Why This Therapist Says Connection Is Key to Quitting Porn의 전체 녹취록

And so yeah, my life's work gets to be to help other children and teens and young adults navigate those exact same things. 02:30.870 --> 02:32.031 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is incredible. 02:32.332 --> 02:35.695 [SPEAKER_00]: What are these teens and young adults experiencing that you're working with? 02:36.198 --> 02:36.999 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure. 02:37.679 --> 02:40.722 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. 02:40.982 --> 02:43.084 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm depending on when this is released. 02:43.244 --> 02:46.446 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll be a registered play therapist, which is pretty cool. 02:46.546 --> 02:47.767 [SPEAKER_03]: I get to play for a living. 02:48.608 --> 02:54.513 [SPEAKER_03]: And I work with, you know, children, teens in the private practice, young adults. 02:54.673 --> 03:00.798 [SPEAKER_03]: I work with a charter school here seeing students who are literally from everywhere. 03:01.879 --> 03:16.898 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm seeing, you know, everything that you're seeing in maybe a younger version, depending on what age we're talking about, we're seeing a lot of trauma, a lot of numbing, I see a lot of absent fathers. 03:18.122 --> 03:31.461 [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of distracted mothers and the behaviors, those negative behaviors, those internalizing feelings like guilt and shame that are coming from the child wondering, am I valuable? 03:31.681 --> 03:34.065 [SPEAKER_03]: Do I have someone who really loves me in my life? 03:35.258 --> 03:35.478 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 03:36.038 --> 03:50.186 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you work with these young adults, do you see kind of what you experienced yourself in them with the traumas you experienced and the coping mechanisms that you had, how does your own experience relate to that? 03:51.806 --> 03:55.028 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, as a therapist, I can't put my own experiences on them. 03:55.068 --> 04:02.472 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to really listen, which I think is the beauty of it is truly understanding and the line that I get the most often is my parents just don't understand. 04:03.665 --> 04:05.247 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that they don't provide for me. 04:05.788 --> 04:07.910 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that they're maybe not even in the home. 04:08.010 --> 04:10.313 [SPEAKER_03]: It's that they don't quite understand. 04:11.655 --> 04:14.038 [SPEAKER_03]: So when I look at their experiences, 04:15.801 --> 04:23.347 [SPEAKER_03]: I get the joy, maybe not even maybe of being sometimes the first person that they've told about this. 04:23.407 --> 04:24.868 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure we're going to get into this. 04:24.888 --> 04:31.293 [SPEAKER_03]: We're like, what's the root and the byproduct of unwanted sexual behavior? 04:31.393 --> 04:33.915 [SPEAKER_03]: It's shame and loneliness and isolation. 04:33.935 --> 04:39.039 [SPEAKER_03]: They haven't actually ever shared this thing with another human being out loud. 04:39.559 --> 04:42.702 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I get to be a part of that, which is just an honor. 04:43.507 --> 04:54.015 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which it's such important work, especially for young people to have safe spaces to process through these things and be able to find healthier paths forward. 04:54.535 --> 05:00.439 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask you, your work, you really specialize and working with young people who are navigating addiction and trauma. 05:01.060 --> 05:05.223 [SPEAKER_00]: And what really led you to focus in on that and to specialize? 05:06.327 --> 05:20.083 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, sort of force my hand by being a in private practice like right out of the gate of my grad program And they ask you add nauseam just what are you gonna specialize in who is your population? 05:20.544 --> 05:24.308 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sitting here like I want to isolate myself to like one thing 05:25.970 --> 05:41.819 [SPEAKER_03]: But what you've already brought up is like what about my story is happening across from me and the reality is I'm going to do my best work when I am providing something that I wish happened in my own life right I was met with 05:43.140 --> 05:51.574 [SPEAKER_03]: probably okay responses when I revealed that I was looking at pornography and masturbating and not wanting to do that anymore. 05:51.774 --> 05:55.500 [SPEAKER_03]: I was met with okay, certainly not like a quipped, and so 05:56.818 --> 06:04.241 [SPEAKER_03]: I get to offer responses that are healing rather than shameful and it's not even intent. 06:04.621 --> 06:06.222 [SPEAKER_03]: That wasn't the intent. 06:06.282 --> 06:13.425 [SPEAKER_03]: The number one thing I remember hearing when I shared this as maybe a young teen like 14 years old was you're going to ruin your marriage. 06:14.425 --> 06:19.247 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, as I'm learning, that is probably coming from the person who's saying it. 06:19.287 --> 06:20.148 [SPEAKER_03]: That's their stuff. 06:21.068 --> 06:22.449 [SPEAKER_03]: What I would have loved to hear was 06:24.149 --> 06:26.650 [SPEAKER_03]: Man, it took a lot of courage to share that, I bet. 06:27.330 --> 06:32.012 [SPEAKER_03]: And you're actually valuable now and not just if you are married in the future. 06:33.392 --> 06:34.152 [SPEAKER_00]: Very well said. 06:34.993 --> 06:53.379 [SPEAKER_00]: In that, for our listeners, I would apply to anyone who's a teenager, but also an adult who is single and this is something that comes up a lot with adults who aren't in relationships, is like it feels like so often pornography is considered harmful of a harmful in relationships, but it also can have negative impacts on individuals 06:54.239 --> 07:03.485 [SPEAKER_00]: And that journey is worthy of exploring or exploration for, you know, a relationship with yourself, not only each other. 07:03.605 --> 07:04.285 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's right. 07:04.766 --> 07:13.111 [SPEAKER_03]: Your sexual story is valuable right now and not just at some time in the future because some partner comes along. 07:15.232 -->

07:16.013 [SPEAKER_00]: Brilliantly said. 07:17.623 --> 07:21.084 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's important for us to remember, both for young people and for adults. 07:21.464 --> 07:35.089 [SPEAKER_00]: When looking at addiction, are you working with young people who are, you know, both struggling with addiction themselves and then also dealing with the effects of a parent's addiction or or just the effects of a parent's addiction or how common is that in your work? 07:35.169 --> 07:35.970 [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm. 07:36.990 --> 07:39.111 [SPEAKER_03]: We're generational trauma, right? 07:39.151 --> 07:39.871 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the word. 07:41.351 --> 07:42.572 [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't dawn on me until, 07:44.433 --> 07:59.941 [SPEAKER_03]: maybe recently as an adult doing therapy, even after I saw someone for the first time at 25, you know my dad had some unwanted sexual behavior, some unwanted relational issues. 08:01.659 --> 08:26.199 [SPEAKER_03]: in his romantic relationships and that that was passed down a hundred percent right whether it was conscious whether I really understood was happening and so if I'm seeing a child who's got some behavior issues that's telling a story and it's it's probably coming from their environment and particularly from their parents you know one of the reasons that I love working with teens 08:27.440 --> 08:36.903 [SPEAKER_03]: is because we get to work on the stuff as it's happening versus when they're 35 and they're talking about when they were 14 and their relationship with their parents. 08:36.923 --> 08:48.828 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, the addiction of the child, the addictive tendencies, and the addiction of the parent, I think are totally connected, you know, and if I'm thinking about like a sticky 08:50.488 --> 09:01.696 [SPEAKER_03]: situation, it would be with like, how do you have a conversation with your 14-year-old boy who you've caught looking at porn when you yourself as the father are looking at porn too? 09:02.577 --> 09:02.817 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 09:03.838 --> 09:07.080 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you tell someone who's in that situation as a parent? 09:08.995 --> 09:14.816 [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it said that recovery begins for your child when you begin recovery as a parent. 09:15.796 --> 09:28.399 [SPEAKER_03]: So don't expect your child to get better in their unwanted sexual behavior or unwanted explosive behavior for that matter, in the classroom, until you as a parent are ready to sit down and work on your own self. 09:29.379 --> 09:35.360 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well said, from your perspective, what are some of the biggest challenges facing 09:38.978 --> 09:50.668 [SPEAKER_03]: specifically in the technology world, I give you in a metaphor that I share about what's happening with teen boys and particularly addictive things and sexually addictive things. 09:51.288 --> 09:59.655 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's as if as a society were a family, we drew them off a bridge into deep water, right? 09:59.976 --> 10:01.497 [SPEAKER_03]: And the car is sinking. 10:03.018 --> 10:16.011 [SPEAKER_03]: And a long time ago, the pressure of the water that's trying to get in the car, these sexually explicit and sexually unwanted content, let's say, we're not very high, right? 10:16.051 --> 10:21.236 [SPEAKER_03]: You had to like physically go to a different location to act out. 10:21.776 --> 10:24.439 [SPEAKER_03]: You weren't able to see content right in front of your eyes. 10:25.816 --> 10:28.717 [SPEAKER_03]: So the car is sinking, the pressure is building. 10:29.717 --> 10:37.019 [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, you have parents in the front seat who are kind of like trying to make sure everything keeps safe. 10:37.059 --> 10:38.039 [SPEAKER_03]: The water doesn't get in. 10:38.299 --> 10:39.879 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a kind of our natural thing. 10:41.180 --> 10:44.641 [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, your team boy or team girl is in the back. 10:45.201 --> 10:50.302 [SPEAKER_03]: It used to be that we gave them a how-to manual on how to get out of the car. 10:50.342 --> 10:53.723 [SPEAKER_03]: Because developmentally, we want to see what's outside of this car. 10:55.873 --> 10:58.095 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a how to manual, you had to flip through it. 10:58.135 --> 10:59.596 [SPEAKER_03]: It was really cumbersome. 11:00.537 --> 11:08.704 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we gave them, instead of a book, we gave them a brick, like, oh man, I wonder how to get out of this car. 11:08.724 --> 11:10.426 [SPEAKER_03]: I just take this brick and I break the window. 11:11.206 --> 11:22.396 [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, we're sinking deeper and deeper where the water that's trying to get in is now fueled by this insanely profitable business to get in the car. 11:24.078 --> 11:26.922 [SPEAKER_03]: billions of dollars, which you know, first hand here. 11:27.302 --> 11:29.264 [SPEAKER_00]: A research, how to get it in the car? 11:29.284 --> 11:31.587 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's the most, you don't stand a change. 11:31.607 --> 11:32.488 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the plan. 11:32.508 --> 11:32.708 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 11:33.229 --> 11:33.469 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 11:33.690 --> 11:34.551 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the most effective. 11:34.571 --> 11:35.812 [SPEAKER_00]: There's more and more water. 11:35.832 --> 11:35.932 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 11:36.697 --> 11:40.418 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like we can't get through the door, but the trunk is wide open, right? 11:40.578 --> 11:40.738 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 11:41.298 --> 11:46.139 [SPEAKER_03]: And so then recently, even in the last few years, we've given them a bomb. 11:47.360 --> 11:55.562 [SPEAKER_03]: So parents are busy in the front trying to plug little holes and they've got a button to press to make a deep fake image of their peer. 11:58.098 --> 12:10.330 [SPEAKER_03]: or they can type words into a generative AI box that pops out like video content exactly curated to them. 12:11.231 --> 12:18.377 [SPEAKER_03]: And so this is a call to parents, right, parents can be too busy

trying to protect their team, boy. 12:19.158 --> 12:33.367 [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, their team boy is lonely and anxious and purposeless, you know, been given a dream of college is like the next thing for everyone, when maybe they're not interested, maybe they want to go a different direction, something like that. 12:33.828 --> 12:38.971 [SPEAKER_03]: And they've got a bomb in the vaccine and we're as parents, we might even ask the question, like, there's water, 12:40.893 --> 13:04.955 [SPEAKER_03]: You can get water there, like you can find pork and, you know, the example I give with LLMs right now is like it did not take me very long to find an LLM that told me how to find pork and how to hide it from my parents and that was like I'm I'm ancient I'm typing it into a Google chat right and it doesn't even take that much work it's it's being flooded 13:05.716 --> 13:06.957 [SPEAKER_03]: in front of their eyes. 13:07.457 --> 13:11.539 [SPEAKER_03]: So to answer your question, what is going on with teenage boys? 13:12.119 --> 13:23.624 [SPEAKER_03]: Purposelessness, isolation, anxiety, and a billion and billion dollar industry that's trying to tap into addictive behaviors to numb that pain. 13:24.475 --> 13:38.167 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that was such a beautiful illustrative metaphor for what teens are really experiencing because there are so many parents that are saying, well, if my job is to keep my kids safe in the scar, I'm going to do it. 13:38.787 --> 13:47.475 [SPEAKER_00]: And they don't realize how determined their kids are to just get out of the car and how easy that can be when they do have that bomb right that we've given them 13:50.457 --> 13:52.238 [SPEAKER_00]: jumped in halfway through this conversation. 13:52.258 --> 13:53.738 [SPEAKER_00]: This is very confusing. 13:54.818 --> 14:02.540 [SPEAKER_00]: Knowing that we're talking about pornography and sexually a specific material, I think that's such a helpful, you know, visual of what's really happening. 14:02.701 --> 14:15.544 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we mentioned teen boys and you said, you know, teen boys or teen girls can be, of course, in the backseat and in 2009 when we were first founded, certainly young girls and women were watching pornography, but culturally the stigma was 14:18.565 --> 14:28.211 [SPEAKER_00]: With all of these advancements in technology, we've certainly seen that increase culturally and in more acceptance of women and girls consuming pornography as well. 14:28.952 --> 14:36.497 [SPEAKER_00]: And you are work, have you noticed changes in recent years in the number of girls, young girls that you see who are struggling with pornography? 14:38.970 --> 14:46.736 [SPEAKER_03]: girls in the past when this content was far less story-based and niche driven. 14:47.437 --> 14:50.059 [SPEAKER_03]: Girls could avoid that a little bit easier I think. 14:50.179 --> 14:57.784 [SPEAKER_03]: They would go toward other types of behaviors but now because things get very niche, get very 14:58.745 --> 15:20.174 [SPEAKER_03]: targeted, and if we broaden the definition of what porn is, can include, you know, a rotica or chat bots that actually have a conversation, some of the things that on average girls tend to be connected to more, and the other thing I would add to that is with deep fakes. 15:20.694 --> 15:25.897 [SPEAKER_03]: They are being brought into that in a way that maybe before if they shared a photo that 15:27.989 --> 15:41.599 [SPEAKER_03]: Unhelpful can now be, it doesn't even have, they can be fully closed and their teenage counterparts can share that and create something that would have been unheard of on thought of 10 years ago. 15:42.440 --> 15:53.128 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and I think it really just speaks to the magnitude of the time that we're in and how rapidly these changes in technology are influencing young people. 15:54.592 --> 16:02.958 [SPEAKER_00]: that goes to this idea we've heard in the past, especially that many people consider pornography to just be another form of entertainment. 16:03.638 --> 16:10.303 [SPEAKER_00]: But what do you think that they misunderstand about how today's online pornography is affecting adolescent development? 16:10.738 --> 16:33.948 [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm, you know, maybe a segue statistic from what girls are seeing to how it's affecting development is just this research that came out last year that said for the first time in American history, girls wanted to get high school senior girls wanted to get married less then senior high school boys. 16:35.814 --> 16:46.420 [SPEAKER_03]: That speaks to the cultural shifts, the effects, I think, of pornography usage, like girls are over it. 16:46.520 --> 16:50.723 [SPEAKER_03]: They've just given up maybe in some ways of being treated with respect. 16:50.883 --> 17:01.589 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, developmentally, man, I think of like, just even the fact that a lot of kids first porn exposure is around the lunch table. 17:05.487 --> 17:06.889 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like you could add on to that. 17:07.549 --> 17:12.734 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I mean, not something we hear so often is parent to say, okay, well, not my kid, I have all the filters. 17:12.814 --> 17:16.258 [SPEAKER_00]: I have, you know, all of our devices at home are safeguarded. 17:16.298 --> 17:23.405 [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about this often, but then the second they go to school and they have a friend who has a device to, you know, has an internet connection. 17:24.345 --> 17:38.373 [SPEAKER_00]: All bets are off, like they are shown and this is such a common way that we hear about first exposure is while someone just pulled this up in a group setting and we laughed about it and then I was curious and that's that's so common. 17:39.033 --> 17:43.816 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think that's why the connection piece is the solution, right? 17:43.836 --> 17:49.438 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you cannot stop if from happening, you can postpone it if you're lucky and

17:52.578 --> 18:16.665 [SPEAKER_03]: The reason that they're going to continue to be drawn to it in an unhealthy manner is because they lack true connection in their life and what better person than a parent that one of two most important people on the whole planet to offer true connection and nonjudgment and relationship that exceeds the length of time of any other relationship. 18:17.584 --> 18:17.804 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 18:18.264 --> 18:21.747 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a sense among parents today. 18:21.787 --> 18:35.296 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we were called fight the new drug because 17 years ago when we were founded, we had to convince people of this idea that, you know, a device or something that wasn't a substance you put into your body could have. 18:36.457 --> 18:58.435 [SPEAKER_00]: in addictive nature, which I think we're to the point now where that's not so debatable, you know, people understand behavioral addiction, gambling addictions, certainly so many people would say I'm addicted to my phone or to TikTok or, you know, social media, there's an understanding of this idea, but I think where there's maybe still a little bit of a gap in knowledge for so many parents. 18:59.055 --> 19:06.516 [SPEAKER_00]: who say, well, I grew up with born and I was turned out fine is like the porn of generations past. 19:06.696 --> 19:20.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Even for those who had the internet is nothing compared to the endless, endless, easily accessible content of, you know, some is exceedingly violent. 19:20.219 --> 19:21.979 [SPEAKER_00]: Some is aggressive. 19:22.220 --> 19:24.540 [SPEAKER_00]: Any search someone could ever want is available. 19:25.160 --> 19:30.883 [SPEAKER_00]: with the click of a few buttons and it's so different than what was previously consumable. 19:31.283 --> 19:44.728 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, to broaden that scope a bit just for the teens that you see in your practice as a therapist with these youth who are growing up with smartphones with unlimited internet access. 19:45.068 --> 19:51.051 [SPEAKER_00]: How is that change the kinds of struggles that you're seeing in your practice specifically beyond the things we've already discussed? 19:51.763 --> 20:03.486 [SPEAKER_03]: For teens in general, I think of if we boil what you just said down to, we have created a distraction system that is the best the world has ever seen. 20:04.506 --> 20:08.587 [SPEAKER_03]: That distraction system also affects the parents. 20:09.587 --> 20:13.628 [SPEAKER_03]: So if I'm a distracted parent and my child has anxiety, 20:14.987 --> 20:18.711 [SPEAKER_03]: They might not be getting a healing connection that they need in the home. 20:19.292 --> 20:21.114 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's where that statement comes from. 20:21.194 --> 20:22.636 [SPEAKER_03]: My parents just don't understand me. 20:22.696 --> 20:32.447 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they're amped up too, trying to avoid stuff, trying not to gamble, trying not to do these distracting

things, like, shop when they feel badly. 20:33.910 --> 20:43.927 [SPEAKER_03]: So if a team comes in and they're already struggling with something, and the solution is connection, particularly to like a parent or mentor attachment, and that person is super distracted. 20:44.468 --> 20:47.433 [SPEAKER_03]: We'll sure you're going to have a host of other things that are an issue. 20:48.028 --> 20:48.268 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 20:49.790 --> 20:55.594 [SPEAKER_00]: And we see young people are seeking out connection on these platforms like quote unquote social media. 20:55.714 --> 20:57.536 [SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be a place for connecting. 20:57.876 --> 21:12.408 [SPEAKER_00]: We're often individuals end up connecting with strangers or connecting in a way that fuels algorithms to feed them more content that kind of can continue to lead down these these same paths that are actually pulling them away from the connection. 21:12.949 --> 21:14.530 [SPEAKER_00]: As you've mentioned with parents or friends 21:16.792 --> 21:19.433 [SPEAKER_03]: I had one for Teen Boys, I'm trying to remember what it was. 21:21.655 --> 21:21.875 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 21:22.435 --> 21:33.621 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I mean, I think you guys have hosted podcasts on the very same topic of looks maxing and kind of bettering yourself in a way that's actually defeating yourself. 21:34.782 --> 21:43.006 [SPEAKER_03]: So, okay, maybe I'm not going to drift toward online pornography, but I myself am going to try to look be perfect. 21:43.806 --> 21:45.227 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the same shame game. 21:47.093 --> 21:55.493 [SPEAKER_00]: and share a little bit about the role that shame plays in overcoming an unwanted behavior whether it's a sexual behavior or otherwise. 21:56.335 --> 21:56.675 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's it. 21:58.015 --> 22:04.980 [SPEAKER_03]: Shame is the root and the byproduct of unwanted sexual behavior, particularly as an adolescent. 22:05.780 --> 22:08.782 [SPEAKER_03]: We feel shame, we feel like we're not good enough. 22:09.443 --> 22:17.528 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we go toward porn that makes us feel better for a second and then feel very guilt and guilty and shameful. 22:18.349 --> 22:26.615 [SPEAKER_03]: which causes us to look to more porn and it's a spiral, even in my own recovery, the amount of times that I have to force myself. 22:27.416 --> 22:29.978 [SPEAKER_03]: This cannot be solved by myself. 22:30.378 --> 22:33.501 [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually it requires people to come alongside me. 22:33.541 --> 22:38.524 [SPEAKER_03]: It requires me to fight the shame and open up to other people. 22:39.645 --> 22:47.231 [SPEAKER_03]: I think about, you know, the story that wasn't necessarily sexual from my past, but had such an impact on me. 22:47.331 --> 22:53.455 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember being at this party at 12 years old, so of course it was a super lane party in the neighborhood. 22:53.515 --> 22:54.175 [SPEAKER_03]: Got invited. 22:54.336 --> 22:57.298 [SPEAKER_03]:

I think I was in seventh grade and I got invited by an eighth grader. 22:57.318 --> 22:58.619 [SPEAKER_03]: It was an eighth grade birthday party. 22:58.759 --> 23:00.220 [SPEAKER_03]: I was living large. 23:01.647 --> 23:02.808 [SPEAKER_03]: I asked a girl to dance. 23:03.549 --> 23:07.393 [SPEAKER_03]: At this point, part of my story is that I'm not a large human being. 23:07.553 --> 23:10.256 [SPEAKER_03]: And so at the time, I'm probably like four foot tall. 23:10.356 --> 23:13.519 [SPEAKER_03]: I probably weigh, I definitely don't even weigh 100 pounds. 23:14.259 --> 23:16.181 [SPEAKER_03]: And I go up to this girl and ask her to dance. 23:16.301 --> 23:20.666 [SPEAKER_03]: And she straight up says, I don't dance with guys who are shorter than me. 23:22.069 --> 23:24.570 [SPEAKER_03]: And you think that that was such a small thing. 23:25.230 --> 23:26.350 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the one I remember. 23:26.471 --> 23:32.573 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure there were countless other ones for a 12 year old to hear, you're not tall enough. 23:32.873 --> 23:33.933 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not manly enough. 23:34.433 --> 23:35.113 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not good enough. 23:35.193 --> 23:40.055 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a very traumatic in terms of trauma, but it adds up. 23:40.875 --> 23:47.778 [SPEAKER_03]: And so if I'm a teen boy and I'm experiencing a social media feed of shame, guilt, 23:48.778 --> 24:01.703 [SPEAKER_03]: and that same feed can provide me the medicine to put off that pain for a little while in the form of sexually explicit content that's curated for me. 24:01.723 --> 24:03.464 [SPEAKER_03]: I have no other choice. 24:04.227 --> 24:04.427 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 24:05.588 --> 24:15.213 [SPEAKER_00]: In the time that you've been there doing the work that you have with young people specifically engaging in pornography, what are you seeing? 24:15.313 --> 24:20.335 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we hear lots of statistics about the first age of exposure to pornography for young people. 24:20.735 --> 24:22.896 [SPEAKER_00]: What are you really seeing in your work? 24:23.096 --> 24:26.338 [SPEAKER_00]: And why does that timing matter developmentally? 24:27.619 --> 24:27.839 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 24:29.785 --> 24:40.931 [SPEAKER_03]: there are experts who can speak to what's actually happening in the brain as to why age of first porn exposure is so crucial. 24:42.151 --> 24:43.292 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not the whole story. 24:43.612 --> 24:46.714 [SPEAKER_03]: It's also moving from protecting to equipping, right? 24:47.294 --> 24:50.295 [SPEAKER_03]: And so a lot of parents are like, when do I start bringing this up? 24:50.496 --> 24:54.778 [SPEAKER_03]: It's probably too late in terms of like beating the age of first porn exposure. 24:54.918 --> 24:55.518 [SPEAKER_03]: I believe the 25:00.460 --> 25:05.735 [SPEAKER_00]: That's always what we see in statistics as well, but every story we hear is I was seven. 25:05.875 --> 25:06.457 [SPEAKER_00]: I was eight. 25:06.597 --> 25:07.199 [SPEAKER_00]: I was nine. 25:07.943 --> 25:35.675 [SPEAKER_03]: Age of first porn exposure is so important because if your brain is developing and kind of deciding like where should we go with our neurons like what excites us should we learn about physics should we learn about this thing in school should we attach to this person and right in the midst of that is when we're given this product that is not meant for someone who is that young 25:36.675 --> 25:39.217 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not meant for that sage brain. 25:40.258 --> 25:43.100 [SPEAKER_03]: And their brain says, I really like that. 25:43.400 --> 25:44.220 [SPEAKER_03]: Why wouldn't I? 25:45.121 --> 25:46.702 [SPEAKER_03]: And along with that comes a whole lot of shame. 25:47.222 --> 25:53.267 [SPEAKER_03]: The thing I would add to, I use this language, we should be concerned about age of first-poment porn exposure. 25:53.447 --> 25:58.510 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a brilliant TED talk to ask, like, parents always ask, when should I give my child a phone? 25:59.271 --> 26:01.813 [SPEAKER_03]: And his answer was, when do you want them to look at porn? 26:03.110 --> 26:04.091 [SPEAKER_03]: It's as easy as that. 26:04.211 --> 26:05.492 [SPEAKER_03]: It really is as easy as that. 26:05.612 --> 26:10.316 [SPEAKER_03]: Wendy, you want your kid to look at porn because the moment you give it to them, they're on the path. 26:10.856 --> 26:12.958 [SPEAKER_03]: And you can't hide the porn. 26:12.998 --> 26:14.459 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't block all the porn. 26:14.539 --> 26:15.640 [SPEAKER_03]: The water's gonna get in. 26:15.780 --> 26:25.628 [SPEAKER_03]: And the best example I have is the number of people who I have seen heard that hide a phone that their parents do not know about. 26:26.569 --> 26:31.653 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they saw it at their on their friends phone at school but it's also like what happened to your old phone. 26:32.585 --> 26:34.486 [SPEAKER_03]: I bet you don't know where it is, but your team might. 26:35.707 --> 26:43.252 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I am concerned about age of first porn exposure, but I think what's more important is actually the age of last exposure. 26:44.353 --> 26:59.343 [SPEAKER_03]: If you've found connection and healing as a 10 year old because your parents found out you were going to porn when you were anxious, and they got you to a counselor and you received help, and then your age of last porn exposure was 11, okay, we can deal with that 27:02.788 --> 27:11.211 [SPEAKER_03]: The question is, how frequent, how recent, how intense was the last time of porn exposure? 27:11.612 --> 27:16.173 [SPEAKER_03]: And for a lot of boys and girls in America, that was yesterday. 27:16.734 --> 27:22.156 [SPEAKER_03]: Today, myself included that I struggle that that window is not long enough. 27:22.876 --> 27:23.136 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 27:23.797 --> 27:28.699 [SPEAKER_00]: And in your experience, what underlying needs or experiences are often driving

27:33.895 --> 27:38.659 [SPEAKER_03]: unwanted porn use begins a bit more of an accident. 27:39.480 --> 27:43.844 [SPEAKER_03]: Current and ongoing taps into the story that Jay Stringer talks about. 27:44.544 --> 27:46.206 [SPEAKER_03]: They are going to those 27:47.702 --> 27:56.406 [SPEAKER_03]: images, those storylines that content that creator, because it's tapping into something that's going on right now. 27:56.646 --> 27:59.428 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give you an example of a non-porn related thing. 27:59.848 --> 28:03.550 [SPEAKER_03]: I was working out at the gym and they were playing animal, I believe, 28:04.230 --> 28:06.311 [SPEAKER_03]: be by three days grace. 28:06.831 --> 28:10.233 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like one of my favorite songs in high school. 28:10.473 --> 28:12.134 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was listening to lyrics. 28:12.214 --> 28:15.215 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, I could have never told you these lyrics in high school. 28:15.295 --> 28:16.836 [SPEAKER_03]: I would have just said, this is a cool song. 28:17.316 --> 28:23.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Those lyrics tell exactly what I was dealing with in my unwanted porn use. 28:24.180 --> 28:31.003 [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that I don't feel like anybody was seen me and that I had all of this pent up anger and aggression that I was hiding. 28:32.431 --> 28:42.238 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would love actually as much as you're comfortable sharing to hear a little bit more about your own story, looking back at what you were experiencing and what was driving you. 28:42.718 --> 28:51.844 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, can you share what your childhood was like and how pornography you mentioned earlier but how it first entered your life and kind of what influence it had throughout your life? 28:52.417 --> 28:52.637 [SPEAKER_03]: sure. 28:52.838 --> 28:53.058 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 28:53.999 --> 28:56.721 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for asking and thank you in advance for listening. 28:57.002 --> 29:03.488 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that you're a very caring person and you've listened to a lot of stories and so I'm probably going to tell you a story you've heard of before. 29:04.969 --> 29:05.530 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know what? 29:05.610 --> 29:11.416 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so much power in that as well and I feel honored and grateful to be able to to hear you share your story. 29:11.956 --> 29:12.557 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Natalie. 29:13.057 --> 29:14.459 [SPEAKER_03]: So my parents 29:16.647 --> 29:22.191 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not an accident that at 11 with the tools that I had an AOL chat or whatever. 29:23.051 --> 29:27.154 [SPEAKER_03]: I was sent an image of a naked girl and I had no idea what to do with it. 29:27.674 --> 29:37.740 [SPEAKER_03]: Before that, maybe during around that time, I'd friends who had like cut out pictures from magazines and would go through friends, moms, cosmopolitan magazines. 29:39.482 --> 29:42.483 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man, and so dating me, but 29:43.619 --> 29:56.575 [SPEAKER_03]: as well

like I experienced this wave kind of like maybe the first wave of real true like technology fueled internet pornography. 29:57.116 --> 29:57.476 [SPEAKER_03]: And so 29:58.868 --> 30:12.916 [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, it started as like looking through a magazine, probably feeling so anxious in my body, feeling so unwanted, feeling so ashamed from girls telling me I'm not big enough, I'm not strong enough, I'm not smart enough, whatever it might be. 30:13.597 --> 30:23.662 [SPEAKER_03]: And so of course, where's a guy going to go in a home when his parents, or my mom is off working, my siblings aren't home yet, my space is there. 30:25.123 --> 30:29.707 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to look at things that make the pain go away a little bit more, and so that's what I was doing. 30:29.927 --> 30:37.093 [SPEAKER_03]: And the stories as old as time, that behavior became more intense, more frequent, more recent. 30:38.774 --> 30:45.719 [SPEAKER_03]: The times that I shared that to trusted individuals in kind of small group context. 30:46.059 --> 30:50.503 [SPEAKER_03]: It was probably met with like good intentions, but shameful statements. 30:54.477 --> 30:57.447 [SPEAKER_03]: One or two of those mentors are still in my life and I value their time. 30:57.748 --> 31:00.838 [SPEAKER_03]: And I can't imagine where I would be without them. 31:01.890 --> 31:06.874 [SPEAKER_03]: but the story that kept happening was, I didn't have anybody who could speak into that cycle. 31:07.755 --> 31:10.517 [SPEAKER_03]: I came across Bernay Brown in a shout out, 28. 31:10.537 --> 31:22.886 [SPEAKER_03]: I think 14, I had failed a really important test and I was floundering and a mentor of mine said, you know, I think you might be dealing with shame and I was like, what the hell is shame? 31:23.186 --> 31:27.370 [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, it's not blank enough, you're not blank enough. 31:27.790 --> 31:32.355 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have something to put in that and it's like I have a million words to put into that? 31:32.375 --> 31:48.651 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's when I started discovering that when I don't feel good enough, when I don't feel like I connect with someone, I can go to this thing that makes me feel good, porn masturbation, unwanted behavior, even the thinking about acting out. 31:50.050 --> 31:51.811 [SPEAKER_03]: is enough to get me going. 31:52.131 --> 31:54.913 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like enough to put off that pain that I'm experiencing. 31:55.454 --> 32:08.162 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I, you know, like every college student was distracted, the embarrassing and the tragic thing is that I actually lived three doors down from the counseling services at the college that I went to. 32:08.242 --> 32:16.027 [SPEAKER_03]: It was 30 feet from me and I didn't know that this was a place that I could go to to find connection healing and freedom. 32:16.687 --> 32:17.007 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, 32:18.068 --> 32:20.570 [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, it went on, it kept getting worse. 32:21.130 --> 32:33.398 [SPEAKER_03]: I started entering this era where my behavior, it was, I was doing things, I was thinking things that I said I would never do or think or say. 32:34.098 --> 32:42.264 [SPEAKER_03]: I provided myself on being extremely frugal, and I, at the time, the way that I was accessing the internet, required that I, you know, I had this router. 32:42.384 --> 32:45.266 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what I would do is I would cut the router. 32:46.389 --> 32:49.170 [SPEAKER_03]: like cord and say, I am done. 32:49.770 --> 32:51.131 [SPEAKER_03]: I will never look at porn again. 32:51.291 --> 32:52.311 [SPEAKER_03]: I cannot keep doing this. 32:53.291 --> 33:01.654 [SPEAKER_03]: And then on the way back home from the grocery store, because they sell ethernet cords at croaker, I would buy another freaking cord. 33:02.194 --> 33:07.176 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm sitting here budgeting my money eating peanut butter and jelly to get by as an intern. 33:08.717 --> 33:10.077 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm still spending money. 33:10.477 --> 33:12.398 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what drug addicts do. 33:13.582 --> 33:24.867 [SPEAKER_03]: They pay money for drugs and see here's the tricky thing about porn and my story is that addiction is fueled by the three A's. 33:25.067 --> 33:39.794 [SPEAKER_03]: It's anonymity, affordability, and accessibility and we have created the most affordable anonymous and accessible drug known to man in my opinion, maybe gambling's coming up next. 33:44.037 --> 34:10.768 [SPEAKER_03]: saying that i'm never going to think about underage girls i'm never going to spend money on porn i'm going to get this taken care of and i'm sitting in shame fear isolation and i didn't know what to do i asked for a raise and my job was willing to you know i said hey would you pay me more money and i would go to counseling with that money and they graciously did i happened to know a counselor asked who i should see they set me up with a guy and 34:12.269 --> 34:14.070 [SPEAKER_03]: Perfection has not happened. 34:14.610 --> 34:23.515 [SPEAKER_03]: There have been seasons and still will be of unwanted sexual behavior because that is like we talked about point age of first porn exposure. 34:23.575 --> 34:27.396 [SPEAKER_03]: My brain knows what it needs to feel less pain temporarily. 34:28.597 --> 34:37.144 [SPEAKER_03]: However, it was the moment going to counseling that I was able to finally take ownership of this. 34:37.204 --> 34:46.451 [SPEAKER_03]: If I'm talking to somebody who has never done this before, I would tell you, you totally are able to take control back from your unwanted sexual behavior. 34:46.551 --> 34:47.932 [SPEAKER_03]: That is within your power. 34:48.493 --> 34:52.716 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what I get discovered and it was, yeah, let me do today. 34:53.833 --> 34:54.073 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 34:54.734 --> 34:56.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for sharing that. 34:56.255 --> 35:19.717 [SPEAKER_00]: Were there times

that you had tried to stop, like, obviously cutting your your cord, your ethernet cord, your internet access, but were there other times that you remember in kind of that period between being, you know, young, a teenager going to college before you sought out counseling that you would try to stop and it was just something that was like, oh well, I guess I can't. 35:21.886 --> 35:33.591 [SPEAKER_03]: all the time, every day, I believe if, you know, if I, I don't think too many people sumbling on this video, don't have an understanding of where they're at. 35:33.631 --> 35:36.493 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you don't, go to essay.org. 35:37.713 --> 35:47.962 [SPEAKER_03]: And they have 20 questions to ask yourself, if you might be a sex a hauler or a porn addict or however they word it, I think I made it through the second question. 35:48.142 --> 35:52.706 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the first questions is have you tried to stop but you can't stop? 35:52.786 --> 36:00.073 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, I've tried thousands of times and haven't been able to stop fully. 36:02.263 --> 36:06.714 [SPEAKER_00]: How much of your time and energy and mental capacity was going toward this? 36:06.814 --> 36:11.846 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're saying this is something you tried every day to stop, how much of your life was this really consuming? 36:13.675 --> 36:33.671 [SPEAKER_03]: I think of physical therapy, you know, you kind of like when you have a chronic pain like back pain, I've had back pain before from life circumstances and it's very easy to kind of compartmentalize that pain and forget what it was like to live pain for you. 36:33.691 --> 36:35.753 [SPEAKER_03]: That's why they actually call it recovery. 36:36.173 --> 36:38.956 [SPEAKER_03]: We are recovering something that was lost. 36:39.836 --> 36:40.217 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, 36:41.941 --> 36:56.590 [SPEAKER_03]: How much of my energy was spent creatively getting around the blocks in my life, finding out where the next fix was going to come from online, using an app in a different way to access the internet. 36:57.230 --> 37:02.273 [SPEAKER_03]: What I would have said at that time was probably that it was like 3% of a big deal. 37:02.293 --> 37:03.954 [SPEAKER_03]: It was very hidden. 37:05.511 --> 37:07.952 [SPEAKER_03]: Now I know that it was pervasive. 37:08.533 --> 37:15.896 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, you know, it's like having a million tabs open on my browser where I can't, I just can't load the next thing. 37:16.217 --> 37:19.799 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm too stuck in what that girl said about me last week. 37:20.339 --> 37:21.239 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually attribute, 37:23.875 --> 37:36.015 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's probably many reasons, but one of the reasons that I tried to date in high school and college, and it just never, and even post college before counseling, and it did not work out, and I kept saying like, 37:37.055 --> 37:39.236 [SPEAKER_03]: Man, I'm just like getting unlucky, or I'm getting... 37:39.956 --> 37:46.659 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm asking the wrong girls, which I like to ask some amazing girls out, but what I actually think was happening was they could see it. 37:47.619 --> 37:49.320 [SPEAKER_03]: Something is up with this guy. 37:49.820 --> 37:53.382 [SPEAKER_03]: He is looking for something that I can't put my finger on. 37:54.122 --> 37:55.363 [SPEAKER_03]: that's problematic. 37:56.124 --> 37:58.445 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's why relationships didn't work. 37:58.846 --> 38:03.389 [SPEAKER_03]: And ironically, the solution to this whole thing that we've been talking about is connection. 38:03.649 --> 38:09.113 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's where that's how I found it in counseling was the connection with another human being to listen. 38:09.754 --> 38:11.715 [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, at the moment he said, yeah, me too. 38:13.117 --> 38:13.357 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. 38:14.758 --> 38:16.339 [SPEAKER_00]: What was the way of hearing that? 38:16.459 --> 38:19.281 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, after years of this, it kind of 38:23.148 --> 38:26.671 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that didn't come for a couple of sessions. 38:26.871 --> 38:32.896 [SPEAKER_03]: I think the first thing I remember was, it seems like you might not have healthy relationship with women. 38:33.076 --> 38:34.057 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, excuse me. 38:36.219 --> 38:37.240 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it that obvious? 38:37.900 --> 38:45.086 [SPEAKER_03]: And the yes several times need to, a weight off my shoulders, it's why I tend 12 step meetings. 38:46.047 --> 38:48.970 [SPEAKER_03]: To be in a room with somebody that I don't have to explain, 38:50.852 --> 39:01.774 [SPEAKER_03]: that isn't going to be caught off guard by hearing the word pornography, that is that's a weight that you know we carry together rather than by yourself. 39:02.675 --> 39:02.915 [SPEAKER_00]: right. 39:03.956 --> 39:09.438 [SPEAKER_00]: And as, you know, you certainly learned through recovery, you weren't alone in this, right? 39:09.539 --> 39:14.661 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so often we hear from individuals who feel like they're the only one going through this. 39:14.781 --> 39:25.787 [SPEAKER_00]: And even though they know other people consume pornography, I think there's often this thought that like, well, I must be the only one that is struggling with this, where this is kind of all consuming to me, what would you say to someone in that position? 39:26.523 --> 39:41.196 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to say something super cheesy, but it is the truth and it's like if somebody is caught in unwanted sexual behavior and that could be from looking up images of like lingerie and saying like I really hope it doesn't. 39:41.256 --> 39:41.796 [SPEAKER_03]: It works in this. 39:41.816 --> 39:44.119 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's that bad to paying for sex. 39:44.679 --> 39:46.280 [SPEAKER_03]: You are not alone. 39:46.401 --> 39:51.165 [SPEAKER_03]: I have met hundreds of people who are fighting the good fight against this. 39:52.477

--> 40:04.260 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that's an important reminder too in knowing that there are also hundreds, thousands, really tens of thousands of people who have found kind of hope and healing through the process of recovery as well. 40:04.320 --> 40:09.341 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not just something that anyone who's struggling with this is just stuck in this forever. 40:09.381 --> 40:11.262 [SPEAKER_00]: There's lots and lots of hope on the other side. 40:13.092 --> 40:24.717 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask you a little bit about how pornography affected or if pornography affected the way that you viewed yourself and how that influenced the relationships that you had. 40:26.437 --> 40:34.301 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that shame cycle that I'm not good enough every time I cut the cord bought a new one. 40:35.161 --> 40:41.363 [SPEAKER_03]: Had an unwanted sexual thought was like more evidence that you're just not good enough. 40:43.898 --> 40:47.420 [SPEAKER_03]: So I had a really bad view of myself, terrible. 40:48.321 --> 40:55.926 [SPEAKER_03]: I still wrestle with these same ghosts and even like silly examples, like marketing my practice. 40:56.686 --> 41:05.732 [SPEAKER_03]: Here I am trying to tell people how to live their lives if you knew what was going on in my head or last week, there's no way you would listen to what I have to say. 41:05.992 --> 41:09.294 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no way you would see who I am and not be repulsed. 41:10.335 --> 41:11.396 [SPEAKER_03]: And that just isn't true. 41:13.480 --> 41:24.263 [SPEAKER_03]: horn is telling you that it's going to give you rest and it's going to give you connection and it's tripping it away from you. 41:24.283 --> 41:25.164 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 41:25.544 --> 41:29.225 [SPEAKER_03]: And of course that's going to have something to do with your identity as a human being. 41:30.247 --> 41:52.342 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so often when we hear stories like this from individuals who've experienced a personal struggle with pornography and we hear about the ways they were impacted personally or their relationships or the way that they saw, people they saw, relationships with, they're really as this piece at the root that that comes back to shame and so I think it's it's 41:52.962 --> 42:12.854 [SPEAKER_00]: helpful the way that you've illustrated, the role that shame played both in your Shug with pornography, but even still today, as you mentioned, like you're a licensed professional who's well-versed in healthy habits and ways to overcome shame, and it's still something that can creep up in that you can experience, and 42:14.162 --> 42:17.064 [SPEAKER_00]: that it's an ongoing process right over covering. 42:17.164 --> 42:24.888 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's an important reminder because for so many listening, I think there's often this idea that's like, okay, well, I tried to quit. 42:25.648 --> 42:28.269 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't quit, so I just must not be capable of that. 42:28.630 --> 42:36.914 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's pretty rare, I think for individuals to be able to just overnight, you know, kick something that's been part of their life for so long. 42:37.054 --> 42:39.655 [SPEAKER_00]: And so do you have anything that kind of share with regard to that? 42:42.742 --> 42:45.723 [SPEAKER_03]: Two things come to mind when I think about quitting porn. 42:46.663 --> 42:49.884 [SPEAKER_03]: The first one is how many times it takes. 42:50.724 --> 43:04.707 [SPEAKER_03]: If it takes seven times on average to quit nicotine, and we're talking about a drug as accessible as pornography and as impactful on the brain as heroin, it's probably gonna take more than seven times. 43:05.654 --> 43:07.874 [SPEAKER_03]: is might be even a lifelong thing. 43:08.475 --> 43:28.658 [SPEAKER_03]: The second thing I think about when I think of what it takes to quit porn or be feet free from it, to put the shame behind us and pursue connection, I think about the rat city experiment, where rats that were lonely and isolated and bored drank the water 43:33.539 --> 43:41.181 [SPEAKER_03]: pierce to play with, toys to use, and ultimately like things to mess up on and try again. 43:42.342 --> 43:57.326 [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the rats that stopped drinking the heroin-filled water in the same way the solution to your pornography addiction is to connect with other people in the good and the bad and pursue something that gives you purpose. 43:58.238 --> 43:59.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 43:59.339 --> 44:00.419 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really what I said. 44:00.479 --> 44:06.483 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think something we get asked so often is like, what does the process of recovery look like? 44:07.283 --> 44:13.187 [SPEAKER_00]: And can you share a little bit about your process of recovery and also that of those that you work with? 44:14.327 --> 44:14.648 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 44:14.768 --> 44:15.028 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 44:15.088 --> 44:22.112 [SPEAKER_03]: For me, I can even sense as I'm about to say this, that there's some shame in this moment. 44:23.073 --> 44:23.313 [SPEAKER_03]: I went 44:27.818 --> 44:29.659 [SPEAKER_03]: at all in any way. 44:31.100 --> 44:44.486 [SPEAKER_03]: And life circumstances and stress and I got fired and COVID and all of these things that can aren't expected a loss of a child, a loss of a marriage, any of these things. 44:44.966 --> 44:46.687 [SPEAKER_03]: They can pull you back into it. 44:46.707 --> 44:48.207 [SPEAKER_03]: So what does recovery look like? 44:48.568 --> 44:51.729 [SPEAKER_03]: It's cheesy AF one day at 44:55.110 --> 44:56.610 [SPEAKER_03]: It lowers the stakes, right? 44:56.931 --> 45:09.894 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have to, that comment that it was made about this, like this is ruining your future marriage rather than like what courage it must have taken for you to share that deep and a really challenging experience with me. 45:10.374 --> 45:14.135 [SPEAKER_03]: That talks about some future thing that it's just not

present day. 45:14.175 --> 45:15.715 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't speak to my present day value. 45:15.755 --> 45:21.357 [SPEAKER_03]: And so recovery and the circles that you can find yourself in, tell you stop thinking about tomorrow. 45:21.897 --> 45:22.597 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not here. 45:23.357 --> 45:28.418 [SPEAKER_03]: Stop thinking about the past because it's over, think about what is happening today, and it's cheesy, and it works. 45:29.219 --> 45:29.499 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 45:30.399 --> 45:39.541 [SPEAKER_00]: And in your experience, as a counselor, how has your own process of recovery shaped the kind of counselor that you've become today? 45:39.561 --> 45:42.002 [SPEAKER_03]: I... 45:44.016 --> 46:00.514 [SPEAKER_03]: in my training in grad school, in my internship, and practically, I got the privilege to sit with a lot of clinicians, many good clinicians, and it's very interesting what I hear in your question is that, like, not everybody, 46:01.947 --> 46:04.369 [SPEAKER_03]: executes therapy in the same way, right? 46:04.389 --> 46:24.268 [SPEAKER_03]: So if this is any call for anybody looking for a therapist is like they're different and I always recommend looking at two or three options and seeing which one you feel like you connect with most because I've seen people who are like let's get this done let we got business to go to like and maybe they're what I would consider maybe a little bit 46:27.450 --> 46:45.133 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I've been with people who are really, really willing to sit with you and and be with you and they're not we're not here to get stuff done we're here to actually live together and see where it takes us and so I find myself somewhere in the middle of that like I'm very achievement oriented and. 46:46.033 --> 47:10.281 [SPEAKER_03]: I like I let's do some business like we're not here to just play and yet I have a registered play therapist designation where like we're going to do sand tray and we're going to play a game and we're going to play nerf basketball and that's actually healing like that's connection and so that would be an answer to your question very very good to have not thought about that so closely connected to 47:11.573 --> 47:19.852 [SPEAKER_03]: my experience with porn irvient and probably just comes out with like I'm just not expecting the teen to see me 10 times and never struggle again. 47:19.972 --> 47:20.794 [SPEAKER_03]: So if you're a parent, 47:22.317 --> 47:29.883 [SPEAKER_03]: A tool that I use for parents is to say, like, you're in it for the long haul, your relationship is going to outlast so many relationships. 47:30.564 --> 47:33.166 [SPEAKER_03]: And they're probably not going to tell you the details of this. 47:33.286 --> 47:37.850 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to get some other third party, whether that's a therapist or a coach or a mentor. 47:38.871 --> 47:40.912 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's good, that's okay. 47:41.633 --> 47:43.574 [SPEAKER_03]: But one of the powers that you do have, 47:44.541 --> 47:46.342 [SPEAKER_03]: is to use this line with your team. 47:46.962 --> 47:52.826 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, you've seen probably more things about porn and no more about the water outside this car that's trying to get in. 47:53.026 --> 47:55.687 [SPEAKER_03]: You know more about that than I will ever know. 47:57.748 --> 48:01.871 [SPEAKER_03]: And yet, I'm here and I'm willing to open door. 48:02.571 --> 48:07.254 [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a problem and you need help with it, I won't even ask a question. 48:07.394 --> 48:08.875 [SPEAKER_03]: If you say I need to see a counselor, 48:09.850 --> 48:10.451 [SPEAKER_03]: totally fine. 48:10.491 --> 48:10.951 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it. 48:11.632 --> 48:12.213 [SPEAKER_03]: No questions. 48:12.893 --> 48:20.001 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a tool I would say parents give that opportunity to your child that you will pay for their counseling if you have the resources. 48:21.683 --> 48:26.148 [SPEAKER_03]: Anytime in the future, open invitation with no question, questions asked. 48:26.736 --> 48:36.679 [SPEAKER_00]: We often hear from individuals or parents looking for counselors with their Pist for their teens, just how intimidating it can be to find a therapist that you connect with. 48:36.739 --> 48:42.381 [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the tools that can be helpful with processing trauma is EMDR. 48:42.801 --> 48:48.163 [SPEAKER_00]: And you are an EMDR trained therapist for our listeners who aren't familiar with it. 48:48.223 --> 48:49.183 [SPEAKER_00]: What is EMDR? 48:49.224 --> 48:52.385 [SPEAKER_00]: Why can it be such a helpful tool for people working through 48:57.026 --> 48:57.287 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. 48:58.248 --> 49:10.166 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, EMDR is among clinicians like it's it's kind of like magic in the ways that we don't quite understand all the things that are happening with this reward system neurologically 49:11.748 --> 49:21.317 [SPEAKER_03]: EMDR works because it works neurologically, so it was originated with a woman who had the story goes Ellen Shapiro, I think, is the name. 49:21.837 --> 49:28.804 [SPEAKER_03]: She was having a hard time and she noticed that she was watching these sequels go by, left and right, and left and right, and she actually felt better. 49:28.844 --> 49:31.807 [SPEAKER_03]: She felt like she had processed this hard thing that happened. 49:32.327 --> 49:39.551 [SPEAKER_03]: and then she's a therapist and she works on it and finds out that this bilateral stimulation, two sides of our body. 49:40.011 --> 49:49.635 [SPEAKER_03]: While doing that, we process an emory with a clinician, you actually feel better about these moments that have happened. 49:49.756 --> 50:00.361 [SPEAKER_03]: So EMDR treats trauma by reprocessing these moments, connecting a negative thought that you hold about yourself like, I am bad, I am not good, 50:01.221 --> 50:11.188 [SPEAKER_03]: And then reprocessing it while doing that bilateral simulation actually helps us process that

memory and lower the intensity of the future trigger. 50:11.308 --> 50:15.971 [SPEAKER_03]: And so how does that relate to unwanted sexual behavior with the MDR? 50:16.011 --> 50:21.375 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, I mean, even in my story, it's like I had these memories that I hold on to then I kind of 50:21.835 --> 50:23.957 [SPEAKER_03]: Connected this negative belief about myself. 50:23.997 --> 50:24.898 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not good enough. 50:24.938 --> 50:26.019 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not tall enough. 50:26.099 --> 50:39.010 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not acceptable enough because of the behavior that I've done from the trauma that I've experienced and EMDR really gets to hone in and target that specifically and I'm a big fan of 50:40.071 --> 50:42.033 [SPEAKER_03]: Therapy that isn't just verbal, right? 50:42.393 --> 50:48.137 [SPEAKER_03]: EMDR can really get through to places that traditional therapy can't. 50:48.217 --> 51:02.467 [SPEAKER_03]: The obvious example is that some of the things that we are using as fuel for those unwanted addictive behaviors, time on our phone, whatever it might be, actually exist pre-memory. 51:02.907 --> 51:07.851 [SPEAKER_03]: So we actually experience like a lack of attachment, a trauma that happened before five years old, 51:08.671 --> 51:15.194 [SPEAKER_03]: We can't go back and share with you what happened because it wasn't part of our experience verbally. 51:15.714 --> 51:23.377 [SPEAKER_03]: And so EMDR actually is able to in a way that traces the pathways of where that behavior came from. 51:23.817 --> 51:29.239 [SPEAKER_03]: Access and heal those memories that are stuck that you actually have no memory of. 51:29.379 --> 51:30.779 [SPEAKER_03]: It's phenomenal. 51:30.879 --> 51:32.420 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd give it a try if you can. 51:33.295 --> 51:37.177 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was a beautiful description, I think, of the true magic of MDR. 51:37.598 --> 51:50.425 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to ask you as well, if we have young people listening who maybe feel trapped in with unwanted sexual behavior or feel like they're beyond help, what would you want them to hear from you today? 51:50.906 --> 51:51.886 [SPEAKER_03]: You are not alone. 51:52.266 --> 51:53.287 [SPEAKER_03]: I have been there. 51:54.968 --> 51:57.970 [SPEAKER_03]: Even recently, even though that takes a different form, 51:59.114 --> 52:00.255 [SPEAKER_03]: You are valuable. 52:01.195 --> 52:03.637 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sitting across from you. 52:04.637 --> 52:08.799 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not here in my voice thinking, you're valuable, but there's a couple of asterisess. 52:08.819 --> 52:10.480 [SPEAKER_03]: You're valuable if you're trying hard. 52:10.500 --> 52:12.361 [SPEAKER_03]: You're valuable if you're not looking. 52:12.742 --> 52:17.424 [SPEAKER_03]: You're valuable if you have a relationship that meets society's standards. 52:18.465 --> 52:20.526 [SPEAKER_03]: You are valuable, period. 52:22.135 --> 52:34.733 [SPEAKER_03]: Another thing I would say to teens is, man, I'm just so inspired by the willingness that you have to be open about things that in a generation or two ago, it would never be talked about. 52:35.334 --> 52:35.595 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 52:36.752 --> 52:43.337 [SPEAKER_00]: it's so important to remind anyone who is struggling with this that there are so many resources available that can help as well. 52:43.978 --> 52:45.999 [SPEAKER_00]: We will certainly link some in the show notes. 52:46.019 --> 52:54.226 [SPEAKER_00]: You've mentioned several today counseling therapy, having conversations, and connection really being that source. 52:54.306 --> 52:59.870 [SPEAKER_00]: But I want to ask you, is there anything you wanted to share that we haven't had the opportunity to speak about today? 53:01.231 --> 53:09.116 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think if you are a parent and you're thinking like simply, what do I need to do about my child's behavior? 53:09.616 --> 53:12.318 [SPEAKER_03]: This could be anything or porn. 53:12.918 --> 53:22.224 [SPEAKER_03]: And it would be to educate, write, let's hope that porn isn't the only thing that's educating them on what good sex is. 53:22.925 --> 53:26.967 [SPEAKER_03]: And then to equip them, what do you need to be successful for your life? 53:27.088 --> 53:28.729 [SPEAKER_03]: Not what do you need to get into college? 53:29.449 --> 53:39.583 [SPEAKER_03]: And then lastly, to connect with them, I love the best line I've ever heard, I use it forever, tell me more, and then pause. 53:40.604 --> 53:46.232 [SPEAKER_03]: Those three things, to educate, to equip, and to connect, are going to change your relationship with your child. 53:48.120 --> 53:56.505 [SPEAKER_00]: that's beautifully said, it is especially just to remind parents, you know, questions about sex from young people are natural and normal and healthy. 53:57.406 --> 54:05.871 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's so much easier for them to get safe answers from you about healthy intimacy rather than what they will learn from pornography. 54:05.951 --> 54:08.412 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, I love that reminder. 54:08.732 --> 54:11.494 [SPEAKER_00]: And with the education piece, we always say, 54:13.415 --> 54:21.603 [SPEAKER_00]: if you don't know as a parent, it's okay to say that and say I don't actually have the answer to this question, but I'm happy to look into it a little bit and then we'll let's try again later. 54:22.263 --> 54:31.012 [SPEAKER_00]: I think parents get intimidated there sometimes, but that can be the best way to help equip your young people and I love telling me more and then listen. 54:31.612 --> 54:31.833 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 54:32.558 --> 54:35.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Jared, I want to thank you so much for having this conversation with me today. 54:36.001 --> 54:38.623 [SPEAKER_00]: It's for me personally, it's really an honor. 54:39.124 --> 54:59.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Anytime I get to sit in front of someone and hear some of the most vulnerable pieces of their story and I appreciate you

sharing that with us and with our listeners and I'm also so grateful for the work that you're doing with young people to help address these issues and help mitigate unwanted sexual behavior and pornography. 54:59.622 --> 55:04.108 [SPEAKER_00]: for young people and create safe spaces for young people to heal moving forward. 55:04.128 --> 55:05.150 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much. 55:05.450 --> 55:10.237 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there anywhere if we have listeners in your area that you anything you want to share? 55:11.779 --> 55:20.546 [SPEAKER_03]: sure thank you unendingly for the honor to be here and the work that you do that's just supporting people who are trying to get free. 55:21.567 --> 55:23.949 [SPEAKER_03]: It's the thing I forget to talk about all the time. 55:24.069 --> 55:31.395 [SPEAKER_03]: We dwell on this on the problem and we don't talk about and maybe we talk about the solution and we don't talk about the dream and that the 55:32.035 --> 55:42.288 [SPEAKER_03]: the dream that is a reality to live free from the chains that are holding you down, particularly with pornography and unwanted sexual behavior and so. 55:42.649 --> 55:43.930 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 55:43.950 --> 55:46.433 [SPEAKER_03]: I, yes, listeners can find me. 55:46.594 --> 55:48.957 [SPEAKER_03]: My website is Jared Hoffman.com. 55:49.457 --> 56:00.042 [SPEAKER_03]: I am on LinkedIn, and of all the podcasts to talk about this on, I'm on LinkedIn because it's the only thing that doesn't, like the only social network that doesn't throw porn at me. 56:01.002 --> 56:06.785 [SPEAKER_03]: I catch little pieces of it, it's like I know that was sent to me because they know my demographics. 56:08.125 --> 56:10.306 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. 56:10.887 --> 56:18.292 [SPEAKER_03]: I have a quiz on my website that does my team need therapy because porn is part of the problem, right? 56:18.352 --> 56:22.875 [SPEAKER_03]: There's plenty of other ways and reasons that a team might need therapy. 56:22.915 --> 56:26.377 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's a 15 question quiz that goes over a lot of domains. 56:26.797 --> 56:35.423 [SPEAKER_03]: It takes three minutes and so if any parents anywhere are just wanting a little bit more information on what they're seeing with their team and does this need professional help, please go there. 56:35.943 --> 56:43.567 [SPEAKER_03]: If you're in the state of Tennessee, I offer counseling services in person in Memphis and virtually in Tennessee. 56:43.607 --> 56:46.148 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to help guide you through that journey. 56:47.048 --> 56:47.449 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 56:47.729 --> 56:50.270 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you again for your work and for your time today, Jared. 56:58.960 --> 57:01.642 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 57:02.243 --> 57:05.165 [SPEAKER_01]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 57:05.706 --> 57:22.640 [SPEAKER_01]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 57:23.180 --> 57:26.083 [SPEAKER_01]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 57:26.583 --> 57:30.109 [SPEAKER_01]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 57:30.550 --> 57:31.651 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening. 57:32.192 --> 57:39.404 [SPEAKER_01]: We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.