Does HOW we talk about our rural men, matter? Part 2 with Louise O'Neill의 전체 녹취록

you want to call it. 00:05:04.548 --> 00:05:12.283 It's a lot easier sometimes to stay in that cultural work that we are rather than try and push for change, and we know change can be hard as well. 00:05:12.283 --> 00:05:18.923 And then I think you add into the very obvious fact that there just aren't the services there. 00:05:18.923 --> 00:05:33.841 There are so few and far between people like myself trying to do such a big job and we approach it with a top down approach, which is what research tells us and what should happen and what's worked in Metropole. 00:05:33.841 --> 00:05:34.803 It's not going to work. 00:05:35.264 --> 00:05:36.648 Is it a generational thing? 00:05:36.648 --> 00:05:44.011 My kids have Mindfulness Mondays and there's Wellness Week that they celebrate. 00:05:44.011 --> 00:05:48.988 These things weren't around when I was a kid, I know and how amazing is it that's there now. 00:05:49.108 --> 00:05:52.346 I think it's great, and I think it's great there's choice as well. 00:05:52.346 --> 00:05:57.444 But I guess we don't want to go the other way, where it's all we focus on all the time and just push it and push it. 00:05:57.444 --> 00:06:05.492 But I do think you're right, I think it is a generational thing and I think it comes back to those core beliefs and that culture that we're in. 00:06:05.492 --> 00:06:14.824 I look at my husband and when I first met my husband and he's very open about talking about this it was very work, work, work. 00:06:14.824 --> 00:06:19.461 His dad did the same thing, his friends do the same thing and that's all they know. 00:06:19.461 --> 00:06:21.107 So why should it be any different? 00:06:21.107 --> 00:06:35.144 And it was only where we reached a very big tipping point and probably I came along and threw my opinions into the mix and said this is not how we are going to live and this is not how we're going to raise kids. 00:06:35.144 --> 00:06:36.988 Is that things started to change? 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:41.709 And now he is one of the most like, positive people when it comes to health and wellness. 00:06:41.709 --> 00:06:43.596 The stuff he does is incredible. 00:06:43.596 --> 00:06:44.579 He, he does grounding, he does muscle incredible. 00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:45.079 He does grounding. 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:46.963 He does muscle relaxation. 00:06:46.963 --> 00:06:49.591 He moves for his mental health, he tries to eat well. 00:06:49.591 --> 00:07:01.564 So he is a changed man, as corny as that sounds, but I think it is still that resistance and it is a generational thing because it's learned behaviour as well. 00:07:01.564 --> 00:07:03.668 And if we didn't have those role models, then they're just going to roll them off what they had. 00:07:03.668 --> 00:07:07.934 And if we didn't have those role models, then they're just going to roll them off what they had. 00:07:07.934 --> 00:07:09.956 And there's great attributes to it as well. 00:07:09.956 --> 00:07:17.471 We meet those times where you

have to go pedal to the metal and you have to have that certain resilience to be able to keep going. 00:07:17.471 --> 00:07:30.887 But I think the problem was there was no talk about that other, softer side for our men to learn from and for it to be okay to show that vulnerability and emotion as well. 00:07:32.350 --> 00:07:35.442 That's great that your husband is at that point. 00:07:35.442 --> 00:07:36.826 Is he inspiring other men? 00:07:37.007 --> 00:07:45.033 Look, I think he does, especially down here where the conversation is a bit more open with men and women about mental health and looking after yourself. 00:07:45.033 --> 00:07:51.728 He's had some great conversations with our friends down here, but he's very quiet about it. 00:07:51.728 --> 00:08:12.112 I'm the storyteller, so I go out and tell our story and champion and cheerlead for him and I would hope that through me perhaps not talking just all about my experience but about his experience that maybe that can be a catalyst to get the conversation going. 00:08:12.459 --> 00:08:14.423 And I think culture change is possible. 00:08:14.423 --> 00:08:17.672 I've witnessed it with alcohol consumption. 00:08:17.672 --> 00:08:27.562 If a guy says, no, not today, or I'm not drinking this week, or I'm actually not drinking as much anymore, I'm just going to have an alcohol-free beer. 00:08:27.562 --> 00:08:32.321 I just witness now people going oh yeah, no, worries, that's great, good on you. 00:08:32.321 --> 00:08:34.886 Rather than the go on, just have one. 00:08:34.886 --> 00:08:40.542 I'm sure that still happens, but there is a culture change that's happened. 00:08:41.682 --> 00:08:48.971 Absolutely, and I think it's because we've got so many great advocates out there talking about it and making it okay to make that choice. 00:08:48.971 --> 00:08:59.374 And again, but I'm harping on about him but Wozza decided to quit drinking nearly six years ago now and he just stopped. 00:08:59.374 --> 00:09:04.211 And it was when we were in our old town and look at the. 00:09:04.211 --> 00:09:07.581 There was that bit of oh did you forget your skirt today? 00:09:07.581 --> 00:09:14.543 Kind of thing going on when he would say no, and it was amongst his friends and it was said in jest. 00:09:14.543 --> 00:09:16.528 It was never a malicious thing. 00:09:16.528 --> 00:09:32.013 But there was also and I said to him, it's because you are challenging them to think and you're just rocking their boat a little bit but that that went and they totally respected him and they never really said anything again to them, particularly again down here. 00:09:32.052 --> 00:09:43.586 There's a lot more men that are choosing not to drink and stats and research will tell us that by younger generations coming through, particularly males are choosing not to drink and focusing more on their well-being and being healthy. 00:09:43.586 --> 00:10:01.861 So, yeah, you can change a culture, so long as it's a continued tool and something that we don't focus on the negative so much, but we focus on why it's flourishing, why it's another way to do something, as opposed to oh, this is bad, we can't do it. 00:10:01.861 --> 00:10:07.113 Let's focus on what's good about perhaps choosing not to drink, if that makes sense. 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:10.328 Yeah, exactly focusing on the positives. 00:10:10.328 --> 00:10:14.650 Is there anything about how we talk about rural men? 00:10:14.650 --> 00:10:20.811 And I'll put my hand up and say I'm probably guilty of not saying the best things all the time. 00:10:22.244 --> 00:10:34.471 And so am I 100%, and I don't think there's any person, whether you're male or female, that doesn't say something either controversial, the wrong way. 00:10:34.471 --> 00:10:49.671 If we're angry or frustrated and that's where it comes from a lot, because you're absolutely right like we love our men and our men love us, and it's just when sometimes the ones closest to us is the people we take our hurt and our anger out the most at. 00:10:49.671 --> 00:10:54.706 And I think it's because I often say that those closest to us are our sounding boards. 00:10:54.706 --> 00:11:03.923 They're the ones we trust that we can sometimes say the wrong thing or sometimes be angry at them, and they have our backs and they know it's not really us. 00:11:03.923 --> 00:11:05.543 And they have our backs and they know it's not really us. 00:11:05.563 --> 00:11:38.144 But I do think there's this little bit of I don't know whether it's resentment I'm still trying to figure out what it is and I mean that in the most disrespectful way towards men in Acts sometimes, because generally, although there are female farmers out there, generally they're the ones that are out late, they're the ones and they are working, but they may also have a few more beers after they've finished and not come straight home to help with the childcare, or might not come home to cook dinner or do the washing and it's left to females predominantly. 00:11:38.144 --> 00:11:44.937 And I fully understand that resentment because I can feel like that sometimes. 00:11:44.937 --> 00:11:48.384 Especially women are also trying to work as well. 00:11:48.384 --> 00:11:50.126 That's another layer. 00:11:50.126 --> 00:11:52.172 That's another layer of mental load. 00:11:52.472 --> 00:11:56.355 And I have said to my husband you know when you cause he goes away shearing. 00:11:56.355 --> 00:11:58.964 He's away at the moment and that's not a problem. 00:11:58.964 --> 00:12:00.326 I know he's working hard. 00:12:00.326 --> 00:12:14.865 But I say to him you know, when you go away, do you think about what the boys have got at school, or that they have swimming in a couple of weeks time, or that I need to go and do the monthly shop, or something like that? 00:12:14.865 --> 00:12:15.167 Now? 00:12:16.511 --> 00:12:19.861 you've just reminded me now that I need to book in parent teacher interviews. 00:12:19.861 --> 00:12:23.006 So

it's constant, isn't? 00:12:23.086 --> 00:12:23.167 it. 00:12:23.167 --> 00:12:28.336 But our brains are like all the time and there's research behind it. 00:12:28.336 --> 00:12:42.626 There's research that says that as women, we have more of a connection between both hemispheres of our brain than men, and men only connect and integrate with heavier on their left side, which is more that logic and reasoning, um? 00:12:42.626 --> 00:12:43.047 And? 00:12:43.047 --> 00:12:49.673 And they're able to compartmentalise more because of that connection, or or lack of connection, between both sides. 00:12:49.673 --> 00:13:12.460 But we use both sides constantly and so we are constantly thinking of constantly taking my mental load and so we take it out on those men and sometimes I take my frustration out of him because I am slightly jealous that he could do it, that he could walk out that door and he can focus on work and not leave the kids behind. 00:13:12.460 --> 00:13:23.072 Because he loves our boys, he'll do anything for them, but he doesn't think about them, and so I think we can get frustrated and we can say the wrong thing. 00:13:23.642 --> 00:13:30.490 And because, as women as well, we, our core beliefs are about connection and emotion and intimacy. 00:13:30.490 --> 00:13:47.009 We'll go to our friends and we might have, we might bag them out a little bit, and we and before you know it, there's a bit of this and I think it's very respectfully, but a bit of a toxic conversation that then starts to happen and you're in the safety of your friends and that's absolutely fine. 00:13:47.009 --> 00:13:48.572 You've got to have that safe space. 00:13:48.572 --> 00:14:11.740 But it can be hard to pull it back sometimes and, yeah, I do think there's a little bit of unfair perception towards the men sometimes and I say that very respectfully and I know that people might not appreciate me saying that, but it's also what I, yeah, and what I talk about and who I talk with as well. 00:14:12.241 --> 00:14:14.147 Look, you're brave saying that it's. 00:14:14.147 --> 00:14:15.871 And it's because it's complex, isn't it? 00:14:15.871 --> 00:14:30.229 Because there are assholes out there, as in there are men who are violent and you need to be able to speak to your friends who can, if you're in a situation where you're not safe, can help you get out of that and all of those things. 00:14:30.229 --> 00:14:38.412 And I suppose that's different when you know you're in a loving relationship and that love goes both ways and you do get frustrated. 00:14:38.412 --> 00:14:43.729 I suppose we need to make that line clear, but maybe that line sometimes isn't clear as well. 00:14:43.729 --> 00:14:45.226 Like it's so complex. 00:14:45.226 --> 00:14:53.221 If we're just having those conversations with our friends, is that doing any damage to our husband if they don't know about it? 00:14:53.221 --> 00:14:54.607 We're just letting off steam. 00:14:54.607 --> 00:14:55.751 We women, we

chat. 00:14:55.751 --> 00:15:01.475 We're just like, oh god, he's never coming, always late home and I always have to put the kids bed and he's. 00:15:01.475 --> 00:15:02.760 That's just us chatting, isn't it? 00:15:03.623 --> 00:15:07.032 yeah, it is, and I you hit on a really good point. 00:15:07.032 --> 00:15:08.062 I do want to make that clear. 00:15:08.062 --> 00:15:12.183 There are some absolute assholes out there and there are some not very nice women out there as well. 00:15:12.183 --> 00:15:24.384 Absolutely domestic violence message goes both ways and if we've been hurt but mainly more men, mainly- yes, I'm just gonna call it, it's mainly men against women and you can't deny, especially what's going on at the moment. 00:15:24.405 --> 00:15:25.467 There's a massive push for it. 00:15:25.467 --> 00:15:28.601 I think it's massively needed, particularly in our rural communities. 00:15:28.601 --> 00:15:37.879 It's one of those things they still get buried under the carpet, but we know it's there and if you've had that happen, you take that on and you can take it into your next relationship. 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.164 And it takes time to trust that person. 00:15:41.164 --> 00:15:43.628 So I want to make that very clear. 00:15:43.628 --> 00:15:58.331 There are differences, but what we're talking about is when we are in that loving relationship and, yes, when we're in our social circles, it's to tell our stories and it's to learn and it's to make us know that we are not the only ones going through it. 00:15:58.331 --> 00:16:13.721 I think the difference is it is if we can say that and let it go and think, oh god, it feels so much better for saying that, that's fantastic and you acknowledge that you've left it there, that's totally fine. 00:16:14.163 --> 00:16:22.364 But it's when it can sometimes pet us up and then we go home with that anger in us and also sometimes other people's envy. 00:16:22.364 --> 00:16:31.647 We take on other people's energy and if we haven't let go of that, and then we bring it home and we're still carrying it and I have done it and I am really bad at this. 00:16:31.647 --> 00:16:34.048 My husband is a lot better at letting things go. 00:16:34.048 --> 00:16:39.125 But I will hang on to something and it's my problem, it is not his. 00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:45.852 And I always say to people that no one has the right to make us feel or behave or act a certain way. 00:16:45.852 --> 00:16:52.048 How we choose to pay, it is down to us, and I am I can be very bad at that. 00:16:52.048 --> 00:16:59.889 And if we don't let that go, we bring it in, it can build in us and then that lack of communication starts to happen. 00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:12.269 So I think If there's good communication in the relationship but you also have that outlet of friends, that's fantastic, that's healthy. 00:17:12.269 --> 00:17:29.897 It's sometimes when the communication starts to break down and again, it's not an easy fix when that communication breaks down and we go to our friends for all the support and everything like that and we don't either let go or we don't try and talk it through with those we love. 00:17:29.897 --> 00:17:41.219 That's when those barriers can come up, that's when the hurt can carry on and that's when things get a little bit unhealthy I think you've really hit the nail on the head in terms of making it make sense. 00:17:42.321 --> 00:17:45.476 I don't want to make generalizations about gender, but I'm going to. 00:17:45.476 --> 00:17:50.106 Um, it seems like we women we often do hold on to things a bit more. 00:17:50.106 --> 00:17:51.657 Men, they just like. 00:17:51.657 --> 00:17:54.953 Men are simple, they just forget it, they move on. 00:17:54.953 --> 00:18:05.023 I think sometimes it's the stories we tell ourselves and it replays in our head and you think about it and then the next time something happens it reminds you of it. 00:18:05.023 --> 00:18:13.185 What are some tips, maybe to break that cycle or to kind of think okay, is this something I need to talk about my partner with? 00:18:13.994 --> 00:18:24.026 If we are caught in this cycle of hurt and frustration, like you said, it can get ingrained and the stories can keep going. 00:18:24.026 --> 00:18:28.606 How can we be aware and how can we turn ourselves back to the present? 00:18:28.606 --> 00:18:42.825 And how can we be aware of this isn't a helpful conversation in my head and that goes back to things like how much time do we give ourselves, how much time do we allow ourselves to stop and breathe? 00:18:42.825 --> 00:18:59.406 And if we allow ourselves just a little bit of time out each day, one or two minutes, just to stop and be present, that can go a long way to how we perceive our thoughts and the stories we tell ahead, because we're giving ourselves time just to breathe. 00:18:59.406 --> 00:19:15.127 And I think, particularly as women, when we wear so many hats, we are in that constant state of fight or flight, constantly thinking, always thinking one step ahead or chasing our tail, and so that cortisol is really high. 00:19:15.127 --> 00:19:25.523 And we know that if we don't get that cortisol down and if we don't stop that fight or flight, that can cause more anxiety and that can cause those thoughts to keep going. 00:19:26.105 --> 00:19:30.905 And it's about I talk a lot about transitioning can you transition between each task? 00:19:30.905 --> 00:19:33.575 And I'm only talking about 30 seconds to a minute. 00:19:33.575 --> 00:19:47.067 So if, say, you just drop the kids off and you're going straight to work, can you in the car just take 30 seconds or a minute to just breathe and just slow it down? 00:19:47.067 --> 00:19:57.126 We're going to try to lower that cortisol, we're going to try to give us that homeostasis that we know we need, and so there's like physiological responses that can actually help us. 00:19:57.974 --> 00:20:13.961 And then I think it's also about being okay with giving us

some time to ourselves, because when we're not okay with it, that's when we hold resentment and it's not easy to be angry at at someone else than it is to go. 00:20:13.961 --> 00:20:14.603 What's really going on here? 00:20:14.603 --> 00:20:18.596 And then I guess just be brave and having the talk with your partner or whoever it is is causing you frustration. 00:20:18.596 --> 00:20:31.707 That's the partner and saying let's use positive conversation as well, if you can put it in a bit of context sometimes, and going this makes me a bit upset when this happened. 00:20:31.707 --> 00:20:33.993 So you're taking a bit of ownership as well. 00:20:33.993 --> 00:20:37.827 It gives a little bit of leeway, yeah it's the I feel statements. 00:20:37.888 --> 00:21:02.286 You know I feel when that happens or when you're not home in time, I feel left with the burden, or whatever it is and one that I like to remind myself and I'm certainly not perfect, but I like to remind myself that there's two sides to every story, and that resonates with me, I think, as a journo of old and of heart. 00:21:02.286 --> 00:21:08.146 So the stories that we tell ourselves okay, he's out working late again on the farm. 00:21:08.146 --> 00:21:11.846 I could say, oh, that's because he doesn't want to help me out with the kids. 00:21:11.846 --> 00:21:12.980 That's one story. 00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:19.969 Or is it because he's got a lot of work to do and he wants to be the best provider for our family? 00:21:19.969 --> 00:21:22.321 There's two versions of that. 00:21:22.321 --> 00:21:30.575 Maybe both are a bit true, I don't know that. 00:21:30.575 --> 00:21:31.917 Maybe both are a bit true, I don't know. 00:21:31.917 --> 00:21:34.782 But and it's a tough one, isn't it because you, you don't want people to get away with being a bit? 00:21:34.803 --> 00:21:35.904 shit right, you can't allow that. 00:21:36.486 --> 00:22:03.040 But also you need to be fair and understand that we're all human as well yeah, I just wrote down something that when you were, when we were talking about them being out, I think also, I don't think it hurts for the man to realize what women do, and I am not a fan of oh, I'm a farmer's wife, I'm just a farmer's wife. 00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:19.422 You are not just a farmer's wife, you are an integral part of that business and I think sometimes men can forget that because they are the ones going out, they're the ones with the boots on the ground, right, they're the ones doing the hard labor. 00:22:19.422 --> 00:22:29.815 But I always say to women and it can be a bit of an identity thing, and again it comes back to their self-worth it can be a bit of an identity thing and again it comes back to their self-worth. 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:31.859 So what would happen then if you weren't there to sort out the kids? 00:22:32.140 --> 00:22:35.228 Or you weren't there when the kids were off sick for the day? 00:22:35.228 --> 00:22:38.365 What would happen if you didn't run the

books? 00:22:38.365 --> 00:22:42.866 What would happen if you didn't drive those meals out to those people? 00:22:42.866 --> 00:22:45.102 The business would fall apart. 00:22:45.102 --> 00:22:55.709 So they're an integral part of the business and I think that's such an important conversation to have with your partner about going. 00:22:55.709 --> 00:22:58.063 You know what I need to feel some worth here. 00:22:58.063 --> 00:23:00.681 I need to tell them. 00:23:00.681 --> 00:23:07.840 I just need to be thanked, and that's not a glory thing, it's just recognition't it? 00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:09.637 It's just validation for what we do. 00:23:09.698 --> 00:23:18.326 A validation work both ways you can't thank each other enough, like as in, because things just become, oh, that's what you do. 00:23:18.326 --> 00:23:21.258 My husband mowed the lawn the other day and I said, oh, thanks for doing that. 00:23:21.258 --> 00:23:27.123 It just makes the house look like, makes me feel happy when I drive in, and he wouldn't need to be thanked. 00:23:27.123 --> 00:23:31.003 He, he's not as like I do, I love to be thanked and acknowledged. 00:23:31.003 --> 00:23:37.425 He doesn't seem to have that character fault that I do, but I still think it. 00:23:37.425 --> 00:23:38.849 I still think he likes it. 00:23:38.849 --> 00:23:48.348 Louise, you, you mentioned about how you know we need a whole of community approach essentially to tackling family violence. 00:23:48.348 --> 00:24:01.117 But you hear a lot how men just aren't really stepping up in this space, that it's still really women who are pushing this agenda, who are talking about it, who are wanting things done, and I don't know. 00:24:01.117 --> 00:24:02.561 A lot of men are silent. 00:24:02.561 --> 00:24:05.135 I think they don't know what to do or what to say, perhaps. 00:24:05.135 --> 00:24:06.880 But what's going on here? 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:26.935 do you think, when you started saying that, the first thing I thought was you know, if you're that male that is committing domestic violence, then you know I don't think they're born with this agenda that this is what they're going to do and this is their purpose is to do this. 00:24:26.935 --> 00:24:46.527 So you know, you could imagine that they are probably sat there listening to all these awareness campaigns and listening to what's going on and there's probably, I'm sure well, there's not, probably there is this deep sense of shame with them and I think we are very good at that moment at throwing money into pure cure, cure, cure. 00:24:46.527 --> 00:24:51.681 But I would like, or hope, that there's something in there that we need to look at prevention. 00:24:51.681 --> 00:24:58.846 You know what is going on with these men that is causing this to happen, and we know that there are predisposing factors. 00:24:58.846 --> 00:25:05.304 We know that there are things like they may have gone through their own trauma as young children. 00:25:05.304 --> 00:25:21.021 We're predisposed to so many factors in ag, like the weather, the markets, the laws that are being passed constantly that are just going to build up their stresses, and the risky behavior, the drinking, the late night working. 00:25:21.021 --> 00:25:24.982 They're set on those tractors and their thoughts are going around their head as well. 00:25:24.982 --> 00:25:29.663 They're telling their own stories and making up their own stories in their head about what's going on. 00:25:30.765 --> 00:25:35.984 And I do not want to take anything away from domestic violence and I'm not making excuses. 00:25:35.984 --> 00:25:39.719 It shouldn't happen, it needs needs to stop. 00:25:39.719 --> 00:25:46.450 But I wonder why it's getting worse and what we're not doing. 00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:56.063 And I think you're right when you're talking about bringing men in, because they are not talking about it and I think it is because of that shame, and we're also not encouraging them to talk about it. 00:25:56.063 --> 00:25:58.929 We're not giving them a space where they can go. 00:25:58.929 --> 00:26:02.388 Well, let's work with you through what has been going on with you. 00:26:02.388 --> 00:26:06.429 Let's give you the tools so that you can change your behavior. 00:26:06.429 --> 00:26:16.958 At the moment, could you imagine, if they came forward and said they need help, the response that they would get in the community? 00:26:16.958 --> 00:26:18.622 And that's quite right. 00:26:18.622 --> 00:26:19.683 People are angry. 00:26:19.683 --> 00:26:21.127 They deserve to be angry. 00:26:21.775 --> 00:26:27.147 Yeah, I feel angry just thinking about the notion of that, you know, but is there somewhere that they can go? 00:26:27.147 --> 00:26:32.721 I mean, there are places where you can seek help and anger management and those sorts of things. 00:26:32.721 --> 00:26:42.443 I find it would be very hard for it to be an acceptable thing to discuss in community. 00:26:43.205 --> 00:27:03.099 Yeah, I do, and I think that's a really great insight and and I think that is one where we have to think outside the box we have to think, you know, there's stigma attached to reaching out about mental health in the first place, not specifically about surrounding domestic violence, but it's the same with suicide. 00:27:03.601 --> 00:27:20.836 There's stigma around reaching out and asking for help, and so what happens is we get these elevated stats and insights around suicide and it's because nobody wants to put themselves in that position where they might be seen or their car might be recognized or their youth might be recognized. 00:27:21.438 --> 00:27:26.067 So we need to look at interventions that meet them where they're at, in a safe space. 00:27:26.067 --> 00:27:30.538 We need to look at interventions that meet them where they're at, in a safe space, be it online. 00:27:30.538 --> 00:27:51.378 How amazing would it be if we had some funding to enable them to travel, to go

to these places that are in Perth or something like that, where they're off farm, so that they're not around those stresses all the time and they can take some time to breathe and to work through what is going on with them, so that we can stop it, but we can also prevent it. 00:27:51.378 --> 00:27:55.634 So if they're starting to feel like this, if they're starting to feel overwhelmed. 00:27:55.634 --> 00:28:15.548 They've got spaces to go, they've got places to go and people to turn to whether it's men's support group or whether it's health professionals like myself that want to, that really want to try and help prevent then that's where I think we're missing the point slightly is working in that prevention state? 00:28:17.471 --> 00:28:23.714 A lot of the women's groups who support women who have gone through domestic violence. 00:28:23.714 --> 00:28:42.528 They say that the core problem and there's a lot of research to support it they say that the core underlying problem is seeing women as lesser, is anger management part of it, or getting off the farm and being less stressed and alcohol. 00:28:51.874 --> 00:28:59.647 And, yes, they're all contributing factors, but it's that notion of women not being equal, yeah, and I think that comes back to almost a cultural paradigm thing. 00:28:59.647 --> 00:29:00.269 We've got this thing. 00:29:00.269 --> 00:29:04.332 It's toxic masculinity, right. 00:29:04.332 --> 00:29:20.798 There's almost this way that we think our men are supposed to behave they're supposed to be rigid, they're supposed to be stoic, they're supposed to contain what they're feeling and not let it out, and they're supposed to be the breadwinners and they're supposed to be the ones going out to work all the time, and they're supposed to be this strong, macho type of man. 00:29:20.798 --> 00:29:34.144 And so, yeah, and then what that carries into is probably this belief by them, in some level, that they are the alpha male and that everyone else is below them. 00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:55.911 And you know, you only have to look at I don't know whether you've heard of it, but there's something on the internet and it's labeled the manosphere, which is where you can go online, and there's this whole section of the internet that is created to lift men and oppress women, like you've got a man up, you've got to do this. 00:29:55.911 --> 00:29:57.674 And you know, I held a stretch. 00:29:57.674 --> 00:30:03.575 I read somewhere, I had a stretch for two minutes and it was painful all the time, but I did it and I came out stronger. 00:30:03.575 --> 00:30:06.541 You know that's not teaching them anything. 00:30:06.541 --> 00:30:15.251 That is just teaching them to be this strong man that they then take into their home and their work and they can't escape it. 00:30:15.251 --> 00:30:26.538 So they're surrounded by it and you know, when they're on the tractor or they're doing long hours, of course they're going to scroll the internet, of course they're

going to look through things, and this is where this is hitting them from, and it's constantly. 00:30:26.597 --> 00:30:37.874 What you were saying is you know, it's about oppressing women and saying they need to be the alpha male and they just need to get on with it, and so they hold this tension. 00:30:37.874 --> 00:30:48.468 And so, yes, yes, anger management great, I think that's a tool, but it's still not going back to what you just said, then, which is where is this coming from? 00:30:48.468 --> 00:30:52.902 Where are these beliefs coming from that they are bringing through? 00:30:52.902 --> 00:31:07.981 And that takes time to chip away at and that takes them to be able to be vulnerable and then to be able to have that safe space as well, but it takes people to lead the conversation to them, to open that up. 00:31:07.981 --> 00:31:10.259 They probably don't even know half of this stuff. 00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:22.503 They don't know their core beliefs that run that deep with them about this stuff until someone is going to stand up with them and talk with them about it, to change that behavior. 00:31:22.503 --> 00:31:27.761 And this needs to go right back to our grassroots level to change this. 00:31:28.910 --> 00:31:38.862 I'd love to see a man or you know lots of men actually step up in this space and just sort of say hey, you know, real men don't do that. 00:31:38.862 --> 00:31:46.781 I don't know someone that can advocate and talk to men in a way that they will listen and will admire that man as well. 00:31:46.781 --> 00:31:50.118 So I don't know where to find that person or these people. 00:31:51.651 --> 00:31:55.913 You know, you've got the likes of, I guess, Warren Davies, the Unbreakable Farmer. 00:31:56.215 --> 00:32:04.872 Oh, he's great, yeah, he's not too tough to speak and yeah, you're right. 00:32:04.892 --> 00:32:13.460 But and I think I said earlier on, like it's not always this top-down approach that we need, like research and evidence is great and we we need that as well, but what we also need is that bottom. 00:32:13.460 --> 00:32:18.076 But we need people with that experience to have the courage to go. 00:32:18.076 --> 00:33:04.378 I've either been there or I felt like this and, like you said, be that leadership, be that leader and be that role model to encourage others to step up as well and to encourage others to to be okay, to talk and look, I don't, I'm like you, I don't have the answers, but I work with people on both sides of the coin and I try to work with them without judgment, and sometimes that's really hard, but I guess I am hearing the other side of their pain and their shame and you're absolutely right that we do need someone to step up or an organization or something to step up and make that move and hopefully just create these stronger, healthier communities by that communication that they need as well. 00:33:05.190 --> 00:33:11.959 And we need people like you to work with men and to be that safe space and to

be that sounding board. 00:33:12.892 --> 00:33:22.818 And I think it's a good sign that you know some men are feeling shame and guilt about it, because it shows that they do feel something. 00:33:22.818 --> 00:33:32.721 I'm sure there's a proportion of the population that don't you know, like your psychopaths and all of those kind of people, but it's obviously a bigger problem than that because of how often it occurs. 00:33:32.721 --> 00:33:47.797 You know, one in three women have experienced violence and so some of them are absolute demons a small proportion but the rest of them live amongst us and can be great mates and good sons and all of those things. 00:33:47.797 --> 00:34:08.123 Which makes this whole issue so complex and so difficult to talk about it is because I think to save women's lives, we need to look at it from a more holistic perspective. 00:34:08.123 --> 00:34:15.916 So I still come at this from a we need to look after women perspective. 00:34:15.916 --> 00:34:24.190 Yeah, because a part of me always in this conversation goes why don't you just stop killing women, right, like I? 00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:25.554 Just like, just don't hit women. 00:34:25.976 --> 00:34:30.436 There you go Problem solved, but that's not working, so I have to accept that. 00:34:30.436 --> 00:34:37.744 And then how do we have that conversation in a way that is effective in changing what we've got now? 00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:45.132 Yeah, and it's so hard, isn't it, to have empathy or even sympathy, like you said. 00:34:45.132 --> 00:34:46.378 You know, just stop it. 00:34:46.378 --> 00:34:56.596 And there are people that are just narcissists and sociopaths and lock them up, throw away the key, you know, talk to them when they're in there. 00:34:56.596 --> 00:35:01.335 But there are, like you said, this group that they do feel the shame and they do feel the guilt. 00:35:01.929 --> 00:35:10.824 And it's trained behaviour too, isn't it Like, as in you, just if you've been doing that your whole life, you've never been taught how to regulate your emotions? 00:35:10.824 --> 00:35:11.789 It's? 00:35:11.789 --> 00:35:19.989 Yeah, it takes time to unpick that, and I think we as women can find that hard to understand, because I just don't have that Like. 00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:25.820 I just don't ever feel like hitting someone, you know, like I just, oh, I'll burst into tears. 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:28.713 Of course I get angry, but I don't ever. 00:35:28.713 --> 00:35:37.621 I don't know, it's just not part of the makeup and probably because of how I was raised or, you know, being female, I don't know all of those things. 00:35:38.650 --> 00:35:41.679 Oh, there's so many factors to the human brain. 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:48.978 The human brain is this phenomenal thing that I don't think we even know a fraction about, but it is learned behaviour. 00:35:48.978 --> 00:36:02.059 But with the human brain chemical imbalances, they know the difference between right or wrong law, but there's all these predisposing factors that are going on and they're a bit stuck that needs medication to help them with. 00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:06.139 But they've never even thought of that because it's never been brought up to them before. 00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:11.922 We are aware of these chemical imbalances and you think way back when it wouldn't have been talked about at all. 00:36:11.922 --> 00:36:23.824 They just had to keep going with it, and so, like you said, it's such ingrained behavior that has gone back so so far and it you, you know the core beliefs, whatever you want to call it. 00:36:23.824 --> 00:36:36.996 They take so long to change and so much work that there's all these things that are up against them already and then that pressure and then that shame as well that comes with it. 00:36:37.251 --> 00:36:40.538 And I'm not for a second making excuses at all. 00:36:40.538 --> 00:36:41.762 I want to make that absolutely clear. 00:36:41.762 --> 00:36:45.416 But there are reasons and we also can't deny the reasons. 00:36:45.596 --> 00:36:57.880 What would be a final takeaway message that you would like to give, talking about how we talk about our men, particularly our rural men. 00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.782 Yeah, what can we do in a positive light? 00:37:00.782 --> 00:37:09.221 And again I go back to the reason why I do want our men to feel valued because they are. 00:37:09.221 --> 00:37:21.336 They so are, and it's such a complex time that we're living in where we're finally really acknowledging family violence in the public sphere and tackling that we need to. 00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:28.052 That is so important. 00:37:28.052 --> 00:37:33.838 And I think number one is we have to keep shining a light on what's going on in our rural communities and our metropole when it comes to domestic violence, because nothing's going to change if we don't shine a light on it. 00:37:33.838 --> 00:37:38.755 But nothing's going to change if we don't involve everyone in the conversation. 00:37:38.755 --> 00:37:46.320 Nothing's going to change if we don't involve men and women, young and old, in this conversation, because it's going to be a cultural thing as well. 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.860 So we have to respectfully involve our younger people in it as well to make the change. 00:37:50.860 --> 00:38:04.733 I think it just comes back to communication and I have to get better at it as well Just letting them know that we do value them in the ways that we know they appreciate. 00:38:04.733 --> 00:38:10.851 Maybe it's just being a bit more tactile sometimes, just giving them a hug or something like that. 00:38:10.851 --> 00:38:15.884 We may not want it, but sometimes that touch can go a long way. 00:38:15.884 --> 00:38:20.639 It doesn't mean it has to lead into anything, but just a hug or something like that. 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:28.545 So it's I think if we quite, if we try and meet each other halfway, that's got to be a start to

making this change. 00:38:28.545 --> 00:38:32.074 And I think it still goes back to if we do want change. 00:38:32.074 --> 00:38:42.019 It has to be a case of us, not them, and not two separates, like we have to come together and work together. 00:38:42.019 --> 00:39:02.431 And it just comes back to, I think, people like you, people like me, people like anyone, having these conversations where we can, where you can use your influence, where I can use my influence, and making it okay to talk about these things, not hiding behind it anymore, making it okay to say you know what, babe, babe, these conversations aren't the best. 00:39:02.431 --> 00:39:03.635 How can we change this? 00:39:03.635 --> 00:39:07.170 Keeping it in the negative all the time, saying how can we change? 00:39:07.170 --> 00:39:14.891 What can we do as an individual, as a community, as quite as it sounds in the world, to create this change? 00:39:14.891 --> 00:39:19.737 So we can start to get like to a grassroots and create the change there? 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:25.126 I'm a big fan of continuous improvement in business and in life. 00:39:25.126 --> 00:39:28.860 We're all just one kind of work in progress. 00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:30.615 There's no end point. 00:39:30.615 --> 00:39:33.338 It's just one work in progress. 00:39:34.652 --> 00:39:37.059 Yeah, and no one is perfect. 00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:48.266 No matter what on social media or what someone tells you, or even if someone is using a platform to talk about something they know a lot about, it still doesn't make us perfect. 00:39:48.266 --> 00:39:50.132 We still all have our flaws. 00:39:50.132 --> 00:39:54.943 We never have all our ducks in a row and where we, I think as well. 00:39:54.943 --> 00:39:59.858 We don't look at people on a pedestal so much, but we just look at them as they might have an answer. 00:39:59.858 --> 00:40:04.505 They don't have all the answers and we don't compare ourselves all the time. 00:40:04.505 --> 00:40:10.842 It can take a lot of pressure off as well of how we perceive other people, because you never know what goes on behind closed doors. 00:40:10.842 --> 00:40:12.735 So, yeah, no one's perfect. 00:40:12.735 --> 00:40:13.719 No one at all. 00:40:16.751 --> 00:40:19.516 And that's it for this episode of Ducks on the Pond. 00:40:19.516 --> 00:40:21.221 My name is Kirsten Diprose. 00:40:21.221 --> 00:40:22.443 Thank you for listening. 00:40:22.443 --> 00:40:29.740 Thank you to Louise O'Neill for jumping right into those tricky questions and giving us some solid, everyday, practical tips too. 00:40:29.740 --> 00:40:32.809 This is a rural podcasting co-production. 00:40:32.809 --> 00:40:40.619 We empower rural people to tell their own story through podcast, coaching, consultation, strategy and even full service. 00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:45.978 Check out the website for more details, and we have a newsletter you can sign up to as well. 00:40:45.978 --> 00:40:54.152 You can follow Ducks on the Pond on Instagram and if you've got a good story idea, someone we should be speaking to, please let us know. 00:40:54.152 --> 00:40:55.815 I'll catch you next time.