Confirming Todd Blanche as Attorney General의 전체 녹취록

effectively, 66 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.840 especially given the judicial resistance they've faced. The border simply 67 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:18.240 isn't a problem anymore, and the DOJ side of the 68 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.920 enforcement picture is a big part of that. Just today 69 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.199 they got two big immigration wins at the Supreme Court. 70 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.279 The Department's doing great work while being understaffed to help 71 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:31.319 achieve energy dominance. Under Blanche's leadership, they've been very active 72 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.160 against climate lawfare. They've found great briefs in the Plaque 73 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.279 Mines Parish case, in the Sun Court case at the 74 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:40.160 Supreme Court, they preemptively sued states like Hawaii and Michigan 75 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.839 for their lawfare schemes, and they're getting involved elsewhere throughout 76 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:49.120 the country. Judicial resistance that they faced has been off 77 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.759 the charge. As I mentioned, Nevertheless, DOJ has, as I 78 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:57.959 understand it, fifty six percent win rate for getting stays 79 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.600 in the courts of appeals. If you include the court 80 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.160 after they've lost at the Court of Appeals, it's up 81 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.639 to sixty three percent. When you consider that these lawsuits 82 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.360 are all brought in pretty far left districts, that really 83 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:17.680 gets you somewhere. So they're fighting reverse discrimination DEI very effectively. 84 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:20.720 They're doing great work on judicial nominations and other words. 85 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.199 The vast majority of what the Department is doing, they 86 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:26.480 are doing well. And this is the sort of thing 87 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:32.000 that Republican senators want. So if you're a Republican senator, 88 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:37.600 the question you need to ask is Blanche compared to 89 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:39.839 what that's When I was working for Leader McConnel, Jorge 90 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.040 Muchazy told me once that's the most important question you 91 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:42.680 always have to ask. 92 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:43.399 I think he's right. 93 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.199 You're not going to get a Bill Barr or a 94 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:50.079 Mike Muckazy waiting in the wings to save them from Blanche. 95 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:51.720 Even if they don't like some of the stuff that 96 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.040 the Department is doing, such as the Obama Biden's Style 97 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.879 Weaponization Fund, or some of the prosecutions that they've been 98 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:05.639 up to the fact of the matter is that the 99 00:06:05.680

--> 00:06:09.920 president will get somebody who's going to be doing that 100 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.680 one percent of things that they don't like one way 101 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.000 or the other. He now knows how to run the department, 102 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.720 how to get his person in the department. What do 103 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:21.600 you do about that other ninety nine percent that the 104 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.680 Republicans and the Senate support. I think that Blanche has 105 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:26.800 shown that he's very good at that other ninety nine 106 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.480 percent and would continue to be very good at doing 107 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:33.120 that other ninety nine percent. And so since Republican Senators 108 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.199 can't stop that one percent with this vote on Todd Blanche, 109 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.639 they should focus on that ninety nine percent and having 110 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:41.680 the Department of Justice in capable, steady hands. 111 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.519 And I think that's what Blanche would provide. 112 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.920 Andy, you're well, you know, there's a lot that Mike 113 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.639 said that I agree with in terms of what we 114 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.399 would expect out of a good justice department. And I 115 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.519 have to say I applaud the emphasis on violent crime. 116 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:07.680 When I was a prosecutor first in the early nineteen eighties, 117 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.839 one of the important things that Rudy Giuliani brought to 118 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:16.480 the Southern District of New York very much encouraged by 119 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:22.319 the Reggae administration was to prioritize what the federal government 120 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.920 could bring to bear on what was the most important 121 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:30.040 problem in New York and actually nationally what was at 122 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:33.040 the time the most important problem, which was violent crime. 123 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:38.160 I think Mike is completely right about the need to 124 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:44.040 prioritize immigration enforcement, and I applaud the Justice Department for 125 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:44.680 doing that. 126 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:45.800 I applaud a number of. 127 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.639 Things that they've done to the extent that it would 128 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:52.480 be what one would expect from a normal Republican led 129 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.600 Justice Department. Where I bought company is I think in 130 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:02.800 two places. One, I think my percentages of the good 131 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:06.000 versus the bad are a little bit skewed to say that, 132 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.959 you know, ninety nine percent of what the Justice Department 133 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:14.279 is doing is just peachy, and there's this teeny tiny 134 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.279 one percent that's just a little bit alarming. I don't 135 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:21.240 think is a fair representation of what's happened here. We've 136 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:25.319 had a Justice Department from day one of this administration, 137 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:30.439 and Blanche has been a leader in implementing this who 138 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:36.919 basically have had the mission of discrediting everything that was 139 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:43.840 done under the Biden administration and discrediting the prosecutions of Trump, 140 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.600 even to the extent that they involved serious misconduct, and 141 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.879 just dismissing them as if they were nothing. The Justice 142 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.000 Department has weaponized its processes against the president's enemies in 143 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:03.320 a very public, notorio an unabashed way. I think I 144 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:08.320 was probably as vehement a critic as there was of 145 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:13.200 the lawfair that was practiced under the Obama administration and 146 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:17.039 under the Biden administration, and I'm simply not going to 147 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:22.679 take a different position because we now have a republican administration. Moreover, 148 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.799 what I would say about that is, at least with 149 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.879 respect to Obama and Biden, when they practiced law fair, 150 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.759 they had the good taste to pretend that they weren't 151 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.200 doing it, and it was dishonest, and it was disingenuous, 152 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:40.759 and it was condemnable in many ways. But at least 153 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.879 they understood that it was wrong, and therefore they had 154 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:47.600 to veil it as if it wasn't actually happening. In 155 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.320 what we have in this administration is not only lawfair, 156 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.320 but the president wants you to know that it's law fair, 157 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.120 and that he's coming for his enemies between the eyes 158 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:01.759 and as a top official the Justice Department, you have 159 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.840 a choice. You can either be the one who tries 160 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:08.840 to stop that and honorably resign if you can't, or 161 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.360 you can aid in a bet it. Todd Blanche has 162 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.320 chosen to aid in a bet it. It does my 163 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:19.679 heart no good to say that I came into when 164 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:23.600 the administration came in. I actually was quite happy to 165 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:27.639 see that Blanche had been placed in an important spot. 166 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.840 I don't think

it's a big deal as long as 167 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.120 he follows the conflict of interests. 168 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:35.320 Protocols. 169 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:37.759 I don't think it's a big deal that Blanche was 170 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:43.720 the president's personal lawyer. And I thought that the asset 171 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:47.600 that he would bring to the equation was that Pam Bondy, 172 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:51.159 who I also had hoped for at the beginning, was 173 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:54.679 a novice when it came to the Justice Department, which 174 00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:01.120 is a very insular institution compared to other government institutions 175 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:06.679 and even other prosecutorial institution across institutions across the country. 176 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.480 And I thought that somebody who wasn't familiar with the 177 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:14.320 department and who didn't know where all the levers were 178 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.039 would be aided greatly by somebody like Todd who has 179 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:23.200 experienced with the Justice Department. It just hasn't worked out 180 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.080 the way that I hoped it would work out. I'd 181 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.960 say one final thing, since my time is winding down, 182 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.919 I do agree with Mike that the question does come 183 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:35.039 down to what does a senator think about all this? 184 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:38.840 How should a senator think about his role? I think 185 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:44.440 the Senate has an obligation to discipline the Justice Department, 186 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.879 to discipline the executive when it acts lawlessly. And we're 187 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.279 not going to impeach the president. But these kinds of 188 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.720 appointments are an opportunity to try to bend the administration 189 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:57.960 into lawful conduct. 190 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.600 Thank you, Andy, who wants to start with the questioning? 191 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:06.200 Because Andy, I've got a question for you on that 192 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.759 last point, if you don't mind, sure, I take your 193 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.799 point that you see this as a way to discipline 194 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.919 the White House. I guess, perhaps coming from my time 195 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:19.360 in the Senate, how does it discipline him if he's 196 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:21.840 going to get what he wants one way or the other. Right, So, 197 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.519 if Blenche doesn't get confirmed, he'll stay as Attorney General, 198 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.279 most likely potentially for the duration of the administration, unless 199 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:30.840 President Trump decides that he wants you know, ed Martin 200 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:37.639 thearetstad or something. What practical consequence in terms of discipline, 201 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:39.279 the disciplining the administration. 202 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.759 Does this have, Mike. 203 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.159 I think that we've seen a number of occasions over 204 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.960 the last eighteen months or close to two years, whatever 205 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:53.279 it's been, where when the administration gets blowback, it actually 206 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:59.919 does amend its behavior. And I agree with your overarching 207 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:07.240 point that feudal gestures are to be avoided because they're 208 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.559 just a waste of time and they don't advance the 209 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:10.399 ball up the field. 210 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:13.960 I wrote a book about impeachment back. 211 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:18.240 In twenty fourteen, and the argument that I made in 212 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.840 the book, which I think is equally relevant here, is 213 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.919 that whether you have impeachable offenses or not, or whether 214 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.519 you should proceed on impeachable offenses or not, comes down 215 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.720 to two things. One is the seriousness, the egregious nature 216 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:41.320 of the misconduct. And while you know, I appreciate the 217 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:45.039 old Gerald Ford observation that an impeachable offense is whatever 218 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.559 the House of Representatives decides in impeachable offenses, I think 219 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:52.559 that we can objectively say that there are certain abuses 220 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.759 of power which rise to the level of something that's impeachable. 221 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:01.039 But the other consideration that has to be taken into 222 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:06.360 account is the likelihood of removal of the president. And 223 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:10.080 to my mind, if you don't have a political case 224 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:15.960 where you get support for removing a president that would 225 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.240 cut across partisan lines and ideological lines, then it's a 226 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.320 mistake to start the machinery of impeachment in the first place, 227 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.399 because it takes the country in a dark place and 228 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:30.519 to no good end, because at the end you not 229 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:35.360 only don't get the president removed, you probably encourage him 230 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.840 in his lawlessness by having tried to take a shot 231 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:44.399 at him and missed. So I'm not insensitive to your 232 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:48.159 point that you want to avoid things that actually won't 233 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.399 work in terms of addressing misconduct. But there are a 234 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.320 range of things

that the Senate can do and that 235 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.799 Congress can do short of impeachment, and that it should 236 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.559 do when they're are abuses of power. And I think 237 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.639 if you tell the president that we're not going to 238 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:10.360 fill these positions, there's a good chance that he'll change. 239 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.919 His behavior will never be perfect because Trump is Trump. 240 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:20.519 But I simply don't accept the proposition that because Trump 241 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.360 is lawless, you were more diplomatic about it. 242 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.000 But I'll just say what I think it is. 243 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:31.559 I think using the Justice Department as an offensive weapon 244 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:36.159 against one's political enemies is a lawless thing to do, 245 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:39.399 and it's an impeachable thing to do. 246 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:44.519 I think that the corrective here for that is. 247 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.720 To take the opportunities that Congress does have and that 248 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.879 the Senate does have with things that they can accomplish 249 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.639 that have a chance to bend that behavior into something 250 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.200 that's more lawful. And I think if you tell the 251 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:01.279 President we're not going to fill your positions, we're not 252 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.519 going to confirm your nominees, you at least have a 253 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.399 chance of bending him into lawful behavior. 254 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.879 Doesn't mean it'll work. It may not work. 255 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.759 On the other hand, I think lawfair is probably the 256 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:20.000 reason that Trump is in office to begin with, and 257 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:24.000 there's a political consequence to this that gets carried along 258 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.919 as well, and I anticipate that largely because of the 259 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.600 way the Justice Department has abused its power over the 260 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.720 last eighteen months. This is going to be a major 261 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:39.200 issue in the election to come, and I don't think 262 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.159 the public likes law fair. Again, I think Trump is 263 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.879 president because the public doesn't like lawfair, and they're not 264 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.679 going to like it anymore when it's committed by Trump 265 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:53.960 in a way that's very unabashed and open and notorious, 266 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.759 almost to the point where you're just convinced that he 267 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.519 absolutely wants his enemies to know he's coming for them. 268 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.279 And that part of the reason I can't get comfortable

269 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:07.079 with Todd as Attorney General is if I'm a senator 270 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.960 and I vote to appoint him at this point on 271 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.400 this record, it's like I'm endorsing the behavior that's gone 272 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.319 on for the last eighteen months, and I don't see 273 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:18.480 how a senator can do that. 274 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.400 I guess my concern to the initial point is I 275 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:30.160 just don't see evidence that stopping this would actually change 276 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.640 Trump's behavior. So I think at the end of the day, 277 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:35.480 he wants people in these roles that he thinks will 278 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.000 do what he wants to do, and the prestige of 279 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:41.799 whether this person is Senate confirmed, I think that would 280 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.640 actually provide some protections to Blanche in terms of breathing room, 281 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.160 because if after Blanche's Senate confirmed, the President tries to 282 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:50.440 get rid of him, he will have people in his 283 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:51.599 ear saying, you know, it's a real pain in the 284 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:52.960 neck to get a new person to ask to go 285 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.319 through the Senate. It might temper the president's desire to 286 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.519 fire him in the future, but as a general matter, 287 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.319 I think he just wants somebody there who will do it. 288 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.640 But to your point about how the Senate has been 289 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.319 able to push back, I agree they have and I 290 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.880 think they've been right to do it. But when they've 291 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.240 done it, they have been able to detect actual leverage 292 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:13.599 points that move the president. 293 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:15.519 Right. So the J. 294 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:20.759 Powell prosecutions, Tom Tillis concluded he's on the Banking Committee 295 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.680 and he wanted Walsh to be Chairman of of the 296 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.319 Federal Reserve, but he told the President, if he's going 297 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:30.039 to get my vote, you got to stop that prosecution, 298 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.880 and eventually did it. With the weaponization fund. They eventually, 299 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.799 you know, it was a little touch and go in 300 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.839 terms of the ICE funding, but that is something the 301 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:40.319 administration desperately needed. 302 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:40.680 And so. 303 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:44.960 I take your point. I think I agree with you 304 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:49.480 that when the president is exceeding his authority in the 305 00:18:49.559

--> 00:18:52.160 view of Congress, they should push back on it, and 306 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:54.640 they should use the tools that they have. I think 307 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:58.559 you just have to calibrate those tools to the desired end. 308 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.559 And I just don't see any real reason to think 309 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:04.160 that this is something that would actually affect the president's 310 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.640 behavior or as there are specific discrete actions where I 311 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:09.440 have no doubt that going forward for the rest of 312 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.359 the year, Tom Tillis and John Cornyn are going to be, 313 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:14.839 you know, looking to see if they have pressure points 314 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:17.640 to stop things that they think are particularly egregious. 315 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.839 Let me just say that I I read your piece, 316 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:27.039 particularly the point that you made. You've written twice on 317 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.000 this for for National Review. I don't know if you've 318 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.680 written elsewhere that I that I haven't caught up with it, 319 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:37.079 but I read your point about Tillius and the effect 320 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.599 that it had on folding the investigation of the FED 321 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.039 and particularly the chairman of the FED, and I emphatically 322 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:46.319 agree with that. 323 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.440 I think it's very important to have. 324 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.160 That the that the tactic that the that the Senate 325 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.839 uses to try to bend the executive's misbehavior or is 326 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:06.240 commensurate with what the misbehavior is and is designed to 327 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.480 cure it in a way and is designed in a 328 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.960 way that you had an example, I think of Vance 329 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.680 saying he was putting a hold on all of the 330 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.279 US attorney the attorney appointments in order to stop the 331 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:30.440 lawfair against Trump, and that was a mismatch between the 332 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.240 tactic and the ambition of the tactics. It was also 333 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.039 a problem in that the you know, the Biden Justice 334 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:43.079 Department denied that it was involved in anything so low 335 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:48.079 as lawfare. Can you imagine, So you know, their position 336 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:51.880 about it was different. But I do think that we're 337 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.720 not talking about blocking every confirmation. We're talking about blocking 338 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:01.799 an attorney general confirmation. I don't I'm not persuaded by 339 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:11.519 your contention that removal that people would be in Trump's 340 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.720 ear about like how easy or hard it would be 341 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.720 to remove a new attorney general, because Trump has already 342 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.519 removed the attorney general. 343 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.119 He had Pam Bondi in. 344 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.119 He moved her out because precisely from what we can gather, 345 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.240 I think there was a lot to do with the 346 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:33.480 mishandling of Epstein. But I also think we know from 347 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.000 the paper trail that Trump was not unhappy with the 348 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:37.640 way that. 349 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.599 The law fair prosecutions were going. 350 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:41.839 There was some that he wanted that she didn't move on, 351 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.240 and there was some that they did move on when 352 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:48.519 she was there, that were such preposterous cases. The one 353 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.200 was thrown out, or I guess two were thrown out. 354 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.640 Comy and James were thrown out because the person that 355 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:02.119 Trump installed to bring the cases after the career prosecutor 356 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.039 told him that there was no case and didn't want 357 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.319 to proceed, he brought in somebody who was under the 358 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:12.640 statute not qualified, not because she was personally not qualified, 359 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:17.400 but because they had already run their time under the 360 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:20.519 acting provision. But again, you know, that's the kind of 361 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.319 thing the Justice Department should have known. The cases themselves 362 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.160 were preposterous. The way that they were brought were preposterous, 363 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.440 But the reason they were brought was because the boss 364 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.480 one of them bought brought and he was very clear 365 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:35.200 with the Bondi about that. And then when Bondi got 366 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:38.640 moved out, the first thing that Todd did was in 367 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.519 Dyke Comy on what I think is one of the 368 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:46.559 most preposterous cases I've ever seen that will there's not 369 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.160 a chance that that case is going to get to trial. So, 370 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.160 you know, I think Trump has already moved out an 371 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:56.799 attorney general. He thinks it was pretty easy to do. 372 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.799 You know, you mentioned in some of the stuff that 373 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:06.599 you that you've written that you know, if Todd gets 374 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:09.440 you know, Todd gets the job, he's going to have 375

00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.119 to be looking over his shoulder because this one or 376 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:16.640 that one might, you know, try to supplant him. 377 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.200 I don't think. 378 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.319 I think we've seen for eighteen months to two years 379 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.599 or whatever it is, that that, you know, Blanche's incentive 380 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.680 is to do what Trump tells him to do. I 381 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.319 don't see how that's going to change one way or 382 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.240 the other, whether he gets whether he's the acting attorney 383 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:35.400 General or whether he gets certified is the full fledged 384 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.440 attorney general. I just don't see it changing. 385 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.119 So I think there's probably a subtle difference between Blanche 386 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.160 and Bondi on that last point, and that my strong 387 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.880 suspicion is that Blanche doesn't take part of the problem 388 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.880 with Bondi is that she was taking orders directly from 389 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.440 the President that he accidentally put on Twitter once, remember, 390 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:56.720 because he didn't think she was doing enough. I think 391 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.359 Blanche has avoided a lot of that by simply using 392 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.839 his relationship with the President to sort of understand what 393 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:05.920 the president wants and sort of affirmatively go ahead with that, 394 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:10.200 maybe not necessarily at the president's direction, which there are 395 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.960 problems with it in so far as those things aren't great, 396 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.240 But at the same time, it's you know, if anything 397 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:21.480 a little bit closer to the old Democrat style law 398 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.200 fair hipocrisy right, where you're not necessarily we're not having 399 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:27.319 the I don't think with Blanche you have the spectacle 400 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.039 of the President telling him you have to go prosecute 401 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.960 these people, much like how Merrick Garland understood who he 402 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.200 was supposed to prosecute. I think Blanche is more sufficiently 403 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:39.200 sophisticated to see that and know that. 404 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:39.559 Now. 405 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:42.920 I agree to you, I don't love that. I didn't 406 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.000 like it at all when the Democrats did it. I 407 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:47.839 don't like it when Republicans do it. I don't really 408 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.000 see a solution to the bigger problem, which is something 409 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:57.880 we can discuss, and that's an issue. But

I think 410 00:24:57.960 --> 00:24:59.799 that makes him a little bit different from Bondi in 411 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:02.200 that guard And again I do think that is a 412 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:05.359 very small percentage what the Department's actually up to. As 413 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.000 to Bondi, yes, the President did get rid of her. 414 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.160 She lasted a decent while she also had problems that 415 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.400 I think Blanche doesn't seem to have, where everything I 416 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:20.039 had heard was that part of why she was so 417 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:24.279 embattled is a problem that is kind of unique to 418 00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.160 this administration, whereby lots of people of the President's phone number, 419 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.240 and if she wasn't doing what he wanted, there were 420 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.119 people in the building who would call him and say, 421 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.359 you know, the Attorney General isn't doing what I want 422 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.880 her to do. And I don't see that as much 423 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.480 happening with Blanche. I mean, reading the papers, it seems 424 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.039 like something like that probably happened with Ed Martin on 425 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:53.759 the weaponization the Weaponization Working Group, which I know National 426 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.599 Review wrote about, which I have a slightly different take 427 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:57.880 on it. It always struck me as a bit of a 428 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.240 rubber room in which to put the people that the 429 00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.119 President wanted to be doing this weaponization stuff so that 430 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:08.640 they're not really infecting real ODAG behavior. And even that, 431 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.759 it seems, was not sufficient for Martin, who, again according 432 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.240 to reports, was complaining about how Blanche wasn't going after 433 00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:19.039 the president's enemies enough, and he wound up getting shifted 434 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:22.559 out of there and putting the DCUSAO or whatever. So 435 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.000 it seems that that was a problem that Bondi had 436 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.680 that it seems that Blanche has a better handle on 437 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:28.400 which is a. 438 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:29.000 Good thing. 439 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:35.359 As to the breathing room of being an actual US attorney. 440 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.400 I think part of My thinking here is also probably 441 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:40.839 just colored by my time in the last administration. I 442 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.960 was there for Sessions, Whittaker, and Barr, and they were 443 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.640 all very well meaning, good public servants, and they all 444 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:53.279 had a very different time of it. With Sessions, he 445 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.240 meant very very well. I think he was a great senator, 446 00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:59.680 He was a great Attorney General in a lot of ways, 447 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:04.079 but he didn't have the ear of the president. He 448 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.119 didn't have the confidence of the president. And because of that, 449 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.000 it was like working like in a fort that was 450 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:10.599 under siege. 451 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:11.319 At all times. 452 00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:18.680 We'd be relying on you know, Rod Rosenstein's yearly Kenny 453 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.640 ability to play celebrity apprentice with people in the White House, 454 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.359 to be able to get the department out of messes. 455 00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.960 Because again, the Sessions always loved the president, but the 456 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:29.720 president didn't love him, and it was a real problem. 457 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:31.839 And so that goes to, you know why, I think 458 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.160 it's important to have somebody in that position for better 459 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:37.480 or worries, who has the ear and respect, ear and 460 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.960 respect of the president, which Todd seems to have. And 461 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.920 then with Whittaker, again he was a good guy. He 462 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.880 had really great people around him, like some of my 463 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:47.400 favorite folks I worked with in the department, were in 464 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:51.440 his front office, but it was highly chaotic. He didn't 465 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:53.440 have the support of the Senate, and they made it 466 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:59.440 very clear he didn't necessarily have full control of the department. 467 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:02.799 There was a lot of backbiting and a lot of 468 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.960 just chaos within the building that when bar showed up, 469 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.599 it was a breath of fresh air, because here's a 470 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.119 guy who has the confidence of the President, the confidence 471 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.000 of the Senate, and knows his business in terms of 472 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:17.640 running the department. And so my worry is if you 473 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.680 have Blanched there as a perennial acting where then you 474 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:26.200 also have some sort of combination of perennial DAGs, you 475 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.279 wind up in a sort of perpetual Whittaker like situation, 476 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.200 which just isn't good for the department. Whereas if you 477 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:37.480 actually confirm Blanche ideally also confirm a dag, you wind 478 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:40.519 up giving them more of a chance to be more 479 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:42.200 bar

like, even if it again it's not going to 480 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.240 be bar it's not going to be mucazy. And I 481 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:48.799 think there's real downstream danger of that that if I 482 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.960 were a senator, I'd be considering and you ed to 483 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.440 some of it. Handy with the business of the US 484 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:58.839 attorneys right where the statutory scheme for these US US 485 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.440 attorneys and we've i think gone back a little bit 486 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.519 and disagreed on some of the constitutional issues there. But 487 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:08.079 putting that aside, it's extraordinarily complex and very easy to 488 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.000 like run a foul of it. It's also in some 489 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:12.920 ways easy to get the person that you want there, 490 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:15.680 but you have to be crossing your t's and dotting 491 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.039 your eyes otherwise you're gonna wind up getting a bunch 492 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:21.839 of convictions thrown out. Essentially, we ran into this at 493 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.960 DHS last time, where the senior leadership of the department 494 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.079 by the end of the administration was all individuals performing 495 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:32.640 the duties of black right. So you had Chad Wolfe. 496 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:35.799 I'm even sure if it was acting secretary, he was 497 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.839 performing the duties of the acting Secretary. Ken Kuchinelli was 498 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:42.799 performing the duties of the deputy Chad Maizel. I don't 499 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.119 remember if he was Senate confirmed GC. I think he 500 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.640 might have been acting GC. It was just actings up 501 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:52.400 and down to the extent that I was doing nominations 502 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.519 on the Judiciary Committee, getting calls from friends of mine 503 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:58.160 at DHS saying can you please stop doing some of 504 00:29:58.200 --> 00:29:59.720 these judges in the lame Duck. We need to get 505 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.720 cheats Wolf confirmed because otherwise all of our eggs are 506 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:04.319 going to get thrown out. And we were just like 507 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.240 we're losing power. In two months, we're getting all the 508 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.640 judges we can get done. But they're concern wasn't wrong. 509 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:13.519 They wound up getting whole bunch of bregs thrown out 510 00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.319 because when you have actings up and down the org chart, 511 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.480 it can be pretty easy to run a foul of 512 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.519 the Vacancy's Reform Act and then all you need is 513 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:23.559 you know, the right case in front of Judge Chuckkin 514 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.279 or whatever, and a lot of stuff winds up getting 515 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:26.839 thrown out. 516 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:28.079 So I think there is a. 517 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:33.720 Real, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but by twenty 518 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.920 twenty eight, absolutely a governance concern that if I were 519 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.759 a center Republican would really worry me about having just 520 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:42.160 actings running this whole show. 521 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:45.279 Yeah, I hear all that. 522 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.480 I just don't think that the problem here is structural 523 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:56.640 in terms of actings versus actually full fledged Senate confirmed appointees. 524 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.200 I think the problem is President Trump. I mean, he's 525 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:04.880 a chaotic person, and when you know the the history 526 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.759 that you just charted out with respect to Sessions and 527 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.200 Whittaker and Barr, and I appreciate that you were there 528 00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:17.200 and I wasn't, But you know, I do know those guys, 529 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.839 and I am quite familiar with the history. And I 530 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:24.240 don't think you know, the reason that the President didn't 531 00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:27.200 trust Sessions was over one decision. 532 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:27.799 It was. 533 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.559 I agree with you that other than that you know Sessions, 534 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.519 I would say, including that Sessions was a fabulous attorney general. 535 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:39.359 I think he was a he was very loyal to 536 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:43.119 a strong, solid law enforcement agenda. He was a very 537 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:48.319 good attorney general to Trump. But he recused himself from 538 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.920 Russia Gate, and to my you know, I, as I 539 00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.920 said at the time, when he did this, I thought 540 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.359 his recusal was too sweeping, and I thought that he 541 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:05.440 maybe paydaid too much credence to the to the people 542 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.759 in the Justice Department, career staff, the career staff who. 543 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.720 Was giving the end of the day, it was on 544 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:12.319 some yeah, but I but. 545 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.799 I do think that it wasn't that it wasn't that 546 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:19.079 he was under siege. He was under sieged for a 547 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:24.640 very particular reason which was politically explosive. 548 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:29.160 And when Whitark it came in. It wasn't that the. 549 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.519 Democrats were opposed to him because he was an acting 550 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.599 or he

didn't have the full array of power. It 551 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.480 was that Trump was They thought that what Trump did 552 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.440 to Sessions was wrong, and they decided that they were 553 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:43.640 going to give a hard time to. 554 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.000 Whoever Trump put in. I don't think it was personal. 555 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:50.480 It was Republicans who just didn't like that the way 556 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.720 that Trump went about putting him in as acting some 557 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:55.799 some didn't like what he did to Sessions, like Ben 558 00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:59.160 Sass was a staunch Sessions defender. Others like Senator Graham, 559 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.039 I don't think he really cared one way or the 560 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:05.519 other what he was doing to Sessimons and so uh, 561 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.880 there was just I think a lot of h befunnelment 562 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.000 and confusion as to why Trump was doing this. And 563 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:14.039 I think that's also why they put pressure on Trump 564 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:17.759 to actually get somebody to do the job long term. 565 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.400 Which let me let me doing well. 566 00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.720 Let me put let me ask you this then, because 567 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.599 I don't think this is I don't think this is happenstance. 568 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:26.960 I think this is a plan. 569 00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:32.240 Am I wrong to say that Trump before he was 570 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:33.160 even in office? 571 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:37.599 In the second term. 572 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:40.920 Was beginning to float schemes for how he would get 573 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:46.000 around the appointments clause uh and the need to get 574 00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:50.200 Senate confirmation uh, and try to figure out how he 575 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:54.279 could either provoke recesses so he could try to do 576 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.319 recess appointments in the kind of figazy way that that 577 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:02.519 Obama did it, uh, and otherwise has been trying to 578 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.599 put in people and strain as far as he could 579 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:06.960 strain the. 580 00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:09.599 Replacements Act. 581 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.480 And you know the provisions it's at five point forty 582 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.440 six and the other provisions of law that we talk 583 00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:20.360 about a million times, whether the president's trying to put 584 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.159 an acting in or trying to put somebody who's an 585 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:27.519 interim in. They have extended those as about as far 586 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:33.440 as you could extend them, precisely to avoid Senate confirmation. 587 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.199 And isn't that a large part of the reason that 588 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.760 you get to the point where you have actings all 589 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:44.199 over the place. It's not that it's I think the 590 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.280 problem here is the way the president has gone about 591 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.280 this and has been so adamant that he has to 592 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:54.039 have people he personally trusts in these positions, whether or 593 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.119 not he thinks they can get confirmed and the reason 594 00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:00.440 that we have actings all over the place is not 595 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:05.000 I mean, look, maybe there's slow walking by the Democrats. 596 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.159 That's what they do, that's politics. I get that, But 597 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.559 a lot of this isn't it. Isn't it true that 598 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.400 a lot of this has to do with the President 599 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.599 actually trying to subvert the process of confirmation. 600 00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.079 I think that's probably right. 601 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.199 I mean, I think it goes to part of why 602 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:25.920 I don't think refusing to confirm Blanche would actually really 603 00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:28.719 do much to get the president's thinking to change. I 604 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:33.559 don't think he necessarily puts a ton of credence in 605 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:36.679 why it matters to get these people Senate confirmed. I 606 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:38.360 do think on the back end you could get in 607 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:39.880 Zier about why it's just a pain in the neck 608 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:43.840 to have to do it again. But he's I think 609 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.239 you're right that he seems to have come in with 610 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.320 an eye towards trying to avoid this. I remember what 611 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.760 was it November twenty twenty four where he got going 612 00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:57.920 on recess appointments, and I want to say, was it 613 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.960 pale Letta put out a big paper about why recess 614 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.440 appointments are totally constitutional and totally legitimate, and I remember 615 00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:09.159 there was this day that McConnell got an award from AEI, 616 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.079 and Door asked him about it, so it was in 617 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:14.360 the news. He's like, yeah, we're not doing it. 618 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:21.880 So I think he does. He has had that attitude. 619 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.360 Frankly, I expected going in that I had been hearing 620 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:30.000 rumors that they were thinking just actings everywhere, all times whenever. 621 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:32.440 Those are the rumors I had been hearing, and so 622 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.159 I was actually a little surprised at the extent to 623

00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.800 which they really went through the Senate process in the end, 624 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.559 through I think, confirmed record numbers of people in his 625 00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.440 first year and wound up coming up with the whole 626 00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.440 system by which to avoid Democrat obstruction on sort of 627 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.280 lower level nominees. So they actually are confirming a lot 628 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.440 of people in the end, And so I think it's 629 00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.079 fair to say that they came in with an idea 630 00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:57.559 of how can we avoid sort of responding to the 631 00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:01.800 Senate in our personnel decisions, but practically speaking walked back 632 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.280 a lot of that when they actually came into power 633 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.960 to actually get Senate confirmation. They have gotten Senate confirmation 634 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.480 for a lot of people. I think you want to 635 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.639 run into trouble with US attorneys because you have the 636 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:15.159 blue slip, and that's one where again that there are 637 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:19.400 a host of different ways where you can avoid senate 638 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:25.760 confirmation and actually still have your person run that office. 639 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:26.639 Time. 640 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.079 Yeah, I think that they eventually figured it out in 641 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:33.880 La what's his name is, Ellie Billy out there. 642 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:36.800 He is a very very very sharp. 643 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.920 Appellate council in his office who I think is one 644 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:41.280 of the reasons why he's one of the few who 645 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.159 has actually been able to stay in office as a 646 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:48.360 perennial fausa essentially, But as I understand it, he's also 647 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:50.280 happy being a perennial fauso as long as he's in 648 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.960 charge of his office. For whatever reason, I think some 649 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:56.840 of these folks out east really wanted, really wanted the 650 00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.480 title for some reason. I think there's probably a way 651 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.119 that Alina Habba could still be a perennial fausa in 652 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:06.920 New Jersey, but it seems like she didn't want that. 653 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.039 It seems like Lindsay Halligan didn't want that and so 654 00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:14.599 ordinarily byzantine ways of doing it, and. 655 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:19.000 But Todd wants it, you know, I mean, that's the 656 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:20.199 that's the way this works. 657 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:21.039 They want the title. 658 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:26.400 We're having this discussion because Todd isn't content to be acting. 659 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.679 He wants to be the full fledged attorney general. That's 660 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.239 the way this goes. Let me let me ask you 661 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:35.519 something else. One of the things I thought was really 662 00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.800 disturbing about one of the more disturbing things I think 663 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.360 Blanche has done, which is his role in the settlement 664 00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:47.039 of the I R S case, Trump's personal suit against 665 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.039 the I R S, which we're still I understand that 666 00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:54.840 that's still rolling around in the in the court. And 667 00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:57.079 is it Judge Brinkhama judge. 668 00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:59.800 Yeah, they're going back and forth with brink Maha, right. 669 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:03.039 So, but one of the things I thought was disturbing 670 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:08.239 is that. And to the background to this is I 671 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:10.880 have thought from the beginning of the administration that one 672 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:14.719 of the purposes of this Weaponization Working Group, and a 673 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.679 lot of what their messaging has been from the beginning. 674 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:23.559 Is to is to to. 675 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:28.400 Discredit the investigations that were done against Trump, to cast 676 00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:32.599 them as if they were completely fake and based on 677 00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:35.599 absolutely no misconduct, just. 678 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:40.880 Sheer law, fair, woven out of the uh, woven out 679 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:41.320 of nothing. 680 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:48.239 And I was a big critic of Jack Smith's Capital 681 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:53.199 Riot investigation. I don't think I don't think there's any 682 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.360 question that the Justice Department would have had it was 683 00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:59.679 absolutely legitimate for the Justice Department to investigate the Capital 684 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:03.159 riot and Trump's role in it. I do think the 685 00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.960 way that it played out that they were trying basically 686 00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:12.840 to use a criminal investigation with no eye toward whether 687 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.000 the president had any immunity or not, and was actually 688 00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:20.599 practically prosecutable under the circumstances. I think they did use 689 00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:25.599 that as a proxy for a failed impeachment, which failed 690 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:29.760 mainly because I thought the Democrat led Congress in twenty 691 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:33.159 twenty one went about it in a very politicized and 692 00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:39.559 incompetent way, and then they tried to use the Jack 693 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.360 Smith prosecution of that as a

kind of a both 694 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:48.159 a cleanup operation and to the extent that investigation I 695 00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:51.760 think was law fair. It was because it was governed 696 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:55.880 by the political calendar, But I don't think that means 697 00:40:55.880 --> 00:41:00.280 that the underlying misconduct was not misconduct. Whether or not 698 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:05.360 it was criminal is a different matter. The Mara Lago case, 699 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:10.519 I think was clearly based on criminal conduct and would 700 00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:15.760 in fact have resulted in a conviction if Smith hadn't 701 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:18.000 overcharged it. I think that you know any of us 702 00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:22.360 who have actually prosecuted a case that involves classified information, 703 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:26.880 where you know, the Classified Information Procedures Act kicks in 704 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:29.559 and you basically have to have a pre trial trial 705 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:32.679 of the trial where the court makes all kinds of 706 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:36.159 rulings about whether you know, the evidence of the prosecutor 707 00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.599 wants to put in his admissible, what the defense wants 708 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.599 to put in his admissible. They're very hard cases to 709 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:46.880 get to trial. They can't get to trial in anything 710 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.599 like what the normal track would be for a normal case. 711 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:53.440 And if Smith had indicted that as just a simple 712 00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:58.000 obstruction of the grand jury case, he would have had 713 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.519 a chance to get that trial. And it was serious 714 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.559 misconduct because there was significant evidence that Trump had lied 715 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.639 to the FBI about whether he was hoarding documents or not. Now, 716 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:11.000 I'm not saying he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 717 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:11.519 He didn't. 718 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:13.400 He never got a trial, and he didn't get a 719 00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:15.679 trial in the other case either. But I don't think 720 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:22.039 either of them was based on frivolity or was based 721 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.800 on you know, it was just law fair through and through. 722 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.320 For example, I thought. 723 00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:30.519 That the the brag prosecution in New York was lawfair 724 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.400 through and through that wasn't a crime. They just they 725 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:37.599 essentially made something up and labeled it as a crime 726 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.159 and got a very compliant judge who helped them along 727 00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:45.880 the way. And I think with respect to the civil 728 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:51.239 prosecution of Trump by the New York Attorney General, Letitia James, 729 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.440 that was also a I don't want to say it 730 00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:57.280 was a made up case, because I think there's a 731 00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:01.559 lot of evidence that Trump did exactly his assets, but 732 00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.880 it was an unprecedented case in that she took a 733 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:09.199 consumer protection statute and applied it in a situation that 734 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:12.199 it had no application in where you were dealing with 735 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:17.159 sophisticated financial actors on both sides whose whole business was 736 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:21.000 to appraise risk. So I think that case was nonsense. 737 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.079 I think the New York cases of nonsense. To the 738 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.119 extent Trump says that you know it was all fake 739 00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:31.840 phony law fair, I'm with him, But I don't think 740 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.000 that the Jack Smith cases are based on nothing. And 741 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:40.679 the reason I raise it in the context of Blanche's 742 00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:46.360 role in the settlement is that in the actual settlement 743 00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.840 papers in Trump's suit with the Irs, there are references 744 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.679 that are made to Smith's cases as if they were 745 00:43:55.079 --> 00:44:00.880 completely made up fraudulent cases, and I kind of find it. 746 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.400 Having been at the Justice Department for a very long time, 747 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:08.880 I find it astonishing to see the upper tier of 748 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:15.559 the Justice Department just label two major investigations by the 749 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.239 Justice Department as if they were completely fraudulent when it 750 00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:22.280 seems to me that there was significant misconduct that the 751 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.639 Justice Department had every reason to investigate. 752 00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.840 Yeah, I guess I just probably don't see eye to 753 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:33.960 eye about how legitimate those investigations were. I agree that 754 00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.079 they're more serious than the New York ones, which were 755 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:39.679 for Gayzy, as you said earlier. 756 00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:41.000 But. 757 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.480 I think with the Jack Smith investigations, I just I 758 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:49.639 think a couple underlying issues. One is that if you're 759 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:53.199 looking to prosecute the former president of the United States, 760 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:57.960 that is just, as a matter of tradition in this country, 761 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:01.920 very very very unusual. It's the kind of thing that 762 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:05.559 happens in like you know, Brazil,

right. It's a sort 763 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:08.559 of Latin American construct of how you treat people who 764 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:11.159 are out of office. And so does that mean that they, 765 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.599 you know, are immune to the law. No, but it 766 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.159 means I think you have to be pretty pretty serious 767 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.079 about what you're going after them. For I don't think 768 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:27.519 with the January sixth investigation, I didn't see it as 769 00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:31.360 being a particularly good use of the Department's time, given 770 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.880 that high threshold, given how far away it was from 771 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:38.079 the acts in question. Right, that issue had been litigated 772 00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:41.079 politically in terms of the impeachment. There was the you know, 773 00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:45.480 Select Committee that looked at it forever. According to the reports, 774 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:48.480 you know, the Biden administration was kind of frustrated that 775 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:50.559 Garland wasn't moving fast enough on it, and then of 776 00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:55.440 Garland eventually did move on it any appointed Jack Smith, 777 00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:57.039 which I think is sort of another issue. I mean, 778 00:45:57.320 --> 00:45:59.440 you know, generally of the view. I don't know, can't 779 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:04.000 remember if you've on this or not, but something like that. Again, 780 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:08.320 it's just sort of further DOJ independent hypocrisy to give 781 00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.920 it off to Jack Smith and say like this is oh, 782 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:14.880 independent prosecutors looking at this case that we know everybody 783 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.960 from the President on down to the DAG he desperately 784 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.960 want let me Barton Dunnet himself. 785 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.559 Yeah, let me agree with you again on that. I 786 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:24.840 did write about this at the time. 787 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.639 I didn't think his appointment was compliant with the Special 788 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.039 Council regulations. I didn't think there was a conflict of interest. 789 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:36.119 The Biden Justice Department had been investigating for about eighteen 790 00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:39.639 months or more when Smith was appointed. The idea that 791 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:44.119 they couldn't was ridiculous. The reason he was appointed was 792 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.639 exactly what you suggest, which is to try to pretend 793 00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.360 that Biden didn't have anything to do with exactly what 794 00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:53.480 Biden was doing, which was having his opponent in the 795 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:57.000 next election subjected to a criminal investigation. 796 00:46:57.360

--> 00:46:58.400 I agree with all that. 797 00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:03.159 I even agree that, uh, if it was my call, 798 00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:08.800 my exercise of discretion, I would have exercised discretion to 799 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:10.800 not indict Trump. 800 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:12.480 I'm not I'm not saying that I. 801 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.320 Thought this was a proper use of the Justice Department's time. 802 00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:20.840 I think that again, I thought the Capitol riot case 803 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:24.800 or the January sixth case was a proxy for failed. 804 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.920 And competent impeachment. 805 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:29.440 And as far as the mari A Lago case is concerned, 806 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.039 I thought there was very serious misconduct. But I also 807 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:33.880 think that, you know, there's a lot of people who've 808 00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:35.719 committed similar misconduct that the. 809 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.599 So I think that's that's the That's what I run 810 00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:43.800 into with mar A Lago is to your point, if 811 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:45.440 you're going to do that and do it right. It's 812 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.840 extraordinarily complex. It's gonna take forever, and so maybe the 813 00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.079 overcharge you should have just done something like obstruction on 814 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:58.840 the grand jury. I guess I get very queasy at 815 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:03.880 sport of doing process charges against a former president. You've got, 816 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:08.559 you know, Bill Clinton committed perjury, he got disbarred for it. 817 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:09.119 He's a lawyer. 818 00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:12.800 As a lawyer, he has subsequent, you know, independent obligations 819 00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:15.440 from his role as president or whatever, and so he 820 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:18.360 faced sanction for that, and that seems entirely appropriate. But 821 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:25.280 the kind of you know, classic process charge thing that 822 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.719 you know, federal prosecutors love to use, going using that 823 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.280 against the former president, I don't love. I think there 824 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.400 are a lot of complexities when you're dealing like I 825 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.880 don't buy like obviously the he declassified it with his 826 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:41.199 mind argument like that certain friends of mine make, don't 827 00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:44.920 I don't buy that, of course, But I do think 828 00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:50.000 it does get a little complicated. Having had to deal 829 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:53.480 with a fair amount of p r A issues over 830 00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:58.519 the years, leaving a side its constitutionality, which ohl See 831 00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.920 recently oppined on that it's not constitutional. And I've been 832 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:03.920 surprised since then to find how many sort of like 833 00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:08.880 very serious conservative mainstream people agree with that. But putting 834 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.119 that aside like you do, it gets complicated when you're 835 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:17.800 dealing with the president because classification, who owns the records, 836 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:22.679 things like that are a function of the executive and 837 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:27.079 it gets tricky when you're dealing with former executives. Republicans 838 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:30.440 tend to have a pretty broad view about historically what 839 00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:35.360 former executives get to claim, while Democrats do not, I think, 840 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:37.159 frankly for lawfair purposes. 841 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:39.000 George W. 842 00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:43.840 Bush promulgated rags that obviously former presidents control have full 843 00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:46.760 control over their records because his dad was going to 844 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:49.039 keep control of his records. And then as soon as 845 00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:51.559 Obama comes in like absolutely not, we're not doing that. 846 00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:54.920 I get to control what that war criminal to push 847 00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:59.239 keeps right, And so that winds up being again kind 848 00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:02.920 of complicated. It is a practical constitutional matter, and so 849 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.880 I just don't think it necessarily meets a threshold of 850 00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:09.760 what a prosecutor should be doing now as to it 851 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:17.440 being in the weaponization IRS proposed settlement. I mean, in 852 00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:21.880 an ideal world, Blanche did more for the president on 853 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.599 all of that. With the immunity decision at the Supreme 854 00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.280 Court than any of this will do. And it would 855 00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:32.679 be great if the President simply recognized that and let 856 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:36.159 this other stuff slide. But you know, that's simply not 857 00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:40.000 who he is. And in terms of the sort of 858 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:44.079 practical question at hand, it's just not if I were 859 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:45.800 a Republican centater, I don't think it's the sort of 860 00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:49.519 backward looking thing that I would be too concerned about 861 00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:53.039 when casting a vote about essentially what will the Department 862 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:54.000 of Justice look like for. 863 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:56.239 The next two and a half years. 864 00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:58.079 Yeah, I just think that. 865 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:04.760 If an imperative of the Justice Department is to whitewash 866 00:51:04.840 -->

00:51:08.679 the seriousness of the underlying conduct as opposed to whether 867 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:14.079 it was a prudent exercise of discretion to bring the cases, 868 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:19.840 I you know, I agree that it wasn't a prudent 869 00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.639 exercise of discretion to bring the cases, certainly as they 870 00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:26.199 were charged. I probably have a different view of it 871 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:29.079 if Smith had brought a more. 872 00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.440 Narrow case, because while I agree with you that. 873 00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:38.119 Indicting a president or a former president is the kind 874 00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.199 of thing that you know, you expect out of a 875 00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:44.079 third world countries, we don't want our country to go 876 00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:47.519 in that direction, the incentive that it creates for the 877 00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:51.599 next party when it comes in to do the same 878 00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:55.960 sort of thing is too high and ruinous. And for 879 00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:00.760 that reason, I don't think that those cases were proved brought. 880 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:03.559 But I might feel differently about it if it was 881 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:07.960 just narrowly about obstructing the grand jury, which I think 882 00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.199 happened when Trump was out of office and after he 883 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:19.079 had been given a number of opportunities to provide or 884 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:24.480 to return the documents. And also, you know, if he 885 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.719 thought that those documents were his and all the arguments 886 00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.400 that people we both know and like have made in 887 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.719 his behalf were valid arguments, he could have marched into 888 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:40.639 federal court and said, quashed the subpoena, those are my documents. 889 00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:43.960 And instead he misled the FBI and the grand jury. 890 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:47.480 At least that's what the evidence suggests. So I might 891 00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.360 feel differently about it if Smith had brought. 892 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:52.000 A narrow case. 893 00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:55.039 I still think it would be a close call on 894 00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:58.639 whether you exercise discretion, given what the prior history and 895 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.079 this sort of stuff is. But I do think it's 896 00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:05.559 a terrible mistake for the Justice Department to contend that 897 00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:10.400 two things that were absolutely legitimate for the Justice Department 898 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:15.039 to look into and that did uncover misconduct. Whether it 899 00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.719 was a criminal misconduct is a different story. But for 900 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:21.159 the Justice Department to treat that as if it was 901 00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:25.599 just complete fake and you know, completely fake and phony, 902 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:29.719 I just think is a is a terrible mistake, and 903 00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:33.000 it's the kind of thing I would imagine that can 904 00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:36.719 make for some difficult questions for Blanche to answer it 905 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:38.840 as confirmation hearings. 906 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.079 Do you think that's that different in theory. Just thinking 907 00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:49.920 about it now, from say when Biden took over, there 908 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:52.400 were a number of cases public charge comes to mind 909 00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:57.440 where the Garland Justice Department didn't, you know, change the 910 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.480 rule or anything like that. They just marched to court 911 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.360 and said, yeah, the planeiffs, we agree with the national 912 00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:09.000 injunction you've put on this rule. PLANEUS win. They started, 913 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:13.440 and Trump's doing it now in Texas. But they started 914 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:19.639 this business of regulation by especially acquiescence to national intewnship. 915 00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:25.719 That I mean conceptually, that's saying like, yeah, no, what 916 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:32.519 this DOJ policy was unlawful. We agree this was unlawful, 917 00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:36.599 and therefore, you know, the La Raza or whoever wins. 918 00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:39.360 It seems that it's not. 919 00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:45.079 That unusual for one, you know, administration's DOJ to cast 920 00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:48.400 dispersion on a previous administration DOJ activity. And I think 921 00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:50.840 that that seems like one sort of just again, thinking 922 00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:53.199 about it now, public example that I think is basically 923 00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:54.000 doing the same thing. 924 00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.440 Yeah, I look, I agree with you that there are 925 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:05.039 situations where, often, for policy driven reasons, I guess always, 926 00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:10.559 for policy driven reasons, one Justice Department will countermand what 927 00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:13.760 another Justice department has done and be very critical of it. 928 00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:17.039 I think this is very different because this is not 929 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.760 this is not merely a change of policy. This is 930 00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:27.800 taking behavior that was bad behavior and acting either like 931 00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:32.840 it didn't happen or that it was fine. And under 932 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:38.239 circumstances to have a situation where the Justice Department is 933 00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:41.639 taking that position with respect to Trump and then throwing 934 00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:45.599 the book at

Bolton or having a case against Komy 935 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:49.400 that accuses him of calling for the murder of the 936 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:53.119 President on the kind of nonsense that is in that indictment, 937 00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:56.000 I don't see how they can. I mean, it's so 938 00:55:56.199 --> 00:56:00.480 hyper political to take such different positions with respect to 939 00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:04.199 a case that actually did involve very serious misconduct. And 940 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.079 then these other cases which. 941 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:07.599 You know. 942 00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:09.840 I mean, we all know that if Bolton had written 943 00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:12.360 a book that was complimentary of Trump, there's no way 944 00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:18.960 he gets prosecuted for uh, for mishandling classified information. We 945 00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:24.719 all know that. It's yeah, no, it's I'm not saying 946 00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:26.719 there's no case investigation. 947 00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:28.800 I wasn't. I thought I thought it was Biden's US 948 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:29.440 Attorney office. 949 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:33.079 To one, it's got a it's got a strange history, 950 00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:34.960 which we probably don't have time to get into, but 951 00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:38.079 it's it's got The book review happened under Trump, and 952 00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:41.440 then there was an investigation that kind of bridged into Biden, 953 00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:43.800 and then it got dropped, but it got picked up 954 00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:46.920 again when you know the new administration, the new Trump 955 00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:51.000 administration came in. My My only point is that I 956 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:53.119 think if you're going to take the position that the 957 00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:56.639 conduct that Trump was investigated for was unserious, which I 958 00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:59.480 don't think is true, it's very odd to be taking 959 00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:02.519 the kind of position that they're taking in these cases 960 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:06.360 against Trump's enemies, and I don't know how he's going 961 00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:07.719 to be able to justify that. 962 00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.559 I need to jump in because we are now out 963 00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:13.480 of time. Thank you very much for a very enlightening 964 00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:17.519 and informative discussion. We'll now move to closing statements. Andy, 965 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:19.400 E're up two minutes. Of course. 966 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.960 Well, thank you, Henry, and also thanks to Mike, because 967 00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:27.000 I think I have so much respect for him and 968 00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:30.800 enjoy his work. But also I think a conversation like 969 00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:34.039 this demonstrates that we actually have a lot of common 970 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.360 ground and want

a lot of the same things, even 971 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:40.119 if we're not united. On the bottom line, I think 972 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.920 if I could get a Justice Department run by Mike Fragoso, 973 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:47.679 I'd be quite happy with that. I do think it 974 00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:50.440 comes down to what we discussed at the beginning, which 975 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.639 is you have to make an assessment of what you 976 00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:56.360 think the role of Congresses and what you think the 977 00:57:56.480 --> 00:58:00.719 role of the Senate is in this posture. I can't 978 00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:07.199 comfortably take the position that we should accept as a 979 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:11.480 given that President Trump is going to be lawless, and 980 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:14.440 therefore what the job of the Senate is is to 981 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.599 try to get somebody in there who might make him 982 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:22.360 marginally less lawless. I think the job of the Senate 983 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:26.199 is to say that we're not going to tolerate the 984 00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.519 kind of behavior that we're getting out of this Justice Department, 985 00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:31.599 and to the extent that we have the power to 986 00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:36.639 address it. We're not going to give you your nominees, particularly 987 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:40.280 a nominee who has been there through all of the misconduct, 988 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.039 and you know, maybe he's fought. 989 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:43.880 Off some of it. 990 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:48.760 There are reports that Blanche has stopped some of the 991 00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:52.599 more I don't want to say crazy, but at least, 992 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:58.159 you know, the more irregular things that Trump wanted done 993 00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:02.320 and that some people who are his minions and the 994 00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:05.480 Justice Department were willing to done to do. There are 995 00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:09.119 reports that Blanche pushed back on a lot of that. 996 00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:13.599 But the fact of the matter is he's part and 997 00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:17.719 parcel of most of it. And I guess if I 998 00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:20.519 agreed with Mike that what we were talking about was 999 00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:27.000 one percent of the work of the Justice Department and 1000 00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:29.480 that it wasn't a very I don't want to put 1001 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:31.239 words in Mike's mouth because I don't think he said this, 1002 00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:34.039 but the impression that it's not a very important one 1003 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.519 percent when you think about the greater scheme of things 1004 00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:40.559 and how well the Justice Department is otherwise pursuing a 1005 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:45.320 strong law and order agenda, I must say, I just 1006 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:48.800 can't see it that way. I don't think it's just 1007 00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:54.679 one percent. I think it's very The quantum of lawlessness 1008 00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:59.119 that has gone on and the seriousness of it and 1009 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:05.000 the unabashed nature of it is something. Look, I don't 1010 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:08.559 think that the Senate can, in good conscience look the 1011 01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:12.760 other way about. And I don't think their job is 1012 01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:16.400 to try to make the Justice Department work a little 1013 01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:19.800 bit better. Accepting the fact that the president is just 1014 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:21.719 going to be lawless and we have to deal with 1015 01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:23.880 that as a given and try to work it out 1016 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:26.519 as best we can. I think it's the Senate's job 1017 01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:30.159 to respond to that and to not take actions that 1018 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:34.079 appear to have the Republican Senate endorsing the Justice Department 1019 01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:40.480 being abused in this fashion. So I wish I could 1020 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:44.559 take a different position. I really had high hopes for 1021 01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:48.639 Todd blanche As I said, I hope that because of 1022 01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:53.840 his federal experience, his sovereign District of New York experience, 1023 01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:57.639 that he would be a real asset to Pam Bondi 1024 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.559 and that the Justice Department wouldn't go in this direction. 1025 01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:06.639 I really hoped that he would prioritize the institution over 1026 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:11.760 the president's demands. I think a strong attorney general or 1027 01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.639 deputy attorney general is supposed to convince the president when 1028 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.719 he's doing something that's lawless or outside of a norm, 1029 01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:21.920 why the Norman is important and why the law is 1030 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:26.239 important to uphold. And I've been very disappointed in his 1031 01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:28.760 performance in that regard, and I wouldn't be able to 1032 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:30.039 confirm him. 1033 01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:34.280 My final word is yours, thank you, thanks again for 1034 01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:35.760 having me, and he was great talking to you. 1035 01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:36.599 I really enjoyed that. 1036 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:40.239 At the end of the day, I think the issues 1037 01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:44.400 that cause heartburn with Blanche are they really are a 1038 01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:46.519 very small percentage of what the Department of Justice is 1039 01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:48.920 doing at any given time. The responsibilities of the Department 1040 01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:55.119 are vast,

They're sweeping, and I think again in the vast, vast, 1041 01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:57.679 vast majority of cases, they are doing it well under 1042 01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:02.840 challenging circumstances. Read about some of the stuff that the 1043 01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:05.320 President is demanding that the Department does, and that and 1044 01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.480 he doesn't like, and that I for the most part, 1045 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:10.920 don't like either, But we don't necessarily read about the 1046 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:12.840 other side of it. And so I think there are 1047 01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:15.320 benefits to having someone and there have been benefits to 1048 01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.679 having someone in Blanche's position that has the President's trust 1049 01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:23.000 that we might not necessarily see so, for example, the 1050 01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:25.880 Supreme Court win rate of this listener General's office is 1051 01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:28.519 staggeringly high. As of earlier this year, is at like 1052 01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:32.159 ninety percent when the court actually reached a decision. A 1053 01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:36.280 big part of that is that the President trusts Blanche, 1054 01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:39.079 and he trusts sour as his former lawyers, to tell 1055 01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:40.880 him what case is to take and what cases not 1056 01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:42.719 to If it we're up to the president, I'm sure 1057 01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:44.960 they'd take up everything and it would be terrible for 1058 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:46.880 the law, it will be terrible for the Department, be 1059 01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.960 terrible for the country. But because they have the president's trust, 1060 01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:52.400 they're able to tell him, no, trust us to pick 1061 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.800 our battles. We know how to pick these ones and win, 1062 01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:56.679 and they've been doing it, and so I think that 1063 01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:59.079 is probably playing out in all sorts of other areas 1064 01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:01.559 of the Department that we don't don't necessarily see. I 1065 01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:04.559 think Blanche is in the ideal position to keep doing 1066 01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:07.920 that because of the trust that the President has in him. 1067 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:09.559 And so at the end of the day, if you're 1068 01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:13.280 a Republican senator, the question isn't really about Blanche. It's 1069 01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:16.119 about the Department of Justice and how to best steward 1070 01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:19.639 the Department of Justice, given the realities of President Trump, 1071 01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:22.639 given the realities of the nature of Senate leverage, and 1072 01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:25.159 things like that, And so I think you've got three choices. 1073 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:28.039 You can oppose Blanche to send a message while he 1074 01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:31.519 stays in his current position, which is essentially expending capital 1075 01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:35.039 for no real practical mess benefit. So you know, mcconall 1076 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.639 calls make a point, not a law. You can oppose 1077 01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:41.199 Blanche with a night towards getting an alternative. Senate Republicans 1078 01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:43.199 should really not like that, because they will not like 1079 01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:46.960 whatever is in door number two. It's probably beyond their imagination. 1080 01:03:48.199 --> 01:03:50.760 Or third, which is where I fall. You can support 1081 01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.400 Blanche recognizing that because Trump is the president and all 1082 01:03:54.440 --> 01:03:58.320 that entails, Blanche is the best guy available for running 1083 01:03:58.360 --> 01:03:59.840 the Department of Justice for the next two and a half. 1084 01:03:59.880 --> 01:04:03.719 Ye thank you Mike, thank you Andy, and thank you listeners. 1085 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:07.639 Please join me again in two weeks for another episode 1086 01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:10.360 of Conservative cross Folds. Take care