E 766 — Germany's New Startup Strategy Is Really a Scaleup Strategy의 전체 녹취록

growth stage, remain in Germany, 00:02:43.027 --> 00:02:46.039 and expand internationally from European base. 00:02:46.295 --> 00:02:52.350 That distinction matters. Germany does not primarily suffer from a lack of innovation, 00:02:52.350 --> 00:02:54.398 research, or company formation. 00:02:54.683 --> 00:02:58.758 It actually suffers from an incomplete conversion chain. 00:02:59.101 --> 00:03:03.350 Research does not reliably become a company. 00:03:03.524 --> 00:03:10.949 A company does not reliably become a scale-up, and a scale-up does not reliably remain in Europe. 00:03:11.564 --> 00:03:16.720 The new strategy is the clearest acknowledgement yet that Germany's central 00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:20.138 startup problem is now the European scale-up gap. 00:03:20.753 --> 00:03:24.695 A short note on where this comes from, because context matters. 00:03:24.962 --> 00:03:29.260 Startupway.io has followed the development of Germany's startup architecture 00:03:29.260 --> 00:03:31.341 across several federal governments. 00:03:31.672 --> 00:03:33.135 In 2021. 00:03:33.965 --> 00:03:40.215 We interviewed Thomas Zombeck, then Germany's Commissioner for Digital and Startups, 00:03:40.499 --> 00:03:44.308 about the federal government's 10 billion euro future fund. 00:03:44.662 --> 00:03:50.548 The core model was already visible then. Public capital would not replace private investment. 00:03:50.809 --> 00:03:56.341 It would mobilize it through the European Investment Fund, through KFW Capital, 00:03:56.870 --> 00:04:01.618 through venture funds, through selected direct investment vehicles. 00:04:01.949 --> 00:04:08.921 Yet Tom Beck described the public money as patient capital operating across a 10-year horizon. 00:04:09.321 --> 00:04:14.865 The mission was to multiply the federal commitment through private co-investments, 00:04:15.202 --> 00:04:18.731 not to build a wholly state-directed venture market. 00:04:19.387 --> 00:04:23.137 In 2023, we continued the conversation with Anna Christmann, 00:04:23.462 --> 00:04:26.371 then Germany's Commissioner for Startup and Digital Economy. 00:04:26.777 --> 00:04:32.426 I may add, Anna Christmann was from the Scholz government and Thomas Herzombek 00:04:32.745 --> 00:04:34.330 from the Merkel government. 00:04:34.632 --> 00:04:38.554 Frau Christmann, the first comprehensive federal startup strategy, 00:04:38.658 --> 00:04:42.594 added a broader institutional agenda. Funding. 00:04:43.292 --> 00:04:48.214 Employee ownership, female entrepreneurship, public procurement, 00:04:48.383 --> 00:04:52.754 resource spinoffs, regulatory sandboxes, access to data. 00:04:53.282 --> 00:04:57.682 At that point, the strategy had already moved beyond seed stage promotion. 00:04:57.961 --> 00:05:03.503 The 1 billion euro deep tech and climate fund addressed companies with longer 00:05:03.503 --> 00:05:08.155 development cycles. The European Tech Champions Initiative targeted Europe's 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:10.633 shortage of later stage growth capital. 00:05:10.933 --> 00:05:17.048 The 2026 strategy does not replace that architecture. It actually extends it. 00:05:17.448 --> 00:05:21.767 The line running through all these three phases is clear. Germany has spent 00:05:22.121 --> 00:05:27.903 the past five years building the individual components of a startup financing 00:05:27.903 --> 00:05:30.591 system, what I also call the financing stack. 00:05:30.945 --> 00:05:37.219 It is now trying to make those components operate as an integrated scale-up system. 00:05:37.753 --> 00:05:43.285 That is real difference and it changes how we should read the new document. 00:05:43.715 --> 00:05:47.906 The numbers show both progress and the unresolved problems. 00:05:49.237 --> 00:05:57.222 Let me get into the data. The government presents a German startup ecosystem with real momentum. 00:05:57.472 --> 00:06:00.206 I mean, guys, you know, we'll talk about it frequently. 00:06:01.237 --> 00:06:08.047 3053 startups founded in the first half of 2026, almost as many as in an entire 00:06:08.047 --> 00:06:11.734 2025, which totaled around 5300. 00:06:14.521 --> 00:06:20.357 As Minister Reiche puts it in her opening remarks, ein Sprung um 51% nach oben, 00:06:20.677 --> 00:06:26.317 a 51% jump over the same half of 2025. 00:06:26.317 --> 00:06:33.624 Start-up and scale-up employment reached roughly 522,000 people in 2024. 00:06:34.007 --> 00:06:40.735 German startups attracted 7.2 billion euros in venture capital in 2025, 00:06:41.037 --> 00:06:47.921 and Germany now counts 36 unicorns, up from 32 the year before. 00:06:48.380 --> 00:06:52.542 Reiche also highlighted a pool of capital that already exists in Germany, 00:06:52.954 --> 00:06:57.761 Kapitalsammelstellen in German, like pension funds and serious foundations. 00:06:58.214 --> 00:07:06.747 They manage 2.8 trillion, yes, with a T, euros in assets. Private wealth totals roughly 10 trillion. 00:07:06.991 --> 00:07:08.819 Talent is not the constraint. 00:07:09.075 --> 00:07:12.430 Capital is not the constraint. So what is it? 00:07:13.325 --> 00:07:18.094 Her own answer in one line, Venture capital Investition in Deutschland liegen 00:07:18.094 --> 00:07:22.014 bei 0,5% des Bruttoinlandsprodukts. 00:07:22.014 --> 00:07:30.754 In den USA sind es fast 2%, which means we see investments in Germany sit at 0.15% of GDP. 00:07:31.697 --> 00:07:37.043 So let's say a half percentage point. In the US it's closer to 2%, meaning fourfold. 00:07:37.438 --> 00:07:42.234 The strategy itself acknowledges that large financing rounds are still frequently 00:07:42.234 --> 00:07:44.061 led by international investors. 00:07:44.462 --> 00:07:51.784 The IPOs remain rare. That 92% of German startup exits take place through company 00:07:51.784 --> 00:07:54.412 sales, not stock market listings. 00:07:54.771 --> 00:07:57.511 Reicher framed the growth stage problem directly. 00:07:58.104 --> 00:08:03.374 In größeren Finanzierungsrunden verliert dann Europa

Anteil und Unternehmen 00:08:03.374 --> 00:08:07.339 wandern für große Finanzierungen in die Vereinigten Staaten nach Amerika. 00:08:07.653 --> 00:08:11.049 That's what we actually say in the startup scale-up gap. 00:08:11.467 --> 00:08:14.178 In larger financing rounds, Europe loses shares, 00:08:14.867 --> 00:08:18.826 and companies migrate to the US for capital. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:25.020 This is why a startup strategy based only on creating more companies would be insufficient. 00:08:25.258 --> 00:08:30.736 A country does not secure technology sovereignty by continuing incorporations. 00:08:30.991 --> 00:08:37.447 It actually secures technological sovereignty by retaining their ownership capabilities, 00:08:38.010 --> 00:08:42.950 IP production and decision-making as those companies scale. 00:08:43.507 --> 00:08:47.963 So, the venture market has to be assessed across the entire capital cycle, 00:08:47.963 --> 00:08:52.203 fundraising, entry valuations, view flow, follow-on financing, 00:08:52.336 --> 00:08:55.999 exits, taxation, availability of institutional capital. 00:08:56.649 --> 00:09:01.773 That is why we at Startup Radio have consistently treated KFW's research, 00:09:01.773 --> 00:09:06.361 venture capital and private equity indicators, as essential market infrastructure, 00:09:06.709 --> 00:09:09.339 not just as another quarterly report. 00:09:09.641 --> 00:09:16.050 The KFW Barometer draws on roughly 450 investors and tracks business conditions, 00:09:16.410 --> 00:09:22.226 expectations, fundraising, investment activity, valuations, and exit opportunities. 00:09:22.685 --> 00:09:25.163 That is the readout you need if 00:09:25.163 --> 00:09:29.179 you want to know whether the political architecture is actually working. 00:09:29.742 --> 00:09:35.309 Political announcements matter. Capital market conditions determine whether they work. 00:09:35.652 --> 00:09:39.863 And here's a line from this morning's press conference that I think may become 00:09:39.863 --> 00:09:41.875 the most quoted number from the whole event. 00:09:42.090 --> 00:09:47.293 Asked by newspaper Tagesspiegel Daily Mirror about the private pension pillar, 00:09:47.293 --> 00:09:49.323 Reiche produced this calculation. 00:09:49.671 --> 00:09:56.794 If German institutional investors allocate venture capital at 2% of assets like their US peers. 00:09:58.414 --> 00:10:04.568 That delta alone would produce a 30 billion euro annual investment. 00:10:05.038 --> 00:10:08.752 Her exact words, wir lassen einfach 30 Milliarden Euro liegen, 00:10:08.752 --> 00:10:10.047 die wir investieren könnten. 00:10:10.349 --> 00:10:14.819 We are simply leaving 30 billion euros on the table that we could invest. 00:10:15.289 --> 00:10:19.701 Her comparison to the mechanism out, during pension funds average, 00:10:20.218 --> 00:10:23.515 a minus 0.6% real return. 00:10:23.892 --> 00:10:30.542 Minus 0.6% real return. Swedish and Danish equivalents that invests in venture 00:10:30.542 -->

00:10:34.332 and public equities run at 7 to 11% plus 00:10:34.712 --> 00:10:39.542 a pension fund that invests in venture capital performs better and secures pension 00:10:39.542 --> 00:10:42.049 better than one that does not. 00:10:44.226 --> 00:10:49.729 Part three, the financing architecture is becoming more direct. 00:10:51.384 --> 00:10:56.660 The most important change in this strategy is not that more programs are being announced. 00:10:56.980 --> 00:11:01.790 It is that the government is becoming more willing to intervene across different 00:11:01.790 --> 00:11:03.655 layers of the capital stack. 00:11:04.126 --> 00:11:09.330 Here is what a strategy commits to. Extending the future fund beyond 2030, 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:12.490 creating scale-up direct through KFW, 00:11:13.477 --> 00:11:19.720 a direct investment vehicle, investing up to 300 million euros in funds that 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.522 finance first-of-kind industrial projects, 00:11:22.782 --> 00:11:28.587 launching HTGF5, the fifth generation of high-tech Grunnerfonds, in 2027, 00:11:29.097 --> 00:11:31.070 creating Wachstumsfonds No. 00:11:31.070 --> 00:11:34.746 2, expanding the European Tech Champions initiative, 00:11:35.274 --> 00:11:40.390 mobilizing more than 25 billion euros in private commitments through the WIN 00:11:40.390 --> 00:11:46.670 initiative, we talked about this frequently, improving secondary markets and exit conditions, and, 00:11:47.371 --> 00:11:51.052 expanding financing for strategic fields including deep tech, 00:11:51.325 --> 00:11:54.796 AI, biotechnology, and defense tech. 00:11:56.346 --> 00:12:00.955 Why does this matter? Because different companies fail at different points. 00:12:02.650 --> 00:12:06.088 A software startup may need seed funding, product market fit, 00:12:06.088 --> 00:12:10.138 and commercial distribution, a fusion company, a quantum company, 00:12:10.138 --> 00:12:14.289 a biotechnology company, and an advanced manufacturing company. 00:12:14.794 --> 00:12:19.769 Those need laboratories, demonstrating facilities, regulatory approval, 00:12:20.036 --> 00:12:26.153 project finance, venture debt, years of technical validation before meaningful revenues emerge. 00:12:26.629 --> 00:12:28.876 The strategy recognizes this. 00:12:29.468 --> 00:12:33.218 It proposes financing for first-of-kind projects. 00:12:33.218 --> 00:12:38.401 It commits to milestone-based support for fusion startups through Sprint, 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:43.528 a German agency for disruptive innovation, including potential co-financing 00:12:43.528 --> 00:12:48.218 of technology demonstrators for magnetic and laser fusion. 00:12:48.780 --> 00:12:53.605 Here's the sentence I want you to hold on to. Deep tech cannot be financed, 00:12:54.051 --> 00:12:57.280 as if it were SaaS with a laboratory attached. 00:12:58.307 --> 00:13:04.745 That is the frame that should guide how investors and policymakers read the entire document. 00:13:05.285 --> 00:13:09.888 Germany's economic strength lies in complex industrial systems, 00:13:09.888 --> 00:13:16.128 scientific research, engineering, specialized manufacturing, and regulated markets. 00:13:16.337 --> 00:13:20.228 A credible German startup strategy therefore cannot simply replicate Silicon 00:13:20.228 --> 00:13:23.051 Valley's preferred company and capital model. 00:13:23.725 --> 00:13:29.008 It has to finance the companies that Germany is structurally capable of producing. 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:32.084 That is what the strategy is trying to do. 00:13:33.691 --> 00:13:38.416 Chapter 4. Germany is building its own industrial reality. 00:13:39.119 --> 00:13:44.487 This is consistent with what we found in our 2026 analysis of Germany's digital 00:13:44.487 --> 00:13:46.015 hub and startup factories. 00:13:46.358 --> 00:13:52.795 Germany's startup ecosystem is decentralized because its economy is also decentralized. 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:57.167 Industrial capabilities are distributed across Munich, Berlin, 00:13:57.167 --> 00:14:03.326 Frankfurt, Hamburg, Dresden, North and Westphalia and many specialized regional clusters. 00:14:03.633 --> 00:14:08.917 The digital hubs coordinate market-facing ecosystems, the start-up factories 00:14:08.917 --> 00:14:14.407 increase university spin-off formation, private capital acts as an early validation 00:14:14.407 --> 00:14:17.471 mechanism, not a late-stage afterthought. 00:14:17.901 --> 00:14:20.937 This is not a single-city hyperscaler model. 00:14:21.297 --> 00:14:26.028 It reflects Germany's tradition of research institutions, industrial clusters, 00:14:26.272 --> 00:14:29.563 Mittelstand companies and hidden champions. 00:14:29.894 --> 00:14:33.777 The new strategy also reinforces this layered architecture. 00:14:34.433 --> 00:14:38.027 Exist set of factories address venture formation. 00:14:38.294 --> 00:14:44.290 A planned Exist Academy should professionalize university entrepreneurship support. 00:14:44.691 --> 00:14:49.410 A national intellectual property strategy, standardized spin-off contracts, 00:14:49.729 --> 00:14:58.094 an IP toolkit, and an IP deal database, all aim at reducing friction in technology transfer. 00:14:59.435 --> 00:15:05.427 Real labore and experimentation clauses are designed to bring regulated innovation 00:15:05.427 --> 00:15:07.406 closer to market deployment. 00:15:07.696 --> 00:15:10.177 But, and this is critical, startup 00:15:10.177 --> 00:15:14.720 factories can increase the number of companies leaving universities. 00:15:15.103 --> 00:15:19.525 They cannot by themselves create the capital, the customers, 00:15:19.856 --> 00:15:25.737 and the exit markets required to turn those companies into global category leaders. 00:15:26.189 --> 00:15:30.067 That is where the scale-up strategy begins. Part 5. 00:15:30.311 --> 00:15:35.710 Public procurement may matter more than another funding program. 00:15:37.115 --> 00:15:43.390 Let me point out what I think is the single most

economically important measure in this whole document. 00:15:43.982 --> 00:15:48.149 It received far less attention than the new financing vehicles. 00:15:48.149 --> 00:15:54.159 Only 7% of German startups had public sector customers in 2025. 7%! 00:15:54.925 --> 00:16:02.529 The strategy responds by introducing a special direct award threshold of 100,000 00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:06.000 euros for federal procurement from innovative startups. 00:16:06.367 --> 00:16:12.420 The related rules enter into force in the first half of July 2026. 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.639 They are intended to make bilateral negotiation awards easier, 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:23.246 reduce excessive eligibility requirements, and accelerate payments. 00:16:23.640 --> 00:16:28.269 This addresses one of Europe's deepest contradictions. European governments 00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:35.350 frequently subsidize innovation and then purchase established foreign technology. They fund the supply. 00:16:35.662 --> 00:16:37.770 They fail to create the demand. 00:16:38.107 --> 00:16:42.298 So here's the line, Europe does not only have a venture capital gap, 00:16:42.618 --> 00:16:44.835 it has a venture client gap. 00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:51.329 For B2B startups, for GovTech cybersecurity, AI, defense and industrial technology 00:16:51.329 --> 00:16:59.283 companies, a credible, really credible first customer can be more valuable than yet another grant. 00:16:59.719 --> 00:17:04.571 Public procurement provides revenue, validation, references. 00:17:05.367 --> 00:17:12.128 A route towards scale. It can also reduce dependence on international investors 00:17:12.481 --> 00:17:16.755 by improving the underlying commercial quality of European companies. 00:17:17.061 --> 00:17:22.329 The decisive question is therefore not whether procurement law technically permits 00:17:22.329 --> 00:17:26.095 public authorities to buy from startups, that is now settled. 00:17:26.372 --> 00:17:31.659 The decisive question is actually whether procurement officials will actually 00:17:31.659 --> 00:17:33.652 use these new instruments. 00:17:34.790 --> 00:17:41.265 Because 100,000 euro direct award threshold that nobody in the ministry knows 00:17:41.265 --> 00:17:45.813 about how to use is not a scale-up strategy, it's a footnote. 00:17:47.236 --> 00:17:52.013 Port 6, Defense Tech is a clear signal of the policy shift. 00:17:52.315 --> 00:17:59.153 The most politically visible section of the strategy is the dedicated feel for security and defense. 00:17:59.577 --> 00:18:04.035 Germany plans to establish a federal direct investment vehicle for startups 00:18:04.035 --> 00:18:08.685 and scale-up producing clearly military-used products and services, 00:18:08.987 --> 00:18:14.210 including products converted by Germany's war weapons control framework. 00:18:14.628 --> 00:18:20.025 It also plans dedicated investments in defense-focused venture funds and a stronger 00:18:20.025 --> 00:18:24.601 use of Sprint instruments for security and defense technology. 00:18:25.182 --> 00:18:28.659 This shift reflects an existing market reality. 00:18:29.199 --> 00:18:33.198 German defense tech startups and scale-ups attracted one. 00:18:34.737 --> 00:18:39.462 0.16 billion euros in venture capital in 2025. 00:18:39.938 --> 00:18:45.296 That is more than half of European defense tech venture investments. 00:18:45.714 --> 00:18:54.137 Defense represents approximately 17% of the German venture market compared with about 4% globally. 00:18:54.485 --> 00:19:00.934 And almost one quarter of German startups reportedly develop some form of dual-use products. 00:19:01.788 --> 00:19:05.155 17% versus 4% globally. 00:19:05.607 --> 00:19:13.785 That number should stop you. This is why Helsing matters more than as an isolated unicorn story. 00:19:14.128 --> 00:19:18.511 Helsing represents the convergence of AI, defense procurement, 00:19:18.813 --> 00:19:25.006 strategic autonomy, software-defined military systems and the European growth capital. 00:19:25.326 --> 00:19:31.589 It is precisely the kind of company a new strategy is designed to support, retain and reproduce. 00:19:31.978 --> 00:19:36.542 This policy shift is broader than the often used headline that Germany will 00:19:36.542 --> 00:19:38.288 now fund weapon startups. 00:19:38.741 --> 00:19:45.527 The real shift is that Germany has begun treating selected startups as strategic infrastructure. 00:19:46.038 --> 00:19:50.334 This also explains the government's focus on faster Bundeswehr, 00:19:51.187 --> 00:19:55.814 procurement, on SVI Connect and the Defense Alliance in Munich, 00:19:56.110 --> 00:20:01.262 on NATO Diana and the NATO Innovation Fund, on the Bundeswehr own, 00:20:01.793 --> 00:20:07.695 innovation structures, and on more predictable export control processes. 00:20:08.032 --> 00:20:13.877 DefenseTech is not separate from new startup strategy, it is the sharpest expression of it. 00:20:14.952 --> 00:20:20.026 Part 7. Startup Germany and the Friction Between Layers. 00:20:21.356 --> 00:20:26.636 The government also plans to expand Startup Germany into national umbrella brand 00:20:26.636 --> 00:20:29.999 and network connecting federal, state, and regional programs. 00:20:30.487 --> 00:20:36.402 The stated objectives include improving transparency, helping startups identifying support programs 00:20:36.820 --> 00:20:41.313 and international partners, strengthening the cooperation with established companies, 00:20:41.626 --> 00:20:45.945 and marketing Germany more effectively to investors, founders, and talent. 00:20:46.398 --> 00:20:52.016 Branding alone will not solve the scale-up gap, but current positioning matters 00:20:52.016 --> 00:20:57.920 in an ecosystem that international investors often find fragmented and difficult to navigate. 00:20:58.223 --> 00:21:00.754 Fortunately, there is Startup Radio, of course. 00:21:01.677 --> 00:21:07.296 An international investor may understand Berlin Software

or Munich Mobility 00:21:07.296 --> 00:21:12.266 or Frankfurt Fintech, but they may not automatically see how German research 00:21:12.266 --> 00:21:15.340 institutions, federal programs, state-level agencies, 00:21:15.874 --> 00:21:20.832 the partners from Mittelstand digital hubs, and startup factories all fit together. 00:21:21.186 --> 00:21:25.517 Startup Germany can be useful when it makes that system legible. 00:21:25.952 --> 00:21:30.606 But let me be clear, Germany does not need another slogan for entrepreneurship. 00:21:30.606 --> 00:21:34.119 It needs a navigable market architecture. 00:21:35.257 --> 00:21:41.631 Because the deeper problem, and this is the thesis of this whole episode, is this. 00:21:41.956 --> 00:21:46.519 Feud separately, Germany already has many other required components. 00:21:46.879 --> 00:21:51.802 Public Venture Commitments, KfW Capital, the European Investment Fund, 00:21:52.040 --> 00:21:57.115 the German ATGF, the Deep Tech Climate Fund, Sprint, the Exist Programmes, 00:21:57.115 --> 00:21:59.238 Startup Factories, Digital Hubs, 00:21:59.574 --> 00:22:04.779 universities, and applied research institutions, strong industrial customers, 00:22:04.994 --> 00:22:10.005 a large SME, Mittelstands-based, world-class engineering, a grown population 00:22:10.005 --> 00:22:12.053 of venture-backed technology companies. 00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:19.425 The unresolved problem is the handover between the layers. Research must reach founders. 00:22:19.884 --> 00:22:24.307 Founders must reach investors. Investors must fund forlorn rounds. 00:22:24.510 --> 00:22:31.807 Startups must reach the Customers and public institutions must become the venture clients. 00:22:32.069 --> 00:22:36.556 Scale-ups must access the industrial infrastructure. 00:22:36.765 --> 00:22:41.473 And European capital markets must eventually provide liquidity. 00:22:41.954 --> 00:22:48.694 Germany's challenge is not the absence of building blocks. It is the friction between them. 00:22:49.135 --> 00:22:53.460 Closing remarks and the benchmark that matters. So, the final assessment. 00:22:53.831 --> 00:23:00.252 Germany's new startup strategy is directionally stronger than its title suggests. 00:23:00.751 --> 00:23:03.107 It is also financing strategy. 00:23:04.081 --> 00:23:10.089 It is a research commercialization strategy, and it is also a procurement strategy. 00:23:10.339 --> 00:23:12.585 It is a defense tech strategy. 00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:16.254 It is an industrial policy strategy. 00:23:16.625 --> 00:23:21.885 And above all, it is an attempt to close the German and European scale-up gap. 00:23:22.407 --> 00:23:27.905 But the strategy's success will not be determined by the number of programs it announces. 00:23:28.230 --> 00:23:33.222 It will be determined by whether Germany can turn scientific excellence 00:23:33.570 --> 00:23:38.890 into investable companies, investable companies into scalable businesses and 00:23:38.890 --> 00:23:44.066 scalable businesses into enduring European technology leaders. 00:23:44.518 --> 00:23:51.955 Germany has learned how to support startups. It must now prove it can help build scale-ups. 00:23:52.471 --> 00:23:57.350 That is the benchmark. And this time, the market should judge the strategy not 00:23:57.350 --> 00:24:03.047 by its intentions, but by the companies that remain, scale, and win. 00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:08.457 This is Johan Menninger for Startup Radio, Europe's voice on startups, 00:24:08.602 --> 00:24:10.309 venture capital, and innovation. 00:24:10.553 --> 00:24:13.530 I'll be back soon. Until then.