could have called him. 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.039 I rarely did, but I know I knew I could have done. 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.440 So I thought I messed up everything in my life. 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:34.160 And if I ruined the business, and if I fell out of my best friend, or I became injured or unwell, I knew I could just call him. 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:39.279 And actually, I didn't take politics particularly seriously as an example until he died. 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:39.759 Why? 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:47.279 Because he was so wise and so well read that actually I just asked him who to vote for and uh where I should vote on Brexit, and so on and so on and so on. 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:58.079 And so when that safety net of just, I don't know how to

say that, I guess being dad, when that safety net was removed from my life, that was the moment I thought, oh wow, it's really just me now. 00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:59.839 It's now time to take myself on. 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.200 It's time to address some of these internal things that haven't been solved. 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.799 And actually, I kind of almost disproportionately overcompensated. 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:19.599 There's a stat somewhere that's sort of joked about Kleinovich now, that in that first or second year, I think I spent about 150,000 of company money on an array of coaching, including, by the way, you guys, cultural partners. 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.599 I hired two performance coaches, one called Rory, one called John. 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.960 They weren't just for me, actually, they were for anyone in the business that wanted them. 00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:28.319 I started therapy. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.680 I started flying to, I went to Germany to watch Tony Robbins of four-day Unleash the Power. 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.079 Went to Las Vegas to meet Alex Hormosy. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:37.599 I joined Entrepreneur's Circle. 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.160 I went to the Entrepreneur Circle conventions every year. 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:42.720 I mean, I just went in and I did everything. 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.160 Trying to fill the void, right? 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:44.799 Yeah, correct. 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:46.480 Yeah, trying to take myself on finally. 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.079 And now that I felt alone in life. 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:54.240 And by the way, what was kind of fascinating is I was 29 and age 30, the pandemic began. 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.599 So my birthday was March the 2nd, 2020, when I was 30. 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:05.119 And I had a big 30th birthday party, and for about a year and a half, it was like the last thing that the kind of 40 or 50 people that came physically came to. 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:10.000 And so it all culminated in dad dying, turning 30, which became a big thing for me. 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:11.279 And then this pandemic. 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:12.559 So it was amazing timing. 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:16.319 In some ways, I had no option but to, as I love to call it, take myself on. 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:21.599 And my regret probably is not that I try to have regrets as a person, is that I didn't do any of that earlier. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:30.559 One of the things I'm doing at the moment is kind of randomly, I have finally started saying yes to business owners that want help in starting or running a business. 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.559 It's very complex, as we both know. 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.000 And I've kind of said no forever because I've had a full-time job and I've just had a year off. 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.519 I just said no, no, no, leave me alone. 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.119 Let me be me and do my own thing now. 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:40.559 And I've just started saying yes. 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.319 And I absolutely love it. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:43.359 Not because of the money. 00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:44.559 I really don't care about that. 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:50.000 I love it because what I'm doing is exactly what I wish I had when I was at their stage in business. 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:56.720 I'm just providing this very calm, very steady, but very experienced hand that says, you're doing great. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.279 Well done. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:58.640 You're doing much better than you think you are. 00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.839 Stop focusing on the negatives. 00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:00.480 You're doing great. 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:06.400 But by the way, here are a couple of things that I think you could do that could make this even more exciting or that could make this more profitable. 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:09.920 By the way, it's not the 97 things that you told me, it's just these two or three things. 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:15.039 And when I'm doing this now, I think to myself, flip an egg, this is exactly what I would have wanted for me. 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:16.400 And I think that's why it's so personal. 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:17.920 That's why I like it so much. 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:19.519 I suspect you're probably quite similar. 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:24.720 I think that's a really good point, is you're so afraid, as you said, you were, of reaching out for help. 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:30.319 And then when you finally do reach out, and we you know we fight all the time, and you're beginning to sit now, particularly with your yoga teacher at the moment. 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:38.640 But you know, the relief on their face that you're not absolutely ripping their eyes out, and actually you're there to help, and you really do care. 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:40.720 It's like, I didn't know why I didn't do this before. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:41.359 Yeah, yeah. 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:42.079 Exactly that. 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:46.799 And if you're wondering if I have a yoga teacher, I don't, but day I told day before we start recording. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:48.799 That was a very random uh aside. 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:58.319 One of the clients I've just said yes to is a yoga teacher, and she has been running her business for four or five years, hasn't really got anywhere, isn't really able to pay herself. 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:06.240 She's certainly not even paying herself minimum wage, and uh, she's been following me for a while, and uh she finally said yes, I'm ready to change my life and my business. 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:06.880 Please help me. 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.000 She's an example of one of the clients I've just said yes to, and I'm absolutely loving. 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:11.680 Like genuinely, I would do it for free. 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.480 I love it, because I believe I'm changing her business and anything in life.

00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:17.359 Or better said, I believe that she's changing her business and life. 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:18.640 I'm just there to help her do so. 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:24.400 So the 16 years came to an end when you fired yourself unceremoniously, I should imagine, from clownfic. 00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:33.200 The bizarre thing about it is that despite persuading yourself otherwise, that the person you've then appointed was your partner, Johnny, which is kind of like wow. 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:39.039 I mean, uh, we won't go into the reasons of you saying, well, no, it's definitely not Johnny, it's definitely not Johnny, and everyone's saying, of course it's flipping Johnny. 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:41.200 I know you've stepped away completely, which is amazing. 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.200 I mean, just the most incredible thing to say, right? 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:44.400 Okay, I'm not here anymore. 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.920 I'm just stepping away, I'm leaving. 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:47.599 Johnny, it's your train set now. 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.400 I mean, obviously you know him very well indeed, but do you think there's something that he's gonna do that you couldn't? 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.880 And what has watching him taught you and what you're doing now, for instance? 00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.400 It's a great question. 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.839 He is everything I'm not, is the best way of saying it. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:12.720 So he is very detailed and he is very able to cope and deal with immense amount of information at the same time. 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.119 And you what they're trying to do at Clownfish is get to a million pounds a month business. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:23.200 And to do that really does require a very different energy and a very different kind of manager than what I was. 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:31.519 I think a very different energy is required for someone to scale a business to a million pounds a month than what is required to get off the ground in the first place. 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:40.160 So I definitely had that entrepreneurial kind of visionary, excitable, slightly all over the place, classic kind of entrepreneurial trait. 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.359 I definitely had that. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:50.640 What I don't have that is required to get it to the next phase of growth is being all over detail and process and structure and admin. 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.960 You know, I don't think in my 17 or 16 and a half years, I don't think I ever wrote one policy. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.160 How embarrassing is that? 00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:01.200 You know, policies were written, but I found it so hard to ever really check them or sign them off or even take it seriously. 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:05.200 And clearly, when you grow a business, you just magnify the number of problems that you have. 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:08.799 And so that's exactly why you do have to have things like

that to fall back onto. 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:14.079 You know, I was quite casual with things like the forecasts and the profit and loss reports. 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.519 I kind of knew it in my head intrinsically, but I've never explained it very well. 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:22.480 It came with some self-hatred in a way, I suppose too strong, but it's kind of true. 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:31.119 A year ago, recognizing all my flaws, I've done some work and I've realized actually, no, I'm really proud of my strengths, and it just took a little bit of time to work out. 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:35.440 My strengths were good for getting the business off the ground, for like inventing it and for getting it somewhere. 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.599 But what's needed now is someone different to me. 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.440 And actually, he is absolutely that. 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.759 So his capacity is much greater than mine. 00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:45.119 He doesn't feel things as strongly as mine, he's less emotional than mine, me. 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.759 He's a lot more logical, and actually, it's a great person to have to run the business day to day. 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:56.319 There's a great phrase I've often cited when I was going through this whole process of stepping down, which is E plus M equals S. 00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:01.200 Entrepreneur, which is me, plus manager, which is him, equals success. 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:02.559 So, look, he's different. 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:06.960 If someone walks into his office crying, he probably won't give them an hour and a half like I would have done. 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:08.800 I would have cancelled my entire afternoon. 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.440 That's different. 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:12.159 I'm not saying that's necessarily right or wrong, I'm just saying it's different. 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:13.119 He's less emotional. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:19.119 But he's the right person that's logical and detail oriented that can scale professionally and sustainably a business. 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:23.440 Yeah, but he's probably the culture you built is very much part of that business. 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:25.519 And I bet it's still very much part of that business. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:31.119 And in which case, I think what you did, Johnny taking over is it seems such a natural progression from the outside looking in. 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:32.159 But I'm sure that's true. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:36.719 And you know, we're obviously still close to you guys, and you know, Mike sees you and Johnny often. 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.000 So yeah, I think that's very good. 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:40.639 I like that we hired from within. 00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:49.840 You know, I like that as a message to the rest of the company that Johnny started 10 years ago on minimum wage, setting up inflatable slides and bouncy castles. 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.079 Like that's literally how he started in a gap year. 00:34:52.239 --> 00:35:00.639 He then kind of worked his way up across 10 years, ran the marketing team, then he ran the sales team, and then ultimately he got the kind of general manager or managing director role. 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:05.360 It's a lovely progression, but it says to everyone else around him, it's possible. 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.119 And also, this is a company that will first look to promote from within. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.719 It will first look to take its own talent and give them the opportunities. 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:19.119 You can rise, you can grow, which, like I said earlier, I think is a real important component of what most people fundamentally want. 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:27.280 So we've had this conversation before, and you said that when you left, the things that you lost or you left behind were purpose, structure, and social interaction. 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.360 Obviously, you can replace the latter, although you have chosen not to necessarily. 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:35.679 So you've spent so much of your life being extraordinarily good at understanding other people. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:41.440 I guess the next, and you know, from what you're doing now, your YouTube channel, your website, the work you're doing with other people. 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:47.119 Is that helping you to understand more about yourself to saying, actually, you know, I wasn't actually that crap. 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:48.719 I actually was really good at what I did. 00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:56.000 And here's the new Matt Turner who's actually really quite cool and really knows this stuff and not the school geek and unsporty, and do you know what I mean? 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:57.440 I love the question, David. 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:02.719 Look, I think I only met you in person this year for the very first time in 2026. 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:09.119 And I think I want to say that, David, you're meeting the best version of Matt Turner that has ever been on the earth. 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.039 36 years old, the most comfortable in my skin I've ever been. 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:17.599 I am the most relaxed about what people about what people think of me, whether it's positive or negative. 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.119 I don't pander as quickly to other people's emotions. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:22.960 I can control what I can control. 00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:30.239 And probably most beautifully, I finally come to terms with feeling a bit of pride in what I have done the last 16, 17 years. 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:36.880 The way I was wired was always to focus on the negatives and things I got wrong, or people I let down, or people I upset, or where my emotion took over. 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:37.920 That's what I would focus on. 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:45.039 I trained my brain, I think, to just focus on imposter syndrome and fear and mistakes made and also comparison. 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:47.199 Why

am I not running a bigger company? 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.440 Why have I not reached the next milestone? 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.840 Why is that person over there on Instagram doing better than me? 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:58.079 And all that rubbish, all that stuff that carries with you that I never really solved until I started taking myself on, like I talked about earlier. 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:01.360 And so, like now, I'm not even nervous to do the podcast with you. 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.039 Like, it's such a beautiful place to be that's taken me 36 years to get here. 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:06.239 And by the way, I'm not perfect. 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:10.079 There's still gonna be up and downs, but like I'm not even nervous to do this anymore. 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:23.760 This would have absolutely terrified me two years ago because I would have started the conversation thinking there's nothing I have to offer or to add that David doesn't already know and that is interesting to him, and he's gonna write this episode off as a poor guest. 00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:25.519 That's how I would have started the conversation. 00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:29.360 What a waste of energy that's going through my head for an hour-long conversation. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.760 But that's the mat story you would have met two years ago. 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.480 And the mat now is like, I'm just gonna show up as me. 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:41.920 I will be as just transparent and as human and as authentic as I am, and you and your listeners can decide in their own minds if I'm interesting or not. 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:44.079 And either way, I actually don't really mind that much. 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.639 Either way, because I like myself and because the people in my life seem to really love me too. 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:50.079 And that's I think that's important to me. 00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:50.960 And that's changed. 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:52.639 That's tremendous growth for me. 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.400 Yeah, and I think it's very difficult. 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.440 And you know, 36 is not that old, and 34 is not that old. 00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:00.880 But I think, you know, when I was growing up, like you, I lost a parent very young. 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:04.719 I had an incredibly confusing, I suppose my twenties are very confusing. 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:10.719 And and it took me an awful long time to realize who I was, and it took me an even longer to like myself. 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:12.960 And I I think that was down to mostly to my family. 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:17.679 You know, I never thought I'd be a good dad, but then out of nowhere, apparently, I became quite a good parent. 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.039 So that was a lovely part of that. 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:23.280 But I think you're right, when you get to a point in your life when you think to yourself, do you know what? 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.360 And it doesn't matter how old you are, I'm okay. 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:27.199 I'm actually I'm really happy with who I am. 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:32.719 Life's not perfect, it's never gonna be perfect, but it's pretty damn good, and that's a great place to be. 00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:34.320 I actually completely agree. 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:54.079 And actually, by the way, and I really hope this is helpful to someone, I really warmed to you, as in David, because the first conversation we ever had, you spoke straight off the bat about therapy and things you are unhappy about in your life, and I guess limiting beliefs and limiting stories that you told yourself that perhaps weren't true but needed some work. 00:38:54.239 --> 00:39:02.480 And I kind of rated you so highly to be that in touch with your emotional self or your actual or your habitual self that I thought, gosh, this guy's like a real person. 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.079 There's no bravado or ego here. 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:11.679 And the reason I want to say that is because I think most people think that when they reveal themselves a bit and be a bit vulnerable, that the other person across them will think less of them. 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.199 And I couldn't disagree more. 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:14.320 The opposite is true. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.960 I warned you, I said I didn't get paid to do these podcasts. 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:24.400 I said yes to this because in the interaction we've had both online and in person, you have been nothing but authentic and real and kind and human. 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:25.679 And that's the relatable bit. 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:37.119 And I wish we lived in a world where humanity, flaws, imperfections, fears were more spoken about and more normalized because it would help everyone feel less alone and less isolated. 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:41.599 I'm flattered and very honored that you say that, because you know, I felt very much the same as you. 00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:47.440 We had that conversation just before you were about to go on stage to do a tool, but probably which you were absolutely terrified about doing. 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.079 I was more nervous when I first did them a few years ago, and again, nowadays, like my heart store races. 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.519 I do know what that day, I was just found in a picture the other day. 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:01.039 So the first day I met you, I was about to go on stage and I'd written on my hand, the storm is over. 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:12.320 And it's a metaphor to remind myself of that kind of scared kid that we started talking about an hour ago, of that kind of world I lived in, which I didn't feel happy, complete, or safe in. 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.559 I would have likened it to some kind of storm. 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:21.519 You know, I'm on like this boat and I'm holding on to a mast with like all my might and all my strength, desperately trying to hold on for dear life.

00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:25.199 That's like, it sounds dramatic, but that's really how I grew up. 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:27.119 And that's a lot of the early part of my life. 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:29.840 And actually running a business, I'm holding onto this mast even more so. 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.000 I'm literally, the thing is flipping shaking. 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.199 Everything around me is up and down and noisy and loud and cracking. 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.000 And I'm for dear life holding onto this mast. 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:45.920 And I think as a metaphor, that's so much of how I thought and how I behaved and how I acted and how I saw myself and saw my world. 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:50.960 And the thing I rolled my hand just before I went on stage that day was, Matt, the storm is over. 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:54.719 And it's a reminder that there are still going to be stormy seasons ahead. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.480 I told you earlier, I'm going to a funeral tomorrow. 00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:58.159 There are still difficult things in my life. 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.480 My brother has stage four cancer right now, you know? 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:02.559 There are so many complex issues right now. 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:05.360 But the storm, the way in which I saw it, it's over. 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:06.400 I'm actually okay. 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:07.119 I'm safe. 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:08.559 I'm okay with myself. 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:09.840 And there will be another one. 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:10.480 But do you know what? 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.679 You'll be able to deal with that storm. 00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:12.719 So what's going to come next? 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:17.119 For anyone who hasn't seen Matt's YouTube channel, I would strongly urge you to go and watch it. 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.599 Some of them, I mean, I've been sharing them with my slightly work shy daughter, but they're fantastic. 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:23.840 I definitely urge everyone to go and watch them. 00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:27.920 But for you, yeah, you're going to do a bit of consultancy, coaching, whatever you want to call it. 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.159 What's the next full chapter of this? 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.199 The next chapter hasn't been written, and I have literally taken a year off. 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.079 I basically, broadly speaking, haven't earned anything. 00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:40.000 I haven't taken on clients. 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.880 I physically didn't go into clownfish. 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:50.079 I made a point of not speaking about it in any real sense to Johnny for at least about 10 of those 12 months of the first 10. 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.559 It's been a massive reset, actually. 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:54.559 I have done a lot of lunches. 00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.480 It amazes me that I'm not more overweight. 00:41:56.559 --> 00:42:06.159 But I've done a lot of lunches with a lot of people that were very kind to me or friends of mine across the last 16 years who I largely ignored or only gave an hour to, but now I can give four hours serious. 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:06.559 Lovely. 00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:10.639 We bought a dog and I walk him every day, and that's changed my life in various ways. 00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:18.000 I started playing the piano again, and that is something that I kind of stopped doing when I left school, and I really kind of regret or miss. 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:19.679 I've started reading for the first time in my life. 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.480 I'm also living in a, we're going through a big kind of 12-month, pretty gigantic house refurbishment. 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:26.960 So I'm kind of half involved in that. 00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:28.559 So I got through the year. 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.880 I'm now, I've just started this YouTube channel, and it's all free. 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.960 It's all my only real desire is, I guess it's twofold. 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.880 There's a there's a commercial reason, and then there's a kind of personal reason. 00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:42.480 The personal is probably more important to me. 00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:46.639 The personal is what would I have wanted to watch when I was running a business? 00:42:46.800 --> 00:43:05.280 How could I help leaders and founders particularly manage their teams, increase or improve their culture, both to make their employees' lives better and richer, but also because by doing so, I can teach you and you can understand that it will actually help your bottom line more than you ever thought it could by getting your team to perform as A players. 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:13.440 And so I'm just putting out it's lots of things I've done on stage or podcasts like this, it's kind of clipped up, they're kind of best bits, and they're clipped up and they're put on YouTube every Monday. 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.199 So that's the kind of personal reason to do it. 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:17.760 I find it helpful when the feedback has been largely positive. 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:32.639 And the commercial reason is, which isn't really actually secondary, but I guess there has to be a commercial reason because it does cost money to do these things, is that I found that the people that have wanted to work with me, if you've engaged in 10, 20, 30, 60, 90 minutes with me, I've already sold you. 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:37.119 But if you've consumed an hour of me, then the truth is that's probably all you need to say. 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:40.639 You speak my language, I can relate to you, you're my kind of person. 00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:41.760 Please can I work with you? 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.079 And so I guess there's that floating around in the background. 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:49.920 But if I'm really frank, that is actually a secondary reason because there are only so many hours in the day, there are only so many clients I take

on. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.000 And actually, this coaching thing is not forever. 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:59.760 I think there probably is a second business in me, but I am kind of loving a reduced, metaphorically kind of uh lower shouldered or shoulder. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.119 Was more relaxed life. 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.199 You know, I have an amazing quality of life now. 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:10.320 You know, I start every day in Gail's coffee shop with a cappuccino and an egg, souffle, and spinach roll for£9.70. 00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.159 I'm amazed you're not fashion. 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.639 I know, but I also ran this morning with the dog. 00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:16.719 I did 5k at 6 15 a.m. 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:17.199 this morning. 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.280 So, you know, I kind of balance that a bit. 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:23.599 So I am joined Squash of Life, but I think this coaching and mentoring thing is for now. 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:24.800 It's probably not forever. 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:28.320 I'm not a great believer in selling time for money, which is kind of what I'm doing. 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:36.480 There are a couple of people that want me to invest into their business, and there's a couple of ideas that I have, but I think I'm putting all that off for another year or two because I'm actually just quite enjoying this season of life. 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:48.880 And it feels like the most almighty coming down from what was a hell of a mountain that was climbed through my very kind of informative years of impressionable years of sort of 16, 17, 18 years old, all the way through to 35. 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.480 Well, I would urge you, whatever you do at age 36, not to do anything yet. 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:54.480 I mean you've got so much time ahead of you. 00:44:54.719 --> 00:45:00.480 Anyway, we always finish with a quick far round and haven't seen these questions, so Lord knows what you're going to answer. 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:01.199 So here we go. 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:01.840 10 questions. 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:04.320 Your most influential person can be dead or alive? 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:05.440 Robbie Williams. 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:07.039 Wow! Why? 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:11.760 I know that's random, but I watched him on television in 2003. 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:13.519 So I was 12 or 13 years old. 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:14.880 It was live at Nebworth. 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:16.719 It was the greatest and biggest concert. 00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:18.159 It broke all records at the time. 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:22.559 He sold three nights at Nebworth, 125,000 people per night. 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.920 Basically, half a million people came to see him live. 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:30.480 He was at the absolute peak of his fame, and it was broadcast live to millions on television. 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:32.719 And I remember watching that and jaw dropped. 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:34.400

Like, who is this performer? 00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:36.239 This is what the best in the world looks like. 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.079 And I remember saying to my mum who was ironing, I was like, How can someone do this? 00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:41.920 How can a human being get this big? 00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.000 And she said, Well, he's the best in the world. 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:45.199 So this is how you do it. 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:48.880 And that moment, I think, became a moment of like flipping egg. 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:50.400 Imagine being the best in the world. 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:51.360 What would that take? 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.440 Like, how could that come to fruition? 00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:55.519 Like, what would it take to get the best for him? 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:59.039 He had the best band, the best staging, the best camera crew, the best dancers. 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:00.559 He was live on television. 00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:02.719 It was like it felt like the biggest phenomenon at the time. 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:04.400 And I became a mega fan ever since. 00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:06.480 I was lucky enough to get to meet him in Las Vegas. 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:07.920 I've seen him probably 20 times. 00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:14.880 It's not very cool to say this, but weirdly, I probably prefer his kind of humanity and his authenticity almost more than his music. 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:20.239 I find him to be one of the most down-to-earth and real celebrities that exists. 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:24.400 He's so frank and so honest in his books, in his social media, in his interviews. 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:27.440 He's so honest about his demons, his past, his depressions. 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:29.840 He's so real about how scared he is of the world. 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:35.920 And I related so much the more I read, and yet he's still doing something amazing despite feeling so awful about himself. 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:44.239 And through the last kind of five, ten years of having kids and lots of therapy and some medication, he's really turned into this kind of thoughtful, calmer, happier person. 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:47.519 It's a beautiful story, and I really rate the authenticity of it. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:48.559 There's the long answer. 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:50.239 I don't know whether you're a business book reader. 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:51.679 I suspect you probably have read a few. 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.679 The best business book you've read. 00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:55.679 Uh it's so embarrassing. 00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:58.320 I've never read a business book, Front of Tobacco. 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:00.239 That's absolutely fine, no problem at all. 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:01.519 Um, your number one movie. 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.000 Enemy of the State with Will Smith. 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:04.960 Very old film. 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:05.440 Yeah. 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:07.199 Wow, that's clucked out

of nowhere. 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:14.159 Yeah, that is random as well, but it's all about that the little guy can win against the big machine, which was a CIA at the time. 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.559 I try and remember who his co-star was with that. 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:18.880 Yes, I don't know his name, but I know exactly who he is. 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:19.360 Yeah. 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:20.079 Good movie. 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:21.440 Um favorite drink? 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.559 Coke Zero, no ice, one straw and one slice of lemon. 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:25.920 Very specific. 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:30.000 The small mountain you were down, so little things that drive you crazy. 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:34.480 I don't like people chewing loudly, especially in the cinema. 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:44.880 I have been known to walk out of a cinema because they call it misophonia, where your brain kind of disproportionately concentrates on a small sound of chewing or popcorn crunching, and I cannot take it. 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:49.760 It's louder to me than the actual film in front of me is, so that's the thing I would ban chewing in cinemas. 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:58.000 Yeah, I don't know whether you've ever come across a Kermode Mayer film review, but they have a code of conduct which means that you absolutely can't eat any food that makes a noise. 00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:01.280 A soft roll, they advise, is the only thing you're allowed to eat. 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:03.760 Um, your passion away from the event industry. 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.280 It's new for me. 00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:09.519 I have fallen in love with going on dog walks, which is something I never did in my life. 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:16.480 We didn't grow up with animals at all, but I fall in love with the beauty of nature and walking, particularly with a dog that I happen to love. 00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:19.840 That has been one of the greatest changes in my life in the last 12 months. 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:21.840 I never thought I'd be that person, but I love it. 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.039 But don't you find it just gives you so much time to think? 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.719 Yeah, I've met so many people also by dog walking, just by bumping into neighbours, and I'm I'm so fortunate where we live. 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:35.119 It's just kind of beautiful, and we're surrounded by uh fields and lakes and horses. 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:41.199 And I walked into a pub last night across this field, watching the sunset, and I just said to myself, I'm so lucky. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:41.760 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.880 I know exactly what you mean. 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:44.079 Hidden talent. 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:48.559 Yeah, people don't really know that I play the piano and or even drums. 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.239 You know, I I actually got a music scholarship when I was school. 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:53.840 It was the one thing I was kind of good

at. 00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:57.599 It wasn't very cool though, and they forced me to sing as part of the scholarship. 00:48:57.760 --> 00:48:59.280 And uh that wasn't very trendy. 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:00.480 But could you sing though? 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:03.039 I mean I could sing because I could vaguely read music. 00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:05.519 My tone was great, but I could sing the notes. 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:12.320 And so I think music, most people would never know me for, and no one's really seen me play, and it's something that's coming back slowly. 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.920 My next question is dogs or cats, but there's no point asking it because clearly it's dogs. 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:18.480 If you'd asked me 13 months ago, I would have said neither. 00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:20.480 We never had pets growing up, it wasn't normal. 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:22.800 So it's been a new uh addition to my life. 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:24.559 Little bit of thought required for this one. 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.760 Three people, alive or dead, you'd like to have dinner with, and why? 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:33.760 Robbie Williams, because I would ask him all about the internal of his brain. 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:38.639 I'm absolutely fascinated by his story, his journey, and where he's come from, where he is now, and how he's done that. 00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.159 Dolly Parton. 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:42.559 Wow, you wouldn't have said that two months ago. 00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:43.119 Correct. 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:48.000 And actually, I the reason I'm saying that is because the tr the real truth is I didn't know much about her. 00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:50.800 I know of her, but I I wouldn't call myself a super fan. 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:54.800 I never really got to, she never really came off my algorithm, which is how you discover people these days. 00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:56.400 I appreciate she's had quite a life. 00:49:56.559 --> 00:50:04.159 But I one of the things I've found fascinating since she died is the kind of press around her for a lot of the beautiful and great things she did. 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:12.000 I did not know that apparently it's true that when she had the choice to become a billionaire, that she declined that and ended up giving more money away because she didn't want that status. 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:13.119 It's kind of fascinating. 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:18.639 I guess also interestingly, particularly in America where I do spend lots of time at the moment, like it's so polarized. 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.760 Like there's hardly any people that cut through both left and right. 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:27.199 Actually, the commentary on both sides, left and right of the political spectrum, was actually really positive. 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:32.719 And maybe her message of I think kind of love and hope and joy was more powerful than politics. 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.360 And I'd love to have her there to just ask how she did that, why it was important to her. 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:43.199 And I guess what her advice would be is to what feels like quite a broken, disconnected, unhappy, and divided world. 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:51.519 And the third would be my dad, because he never got to see the kind of best version of me that went through a few things. 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.239 And he never got to see the conclusion of my job. 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.599 Well, he never really, well, he certainly didn't get to see my new home. 00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.119 He had met Johnny, but not in that capacity, so he wouldn't have known about that. 00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:06.960 And I think he just missed some of the biggest years of my life, including the pandemic, you know, these massively formative years for me. 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:11.760 And so I'd love to have him there, frankly, just to update him on what he's missed. 00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:15.440 And my God, he'd enjoy the conversation between Dolly and Robbie. 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.440 I think it'd be a lively evening, actually, yeah. 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.159 And finally, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, I. 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:24.800 you know, doing a YouTube channel, the website, the coaching, what do you think you'd be doing instead? 00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:26.400 I'd love to be a therapist. 00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:39.119 I just think there's not much more joy in life than helping someone discover who they are, bring them out of their limiting beliefs, encourage them, reframe things, and just remove some of those blockers that we all seem to have. 00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:44.480 I think there's just so much sadness and depression in the world, and the stats around suicide are just horrific. 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:55.760 And it kind of points to this general unhappiness and actually the need for people to take themselves on, to solve a few things in their lives, to close a few loops, or maybe open a few leaps. 00:51:55.920 --> 00:52:04.320 And so I think being a therapist, I suspect, if I was trained, could be one of the greatest one-to-one leverage activities I could do in my life that would give me great purpose. 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:05.519 So it's probably that. 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.360 I suspect you'd be very good at it. 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:12.320 Listen, Matt Tanner, it's been an absolute privilege and a pleasure having you on the EMA Matters podcast. 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:13.599 Uh, thank you so much for being here. 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.480 Pleasure, David. 00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:15.039 Thank you for having me. 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:15.599 I'm very touched. 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:16.400 And I've actually loved it. 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:19.440 Thank you for your questions and uh thank you for being a friend, and thank you for being yourself. 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:20.480 My pleasure,