Ep. 59 - Ask What's Broken Before You Buy the AI: A PM's Way Out of Suck-Faster Software의 전체 녹취록

00:04:28.791 the older generation is a little less excitable because they've seen the world 00:04:28.791 --> 00:04:30.321 crush their dreams already. 00:04:30.321 --> 00:04:33.901 So, of course, they're that way. It hasn't changed in years. 00:04:33.901 --> 00:04:37.645 And it's going to be like this from every generation to generation. 00:04:37.994 --> 00:04:41.691 But there are fundamental things that have changed along the way that are true. 00:04:42.011 --> 00:04:45.481 Right. Like, you know, the technology boom and the fact that, 00:04:45.481 --> 00:04:49.781 you know, we all started with iPhones that weren't iPhones. It was memory was 00:04:49.781 --> 00:04:54.239 a touch. Then you spun it. And that was like the coolest thing I could spin through my music. 00:04:54.599 --> 00:04:59.551 And who knew who knew someday it would be this thing like we didn't and we didn't 00:04:59.551 --> 00:05:00.891 know how we were going to get there. 00:05:00.891 --> 00:05:08.061 So I think that that understanding that the newest generation each time is going 00:05:08.061 --> 00:05:14.281 to have that that excitement, but also that they haven't had their dreams crushed. 00:05:14.281 --> 00:05:17.201 So they're going to try a few things that maybe you wouldn't. 00:05:17.201 --> 00:05:20.567 And the interesting thing about that is, is we need that balance, right? 00:05:21.098 --> 00:05:25.011 We need somebody over there going, OK, you can try that. Like Lars, 00:05:25.431 --> 00:05:29.411 the robot, the DeWalt robot like that's like, wow, wait a minute. 00:05:29.411 --> 00:05:34.801 We're doing so much of that enclosure work right now with long slabs with lots 00:05:34.801 --> 00:05:36.086 of holes in it. It's like... 00:05:37.141 --> 00:05:40.757 Yeah, I want a kid with a, you know, that grew up on a PlayStation, 00:05:41.146 --> 00:05:44.373 controlling those with a PlayStation controller that they're really comfortable 00:05:44.373 --> 00:05:49.279 with, and that knows quickly how to replace batteries and drill bits and, 00:05:49.824 --> 00:05:54.776 and, and the, and the silica bag, but then can also like. 00:05:56.093 --> 00:06:00.430 Be with someone who's got experience who's like, hey, we're looking at the, 00:06:00.941 --> 00:06:05.673 whatever this is, you know, while it's drilling, but, hey, take a look over 00:06:05.673 --> 00:06:08.963 here, we're going to be, you know, Installing this here, we need to be... 00:06:09.053 --> 00:06:10.792 And they could be talking to one another. 00:06:11.291 --> 00:06:14.293 And that's something that this business isn't going to change. 00:06:14.293 --> 00:06:17.177 Like a lot of times I felt like interviewing people... 00:06:18.037 --> 00:06:20.860 They were going to like get rid of the relationship business. 00:06:20.860 --> 00:06:25.203 And I'm like, that's not going anywhere, guys. It's not. Yeah. 00:06:25.831 --> 00:06:28.750 All right. Sponsor break. Lars, real quick. When was the last time you got a 00:06:28.750 --> 00:06:33.156 new set of drawings from an architect and they didn't cloud anything? 00:06:33.539 --> 00:06:39.335 Well, the one that cost me a couple hundred grand was back, I think, in 2017. So, yeah. 00:06:39.648 --> 00:06:43.240 Lesson learned there. Yeah. So, you know, what I like about what Trunk Tools 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:49.950 is building is they're looking at tools to help kind of remove the mundane from the job site. 00:06:49.950 --> 00:06:54.600 And, you know, same as you, every time there was a bulletin or an addendum, 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.460 I would go back to designers and ask them to at least highlight or give me a 00:06:58.460 --> 00:06:59.520 cover letter on the changes. 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.230 And that was always like pulling like teeth. But Trunk Tools is now automating 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:07.242 that. So you get a bulletin come in, it automatically highlights the changes. 00:07:07.619 --> 00:07:08.455 You don't have to do a thing. 00:07:08.943 --> 00:07:12.200 Well, it's also hitting RFIs, right? It's also hitting submittals. 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.785 And when we think about standardizing ops, right, and providing that, 00:07:17.284 --> 00:07:23.400 you know, sort of resource to those field operators, what I see it as, you know, 00:07:24.068 --> 00:07:28.750 it's sort of like this, like, mentor within the company that structures, 00:07:28.750 --> 00:07:32.620 standardizes, keeps it moving in the right direction, looks out for risk. 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:38.571 And just this last week, you know, I had a QC manager just pass along the submittal to an owner. 00:07:39.188 --> 00:07:41.899 Without doing a review because he was too busy and it was wrong. 00:07:43.066 --> 00:07:47.344 And, you know, the classic owner statement is, did you even review this? Right? 00:07:47.933 --> 00:07:52.089 So this to me is carte blanche. We absolutely did. 00:07:52.461 --> 00:07:56.076 And think about getting that first pass before your, your, your, 00:07:56.076 --> 00:08:00.036 your, your, your field manager ever even actually has to do the first pass. 00:08:00.036 --> 00:08:03.867 Someone's doing it for him. So to me, it's about speed. It increases accuracy 00:08:04.187 --> 00:08:06.485 and helps standardize ops out in the field. Right? 00:08:07.060 --> 00:08:10.276 Yeah. And this is the kind of AI that we've talked about on the podcast, 00:08:10.276 --> 00:08:14.206 really appreciating, right? Which is looking at ways to elevate the craftsman 00:08:14.566 --> 00:08:15.746 at the heart of project delivery. 00:08:16.086 --> 00:08:21.439 Give me time back so I can be out in the field managing risk, right? Yeah, 100%. 00:08:21.833 --> 00:08:26.993 So, all right. If you're a little curious, check it out, trunktools.com forward slash podcast. 00:08:27.592 --> 00:08:31.556 And if you mentioned construction conversations, you get a discount. Discount. 00:08:31.556 --> 00:08:35.778 Demos are free and you guys get a

discount. So let's go. 00:08:35.778 --> 00:08:42.066 Right do you remember back so like 2016 was like the last time i was on an actual 00:08:42.066 --> 00:08:46.566 project like in an op seat and i was trying to remember back it almost feels 00:08:46.566 --> 00:08:49.946 like there was like there was a pre-ai kind of reality, 00:08:50.426 --> 00:08:54.396 and view of like innovation and tech and then there was the post kind of ai 00:08:54.396 --> 00:09:00.786 reality which we're in like pre you know pre-ai pre-2022 kind of chat gpt thing, 00:09:01.427 --> 00:09:05.626 I can't even really remember like what were we talking about from a tech and 00:09:05.626 --> 00:09:09.333 innovation standpoint like what was the big thing was it it was like. 00:09:10.188 --> 00:09:14.779 It was like data lakes, wasn't it? So there was data lakes and there was kind 00:09:14.779 --> 00:09:18.169 of understanding the big data, right? 00:09:18.169 --> 00:09:22.489 And so, and you have to remember that fundamentally we were talking about AI. 00:09:22.489 --> 00:09:25.979 It's just LLMs are what people think of when we think of AI, 00:09:25.979 --> 00:09:28.599 but we were talking about computer vision back then, right? 00:09:28.599 --> 00:09:33.199 Computer vision was a big thing and it really had an impact and still has. 00:09:33.199 --> 00:09:37.049 In fact, it's one of the most mature of all of the AIs, right? 00:09:37.049 --> 00:09:45.159 Is computer vision we were talking about yeah your your own you know bi dashboards 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:48.476 not being big data and talking about data lakes but, 00:09:48.994 --> 00:09:53.659 steven before that man like when i got into this industry crocor was the new, 00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:58.979 the new hotness on the block man like project management was the hotness we 00:09:58.979 --> 00:10:04.699 didn't have systems for that and in fact that grew out of the erp. 00:10:05.631 --> 00:10:11.129 Disaster that it was in construction at the time right there just wasn't I mean 00:10:11.129 --> 00:10:17.803 it was it was it was really painful and instead of solving it like other industries with true, 00:10:18.447 --> 00:10:25.785 ERPs that then morph themselves into project management systems we couldn't do that now. 00:10:26.427 --> 00:10:29.098 This is where I get to be wrong. Like I went back and I was like, 00:10:29.098 --> 00:10:33.798 well, you know, it's just because we have crappy ERPs in construction, 00:10:33.798 --> 00:10:36.377 right? We don't really have an ERP in construction. 00:10:36.847 --> 00:10:40.968 It's true. We don't, to my opinion, we don't really have an ERP in construction. 00:10:41.282 --> 00:10:45.107 But the reason being is we don't work like any other industry, 00:10:45.636 --> 00:10:49.358 right? And every other industry, you're consolidated. You're a manufacturer. 00:10:49.358 --> 00:10:53.554 Yeah, you buy external parts and you have inventory, but you manufacture, 00:10:53.977 --> 00:10:55.608

sell and distribute what you do. 00:10:56.088 --> 00:11:00.423 And cash a check, right? Like, and you do that, you hold the reins. 00:11:00.985 --> 00:11:08.178 That's if, if I had learned anything, it is that this is the most complicated industry on the planet. 00:11:08.178 --> 00:11:13.648 And that's what, or complex industry on the planet. And that's what makes software 00:11:13.968 --> 00:11:18.770 and technology evolution, change and adoption so hard. 00:11:19.229 --> 00:11:23.988 So we, we were on ERPs when I got in, it morphed into, you know, 00:11:23.988 --> 00:11:26.665 project management systems at that and then, 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:32.338 it was an app for that revolution man you remember i mean like i can go through 00:11:32.338 --> 00:11:37.268 the list of the ones that were in the room with this the winners the losers 00:11:37.268 --> 00:11:41.227 the the acquired the whatever i mean they were man it was 00:11:41.627 --> 00:11:44.652 daily reports photos time cards like, 00:11:45.157 --> 00:11:48.141 that's all the things that were going on and by the way if you, 00:11:48.828 --> 00:11:50.332 if you strip the lens back, 00:11:51.053 --> 00:11:54.100 off of AI and you like move the noise and. 00:11:55.151 --> 00:11:57.195 They're still talking about all those things I just talked about. 00:11:57.195 --> 00:11:59.675 I was going to say, we're still talking about them. We're still talking about the same thing. 00:12:01.699 --> 00:12:04.770 But now we just say, AI, blah, blah, blah. 00:12:05.395 --> 00:12:07.855 Well, you know what? Like, I think it's interesting. Like, there is, 00:12:07.855 --> 00:12:11.185 like, an app for that, kind of, that period. 00:12:11.185 --> 00:12:14.705 Like, right before that, I feel like there was a much more, like, 00:12:14.705 --> 00:12:20.806 foundational conversation around the strategies and processes surrounding tech. 00:12:21.044 --> 00:12:25.425 And and then there was an app for that which which i think was the beginning 00:12:25.425 --> 00:12:30.343 of you don't need to fix all your processes you just need to buy the right tool, 00:12:30.861 --> 00:12:34.309 and that's like compounded now with what ai is being presented as. 00:12:35.911 --> 00:12:41.215 Oh and it's it's just making a a dumpster fire it's like throwing a gallon of 00:12:41.215 --> 00:12:45.035 gasoline into a dumpster fire it's just it's and, 00:12:45.535 --> 00:12:49.795 and and and i i say that flippantly and I know like I talked about hey I get 00:12:49.795 --> 00:12:54.685 to be wrong and so I'm not saying that it's the wrong thing long term but what 00:12:54.685 --> 00:12:56.327 I'm saying is the way we're doing it, 00:12:56.850 --> 00:12:58.665 in so many respects is just like 00:12:58.665 --> 00:13:03.155 it's it AI is an accelerant of certain things and and you know this and 00:13:03.575 --> 00:13:08.135 it gets attributed to me that I say you can efficiently suck and so if you have 00:13:08.135 --> 00:13:12.788 a really bad you know process and you put good technology on it you'll just suck faster 00:13:13.206 --> 00:13:19.847 that's actually a that's actually a James Benham quote that lives to this day. It is so true. 00:13:20.330 --> 00:13:25.595 And it's just about understanding. And there's also a misnomer. 00:13:25.595 --> 00:13:28.055 And you asked this, and I'm going to tie your two questions together. 00:13:28.055 --> 00:13:32.243 Like, what do I look for in a conversation now? I look for somebody who doesn't get it. 00:13:32.925 --> 00:13:37.268 I look for somebody that doesn't understand that the process is the process. 00:13:37.268 --> 00:13:40.458 We have to go from A to Z, right? 00:13:40.458 --> 00:13:45.038 You're, we're not going to change that. Work has to get installed. 00:13:45.038 --> 00:13:51.928 Things have to be thought of, designed, engineered, and, and fabricated and 00:13:51.928 --> 00:13:56.298 installed, right? That, that's how it is. Now, do we need to go from A to B 00:13:56.298 --> 00:13:57.639 to C and touch every step? 00:13:57.755 --> 00:14:02.508 No, we need to know what that looks like. And we need to know where we can jump 00:14:02.508 --> 00:14:05.230 steps and we can get ahead in the alphabet quicker. 00:14:06.402 --> 00:14:10.348 But we need to know that that's not getting us to some island on its own that 00:14:10.348 --> 00:14:14.768 just, you know, makes us have to start back over somewhere else or creates a 00:14:14.768 --> 00:14:17.828 lack of visibility, another silo in the world. 00:14:17.828 --> 00:14:25.833 Right. And unfortunately, like, AI is doing that at an epic rate when you want it to, you know. 00:14:26.431 --> 00:14:29.978 Sponsor break. If you spend any time running a project, you know the answer 00:14:29.978 --> 00:14:32.718 is almost always sitting in the contract document somewhere. 00:14:33.275 --> 00:14:38.858 Catch is that it's almost never in one document. It's split across the contract, 00:14:38.858 --> 00:14:42.478 the specs, and some flow down clause three layers deep that nobody connects 00:14:42.478 --> 00:14:44.252 until it's already cost money. 00:14:44.461 --> 00:14:48.338 That's the whole premise behind Document Crunch. That risk doesn't live inside 00:14:48.338 --> 00:14:51.079 any single document. It lives in the gaps between them. 00:14:51.259 --> 00:14:55.781 And most teams never look at it all, at all of them together until they're standing in a dispute. 00:14:56.472 --> 00:15:01.038 The average construction dispute in the U.S. now runs about $60 million. 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:04.093 According to Arcadis. It's a lot of money. 00:15:04.499 --> 00:15:08.468 And the root cause they point to isn't fraud or bad intent. It's people not 00:15:08.468 --> 00:15:10.089 fully understanding what they agreed to. 00:15:10.310 --> 00:15:13.177 So Document Crunch builds a platform around closing that gap. 00:15:13.381 --> 00:15:18.993 Crunch AI reads the documents, surfaces the risks, and it

cites the exact page and clause that's big. 00:15:19.342 --> 00:15:23.178 So you're not just taking its word for it. Project Assist lets your team act 00:15:23.178 --> 00:15:26.428 on it, ask questions across the entire project document set, 00:15:26.428 --> 00:15:30.801 hand draft your submitals, notices, and RFIs right from the chat window. 00:15:31.028 --> 00:15:35.418 And the whole thing runs on your own company standards. The office and the field 00:15:35.418 --> 00:15:38.795 are working off the same playbook for bid through closeout. 00:15:39.085 --> 00:15:44.088 No disconnects. It's live now across the U.S. and Canada. Go to documentcrunch.com 00:15:44.088 --> 00:15:47.444 forward slash construction conversations and book a demo. 00:15:47.851 --> 00:15:54.278 I mean, Lars, you've kind of had the opportunity or pleasure of building two 00:15:54.278 --> 00:15:57.620 companies within these two realities. 00:15:58.878 --> 00:16:04.463 What has that been like? You built Herman Construction, I think, what was it, 2010s? 00:16:04.789 --> 00:16:12.527 And then now you're building DAWs in the age of AI. Can you kind of juxtapose the experience there? 00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:20.679 I think, I appreciate that. I think nothing, nothing replaces doing it. 00:16:21.016 --> 00:16:27.770 Like you have to experience the A to B to C to D and then be able to say, 00:16:27.770 --> 00:16:33.350 wait a minute, is that really necessary? Can I, and we used to call it kill the stupid rule. 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:36.300 I forget where I got that from. I think it was from Vern Harnish, 00:16:36.300 --> 00:16:38.510 but it was like, kill the stupid rule. 00:16:38.510 --> 00:16:41.960 Why are we doing it this way? I don't know. It's just because that's the way it was done. 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:46.020 That's because Tom did it that way or Susie did it that way and it was interesting, 00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:50.344 and I want to go back to what something I heard Jeff say was like back in the day, 00:16:50.920 --> 00:16:56.170 you know pre-procore I bought Prolog and I was like Prolog's gonna make me a 00:16:56.170 --> 00:17:01.660 great construction company oh yeah and that was you know as a startup you know 00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:04.507 it was a $20,000 check and I'm like great, 00:17:05.352 --> 00:17:09.830 I did it now I can be a construction company and then there then a consultant 00:17:09.830 --> 00:17:13.490 came in for like 100 and this is a lot of money back in the day too for consultants 00:17:13.490 --> 00:17:16.224 160 an hour or something like that 165, 00:17:16.851 --> 00:17:21.701 and he's like okay what do you want it to do and i was like hold on what huh you know, 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:24.767 and i was like oh no what have i done, 00:17:25.663 --> 00:17:27.611 so fast forward. 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.110 That's just that's that's the donation to get a seat at the table and then you 00:17:33.110 --> 00:17:37.500 still have to raise your hand over and

over but no you still have to pick up 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:39.700 the shovel and dig the hole my friend like. 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:47.230 Digging ditches baby they're just digital ditches so so i think what what i 00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:52.830 was able to do from 2010 to call it 2015 16 where i really sort of set this 00:17:52.830 --> 00:17:55.600 foundation for hermit construction was, 00:17:56.501 --> 00:18:02.900 i deeply knew every workflow in my company everything because i knew that i 00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:07.350 couldn't rely on people to bring their experience from other companies over 00:18:07.350 --> 00:18:09.708 here because ultimately whatever that was, 00:18:10.554 --> 00:18:17.329 what i had seen wasn't that good so i needed our way our culture and then creating 00:18:17.329 --> 00:18:19.464 sort of our processes and, 00:18:20.255 --> 00:18:23.848 again just because someone well this is the way we've done it but i'm like, 00:18:24.342 --> 00:18:30.069 yeah but that's like five extra steps you know and and two extra spreadsheets 00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:35.569 and and really we want speed here speed right speed to market decisions and 00:18:35.569 --> 00:18:37.689 so anyway fast forward now, 00:18:38.323 --> 00:18:43.479 i i I think I'm very blessed to have sort of gone through the crucible moment 00:18:43.479 --> 00:18:47.779 to be creating this newer, and we were already digital forward, 00:18:47.779 --> 00:18:49.419 but I'll call it AI forward company. 00:18:49.419 --> 00:18:51.979 I mean, what we're able to do, what we're able to accomplish, 00:18:52.502 --> 00:18:58.149 it's wild. Now, I was actually asked at the conference where Jeff and I just were like, oh, you know. 00:19:00.369 --> 00:19:05.251 You want to be bigger than DPR? It's like, no, no, no. That's the last thing I want to be. 00:19:05.989 --> 00:19:09.226 I desire simplicity and structure with speed. 00:19:09.866 --> 00:19:14.739 And so if I can be a $250 million construction company that actually gets to 00:19:14.739 --> 00:19:20.139 take vacations, quality of life is great, we're accurate, financial reporting 00:19:20.139 --> 00:19:22.709 isn't this huge lift, right? 00:19:22.709 --> 00:19:26.069 Like, it's the way it should be. It's the way it should be. 00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:31.819 And so finding ways to engineer simplicity back into the organization, 00:19:31.819 --> 00:19:37.357 I think it was also, what was it? Steve Jobs. It was just like simple design is really complex. 00:19:37.637 --> 00:19:42.849 And so I think building a simple company takes an incredible amount of thought and energy to build. 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:52.950 Engineer risk out and put controls in place structure and and and really have a just a very, 00:19:53.479 --> 00:19:59.890 well-oiled machine it takes a lot of time i feel ai is an accelerant around that and and again and i, 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:05.320 and i brief this for every one platform i say yes to i'm getting rid of two 00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:10.180 or three minimum period right so i'm not layering stuff on i'm, 00:20:11.024 --> 00:20:12.818 i'm i'm i'm extracting things and, 00:20:13.780 --> 00:20:18.740 and and building simpleness so there you go well i mean i love that north star too which is, 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:23.990 it's you know it's it's not i think oftentimes we don't define success well 00:20:23.990 --> 00:20:25.780 enough either from kind of the, 00:20:26.300 --> 00:20:29.000 the vendor perspective with the app perspective what are we actually trying 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.420 to solve for and i think from the founder seat or the the builder seat understanding 00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:36.860 that how can you use these tools to improve kind of, 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:40.040 the standard of living of yourself and your people. 00:20:40.040 --> 00:20:44.200 I think increasingly that needs to be a metric that we use. 00:20:45.546 --> 00:20:49.900 I think, go ahead. I'll say, so again, you know, my software company Contracts 00:20:49.900 --> 00:20:55.096 Connected is born out of the pure pain of contract administration. 00:20:55.641 --> 00:20:59.525 Negotiations, issuance, template management, all the ongoing stuff. 00:20:59.676 --> 00:21:03.646 And the fact that I dug those ditches for a long time. 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.870 And my mom did and a couple other contract admins. And I'm like, 00:21:07.870 --> 00:21:10.252 this has got to be a better way. This is insane. 00:21:10.641 --> 00:21:14.290 And when you think about people layering, and I think, Jeff, 00:21:14.290 --> 00:21:19.520 this is a little bit of your point, when we take existing tools and just bolt 00:21:19.520 --> 00:21:23.939 on AI, are we actually creating more chaos? 00:21:24.248 --> 00:21:26.418 Or are we re-imagining. 00:21:27.363 --> 00:21:31.724 Does this actually have to be like this anymore? What could this workflow look like? 00:21:31.944 --> 00:21:35.621 And that's the period we're in right now. 00:21:35.621 --> 00:21:39.631 We're just, I think to your point, like AI just chucking at it. 00:21:39.631 --> 00:21:43.861 Hey, next thing you know, every tool has AI. It's like, yeah, 00:21:44.521 --> 00:21:47.671 this is overwhelming. This is just pure overwhelm right now. 00:21:48.008 --> 00:21:53.477 And it might be simple to go back to just doing some things on pen and paper 00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:56.659 because it's 37 clicks to get an RFI out now. 00:21:57.250 --> 00:22:02.781 Yeah. Well, you hit it before though, Lars, like in your prologue experience, 00:22:02.781 --> 00:22:06.149 that was the thing when I came to the industry that was such a surprise to me, 00:22:06.806 --> 00:22:10.777 is that we thought the software was going to solve our problems. 00:22:11.449 --> 00:22:15.211 It's just not the case. There is, and there are still people out there, 00:22:15.211 --> 00:22:18.571 like this problem is still pervasive. They think the AI is going to solve the 00:22:18.571

--> 00:22:21.677 problem. Like they've been waiting for the easy button and it just never comes. 00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:28.311 You said something super, super poignant there about i know every one of my workflows. 00:22:29.014 --> 00:22:34.950 Right like not everybody at every company can do that but people should know those workflows, 00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:39.171 and then you know that's what you know that's why i got my start that's why 00:22:39.171 --> 00:22:44.059 i did so well was because i was like whoa we're not going to buy a software yet, 00:22:44.610 --> 00:22:50.171 you don't even know what you need what's broken let's figure that out first 00:22:50.171 --> 00:22:52.081 let's do a requirements matrix. 00:22:52.081 --> 00:22:58.240 Like there was this pointing fingers at each other of like your software sucks. 00:22:58.466 --> 00:23:02.844 And it was like, you can't digitize. You don't know what you're doing. And I was like. 00:23:03.543 --> 00:23:09.553 You know, you're both wrong, right? Because like you, software company, 00:23:09.553 --> 00:23:11.223 your thing doesn't do what I 00:23:11.223 --> 00:23:15.671 need it to do, but I haven't done the homework to know what it is I need. 00:23:15.955 --> 00:23:19.953 So of course you're going to sell me your greatest thing and I'm going to want 00:23:19.953 --> 00:23:22.653 to buy it and then it's not going to work, right? 00:23:22.653 --> 00:23:29.173 Like it's, ah, we got to connect these things together and it's not simple and they wanted simple. 00:23:29.173 --> 00:23:34.343 And I'm like, this stuff's not simple. What you do in life is not simple from 00:23:34.343 --> 00:23:39.475 a construction perspective. So we're going to have to map this out and like care about it. 00:23:39.743 --> 00:23:43.470 And then we can be successful. And that's when the motion started. 00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:47.933 And by the way, you strip it back. And Lars, it's the same thing is true. 00:23:47.933 --> 00:23:53.323 Like if I know my workflow and I have something that works for that workflow 00:23:53.323 --> 00:23:57.462 and then I can pour the accelerant on it, I can get to success. 00:23:57.577 --> 00:24:01.077 But better than that man you said something that. 00:24:02.339 --> 00:24:05.217 Basically has almost killed me a few times in this industry. 00:24:05.217 --> 00:24:10.054 So I'm glad to hear you say it. You have to figure out what you are as a company. 00:24:10.714 --> 00:24:15.577 Are you a lifestyle company? Do you want to be the next DPR? 00:24:16.385 --> 00:24:23.090 Do you want to be Turner? Do you want to be Kiewit? Do you want to be some whatever? 00:24:24.702 --> 00:24:32.597 All of them are okay. No one can tell you that it's wrong, but you have to define 00:24:32.597 --> 00:24:36.687 that for yourself and then understand what that takes. 00:24:36.687 --> 00:24:42.477 Like so many times I've gone to a contractor and we have this stupid measurement 00:24:42.477 --> 00:24:47.407 system and Lars, you said it, and I don't think it's, you're not being stupid 00:24:47.407 --> 00:24:50.285 in this. It's just, it's, I don't get it. 00:24:50.778 --> 00:24:53.112 I'm a $250 million contractor. 00:24:53.851 --> 00:25:01.102 Okay. But if you output 300 million, then you're not really a good contractor. right like, 00:25:03.377 --> 00:25:09.387 you have to be profitable right we we check it by our backlog but again if my 00:25:09.387 --> 00:25:13.431 debt's growing faster than what i'm doing how good am i really, 00:25:14.577 --> 00:25:18.837 there was a share from gosh i think it was one of my mentors can't remember 00:25:18.837 --> 00:25:23.987 who but it was revenues for vanity profits for sanity and it's so many companies 00:25:23.987 --> 00:25:29.257 want to grow top line top line top line top top line and especially when, 00:25:30.456 --> 00:25:33.602 these very strategic things. 00:25:35.314 --> 00:25:40.957 Foundations and systems are put in place to without those strategic conversations 00:25:41.113 --> 00:25:44.149 early on in the, Hey, we're going to grow process. 00:25:44.643 --> 00:25:49.461 What happens is that the top line grows and the profit stays the same. 00:25:50.181 --> 00:25:54.113 And I've seen, you know what that ends up with too, right? It's all right. 00:25:54.113 --> 00:25:58.343 And I mean, gross profit, like number, not percentage. 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.203 Okay. So it's like, we just went up a hundred million dollars, 00:26:01.203 --> 00:26:05.239 but we're still only making 2 million. Like what, what's going on here? gross. 00:26:05.634 --> 00:26:10.623 And you've exposed yourself to twice the risk. Yeah. So now if you were to go 00:26:10.623 --> 00:26:13.963 wrong and get hit, you're going to go further back. 00:26:14.843 --> 00:26:18.843 I like where you're coming from in a lot of this. 00:26:18.843 --> 00:26:23.959 I think we share a lot of similar mindsets on this, but what I saw so early 00:26:24.203 --> 00:26:33.428 was let's just throw human beings at the problem and my time in the military was. 00:26:34.743 --> 00:26:39.233 One was you know i saw great leadership and i saw leadership that needed needed 00:26:39.233 --> 00:26:48.713 some help and it trying to be very kind here and i think it was just this natural like, 00:26:49.364 --> 00:26:53.752 just go throw some some soldiers sailors at the problem and you know, 00:26:54.431 --> 00:26:59.546 It's expendable right There's just human beings go And I was like, 00:27:00.583 --> 00:27:04.183 We don't know what the problem is Right Jeff to your point like well what Are 00:27:04.183 --> 00:27:05.705 we solving for and I think. 00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:12.177 Like, really saying, doing an internal deep dive as to, hey, 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:14.149 and bringing it back around the construction here. It's like, 00:27:14.149 --> 00:27:16.759 hey, this AI stuff is really cool, right? 00:27:17.678 --> 00:27:22.209 We know our accounting department's not

going away. We know our ops department isn't going away. 00:27:22.209 --> 00:27:28.529 We know estimating isn't going away. But how do we reimagine what this new future looks like? 00:27:28.529 --> 00:27:31.349 And there was a gentleman I was talking to. I said, yeah, I don't care how big 00:27:31.349 --> 00:27:34.949 of a company you are. If you're not building a 2.0 in secret right now in your 00:27:34.949 --> 00:27:37.503 company with a small team, you're at risk. 00:27:37.956 --> 00:27:42.669 And reimagine this entire environment. The moment they walk in the door, 00:27:42.669 --> 00:27:44.730 what does it look like? What does it feel like? What do they do? 00:27:45.479 --> 00:27:48.649 Is it literally, can they do everything from their phone? I think there's a 00:27:48.649 --> 00:27:50.673 future where that's possible, you know? 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:56.919 So, I mean, I have clawed on my phone working with my agents right now in the 00:27:56.919 --> 00:27:59.587 cloud, reviewing plans and specs. 00:28:00.305 --> 00:28:07.839 I got my team of job site soldiers crushing for me anyway well well two things 00:28:08.199 --> 00:28:10.881 you know that's the innovator's dilemma right if you're in a company, 00:28:11.404 --> 00:28:14.079 and you're a big company if you haven't read innovator's dilemma folks go out 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.586 and read innovator's dilemma it's going to make you go oh, 00:28:17.115 --> 00:28:21.649 and then realize that that's going to repeat itself over and over and over but 00:28:21.649 --> 00:28:23.559 the interesting thing lars and and, 00:28:24.104 --> 00:28:28.289 you steven to your point before about like what have i learned over time I learned 00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:33.319 there's a why on so many things that I didn't realize so, 00:28:33.959 --> 00:28:38.158 to give the industry credit and change your analogy a little there is like, 00:28:38.639 --> 00:28:42.939 we used to throw bodies at the problem in construction which was actually a 00:28:42.939 --> 00:28:49.338 good thing because economically speaking that put more people to work more wage more money, 00:28:49.814 --> 00:28:53.759 yeah the project costs were what they were but like Like, everybody is getting paid. 00:28:53.779 --> 00:28:56.827 You know, we are employing so many people. 00:28:56.983 --> 00:29:01.616 Like, what we forgot about was, though, or what happened was, 00:29:01.964 --> 00:29:03.467 we don't have those people anymore. 00:29:04.228 --> 00:29:08.106 And our problems didn't go away. They got worse. And so we never, 00:29:08.408 --> 00:29:11.859 we had this wise, like, I'm employing all these people. 00:29:11.859 --> 00:29:16.329 Look at me. I'm great. And you were like, you didn't even, you didn't even know 00:29:16.329 --> 00:29:21.056 you had a real problem. The real problem was your process. The real problem was your productivity. 00:29:21.392 --> 00:29:25.871 We started measuring all this stuff because we started running out of

people 00:29:26.034 --> 00:29:29.209 and we can't get the work done and we don't have the bodies to throw at it. 00:29:29.209 --> 00:29:32.280 And we went, oh, what do we do next? 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:35.829 I appreciate that. Because I agree with everything you said, 00:29:35.829 --> 00:29:39.240 and you actually brought clarity to some of my garbled thoughts here. 00:29:39.675 --> 00:29:43.379 But what's interesting is, you know, I look at it as job costs and home office 00:29:43.379 --> 00:29:49.329 overhead, right? So job cost of individuals are like, hey, that's needed job. 00:29:49.329 --> 00:29:53.631 We have to throw bodies at it, right? We got to staff it correctly to execute the mission. 00:29:54.819 --> 00:29:58.839 A little bit of what I was talking about was, oh, wow, we just got $100 million, 00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:01.264 more worth of work or 20 new projects. Quick. 00:30:01.868 --> 00:30:04.809 Like, well, you know, our contracts department is going to double our estimating 00:30:04.809 --> 00:30:06.819 departments. We've got to go hire five new people. 00:30:07.419 --> 00:30:12.169 And that's a little bit where where I'm talking about, because that's where 00:30:12.169 --> 00:30:19.921 I think that chaos trickles down to the field and then quality of life is in this. 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:25.000 Like you're running from something rather than running towards something. 00:30:25.273 --> 00:30:31.583 And so you actually feel it in like your bones, this stress level, 00:30:32.208 --> 00:30:38.646 from the organization that has put you into this role of chaos management. 00:30:39.052 --> 00:30:40.369 And it doesn't have to be that way. 00:30:41.066 --> 00:30:44.921 So let's reposition this for the next generation. Because I think there's going 00:30:44.921 --> 00:30:47.341 to be folks listening to this that obviously this resonates with. 00:30:47.341 --> 00:30:50.391 It's not just like as like conceptually, historically, it's like, 00:30:50.391 --> 00:30:52.049 oh, yeah, this is my life right now. 00:30:52.438 --> 00:30:56.991 And I think like one of the one of the big challenges is that we've set up this 00:30:56.991 --> 00:31:02.181 kind of false dichotomy of if you are an innovator and you do have a little 00:31:02.181 --> 00:31:06.691 bit of entrepreneurial spirit, you then like go start a tech company, which is great. 00:31:06.691 --> 00:31:09.341 Like Cameron Page, clear story. It's a great story. 00:31:09.881 --> 00:31:13.741 Lars, like domain expertise baked into these products. It's fantastic. 00:31:14.478 --> 00:31:20.893 But I do think, what is it going to take for an industrious PM and superintendent 00:31:21.067 --> 00:31:27.801 to rethink how project delivery looks and start these little boutique firms? 00:31:28.461 --> 00:31:34.381 And maybe, Lars, you're setting a little bit of a template. So maybe the question is. 00:31:36.861 --> 00:31:41.727 Why are the most innovative, entrepreneurially focused people in our industry 00:31:41.989 --> 00:31:43.324 automatically going into tech? 00:31:43.991 --> 00:31:51.015 Is that the only outlet, or is it because the barriers to entry on the contracting side seem harder? 00:31:53.505 --> 00:31:57.592 Go ahead, Jeff. I'll say, you go first. Or I guess is my assessment even true? 00:31:58.768 --> 00:32:04.072 No, your assessment is true, I think. I think there's a couple of things going on here, right? 00:32:04.414 --> 00:32:10.156 We still do have real problems, right? And the whole app fatigue thing was because 00:32:10.156 --> 00:32:14.706 there was like this burgeoning set of technology available and problems that 00:32:14.706 --> 00:32:17.988 existed and you'd bring it together, right? 00:32:18.331 --> 00:32:21.976 We still have those. And so, like you said, Cameron from Clear Story, 00:32:21.976 --> 00:32:26.776 like living in absolute nightmare pain and just said, there's got to be another 00:32:26.776 --> 00:32:30.376 way. And he had to ask himself so many times that, that he just went and solved it. Right. 00:32:31.073 --> 00:32:38.564 But I think there's an unnatural belief that you have to go to tech to keep being technical. 00:32:38.941 --> 00:32:42.516 And I'm probably going to get myself in trouble here, but, and I'm going to 00:32:42.516 --> 00:32:46.986 steal from a friend of mine, but there's also a lot of innovation theater in 00:32:46.986 --> 00:32:49.426 our industry that was used for marketing. 00:32:49.466 --> 00:32:56.280 And really burned a bunch of people up and they the only place they could go find somebody that that, 00:32:57.103 --> 00:33:01.876 i don't know accepted them cared for them really was about them was on the tech 00:33:01.876 --> 00:33:05.154 side right it was because especially because you know how valuable it is to 00:33:05.421 --> 00:33:10.854 to have true field experience to have true workflow knowledge and work at a technology company 00:33:11.226 --> 00:33:14.047 and that was a that's a problem on our end like, 00:33:14.909 --> 00:33:19.036 And a few of us have, I mean, I myself have contributed to that over time. 00:33:19.303 --> 00:33:23.634 Like if I could go back and change certain things that came out of my mouth 00:33:23.988 --> 00:33:26.374 today, I would in a second. 00:33:27.697 --> 00:33:35.535 I'd go back and edit some things out and hoped they never got into the wild. 00:33:35.535 --> 00:33:40.235 I would have hoped in some cases where my career went, I didn't allow it to 00:33:40.235 --> 00:33:45.145 go there because, you know, some of it is created by our own design. 00:33:45.145 --> 00:33:51.715 And we also didn't, again, we focused so much on, well, you've got this tech 00:33:51.715 --> 00:33:55.603 solved my problem. If I'm going to give you 20 grand, it better solve my damn problem. 00:33:56.043 --> 00:34:00.755 And it's like, well, no, actually, like I need time with it. 00:34:00.755 --> 00:34:07.795 I need to learn. I need a culture that's open to

change, but one that articulates 00:34:07.795 --> 00:34:11.585 risk involved in that change so that we can understand when we go from, 00:34:11.585 --> 00:34:14.264 you know, CAD drawing to BIM. 00:34:14.444 --> 00:34:17.715 Oh, by the way, we were talking about BIM and VDC, Stephen, during that whole 00:34:17.715 --> 00:34:20.435 time. I can't believe we talked about data and machine learning and computer 00:34:20.435 --> 00:34:24.300 vision. We never said like, remember BIM? This whole thing is called BIM. 00:34:24.805 --> 00:34:29.165 It's spelled B-I-M and it has this other one, V-D-C, you know, 00:34:29.165 --> 00:34:31.290 those things. We talked about those a lot. 00:34:32.148 --> 00:34:34.765 But we said we're going to do this BIM thing, right? And. 00:34:37.264 --> 00:34:40.828 We didn't create the culture. We didn't create the environment. 00:34:41.147 --> 00:34:47.626 We didn't give it its due to focus on how the heck are we going to use and transform 00:34:47.957 --> 00:34:52.531 from that CAD and that paper to that CAD, that CAD to that BIM, 00:34:52.873 --> 00:34:55.675 that BIM to that field, to all of those things. 00:34:55.675 --> 00:34:59.525 We just didn't give it its due or its focus. 00:34:59.948 --> 00:35:06.142 And we burned people out and they would go up and they'd have nowhere to go and they'd go out. 00:35:07.065 --> 00:35:09.707 Or we put them in a damn seat that it shouldn't have been in. 00:35:10.148 --> 00:35:13.648 How many BIM and VDC people you see became CIOs? 00:35:13.828 --> 00:35:16.835 And I will tell you right now, that is the wrong place. 00:35:17.726 --> 00:35:20.046 And there's a few of them out there listening right now that are going to kick 00:35:20.046 --> 00:35:21.705 me for that, but I don't care. 00:35:22.213 --> 00:35:28.267 You should be a CTO. I wish we didn't have this thing called construction technology. 00:35:28.928 --> 00:35:33.329 It should be operational technology. That's all it is. 00:35:33.863 --> 00:35:41.446 It's it's weaponizing in a good way the technology to do business and then we 00:35:41.446 --> 00:35:44.506 see it as what it is a tool and, 00:35:45.529 --> 00:35:49.086 i think i'm in there i think it's going there well i think we're on the way 00:35:49.086 --> 00:35:51.105 back around to it i i do agree. 00:35:52.871 --> 00:35:57.556 So first and foremost having a tech company isn't necessarily easier than having 00:35:57.556 --> 00:36:06.285 a construction company i'll just say that it's a whole new set of problems but you know for me was, 00:36:07.202 --> 00:36:12.273 digging ditches right covered every day and just being like, 00:36:13.959 --> 00:36:21.053 these platforms my tech stack continues to miss the mark on how to make my, 00:36:21.741 --> 00:36:26.058 my life but more importantly my employees like the guys that are doing it right 00:36:26.466 --> 00:36:29.011 easier they're missing the mark, 00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:34.061 and that was ultimately my motivation because it's like, 00:36:34.867 --> 00:36:36.736 and I could get into more details but it was like. 00:36:39.767 --> 00:36:45.745 That, I believe, is sometimes what can easily just go off track. 00:36:46.506 --> 00:36:52.462 It is this, how am I making the user experience, the employee's life as easy 00:36:52.462 --> 00:36:54.931 as possible and consolidating things? 00:36:55.181 --> 00:37:01.522 How can I take a holistic view at the app alphabet soup that we live in and 00:37:01.522 --> 00:37:02.598 say, wait a minute, wait a minute. 00:37:03.167 --> 00:37:06.634 Why do I have so many of these different things? I got six logins. 00:37:06.934 --> 00:37:10.250 It's just a requirement. How do I have a requirement software? 00:37:10.459 --> 00:37:16.595 Perfect. Let's go build one, you know, and, and just try to say, 00:37:16.838 --> 00:37:21.771 try to, again, it's like we have an app, but then we go back to Excel. 00:37:22.958 --> 00:37:28.155 To work with the app it's like well then that's a failure i think i think then we're missing, 00:37:28.771 --> 00:37:34.827 right so yeah i agree i mean i i think you know going back to this idea of like, 00:37:35.344 --> 00:37:38.148 innovation theater and how it maybe, 00:37:38.729 --> 00:37:42.948 capped the the value of some of these initiatives that we're investing in, 00:37:43.664 --> 00:37:48.904 what do we think is what do we think is in that category now you know i i give 00:37:48.904 --> 00:37:53.334 marketing a hard time on both sides of the fence tech and kind of contracting 00:37:53.334 --> 00:37:55.584 the world i i think both are guilty of. 00:37:57.077 --> 00:38:01.924 And maybe it's the essence of of marketing i don't know but i i think there is this idea of, 00:38:02.644 --> 00:38:07.484 there's an incredible opportunity for marketing to be based on storytelling 00:38:07.824 --> 00:38:11.664 real storytelling and i think often it moves away from that and it projects 00:38:11.664 --> 00:38:16.624 potential stories rather than the reality but to the question i think is what is what, 00:38:17.484 --> 00:38:19.467 what does innovation theater look like right now? 00:38:20.486 --> 00:38:25.534 Oh, for me, it is a lot of these vibe coded. 00:38:25.534 --> 00:38:31.334 Oh, I can, you know, I can kill your, your project management system tonight 00:38:31.334 --> 00:38:34.894 with a vibe code sash and push it out there. 00:38:34.894 --> 00:38:38.944 And then even sitting across from, from people who are now, 00:38:39.484 --> 00:38:44.344 you know, able to code things in ways they couldn't before and thinking, 00:38:44.344 --> 00:38:46.624 okay, well, I'm going to go back to this build it, build it, 00:38:46.624 --> 00:38:49.664 build it it used to be you know pretty financially, 00:38:50.204 --> 00:38:54.154 it was too much right to do it in the old way and hire the developers and whatnot 00:38:54.154 --> 00:38:58.855 now they're thinking oh well you know this new generation person can vibe code

this thing right and, 00:38:59.744 --> 00:39:02.117 but those those who have been through it and like Lars said it's you know, 00:39:02.774 --> 00:39:06.501 pick your poison. It's a different set of problems, but it's not easy in tech, right? 00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:13.219 There's dev environments, there's QA environments, there's your pilot testing 00:39:13.219 --> 00:39:16.729 environments, and then your production environment. And then as you scale, 00:39:16.729 --> 00:39:20.419 it becomes a very difficult thing to manage that technology over time and that 00:39:20.419 --> 00:39:22.653 growth and that tech debt and all of that stuff. 00:39:22.903 --> 00:39:25.199 And I'm like, well, is that what you do? 00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.539 Or do you build things? Because again, goes back to like, who are you? 00:39:30.859 --> 00:39:35.059 Well, we're a construction company, and this is what we do. Should I be connecting 00:39:35.059 --> 00:39:39.057 things and have those aptitudes in some of them? Absolutely. 00:39:39.654 --> 00:39:44.080 But I should be also operating more like a real mature business, right? 00:39:44.382 --> 00:39:49.059 And pushing towards consistently analyzing what I do, having business analysts, 00:39:49.059 --> 00:39:53.959 having operational technologists, having true IT and IT security, 00:39:54.279 --> 00:39:58.927 and then leadership that's plugged in and vulnerable to. 00:39:59.571 --> 00:40:02.199 You don't know what's next, right? 00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:06.323 This is just this thing that's come around now. Who knows what's coming next at us? 00:40:06.688 --> 00:40:09.991 And no one person can know it all. 00:40:10.433 --> 00:40:14.647 So you have to surround yourself in a circle of trust, 00:40:15.099 --> 00:40:21.828 where you can be vulnerable to learn new things and keep the ship going, 00:40:22.135 --> 00:40:27.469 but know, look, I'll go back to you, Lars, before you were talking about the Navy. 00:40:27.469 --> 00:40:32.399 Well, I'm pretty sure the captain knew how the engine worked when it was all 00:40:32.399 --> 00:40:34.121 the way down at that level. 00:40:34.736 --> 00:40:37.979 But I don't know that he knows the new hydraulic systems and how they're put 00:40:37.979 --> 00:40:41.359 together. But he's up there steering the boat. And if the boat don't go where 00:40:41.359 --> 00:40:43.919 it should, he's calling somebody to fix it, right? 00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:48.839 And he's trusting that they know what they do. This is the same thing we do 00:40:48.839 --> 00:40:52.059 in construction with technology. You've got to know where the business is going 00:40:52.059 --> 00:40:53.718 to go. You've got to know what that is. 00:40:54.062 --> 00:40:58.829 But you've got to have trust and faith that the people working on the engines 00:40:58.829 --> 00:41:01.108 of the business are good at it. 00:41:01.815 --> 00:41:06.007 And if they're not, the problem isn't them, it's you. 00:41:06.644 --> 00:41:11.616 Man, that's a banger right there, Jeff. I think that sounds dangerously like 00:41:11.616 --> 00:41:13.246 humility, which times... 00:41:13.626 --> 00:41:17.536 Thoughtcrackers are no humility. Yes, they are. A little bit allergic to that. 00:41:18.087 --> 00:41:21.467 Very low egos, not prideful. 00:41:22.434 --> 00:41:26.706 You know, I think, you know, one of the things I've always appreciated about 00:41:26.706 --> 00:41:31.306 your approach to the industry, Jeff, is you're a truth teller and you kind of say how things are. 00:41:31.706 --> 00:41:34.444 And obviously that's evident in this conversation. And I think, 00:41:35.089 --> 00:41:38.506 and, and, you know, I've been on the tech side as well, and I can, 00:41:38.506 --> 00:41:45.146 I feel the tension that that kind of perspective can have in that environment. 00:41:45.486 --> 00:41:49.486 How have you navigated that from, you know, you were at Join, 00:41:49.486 --> 00:41:51.937 obviously you're at Bluebeam now. 00:41:52.826 --> 00:41:56.296 Obviously there's a big benefit to having a true teller like you in that environment 00:41:56.296 --> 00:42:01.476 so you can help inform product and direction and push back and but i think i 00:42:01.476 --> 00:42:06.026 when i was at versatile or when i was you know consulting i think there was always this pressure, 00:42:06.473 --> 00:42:10.816 to position your product as as the thing that's going to solve everything and 00:42:10.816 --> 00:42:15.666 knowing that it's not can can create some conflict how have you navigated that well, 00:42:16.606 --> 00:42:20.135 i've stumbled along the way i'll be honest i've made some of my own mistakes for sure. 00:42:21.084 --> 00:42:25.884 I'd say I'm glad you picked where you were because I made my mistakes, I think, before join. 00:42:26.355 --> 00:42:30.317 And thankfully, when I got to join, for me, a lot of it came together. 00:42:30.740 --> 00:42:37.296 Because at that point, I had realized like, hey, when and we covered this in 00:42:37.296 --> 00:42:40.366 the beginning, like when you come to me and we'll use join in particular, 00:42:40.366 --> 00:42:42.668 right, a collaborative project delivery platform, right? 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:47.576 So when we get to the table, the first question is, how much of your work is 00:42:47.576 --> 00:42:55.306 design build, you know is you know cmgc or you know ipd none well this conversation's 00:42:55.306 --> 00:42:57.122 over it was good to talk to you though you know. 00:42:58.221 --> 00:43:02.604 And I learned this early, like we used to, I used to do demos for another company 00:43:02.604 --> 00:43:06.294 and I'd be like an hour and a half into the demo showing them everything. 00:43:06.294 --> 00:43:08.506 I asked a question, I show them this, I show them that. 00:43:09.162 --> 00:43:13.694 And my, my, you know, AM would be like, yeah, you got them, man. 00:43:13.694 --> 00:43:16.088 And they'd never buy it. Never buy it. 00:43:16.887 --> 00:43:22.594 And

I was like, but I showed him, I go, yeah, no, you got in the weeds, 00:43:22.594 --> 00:43:27.304 you showed him picks and clicks and things. And it's like, you should have just 00:43:27.304 --> 00:43:29.690 asked a few questions and gotten to know. 00:43:30.294 --> 00:43:36.394 And ultimately, being able to turn to the company and say, getting to know faster 00:43:36.394 --> 00:43:40.006 than maybe is saves us all time and money. 00:43:40.557 --> 00:43:46.287 And if we give it to them and it is wrong for them, they're going to tell everybody. 00:43:46.478 --> 00:43:49.464 And we're not going to be able to be over there saying, oh, no, 00:43:49.464 --> 00:43:51.645 it's because they don't do that type of work. 00:43:52.463 --> 00:43:59.664 It's not going to work. So you have to teach back into the company the value 00:43:59.664 --> 00:44:04.067 of understanding where you do and don't fit and telling a true story, 00:44:04.589 --> 00:44:08.214 that actually aligns with the problems that they have. 00:44:08.214 --> 00:44:12.584 Where you get out of whack is you're right. You make those problems up. 00:44:12.584 --> 00:44:15.055 You assume those problems exist. 00:44:15.720 --> 00:44:19.654 But on the other side is I've watched and I've interviewed so many founders. 00:44:20.694 --> 00:44:25.188 And people starting technology companies that make construction people feel stupid. 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:31.394 And you're like, hey, that's where I lead with this. That's what I say. I say this all the time. 00:44:31.734 --> 00:44:35.374 When I build my own Legos, they condemn them. OSHA comes into my house and is 00:44:35.374 --> 00:44:36.306 like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't do that. 00:44:37.415 --> 00:44:39.374 You can't do that. You don't know what you're doing, man. No, 00:44:39.374 --> 00:44:41.374 please don't, please don't do that. 00:44:42.633 --> 00:44:46.864 And it's because that's not what I'm good at, right? I'm really good at IT and 00:44:46.864 --> 00:44:49.019 technology and understanding how it works together. 00:44:50.305 --> 00:44:54.601 And they'll be like, oh, you're so smart. No, I'm, I'm talented in that area. Yeah. 00:44:54.921 --> 00:44:59.271 But I can't build anything. A mason in the field, you know, putting brick and 00:44:59.271 --> 00:45:03.811 block together. And at the end of the day, it's a structure that works or tying 00:45:03.811 --> 00:45:07.061 rebar and knowing where it goes and setting up correctly and setting up the 00:45:07.061 --> 00:45:09.686 forms. And then a freaking wall comes out of it. 00:45:10.377 --> 00:45:11.978 That's it's magic. 00:45:12.734 --> 00:45:17.701 Right. It's really freaking cool. And then all these people that, 00:45:17.701 --> 00:45:21.921 you know, were pipe fitters and steam fitters and electricians, 00:45:21.921 --> 00:45:24.506 and they were doing everything and pulling every cable and everything. 00:45:24.790 --> 00:45:29.049 And now they're like, hey, I think we could do this

in a shop and then we can, 00:45:29.629 --> 00:45:31.371 drive it there and just click it in. 00:45:32.022 --> 00:45:39.608 That's genius. So have a set of humility, but also like a reverence for what they do. 00:45:40.049 --> 00:45:43.101 Like, it's not like there's a greatest thing. 00:45:43.521 --> 00:45:48.011 Dustin Burns said this to me at this event years ago. He said, 00:45:48.011 --> 00:45:53.506 how many of you slept in your bed last night and worried if it was going to fall through the floor? 00:45:54.461 --> 00:45:58.595 He said, that's because somebody, an architect, an engineer, 00:45:58.851 --> 00:46:03.401 a contractor, all came together to build you something that that's not what 00:46:03.401 --> 00:46:06.668 you worry about. You worry about if the neighbor next door is too loud, 00:46:07.069 --> 00:46:08.404 not going through the floor. It's crazy. 00:46:08.688 --> 00:46:12.229 Well, how about flushing the toilet or turning your lights on or turning your sink on? 00:46:12.485 --> 00:46:16.541 Basic stuff you're welcome you're welcome yeah and, 00:46:17.061 --> 00:46:21.251 this is where this is where i'm passionate it's just like oh that's just those 00:46:21.251 --> 00:46:26.321 are just laborers they're they're that's blue collar are you kidding me you're 00:46:26.321 --> 00:46:27.919 welcome you're welcome yeah, 00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:30.694 and say thank you. 00:46:32.564 --> 00:46:36.417 Well, but I think that's where we're maybe even returning back to the mean a 00:46:36.417 --> 00:46:38.127 little bit, which is like AI, 00:46:39.187 --> 00:46:45.827 has accelerated the, yes, appreciation of the digital, but also it has reminded 00:46:45.827 --> 00:46:47.755 us of our reliance on the physical. 00:46:49.015 --> 00:46:53.630 And, you know, you only have so much fiber cable and you only have so much compute 00:46:53.775 --> 00:46:55.727 because of physical data centers. 00:46:56.327 --> 00:47:00.957 And so I think there is a return. But yeah, I love that. 00:47:00.957 --> 00:47:06.757 I think, I wonder if, and I think this is returning, I think that message is 00:47:06.757 --> 00:47:11.127 starting to hit home and the economics of maybe the challenges for the next 00:47:11.127 --> 00:47:12.007 generation are helping. 00:47:12.327 --> 00:47:18.557 But I do think the numbers are starting to show that trade schools are increasing 00:47:18.557 --> 00:47:21.771 in numbers. So I think maybe the message is finally getting through. 00:47:23.187 --> 00:47:26.847 And I think, too, we also haven't really taken this step back. 00:47:26.847 --> 00:47:31.567 And it's funny, I just I just commented on somebody's post on LinkedIn about 00:47:31.567 --> 00:47:35.677 this is like they felt like the world was splitting into two. 00:47:35.677 --> 00:47:38.827 You know, like they were going, you know, the people who do it that way and 00:47:38.827 --> 00:47:41.597 always have and always will. And then these new technology people. 00:47:41.597 -->

00:47:45.627 And I said, I think because of the complexity of this industry, 00:47:45.627 --> 00:47:49.771 we're like the caterpillar becoming the butterfly. 00:47:50.044 --> 00:47:55.747 But unfortunately we're inside you know the chrysalis as it's forming and we're 00:47:55.747 --> 00:47:59.857 unfortunately seeing all the dirty things that happen and we're feeling this 00:47:59.857 --> 00:48:01.607 move here and move there and. 00:48:02.560 --> 00:48:07.747 Because ultimately too like like you said we went through that whole gap and 00:48:07.747 --> 00:48:11.088 having the labor but we also didn't understand that like, 00:48:11.668 --> 00:48:17.177 that labor now can be equipped with way more technology that they love and can 00:48:17.177 --> 00:48:23.497 be taught to build things and then can help us learn new, exciting ways to do 00:48:23.497 --> 00:48:25.020 it better, more efficiently. 00:48:25.871 --> 00:48:30.529 And, and become and feel like craftspeople. That's one of the other things that, 00:48:30.529 --> 00:48:33.399 you know, when I got in here 10 years ago into the industry, 00:48:33.399 --> 00:48:35.334 it's 11 years ago now in the industry. 00:48:35.943 --> 00:48:39.803 And we finished our first job at the masonry company and we drove by it to look at it. 00:48:40.152 --> 00:48:44.459 And I did the IT for the, for the iPhones. Right. And, and, and actually, 00:48:44.459 --> 00:48:46.929 believe it or not, rolled out blue beam to that team. Right. 00:48:46.929 --> 00:48:49.312 And I was like, ah, we built that. 00:48:49.713 --> 00:48:53.278 And the first time I said that, I was like, oh, wow. 00:48:53.955 --> 00:48:59.929 That's why people love this that's how that feels oh, 00:49:00.608 --> 00:49:05.679 okay okay there's something to this that's why this and that's where this industry 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:07.609 needs to get back to is like, 00:49:08.143 --> 00:49:13.049 and you know and then I had good friends say like hey you wanna hear great stories 00:49:13.049 --> 00:49:19.341 just get a PM or an old super in a car drive through their city and just listen. 00:49:21.169 --> 00:49:27.549 And feel though So feel how the pride and, 00:49:28.989 --> 00:49:33.569 just feel that and then realize that unfortunately, like the way we're organized 00:49:33.569 --> 00:49:37.809 as an industry and the way that we're beginning to be digitized, 00:49:37.809 --> 00:49:41.949 et cetera, and going through, like we created adversarial environments. 00:49:41.949 --> 00:49:46.529 You know, I'm making the same joke since I started, like how many people end 00:49:46.529 --> 00:49:49.322 a job and they're like, yeah, let's do it again. 00:49:49.950 --> 00:49:54.539 No they're like oh crap all right let's get the punch list out let's get the 00:49:54.539 --> 00:50:00.003 final billing across i hate you i hate you see you on the next job like, 00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:06.479 who we don't we don't need to do that right and and also too i think this could 00:50:06.479 --> 00:50:11.394 go and be really really well applied if you were to say, 00:50:12.125 --> 00:50:18.202 bring the curiosity of i don't know everything and no one can so that's okay, 00:50:18.795 --> 00:50:22.647 and teach me what you know, right? In my time at JOIN, 00:50:23.686 --> 00:50:26.633 I learned that the true problem in pre-construction. 00:50:29.253 --> 00:50:32.133 Really isn't the technology. It really isn't what's going on. 00:50:32.614 --> 00:50:37.483 It's that we come to the table with an idea that we want to win, right? 00:50:37.483 --> 00:50:42.813 I want to win my way of doing things instead of everybody coming together and 00:50:42.813 --> 00:50:47.423 realizing electricians are great at what they do, framers and drywallers and 00:50:47.423 --> 00:50:49.203 masons and mechanicals. 00:50:49.696 --> 00:50:55.103 And me as the GC or the architect, I need to be curious and learn from them 00:50:55.103 --> 00:50:58.264 on what's going to make this easier, faster, better. 00:50:58.851 --> 00:51:01.773 And how can we all come out with maybe a little bit different, 00:51:01.773 --> 00:51:04.873 like, hey, I understand you want to fab that this way. 00:51:04.873 --> 00:51:09.203 But for the design intent, what I want, I want a little bit more of this. 00:51:09.203 --> 00:51:12.493 OK, that's how I that's that's the intent of this thing. Oh, okay. 00:51:12.493 --> 00:51:16.861 Well, we're going to, and then if we could kind of go towards that, 00:51:17.383 --> 00:51:22.313 we'd incorporate way more prefabrication. We get ahead of things better. 00:51:22.313 --> 00:51:24.968 We get to design for manufacturing and assembly. 00:51:25.526 --> 00:51:30.073 We don't get there because we're too busy fighting with one another instead 00:51:30.073 --> 00:51:36.114 of just being humble and curious about each other and then bringing those things together. 00:51:37.874 --> 00:51:42.799 I mean, that incentive structure kind of side of this whole conversation is, 00:51:43.874 --> 00:51:47.094 I feel like never, never fully sussed out well enough. 00:51:47.228 --> 00:51:51.554 Like, I think, you know, IPD has like scratched a certain element of that and, 00:51:52.034 --> 00:51:53.134 maybe not successfully. 00:51:53.134 --> 00:51:58.414 So, but yeah, there's a whole maybe other episode just on incentive structures. 00:51:58.414 --> 00:52:02.114 I do want to, I want to go through like a little bit of a lightning round on 00:52:02.114 --> 00:52:08.294 claims and have you kind of give your response to some of these claims that 00:52:08.294 --> 00:52:10.126 we've heard in the industry over the years, right? 00:52:10.295 --> 00:52:15.148 So here's the first one. It was never a tech averse industry. It was just bad tech. 00:52:17.665 --> 00:52:24.498 True. Yes. Are we like rating these? Yes. And I say agree, disagree, 00:52:25.087 --> 00:52:28.594 or provide your narrative. I guess we are always going to provide your narrative.

00:52:28.594 --> 00:52:30.670 Agree or disagree? You got to pick one. 00:52:31.001 --> 00:52:33.388 Ooh, I like this. We're going to squeeze you here. 00:52:34.136 --> 00:52:37.664 Agree. If you disagree, you can agree, disagree, and then you can provide the 00:52:37.664 --> 00:52:38.657 narrative on the back end. Agree. 00:52:39.474 --> 00:52:44.134 Agree. It was a timing problem that nobody saw coming because how do you have 00:52:44.134 --> 00:52:48.844 internet where there is no internet yet? There is no electricity yet. 00:52:48.844 --> 00:52:52.763 There is no any of that. Last mile created a whole bunch of problems. 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:58.274 And so a lot of things became accounting heavy, office heavy, 00:52:58.274 --> 00:52:59.729 because that's where the internet was. 00:53:00.117 --> 00:53:05.024 And so in some respects, it was just life, man. They weren't averse to it. 00:53:05.024 --> 00:53:06.276 It wasn't available to them. 00:53:06.854 --> 00:53:09.683 And it couldn't be. And it wasn't bad tech. You couldn't get it to them. 00:53:10.066 --> 00:53:15.314 So I think ultimately, it was a little bit of both, but we've changed over time. 00:53:16.803 --> 00:53:22.068 Only 20% of AEC firms are using AI for real work. 00:53:23.121 --> 00:53:26.614 Well, that was a statistic I think we got from Bluebeam a year ago, 00:53:26.614 --> 00:53:28.978 and I would say that that has doubled or more now. 00:53:29.408 --> 00:53:34.608 So I would agree at the time it was taken, and I would disagree now because it's more now. 00:53:35.874 --> 00:53:39.247 And I think that number in a year will be even higher. 00:53:39.940 --> 00:53:43.904 Then why are the drawings that I'm getting aren't coordinated or anything? 00:53:43.904 --> 00:53:47.114 I'd love to I'd love to have someone sorry sorry Jeff. 00:53:49.065 --> 00:53:54.421 Okay okay you the barrier to adoption is complexity culture and connection not cost, 00:53:55.554 --> 00:54:00.484 agree and and I would double down on complexity the complexity of the organizations 00:54:00.484 --> 00:54:03.894 of this of what we do and what we build and how we build it and what we are 00:54:03.894 --> 00:54:10.464 asking to be built at the scheduled framework we're asking for it at is really really hard. 00:54:10.464 --> 00:54:16.448 And I think, to be honest, the cost of time has exceeded the cost of the software these days. 00:54:16.784 --> 00:54:22.704 So I do truly believe, and we did an MEP innovation report. If anybody hasn't 00:54:22.704 --> 00:54:27.934 seen it, go take a look. But that's what 700 of the leading mechanical, 00:54:27.934 --> 00:54:29.821 electrical, and plumbers in the world told us. 00:54:30.111 --> 00:54:32.938 It's true. We'll adopt it. We got the money for it. 00:54:33.640 --> 00:54:37.239 The complexity of getting it done, learning it, and getting people off of work 00:54:37.454 --> 00:54:44.285 long enough to learn it and implement it, So it's a complexity issue for sure. I agree

with that. 00:54:45.919 --> 00:54:52.294 Here's a, there's a curve ball in five years, Excel will still be a go-to for 00:54:52.294 --> 00:54:55.872 PMs for day-to-day solving things. 00:54:56.870 --> 00:55:03.440 Okay. So I, oh, this is a hard one. Cause I would split the industry into two here. 00:55:04.111 --> 00:55:10.606 I would disagree at the large scale level, right? Where we're large scale projects. 00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:14.534 Nah, you know what? I'm going to agree. I'm not going to lose out on that one. 00:55:14.534 --> 00:55:17.171 I'm going to agree because I've been doing this for too long. 00:55:17.468 --> 00:55:19.387 My hope is to disagree. 00:55:20.209 --> 00:55:24.064 But if you asked me for my wallet and you said everything in your wallet, 00:55:24.064 --> 00:55:26.571 you have to put it on, you know, black or red. 00:55:27.257 --> 00:55:32.724 I'm going to agree. If they're using it for process and, you know, 00:55:32.724 --> 00:55:36.264 I'll call it workflows and things like that. I think I would disagree. 00:55:36.264 --> 00:55:37.980 I see it as a scratch pad. It's easy. 00:55:38.182 --> 00:55:42.564 I'm just going to go here just to just to just to just to turn some things that 00:55:42.564 --> 00:55:45.775 Lars. Of course, I hope you're right, but I just... 00:55:46.674 --> 00:55:51.134 It's like use case related, right? I don't see it being used as a database as 00:55:51.134 --> 00:55:56.311 much in the future and more of a tool for solving specific issues. 00:55:56.544 --> 00:55:59.654 I mean, Claude has an integration into the Office suite at this point. 00:55:59.654 --> 00:56:02.383 Uh-oh. Then I'm glad Jeff agreed. So smart move. 00:56:05.133 --> 00:56:08.621 All right, Jeff, I know we're running out of time and you got to catch a flight. What is... 00:56:09.150 --> 00:56:12.584 You know, you've spent a number of years, we've talked about this asking folks 00:56:12.584 --> 00:56:18.244 about the future it'd be two part question one bullish or bearish on where we're 00:56:18.244 --> 00:56:20.707 heading and then two what. 00:56:22.849 --> 00:56:28.109 What is an outlandish claim that you would want to make about where we're heading 00:56:28.109 --> 00:56:30.578 in the next five, seven years? I'm bullish. 00:56:32.429 --> 00:56:36.799 I just believe in this industry. I just believe, I mean, we're not going to 00:56:36.799 --> 00:56:40.359 stop wanting new stadiums. We're not going to stop wanting to consume AI. 00:56:40.359 --> 00:56:43.989 And by the way, if you want to consume AI, somebody's got to give you the capacity 00:56:43.989 --> 00:56:45.427 and we're the ones who build it. 00:56:46.489 --> 00:56:51.365 We have an energy structure. We have water waste water. We have infrastructure. 00:56:51.632 --> 00:56:56.239 We have so many things, a housing crisis ahead of us that I'm bullish that this 00:56:56.239 --> 00:56:57.600 industry is the place to be. 00:56:58.122 --> 00:57:03.695 And I also think that as we modernize and culture seeps in and we change, 00:57:04.269 --> 00:57:06.279 we're really going to be a place. 00:57:06.279 --> 00:57:11.439 Like you said, Stephen, we're seeing more and more kids come into our training 00:57:11.439 --> 00:57:15.139 centers and into the trades because they want to have an impact. 00:57:15.139 --> 00:57:20.841 Something about this generation coming in that's true is they've been let down over time. 00:57:21.393 --> 00:57:25.050 And our industry doesn't let them down because they do build things. 00:57:25.439 --> 00:57:34.218 And this is an outlandish claim is that I was completely wrong about AR and VR. 00:57:34.781 --> 00:57:41.119 And the truth is the knowledge and the insights that we're going to get are 00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:44.238 going to come from the tools in the hands, 00:57:44.690 --> 00:57:49.599 of the labor that are installing and doing things and feeding back to us and 00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.967 we're going to learn more about our industry than we ever thought we could 00:57:54.298 --> 00:57:59.739 through that connected tool ecosystem and they will become cobotics like we're 00:57:59.739 --> 00:58:02.581 seeing with DeWalt and like we're seeing with. 00:58:03.683 --> 00:58:09.847 Dig robotics and others there's gonna be this coalescing where the the 00:58:10.227 --> 00:58:16.919 caterpillar becomes the butterfly and we realize we're not taking jobs we're amplifying humans 00:58:17.279 --> 00:58:23.067 and we're building and creating safer structures you know Lars you saw it yesterday 00:58:23.067 --> 00:58:27.727 sparky with the hook while you were here like what hard hat right wasn't it 00:58:27.727 --> 00:58:29.627 hard hat robotics I had no 00:58:30.007 --> 00:58:34.171 idea before I was introduced of this that a human puts themselves in a suit, 00:58:34.798 --> 00:58:39.327 and and and electrifies something and there's someone there with a hook to pull 00:58:39.327 --> 00:58:44.777 them off if it goes wrong and instead we can put a robotic arm in hit the button 00:58:44.777 --> 00:58:48.487 and watch it and you know what if the metal melts the metal melts 00:58:48.807 --> 00:58:54.216 screw it we're fine and we're not going to put humans into that place anymore and now as a father, 00:58:54.698 --> 00:58:59.197 i'm not going to care if my son or my daughter want to go do that because now 00:58:59.197 --> 00:59:03.925 i believe that they're going to be not only safe but they're going to be satisfied and, 00:59:04.522 --> 00:59:11.982 they're going to get paid and that is as a father as a human as a as a pro construction, 00:59:12.522 --> 00:59:15.847 i think that's the future man yeah i love that, 00:59:16.857 --> 00:59:22.987 lars any uh final thoughts no this is great agree agree thank you jeff you're 00:59:22.987 --> 00:59:27.467 the man thanks for coming on man and safe travels back to your next spot yeah 00:59:27.467 --> 00:59:28.980 final thought for you steven. 00:59:30.408 --> 00:59:34.425 Keep the podcast going thank you for coming into the industry and doing it, 00:59:35.587 --> 00:59:38.397 I believe that the more of us that are out there doing this the better we are 00:59:38.397 --> 00:59:42.517 we are better and bigger together so thanks for doing it and thanks for having 00:59:42.517 --> 00:59:45.447 me on and yeah keep doing what you're doing it's always been great to catch 00:59:45.447 --> 00:59:49.144 up with you man so I will see you somewhere soon and, 00:59:49.907 --> 00:59:53.547 thanks for having me on the show appreciate that Jeff yeah we'll see you at 00:59:53.927 --> 00:59:58.632 the next conference one of these days you got it take it easy guys.