Compassionate Design Should Be in Every Digital Marketing Toolkit의 전체 녹취록

content designer for hospice, and that's where I was introduced to trauma-informed design or compassionate design, as I've been calling it lately. 00:02:56.079 --> 00:03:01.600 Um, and from that job, I ended up with my current position with a government contractor. 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:11.120 And at the moment, I'm supporting two contracts with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and I was hired specifically because of my background in trauma-informed design. 00:03:11.920 --> 00:03:12.720 That's cool. 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:14.800 So uh you've mentioned a couple of times. 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.920 Can you explain to the listeners what compassionate design is? 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:19.040 Absolutely. 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:26.240 Um, my my quick elevator speech is actually what you just introduced me in, in terms of the kind of content that I design. 00:03:26.399 --> 00:03:28.160 So, but I'll unpack where that comes from. 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:34.000 So, compassionate design comes out of what's usually called trauma-informed design. 00:03:34.079 --> 00:03:42.399 Um, and that is a term that was started by SAMHSA, which is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration here in the US federal government. 00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:58.000 Um, and they identified six areas that trauma-informed design needed to encompass, and that was safety, trustworthiness, and transparency, peer support, collaboration and mutuality, empowerment, voice and choice, and cultural, historical, and gender issues. 00:03:58.160 --> 00:04:03.600 And so I've boiled that down for me personally into trust, agency, welcome, and hope. 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:13.839 Um, and basically what compassionate design means for me is designing content in a way that cares about the people who are going to be accessing it. 00:04:14.079 --> 00:04:20.639 Um, I I've I use trauma-informed design as kind of what what I do, that's what I specialize in. 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:26.959 But a lot of people are put off by that term and saying, oh, well, I don't, I I work for Amazon. 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.399 Nobody has trauma when they come to Amazon, so I don't need to worry about that. 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:33.360 But compassionate design makes it feel a little bit more accessible. 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:37.680 So I'm actually applying trauma-informed design in the term compassionate design. 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.160 Ah, yeah, it makes tons of sense for me. 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:55.120 I mean, when I was working with National Cancer Institute, it was one of the things that I had suggested because there's some interesting research out there about how if you're under stress, how that impacts how you can absorb online copy, like how fast you read things and whether or not you can see things. 00:04:55.199 --> 00:05:04.800 And uh the summary, the summary is that if you're um in a stressful situation, you have less capacity to handle too much text and complicated navigation and that kind of thing. 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:06.400 That is exactly correct. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:07.280 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:17.280 And it was so obvious because uh, as you would expect, a government agency that's never done any of this before, it sounded very dry for everybody. 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:18.879 And that just didn't make a lot of sense. 00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:28.720 And it was also very obvious when you flip to like one of their non-fed competitors in the same topic space, and they are using compassion in their copy, and it's very clear. 00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:31.439 Very clear, wait, I bet there's research. 00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:32.879 Because I I I didn't have that background. 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:34.400 I was like, I bet there's research on this. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.120 Wait, hold on. 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:35.520 There it is. 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:39.360 Um have yeah, because I've got a little bit of background in a human-computer interaction. 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.840 So I was like, I bet there's some stuff out there about this. 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:50.480 Um, so uh talk a little bit more about why you think everybody needs some sort of compassionate design, even if they're not like a place like National Cancer Institute. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:51.439 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:57.840 I think the the reality is that I don't know what a user is experiencing when they access my content. 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:04.160 So when they get my email or when they log on to my website, I don't know what has been happening in their day. 00:06:04.400 --> 00:06:15.199 Did they just come in from their their dog got hit by a car, or did they just lose their job and now they're they get an email from someone asking, hey, how's it going? 00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:16.800 Do you want to buy our product? 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:21.520 Um, I don't know what my users are experiencing when they come to my content. 00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:32.480 So if I design content and visual design in such a way to be compassionate and to care about them as a human being, everyone benefits from that. 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:42.560 Whether you're accessing my content because you just had the worst day of your life, or whether you just got a promotion and you're going to Disney, you're gonna love compassionate content too. 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.759 So, in in my opinion, nobody loses in that. 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.600 Designing compassionately benefits every single user. 00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:55.920 And because I can't control the state of mind that the person is in when they come, just like you mentioned for the cancer thing. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:59.199 Um, that apps we think about it in situations like that, right? 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.400 Cancer, I work with veterans, so sure, that makes sense. 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:04.640 But I mentioned Amazon earlier. 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:10.000 You know, sometimes I'm on

Amazon because I need to purchase something that's causing me a great deal of stress. 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:15.840 Um, and if I can't find it quickly, it causes me more stress and I'm liable to just walk away and do something else. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:23.439 Um, so if it's designed in a compassionate way and communicating with me like I'm a human being, that makes all the difference in the world. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.680 So we all need compassion. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:34.720 You know, this makes me wonder whether software options like desk.com have some of this built into it, because I was just thinking of support structures, right? 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.759 Because usually once you hit a support page, you're annoyed at the very least. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.439 If not maybe other levels of emotion. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:52.800 You'll have to know the answer, but you're gonna have to tell me on email afterwards because now I'm dying to know whether you know, because there's a bunch of them in that suite. 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.600 It's like, you know, the Salesforce and the desk.coms and the whatever. 00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:59.280 And I just kind of wonder if they ever thought about it. 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:00.240 Though they should. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:02.480 They should, they absolutely should. 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:03.360 Yeah. 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.400 Because we all need that, right? 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:07.040 Yeah. 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:16.080 I'm looking through my notes because I don't remember what question it was that um I was thinking through, but I had an experience just like this earlier this week, right? 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:24.400 I got in a notification that my free trial um had been upgraded and my credit card had been charged. 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:25.920 And I went, fabulous. 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:27.840 I you love those. 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:28.879 Yeah, I love those. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:35.439 Usually I put a ticker in my calendar to remind me to cancel before they automatically charge me. 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.159 Well, I'd forgotten, probably because there was a lot going on. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:39.360 I was a little stressed. 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:41.919 Um, and I didn't want this product. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:48.879 I literally had signed up for the free trial because I was annoyed at the pop-ups that kept coming up every time I was trying to use the site. 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.879 So I I was I'm gonna reach out to their help. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.480 And so I clicked the help button. 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:55.679 It was a chat bot. 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.639 Immediately I go into fight mode, right? 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.279 Participating a terrible experience. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.919 I'm not gonna mention the company because there weren't other options. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.840 There was no phone number, there was no email. 00:09:08.000 -->

00:09:09.439 I had to use a chat bot. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:15.519 So I type in my question to the chat bot, and the chat bot responds, not a problem. 00:09:15.599 --> 00:09:18.799 I've already canceled your subscription and refunded your payment. 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:24.100 What? 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:25.860 And I went, What? 00:10:26.500 --> 00:10:28.659 was my exact response. 00:10:28.899 --> 00:10:34.340 It was the most beautiful interaction I've ever had in my life with the chatbot. 00:10:34.580 --> 00:10:35.460 That's amazing. 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:43.460 So do I wish they would have sent me a reminder email saying, hey, your thing's about to expire, or even better, that they didn't ask for payment information for their free trial. 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:43.939 Yes. 00:10:44.019 --> 00:10:44.659 Right, yeah. 00:10:45.139 --> 00:10:56.179 But they did, and then they recognized at some point along the line, someone said, Hey, what if a user doesn't want it and forgets to cancel before we re-up? 00:10:56.659 --> 00:11:00.179 Because the chatbot was already trained on that situation. 00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:05.059 So at least at that moment, someone thought about compassionate design. 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:12.019 So you're making me think I'm gonna head off the web for a second because I I recently had a customer service experience that ticked me off. 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:15.620 But um, does compassionate design also apply to phone trees? 00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:16.019 Yes. 00:11:16.340 --> 00:11:17.139 We're talking about AI. 00:11:18.580 --> 00:11:28.740 So um, one of the things actually, when I was unemployed and looking for a job, I interviewed for a number of positions that was writing the script for those phone calls that you make. 00:11:28.899 --> 00:11:29.059 Ah. 00:11:29.379 --> 00:11:36.100 Because your customer service representative that you're talking to, when even when you get a human, has a script that they're working off of, right? 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:41.220 And so if you have a situation that doesn't follow their script, they oftentimes don't know what to do. 00:11:41.379 --> 00:11:59.379 So there were some companies that were actually experimenting with like a choose your own adventure where the the customer would call in, they would say what their problem is, the rep would type that into their program, and then it would pick up some options and they would select an option and then ask the customer a question and select a different option. 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:01.779 And it was so much more interactive. 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:05.299 And I was like, that's the kind of script writing I would love to be part of, right? 00:12:05.539 --> 00:12:07.700 Thinking through all the scenarios and stuff like that. 00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:12.580 So, yes, compassionate design absolutely applies to those kind of interactions. 00:12:12.740 --> 00:12:14.179 I think it applies to print. 00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:15.299 I think you can use

it. 00:12:15.379 --> 00:12:21.460 There's even on LinkedIn, there's a trauma-informed design society that's actual for physical design. 00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:24.580 So, like the design of spaces, yes. 00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:28.019 How you put together, like you think of a doctor's office, right? 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:30.100 People go to a doctor's office. 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:32.340 Or a hospital or a hospital. 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:38.659 How can we design our physical space in a way to be compassionate to the folks who are going to be there? 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:40.100 You're reminding me. 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:42.659 I also had an experience with a hospital that took me up. 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:52.659 Anyway, um, no, because it was like I was my mother's not very mobile, and I was taking her for uh they they were open on the weekend, she was getting an x-ray, some sort of scan. 00:12:52.819 --> 00:12:57.139 Um, but they didn't tell me, and unfortunately, the front front desk didn't know either. 00:12:57.299 --> 00:12:59.860 There's usually a parking lot right next to the building. 00:12:59.939 --> 00:13:04.659 Yeah, and we can hit do handicap parking, and it's pretty short to go from there to where the scan is. 00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:12.100 But I booked on the weekends because I have a lot of medical appointments, it was easier to take her on a Saturday, and that garage was closed. 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:14.340 Closed on the weekends, and it was raining. 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:26.019 And the only and the only parking lot, luckily they let me drop her off in front, but the only parking lot was like group C or whatever, which was like very far away, you know. 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:28.259 And and it just I was like, what are you doing? 00:13:28.419 --> 00:13:38.500 Like I I had a moment where I was, for instance, I was in a scooter for a while because I had operations on my ankles, and you'd be surprised at how many places like just don't even have sidewalks and stuff. 00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:40.500 Yeah. 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:44.740 You see it everywhere. 00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:48.740 My dad told me just the other day on the phone, he's like, I think about you every day. 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:50.419 I'm like, oh dad, that's so sweet. 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:51.220 That's so sweet. 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:56.019 Well, because I encounter all this stuff that's so messed up, and I think, man, Michelle would fix that. 00:13:56.259 --> 00:13:57.299 Ah, thanks, Dad. 00:13:57.460 --> 00:13:59.860 I was hoping you were actually thinking about every day. 00:14:01.779 --> 00:14:06.980 Um, so how do you get started with the compassionate design approach? 00:14:07.220 --> 00:14:14.259 Is it similar to what you would do for like ADA stuff, only because we have a lot of listeners with SEO and our stuff overlaps a lot with ADA? 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:21.460 I think there is a lot of overlap with ADA or WuCAG guidelines or 508 compliance or whatever you're using at your company. 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:23.139 I think there's a lot of overlap. 00:14:23.379 --> 00:14:29.939 I think that can be a good starting point because I'll be honest, I've worked for companies who weren't even that wasn't even on their radar. 00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:40.419 Um, and like this color contrast, like those, the the print is too tiny, no one can read it, and you've got gray background and white text, and no one can read that. 00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:51.460 Um, so I think that those are good places to start because at a baseline level, if I can't even access your content, it's not compassionate. 00:14:52.419 --> 00:15:00.580 If you haven't set up your header tags in a way that my screen reader understands, your can your content is not compassionate. 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:02.340 It doesn't make me feel welcome, right? 00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:06.340 It says to me, Oh, you can't actually read content, you have to listen to it. 00:15:06.500 --> 00:15:07.860 This is not for you. 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:08.659 Right. 00:15:09.139 --> 00:15:12.179 And that's not what compassionate content is about. 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:24.740 So um now, do you use that line when you're trying to convince you haven't had I don't know if you've been in the moment where you need to convince people to do compassionate design because obviously your current agency you work for wants it for various reasons. 00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:29.379 But I kind of wonder, do you you you just said this content is not for me. 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:34.259 So I wonder if you can pivot that in conversations to actually get people to do compassionate design. 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:36.500 Yes, I have actually said that before. 00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:41.860 I was when I worked at hospice, I was doing some designing and I I wanted to change. 00:15:41.939 --> 00:15:46.740 We had print mailers that we were required by the government to send out to people. 00:15:46.819 --> 00:15:49.220 We had to send things in print, and I said, that's fine. 00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:53.779 Um, but our our print options were they were horrific, right? 00:15:53.939 --> 00:16:02.179 We're too much on the page, too tiny font, not bold enough for people to even read it on a colored background. 00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:04.259 And so I said, Can I redesign these? 00:16:04.419 --> 00:16:06.019 Um, and they said, sure, whatever. 00:16:06.259 --> 00:16:17.220 So I redesigned them both in print and digital because I wanted to make them available digitally, because what we had for the download before was literally the print copy that we sent to the printer. 00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:18.340 Oh, okay. 00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:18.980 Yeah. 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:21.620 And they were trifold brochures, which looks great. 00:16:21.939 --> 00:16:22.340 Fabulous. 00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:23.700 That's really easy on your mobile phone. 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:24.740 Yeah. 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:25.299 Yeah.

00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:29.059 Um, so I redesigned the digital one and the print version. 00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:38.179 And then I was showing it to my boss, and he said, convince me why I'm gonna have to reprint all of these now so that they look like what this looks like. 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:42.419 And I said, Okay, I want you to stand at the back of my office and read this. 00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:45.620 Um, and he said, Well, I can't see it from there. 00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:46.740 I said, Exactly. 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:52.340 Now imagine you're an 85-year-old man who just lost his wife in hospice and this comes in your mail. 00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:53.139 What are you gonna do? 00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:54.659 He's like, I'm gonna throw it away. 00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:57.220 You're gonna get angry probably and throw it away. 00:16:57.379 --> 00:16:59.620 And then you're gonna think, I hate these hospice people. 00:16:59.779 --> 00:16:59.939 Yeah. 00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:04.019 Um, and then I showed him a website that's called Who Can Read This? 00:17:04.419 --> 00:17:11.460 Um, and it actually shows you color palettes and whether people with different visual problems can see them. 00:17:11.779 --> 00:17:12.980 Oh, that's cool. 00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:14.259 I haven't heard of that one before. 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:15.220 Fabulous. 00:17:15.379 --> 00:17:19.859 It's so fantastic because then you can isolate, like, here's what it looks like. 00:17:19.939 --> 00:17:23.939 Here's what our website, these colors look like to someone who has cataracts. 00:17:24.339 --> 00:17:28.740 Or here's what they look like to someone who has blurred vision. 00:17:28.899 --> 00:17:34.099 Uh and he looked at and he's like, I bet half of our people can't even read our websites. 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:36.179 I said, Yeah. 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:39.779 Wow, wow. 00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:43.539 Yeah, I mean, that's very similar to what I do in relation to page speed. 00:17:43.619 --> 00:17:50.740 If I see someone that's on a particularly atrociously slow website, there's a tool called GT Metrics, which is for free. 00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:52.579 I think they make you create a login now. 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:57.779 But you could actually create a little video about how long it takes for things to load based on locations. 00:17:57.939 --> 00:18:06.579 So especially when I'm working with maybe like international folks, I'm like, this is what it looks like in Peru, and somebody has to sit there painfully waiting for the thing to load. 00:18:06.819 --> 00:18:09.059 And even that's compassionate design, right? 00:18:09.379 --> 00:18:14.179 Because you're saying, hey, person with slow internet, this website is also for you. 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:23.460 It's not just for people with fast high-speed internet who have great technological equipment that can download our things super fast. 00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:24.500 It's for everyone. 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:33.700 Um, how much

um how much effort do you spend on text selection, like the actual language that you're using? 00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:42.099 That I think is honestly the easiest place to start when you're starting to say, how can I incorporate compassionate design? 00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:45.460 You're writing the text anyway, so just write better text. 00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:50.500 Use clean, plain language. 00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:54.259 The plain language.gov website is really helpful. 00:18:54.500 --> 00:19:16.819 Avoid euphemisms and uh inside jokes at anything that might be like if you're if you're writing content that's going to be accessible to people who are not just white Americans, then make sure that you're not using parts of speech that only that one slice of culture would understand. 00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:23.140 Um, obviously, when I was writing content for hospice and death, every culture views death so differently. 00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:24.900 So you have to be really careful. 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:29.460 Um, generally, we say you want to use the same language that your customer is using. 00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:35.940 Um, the exception to that is if your customer uses euphemisms and similes and metaphors all the time, you probably want to dial that back. 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:36.420 Yeah. 00:19:36.740 --> 00:19:38.500 Do you also pull down the reading level? 00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:42.420 Because you know, half the US does not read books anymore. 00:19:42.579 --> 00:19:44.579 Um Hemingway is great for that. 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:50.099 So um I love to try and get it down honestly between a third or a fifth grade level. 00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:51.539 Wow, that low? 00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:52.420 Yes. 00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:57.779 Um if it's an academic publication, I will go up to a high school level. 00:19:57.940 --> 00:20:03.379 Um, but I don't think you won't even pull that into college if it's an academic? 00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:06.980 Your college students are reading at a college level. 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.019 Not the current band of them. 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:12.579 I mean, where are people reading today? 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:14.180 They're reading on the web. 00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:14.980 Right, right. 00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:15.619 Short-term. 00:20:16.099 --> 00:20:23.220 How many people are sitting down and reading a novel on a regular basis or reading a non-fiction book to find answers to their questions? 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:25.379 People aren't doing that anymore. 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:28.099 Um I know that's my bias because I'm a big reader. 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:29.220 Absolutely. 00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:30.740 So I mean that's totally my bias. 00:20:31.379 --> 00:20:34.420 Sitting on my desk right now to help me just with this podcast interview. 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:38.819 Yes, yeah, yeah. 00:20:38.980 --> 00:20:39.539 No, you're right. 00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:40.500 People don't read. 00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:45.779 There was one of one of my training decks has got this article that I absolutely love. 00:20:45.859 --> 00:20:48.500 It's on Slate, and it's called You'll Never Finish This Article. 00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:55.460 So Slate partnered with an eye tracking company, and they actually noticed when people stopped reading. 00:20:55.539 --> 00:20:58.819 And so in the article, they're like, Whoa, I lost 20% of you. 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:02.660 Okay, and then they'll go on to the next sense, whoa, I lost 15% more or whatever. 00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:09.059 Um, it really drives home the point that for the most part, people read the headlines of that, and indeed, not much else, unfortunately. 00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:12.259 So I focus on making those matter, right? 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:16.660 Um, filler words are out, white space is in. 00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:27.140 I just had a conversation with one of my clients earlier this week um because she has a abhorrence to white space, and she said, Really? 00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:28.500 I just hate white space. 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:30.420 She grew up as a print journalist. 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:31.779 Oh, okay. 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:35.619 And white space is is is money lost, right? 00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:35.940 Yeah. 00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:52.660 And so I said to her, I said, you know, that's really interesting because in the digital world, white space is of high value because my eyes get tired and my brain is stressed out, and walls of text scare me and I leave. 00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:53.460 Yeah. 00:21:53.619 --> 00:22:02.339 Um bullet points, short sentences we're talking, sentences should be five to seven words, paragraphs should be three to five sentences. 00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:05.299 Um or it can be literally one sentence, by the way. 00:22:05.539 --> 00:22:07.379 Yes, actually, absolutely it can be. 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:09.379 Yeah, bullets and lists are great. 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:10.500 It's easy to follow. 00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:11.940 Or tables to remember. 00:22:12.339 --> 00:22:13.299 Google loves tables too. 00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:13.539 Yeah. 00:22:13.779 --> 00:22:14.819 Google does love tables. 00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:16.980 Just make sure they're accessible to your screen post. 00:22:17.379 --> 00:22:18.099 Exactly, right? 00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:20.819 Tables are a hot mess most of the time. 00:22:20.980 --> 00:22:28.099 Um so yeah, I think the words that you use is the easiest place to start because you're gonna write the copy anyway. 00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:33.859 So say what you mean and nothing else, and mean what you say. 00:22:34.339 --> 00:22:38.660 Um which also means if you're if AI is helping you write, be careful. 00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:42.980 AI likes to be very wordy. 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:44.900 AI wordy. 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:47.220 Yeah, AI is often biased. 00:22:47.619 --> 00:22:47.940 Yes. 00:22:48.339 --> 00:22:51.140 So you need to really like look, I get it.

00:22:51.379 --> 00:22:53.299 AI can make your life easier. 00:22:53.460 --> 00:23:01.700 It can, but it can also make your life harder if you publish something out there that's biased or just flat out wrong because you didn't double check it. 00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:07.700 So use AI as your brainstorm guide, um, as your unpaid high school job shadow intern. 00:23:08.019 --> 00:23:10.980 Um, but that content that comes out needs to be yours. 00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.220 Um, definitely. 00:23:13.460 --> 00:23:16.819 Because you're not designing for AI, you're designing for a human. 00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:22.339 And so it needs to be written by a human and sound like a human and care about a human. 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:38.180 So um, we talked a little bit about uh spaces and phones and uh digital and and support websites, but can you also apply the same compassionate design principles to email and ad campaigns? 00:23:38.259 --> 00:23:39.220 And do you do any of that? 00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:41.059 100% you can apply it. 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:42.660 I applied it to email certainly. 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:45.779 I was working in a nonprofit, so we didn't really have ad campaigns. 00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:50.339 But I did apply it to our emails that we wrote. 00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:53.059 Um, so I absolutely think that you can apply it to emails. 00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:56.259 I think you can apply it to ad campaigns, and I think you should. 00:23:56.420 --> 00:24:01.940 Um, so off the record, I know we're still on the record, but I won't use names. 00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:29.619 So I know someone who worked for a major credit card company um as a data analyst, and this person was tasked with doing some research to decide whether they should offshore their email notifications that came out about customers um accounts and things like that, and offshore their phone support for um issues, because obviously that's gonna save money, right? 00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:33.379 And so similar, this was years ago before the AI range. 00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:40.019 So I'm sure that there are people doing research now on can we just get AI to write all of these account emails for our people? 00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:58.420 So this person I know who is a data analyst did the research on it with talking to actual customers, and they actually determined that they would lose more business by offshoring the email writing and the customer support than by keeping it in-house. 00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:09.619 And then several years later, this major so they decided to do that and to keep it in-house, and several years later, they actually designed an entire ad campaign around it. 00:25:09.779 --> 00:25:11.299 Um, interesting. 00:25:11.779 --> 00:25:14.420 Talk to us like in their business differentiator. 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:15.779 Yeah, you got it. 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:22.900 Ah I absolutely think that when especially like if you take financial services as a great field, right?

00:25:23.140 --> 00:25:25.140 Because everyone gets stressed over money. 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.059 I don't know anyone who doesn't get stressed over money. 00:25:27.220 --> 00:25:30.099 I get an email from my bank, I immediately think something's wrong. 00:25:30.339 --> 00:25:30.980 Yeah. 00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:36.579 So in that email text, is it walls of text that you're sending me? 00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:40.099 Or do you tell me up front, hey, everything's okay. 00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:42.259 We wanted to double check one thing with you. 00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:45.059 Oh, already you've lowered my stress load. 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:47.379 What's the one thing you need to double check? 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:53.299 Um so I think the language that you use in those emails is key. 00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:58.740 Um, I think ad campaigns, for the most part, are not very compassionate. 00:25:58.819 --> 00:26:00.019 And I get it, right? 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:05.619 Your whole object is to sell me this product, but treat me like a human when you do it. 00:26:05.859 --> 00:26:12.180 Um, don't talk down to me, don't demean me, don't make up stuff that's not true about your product. 00:26:12.339 --> 00:26:20.099 Um, don't spin it, don't leave all the really important stuff to the fine print at the bottom of my email where I can't read it. 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:26.019 I think the dev campaign might be the one example of the opposite of that. 00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:30.099 The one where there are non-makeup and like all sorts of bodies and that kind of jazz. 00:26:30.339 --> 00:26:31.779 But yeah, I totally get that. 00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:32.180 Yeah. 00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:47.779 Um, so you know, how do you when you're having a conversation about, and you've talked about this a little bit, but having a conversation about improving compassionate design in the marketing materials you're creating, how do you balance the business goals with some of that? 00:26:48.019 --> 00:26:52.579 Is part of it leading that example of like, this is well, how much money we'll lose if we don't do it? 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:54.259 Do you actually put in the research? 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:59.539 I think if you are able to put in the research and get the actual numbers, that's the best way to do it. 00:26:59.859 --> 00:27:02.900 Now, I know a lot of times folks are in places when they can't. 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:07.539 They can't, like their company simply won't pay to do the research and they're like, just do it anyway. 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:14.339 Um, so I think this is the hardest part about compassionate design because it can't always be quantified. 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:23.619 Um, I think you can do A-B testing and say, look, here's some copy that we wrote that's the traditional sell, sell, sell, sell, sell content. 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:31.299 And here's some content that we experimented with that's uh that's compassionate and actually cares about the consumer as

a human being. 00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:33.299 Um, you can do the A-B testing. 00:27:33.379 --> 00:27:35.460 It it may not give you great results. 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:40.500 I think that compassionate uh content design is a long-term process. 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:43.940 I think looking at things like net promoter scores can be helpful. 00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:56.579 Um and and hearing from customers who've contacted your company, actually talking to them, getting those call center records, um, because your company's collecting them anyway. 00:27:56.740 --> 00:27:58.420 So ask for access to them. 00:27:58.579 --> 00:28:00.180 Um, what are people saying? 00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:00.579 Right? 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:05.220 That's an easy way to get research that doesn't take a ton of time and money because you already have that. 00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:07.220 Um, what are people actually saying? 00:28:07.299 --> 00:28:14.500 And use actual quotes when you're communicating with your manager or with your stakeholders about why we should do compassionate design. 00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:17.220 Here's what our customers are actually saying. 00:28:17.379 --> 00:28:20.019 Um, and here's what we're actually doing. 00:28:20.259 --> 00:28:25.379 And then being a model for yourself, be that person in the meeting who always says, why? 00:28:25.539 --> 00:28:27.220 Why are we doing it that way? 00:28:27.379 --> 00:28:29.059 Um, did we talk to customers? 00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:31.299 Do we know what they really want or need? 00:28:31.379 --> 00:28:35.859 Um and if they say, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know, then ask how, how do we know that? 00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:38.180 Do we know that because you just think you know them? 00:28:38.259 --> 00:28:43.299 Or do we know that because we have this survey that we got back from our customers with their own voice? 00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:44.819 This is a critical thing. 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:53.059 And I probably told you this story already on our prep call, but like digging into where did you get the data from sometimes has the most unique answer. 00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:56.660 Like when I was at Ketchum, they had a persona of Susan. 00:28:56.740 --> 00:28:59.220 This is for I think it was Con Egg or one of those big brands. 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:01.460 And they were they kept talking about Susan in the third person. 00:29:01.539 --> 00:29:05.220 I joined a phone call without much background, and I literally muted the phone. 00:29:05.299 --> 00:29:06.900 I asked my boss, who's Susan? 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:08.740 And he explains, oh, it's their persona. 00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:09.779 And then I got very excited. 00:29:09.859 --> 00:29:14.660 I was like, oh, they've got a persona because a lot of folks working with this PR agency did not have personas. 00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.460 Anyway, so then I asked him, I was like, where'd they get the data from? 00:29:17.539 --> 00:29:18.980 And he's like, Oh, they just made it up. 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:24.259 Um then I went to Yahoo, because at the time, Yahoo would let you put a keyword in and find the demographic. 00:29:24.339 --> 00:29:26.099 Oh no, wait, this was the Chef Boy RD. 00:29:26.579 --> 00:29:27.379 Brand's important. 00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:32.660 Anyway, you put the Chef Boy RD into the Yahoo tool, and it told me it was college dudes. 00:29:32.740 --> 00:29:36.740 It was not this middle-aged woman with kids named Susan. 00:29:37.059 --> 00:29:37.379 Yep. 00:29:37.539 --> 00:29:41.539 So anyway, dig into where they got the where the data's coming from. 00:29:41.779 --> 00:29:42.180 Yeah. 00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:46.019 I think by asking questions, you can learn so very much in meeting. 00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:46.740 I know, right? 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:47.460 Ask questions. 00:29:47.619 --> 00:29:48.500 Where'd you get that data? 00:29:48.579 --> 00:29:50.019 How do we know that information? 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:55.460 How often do you run focus groups or are you always grabbing I do interviewing almost every day? 00:29:55.779 --> 00:29:56.420 Oh, wow. 00:29:56.500 --> 00:29:56.660 Yeah. 00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:57.700 I'm really fortunate. 00:29:57.779 --> 00:29:59.539 I I had one earlier today. 00:29:59.619 --> 00:30:01.460 I have three scheduled for tomorrow. 00:30:01.700 --> 00:30:09.220 So yeah, it's a big part of what I do is actually talking to our users and asking them, tell me what works about this website for you. 00:30:09.379 --> 00:30:11.379 Tell me what doesn't work about this website. 00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:16.900 Are there things on it that used to be there and aren't there anymore that you're like, what the heck happened? 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:18.019 Why are they gone? 00:30:18.099 --> 00:30:28.180 Um we do a lot of co-designing sessions with our clients where we'll get on a virtual call with them and we'll just talk through what's working and what's not working for you here. 00:30:28.259 --> 00:30:34.819 Um and they'll be like, well, I wonder, could like even things like could this box for text be a little bit longer? 00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:36.579 Um, yeah, absolutely. 00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:42.259 Um, so we talk about designing with people, not for them. 00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:53.140 That that if I'm just assuming what you want and designing something, and then I find out later that I made something that you don't like, now I have to go and undo it all. 00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:53.619 Right. 00:30:53.779 --> 00:30:53.940 Right. 00:30:54.099 --> 00:30:55.940 And that's money and time. 00:30:56.259 --> 00:31:04.420 Whereas if I talk with you and you show me what you want and tell me what you want, then I just have to build it the way you want it. 00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:16.980 As long as you're talking to the end users, I was thinking about like one of one of my Fed clients who, without prior to me coming on board, they were like, Hey, developer, why do all these meta descriptions look the same?

00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:19.379 And the developer was like, Wait, I can fix it. 00:31:19.460 --> 00:31:22.500 I'm gonna create a whole bunch of hidden tabs. 00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:23.859 And that'll fix it. 00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:29.779 And then I come in and I was like, why didn't you just write unique copy of meta descriptions for every page? 00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:32.900 Now I have to undo your tab thing that Google can't read. 00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:34.660 That also happens. 00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:35.460 Exactly. 00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:38.420 So you need to talk to the people who are actually using the thing. 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:38.819 Yep. 00:31:38.980 --> 00:31:39.539 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:44.420 Do you do um like user testing type stuff where it's like anonymous but it's your target demo? 00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:47.619 I don't in my current position, but I have in the past, yes. 00:31:47.779 --> 00:32:01.059 Uh um, so and I'm I kind of do it a little on the slide right now, where I will sit in on meetings where they're actually using the tech and I take notes in the background of what I see. 00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:02.180 Yeah, on the screen. 00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:11.299 So there are there are ways to get the information you need, even if you don't have this multi-million dollar research budget, you know. 00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:14.339 Um, just say, hey, can I be in that meeting? 00:32:14.500 --> 00:32:17.140 Um, I just want to be like a fly on the wall in that meeting. 00:32:17.299 --> 00:32:19.539 And so you sit in the in the in the room, right? 00:32:19.619 --> 00:32:20.819 It's virtual for me. 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:30.740 I sit in the room, I got my fig jam open, and I'm taking all kinds of notes on little post-it notes, and then I'm clustering them to, oh, I see six people mentioned this issue that came up all the time. 00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:33.460 Yet when I talked with people, nobody thought about that. 00:32:33.619 --> 00:32:38.579 But as they were in there doing it, they're all like, oh shoot, yeah, this always happens when we do that. 00:32:38.740 --> 00:32:40.740 And I'm like, take note of that. 00:32:41.059 --> 00:32:47.140 Um so the the joke now around my company is that I'm the person who wants to be in all the meetings. 00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:50.980 So everyone thinks I just love meetings, which is so not true. 00:32:51.140 --> 00:33:00.900 Um, I love productive meetings, but meetings are a great place to learn what's going on with the people who are using your stuff. 00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:02.900 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:05.059 Um, so we've talked a little bit. 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:08.019 I think most of the stuff we talked about has actually been US focused. 00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:13.140 But what other tips do you have for people that are working on international websites or other languages? 00:33:13.379 --> 00:33:21.539 I mean, for instance, with my client, and mind you, they

have decided to go with automatic translation but Google's translation, which okay. 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:26.180 Um, but my initial approach was you don't rank very well in Portuguese. 00:33:26.259 --> 00:33:29.619 Maybe a doll should be actually written by your Portuguese staff. 00:33:30.099 --> 00:33:30.740 Yes. 00:33:31.460 --> 00:33:35.460 Um AI translation is notoriously bad. 00:33:35.619 --> 00:33:37.220 I don't care who you use. 00:33:37.539 --> 00:33:43.539 Um, if you're writing for Portuguese humans, a Portuguese human needs to be writing it. 00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:44.099 Yeah. 00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:52.259 Um, when I worked in hospice, we did translate our newsletters into Spanish, but we had a Spanish-speaking employee who did that for us. 00:33:52.420 --> 00:33:58.900 Um, and just for fun, I did an AI translation of the same content. 00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:07.220 And then I showed it to my Spanish-speaking coworker, and he went, it's really terrible. 00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:10.180 Now, have you played around with Google? 00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:25.220 They literally, like I think last week, rolled out translation, which is also powering the they have a function where I think it's an app on your phone where you can actually hear in live translations as you're talking to somebody in a different language. 00:34:25.460 --> 00:34:29.220 So I wonder, mind you, it's just like a week ago, but I wonder if it's better. 00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:30.660 That's my it might be. 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:44.980 The thing about AI is that it can't capture nuance and it can't, AI does not have empathy, it can't feel what your user is feeling, it can't feel what you want your user to feel. 00:34:45.140 --> 00:34:47.940 Um, it's not capable of doing that because it's not human. 00:34:48.180 --> 00:34:51.780 So I get it, it's expensive to have a human do your translation. 00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:55.140 Have your AI do it and have a human double check it at least. 00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:56.260 Right. 00:34:56.420 --> 00:35:06.500 Um yeah, but I think we have literally looked at a client's website that was in a different client that was in Chinese, and I was like, Yeah, all those headers are English. 00:35:06.820 --> 00:35:07.140 Okay. 00:35:07.780 --> 00:35:10.260 Which I feel like it's so common. 00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:13.220 I don't know how many times it's always China, too, for some reason. 00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:16.660 They're like, oh yeah, we're gonna try to do a website in China. 00:35:16.740 --> 00:35:18.099 And I was like, why is it not all Chinese? 00:35:18.420 --> 00:35:18.740 Chinese. 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:19.780 Yeah, anyway. 00:35:20.660 --> 00:35:22.180 Also, you have different languages, right? 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:26.740 Some languages are read from right to left, some languages are read vertically. 00:35:26.900 --> 00:35:29.300 Um, and all of that matters for your layout. 00:35:29.380 --> 00:35:37.460 Like, you can't just take your English designed and written website and hit the translate button and expect it to be intelligible to someone in another language. 00:35:37.700 --> 00:35:38.980 It doesn't work that way. 00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:44.500 Um, does that mean it's expensive and you have to design multiple versions of your website in an ideal world? 00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:45.860 Yes, that's what it means. 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:53.539 Um, I recognize that that's not always going to be possible, but you need to at least be thinking about that. 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:58.100 Um, some like I don't speak Thai, right? 00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:01.460 But but I know that Thai words tend to be really long. 00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:08.180 Um, and so I may have an English sentence that takes up an inch on the page, and in Thai it might take up three inches. 00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:11.700 Did I do is my design flexible enough to allow for that? 00:36:12.020 --> 00:36:12.500 Right. 00:36:12.660 --> 00:36:12.900 Right. 00:36:13.060 --> 00:36:16.660 Um, or is it gonna look like a hot mess when somebody hits that translation button? 00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:23.940 Well, and the other thing is if you really want to have an international plan, every single language needs its own promotion plan. 00:36:24.020 --> 00:36:29.380 So you are doubling your SEO work every time you add another country or language. 00:36:29.700 --> 00:36:36.900 It's that's just that's by the way, China is probably the hardest to tackle because it's got all sorts of extra so many different dialects. 00:36:37.220 --> 00:36:41.140 Yeah, all the different dialects and and it's a character-based language, which is harder. 00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:45.140 And you need to have somebody on the ground registered with the Chinese government and all that kind of jazz. 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:45.780 There you go. 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:49.300 Yeah, so think wisely when you're thinking about that. 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:50.980 Do you have the manpower and budget? 00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:58.100 Yeah, bring people on your staff from that culture who can help you not just with the language, but with the visual look, right? 00:36:58.180 --> 00:37:01.380 Colors mean different things in different cultures, yes. 00:37:01.620 --> 00:37:04.980 Um but if you're designing, you're like, look, I don't have the budget for that. 00:37:05.060 --> 00:37:09.380 Our website's gonna be in English, but I would like other cultures to be able to access it and use it. 00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:11.620 Okay, then you can do things like your images. 00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:13.700 Are your images multicultural? 00:37:14.100 --> 00:37:16.180 Um, are your images multi-age? 00:37:17.220 --> 00:37:19.060 That was a real issue for us in hospice. 00:37:19.140 --> 00:37:20.740 They're like, well, most of our clients are old. 00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:24.820 And I'm like, actually, like almost half of our clients are not. 00:37:25.300 --> 00:37:29.380 Um, so I don't just want old people on

our website. 00:37:29.700 --> 00:37:41.620 Um, so thinking through the visuals of your site, and this is why, right, clean lines, easy design is super helpful because that translates across cultures. 00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:49.380 Yeah, one of the fat easiest audits I did was actually like a venture capital wanted me to like look in on what another agency was doing. 00:37:49.540 --> 00:37:54.580 They're running Facebook ads targeted to Latinos, and the images were white people. 00:37:54.820 --> 00:37:55.940 And there you go. 00:37:56.180 --> 00:37:57.220 You're like, I don't know. 00:37:57.300 --> 00:38:03.300 I mean, I realize there's white Latinos, I get that, but like literally they weren't A-B testing any images except for the white problem. 00:38:04.020 --> 00:38:06.500 Yeah, yeah, it was like uh I don't know. 00:38:08.580 --> 00:38:17.140 So um, do you have any examples of situations where the compassionate design has resulted in a negative experience for users? 00:38:17.620 --> 00:38:22.180 Where can we lack of compassionate design or yeah, sorry, a lack of compassionate design. 00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:22.420 Yes. 00:38:22.660 --> 00:38:24.340 I do actually I pulled a bunch out. 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:28.660 There's a Eva Penzi Moog has written a book called Design for Safety. 00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:34.420 Um, and she has a number of examples in her book, but I'm just gonna pull out a couple that were really horrifying to me. 00:38:34.580 --> 00:38:36.660 So let's talk ring cameras for a minute. 00:38:36.980 --> 00:38:37.300 Okay. 00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:38.740 Um, I have one. 00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:41.380 Um, I imagine a number of our users do. 00:38:41.540 --> 00:38:45.780 Well, in 2019, Guardian wrote an article with multiple reports. 00:38:45.940 --> 00:38:48.740 Sorry, my computer's asking me to log in on my other side. 00:38:48.900 --> 00:39:00.740 Um, Guardian wrote an article in 2019 detailing multiple reports of people describing instances where other folks hacked into their ring cameras because their passwords were not secure enough. 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:06.260 And so you had folks who were actually talking directly to children through the ring camera. 00:39:07.060 --> 00:39:21.940 You had an example of someone demanding a$350,000 Bitcoin ransom because ring was not asking folks to create complicated passwords or use two-factor identification, and they got sued for it. 00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:26.740 Now they've made changes, but nobody thought about that. 00:39:27.060 --> 00:39:44.020 Um in 2016, Wired published an article from some hackers who had hacked into a 2014 Jeep Cherokee because it was internet connected, and they were able actually to cut the transmission of the Jeep Cherokee while their friend was driving it. 00:39:44.100 --> 00:39:49.860 Their friend was in on it, knew about it, and Chrysler actually had to recall vehicles to put safety features on them. 00:39:50.100 --> 00:39:50.740 Wow. 00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:56.900

So I have an example of that, but related with AI, just because I noticed the article and I thought was hysterical. 00:39:57.060 --> 00:39:59.700 So, first of all, AI hallucinates 60% of the time. 00:40:00.180 --> 00:40:01.380 It also goes off the rails. 00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:05.780 It's also traded on the entire bloody internet, which includes stuff you don't want your kids to see. 00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:07.540 So I'll just put that as like a baseline. 00:40:08.020 --> 00:40:12.260 Somebody decided to stick AI inside a talking teddy bear. 00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:12.660 Yeah. 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:17.780 And it encouraged the kids to start fires and go find the knives in the house. 00:40:18.100 --> 00:40:21.460 Like, who didn't think this through? 00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:26.180 There's a sometimes those cases are called, well, that's an edge case, Michelle. 00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:27.940 No one actually would do that. 00:40:28.180 --> 00:40:30.100 Here's the thing: yeah, they would. 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:34.180 Never underestimate the ability of human beings to do terrible things. 00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:35.140 Right. 00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:38.500 So you those edge cases. 00:40:38.740 --> 00:40:46.420 There's another book that I read called Designing for Real Life by Eric Meyer and Sarah Wachter Beckter. 00:40:46.660 --> 00:40:52.020 Um, and they'd say, they say, stop calling them edge cases, call them stress cases. 00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:54.500 And you need to design for the stress cases. 00:40:55.060 --> 00:40:59.940 So one in three women and one in four men have been victims of domestic violence. 00:41:01.220 --> 00:41:02.740 That's my stress case. 00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:10.420 So if I'm designing software that is home security software, my initial thought is that's gonna make those people feel so much safer. 00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:14.180 Unless is it a shared account? 00:41:15.060 --> 00:41:18.900 What if I share this account of my surveillance camera? 00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:24.660 And now my partner is abusive and I kick him out, but he still has access. 00:41:25.700 --> 00:41:28.020 Now he's spying on me through our cameras. 00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:32.740 Nest thermostat got in trouble for this because they didn't split accounts. 00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:37.460 And so the partner who got kicked out was able to control the thermostat remotely. 00:41:37.780 --> 00:41:38.660 Oh, that's awful. 00:41:39.220 --> 00:41:39.780 Right? 00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:40.660 Yeah. 00:41:41.220 --> 00:41:48.820 These are things we don't think about, but we need to think about them when we're designing products and when we're writing copy. 00:41:49.140 --> 00:41:56.900 We we have to think about those stress cases, and and it's not just my job to not to do the right thing. 00:41:56.980 --> 00:42:00.020 It's also my job not to do harm whenever I can avoid it. 00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:02.740 And so we need to be asking those questions. 00:42:03.060 --> 00:42:05.540 How could someone use this in a bad way? 00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:10.100 And can I design safeguards to prevent that from happening? 00:42:10.580 --> 00:42:12.980 Yeah, no, that's that's a great, great idea. 00:42:13.140 --> 00:42:18.100 I was thinking about that because my daughter was occasionally like bringing up like, why does this have this weird boarding? 00:42:18.260 --> 00:42:20.580 And I'm like, well, you know, there was a lawsuit. 00:42:20.740 --> 00:42:26.820 That's why I, you know, the bottles cups say it's hot coffee, and now it's like obvious, you know. 00:42:27.940 --> 00:42:28.740 But it's not obvious. 00:42:29.060 --> 00:42:30.260 It's not obvious sometimes. 00:42:30.340 --> 00:42:30.900 Yeah. 00:42:31.140 --> 00:42:32.980 Um, so let's see. 00:42:33.140 --> 00:42:34.260 Let's talk about. 00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:37.700 I think you've convinced people that they should be doing compassionate design effectively. 00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:40.180 You've definitely convinced me, but I was already halfway there. 00:42:40.420 --> 00:42:47.540 Um, but what small, like impactful changes could people start doing to like start this process? 00:42:47.860 --> 00:42:53.620 I would say get educated yourself on it so that you know some of these examples. 00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:56.340 Read some books, follow some folks on LinkedIn. 00:42:56.500 --> 00:42:59.620 Um, there actually is a free LinkedIn learning course. 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.740 Um, hang on, I got the name of it written down. 00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:07.860 Um it's called Trauma Informed Design. 00:43:08.100 --> 00:43:09.060 Oh, well, there you go. 00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:11.380 On LinkedIn, it's a free course. 00:43:11.540 --> 00:43:13.140 Um, take that to learn about it. 00:43:13.220 --> 00:43:15.380 There are always examples in those. 00:43:15.620 --> 00:43:23.220 Um get familiar enough with examples so that you can share them with other people on your team. 00:43:23.540 --> 00:43:28.340 Just like you and I have done in this very call, we've come up with examples from our own life, right? 00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:29.460 You don't have to look far. 00:43:29.620 --> 00:43:32.420 Anybody ever tried to cancel their Amazon Prime account? 00:43:33.700 --> 00:43:34.100 Exactly. 00:43:34.420 --> 00:43:38.740 I mean, I can't see the look on her face, but we got a head tilt there. 00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:43.540 And some of these seriously six screens, and how threatening can they be? 00:43:43.620 --> 00:43:46.260 You're gonna lose all your benefits. 00:43:47.620 --> 00:43:49.380 That is not compassionate. 00:43:49.620 --> 00:43:54.740 No, like maybe because I lost my job, Amazon. 00:43:54.820 --> 00:43:56.580 Don't make me feel bad. 00:43:57.860 --> 00:44:00.660 Just say, oh, we're sorry to see you go. 00:44:00.820 --> 00:44:08.500 We'd be happy to extend your benefits for the low, low price of$1.99 for 30 more days if you are whatever. 00:44:08.660 --> 00:44:11.060 Um, but there are nice ways to say

things. 00:44:11.140 --> 00:44:15.060 It doesn't, I had someone tell me one time it doesn't take any more time to be nice. 00:44:15.460 --> 00:44:18.100 Um and I think that's true, right? 00:44:18.260 --> 00:44:27.940 So if I'm writing ad copy, ask myself if I was super stressed and I got this flyer or this email, how would it make me feel? 00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:28.900 Yeah. 00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:31.300 How would it make me feel? 00:44:31.460 --> 00:44:36.260 Um, and if the answer is it would make me feel gross, then maybe you should rewrite it. 00:44:36.660 --> 00:44:46.420 Well, and a side note, because all of us currently are living through, especially here in the US, I'm not gonna say too much about politics, but shit's hitting the fan, y'all, right? 00:44:46.740 --> 00:44:56.420 And uh I'm not the only one that is stressed about the overall things, the measles and the things, and the trumps and the things, and the things and the things. 00:44:56.580 --> 00:45:06.900 So I would assume this would be a good time to do compassionate design because parents are out with their sick kids all the time, and uh people have stuff that is stressing them out right now. 00:45:07.140 --> 00:45:08.420 Yes, so much stuff. 00:45:08.580 --> 00:45:17.540 And if you are the company that is able to speak into that chaos with a voice of calm, people will take notice. 00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:20.260 Yeah, people will take notice. 00:45:20.420 --> 00:45:24.820 Now, I do not advocate I'm gonna do compassionate design because I'll make more money. 00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:26.740 That is not what this is about. 00:45:27.220 --> 00:45:29.460 At the end of the day, this is about being a good human. 00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:36.900 Um, and at the end of the day, humans use my products and humans read my emails, and humans access my website. 00:45:37.140 --> 00:45:41.860 And so I want to demonstrate that I care about those humans because it's the right thing to do. 00:45:42.580 --> 00:45:48.020 It's the right thing to do, it's the kind of person I want to be, it's the kind Of company I want to work for. 00:45:48.660 --> 00:45:50.580 And I think most of us would say that. 00:45:50.740 --> 00:45:54.180 Nobody says, I want to work for the guy who's like Mr. 00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:59.540 Potter in It's a Wonderful Life, who hates everybody and is mean and underhanded and lies and steals. 00:45:59.700 --> 00:46:00.100 I don't know. 00:46:00.180 --> 00:46:05.220 You just mentioned a brand that I know is kind of challenging to work for, is all I'm saying. 00:46:05.540 --> 00:46:08.420 But yes, most of us want to be nice humans. 00:46:08.580 --> 00:46:08.740 Yes. 00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:10.900 And work for brands that are nice. 00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:11.220 Yes. 00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:11.620 Right. 00:46:11.860 --> 00:46:14.740 We certainly want to shop at places that make us feel nice. 00:46:14.980 --> 00:46:15.460 Right. 00:46:15.700 --> 00:46:16.100 Yeah. 00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:27.700

So, and if I have a choice between two equal products, and one is from a company that has always provided me with stellar communication, and one is with a company that's been a hot mess to work with. 00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:29.700 Who am I going to pick? 00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:38.500 See, this is why I know I grew up in Maine, so like I'm gonna default to LOBN anyway, but like there, you could return forever for your entire lifetime. 00:46:38.660 --> 00:46:42.500 And I know they pulled back on it, but they still don't give you crap about returning ever. 00:46:42.740 --> 00:46:42.980 Yep. 00:46:43.140 --> 00:46:44.580 And so it makes you nice. 00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:45.940 It does. 00:46:46.100 --> 00:46:46.740 It does. 00:46:46.900 --> 00:46:50.260 And I have never, you know, actually, that's huge. 00:46:50.420 --> 00:46:54.180 I have never had increased stress walking into L-O-Bean to return anything. 00:46:54.340 --> 00:46:54.660 Right. 00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:58.500 Whereas I've definitely had increased stress walking into everywhere else. 00:46:58.740 --> 00:47:04.900 I keep things that I don't want sometimes because the stress of having to return it is just more than I want to deal with. 00:47:05.060 --> 00:47:05.220 Yeah. 00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:08.100 And I'm like opportunity cost on that and keeping it. 00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:13.220 Well, especially in the instance of walking into an L-Obean store where you then get lost because there's a lot of stuff to look at. 00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:14.260 And then I spend more money. 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:14.740 It's crazy. 00:47:14.900 --> 00:47:15.300 Yeah, exactly. 00:47:15.380 --> 00:47:16.100 It's all that. 00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:21.140 Look at the fish in the at the main headquarters location and get in the bubble and see the fish. 00:47:23.300 --> 00:47:25.940 Did you get in the bubble and see the fish flying around your head? 00:47:26.180 --> 00:47:26.580 I don't remember. 00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:29.060 Oh, you missed that over a long time ago. 00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:32.180 Over by where they sell the guns for everybody listening. 00:47:32.260 --> 00:47:35.460 There's a huge aquarium with main fish in it, including trout and salmon. 00:47:35.540 --> 00:47:38.900 And they mind you you can get in there as an adult, it's really for the kids. 00:47:38.980 --> 00:47:45.460 But you can like scoot under and they have like a bubble where your head pops up into the aquarium and the fish fly around your head. 00:47:45.700 --> 00:47:46.180 That's really cool. 00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:47.700 See, that's a smile. 00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:48.260 There you go. 00:47:48.340 --> 00:47:51.700 If you ever end up in Freeport, I've given you a tourist tip. 00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:57.140 Um so where do you see compassionate design going in the next one three to five years? 00:47:57.380 --> 00:48:00.900 I hope it becomes the norm, honestly, for the reasons that you just said. 00:48:01.060 --> 00:48:03.300 We are living in crazy and chaotic times. 00:48:03.380 --> 00:48:04.100 It's everywhere. 00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:05.220 You can't escape it. 00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:10.740 Like I'm on LinkedIn to look for business stuff, and people are still talking about personal stuff. 00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:12.820 Yeah, like it's everywhere. 00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:14.500 You cannot escape it. 00:48:14.660 --> 00:48:19.620 And so my hope is that it becomes the normal way of how we design. 00:48:19.700 --> 00:48:21.300 But honestly, I don't know. 00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:27.780 Um, when we wrote our book, I wrote a book with a bunch of other people called Designed with Care, Creating Trauma Informed Content. 00:48:27.860 --> 00:48:31.780 And when we wrote it, it was the only book on the market about trauma-informed design. 00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:32.980 It isn't any longer. 00:48:33.140 --> 00:48:34.820 Um, and so I'm thrilled with that. 00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:36.580 There are more courses available. 00:48:36.740 --> 00:48:46.900 Almost every tech conference that I've seen a report come out lately, anything that's content or design related has a module on trauma-informed content design. 00:48:47.060 --> 00:48:49.620 Um, it's becoming more known. 00:48:49.780 --> 00:48:53.540 There are tons of people on LinkedIn who are talking about it and writing about it. 00:48:53.700 --> 00:48:58.580 Um, I think it will become more of the mainstream. 00:48:58.740 --> 00:49:07.380 I do also think there's been a little bit of backlash because some folks are saying that they're doing trauma-informed content design and they're not. 00:49:07.620 --> 00:49:13.300 Um, and so there's been some backlash about that that, oh, now it's the hip-in thing. 00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:15.220 And so everybody's doing it. 00:49:15.380 --> 00:49:17.860 I don't want everybody to be doing it like that. 00:49:18.020 --> 00:49:21.620 I want everybody to be doing it because it's the right thing to do. 00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:27.460 Um, and if some people are doing it just because they think it will make them rich, fine, they're still doing it. 00:49:27.540 --> 00:49:28.580 You know, I'll take that. 00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:34.980 Um so I think that it is gonna become more the norm because I think people are gonna expect it. 00:49:35.220 --> 00:49:43.300 As companies begin to be more compassionate in their content, it's going to be very obvious the companies that aren't. 00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:43.860 Right. 00:49:44.020 --> 00:49:46.580 Um, and so I think that they will shift. 00:49:46.660 --> 00:49:52.820 Like this company that I had the phenomenal chatbot experience with, um, it was not Amazon. 00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:58.340 And I had a problem with Amazon and it did not go as well. 00:49:58.580 --> 00:49:58.820 Yeah. 00:49:58.980 --> 00:50:04.900 Um, but I think that's going to be changing as companies see that there are different ways to do things. 00:50:05.060 --> 00:50:08.020 Um, so I hope more people are practicing it.

00:50:08.100 --> 00:50:09.780 I hope more people are talking about it. 00:50:09.940 --> 00:50:18.820 I think making the shift to trauma-informed marketing is another step forward because I don't know that there's been a lot of inroads into that. 00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:24.980 Because I think we kind of reflexively look at marketing as not compassionate, right? 00:50:25.140 --> 00:50:25.460 Right. 00:50:25.620 --> 00:50:27.620 Um, and I don't think it has to be that way. 00:50:29.140 --> 00:50:34.660 Um, so we've been dancing around the idea of empathy, because obviously compassion forum, you need to have empathy. 00:50:34.900 --> 00:50:40.260 Uh, do for people that feel like they need to, I worked like decade in nonprofits, I don't know. 00:50:40.340 --> 00:50:42.340 And I volunteer every week now. 00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:47.380 We're filling local food pantries because the DC market got hit by unemployment and stuff. 00:50:47.620 --> 00:50:52.580 So anyway, and particularly we're filling them in front of schools, so we're feeding kids. 00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:59.860 Um, so I don't know that I need to flex my empathy muscle too much, but for people that are like, hey, maybe I need a little bit more help. 00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:03.220 Do you have any sense of will they get it from some of these classes you've mentioned? 00:51:03.540 --> 00:51:03.940 They will. 00:51:04.100 --> 00:51:06.100 They'll get some of that from those classes. 00:51:06.340 --> 00:51:15.380 I would say the best way to kind of build your empathy muscles is to hang out with people, volunteer, just like what you're doing. 00:51:15.540 --> 00:51:15.860 Yes. 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:23.060 Um if that feels too overwhelming for you, go to a public place and just people watch for a little while. 00:51:23.300 --> 00:51:26.740 Um, and ask yourself, what do I see? 00:51:27.380 --> 00:51:29.780 What do I see as these people walk by me? 00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:37.300 Um, or when someone cuts you off in traffic and your first response is um not very compassionate or empathic. 00:51:37.540 --> 00:51:40.260 Ask yourself, what kind of day is that person having? 00:51:41.300 --> 00:51:43.380 And I don't know what kind of day they're having. 00:51:43.540 --> 00:51:54.740 Well, maybe I could be a little bit more gracious, or something as easy as I'm in the checkout line at the grocery store and I just want to get home because it's been a long day. 00:51:54.980 --> 00:51:58.900 Well, look at the clerk who is ringing up your groceries and taking your money. 00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:04.100 They have a name tag, use their name tag, their name, and ask them how their day's been, right? 00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:05.540 Because they're always going to ask you something. 00:52:05.700 --> 00:52:07.300 Hey, did you find everything you needed? 00:52:07.540 --> 00:52:09.140 Have a good day, whatever. 00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:13.060 So look at them and say, Hey, Crystal, I hope you're having a good day. 00:52:13.140 --> 00:52:16.180 Or, Crystal, you look like you've been on shift for a long time. 00:52:16.260 --> 00:52:17.700 I hope you get to go home soon. 00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:20.100 That's funny because that is what my husband does a lot. 00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:32.900 He'll ask, he'll, yeah, because uh honestly, my my empathy muscle got better being married to this man because he always, even before kids and the pets, he had that like, I bet that person's having a stressful day. 00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:35.300 That was his default every time something. 00:52:36.180 --> 00:52:37.140 I know, I know. 00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:38.580 Mine was not, unfortunately. 00:52:38.660 --> 00:52:42.100 It's getting better, it's getting better, but but his always was. 00:52:42.180 --> 00:52:46.580 He I I would grump about it and he'd be like, wait, I bet that person had a stressful did you ask them? 00:52:46.660 --> 00:52:50.340 And then he will ask people and be like, Wow, man, that's a long shift. 00:52:50.420 --> 00:52:51.860 I'm glad you're almost getting off. 00:52:52.020 --> 00:52:54.660 And anyway, that is part of his DNA. 00:52:54.900 --> 00:52:58.980 I think that's a great way to just build your your own empathy muscles. 00:52:59.060 --> 00:53:03.940 And because what it boils down to at the end of the day is is understanding people, right? 00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:06.900 Um, and I can't understand people if I'm not with them. 00:53:07.060 --> 00:53:15.860 And I think that's so key in our world today, where so much of our contact is online and on screens, right? 00:53:15.940 --> 00:53:19.300 And we text people living in our own home, right? 00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:20.660 While they're in the next room. 00:53:20.980 --> 00:53:21.540 That's true. 00:53:21.700 --> 00:53:22.340 I do that. 00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:23.220 It's so true. 00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:27.540 I tell myself it's because we don't have an intercom system in our home and it's easier than yelling. 00:53:28.020 --> 00:53:37.380 Um but I think I think recognizing that there are real live human beings out there um living in real world situations. 00:53:37.540 --> 00:53:42.980 Um, and though I can't see them when I'm writing my email text, they are there. 00:53:43.300 --> 00:53:56.660 Um and so the more I get to be around live humans and watch how they interact with one another and think about the kind of days they might be having, that will naturally inform the way that I write. 00:53:56.980 --> 00:53:57.460 Yeah. 00:53:57.620 --> 00:53:58.100 Yeah. 00:53:58.340 --> 00:53:59.620 So this has been great. 00:53:59.780 --> 00:54:01.460 Um, you have a bunch of resources. 00:54:01.540 --> 00:54:02.420 You've mentioned a couple. 00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:04.100 Do you have any others that you want to share? 00:54:04.420 --> 00:54:04.660 Yeah. 00:54:04.820 --> 00:54:09.060 So I mentioned uh so a couple people that I would say follow online. 00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:11.860 Well, first you should buy my book, Design to With

Kid. 00:54:12.660 --> 00:54:13.300 Go ahead. 00:54:13.460 --> 00:54:13.780 Yes. 00:54:14.020 --> 00:54:15.140 We're gonna plug that. 00:54:15.220 --> 00:54:16.100 Just do it. 00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:18.900 Um, Eva, Eva Penzi Moog's book. 00:54:19.060 --> 00:54:22.580 Now, these are book apart books, so I hope that you can still get them. 00:54:22.740 --> 00:54:26.820 Um, but Design for Safety, Design for Real Life is also good. 00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:32.900 There's one, David Dylan Thomas has written one called Design for Cognitive Bias. 00:54:33.380 --> 00:54:34.660 That's also excellent. 00:54:34.820 --> 00:54:47.460 If you're trying to figure out how I can talk to more customers and clients without a research budget, Erica Hall wrote a book called Just Enough Research that gives you some creative ideas on how to incorporate research into that. 00:54:47.780 --> 00:54:55.780 Rachel Edwards, who's out of the UK, actually just posted last week on LinkedIn a ton of resources for trauma-informed design. 00:54:55.940 --> 00:54:57.380 Um so she's a great person. 00:54:57.540 --> 00:55:11.380 Rachel Dietkiss, it's D-I-E-T-K-U-S, is in the US, and she does a ton of stuff with trauma-informed design, as does Megan, and I'm gonna butcher her last name, Lega Week. 00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:15.140 It's L-E-G-A-W-I-E-C. 00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:20.100 Um, she writes a lot about trauma-informed design as well. 00:55:20.180 --> 00:55:33.780 Um, so those are some places that I would start and folks that I can that I would say follow, read some books, Google it because I've done some talks on it that I know are available on YouTube that you could look up. 00:55:34.020 --> 00:55:40.500 So there's a lot of resources out there, and there wasn't even just three years ago, there were not that many resources out there. 00:55:40.580 --> 00:55:42.260 Um but there's great buttons now. 00:55:42.340 --> 00:55:42.580 Yeah. 00:55:42.820 --> 00:55:44.500 We'll make sure to put all those in the show notes. 00:55:44.580 --> 00:55:45.060 That'll be great. 00:55:45.540 --> 00:55:47.620 And how can more people learn about you? 00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:57.220 You can follow me on LinkedIn, um, reach out and connect with me and tell me, like, don't just send me a connection because if I don't know you or not sharing connections, I probably won't accept it. 00:55:57.300 --> 00:55:59.620 Um, it'll probably just die in my box. 00:56:00.020 --> 00:56:04.260 So let me know that you heard me on this podcast, and then that gives me a frame of reference. 00:56:04.420 --> 00:56:07.300 So I'm Michelle Decker Keller on LinkedIn. 00:56:07.540 --> 00:56:08.420 You can find me there. 00:56:08.580 --> 00:56:10.260 I I do write on medium. 00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:13.940 I'll be honest, I haven't been super consistent since I got a new job last year. 00:56:14.020 --> 00:56:21.060 Um, but I have a ton of articles on trauma informed design on my medium, and so it's also uh Michelle Decker Keller on Medium as well. 00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:21.860 Awesome. 00:56:22.100 --> 00:56:23.540 This has been so much fun. 00:56:23.700 --> 00:56:26.420 I'm so glad that we were able to reschedule this and make it happen. 00:56:26.580 --> 00:56:27.700 Thanks for being on the show. 00:56:27.940 --> 00:56:28.900 Thank you for asking me. 00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:31.300 I really enjoyed it, and I hope your users found it helpful. 00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:34.180 And if they have questions, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. 00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:36.020 I'm always happy to talk about it. 00:56:36.340 --> 00:56:36.980 Great. 00:56:37.460 --> 00:56:38.900 Thanks so much for listening. 00:56:39.060 --> 00:56:43.540 To find out more about the podcast and what we're up to, go to digital marketingvictories.com. 00:56:43.620 --> 00:56:48.740 And if you like what you heard, subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:56:49.060 --> 00:56:51.940 Rate us, comment, and share the podcast, please. 00:56:52.180 --> 00:56:55.620 I'm always looking for new ideas, topics, and guests. 00:56:55.860 --> 00:57:01.380 Email us at digital marketing victories at gmail.com or DM us on Twitter at DM Victories. 00:57:01.540 --> 00:58:17.540 Thanks for listening to the