Leveraging Uncertainty for Marketing Success의 전체 녹취록

as differences, there are mainly two kinds of differences. 00:05:39.256 --> 00:05:47.157 There's individual differences and then there also are cultural differences in people's attitudes or approach to uncertainty. 00:05:47.157 --> 00:05:52.752 So there's actually a personality trait called intolerance of uncertainty or you could say tolerance. 00:05:52.752 --> 00:05:56.127 So we all, of course, want to. 00:05:56.127 --> 00:06:01.881 My book is all about gaining skill in navigating uncertainty and responding to the unknown. 00:06:01.881 --> 00:06:06.083 But you know, to back up a bit, we all have a kind of comfort zone. 00:06:06.083 --> 00:06:08.865 You know give or take with uncertainty. 00:06:08.865 --> 00:06:16.030 So, just as you might be more or less shy than I am, or you know, extro you up for anxiety. 00:06:16.030 --> 00:06:17.850 Actually, you don't like surprises. 00:06:17.850 --> 00:06:31.107 You're more of a rigid thinker. 00:06:31.107 --> 00:06:37.780 You treat knowledge as something you hold and defend, rather something that can be continually updated. 00:06:37.780 --> 00:06:49.920 On the other hand, tolerance of uncertainty is really highly related to resilience and to mental well-being is really highly related to resilience and to mental well-being. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:07:01.492 It's people who are more tolerant of the uncertainties of life and also the unsureness they evoke are more likely to like surprises, be flexible thinkers and kind of even revel in a complex problem. 00:07:01.492 --> 00:07:09.391 So that's really important to be aware of where we all fit, but also it's also important to note that it's mutable. 00:07:09.391 --> 00:07:14.412 In other words, we can bolster our tolerance of uncertainty through very simple steps. 00:07:14.412 --> 00:07:16.487 There's a lot of work now about that. 00:07:16.487 --> 00:07:21.472 You know, just simply it's kind of jumping off exposure therapy. 00:07:21.472 --> 00:07:26.875 So a lot of studies show that hey, try a new dish in a restaurant or delegate more at work. 00:07:26.875 --> 00:07:32.011 Or I personally turn to open water, ocean swimming, all winter long. 00:07:32.011 --> 00:07:39.800 That's, you know, my daily dose of uncertainty, because the app can tell you everything but it really doesn't tell you anything when you're in the water. 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:41.823 So these are very simple steps. 00:07:42.223 --> 00:07:44.346 And then to get to your question about culture. 00:07:44.346 --> 00:07:53.036 And then to get to your question about culture, teams, companies, countries, all can have different sort of tolerance for uncertainty. 00:07:53.036 --> 00:08:14.903 So we can't generalize too much, of course, but we can gain kind of hints of different areas of the world or, as we might imagine, different companies have more or less tolerance of uncertainty. 00:08:14.903 --> 00:08:18.275 A design company is probably going to be more tolerant than you know, like a straight, straight, laced I don't know insurance company, and so that's really important to keep in mind. 00:08:18.375 --> 00:08:30.414 You know, if you're marketing or you're managing, for instance, you might want to frame your messaging differently according to whether to whether the audience is steeped in intolerance of uncertainty. 00:08:30.414 --> 00:08:48.540 So a manager who's introducing new training in a country, an area like South America, that's very rule-oriented and stability-focused, actually should kind of frame that training as something everyone's going to do but your job is safe and et cetera. 00:08:48.540 --> 00:09:00.221 If you're in a more tolerant of uncertainty, flexible kind of culture, you can say, hey, this is going to help you get ahead, it'll stretch you, it'll grow you, you're going to be working on the edge of your comfort zone. 00:09:00.221 --> 00:09:01.003 You get the picture. 00:09:01.003 --> 00:09:12.364 So these are different sort of nuances in this large issue of how well we tolerate uncertainty and again, the unsureness. 00:09:13.285 --> 00:09:15.974 Yeah, so that's fascinating background. 00:09:15.974 --> 00:09:20.430 So our, our industry of digital marketing is definitely one that's constantly changing. 00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:24.765 So the last numbers were that Google changes the algorithm nine times a day. 00:09:24.765 --> 00:10:32.846 We now know that might even be more than that, based on the most recent leak. 00:10:32.846 --> 00:10:36.833 So I've got two kind of questions here. 00:10:36.833 --> 00:10:56.221 One I'm kind of thinking when I was hiring folks for my team and I'm not sure that I really nailed the uncertainty bit, but I did try to find folks that had sort of outside the box thinking if that makes sense, Because if you're grabbing somebody from college and training them on this, they're ultimately going to fail if they can't handle the uncertainty. 00:10:56.221 --> 00:11:03.869 So my first question is is there any sort of way to like vet people's level of comfort with uncertainty? 00:11:03.869 --> 00:11:13.581 And then, for those folks that have decided they want to be in this career, what tips do you have for them to maybe bolster and increase their tolerance of constant change and uncertainty? 00:11:14.423 --> 00:11:14.865 Sure. 00:11:14.865 --> 00:11:26.346 Well, this is very, very new the attention, the intolerance of uncertainty can be tested, but it's very new. 00:11:26.346 --> 00:11:29.889 There's a lot of new attention to that. 00:11:29.889 --> 00:11:36.277 It hasn't really gained traction in the business world yet, although there's a lot of interest. 00:11:36.277 --> 00:11:45.389 So you can find on the internet the short form assessment for tolerance of uncertainty and you could actually give it to your employees. 00:11:45.389 --> 00:11:48.048 I would not take it too literally. 00:11:48.048 --> 00:11:52.100 Again, I wouldn't say that because someone scores high in tolerance and uncertainty.

00:11:53.384 --> 00:11:57.455 The second point about this is that it's not just mutable. 00:11:57.455 --> 00:12:01.346 We can challenge ourselves to be more tolerant of the uncertainty. 00:12:01.346 --> 00:12:02.769 But it's also situational. 00:12:02.769 --> 00:12:13.509 So when people are tired or overloaded, if you got a firm that's coming to a deadline or a team that's coming to a deadline on a project, they're likely to be exhausted and overloaded. 00:12:13.509 --> 00:12:17.643 That's when they'll show very high tolerance, intolerance of uncertainty. 00:12:17.643 --> 00:12:19.548 They will, and so they. 00:12:19.788 --> 00:12:28.283 We all should be aware of that, that certain situations we're going to lean into jumping to answers and disliking surprises, just when we need to be flexible. 00:12:28.283 --> 00:12:46.182 So that's really important and I think one way to there are two main real big takeaways from all of the new studies about uncertainty, and the first is you know, how do we gain adaptability in this world which is more and more unpredictable. 00:12:46.182 --> 00:12:50.010 You know, if the world itself, the uncertainty is rising. 00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:50.773 Unpredictability. 00:12:50.773 --> 00:12:59.086 You know, if the if the world itself, the uncertainty is rising, unpredictability, volatility, et cetera, that you know, studies show that that's the case. 00:12:59.086 --> 00:12:59.986 Well then, what is our response going to be? 00:12:59.986 --> 00:13:07.676 And studies of expertise can help us, because now the bottom line is that true experts actually know when and how to be unsure. 00:13:07.676 --> 00:13:11.451 That's how they are adaptable, that's how they're nimble in the moment. 00:13:11.451 --> 00:13:27.062 One big study of CEOs in the middle of a huge crisis in Europe actually found that the ambivalent CEOs were the ones who were more inclusive, listened to multiple perspectives and they were more resourceful. 00:13:27.062 --> 00:13:34.905 They actually tried and experimented to adapt to this crisis, which was the doubling expansion of the European Union. 00:13:34.905 --> 00:13:46.681 At the time, people who CEOs who thought that they knew just what to do and you know the typical expert response were actually ones who tended to do nothing at all. 00:13:46.681 --> 00:13:53.914 So it's not uncertainty that holds us back, it's our poor approaches to uncertainty. 00:13:54.460 --> 00:14:00.711 And so, just to continue further, we all gain expertise. 00:14:00.711 --> 00:14:09.073 You mentioned two decades in the field, and we gain through practice in our 10,000 hours, and so we do know what to do. 00:14:09.073 --> 00:14:14.965 We have these mental models the doctor hears chest pains and then thinks heart attack. 00:14:14.965 --> 00:14:22.167 You know you might, in your field or endeavor, know about certain situations that demand certain solutions. 00:14:22.167 --> 00:14:32.052 Even amidst the unpredictability, that kind of expertise is impressive and important in routine, predictable environments. 00:14:32.072 --> 00:14:48.120 So when you have seen it before, when this is not something new and complex and ambiguous, well then, yes, you can rely on old solutions, but it's the time when something is new and that you need to draw on that uncertainty. 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:49.222 You need to make time for it. 00:14:49.222 --> 00:14:50.745 I call it inhabiting the question. 00:14:50.745 --> 00:15:04.116 So superior experts are actually called adaptive experts and they're the ones who actually spend more time assessing a new, complex problem than even novices do. 00:15:04.116 --> 00:15:09.486 So you know you need to make time, you need to wade in to test and evaluate. 00:15:10.187 --> 00:15:14.894 This is the space of uncertainty that you know. 00:15:14.894 --> 00:15:17.545 Basically, this is the space of possibility that you're. 00:15:17.545 --> 00:15:23.667 You know testing and understanding and taking, and I'm talking about even just a few minutes. 00:15:23.667 --> 00:15:26.902 You know you're in a fast, fast, fast paced world. 00:15:26.902 --> 00:15:36.375 I studied surgeons and actually went into the operating room and if they took just a few minutes to assess a crisis, they were far, far better off in the long run. 00:15:36.375 --> 00:15:37.801 Those were the adaptive experts. 00:15:37.801 --> 00:15:52.593 And another way we can be an adaptive expert is to take on harder cases, kind of live at the edge of your comfort zone rather than always, you know, coasting with what you already know. 00:15:52.593 --> 00:16:00.474 Those are the experts who actually, you know, grow rather than just continue to apply old solutions. 00:16:00.474 --> 00:16:04.490 So those are a couple of that's a really important point about uncertainty. 00:16:05.725 --> 00:16:06.620 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:17.821 In fact, one of the audio books that I'm reading um diary of a CEO kind of talks about that, with one of his tips for being successful was uh, if it's uncomfortable, lean in. 00:16:17.821 --> 00:16:28.123 Especially if it's a learning thing like, lean in, just keep going, keep leaning in until it you know, you sort of understand it a bit more, but don't back away from things that are scary and new, basically. 00:16:28.123 --> 00:16:30.809 Um, so I'm of curious cause. 00:16:30.809 --> 00:16:34.284 In your book you mentioned that this uncertainty creates good stress. 00:16:34.284 --> 00:16:44.402 So and the quote that I particularly liked was people who learn to reappraise stress as natural and useful are more perceptive and effective in challenging situations. 00:16:44.402 --> 00:16:47.412 So how do people get to that state? 00:16:47.412 --> 00:16:51.827 How do they regulate their nervous system so they can think through situations? 00:16:51.827 --> 00:16:58.644 And is there any advice you might have for listeners that get anxious and stressed when

confronted with workplace uncertainty? 00:16:59.365 --> 00:17:18.547 Yes, that's a great question and that actually aligns with the second most powerful takeaway from the new studies of uncertainty Basically, studies of uncertainty, basically uncertainty's angst, uncertainty's unease is beneficial, it's the gift, so it is good stress. 00:17:18.547 --> 00:17:24.490 Whenever I travel, I talk to audiences and ask them what's the one word that comes to mind when I mention uncertainty? 00:17:24.490 --> 00:17:29.346 And invariably the responses are angst and unease. 00:17:29.346 --> 00:17:33.473 And that's really true because, as I mentioned, we as humans need and want answers. 00:17:33.473 --> 00:17:34.455 So you get uneasy. 00:17:34.455 --> 00:17:49.929 Well, that unease is basically your body and brain springing to action to meet this new thing, whatever it is to investigate, and so your heartmate race in that traffic jam or your cortisol levels will probably rise. 00:17:49.929 --> 00:17:56.145 At the same time, your brain undergoes these really powerful positive changes. 00:17:56.145 --> 00:18:07.001 So, for instance, your working memory improves, your brain becomes more receptive to new data when you're uncertain and your focus sharpens, you're on your toes. 00:18:07.001 --> 00:18:19.501 And one study of emergency medicine doctors found that when they're in a sticky situation clinically and they felt unsure, that's the time when their attention was really sharp. 00:18:19.501 --> 00:18:20.523 So they were able to. 00:18:20.523 --> 00:18:24.373 So this is what's happening is called arousal by scientists. 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.885 Uncertainty is not something to fear or to retreat from. 00:18:27.885 --> 00:18:30.652 It's something to lean into, because of two things. 00:18:30.652 --> 00:18:39.182 First of all, uncertainty is literally, as one neuroscientist told me, the brain telling itself there's something to be learned here. 00:18:39.182 --> 00:18:40.925 So what does that mean? 00:18:40.925 --> 00:18:47.086 It's basically uncertainty is the body and brain's way of jolting us out of that routine, that kind of autopilot. 00:18:47.086 --> 00:18:49.373 We live our days kind of knowing just what to do, how to tie our shoes, how to make a cup of coffee. 00:18:49.373 --> 00:18:49.954 Now there's of autopilot. 00:18:49.954 --> 00:18:53.104 We live our days kind of knowing just what to do, how to tie our shoes, how to make a cup of coffee. 00:18:53.104 --> 00:19:02.115 Now there's something whoa new and your brain is telling you to now slow down and update your understanding of the world. 00:19:02.115 --> 00:19:04.461 It's really important not to so. 00:19:04.461 --> 00:19:13.490 This is why ambivalent CEOs were more resourceful, because they picked up on this wakefulness and then they waded into that space of possibility. 00:19:13.490 --> 00:19:15.828 So those are the two most important. 00:19:16.961 --> 00:19:31.267 And to get to that dreaded word, anxiety, which is also on everybody's minds when it comes to uncertainty, it's very, very important to understand that uncertainty, the arousal of uncertainty, is distinct from fear. 00:19:31.267 --> 00:19:44.048 So basically, when you're afraid of your boss's anger because you can't get to the meeting, or you're afraid of next year because it seems like you really don't know what's going to coming down the road. 00:19:44.048 --> 00:19:56.204 These sorts of fears actually produce a different reaction to in the body and brain and in essence, in a nutshell, it's basically a shutdown, your body and brain shutdown. 00:19:56.204 --> 00:19:57.710 We all know what that feels like. 00:19:57.710 --> 00:20:10.142 We're giving a presentation and we feel this angst and you feel like you're shutting down, not rising to the moment, because you're going into survival mode and your brain actually blood begins to funnel away from the brain. 00:20:10.142 --> 00:20:15.528 So how can we kind of avert that, not go down that road of anxiety? 00:20:15.528 --> 00:20:19.070 How can we go into the arousal and wakefulness? 00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:30.007 Well, first of all, understand it sounds really simplistic, but hey, understand that the world is always going to be changed, it's always about change. 00:20:30.007 --> 00:20:51.294 So if our default mode is think, oh gosh, I wish this Monday morning meeting was just the same thing and I'm not going to, you know, I wish the week was, you know completely, nothing ever happened, and you know, then you're basically tuning out of that arousal, you're not picking up on the signal that uncertainty is giving you, so you're not picking up on changes in your environment. 00:20:51.294 --> 00:21:01.888 And the second thing we can do is to, in order to harness this arousal, this wakefulness, is to dial back on outcome fixation Now. 00:21:01.888 --> 00:21:03.291 So that's basically. 00:21:03.291 --> 00:21:04.540 I mean this. 00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:29.528 Studies in sports and in, you know, giving tough presentations and all sorts of challenging situations, find that when people focus on the outcome, in other words, what's in it for me, or, more commonly, I think I'm gonna fail or the audience doesn't like this presentation, that's an outcome fixation that removes our attention away from the process of gaining a good outcome. 00:21:29.940 --> 00:21:36.269 So your mind is elsewhere, you're putting the cart before the horse, and that's really important to just stop that. 00:21:36.269 --> 00:21:50.571 And so one way to do that is to get very present oriented during challenging situations, and so top athletes actually use things something called cue words, a very simple little trick. 00:21:50.571 --> 00:21:52.586 It's a personal mantra. 00:21:52.586 --> 00:21:56.828 In the middle of a trying situation, you just have a little mantra. 00:21:56.828 --> 00:21:59.497 You might say focus now to yourself. 00:21:59.497 --> 00:22:10.644 Or you might

say be now, and that's actually proven to help you become more engaged in the moment, more alert, and then do, and it enhances performance. 00:22:10.644 --> 00:22:21.550 So that all has to do with seeing uncertainty as good stress, picking up on it, leaning into it, seeing that the world is always going to be full of change. 00:22:21.550 --> 00:22:24.805 Then you're on your toes rather than retreating away. 00:22:24.805 --> 00:22:27.729 From that kind of performance mode you need. 00:22:28.850 --> 00:22:33.973 Well, and it sounds like meditation might be a little bit there too, because that'll help you maintain the present. 00:22:33.973 --> 00:22:36.198 This resonates a lot with me. 00:22:36.198 --> 00:22:37.019 I do. 00:22:37.019 --> 00:22:47.791 I think I've told this people on the podcast before, but I do a weekly check-in, check-out just to manage my life every week, and one of the things is I picked this up from somewhere else, but there you have like a word, motivational word for the week. 00:22:47.791 --> 00:22:50.016 Mine, without fail, never changes. 00:22:50.016 --> 00:22:52.801 It's always the same, but it's one step at a time. 00:22:52.801 --> 00:23:01.294 So it's not one word, mind you, but it's just reminding me that I can't look at the whole thing. 00:23:01.294 --> 00:23:03.597 I'm just going to pick one, one step at a time, then do the next step. 00:23:03.597 --> 00:23:06.644 That, personally, reigns in my overwhelm. 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:12.698 Yeah, that's perfect, and that's basically allowing yourself to be in uncertainty. 00:23:12.698 --> 00:23:22.597 So then you can perform and and be, you know, kind of navigate, harness the best of uncertainty, rather than kind of wishing it were over. 00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:24.913 Right, Right, Cause it's it's. 00:23:24.913 --> 00:23:27.140 I'm in a space where it's not going to be over. 00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:29.155 No, no. 00:23:30.731 --> 00:23:43.359 One, one leading psychologist, one world's leading psychologist on anxiety, michelle Dugas of Canada, said to me you know, put it very pithily, if you have difficulty dealing with uncertainty, you have difficulty dealing with a life. 00:23:45.411 --> 00:23:48.497 Yeah, I know, I think it was very heartbreaking. 00:23:48.497 --> 00:23:53.536 I weirdly remember as a kid when I realized that life is always changing. 00:23:53.536 --> 00:23:57.059 I have, like this childhood memory of being very sad. 00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:00.680 I forget how old I was, but I really wanted things to be stable. 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.419 I'm going to guess it's eight, because I particularly liked being eight for some reason. 00:24:04.419 --> 00:24:05.821 But that's not true. 00:24:05.821 --> 00:24:12.461 Like you always change, you grow, you go through puberty, you go to a different school, like stuff's changing all the time. 00:24:12.461 --> 00:24:15.512 Through puberty, you go to a different school, like stuff's changing all the time. 00:24:15.512 --> 00:24:21.673 Um, though, possibly I have more, uh, patients with uncertainty Cause I I discovered early on with jobs where it was the same thing every day. 00:24:21.673 --> 00:24:22.657 I got horribly bored. 00:24:22.657 --> 00:24:23.903 So I'm on the other end. 00:24:24.064 --> 00:24:27.375 I like new challenges, just personally, um. 00:24:27.375 --> 00:24:30.060 And so what I found interesting is cause. 00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:43.199 Maybe this gets back to like vetting vetting your employees because one of the things that I did with team members is that I, if you were interviewing for me, coming from college, you have no idea what SEO is. 00:24:43.199 --> 00:24:48.959 I would give you a screenshot of Google analytics and say what can you get from this information? 00:24:48.959 --> 00:24:50.281 What would your next question be? 00:24:50.281 --> 00:25:00.153 Trying to tap into that curiosity, because if you can't take a leap of like, you know, if you can't be curious about it, you're just not going to be a good fit for the industry. 00:25:00.153 --> 00:25:06.201 But what I found interesting with your book is you said that this uncertainty is the key to curiosity. 00:25:06.201 --> 00:25:09.031 So can you tell me a little bit more about that, because I think that was fascinating. 00:25:09.653 --> 00:25:27.442 Yeah, no, it's really interesting and it also also kind of lends itself to what is the personality that best you know who best navigates uncertainty and who is you know that goes hand in hand with who is the curious person, as you're saying, because you know, just to. 00:25:27.442 --> 00:25:30.198 You know kind of sink into what we had been talking about. 00:25:30.198 --> 00:25:42.993 If you can, you know, open up to the world with curiosity and wonder rather than fear, and you know sort of anxiety, then you're going to just do a better job, day by day, minute by minute. 00:25:42.993 --> 00:25:51.894 So there's a lot of work now on curiosity and there are a lot of different types of curiosity and they're all studying all sorts of different interesting things that have never been explored before. 00:25:51.894 --> 00:25:55.121 You know, for instance, there are different styles of curiosity. 00:25:55.121 --> 00:26:04.875 Some people have this pinpoint style called the hunter and they go after you know that they want the answer to X question and that's really a valid. 00:26:04.875 --> 00:26:11.012 And then at the same time people also can sort of lean toward this busy buddy kind of curious. 00:26:11.012 --> 00:26:12.736 They're just interested in everything. 00:26:12.736 --> 00:26:15.540 I know personally as a reporter and a journalist. 00:26:15.540 --> 00:26:20.173 That's a really good thing to be as a journalist and most people are kind of a blend of the two. 00:26:20.474 --> 00:26:28.699 But the one thing that all curious people have in common is tolerance for the stress of the unknown. 00:26:28.699 --> 00:26:33.469 So really closely related to

that tolerance of uncertainty, but kind of tolerating the good stress, seeing the benefits. 00:26:33.469 --> 00:26:36.682 So really closely related to that tolerance of uncertainty, but kind of tolerating the good stress, seeing the benefits. 00:26:36.682 --> 00:26:43.454 So the people who tolerate the stress of uncertainty are actually the ones who are actively curious. 00:26:43.454 --> 00:26:48.310 You can be curious and like, oh, I wonder about this, but not actually do much about it. 00:26:48.310 --> 00:26:56.596 Those who are able to tolerate the awkwardness or the sort of possibly's really fascinating. 00:26:56.596 --> 00:27:17.864 Most fascinating is this tolerance of the stress of uncertainty is the facet of curiosity. 00:27:17.864 --> 00:27:19.990 That's most related to well being. 00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:28.192 So people who can you know, actively explore, who can raise their hand and ask a difficult question, etc. 00:27:28.192 --> 00:27:28.552 Etc. 00:27:28.552 --> 00:27:33.163 Those are the people who have higher well being, more life satisfaction. 00:27:33.163 --> 00:27:35.825 Those are the people who have higher well-being, more life satisfaction. 00:27:35.825 --> 00:27:38.684 They are just better off mentally in life. 00:27:39.025 --> 00:27:39.484 And because? 00:27:39.484 --> 00:27:40.265 Why? 00:27:40.265 --> 00:27:45.086 Because they're open to all of life, not just the good but also the bad. 00:27:45.086 --> 00:27:52.847 They're open to the frontiers of what they don't know and they just continually to push into that. 00:27:52.847 --> 00:27:59.949 So it's I think it's really interesting to link uncertainty and resilience and wellbeing. 00:27:59.949 --> 00:28:15.903 The other thing that's really related is that people who go through sort of experiments or therapy actually targeted therapy to bolster their tolerance of uncertainty actually they have more resilience. 00:28:15.903 --> 00:28:19.617 So all of this, you can see, is highly related to each other. 00:28:19.617 --> 00:28:28.522 If you can be open to uncertainty, you can be curious, and if you're curious and open to uncertainty, then you are more nimble. 00:28:28.522 --> 00:28:36.420 And that's what a lot of people tell me, because there's a lot of work going on in business, in medicine and all sorts of different sectors about this. 00:28:36.420 --> 00:28:41.872 Uh, try boosting people's uh ability to navigate uncertainty. 00:28:41.872 --> 00:28:48.692 Uh, people constantly use the same word when they begin to understand this, they say it's liberating. 00:28:49.955 --> 00:28:55.567 That's, that's a really powerful word liberating so that's that's a really powerful word liberating. 00:28:55.567 --> 00:29:01.577 So that's so interesting Cause I on the show, I'm definitely dancing around this idea of resilience Like how do you become more resilient? 00:29:01.577 --> 00:29:04.994 And you're just approaching it from a sort of a different perspective for anyone listening. 00:29:04.994 --> 00:29:09.879 We actually had Lloyd Lobo on talking about the power of community to also give you more resilience. 00:29:09.879 --> 00:29:16.458 So if you're, if you yourself are also curious about how to build your resilience, I encourage you to check out that episode. 00:29:18.232 --> 00:29:23.300 So I just want to circle back around to the nitty gritty of what goes on in this industry. 00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:31.956 So oftentimes things are changing under our feet and we need to appear confident when providing recommendations. 00:29:31.956 --> 00:29:48.431 First of all, I have to come up with recommendations, and then we have to be confident, and then the data underneath it might be horribly incomplete, because the tools we use don't tell us the whole picture, and so, as much as we try to get the whole picture honestly in the back of our head, we know that it's missing some stuff. 00:29:48.431 --> 00:29:51.414 So how do you handle? 00:29:51.414 --> 00:29:55.619 Do you have any recommendations about how to handle that from your research? 00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:59.986 What strategies or mindsets can help people be more confident in that particular moment? 00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:17.202 is often seen as weakness, as inertia, when actually it's the fear of uncertainty that's more highly related to inertia. 00:30:17.202 --> 00:30:21.575 Uncertainty is seen as weakness in leaders and in expertise, but that's not the case at all. 00:30:21.575 --> 00:30:23.419 The research doesn't show us. 00:30:23.419 --> 00:30:25.083 It's the opposite, actually. 00:30:25.083 --> 00:30:28.815 So I think there are two couple important points. 00:30:28.815 --> 00:30:41.960 First of all, today we're really under pressure very often in this quick answer, quick fix kind of tech-oriented environment, to be confident. 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:54.559 Unwarranted confidence is what's demanded, in other words, confidence that's immediate, confidence that's ultra-sure, and that's actually not going to gain us the better answer. 00:30:54.559 --> 00:31:03.959 You know, I was at one conference and executives were saying well, we need to be quick, we uncertainty slows you down, and yes, it slows you down briefly, as I mentioned. 00:31:03.959 --> 00:31:12.752 But at the same time, uncertainty gives you the better answer, not just any old answer, it allows you to get to the better answer. 00:31:12.752 --> 00:31:15.019 And where does confidence have to do that? 00:31:15.019 --> 00:31:20.250 Well then, you're gaining a kind of solid confidence, a confidence on knowing the ropes. 00:31:20.250 --> 00:31:27.218 You can't know everything, as you mentioned, but you can know the situation, you can understand what you're coping with. 00:31:27.218 --> 00:31:29.277 That's a solid kind of confidence. 00:31:30.211 --> 00:31:37.057 Now, at the same time, it's important although we all want to be confident and we should be confident in our answer. 00:31:37.057 --> 00:31:47.449 But in a

client situation or a management situation, it's really important to understand that expressions of uncertainty are not bad. 00:31:47.449 --> 00:31:49.512 In fact, they're actually highly beneficial. 00:31:49.512 --> 00:31:56.224 For instance, expressions of uncertainty are persuasive, believe it or not. 00:31:56.224 --> 00:32:04.471 Now, we wouldn't think that the doctor or the SEO expert who says they're not sure of the answer would be persuasive. 00:32:04.471 --> 00:32:07.419 But it's true as long as it's linked to potential. 00:32:07.419 --> 00:32:15.359 So you wouldn't want the doctor to walk into the room and say I really don't know what to do with your case, or the SEO experts the same of the client. 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:18.325 But what you can do is link it to potential. 00:32:18.325 --> 00:32:27.971 For instance, the doctor can say I'm not sure, but I have resources or colleagues who can help me and we're going to figure this out. 00:32:27.971 --> 00:32:29.113 There's potential there. 00:32:29.113 --> 00:32:47.219 Or you can say plan A, our next marketing strategy plan is you know, we're not 100% sure that this is going to be guaranteed successful, but we have a lot of the evidence that shows it likely will be and there's a lot of potential there. 00:32:47.298 --> 00:32:57.259 People respond really well because it's plausible, because it's persuasive, and the other thing that it's really important to understand is that the words we use. 00:32:57.259 --> 00:33:06.560 I think the more I immerse myself in uncertainty the more I see this kind of culture, addicted to using certainty words. 00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:25.041 You know that's for sure and absolutely. 00:33:25.041 --> 00:33:41.612 Those are actually not seen as professional in workplace situations when used by executives and studies out of Harvard as making people seem more professional, more approachable, you know, just as authoritative and yet more human to deal with, which is a very good thing. 00:33:41.612 --> 00:33:44.020 And these words do two things. 00:33:44.081 --> 00:33:52.116 Linguistically, if I use the word maybe, it signals to you that there's something more to know, which is very important. 00:33:52.116 --> 00:33:59.046 If you're working together, you really need to know where your knowledge ends and where you need to do further work. 00:33:59.046 --> 00:34:16.314 The second thing is that the word maybe and these other hedge words indicate that you are receptive to another person's perspective, which is also very, very important today, especially in a divisive society and divisive workplaces. 00:34:16.314 --> 00:34:30.092 So these little granular words like maybe and that would be in contrast to you know, obviously, or you know you're wrong or therefore those are the opposite of hedge words. 00:34:30.092 --> 00:34:32.876 Then they are not persuasive and they don't help. 00:34:32.876 --> 00:34:35.884 You appear to be someone who everybody wants to work with. 00:34:35.884 --> 00:34:45.619 So those are some granular tips and strategies for how to be confident while also being strategically unsure. 00:34:46.852 --> 00:34:50.461 I just I need to have an episode about what words you should and should not use. 00:34:50.461 --> 00:34:58.224 I'm just utterly fascinated with ones that are more persuasive versus not, and how to train yourself to use the ones that are more effective. 00:34:58.224 --> 00:35:01.155 As just a side note, I find it very fascinating. 00:35:01.155 --> 00:35:06.052 So let's pivot for a second and talk about this team dynamic. 00:35:06.052 --> 00:35:24.483 So in your book you've talked about this, and we haven't talked about it much yet on the show, but that fostering a culture of uncertainty is going to lead you to better outcomes, basically, and so can you talk a little bit more about the value of that and how to build a team that can handle uncertainty? 00:35:25.269 --> 00:35:26.092 Yes, yes, no. 00:35:26.092 --> 00:35:34.061 It's really important to understand that uncertainty is not a solo act, that we can be unsure productively together. 00:35:34.061 --> 00:35:53.282 And in fact, very, very new research shows that uncertainty is the foundation, it's kind of the bedrock of excellence in group collaboration and teamwork, and this is true of Supreme Court justices or climber Mount Everest expeditions or workplace teams. 00:35:53.282 --> 00:36:04.611 So it runs the gamut and so you know. 00:36:04.611 --> 00:36:10.193 Of course, to back up or to preface, it's very often seen as agreement is what we all want to strive for and of course you know again, that should be the end goal, but it really shouldn't be the norm in a team. 00:36:10.193 --> 00:36:25.941 When a team is in agreement, when a team agrees, even no matter how diverse that team is, they start to lose sight of individual differences, different levels of knowledge, expertise. 00:36:25.941 --> 00:36:34.391 They lose what's called the hidden profile of what each individually knows and they begin to most often talk about what everybody already knows. 00:36:34.391 --> 00:36:37.899 Maybe that'll ring some bells from your audience. 00:36:37.899 --> 00:36:41.398 You sit around and talk about what everybody knows and you're not going to progress. 00:36:41.398 --> 00:36:48.800 Teams that are in agreement are also less accurate and less creative and the discussions are more shallow and cursory. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:37:07.619 That's what happens when we're trying to get on the same page and stay there, whereas teams that are disagreeing who you know productively, respectfully, micro conflicts it's often called, those are the ones that have more intense discussions, that surface this hidden information, that are more accurate, creative, etc. 00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:07.960 Etc. 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.550 Now so the question is how Well? 00:37:10.710 --> 00:37:18.278 I studied a deep dive in the Mars Exploration Rover team, which is

considered one of the most innovative in space history. 00:37:18.278 --> 00:37:29.292 They were an amazing team, diverse in all ways, and they basically were highly successful putting those robots on Mars, discovering water, et cetera, et cetera. 00:37:29.292 --> 00:37:34.661 Because they constantly cultivated disagreement. 00:37:34.661 --> 00:37:35.843 And why? 00:37:35.843 --> 00:37:38.032 In order to gain uncertainty. 00:37:38.032 --> 00:37:41.219 So this is what happens when you're disagreeing. 00:37:42.501 --> 00:37:56.396 In today's polarized world, we often assume that, oh, a disagreement is good if the right side wins, or disagreement is good if that dissenting voice has the right answer and everybody follows behind. 00:37:56.396 --> 00:37:59.900 But that's not actually how the best collaboration works. 00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:18.983 When there's disagreement, actually what should happen is that the disagreement spurs, sparks, uncertainty, and then there's a whole new dynamic of curious and skeptical, intense kind of discussions and all those performance gains. 00:38:18.983 --> 00:38:21.713 Well, how do we know that uncertainty is so important? 00:38:21.713 --> 00:38:29.317 Because even dissenting or disagreeing voices that are wrong actually end up with these performance gains. 00:38:29.317 --> 00:38:43.632 Somebody can be wrong, but it's the jolting the group off the assumptions and sparking the uncertainty that lets people know what they don't know, and the gains are just stunning. 00:38:43.632 --> 00:38:44.432 It's really amazing. 00:38:44.473 --> 00:39:07.250 And in this Mars rover team, 20% of their conversations remote, virtual side-by-side, all sorts of conversations involve micro conflicts and they often use those hedge words, maybe sometimes things like that I don't know that, things like that but also 100% of the micro conflicts involve expressions of uncertainty. 00:39:08.011 --> 00:39:40.278 So one one page we can take away from this Mars team, which is absolutely fascinating, was so highly studied, is they had something the time would say does anyone have anything they disagree with and is there anything that someone doesn't know? 00:39:40.278 --> 00:39:44.315 In other words, raise your hand and say I don't understand or I disagree. 00:39:44.315 --> 00:39:47.142 And they kept to that listening ritual and it was. 00:39:47.142 --> 00:39:51.819 That was one of the more important ways, means of their success. 00:39:51.819 --> 00:39:53.944 So it's absolutely fascinating. 00:39:53.944 --> 00:40:18.120 So I think I call this gaining uncommon ground and basically you know what we want to do, to do right by our teams, is to not only accept disagreement and then the resulting uncertainty, but also to offer it ourselves and not see that, as you know, the person who disagrees or engenders uncertainty shouldn't be seen as a pain in the neck. 00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:20.232 They should be the hero of the group, really. 00:40:21.775 --> 00:40:26.812 You're just reminding me why, when I was in an agency, I hated brainstorming sessions. 00:40:26.812 --> 00:40:42.820 Because the agency I was at I would be the one coming with a unique perspective, because I was the only digital one sitting there and I was always shut down and the brainstorming sessions were always about finding the one thing everybody agreed on and it just felt like it was not brainstorming per se. 00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:47.625 There was no new ideas, anyway, especially since I was coming with new ideas and shut down. 00:40:47.625 --> 00:40:55.002 Anyway, that's just fascinating and I love the tips about how to close out the meeting to make sure you're keeping that curiosity, basically. 00:40:55.002 --> 00:41:02.780 So the other thing I want to flip to, because you mentioned just a little bit so we've got I'm a little bit concerned about the future in general. 00:41:03.171 --> 00:41:06.990 So, if we go a little bit meta, obviously the world is uncertain. 00:41:06.990 --> 00:41:10.816 We're in a pandemic, we're watching the bird flu thing, we've got climate change. 00:41:10.816 --> 00:41:22.636 So, beyond even just the industry, life's a bit uncertain for sure. 00:41:22.636 --> 00:41:24.524 And on top of that, we know that online everybody's experience is personalized to them. 00:41:24.524 --> 00:41:34.758 So you know, I've mentioned on the show, I think, the filter bubble, which is all about the fact you're only going to get opinions that confirm what you think, because social media platforms, you know, personalized to you, so to search. 00:41:34.758 --> 00:41:45.589 So I'm kind of concerned about where we're going, because you just talked about how, in order to get to a better outcome, we actually need this diversity. 00:41:45.589 --> 00:41:58.011 So do you want to talk a little bit about how, maybe, if we just pull it down to the individual level, if you're an educated person, what can you do to make sure you're not too filtered? 00:41:58.011 --> 00:42:00.578 And you've got this broad perspective. 00:42:01.665 --> 00:42:18.332 Right, yeah, no, that's important because in talking about workplace teams and collaboration through disagreement and uncertainty, I'm really talking about, you know, kind of progressing or collaborating with so-called our side, even amidst diversity. 00:42:18.332 --> 00:42:25.996 We want to not rest only in the known, in other words, not just hang around with people like us. 00:42:25.996 --> 00:42:29.937 You might be bonded with your team and still able to be uncertain. 00:42:29.937 --> 00:42:34.419 You might be still able to engender that disagreement that puts you forward. 00:42:34.419 --> 00:42:50.610 Or there's someone who's even the opposite sports team, across the stadium, or the person across, you know, in your neighbor, whose politics you loathe. 00:42:50.610 --> 00:42:51.894 These are the bridges that we also need to make. 00:42:51.894 --> 00:42:55.125 This is also where the

open-mindedness of uncertainty can really help us today. 00:42:55.125 --> 00:43:09.755 So, in the meta view, you know, we really need to understand you know the people the other side, to understand you know the people the other side, so to speak, through gaining more uncertainty. 00:43:09.755 --> 00:43:12.783 Because, basically, the humans are, you know, we evolved to need and want answers. 00:43:12.783 --> 00:43:14.787 We also evolved to categorize. 00:43:14.787 --> 00:43:37.530 Even when you see a face of someone, either online or, you know, down the street either online or down the street unconsciously your brain assesses within milliseconds whether that person is in-group or out-group, like you or not like you, and from there the brain begins to quiet in these complex, interesting ways. 00:43:37.530 --> 00:43:46.813 When your brain sees someone they deem out-group, they begin to quiet down and so they become less like an individual. 00:43:46.813 --> 00:43:56.655 So this categorization socially is very, very dangerous, leads to dehumanization and misunderstandings at the very least, and the polarization we see today. 00:43:56.655 --> 00:44:06.860 One way again we can jolt ourselves out of that unconscious categorization is well, two ways. 00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:12.878 One is first of all to try to actively, deliberately, see another person as an individual. 00:44:12.878 --> 00:44:16.097 You know, studies show that again, this could be true. 00:44:16.097 --> 00:44:27.233 Even if you know you were talking about being the only person from digital in these meetings, well, they probably categorized you as, oh, that person from digital, and we say, oh, that person from accounting. 00:44:27.233 --> 00:44:43.799 We could do this in the workplace just as easily and say to ourselves well, let's think about who Joe is or Sally is or whoever they are, rather than the person from the, from the, you know accounting or whatever. 00:44:44.385 --> 00:44:55.963 The second really powerful way to both lower prejudice and also to gain a kind of the space for mutual learning that uncertainty gives us is something called perspective taking. 00:44:55.963 --> 00:45:03.216 I mean, that's just kind of your grandmother's folk wisdom, you know, thinking about the world through their eyes. 00:45:03.216 --> 00:45:07.109 Now, this is not empathy, it's not how do they feel, but it's really. 00:45:07.109 --> 00:45:11.887 What does the world look like through the eyes of a 90-year-old if you're 30? 00:45:11.887 --> 00:45:17.845 Or through the eyes of a you know X party political party if you're from Y political party? 00:45:17.845 --> 00:45:36.198 And that little bit of leap of imagination actually makes people more likely to work together, to want to sit closer together, even if they're really you know, outcasts in society, like a convicted felon or a drug addict, etc. 00:45:36.198 --> 00:45:40.841 And it really kind of matches. 00:45:40.881 --> 00:45:51.062 What Socrates tried to teach a long time ago, at the dawn of the democracy, was that that perspective taking is just a leap of imagination. 00:45:51.163 --> 00:46:06.230 You really don't know what they think or how they see the world through their eyes, but by doing so you're in some ways, I think, seeking, you're basically self-induced arousal is how I describe it. 00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:15.856 You're basically moving away from that easy, complacent categorization and you're suddenly waking up to the fact that maybe there's something you don't know about them. 00:46:15.856 --> 00:46:26.027 That sets the stage for the engagement that allows us to learn from each other, engagement that allows us to learn from each other. 00:46:26.027 --> 00:46:33.389 So it's a really important simple little tactic that people are now that is getting a lot of scientific attention and is being used in political campaigns. 00:46:33.389 --> 00:46:46.059 As activists talk to opposition voters on, you know, lgbtq rights, they're using this as a core of a way to help people lower prejudice on both sides. 00:46:46.059 --> 00:46:54.780 The activist, you know, might have prejudice against the opponent and the opponent has prejudice against them or closed mindedness. 00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:59.517 This helps open both minds and then they can talk, which is golden. 00:47:00.946 --> 00:47:01.708 Those are great tips. 00:47:01.708 --> 00:47:03.934 So we're we're just about out of time. 00:47:03.934 --> 00:47:05.266 I actually have just a few more questions. 00:47:05.266 --> 00:47:10.726 The first one is we have this thing called artificial intelligence, right? 00:47:10.726 --> 00:47:15.355 That's sort of taking over our industry, both automation and AI. 00:47:15.355 --> 00:47:17.519 Do you have just? 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:22.953 What is your opinion about how that's going to impact our future, Because I know you talk about it a little bit in the book. 00:47:24.054 --> 00:47:27.299 Oh yes, it's a very complicated and it's you know. 00:47:27.299 --> 00:47:28.280 Talk about change. 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.494 It's changing, you know, by the millisecond as we speak. 00:47:31.494 --> 00:47:43.236 But one thought I have is that we have to be very, very careful that AI doesn't do what most technologies have done in the history of human technologies, which is human. 00:47:43.236 --> 00:47:47.561 You know, machine age onwards technology. 00:47:47.561 --> 00:47:55.054 So I'm not talking about the stick or the ax, I'm talking about the machine onwards to computers, and that's induced automation bias. 00:47:55.405 --> 00:48:00.217 Whenever a human is working with a machine, they become complacent. 00:48:00.217 --> 00:48:05.989 Basically, it happens with pilots, it happens as we search the web, it happens in hospitals. 00:48:05.989 --> 00:48:08.573 We become complacent. 00:48:08.573 --> 00:48:12.280 We then allow the machine to do the work for us. 00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:19.671 I think I see very many

signs that that's happening with AI It'll do the work for us so we can just kind of go asleep at the wheel. 00:48:19.671 --> 00:48:31.630 In fact, many, many accidents with self-driving cars are because the human in the beta test, who was supposed to be there alert and ready, basically just was watching a movie or something like that. 00:48:31.630 --> 00:48:36.028 They just abdicated all responsibility to a machine that wasn't ready for it. 00:48:36.330 --> 00:48:38.915 I think that's one really important trend to watch. 00:48:38.915 --> 00:48:58.514 It's also really fascinating and I do write about this to understand that AI has traditionally been founded and created on a very narrow definition of intelligence the rationalist Western idea that an intelligent being achieves one's goals. 00:48:58.514 --> 00:49:04.307 As you can see from that brief definition, it means process goes out the window. 00:49:04.307 --> 00:49:32.645 It means AI is built to do something with the leading minds in AI, to redefine AI, basically to make the robots and models more unsure of their goals. 00:49:32.645 --> 00:49:39.959 So if you tell your housekeeper robot to fetch coffee down the street, traditional AI will just do it. 00:49:40.085 --> 00:49:52.769 They might plow down someone, they might go the fastest route to get the most expensive copy and unsure robot and I tested one at the Virginia Tech and it was fascinating will actually be teachable. 00:49:52.769 --> 00:50:04.160 They'll ask you questions, they'll show you multiple scenarios and they're seen as more smart and as more cooperative by humans who are testing them. 00:50:04.160 --> 00:50:06.493 So there's a trend to watch for us. 00:50:06.493 --> 00:50:21.932 I think the bottom line is uncertainty, with its capacity to help us be engaged and wakeful and also its provision of this space of possibilities by allowing us to slow down. 00:50:21.932 --> 00:50:43.439 Uncertainty really equips us to be in control in fluid and flexible ways, to be nimble, and that's where we need to be if we're going to be cooperating with, working, with collaborating with ultra, ultra smart machines and also, I'm sure, ai is our best hope. 00:50:43.439 --> 00:50:50.878 Many people think for having AI be stoppable instead of going completely out of control. 00:50:51.405 --> 00:51:02.373 That would be the other uncertainty thing that's lingering in our head, right Not to get too existential Right, right it might come for us seriously. 00:51:02.373 --> 00:51:04.537 So this has been a fascinating conversation. 00:51:04.537 --> 00:51:05.459 I loved reading the book. 00:51:05.459 --> 00:51:10.372 I just have the last couple of questions, which is do you have any resources you want to share with the audience today? 00:51:10.372 --> 00:51:12.371 And then, how can people learn more about you? 00:51:13.073 --> 00:51:16.175 Sure, and I think I can answer two questions in one. 00:51:16.175 --> 00:51:20.653 I would go send people to my website, maggie-jacksoncom. 00:51:20.653 --> 00:51:32.570 Just Google Maggie Jackson, un uncertain or my previous book distracted, you'll find me and you'll find a lot of resources there many, many articles, podcasts, interviews and some granular things. 00:51:32.570 --> 00:51:49.792 I'm just about to post a quiz on readers guide, quiz developed as a by the next big idea club Club and on the website, and so you'll find a lot of resources to help you learn about uncertainty and then harness it and navigate it well in your own life. 00:51:50.935 --> 00:51:52.078 Awesome, this has been great. 00:51:52.078 --> 00:51:53.569 Thank you so much for being on the show. 00:51:53.569 --> 00:51:55.213 Thank you, my pleasure. 00:51:55.213 --> 00:51:57.057 Thanks so much for listening. 00:51:57.057 --> 00:52:06.840 To find out more about the podcast and what we're up to, go to digitalmarketingvictoriescom and, if you like what you heard, subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:09.828 Rate us, comment and share the podcast please. 00:52:09.828 --> 00:52:13.816 I'm always looking for new ideas, topics and guests. 00:52:13.816 --> 00:52:19.421 Email us at digitalmarketingvictories at gmailcom or DM us on Twitter at DM victories. 00:52:19.421 --> 00:52:20.565 Thanks for listening.