Utilities are getting their messaging all wrong...here's how to fix it의 전체 녹취록

00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.380 Right when I started there in 2014, the first big ones were opening, so I was on the ground floor of that. 58 00:03:45.480 --> 00:03:49.460 And the wind industry was really born in the U.S. in the Palm Springs area. 59 00:03:49.700 --> 00:03:51.200 So, you know, that was convenient. 60 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:57.640 And also one of the best geothermal hotspots in the world is not too far from Palm Springs as well down in the Salton Sea area. 61 00:03:57.941 --> 00:04:01.780 So that's why there was an energy beat at that paper to begin with at a local paper. 62 00:04:01.900 --> 00:04:12.100 So that was, you know, ideal conditions for me to, you know, to sort of be a renewable energy reporter and to get into larger climate reporting from that and public land and water issues. 63 00:04:12.723 --> 00:04:14.560 So I was at the Desert Sun for four years. 64 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:28.060 Then I got the energy reporter job at the LA Times, and I was at the LA Times for seven years and transitioned from sort of straight energy reporting to the LA Times climate columnist, which is a role they created for me. 65 00:04:28.220 --> 00:04:29.660 I did that the last couple of years there. 66 00:04:30.322 --> 00:04:32.580 And that was just something that kind of developed naturally. 67 00:04:33.062 --> 00:04:34.960 I had been writing newsletters for a long time. 68 00:04:35.061 --> 00:04:37.460 I kind of got in early on the email newsletter game. 69 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:43.980 And so I was sort of naturally using first person voice and doing more analysis and adding kind of color commentary. 70 00:04:45.343 --> 00:04:49.520 And so becoming a columnist just kind of was a natural progression from that. 71 00:04:49.820 --> 00:04:56.300 And so, yeah, after 11 years of doing energy and climate reporting and analysis and commentary, 72 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.940 decided to branch out on my own, started Climate Colored Goggles, which you can sign up for 73 00:05:01.021 --> 00:05:02.339 at climatecoloredgoggles.com. 74 00:05:02.820 --> 00:05:03.579 We've got to get the pitch in. 75 00:05:03.961 --> 00:05:04.820 That was last October. 76 00:05:05.061 --> 00:05:05.698 I started that. 77 00:05:06.641 --> 00:05:11.820 So continuing to do some of the traditional energy and climate policy and politics reporting, 78 00:05:11.961 --> 00:05:16.060 But mixing that with climate and culture is sort of my main focus now. 79 00:05:16.320 --> 00:05:24.660 So sort of trying to delve beneath policy and politics and get at how do people form the ideas they do about this stuff? 80 00:05:24.900 --> 00:05:30.920 How is climate and clean energy, how is it portrayed in films and television and in music and in video games? 81 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:36.120 And how does it affect sports and how does the media portray these issues? 82 00:05:36.321 --> 00:05:40.560 What are the cultural forces and institutions that affect how people think about this stuff? 83 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:45.140 And then how does that ultimately, you know, sort of trickle into policy and politics? 84 00:05:45.281 --> 00:05:50.620 So trying to go sort of one level beneath and affect, you know, affect longer term change 85 00:05:50.681 --> 00:05:51.340 through those venues. 86 00:05:51.440 --> 00:05:56.280 But, you know, still following state houses and still, you know, following utilities and 87 00:05:56.624 --> 00:05:57.659 all that because it's all connected. 88 00:05:58.483 --> 00:06:00.060 Yeah, it certainly is all connected. 89 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.860 And I think that is something that we have hit on a lot in this show and in recent episodes 90 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:08.860 is this idea that the decisions of, you know, one agency, one regulator, one state house, 91 00:06:09.161 --> 00:06:16.560 They have a lot of effects that kind of have tentacles throughout this entire industry when we're looking at renewables and how those renewables scale. 92 00:06:16.940 --> 00:06:23.700 I think there's an interesting conversation to be had here, which is why we wanted to have you on the show so much, is that there is more than just policy. 93 00:06:23.820 --> 00:06:24.660 We can dig deeper. 94 00:06:24.760 --> 00:06:30.980 we can understand some of the motivations and the impetus behind a lot of these moves that have 95 00:06:31.321 --> 00:06:36.280 long-ranging impacts on renewables and on the energy industry more broadly, which is a great 96 00:06:36.320 --> 00:06:39.593 way to start talking about this role of storytelling that you bring up here. 97 00:06:39.613 --> 00:06:40.236 Economics, 98 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:46.340 technology, all important things, physics, when we're thinking about how we power the future, 99 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:48.046 what that power mix looks like. 100 00:06:48.407 --> 00:06:50.736 But you have put it as follows. 101 00:06:50.876 --> 00:06:51.960 If we want climate progress 102 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:53.948 in energy, transportation, and agriculture. 103 00:06:53.988 --> 00:06:56.780 We also need progress in pop culture, media, and sports. 104 00:06:57.521 --> 00:07:02.500 As those last three, pop culture, media, and sports, might pertain to energy, tell me a little 105 00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:07.060 bit about that connection, how those two might kind of feed into one another when we're looking 106 00:07:07.361 --> 00:07:11.920 at this climate progress and with regard to energy specifically, renewables progress. 107 00:07:12.380 --> 00:07:13.184 What's the overlap? 108 00:07:13.345 --> 00:07:16.320 If you want to make progress on the clean energy transition, you ultimately, 109 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:19.113 I mean, you need politicians who champion this stuff, right? 110 00:07:19.475 --> 00:07:20.440 But you ultimately need 111 00:07:20.661 --> 00:07:26.440 voters and stakeholders of all kinds who care about this and are willing to push for policies 112 00:07:26.621 --> 00:07:27.625 and push for

progress. 113 00:07:28.127 --> 00:07:31.080 And right now, if you just look at polling in general, I mean, I'm a climate 114 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:31.743 focused person. 115 00:07:31.763 --> 00:07:36.000 I know this is an energy podcast, but I think about energy through the lens of 116 00:07:36.080 --> 00:07:36.462 climate. 117 00:07:37.084 --> 00:07:40.939 And when you look at polling, what you see is most people care about climate. 118 00:07:40.999 --> 00:07:41.200 I mean, 119 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:46.440 maybe not a majority of Republicans, but a strong two-thirds-ish majority of Americans as a whole 120 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:48.109 will say, oh, yeah, I care about climate. 121 00:07:48.130 --> 00:07:49.115 I want more action on this. 122 00:07:49.155 --> 00:07:49.880 I'm worried about this. 123 00:07:49.900 --> 00:07:49.960 And 124 00:07:49.960 --> 00:07:54.880 then you look at, you know, what issues are most important to people, climate ranks really, 125 00:07:55.060 --> 00:07:59.435 really low relative to like almost every other issues that voters poll on. 126 00:07:59.756 --> 00:08:00.598 And so why is that? 127 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:06.800 It's because the, you know, the leaders and the cultural institutions that people are taking their 128 00:08:06.860 --> 00:08:09.390 cues on are just not focused on climate. 129 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:11.960 It's not something that people hear about when they, 130 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:15.780 you know, when they watch the news, when they're scrolling social media, when they're flipping 131 00:08:15.860 --> 00:08:17.266 through Instagram and TikTok. 132 00:08:17.708 --> 00:08:20.118 It's not something they're hearing about from athletes. 133 00:08:20.158 --> 00:08:20.520 Sports is 134 00:08:20.580 --> 00:08:24.614 probably the most profoundly influential cultural institution in America. 135 00:08:24.634 --> 00:08:26.400 You know, just the people 136 00:08:26.641 --> 00:08:30.739 and the institutions that people are taking their cues from are not climate focused right now. 137 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:30.779 I 138 00:08:31.060 --> 00:08:32.589 mean, that's true of politics as well. 139 00:08:32.609 --> 00:08:34.600 It's not something that politicians are super focused on. 140 00:08:35.701 --> 00:08:39.480 So that's, you know, that's why I'm trying to, you know, to get at it through this sort of 141 00:08:39.560 --> 00:08:41.386 cultural climate overlap thing. 142 00:08:41.406 --> 00:08:45.740 You know, just to give a few examples of that, you know, sports 143 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.790 right now is being profoundly affected by climate change. 144 00:08:50.873 --> 00:08:52.437 You know, we've got the 2028 Olympics that 145 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:54.462 are coming up. 146 00:08:55.405 --> 00:09:00.480 And we just had the 2026 Olympics in Italy, and it's getting harder and harder to 147 00:09:00.500 --> 00:09:01.986 host Winter Olympics. 148 00:09:02.167 --> 00:09:05.100 Places with cold enough weather

to provide enough snow, that was a serious 149 00:09:05.221 --> 00:09:06.808 problem they were having in Italy. 150 00:09:06.828 --> 00:09:09.300 They had to generate a lot of artificial snow, which is less 151 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:10.545 safe for athletes. 152 00:09:10.746 --> 00:09:14.260 I mean, it's just getting harder to play ice hockey outdoors in a lot of places. 153 00:09:14.420 --> 00:09:23.240 There's a lot of fears with 2034 in Salt Lake City that they're just not going to have the conditions to even host those Olympics in the way that we're used to. 154 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:27.660 We've got the 2026 World Cup coming up, you know, all across North America. 155 00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:36.560 And for the first time, FIFA is mandating heat breaks, which is just not a thing they've done in soccer before because there's worries about players getting hurt. 156 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:46.740 Meanwhile, you've got baseball teams, football teams, basketball teams, soccer all over the country and all over the world that have oil industry sponsors, including FIFA, by the way. 157 00:09:46.860 --> 00:09:49.280 Saudi Aramco is one of the major sponsors of FIFA. 158 00:09:49.700 --> 00:09:54.320 You know, while they're doing these mandatory, you know, climate exacerbated heat breaks that they've got to take. 159 00:09:55.021 --> 00:09:57.519 Do you have athletes that are talking about this in Europe? 160 00:09:57.760 --> 00:09:57.962 Yes. 161 00:09:58.003 --> 00:09:59.440 In the United States, not so much. 162 00:09:59.540 --> 00:10:01.220 So that's an interesting story to me. 163 00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:04.200 And, you know, entertainment, one that was on my mind just last night. 164 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:08.200 I just started the, this is an energy one that maybe is more relevant to this podcast. 165 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:10.000 I just started the new season of Hacks. 166 00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:12.240 I don't know if you watch Hacks or anyone else. 167 00:10:12.280 --> 00:10:12.798 I'm a huge fan. 168 00:10:13.462 --> 00:10:13.900 Great show. 169 00:10:14.682 --> 00:10:16.520 Just watched the season five premiere. 170 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:17.800 I'm a couple episodes behind. 171 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:21.800 There's a scene taking place in the desert in California on their drive back from Vegas 172 00:10:21.904 --> 00:10:22.299 to LA. 173 00:10:22.800 --> 00:10:24.840 And there were a bunch of shots of Ivanpah in the background. 174 00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:30.460 I don't know if you know Ivanpah, that big solar power tower project, you know, with 175 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.780 the big glaring towers that looks nothing like, you know, most solar PV. 176 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:47.000 Ivanpah has been like a hobby horse of mine for a long time from a solar storytelling perspective, because a lot of people really hate Ivanpah because it's way more expensive than other solar projects. 177 00:10:47.060 --> 00:10:52.000 It's had all these problems

with birds getting fried as they fly between the mirrors and the tops of the towers. 178 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:54.540 It hasn't worked the technology as well as expected. 179 00:10:55.421 --> 00:10:56.700 A bunch of money was expended. 180 00:10:57.021 --> 00:10:59.537 Government funds were expended to build this thing in the late 2010s. 181 00:11:00.020 --> 00:11:03.060 And then the technology didn't take off and solar PV became the thing. 182 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:11.500 And meanwhile, Ivanpah has become this like visual motif that still gets used everywhere for, you know, here's what solar looks like because it's so visually striking. 183 00:11:12.441 --> 00:11:16.860 Even I've been to like, you know, office buildings of utilities where they still have pictures of Ivanpah. 184 00:11:17.060 --> 00:11:18.300 And I'm like, what is this doing here? 185 00:11:18.380 --> 00:11:22.980 Like, this is not what, you know, even the utility, you know, the solar that you're procuring doesn't look like this. 186 00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:25.180 Why do you still have pictures of Ivanpah on your walls? 187 00:11:25.762 --> 00:11:30.860 and news editors will just put Ivanpah pictures on stories about solar that, you know, even the 188 00:11:31.061 --> 00:11:33.671 stories are all about PV because they don't know the difference. 189 00:11:33.933 --> 00:11:35.620 Anyway, so I just like, man, like 190 00:11:36.122 --> 00:11:39.780 get some, you know, like good landscape art for your, you know, for hacks of like, you know, 191 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:45.899 just regular PV solar, because that's 90%, 99% of what's blanketing the desert these days. 192 00:11:45.980 --> 00:11:46.040 And 193 00:11:46.442 --> 00:11:50.018 if people want to be offended by regular solar, have an argument about that, that's fine. 194 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:50.300 But like, 195 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:54.740 please, like stop trying to tell people that, you know, Ivanpah is what solar looks like, 196 00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:56.448 like that's not what solar looks like. 197 00:11:56.609 --> 00:11:58.880 So anyway, that's the kind of stuff that like animates me and 198 00:11:58.900 --> 00:12:02.280 just makes me think about what is the story we're telling folks about the energy transition. 199 00:12:03.543 --> 00:12:06.220 I don't know if that answered your question or not, but it was just on my mind because I was 200 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.365 just watching this last night. 201 00:12:08.249 --> 00:12:09.615 It totally does answer my question. 202 00:12:09.635 --> 00:12:10.860 I think it really digs to 203 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:16.740 the root of what this is all about, which is messaging, whether obvious, whether not obvious, 204 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:18.306 whether subliminal or not. 205 00:12:18.707 --> 00:12:21.780 Whether it's shots of a solar plant in the background of a TV show or 206 00:12:21.921 --> 00:12:26.100 oil advertising at a baseball stadium or, you know, the fact that newspapers are just telling 207 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:27.827 fewer and fewer climate stories. 208 00:12:27.887 --> 00:12:31.040 I mean, there are ways to approach this besides, you know, 209 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:36.340 in addition to advocating for good policies or, you know, trying to get costs down on the grid 210 00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:38.348 and showing that clean energy is cheaper. 211 00:12:38.388 --> 00:12:40.035 I mean, that's all important. 212 00:12:40.356 --> 00:12:41.360 But if people are still, 213 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.700 you know, like hearing from, you know, bad faith sources that like, you know, 214 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.720 Solyndra was a debacle and therefore government shouldn't, you know, pick winners and losers in 215 00:12:49.760 --> 00:12:54.440 the energy market and, you know, believing that, you know, there just need to be better stories 216 00:12:54.561 --> 00:12:58.860 that, you know, are showing up in cultural spaces where people are not like immediately tuning it 217 00:12:58.900 --> 00:13:01.333 out and saying, oh, that's just, that's just politics. 218 00:13:01.374 --> 00:13:02.540 That's just, you know, a Democrat, 219 00:13:02.761 --> 00:13:06.240 or that's just, you know, a solar, you know, executive trying to sell me something like, 220 00:13:06.740 --> 00:13:10.360 you know, you need to get into these more politically neutral cultural spaces and be 221 00:13:10.380 --> 00:13:11.626 able to tell stories there. 222 00:13:11.807 --> 00:13:13.114 You need to win at advertising. 223 00:13:13.134 --> 00:13:14.240 You need to win, you know, in 224 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:17.956 Hollywood, you need to win with sports, you need to win with video games. 225 00:13:17.976 --> 00:13:18.900 You know, otherwise you're 226 00:13:18.900 --> 00:13:20.908 going to keep losing to oil and gas in the long run. 227 00:13:21.290 --> 00:13:22.294 Yeah, absolutely. 228 00:13:22.354 --> 00:13:23.399 And I think this is really 229 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:28.460 the crux of this conversation is this idea of the sort of domino effect from, let's say, your 230 00:13:28.801 --> 00:13:34.400 favorite baseball player playing for a team that's not sponsored by an ONG giant, but instead someone 231 00:13:34.540 --> 00:13:34.741 else. 232 00:13:35.183 --> 00:13:40.120 It's not necessarily that that is going to directly influence the decisions that are made in 233 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:44.740 a utility boardroom, but it will influence the way that people think about the world around them, 234 00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:48.736 the way that people kind of understand renewables or even oil and gas itself. 235 00:13:49.117 --> 00:13:49.760 And I think that 236 00:13:50.041 --> 00:13:55.480 really is the core of this, is this idea of what people care about, how we can understand what 237 00:13:55.520 --> 00:14:01.020 people care about, how that changes the what of what they care about, I think is really interesting 238 00:14:01.141 -->

00:14:01.362 too. 239 00:14:01.864 --> 00:14:03.029 And I think this is all happening. 240 00:14:03.049 --> 00:14:05.500 We're having this conversation at a time when people 241 00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:11.060 are starting to care in the mainstream a lot more about energy than they have previously. 242 00:14:11.501 --> 00:14:18.020 And a lot of this is obviously driven by inflation and the increase in prices for energy for most everyday people. 243 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:28.300 But I think a lot of it is also driven by data centers and the idea that people don't want to look out their kitchen window and see a giant rectangle of cement in their neighborhood. 244 00:14:28.901 --> 00:14:34.320 That has pushed these energy conversations a lot more into the mainstream, regardless of where you are in the United States. 245 00:14:34.721 --> 00:14:42.540 I'm curious if that has any impact on this broader conversation about caring about renewables or understanding where your energy comes from. 246 00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:47.180 I think that there might be some overlap here, but I'm curious what you think, if there is any. 247 00:14:47.941 --> 00:14:49.059 I think the answer is yes. 248 00:14:50.541 --> 00:14:58.780 For sure, the affordability conversation and electric prices getting so high everywhere, gas prices because of what's going on in Iran, for sure. 249 00:15:00.082 --> 00:15:03.600 That's fueling a greater desire to understand and seeking information. 250 00:15:04.621 --> 00:15:06.006 Data centers, absolutely. 251 00:15:06.688 --> 00:15:10.000 I wish more people had gone to see, did you see Eddington, the movie? 252 00:15:10.682 --> 00:15:11.500 I did not, no. 253 00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:12.364 Eddington was great. 254 00:15:12.384 --> 00:15:15.560 It was very similar to One Battle After Another, for those who hadn't seen 255 00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:21.600 it, and kind of tone and theme, but weirdly like darker and creepier even than One Battle After 256 00:15:21.721 --> 00:15:22.062 Another. 257 00:15:22.102 --> 00:15:26.340 But it was about, tangentially about a data center development in a small town in New 258 00:15:26.380 --> 00:15:32.620 Mexico, and kind of the ripple effects of how that affected the politics of the small town. 259 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:41.006 And there were some references to, you know, renewable energy powering the data center and not so positive, honestly, but it was understandable why people felt the way they did. 260 00:15:41.606 --> 00:15:43.487 I think there's going to be more stories like that. 261 00:15:43.527 --> 00:16:02.600 But yeah, so the answer to your question is, I think people would want to want to understand more, you know, how that how that is then, if and how that is then going to translate into like people understanding that, you know, solar and wind are, you know, cheaper, and that with batteries, they, you know, are, you know, can be 262 00:16:02.780 --> 00:16:03.402 reliable. 263 00:16:03.803 --> 00:16:07.931 Iran is the volatility of, you know, relying on oil and gas. 264 00:16:10.356 --> 00:16:12.040 You know, it's one of 265 00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:16.020 the difficult things with the media environment we live in and with the sort of way that information 266 00:16:16.261 --> 00:16:23.700 ecosystems is broken down is that it's so hard to, it's so hard to know if like reality and the 267 00:16:23.760 --> 00:16:27.980 events that are happening around us will then translate into people getting good information 268 00:16:28.685 --> 00:16:30.600 and like understanding what's actually happening. 269 00:16:31.060 --> 00:16:32.699 Like if this were all 50 years ago 270 00:16:32.922 --> 00:16:34.760 and most people were getting information 271 00:16:35.082 --> 00:16:37.520 from a couple in like a local newspaper 272 00:16:37.661 --> 00:16:40.120 and a national newspaper and like a broadcast network 273 00:16:40.282 --> 00:16:41.639 and maybe one cable network, 274 00:16:42.965 --> 00:16:43.740 that would be one thing. 275 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:44.379 Then you'd say, okay, 276 00:16:44.520 --> 00:16:46.699 like the sort of obvious outcome of all of this 277 00:16:47.001 --> 00:16:50.560 is we probably develop a national energy policy 278 00:16:50.761 --> 00:16:53.560 that shifts us away from fossil and towards renewable 279 00:16:53.882 --> 00:16:56.619 for energy security and affordability reasons 280 00:16:57.283 --> 00:17:00.680 because people are going to understand that that makes sense and they're going to demand that from 281 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:01.583 policymakers. 282 00:17:02.546 --> 00:17:06.560 In reality, it's not really so simple because of the incentives that are 283 00:17:06.580 --> 00:17:11.240 governing our politicians and the fact that most people are just not getting good information and 284 00:17:11.320 --> 00:17:12.906 are getting fed bad information. 285 00:17:14.050 --> 00:17:16.640 And there's a million reasons for that, which probably we don't 286 00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:19.432 need to get into because the people listening to this understand what they are. 287 00:17:19.452 --> 00:17:21.460 The data center 288 00:17:21.641 --> 00:17:26.160 one is interesting, though, because that seems to be a little bit cross-partisan, where there's just 289 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:33.180 you know, anger and frustration with these kind of scary industrial forces coming into our 290 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.833 communities, and people just don't like it almost no matter what. 291 00:17:37.435 --> 00:17:38.680 And it's also interesting because 292 00:17:38.760 --> 00:17:43.760 they're also, you know, at the same time seems to be, there are some politicians who are skeptical, 293 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:48.360 who are skeptical of data centers, but a lot of politicians of both parties who want to accommodate 294 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:49.384 them no matter what. 295 00:17:49.404 --> 00:17:52.575 So I, that could scramble the equation a

little bit. 296 00:17:53.197 --> 00:17:53.840 I mean, it's been 297 00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:57.280 interesting to see, you know, even some Democrats who are trying to figure out, okay, like, can we 298 00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:58.585 use these as grid assets? 299 00:17:58.625 --> 00:18:02.880 Can we get them to help, you know, solve some of our affordability problems? 300 00:18:03.861 --> 00:18:05.367 I don't know how that's going to work out. 301 00:18:06.591 --> 00:18:08.900 I think it'll be interesting, you know, in, I mean, 302 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:14.160 California is not like a data center, you know, a data center, you know, it's not like a gold rush 303 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:17.494 here, like it is in, you know, Arizona or Virginia or some other places. 304 00:18:17.575 --> 00:18:18.820 But there's some interesting 305 00:18:18.961 --> 00:18:23.480 stuff happening in the legislature to try to figure out, like, cost containment structures 306 00:18:23.701 --> 00:18:28.560 and way to funnel revenues back into lowering the electric rate base or whatever. 307 00:18:29.261 --> 00:18:32.320 The thing that I am most interested in from a climate perspective, 308 00:18:32.461 --> 00:18:34.460 which I have not seen getting a lot of discussion, 309 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:39.840 is just like if the tech people ultimately are going to try to get 310 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.520 a lot of zero carbon energy infrastructure built to power these things, 311 00:18:43.580 --> 00:18:46.320 which we'll see, but it seems like they're going to have to 312 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:48.100 because there's such a big gas turbine backlog. 313 00:18:49.502 --> 00:18:52.620 But if they do, is that just going to displace a lot of the renewables 314 00:18:52.881 --> 00:18:56.293 and grid infrastructure that would otherwise go towards displacing fossil? 315 00:18:56.936 --> 00:18:58.080 And if so, is that 316 00:18:58.120 --> 00:19:00.390 going to make it a lot harder to meet climate goals? 317 00:19:00.631 --> 00:19:02.540 And on the face of it, I think the answer 318 00:19:02.620 --> 00:19:03.283 is yes. 319 00:19:03.323 --> 00:19:07.420 I don't see how the answer would not be yes to that, because there's just a limited supply 320 00:19:07.581 --> 00:19:12.440 of infrastructure and capital to go towards building renewables and building lines and 321 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.142 substations. 322 00:19:14.186 --> 00:19:15.531 So I'm pretty freaked out about that. 323 00:19:15.551 --> 00:19:18.120 I'm straying away from answering your question 324 00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:21.292 right now, but that's something that's on my mind. 325 00:19:21.914 --> 00:19:23.560 No, I think it's relevant for this 326 00:19:23.620 --> 00:19:24.623 conversation. 327 00:19:24.743 --> 00:19:30.920 This idea that the stories that are told, the narratives that emerge and that 328 00:19:31.301 --> 00:19:36.220 find their way to the top and that really seem to resonate with people the most, those have a lot of 329 00:19:36.300 --> 00:19:40.694 impacts on the ways that the economics of energy work as well. 330 00:19:41.276 --> 00:19:42.620 I think there's also something 331 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:46.460 interesting here that I'd love to kind of dig into your perspective on too that you mentioned 332 00:19:46.541 --> 00:19:48.220 that I think is very related here, 333 00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:51.100 this idea of the story around affordability, 334 00:19:51.703 --> 00:19:53.457 that one seems to be one that resonates 335 00:19:53.962 --> 00:19:55.540 with average everyday rate payers 336 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:57.620 a little bit more than supply chain, 337 00:19:58.123 --> 00:20:00.120 the gas turbines that are backed up for a decade. 338 00:20:00.821 --> 00:20:03.380 When we're talking about the story around affordability, 339 00:20:03.923 --> 00:20:05.500 we know that the cheapest new generation 340 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:07.380 to add to the grid is wind solar batteries. 341 00:20:08.462 --> 00:20:10.220 How do utility execs, 342 00:20:10.382 --> 00:20:12.060 or perhaps what would be some of your advice, 343 00:20:12.260 --> 00:20:13.620 given that you have experience 344 00:20:13.761 --> 00:20:15.680 in kind of understanding what storytelling works 345 00:20:15.700 --> 00:20:16.419 and what doesn't, 346 00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:34.060 What would you say to utility decision makers or leaders who might kind of be wondering how to tell that story around affordability when so often affordable energy and renewable energy are kind of put at odds with one another in the national conversation around, you know, what a clean energy future looks like? 347 00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:38.240 Tell me a little bit more about about what that storytelling could be for utility pros. 348 00:20:39.223 --> 00:20:44.740 Yeah, I mean, I think the so it's not like I haven't exactly talked to like, you know, 349 00:20:45.182 --> 00:20:47.579 than a comprehensive survey of utility executives. 350 00:20:47.901 --> 00:20:50.940 So I don't want to generalize so much that I think I know everything here. 351 00:20:51.020 --> 00:20:55.520 But in based on the folks that I've talked with and what I've seen from the utility industry, 352 00:20:55.781 --> 00:20:59.840 I think that, you know, right now folks are trying really hard to like avoid. 353 00:21:00.101 --> 00:21:01.680 I mean, this is true across corporate America. 354 00:21:01.821 --> 00:21:05.620 Like folks are trying really hard to avoid stepping on too many tripwires with Trump 355 00:21:06.568 --> 00:21:07.940 and with all of Trump's people. 356 00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:10.140 Like, you know, what you just said is true. 357 00:21:10.260 --> 00:21:13.000 Like, they all know that solar and wind and batteries are cheaper. 358 00:21:13.841 --> 00:21:18.800 Like, to the extent that there's still investment in, you know, the gas fleet, 359 00:21:19.522 --> 00:21:23.237 it's, you know, really geared towards, you know,

reliability of, you know, 360 00:21:24.140 --> 00:21:26.320 like hardcore reliability scenarios. 361 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:28.880 I mean, in California, it's really geared towards, like, 362 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.738 maintaining the existing gas fleet as, like, a backup. 363 00:21:33.280 --> 00:21:35.540 You know, it's not a lot of new—there's no new investment. 364 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:36.826 in gas in California. 365 00:21:36.846 --> 00:21:39.620 And I know there's some new gas getting built elsewhere in the country that 366 00:21:40.142 --> 00:21:42.231 honestly seems more political than anything. 367 00:21:42.251 --> 00:21:44.220 Like I sometimes wonder the utilities like, 368 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:48.860 you know, utilities and some of the independent power producers like proposing this stuff now 369 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.080 in hopes that by the time they actually have to sign the contracts for the turbines, like someone 370 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:58.380 new will be in office and they can just, you know, slough it off and go to, you know, go do 371 00:21:58.440 --> 00:21:59.385 renewables instead. 372 00:21:59.445 --> 00:22:00.992 Like it's speculation. 373 00:22:01.092 --> 00:22:02.840 But I think there's a lot of, you know, trying really 374 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.971 hard to navigate the political atmosphere. 375 00:22:04.991 --> 00:22:06.880 And who knows, maybe some of the regulated utilities 376 00:22:07.021 --> 00:22:08.709 are just thinking they can rate base it anyway. 377 00:22:08.749 --> 00:22:10.136 So who cares what the cost is? 378 00:22:10.217 --> 00:22:10.880 Like, I mean, 379 00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:15.197 some states are really bad where they, you know, the PUCs will let them do anything. 380 00:22:15.337 --> 00:22:16.040 So I don't 381 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:17.627 know what the dynamic looks like everywhere. 382 00:22:17.667 --> 00:22:20.440 But to actually try to answer your question, I mean, 383 00:22:20.862 --> 00:22:26.040 I think the answer is that folks need to take marketing and advertising much more seriously. 384 00:22:27.740 --> 00:22:31.679 I mean, I've had conversations with utility executives about this, you know, just about PR 385 00:22:32.061 --> 00:22:35.439 problems in general where I've asked questions like, you know, what are you doing to manage this, 386 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.464 you know, crisis? 387 00:22:36.484 --> 00:22:38.032 What are you doing to manage that crisis? 388 00:22:38.092 --> 00:22:39.640 And like the answer is freaking, 389 00:22:39.800 --> 00:22:43.280 oh, well, we're, you know, we're going to, you know, work really hard to show people, you know, 390 00:22:43.360 --> 00:22:45.831 how we're working to make this cheaper. 391 00:22:45.911 --> 00:22:47.960 And we're going to work really hard to, you know, show how 392 00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:50.050 we're, you know, getting better at managing this problem. 393 00:22:50.070 --> 00:22:51.839 And it's like, yes, that's all

good. 394 00:22:51.879 --> 00:22:51.980 Like 395 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.803 you should be doing that. 396 00:22:52.863 --> 00:22:55.454 Like facts matter and doing a better job matters. 397 00:22:55.494 --> 00:22:56.919 But also it's like 398 00:22:57.602 --> 00:22:59.007 people really don't like utilities. 399 00:23:00.532 --> 00:23:01.395 And I get it. 400 00:23:01.415 --> 00:23:03.000 I've written plenty of negative stories about 401 00:23:03.080 --> 00:23:03.603 utilities. 402 00:23:03.623 --> 00:23:07.140 It's like, I really wish you guys would stop fighting rooftop solar when it's so popular 403 00:23:07.983 --> 00:23:12.019 and when it's necessary from a climate standpoint and from an energy transition standpoint. 404 00:23:12.159 --> 00:23:12.320 Like, 405 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:12.681 I get it. 406 00:23:12.701 --> 00:23:16.920 It's not good for your business model, but you're not doing yourselves any favors here 407 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:18.165 in the short or the long term. 408 00:23:18.205 --> 00:23:20.636 But, you know, you have a real image problem. 409 00:23:21.118 --> 00:23:21.600 You're important 410 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:22.705 for electrification. 411 00:23:22.725 --> 00:23:25.918 You're needed partners from a climate perspective. 412 00:23:25.958 --> 00:23:26.280 It's like, 413 00:23:27.946 --> 00:23:31.940 I think about this with liberal and progressive and climate policies all the time. 414 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:32.080 Like, 415 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:34.028 look at what the oil and gas industry has done. 416 00:23:34.671 --> 00:23:36.620 It's like, it's been known for decades now, 417 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:40.640 and they knew for decades longer that they were selling a, you know, destructive product that was 418 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:41.807 going to need to be phased out. 419 00:23:41.867 --> 00:23:44.120 And they've lasted this long, and they've captured the American 420 00:23:44.281 --> 00:23:49.080 political system by, I mean, one, by investing in politicians, but two, and just as importantly, 421 00:23:49.201 --> 00:23:52.173 if not more so, by capturing the imagination of the public. 422 00:23:52.474 --> 00:23:53.860 I mean, if you're in the business of 423 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.860 electrification, which the utility business is in, capture the imagination of the public. 424 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:02.800 Like, I don't know, I've never seen an ad for an electric utility on a streaming service, 425 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.904 as far as I can remember. 426 00:24:04.686 --> 00:24:08.880 Like, I mean, I think I've seen some, I live in Sacramento now, and I, 427 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:10.565 you know, which is a state capital. 428 00:24:10.666 --> 00:24:13.640 So I see ads for electric utilities at the airport when I, 429 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:16.620 you know, fly in and out of Sacramento, because they're trying to get the legislators, 430 00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:19.756 you know, why, why are they not trying to get members of the public? 431 00:24:19.776 --> 00:24:20.360 It's not like this is 432 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.445 an industry with no money. 433 00:24:21.465 --> 00:24:23.675 I don't think it's that complicated. 434 00:24:23.695 --> 00:24:24.720 I mean, you've got to get good 435 00:24:24.800 --> 00:24:26.146 creative minds behind this. 436 00:24:26.909 --> 00:24:29.440 You've got to be willing to invest some serious money with the 437 00:24:29.580 --> 00:24:32.391 understanding that it won't show up on quarterly earnings reports. 438 00:24:33.334 --> 00:24:34.318 But my God, I mean, Exxon and 439 00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:39.700 Chevron and Shell and BP and whoever are not thinking about the next quarter's earning when 440 00:24:39.700 --> 00:24:43.816 they're plugging billions of dollars every year into marketing and advertising. 441 00:24:44.699 --> 00:24:44.940 And they're 442 00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:45.422 succeeding. 443 00:24:45.884 --> 00:24:49.960 One story I wrote recently was the Lowe's is doing some really interesting stuff. 444 00:24:50.641 --> 00:24:54.640 I don't know if you know the Lowe's, but they, you know, they're a consortium of groups that, 445 00:24:54.860 --> 00:25:00.000 you know, they've got auto company funding and some state agencies promoting vehicle electrification. 446 00:25:00.841 --> 00:25:02.688 And they did a really fun thing. 447 00:25:02.989 --> 00:25:05.960 They did a sketch with them late night with Seth Meyers, 448 00:25:06.261 --> 00:25:11.940 where they got him and one of his writers to do this sketch on the program where, you know, 449 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:16.160 was basically an ad for an EV except you know it was written by a comedy writer so it was you know 450 00:25:16.180 --> 00:25:20.100 it was funny and unique and it went on for about five minutes on the program I think it might have 451 00:25:20.120 --> 00:25:25.479 aired in the after after midnight half hour there's Seth Meyers started 1235 you see I don't I don't 452 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:29.960 actually have um you know cables I don't remember but I watched it online which is how most people 453 00:25:30.040 --> 00:25:34.440 watch late night um you know and it was a you know it was a paid partnership that they have with um 454 00:25:34.741 --> 00:25:39.160 with Comcast and but you know Seth Meyers seemed excited about it his writer John Lutz seemed 455 00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:40.003 excited about it. 456 00:25:40.103 --> 00:25:44.820 I think that's the kind of, you know, approach that, you know, would be really 457 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.106 good at a mass scale. 458 00:25:46.126 --> 00:25:48.980 But it just, you know, it doesn't really seem like folks in the utility 459 00:25:49.141 --> 00:25:55.040 space and the renewable energy space are thinking like that at a, you know, at a really big picture 460 00:25:55.161 --> 00:25:57.332 level, at least so far as I've been able to discover. 461 00:25:57.352 --> 00:25:58.860 They seem a lot

more focused on, 462 00:25:59.401 --> 00:26:03.198 you know, how do I survive the next, you know, couple months of Trump disaster? 463 00:26:03.238 --> 00:26:03.580 And, you know, 464 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.600 maybe I can beg the administration to be nicer to me for a few minutes. 465 00:26:07.442 --> 00:26:13.880 yeah yeah and I mean to to their credit too like I will be a utility apologist for an audience of 466 00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:19.619 utility pros I think it is a lot to balance right they are are regulated in pretty funky ways they're 467 00:26:19.941 --> 00:26:24.480 different across the board and in terms of what that business model even looks like and I would 468 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:30.840 love to see a utility you know sponsor of a baseball team right I think the idea of getting 469 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:35.440 to that point though seems like something that will take some time will take quite some time 470 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:41.300 There's not a lot of cash hanging around the way that there is for, you know, a publicly traded oil and gas company. 471 00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:48.300 So, you know, obviously it would need to be shareholder shareholder funds, of course, like nobody's going to let them do this with, you know, with ratepayer money. 472 00:26:48.861 --> 00:26:49.845 Yeah, exactly. 473 00:26:49.905 --> 00:26:51.331 And your point is well taken. 474 00:26:51.472 --> 00:26:53.420 I'm being I'm being harsh because I care. 475 00:26:54.081 --> 00:26:54.965 No, I agree. 476 00:26:54.985 --> 00:26:55.709 And I appreciate it. 477 00:26:55.729 --> 00:26:58.160 I think it's it's a good it's a good conversation to be in. 478 00:26:58.961 --> 00:27:10.240 But, you know, I think this is one of those things where in the utility industry, it feels like every dollar that is spent is really interrogated in a way that it might not be in other sectors of our economy. 479 00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:16.500 You know, if you're an Apple shareholder, you expect that Apple is going to spend X number of dollars on R&D per year. 480 00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:18.920 And you don't really care to know too much about that, right? 481 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.177 But if you are a utility ratepayer, it's a totally different ballgame, right? 482 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:28.020 If you see a data center going up, you wonder what impact that's going to have on your bill. 483 00:27:28.381 --> 00:27:32.740 If you see, you know, your power mix changing, you wonder what kind of impact that's going to have on your bill. 484 00:27:32.820 --> 00:27:43.360 So I think there's certainly a difficulty in the storytelling there just because people seem to, you know, just be a little bit more invested in it because they are getting that bill at the end of every month or the beginning of every month. 485 00:27:44.081 --> 00:27:50.820 So, yeah, I mean, I guess I bring it up to say there is so much opportunity here to kind of rejigger what storytelling looks like. 486 00:27:51.141 --> 00:27:59.720 I think there's also a lot of opportunity, too, from some of the more innovator types of this industry, the more startup ecosystem side of the electric utility industry. 487 00:28:00.540 --> 00:28:13.720 You know, when we're talking about some of these really cool, innovative startups that are going to partner with utilities in the future with really cool and interesting tech, those kinds of companies that have, you know, VC backing and probably a little bit more cash on hand to spend. 488 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:21.700 And I think there's a really cool way that those kind of companies could determine what that future of renewable storytelling looks like. 489 00:28:22.020 --> 00:28:28.000 I can't remember it off the top of my head, but there was an ad for, I think, like a wind, offshore wind, I think in Europe somewhere. 490 00:28:28.462 --> 00:28:29.860 They did it with Samuel L. Jackson. 491 00:28:30.181 --> 00:28:30.539 Oh, yeah. 492 00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:31.756 He was talking about the kelp chips. 493 00:28:32.280 --> 00:28:32.955 Oh, that was so great. 494 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:33.300 Do you know what I'm talking about? 495 00:28:33.963 --> 00:28:35.540 Yeah, I wrote about this a little bit. 496 00:28:36.042 --> 00:28:38.940 And I, God, I wish I could remember what the company was. 497 00:28:39.040 --> 00:28:40.040 But yeah, that was fantastic. 498 00:28:40.780 --> 00:28:41.680 Motherfucking wind farms. 499 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:42.220 That's what he said. 500 00:28:42.281 --> 00:28:43.240 Am I allowed to curse on here? 501 00:28:43.280 --> 00:28:43.680 I'm sorry. 502 00:28:43.780 --> 00:28:44.122 Oh, yeah. 503 00:28:44.706 --> 00:28:47.040 If you're quoting Samuel L. Jackson, of course, of course. 504 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.241 Yeah. 505 00:28:48.763 --> 00:28:49.486 Oh, that was so good. 506 00:28:49.546 --> 00:28:49.807 It was. 507 00:28:49.827 --> 00:28:52.296 Yeah, I'm looking at Vottenfall. 508 00:28:52.336 --> 00:28:53.500 I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. 509 00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:54.002 But yeah. 510 00:28:54.082 --> 00:28:54.283 Yeah. 511 00:28:54.645 --> 00:28:57.480 We'll we'll put the link in the description for anybody who wants to check it out. 512 00:28:57.540 --> 00:29:06.980 But I think things like that, you know, these these culturally relevant kinds of conversation starter pieces of marketing really feels like where there is a lot of opportunity. 513 00:29:07.643 --> 00:29:12.160 and perhaps there is some element of responsibility 514 00:29:12.563 --> 00:29:15.340 or opportunity for those kinds of companies 515 00:29:15.421 --> 00:29:16.940 that do have a marketing budget 516 00:29:16.981 --> 00:29:18.420 that looks a little different 517 00:29:18.461 --> 00:29:19.680 than the marketing budget of, say, 518 00:29:20.102 --> 00:29:21.900 a regulated utility in the US. 519 00:29:22.622 --> 00:29:23.576 I mean, I'm just saying, 520 00:29:25.045 --> 00:29:27.660 if they're willing to spend

shareholder money, 521 00:29:27.800 --> 00:29:29.720 if there's some visionary CEO out there 522 00:29:29.841 --> 00:29:32.260 who can convince the shareholders it's a good idea, 523 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:34.659 like the regulators can't do anything about that. 524 00:29:35.580 --> 00:29:36.480 Yeah, yeah. 525 00:29:36.860 --> 00:29:38.121 I think it'd be really cool to see. 526 00:29:38.141 --> 00:29:38.842 I would love it. 527 00:29:38.962 --> 00:29:39.462 I would love it. 528 00:29:39.482 --> 00:29:49.689 And I'm sure too, for the utility pros who are listening to this, you know, if you have perspective on kind of what those conversations look like in a marketing department, in a boardroom, I personally am very curious to hear about it. 529 00:29:49.709 --> 00:29:54.913 You know, we have talked a lot on this show about the importance of storytelling for utilities and the challenge of storytelling. 530 00:29:55.393 --> 00:30:03.799 But for all that, I have to admit, I don't really know what it actually looks like when you're trying to kind of sit down and put pen to paper on what are we going to say? 531 00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:04.660 How are we going to say it? 532 00:30:05.222 --> 00:30:06.508 I'm not totally sure. 533 00:30:06.528 --> 00:30:07.312 I imagine it's complicated. 534 00:30:07.432 --> 00:30:09.020 You know what one of my favorite examples is? 535 00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:10.566 I'm just going to go way back here. 536 00:30:10.586 --> 00:30:11.550 So I'm a big Disney fan. 537 00:30:12.474 --> 00:30:13.519 I'm a big Disney Parks fan. 538 00:30:13.539 --> 00:30:13.760 I grew up 539 00:30:13.780 --> 00:30:14.482 with Disneyland. 540 00:30:15.585 --> 00:30:19.878 There was an attraction that premiered at the New York World's Fair in 1964 541 00:30:21.424 --> 00:30:23.977 called the Carousel of Progress that was then migrated. 542 00:30:23.997 --> 00:30:24.580 Have you heard of this? 543 00:30:25.280 --> 00:30:25.501 No. 544 00:30:25.903 --> 00:30:26.987 Migrated to Disney World. 545 00:30:27.047 --> 00:30:28.573 It's still there at the Magic Kingdom. 546 00:30:29.116 --> 00:30:30.180 It was originally sponsored 547 00:30:30.340 --> 00:30:31.524 by General Electric. 548 00:30:31.785 --> 00:30:36.680 It's basically just a giant ad for home electrification, you know, way ahead 549 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.322 of its time. 550 00:30:37.744 --> 00:30:42.460 And GE is no longer the sponsor, but it's this like carousel that you sit in that 551 00:30:42.560 --> 00:30:48.500 rotates that takes you like through time, through like the American home from like, I think sometime 552 00:30:48.641 --> 00:30:53.380 in the late 1800s, it's been a while since I've done it, through them into the future and shows 553 00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:59.060 you how like home life has been improved by the growing prevalence of like high-tech electric 554 00:30:59.160 --> 00:30:59.863 appliances. 555 00:31:00.425 --> 00:31:02.632 And it hasn't been updated in, you know,

forever. 556 00:31:02.652 --> 00:31:04.840 I, maybe they updated it 10 years 557 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.630 ago, but it wasn't with an electric sponsor. 558 00:31:06.650 --> 00:31:08.560 So the appliances aren't like up to date, but, 559 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.480 you know, it's this cool way to think about, okay, like if you did something like that today 560 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:18.120 and, you know, with, you know, with heat pumps and with, you know, with a cool induction stove and, 561 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:23.500 you know, it's an innovative style of storytelling partnering with Disney to show people like, hey, 562 00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:26.900 here's how your life could be made better by, you know, getting gas out of your home and putting 563 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:27.643 electric in. 564 00:31:27.723 --> 00:31:30.533 I mean, you know, I was always very impressed by that. 565 00:31:30.955 --> 00:31:32.400 And GE was thinking like that 566 00:31:32.841 --> 00:31:34.927 in the 1960s. 567 00:31:35.027 --> 00:31:39.820 And, you know, I doubt that was something that, you know, started showing up in 568 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.270 significant ways on their quarterly earnings reports. 569 00:31:42.350 --> 00:31:44.780 But man, GE has done pretty well for 570 00:31:44.840 --> 00:31:46.185 itself. 571 00:31:46.285 --> 00:31:47.028 I've certainly heard of it. 572 00:31:47.088 --> 00:31:48.152 Yeah. 573 00:31:48.172 --> 00:31:49.517 I think it's an interesting point, too. 574 00:31:49.577 --> 00:31:50.400 And I think, 575 00:31:51.042 --> 00:31:56.740 you know, the real takeaway that I'm having from this conversation in sort of the general sense 576 00:31:56.820 --> 00:32:00.800 about what storytelling can look like for renewables to accomplish that clean grid of 577 00:32:00.820 --> 00:32:01.200 the future. 578 00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:06.680 I think there is just so much white space in front of a lot of these utilities to get 579 00:32:06.761 --> 00:32:08.860 creative with what it looks like to tell your story. 580 00:32:09.860 --> 00:32:14.540 And there also is, I think, some interesting responsibility and sort of like the other 581 00:32:14.620 --> 00:32:20.140 side of this equation for policymakers, lawmakers, elected officials as well to kind of understand 582 00:32:20.282 --> 00:32:21.560 the story that they want to tell too. 583 00:32:22.402 --> 00:32:25.498 I want to use that as a bit of a segue to talk about the work that you have done in 584 00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:27.928 covering California specifically. 585 00:32:27.948 --> 00:32:31.300 I understand you have covered the governor's race in the state 586 00:32:31.481 --> 00:32:32.664 quite a lot. 587 00:32:32.905 --> 00:32:37.159 I think in a lot of ways, California kind of serves as for the energy industry. 588 00:32:37.179 --> 00:32:37.280 It's 589 00:32:37.541 --> 00:32:38.324 one of those big ones. 590 00:32:38.384 --> 00:32:41.980 It's a bit of a test tube for a lot of energy trends across the country. 591 00:32:42.540 --> 00:32:43.180 Very large tested. 592 00:32:43.780 --> 00:32:44.885 Yeah, very large. 593 00:32:44.945 --> 00:32:48.420 But Texas, California, Virginia, when we're talking about some of the big players 594 00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:52.720 here, from your experience covering what's happening in California, how policymakers are 595 00:32:52.760 --> 00:32:55.995 are talking about renewables and admittedly in a renewables friendly state. 596 00:32:56.297 --> 00:32:56.920 I would love to hear a 597 00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.900 little bit more about maybe some of the storytelling that has worked, some that has been interesting. 598 00:33:01.140 --> 00:33:02.671 You know, what would have been some of your learnings there? 599 00:33:02.692 --> 00:33:03.820 Well, I mean, I guess the first 600 00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:08.340 thing I would say is that affordability is still the name of the game in California, just like 601 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:09.023 anywhere else. 602 00:33:09.103 --> 00:33:13.160 I mean, you know, all of the all of the candidates, the leading candidates for 603 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.740 governor in California want to, you know, want people to believe they're the ones who are going 604 00:33:16.760 --> 00:33:19.450 to make electricity and gas cheaper. 605 00:33:20.152 --> 00:33:21.216 Electricity in particular. 606 00:33:21.236 --> 00:33:22.320 I mean, gas has been expensive in 607 00:33:22.360 --> 00:33:24.088 California forever, so that's not new. 608 00:33:24.108 --> 00:33:26.800 But yeah, electric rates are a big thing here. 609 00:33:27.601 --> 00:33:31.014 The candidates are differentiating themselves in interesting ways. 610 00:33:31.034 --> 00:33:32.460 I mean, Tom Steyer has kind of 611 00:33:33.242 --> 00:33:39.160 really leaned into the climate lane and the sort of harder core utility regulation lane, 612 00:33:39.922 --> 00:33:41.327 which is not super surprising. 613 00:33:41.347 --> 00:33:43.355 I mean, climate has been his thing forever. 614 00:33:43.375 --> 00:33:44.620 He's the billionaire 615 00:33:44.821 --> 00:33:50.880 former hedge fund manager who's been basically sort of a public climate advocate slash activist 616 00:33:51.162 --> 00:33:53.880 using his vast wealth for the last 15 years or so. 617 00:33:54.322 --> 00:33:57.060 So he's been talking about, you know, 618 00:33:57.781 --> 00:34:00.120 he keeps using the phrase bust up the utilities, 619 00:34:00.340 --> 00:34:03.980 by which he seems to mean force them to allow a lot more, 620 00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:05.840 support a lot more rooftop solar 621 00:34:05.961 --> 00:34:07.840 and distributed energy resources on the grid, 622 00:34:08.781 --> 00:34:11.960 probably rehaul or revamp the Public Utilities Commission, 623 00:34:12.140 --> 00:34:12.680 its membership. 624 00:34:14.302 --> 00:34:18.678 He claims to want to reduce electric rates or bills by 25%. 625 00:34:20.384 --> 00:34:24.520 It's a nice number to

be seen if that's something that he could actually accomplish or not. 626 00:34:25.720 --> 00:34:28.099 But he's been going pretty hardcore at that. 627 00:34:29.060 --> 00:34:34.980 Javier Becerra, one of the other looting Democrats, I think he would probably be fairly similar 628 00:34:35.161 --> 00:34:38.420 to Gavin Newsom in how he approaches energy and utilities. 629 00:34:39.861 --> 00:34:44.099 He was the attorney general of the state of California for a while, including during Trump's 630 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:50.240 first term, and he's touted all the lawsuits he filed defending California's climate policies 631 00:34:52.166 --> 00:34:52.929 the first time around. 632 00:34:52.969 --> 00:34:56.440 So I think he would definitely defend a lot of the climate and 633 00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:58.846 clean energy progress California has made thus far. 634 00:35:00.851 --> 00:35:04.480 Unclear to me if he would do anything that 635 00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:08.336 much differently than Newsom has done, for better or for worse. 636 00:35:08.376 --> 00:35:09.440 If you like Newsom's approach, 637 00:35:09.521 --> 00:35:11.940 I think that you would probably like Becerra's approach. 638 00:35:12.540 --> 00:35:18.240 I asked him about rooftop solar, for instance, during a gubernatorial forum a few months 639 00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:24.760 ago, and his answer was basically, well, it's important, but we should be careful not to 640 00:35:24.860 --> 00:35:27.140 subsidize it so much that it drives people's rates up. 641 00:35:27.461 --> 00:35:32.300 So he seems to be more of the opinion that it's really a cost driver, which people have 642 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:33.160 different feelings about. 643 00:35:33.741 --> 00:35:37.580 There's a debate right now about whether it's a good thing or not or acceptable or not to 644 00:35:37.640 --> 00:35:39.300 take oil industry money. 645 00:35:39.460 --> 00:35:43.840 He's the only leading Democrat who's taken oil industry money at this point. 646 00:35:44.623 --> 00:35:46.300 He took a big Chevron donation recently. 647 00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:54.800 And so is Antonio Villaraigosa, the former mayor of Los Angeles, has also been taking oil money, but he's very low in the polls and doesn't seem to have a chance right now. 648 00:35:55.580 --> 00:35:57.220 Katie Porter is also very interesting. 649 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:04.400 She's been, I think, a bit behind Steyer and Becerra in the polls, but is right there within the margin of error. 650 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:13.269 I think she would be, she's taken somewhat similar stances to Steyer, but with a little more moderation or nuance. 651 00:36:13.349 --> 00:36:24.460 She also talked during that forum I moderated about losing faith in the Public Utilities Commission and wanting to, I think she alluded to wanting to replace some of its members, which was interesting. 652 00:36:24.761 --> 00:36:33.560 She's talked about wanting to invest in more renewable energy development and speed up large-scale solar and wind. 653 00:36:34.220 --> 00:36:37.980 She also seems more favorable towards rooftop solar than Becerra. 654 00:36:38.861 --> 00:36:46.520 She has concern over gas prices and I think was a little bit more concerned about how the cap-and-invest program, 655 00:36:46.740 --> 00:36:49.820 formerly cap-and-trade, is affecting gas prices in California. 656 00:36:50.180 --> 00:36:53.340 So I think that's the best I can do in terms of a summary right now. 657 00:36:53.641 --> 00:37:04.640 The thing is that there's definitely going to be one Republican who emerges from the pack, which is going to be Steve Hilton, who President Trump endorsed, who doesn't care about any of this stuff and doesn't think that climate change is a problem. 658 00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:14.060 And it's kind of a question right now of which of the Democrats, if any, can make second place in the primary in June 2nd and make it to the runoff with Steve Hilton. 659 00:37:14.080 --> 00:37:17.660 And there is still a chance that a second Republican, Chad Bianco, could best all of 660 00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:24.440 the Democrats and end up with two Republicans making the runoff, which would lead to a very 661 00:37:24.521 --> 00:37:27.180 different direction for energy policy in California. 662 00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:30.380 You know, it certainly seems like a very, very interesting race. 663 00:37:30.641 --> 00:37:35.119 And that final outcome that you suggested could potentially be a possibility would be 664 00:37:36.070 --> 00:37:36.860 a total wildcard. 665 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.200 You know, when we're talking about California, I think there are certain assumptions made 666 00:37:40.584 --> 00:37:41.900 for the energy industry. 667 00:37:42.201 --> 00:37:47.340 what California is like, what energy policy is like there, what renewables policy is like there. 668 00:37:48.002 --> 00:37:51.220 And it could be interesting to see some of that potentially get flipped, right? 669 00:37:51.560 --> 00:37:52.263 No, definitely. 670 00:37:52.303 --> 00:37:56.680 If a Republican won, I mean, it would be seismic for a lot of reasons, 671 00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.065 including energy and climate. 672 00:37:58.587 --> 00:38:02.340 You know, assuming a Democrat gets through, who would then no doubt 673 00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:03.584 win in November. 674 00:38:04.146 --> 00:38:08.660 For utilities, I think Steyer and Porter would both represent a pretty sharp 675 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:14.479 break with the status quo, you know, as relatively speaking, as things go in California, they both 676 00:38:15.362 --> 00:38:19.700 Newsom has had a pretty cozy relationship, I would say, with the utility industry and with, 677 00:38:20.201 --> 00:38:24.660 you know, organized labor, you know, IBEW, you know, from the utility side of things. 678 00:38:25.641 --> 00:38:29.440 Again, for better or worse, and Steyer and Porter seem like they might have, 679

00:38:30.282 --> 00:38:35.480 if not a more adversarial stance, then certainly be more willing to buck the utility industry on 680 00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:36.644 their priorities. 681 00:38:36.664 --> 00:38:38.068 So that's something to look for. 682 00:38:38.088 --> 00:38:41.680 I think Becerra would take some more chances to 683 00:38:41.720 --> 00:38:42.624 do some more likely. 684 00:38:42.644 --> 00:38:43.569 I mean, you never know. 685 00:38:43.589 --> 00:38:45.940 It's like people sometimes govern differently than 686 00:38:46.342 --> 00:38:46.924 they campaign. 687 00:38:46.944 --> 00:38:48.391 But that's my read thus far. 688 00:38:48.411 --> 00:38:50.520 And I'm planning to write more about the race next 689 00:38:50.620 --> 00:38:51.122 week. 690 00:38:51.222 --> 00:38:53.892 So we'll see by the time this airs if that's come out yet. 691 00:38:54.595 --> 00:38:56.020 Yeah, I'm eager to read it. 692 00:38:56.100 --> 00:38:59.415 Well, we'll definitely include it in the description of the episode as well. 693 00:38:59.435 --> 00:38:59.576 Sammy, 694 00:39:00.620 --> 00:39:01.927 we have covered so much today. 695 00:39:02.389 --> 00:39:04.500 All of this has been really, really insightful and interesting. 696 00:39:04.680 --> 00:39:13.540 And I think certainly serves as some inspiration, I'm sure, for a lot of our utility listeners as to what the kind of next phase of storytelling and marketing and communications can look like for them. 697 00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:18.340 So now it is time to get into our lightning round really quickly to close things out. 698 00:39:18.640 --> 00:39:21.720 So we are going to have a quick rapid fire, three questions. 699 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:27.240 If you could keep your answers to a sentence or so, a couple words, that would be awesome. 700 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:31.059 So my first question for you here, do you have a recommendation for a read? 701 00:39:31.381 --> 00:39:34.120 Could be short form, could be long form, could be newsletter, could be anything. 702 00:39:34.520 --> 00:39:38.520 for people who might want to dig into some of these cultural aspects of energy and climate 703 00:39:38.601 --> 00:39:39.788 that we have talked about today. 704 00:39:40.131 --> 00:39:41.520 You mean besides my own newsletter? 705 00:39:42.221 --> 00:39:44.976 Of course, we will include that in the description as well. 706 00:39:45.096 --> 00:39:45.820 What else are you reading? 707 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:47.385 That's a great question. 708 00:39:47.786 --> 00:39:49.916 I've read a bunch of good books recently. 709 00:39:49.976 --> 00:39:50.940 Which one should I recommend? 710 00:39:53.241 --> 00:39:58.620 The Guardian just started a newsletter on climate change and sports called The Hotspot, 711 00:39:59.022 --> 00:40:00.346 which I'm enjoying so far. 712 00:40:00.447 --> 00:40:03.599 So if you're looking for a new newsletter, I would say that one. 713 00:40:04.661 --> 00:40:06.126 We love a hyper-specific niche. 714 00:40:06.306 --> 00:40:06.808 It's the best. 715 00:40:07.430 --> 00:40:07.812 Okay. 716 00:40:07.992 --> 00:40:08.875 Next question for you. 717 00:40:09.578 --> 00:40:10.140 What gives you 718 00:40:10.461 --> 00:40:13.996 optimism when you're thinking about the energy and climate debate these days? 719 00:40:14.037 --> 00:40:14.499 What's a reason 720 00:40:14.941 --> 00:40:19.820 to kind of feel inspired or optimistic or have those rose-colored climate-colored goggles? 721 00:40:20.580 --> 00:40:24.600 The obvious one is something that everyone on this podcast already listening to this already 722 00:40:24.720 --> 00:40:28.272 knows, which is just seeing how many batteries are getting deployed. 723 00:40:29.637 --> 00:40:30.480 I mean, man, every time I 724 00:40:30.540 --> 00:40:33.251 see the new numbers just for California and for like Texas. 725 00:40:33.271 --> 00:40:34.114 It's like, oh my God. 726 00:40:34.576 --> 00:40:35.700 So that's awesome. 727 00:40:36.700 --> 00:40:36.861 Yeah. 728 00:40:37.122 --> 00:40:37.303 Yeah. 729 00:40:37.444 --> 00:40:37.785 It's cool. 730 00:40:37.825 --> 00:40:38.509 It's really cool stuff. 731 00:40:38.911 --> 00:40:39.132 All right. 732 00:40:39.192 --> 00:40:40.076 My final question for you. 733 00:40:40.358 --> 00:40:40.800 Do you have 734 00:40:41.221 --> 00:40:46.100 three words that would sum up your career covering energy and climate so far? 735 00:40:46.700 --> 00:40:47.442 Interesting question. 736 00:40:48.285 --> 00:40:48.526 Fun. 737 00:40:48.546 --> 00:40:50.110 I'm definitely having fun. 738 00:40:51.154 --> 00:40:51.515 Rapid. 739 00:40:51.776 --> 00:40:53.200 Things just move fast all the time. 740 00:40:55.683 --> 00:40:56.289 And productive. 741 00:40:56.370 --> 00:40:57.320 I feel like I've gotten a lot done. 742 00:40:58.226 --> 00:40:58.528 All right. 743 00:40:58.810 --> 00:40:59.172 I agree. 744 00:40:59.192 --> 00:41:00.320 I think you have gotten a lot done. 745 00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:00.862 All right. 746 00:41:00.902 --> 00:41:02.449 Well, Sammy, thank you so much. 747 00:41:02.489 --> 00:41:04.740 What a great way to kind of wrap a bow around this one. 748 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.778 We started with talking about your very interesting career so far and finished the same way. 749 00:41:08.798 --> 00:41:08.818 I 750 00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:13.040 appreciate you coming to Power Perspectives and sharing all of your wonderful insights with our 751 00:41:13.080 --> 00:41:13.382 audience. 752 00:41:13.422 --> 00:41:14.811 It's been such a treat to hear from you. 753 00:41:15.153 --> 00:41:16.220 And I really appreciate your time. 754 00:41:17.161 --> 00:41:18.050 Thanks, Kinsey. 755 00:41:18.171 --> 00:41:19.040 Good to be here. 756 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:20.283 All right. 757 00:41:20.303 --> 00:41:23.160 And thank you to all of our listeners for once again, tuning into 758 00:41:23.622 --> 00:41:25.049 another episode of Power Perspectives. 759 00:41:25.370 --> 00:41:27.500 I'm Kinsey Grant-Baker, and I will see you next time. 760 00:41:28.603 --> 00:41:29.895 What are you doing on June 23rd? 761 00:41:30.862 --> 00:41:35.020 If you're a utility professional who wants to, one, meet and network with other big thinkers, 762 00:41:35.321 --> 00:41:40.440 and two, get leadership perspectives on the future of energy business strategy from affordability to 763 00:41:40.540 --> 00:41:42.607 AI, there's only one place to be. 764 00:41:43.149 --> 00:41:46.320 Energy Central is hosting a happy hour in Washington, D.C. 765 00:41:46.660 --> 00:41:48.607 on the evening of June 23rd. 766 00:41:49.189 --> 00:41:50.092 You might ask why. 767 00:41:50.112 --> 00:41:52.520 And it's because we think the very future of our 768 00:41:52.580 --> 00:41:57.657 energy industry depends a whole lot on how things shake out in data center alley. 769 00:41:58.079 --> 00:41:58.500 And we think it's 770 00:41:58.520 --> 00:42:03.300 high time that the smartest people solving the biggest utility challenges got together to share 771 00:42:03.380 --> 00:42:04.143 some good ideas. 772 00:42:04.584 --> 00:42:09.500 So join us on June 23rd in DC for connections, conversations, and cocktails 773 00:42:10.062 --> 00:42:12.791 in partnership with our friends at IFS Copperleaf. 774 00:42:13.092 --> 00:42:15.680 Save your spot by RSVPing at the link in the show 775 00:42:15.741 --> 00:42:17.160 notes, and we'll see you there.