Ep 235, Creating Systems That Motivate People의 전체 녹취록

stories and and i've 00:04:29.176 --> 00:04:32.402 seen that in myself with work i was in one work experience that, 00:04:32.936 --> 00:04:38.546 was really difficult but looking back i see that i was giving my power away 00:04:38.546 --> 00:04:39.838 i was blaming other people, 00:04:40.418 --> 00:04:44.716 and having distance and being able to see what could i have done differently 00:04:44.716 --> 00:04:49.515 oh it turns out there's a lot of things i could have done or conversations i could have had and, 00:04:50.182 --> 00:04:53.718 and it really has changed that experience for me. 00:04:53.898 --> 00:04:58.616 At the time I did suffer, but now I see that I was complicit in my own suffering 00:04:58.616 --> 00:05:02.686 and that I prolonged it and I could have done something different about it. 00:05:03.145 --> 00:05:08.886 And there's something about perspective and the idea that even the past is in 00:05:08.886 --> 00:05:12.833 flux because it's how we're viewing it. And as you so eloquently said, 00:05:13.013 --> 00:05:14.987 how is it serving me a particular narrative? 00:05:15.983 --> 00:05:20.520 That is very true. However, I don't think that is the norm, because I don't 00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:22.483 think that a lot of people are aware of this topic. 00:05:22.872 --> 00:05:24.666 They don't know that they can change the story. 00:05:25.212 --> 00:05:29.072 Like, you know, Ray Dalio said that pain plus reflection equals progress. 00:05:29.461 --> 00:05:32.880 So the pain is given. We get it. Reflection? 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:37.440 I think that's out of stock most of the time. so a lot of people go back to 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:44.177 the same circle experiencing the same things and instead of taking responsibility or taking control. 00:05:45.599 --> 00:05:49.830 They run into the same issue they blame other people and you know they keep 00:05:49.830 --> 00:05:53.499 collecting evidence that this is life it's like that i knew that, 00:05:54.074 --> 00:05:57.770 and they never level up and it's not their fault because we don't learn about 00:05:57.770 --> 00:06:01.450 this at school we learn about facts and figures that are already out of date 00:06:01.450 --> 00:06:02.764 by the time we finish the course, 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.840 but we don't learn about the mindset and that would be I think a slightly different 00:06:07.840 --> 00:06:09.828 world if it could and if we should have done it, 00:06:10.978 --> 00:06:14.566 I love that because, right, you said the paint is given. 00:06:14.566 --> 00:06:20.636 So what happened, the fact of whatever happened in the past or what is happening, that's fine. 00:06:20.636 --> 00:06:24.226 But what do they mean, right? That humans, we're meaning makers. 00:06:24.226 --> 00:06:29.856 And so we decide what it means. We decide how we want to think about something 00:06:29.856 --> 00:06:35.076 or how important or unimportant it is. And I think you see that a lot in a work 00:06:35.076 --> 00:06:38.557 environment. I will talk to somebody and they'll say, everybody thinks this. 00:06:39.404 --> 00:06:44.426 And i think to myself most probably not right you think this and that is very 00:06:44.426 --> 00:06:50.106 important and we can start to unpack that and why are you giving this why are 00:06:50.106 --> 00:06:52.268 you valuing this in a particular sort of way 00:06:52.692 --> 00:06:56.204 but we just really assume a lot about, 00:06:56.822 --> 00:07:00.076 what is happening and that we're having universal experiences and that there's 00:07:00.076 --> 00:07:02.854 one correct way to interpret a set of events, 00:07:04.326 --> 00:07:07.436 i think this is where the models are really important because when you have 00:07:07.436 --> 00:07:12.053 a framework then you can break down a complex reality into more manageable components and. 00:07:13.186 --> 00:07:16.746 It's just easier so i really like this concept from i think it's a, 00:07:17.326 --> 00:07:21.896 in buddhist philosophy that can show and satori that there are two different 00:07:21.896 --> 00:07:26.316 types of pain because like we said pain is given it's coming but you have an 00:07:26.316 --> 00:07:29.513 option because you can choose to get uncomfortable, 00:07:30.123 --> 00:07:32.666 to face challenges so you can learn you can level up, 00:07:33.334 --> 00:07:36.656 because then the other pain is coming anyway the big slap in the face and then 00:07:36.656 --> 00:07:40.356 you have no other options what you have to manage so that is coming anyway so 00:07:40.356 --> 00:07:44.636 now the question is how ready and prepared you are by the time you get there 00:07:44.874 --> 00:07:47.550 just because i close my eyes i put my head in the sand, 00:07:48.230 --> 00:07:52.036 i'm not going to avoid it it's just going to hit me harder and i think once 00:07:52.036 --> 00:07:56.566 we understand that we can reframe that reality because if you look if you listen 00:07:56.566 --> 00:08:00.368 to your brain it cannot tell the difference if you are running away from discomfort, 00:08:00.838 --> 00:08:03.032 or danger. For the brain, it's pretty much the same thing. 00:08:03.926 --> 00:08:08.268 So as soon as you experience something uncomfortable, the brain says, no, run away. 00:08:09.226 --> 00:08:14.231 But we can override it because once I make it clear to myself that when I push 00:08:14.231 --> 00:08:20.561 my boundaries, it feels uncomfortable, but it's safer because I'm becoming more, 00:08:20.561 --> 00:08:22.703 I have more skills, I'm more prepared. 00:08:23.057 --> 00:08:27.230 So it's painful, but positive, then I can override it. 00:08:27.917 --> 00:08:31.021 But if I don't have this information and I listen to my gut feeling and I'm 00:08:31.021 --> 00:08:35.504 authentic and whatever explanation we can come up with, then I'm not doing it 00:08:35.893 --> 00:08:38.290 because it's not safe. No, it's not comfortable. 00:08:38.784 --> 00:08:41.431 But it's safe.

There's a big difference. 00:08:42.061 --> 00:08:44.441 I love that because a lot of times we sit in the discomfort, 00:08:44.441 --> 00:08:49.364 right? We equate discomfort with pain. Pain is bad. Pain is to be avoided. 00:08:49.950 --> 00:08:54.838 But we don't think about that. And this is efficacious. What could I get from this? 00:08:55.471 --> 00:08:59.791 And the fact that it's unavoidable, we are going to have catastrophes in life, 00:08:59.791 --> 00:09:01.392 really difficult situations. 00:09:01.531 --> 00:09:05.581 That is unavoidable. And in fact, the more we try to avoid it, the worse it becomes. 00:09:05.581 --> 00:09:09.381 It's like, if you see you know you're noticing something in your body and you 00:09:09.381 --> 00:09:12.191 don't want to go to the doctor because you don't want to know what it is and 00:09:12.191 --> 00:09:16.936 if you would have gotten treatment six months or two years before maybe it wouldn't be, 00:09:17.711 --> 00:09:23.161 you would put have been able to treat it better or and so to prepare right so 00:09:23.161 --> 00:09:24.941 we know disaster is coming it's 00:09:24.941 --> 00:09:29.661 not if but when if we prepare for it it doesn't mean the disaster isn't. 00:09:30.741 --> 00:09:37.535 Bad, but it is manageable. And we can, a lot of it is the reframing of it. 00:09:37.535 --> 00:09:41.675 I now have tools to think about what my options are instead of just being run 00:09:41.675 --> 00:09:42.914 by my emotions at the moment. 00:09:43.955 --> 00:09:46.838 I think this is exactly the challenge that we know the theory, 00:09:47.383 --> 00:09:50.395 but you know, it's easy to preach about fasting when you're full, 00:09:50.395 --> 00:09:52.055 but when you're hungry, then it gets difficult. 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.765 I think one of the most extreme examples i had when i really had to practice 00:09:58.765 --> 00:10:04.625 was when it was six years ago when i got a phone call in the morning that my 00:10:04.625 --> 00:10:08.335 father passed away but that day i also had a workshop, 00:10:09.135 --> 00:10:13.489 and i thought okay so i know what's happening i know the theory i know the shock is coming, 00:10:14.465 --> 00:10:17.725 i'm going to do the training because the next day probably is going to be much 00:10:17.725 --> 00:10:21.716 worse i thought that's exactly the time when i have to practice what i preach, 00:10:22.573 --> 00:10:26.407 it wasn't the best day ever definitely but i grew a lot, 00:10:27.457 --> 00:10:31.689 and then that's the power of the knowledge not just the knowledge itself but the ability to use it, 00:10:32.363 --> 00:10:36.985 because a lot of people have information but no transformation and that's the 00:10:36.985 --> 00:10:42.145 issue i love that information no transformation we are swimming in information 00:10:42.145 --> 00:10:46.646 if you want to know about just about anything where you can find it but, 00:10:47.335 --> 00:10:51.645 you know we have the world's

knowledge in the palm of our hand and yet what 00:10:51.645 --> 00:10:55.625 do we do with it uh what good does it do to us so, 00:10:56.292 --> 00:11:01.830 how do you move from i know and let's talk about it in a work environments and 00:11:02.092 --> 00:11:06.995 how to have how to show up and and move through the world at work and. 00:11:08.298 --> 00:11:11.479 Have, you know, develop our reputation, our professionalism, 00:11:11.729 --> 00:11:13.174 have healthy work environments. 00:11:13.906 --> 00:11:17.115 We know a lot about leadership. We know about what we shouldn't, 00:11:17.115 --> 00:11:20.245 shouldn't be doing. And then there's the gap between what we might know and 00:11:20.245 --> 00:11:22.398 what we actually do. How do you bridge that gap? 00:11:23.363 --> 00:11:27.235 So when it comes to mindset and especially cultural intelligence, 00:11:27.235 --> 00:11:31.269 then we have a specific term for it, and that is uncommon sense. 00:11:32.262 --> 00:11:34.515 Because, you know, when you talk to someone and you feel that, 00:11:34.515 --> 00:11:38.635 wow, that person has common sense, so smart, then usually what we mean by that 00:11:38.635 --> 00:11:41.455 is, oh, they think like us, that's such a good feeling. It doesn't make them 00:11:41.455 --> 00:11:42.804 smart, it makes them familiar. 00:11:43.036 --> 00:11:44.760 But this is exactly what the brain likes. 00:11:45.277 --> 00:11:49.365 So when we talk about uncommon sense, it's the ability to see the same situation 00:11:49.365 --> 00:11:52.665 from different perspectives, so you can make better decisions, 00:11:52.665 --> 00:11:56.126 and then you can choose to respond instead of just reacting. 00:11:57.299 --> 00:12:02.633 So in a more professional way, that's cognitive and behavioral flexibility. And that's the key. 00:12:03.149 --> 00:12:06.760 That instead of reacting, I can double-check. Is that what it really means? 00:12:07.369 --> 00:12:11.875 What would be the optimal way of responding instead of just reacting based on 00:12:11.875 --> 00:12:13.534 past experience and triggers? 00:12:14.163 --> 00:12:19.325 And that's the difficult part. That tiny half a second when we use, 00:12:19.325 --> 00:12:24.955 for example, this pain and intense feeling as an anchor, as a reminder that, 00:12:24.955 --> 00:12:27.255 oh, stop now. Have a look. 00:12:28.064 --> 00:12:31.915 Don't be automatic. so we are not against this because you know biases are mental 00:12:31.915 --> 00:12:33.381 shortcuts they exist for reason, 00:12:34.205 --> 00:12:37.915 they're quick efficient but they're not always correct so that's why the general 00:12:37.915 --> 00:12:42.885 rule is that use the pain or frustration as an anchor as a reminder that's exactly 00:12:42.885 --> 00:12:45.351 when you have to stop for a second and practice. 00:12:46.615 --> 00:12:49.999 I want to talk a little bit about this idea of uncommon sense, 00:12:50.434 --> 00:12:53.609 right? You know, there's the saying, common sense is not so common. 00:12:53.609 --> 00:12:56.849 And I think it's exactly what you're talking about. When somebody is speaking 00:12:56.849 --> 00:13:00.632 my language, when somebody is, you know, we are on the same wavelength. 00:13:00.981 --> 00:13:04.644 And I think, well, gosh, they're so smart because yes, that's exactly right. 00:13:05.282 --> 00:13:11.380 And then when we are, so the uncommon sense is seeing and hearing difference, 00:13:11.670 --> 00:13:15.549 different ideas, things that don't resonate with us right away and instead of 00:13:15.549 --> 00:13:19.095 just rejecting it but pausing considering, 00:13:19.808 --> 00:13:23.919 and then making so so that we can have more informed decisions is that another 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.658 way of thinking about what it is that's the theory, 00:13:27.389 --> 00:13:29.792 but in practice that looks slightly different because, 00:13:30.739 --> 00:13:34.439 here we talk about cognitive diversity which is technically the only layer of 00:13:34.439 --> 00:13:39.794 diversity that has proven benefit in terms of performance so for example if you and me disagree, 00:13:40.507 --> 00:13:44.095 then clearly there are different perspectives and that's exactly the potential 00:13:44.333 --> 00:13:50.329 for success or disaster it depends on how we can make it work because if you think that you are right, 00:13:51.114 --> 00:13:55.509 then obviously i'm wrong obviously and i think the same way but if we ask the 00:13:55.509 --> 00:13:59.019 right questions because i know that if you think that you're right then there 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:03.025 is a reason for it so i can ask you what is it that you can see and i cannot 00:14:03.182 --> 00:14:04.476 what do you know that i don't. 00:14:05.427 --> 00:14:10.077 And if you can do the same thing now we can see the same situation from different perspectives, 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:14.651 but here the question is important not who is right or wrong because this kind 00:14:14.651 --> 00:14:16.972 of binary thinking is the root of all evil, 00:14:17.512 --> 00:14:22.451 but everything is on a sliding scale so the quality of the questions determines 00:14:22.451 --> 00:14:26.271 the quality of the answers we get so it's not a competition it's not you or 00:14:26.271 --> 00:14:31.880 me but is there an even better solution because if that's the question we ask nobody can lose. 00:14:32.984 --> 00:14:35.491 But does this happen in real life? 00:14:35.491 --> 00:14:38.111 When was the last time that you had an argument with someone and you said, 00:14:38.111 --> 00:14:40.107 oh yeah, that's a good idea. Let's do that. 00:14:40.646 --> 00:14:44.733 You have to be really open-minded or truly terrified. So usually these are the two options. 00:14:45.435 --> 00:14:51.304 So cognitive diversity is just the potential. The benefits are not automatic. 00:14:51.775 --> 00:14:53.985 They are not based on common sense and good intention. 00:14:54.600 -->

00:14:57.340 And this is where we have to talk about homophilic diversity, 00:14:57.851 --> 00:15:02.451 which is one of the strongest forces in team dynamics it sounds like a disease 00:15:02.451 --> 00:15:06.271 but it just means that that we like and trust people who are similar to us people 00:15:06.271 --> 00:15:08.261 who think like us that's what the brain likes, 00:15:09.142 --> 00:15:11.861 and we have plenty of case studies so you have a bunch of different looking 00:15:11.861 --> 00:15:16.761 people who think the same way i mean that's excellent for marketing put it on 00:15:16.761 --> 00:15:22.698 a website fantastic but when it comes to innovation or strategy it can backfire 00:15:22.994 --> 00:15:24.109 and that's the problem with that. 00:15:25.761 --> 00:15:30.917 I love that you point out, so if you and I disagree, I think I'm right by nature 00:15:30.917 --> 00:15:33.467 if this is what I think, and you think you're right. 00:15:33.467 --> 00:15:39.968 And sometimes I think we misunderstand what knowledge is, we misunderstand belief, 00:15:40.415 --> 00:15:46.330 and I should have a strong set of, a robust set of beliefs, and I would hope the same thing for you. 00:15:47.044 --> 00:15:50.417 But a lot of times when we think, oh, somebody has a robust set of beliefs, 00:15:50.417 --> 00:15:54.187 then they are dogmatic in the sense that they're brick walls. 00:15:54.187 --> 00:15:58.127 And one brick wall against another brick wall, right? But if we think differently 00:15:58.127 --> 00:16:01.267 about the nature of belief, well, of course I believe what I believe to be true 00:16:01.267 --> 00:16:03.529 or I wouldn't believe it, that is how it goes. 00:16:04.258 --> 00:16:10.307 But if I can insert curiosity or humility or proper pride, so of course I think 00:16:10.307 --> 00:16:12.362 I'm right, and yet I'm open to listening. 00:16:12.670 --> 00:16:16.487 I'm open to asking those curious questions. As you said, what information do 00:16:16.487 --> 00:16:18.864 you have? I love that. What do you see that I don't see? 00:16:19.924 --> 00:16:23.107 And of course, the spirit in which that is asked instead of arms crossed, 00:16:23.107 --> 00:16:25.867 you know, what's going on? but like really wanting to know. 00:16:26.843 --> 00:16:32.037 So how do we get people in that space to want to know instead of people just 00:16:32.037 --> 00:16:36.311 fall in line because we're great and we have great ideas and they should do what we want them to do? 00:16:37.834 --> 00:16:40.860 The answer to this question is not going to be pretty, because I think there 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:45.920 is a real pandemic, and that is low self-esteem, the lack of self-inclusion. 00:16:45.920 --> 00:16:47.730 And I think that is the biggest obstacle. 00:16:48.142 --> 00:16:52.170 Because if you cannot trust yourself, if you don't like yourself, 00:16:52.170 --> 00:16:56.660 if your self-esteem is low, then admitting that something is wrong, 00:16:56.660 -->

00:17:02.576 that you were wrong, or somebody is right, makes the world much more uncertain, and we cannot have that. 00:17:03.377 --> 00:17:08.160 So step one is to build the foundation which is you to give back the agency 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.690 to people because that confidence that certainty should be coming from inside 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.006 because if you outsource it, 00:17:14.722 --> 00:17:19.550 that's really fragile that's really stressful because if my self-esteem depends 00:17:19.550 --> 00:17:23.319 on your approval or on my results or something else. 00:17:24.749 --> 00:17:29.240 That's a problem then i cannot be authentic i cannot admit that i'm wrong then 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.090 i'm going to outsource all my power to someone else that's when people can be 00:17:33.090 --> 00:17:34.866 manipulated taken advantage of, 00:17:35.349 --> 00:17:39.720 and that's not ideal so we have to build that foundation but how do you do that 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:44.040 because if you don't know how something works how do you optimize it and most 00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:46.759 people have no idea about their own mindset, 00:17:47.557 --> 00:17:50.900 they use it like my granny used to use her smartphone you know they can use 00:17:50.900 --> 00:17:53.730 a few apps believe it all but they don't know it's a supercomputer, 00:17:53.730 --> 00:17:56.496 they don't know how to upgrade it, they don't know how to fix it. 00:17:57.746 --> 00:18:01.100 And this is exactly what we are working on. So how can we make this process 00:18:01.100 --> 00:18:06.610 as uncomplicated and practical as possible, so people can actually use it? Hmm. 00:18:08.317 --> 00:18:12.564 Low self-esteem, I think that's really interesting to think about. 00:18:12.564 --> 00:18:14.995 I've been thinking about retaliation at work. 00:18:15.866 --> 00:18:19.164 Why do people not have difficult conversations with a colleague, 00:18:19.164 --> 00:18:22.939 with someone that reports to them or their boss? 00:18:23.566 --> 00:18:27.380 And one thing I've been coming across lately is fear of retaliation. 00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:29.899 If I say this, then they're going to retaliate. 00:18:30.288 --> 00:18:33.644 And that's all different kinds of fears that people experience about why they're 00:18:33.644 --> 00:18:34.954 not going to have a difficult conversation. 00:18:34.954 --> 00:18:39.164 But I've been thinking about, oh gosh, what to do about this? 00:18:39.164 --> 00:18:42.724 If the other person, I've been thinking in terms of emotional intelligence. 00:18:42.724 --> 00:18:48.614 But I wonder if another way, maybe an older way, to think about emotional intelligence, 00:18:48.614 --> 00:18:51.034 and of course it's not all about self-esteem. 00:18:51.034 --> 00:18:55.984 But if somebody is outsourcing how they're going to feel about themselves and 00:18:55.984 --> 00:18:57.654 they're looking just for outward 00:18:57.654 --> 00:19:01.389 markers, that need any kind of disapproval or any kind of pushback, 00:19:02.045 --> 00:19:08.906 they're going to need to shore up their own agency by possibly putting you back in your place. 00:19:10.095 --> 00:19:15.976 And the fear of retaliation. I think a lot of the fear of retaliation is catastrophizing 00:19:16.276 --> 00:19:18.494 and may not be there, but it is also there. 00:19:19.383 --> 00:19:24.706 Can you tell me about how you see talking about emotional intelligence and low 00:19:24.706 --> 00:19:29.692 self-esteem where they dovetail? Or are you getting at the same thing or different aspects? 00:19:30.632 --> 00:19:33.496 I think we have to talk about the power of the environment here and I've got 00:19:33.796 --> 00:19:38.906 one example so I was doing a workshop in the US and that was for a company they 00:19:38.906 --> 00:19:41.874 bought another one they merged but then the system was still weird, 00:19:42.606 --> 00:19:48.076 so we were standing in a circle and there was one sales guy who said in front 00:19:48.076 --> 00:19:53.276 of everyone own colleagues same company but not he said don't say anything about 00:19:53.276 --> 00:19:57.112 your leads because I'm going to take them and I don't want to do that, 00:19:57.877 --> 00:20:01.176 I asked him why did you do that and he said because the system is set up in 00:20:01.176 --> 00:20:02.945 a way that they get commissioned, 00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:08.001 so you know even though they preach about collaboration the system is set up for competition, 00:20:08.826 --> 00:20:12.986 so you know you can try to be a good person but if the system is not right it 00:20:12.986 --> 00:20:15.966 makes it very difficult because if you had to choose between feeding your kids, 00:20:16.587 --> 00:20:20.941 or respecting your colleagues then probably you choose your kids does it make you a bad person. 00:20:22.056 --> 00:20:25.926 Sometimes we do bad things for the right reason carol dweck was the one who 00:20:25.926 --> 00:20:30.516 coined the growth mindset and fixed mindset, that you can have off the chart 00:20:30.516 --> 00:20:34.036 growth mindset, thinking positive, emotional intelligence, whatever you want. 00:20:34.698 --> 00:20:38.046 But if your environment is not psychologically safe, it's not nurturing, 00:20:38.046 --> 00:20:43.324 it has zero benefits, meaning that you are going to drown in a toxic environment. It's that important. 00:20:43.661 --> 00:20:49.341 So I agree that it is an important skill, but it's not necessarily the solution on its own. 00:20:50.798 --> 00:20:57.514 And yet it seems to be the case that we need people to have that internal locus of control, have that, 00:20:58.516 --> 00:21:02.469 that ability, that emotional intelligence in order to have right systems, right? 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.939 And not just a system in the name, but actually as it works. 00:21:07.537 --> 00:21:12.068 But I think that you're right. I mean, I don't see realistically, 00:21:12.068 -->

00:21:16.253 given human nature, having a completely flat structure and power structure. 00:21:16.921 --> 00:21:19.338 I don't think that's going to work. And so if you're not going to have a flat 00:21:19.338 --> 00:21:23.689 power structure and you're going to be promoting people, then you're already going to have this. 00:21:24.695 --> 00:21:31.808 If I want to be promoted, then there's only so many, right, scarcity resources of promotion, right? 00:21:32.168 --> 00:21:37.018 Just the basic scaffolding of an organization, let alone all the other sorts 00:21:37.018 --> 00:21:40.039 of politics and the way the systems are set up. 00:21:40.486 --> 00:21:45.436 And so there is going to be this me versus you for the one spot. 00:21:46.223 --> 00:21:52.374 How do you set up a system then that addresses, 00:21:53.134 --> 00:21:58.548 is competition that is going to i mean maybe i'm just not thinking about this 00:21:58.548 --> 00:22:03.998 enough but that is woven into pretty much you know if you think about a spine 00:22:03.998 --> 00:22:06.682 right you're gonna have these hierarchies, 00:22:07.378 --> 00:22:11.604 and if i want to go up then and there's one spot and then there's me versus you. 00:22:12.848 --> 00:22:17.698 I think equality is a really good thing it's a fantastic idea but you know somebody 00:22:17.698 --> 00:22:20.106 is always more equal that's the saying so. 00:22:21.747 --> 00:22:24.718 This is what the google research showed as well because they had this idea that 00:22:24.718 --> 00:22:28.608 you know what is the secret of high performing teams and first idea was we don't 00:22:28.608 --> 00:22:32.078 need leaders it turned out that it was a really bad idea yes you need leaders 00:22:32.078 --> 00:22:34.884 you need good leaders so hierarchy is needed, 00:22:35.510 --> 00:22:39.618 how transparent that is and how the information flows that's a very different 00:22:39.618 --> 00:22:43.898 story but if you have limited resources then there is a competition so now we 00:22:43.898 --> 00:22:48.061 work with some companies where that was the exact case and. 00:22:49.146 --> 00:22:53.499 If you can win by yourself, it can turn into a really toxic environment. 00:22:53.987 --> 00:22:58.637 But if they change the bonus system a little bit, so that means that you get 00:22:58.637 --> 00:23:05.086 individual bonus, but your team has to perform as well, then it can change. 00:23:05.717 --> 00:23:09.165 So you need this kind of scaffolding around motivation as well. 00:23:09.937 --> 00:23:14.912 Because if you can get away with winning by yourself, most people are going to do that. 00:23:15.653 --> 00:23:22.337 But if I also need to help my team then it can change that's one option so let's 00:23:22.337 --> 00:23:26.637 talk about motivation again we've got a lot of us know what we ought to be doing 00:23:26.637 --> 00:23:27.886 what we ought not to be doing, 00:23:28.857 --> 00:23:34.697 but sometimes having conversations well it can be

vulnerable if it's a difficult 00:23:34.697 --> 00:23:40.357 conversation having the will to do something different and execute a new way 00:23:40.357 --> 00:23:43.225 of thinking so that we can have these healthy environments, 00:23:44.188 --> 00:23:48.576 so I put this new system in place we've got, 00:23:49.185 --> 00:23:53.347 it's going to require something of all of us to speak up to take responsibility 00:23:53.347 --> 00:23:57.977 to all the things that we really need to have a healthy organization with psychological 00:23:57.977 --> 00:24:01.126 safety how do I then motivate people to, 00:24:01.713 --> 00:24:02.937 buy in especially people who've 00:24:02.937 --> 00:24:06.317 been there for a while who maybe have gone through a lot of bad changes, 00:24:07.437 --> 00:24:13.667 ineffectual changes and they feel despair or they just have all these feelings. 00:24:13.667 --> 00:24:15.767 They think, oh, why should I try this again? 00:24:16.948 --> 00:24:20.581 Have you read Daniel Pink's Drive? I have not. 00:24:21.320 --> 00:24:25.533 So he had a really interesting take on the evolution of motivation. 00:24:25.533 --> 00:24:27.571 It says 1.0 is very primal. 00:24:27.740 --> 00:24:29.777 You know, just make babies and survive. 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:32.059 That's it. I mean, it's important. 00:24:32.662 --> 00:24:37.333 But then the second level is extrinsic motivators. This is the pain and pleasure, 00:24:37.333 --> 00:24:38.293 the carrot and the stick. 00:24:39.413 --> 00:24:41.823 But there's a problem with that because we get used to everything. 00:24:41.823 --> 00:24:44.910 So you have to punish and reward people more and more to get the same result. 00:24:45.282 --> 00:24:49.903 But also what the research shows is that when it comes to creative thinking 00:24:49.903 --> 00:24:54.494 or strategy or kind of white-collar jobs it actually backfires, 00:24:55.011 --> 00:25:00.843 not that it doesn't work it backfires so the highest level is is the intrinsic 00:25:00.843 --> 00:25:03.963 motivators those are the ones that are coming from inside you know when you 00:25:03.963 --> 00:25:06.348 do something for the sake of the process not the outcome, 00:25:07.154 --> 00:25:10.993 and that's the highest level but for that you need to understand people you 00:25:10.993 --> 00:25:13.943 have to get to know them because if you try to motivate people based on what 00:25:13.943 --> 00:25:16.492 you want and what you need, it's going to be difficult. 00:25:16.865 --> 00:25:21.433 At the end of the day, we do everything for two reasons, to avoid pain and to 00:25:21.433 --> 00:25:22.732 move towards pleasure. That's it. 00:25:23.302 --> 00:25:28.694 Which sounds really simplistic and objective. In reality, it is very subjective, 00:25:29.246 --> 00:25:32.573 because maybe you love doing something that I cannot stand and then you expect 00:25:32.573 --> 00:25:34.610 me to get excited. Well, it's not going to happen. 00:25:34.998 --> 00:25:37.971 And that's exactly why common sense can backfire. 00:25:39.111 --> 00:25:43.468 So once we understand that, then we can look into how people think. 00:25:43.468 --> 00:25:47.378 Because it's nice to say that I'm motivated by making money. 00:25:47.938 --> 00:25:52.198 Yes, but you're much more motivated by not losing money. So we are three or 00:25:52.198 --> 00:25:55.928 four times more motivated to avoid pain than we are to move towards pleasure. 00:25:56.804 --> 00:26:02.558 To make it even more kind of depressing, that around 70 or 80% of our actions 00:26:02.558 --> 00:26:03.759 are about avoiding pain. 00:26:04.502 --> 00:26:07.718 And that kind of answers your previous question as well. Why are we not confronting 00:26:07.718 --> 00:26:13.039 people? because I have to calculate the chances of failure or pain. 00:26:13.589 --> 00:26:16.753 Because what if they just pull a prank? What if they withhold information? 00:26:16.997 --> 00:26:19.127 What if they say something bad that can backfire? 00:26:19.791 --> 00:26:22.815 Can you control that? No. So is it worth it? 00:26:23.560 --> 00:26:28.198 I do the math and then I decide yes or no. Yeah. But it's subjective. 00:26:28.198 --> 00:26:30.352 It's based on what I experienced before. 00:26:30.973 --> 00:26:36.720 How I interpret the situation. Do I overreact? Do I project the pain based on the past experience? 00:26:37.318 --> 00:26:42.128 Do i need more certainty than other people that's the key so we have to tap 00:26:42.128 --> 00:26:43.684 into that intrinsic motivator 00:26:44.113 --> 00:26:47.528 understand it because at the end of the day we cannot motivate anyone people 00:26:47.528 --> 00:26:52.138 can motivate themselves but if i know what motivates you then i can create that 00:26:52.138 --> 00:26:56.323 motivating environment around you so it's all about do you want. 00:26:57.532 --> 00:27:01.527 Slightly inappropriate example, but it's a real case study. Sure. 00:27:02.345 --> 00:27:06.059 This is one of my useful coaching. So it works and it makes a lot of sense. 00:27:06.605 --> 00:27:08.288 So this is a real case study. 00:27:09.176 --> 00:27:13.866 So there was a mom who had a 16-year-old son and they were arguing constantly 00:27:13.866 --> 00:27:17.146 and the mom wanted him to study and then they got to the point where they had 00:27:17.146 --> 00:27:20.866 to ask for professional help and they went to see a psychologist called Dr. 00:27:20.866 --> 00:27:22.353 John DeMartini in the US. 00:27:23.136 --> 00:27:26.852 So he sat down with the boy and he asked him, so what do you like doing? 00:27:27.333 --> 00:27:30.886 Oof, I like picking up chicks. And of course, it's about arranging love rather 00:27:30.886 --> 00:27:33.638 than picking up the chickens. So, okay, that's great. 00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:38.066 So what do you think that women like then? Well, I think they like money and 00:27:38.066 --> 00:27:40.737 success. Very good. So how can you have that? 00:27:41.283

--> 00:27:43.268 I need a good job. How can you have that? 00:27:43.837 --> 00:27:47.926 I need good grades. How can you have that? I need to study. Ooh, 00:27:47.926 --> 00:27:49.009 and that's when it clicked. 00:27:49.758 --> 00:27:54.582 Because he managed to connect his message to the boy's highest values and needs. 00:27:54.832 --> 00:27:59.306 That's when you land. that's when you motivate someone so according to him there 00:27:59.306 --> 00:28:02.712 are three different ways of communicating with people one is the careless one, 00:28:03.194 --> 00:28:06.016 it's not exactly that you don't care but you don't understand the other person 00:28:06.016 --> 00:28:08.024 like the mom her intention was best, 00:28:08.755 --> 00:28:13.666 impact negative because she didn't understand the boy then there's the careful 00:28:13.666 --> 00:28:17.046 one you know when you start a new job a new relationship and then honey what 00:28:17.046 --> 00:28:20.236 do you want no no what do you want then it's like walking on eggshells. 00:28:20.828 --> 00:28:25.292 These are not sustainable. But then there's the third one, caring, 00:28:25.957 --> 00:28:28.496 which means that you know exactly who you are, what you stand for, 00:28:28.496 --> 00:28:29.997 but you also understand the other person. 00:28:30.247 --> 00:28:34.896 So you can connect your message to their highest values. And that's when you can influence people. 00:28:35.372 --> 00:28:39.426 That's the superpower, understanding what they want, what they want to avoid 00:28:39.426 --> 00:28:40.893 and what the trust is based on. 00:28:42.813 --> 00:28:46.809 I feel like you've done a really good job of explaining the particularity of 00:28:46.809 --> 00:28:48.399 the human experience, right? 00:28:48.399 --> 00:28:53.299 And so you can have a formula, but then the formula is populated by who is this 00:28:53.299 --> 00:28:58.029 particular person, right? And so the executing it is always about this person 00:28:58.029 --> 00:29:00.000 and that person in this particular structure. 00:29:00.587 --> 00:29:05.712 And so the mom was communicating, you need to do this for your own good. 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:10.972 But communication so much we think is one way. I said it. I've said the truth. 00:29:11.082 --> 00:29:13.619 Now, you should receive it. Why are you being obstinate? 00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:17.809 But the other person hasn't received it because it's just bouncing off of them. 00:29:17.809 --> 00:29:19.697 It's not using their language, right? 00:29:20.155 --> 00:29:23.949 And if I want to communicate, and I have to understand who I'm communicating 00:29:23.949 --> 00:29:27.946 with, and one of the best ways that you've just described very well is, 00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:30.616 what does this person care about, right? 00:29:31.383 --> 00:29:35.034 And sometimes we can ask ourselves, well, what do I care about? 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:36.886 What do I really care about? 00:29:37.437 --> 00:29:40.177

And especially when we're not sure, like, why is my behavior, 00:29:40.305 --> 00:29:43.299 why am I doing things that I wish I wasn't doing, right? Maybe when I'm stuck 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:48.189 in bad habits or ruts, I'm really thinking about, well, what am I prizing and why am I prizing? 00:29:48.792 --> 00:29:53.779 I'm having, I got my, my sun is coming into my room. That's right. 00:29:53.779 --> 00:29:56.970 It's eight in the morning here, but the sun is doing funny things. 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.709 But I think that's really strong. So how do you get people to pause? 00:30:02.709 --> 00:30:05.269 In business, what I hear is, I don't have time for that, Mary. 00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:09.259 I've got all of these people that I'm managing, and I'm not their mother. 00:30:09.259 --> 00:30:11.608 I don't need to coddle them. 00:30:12.698 --> 00:30:16.126 And I hear that, and I think, well, you know, we're not about coddling, 00:30:16.126 --> 00:30:17.716 but we are about communicating. 00:30:17.716 --> 00:30:22.176 And if you do want to have psychological safety, if you do want to have the 00:30:22.176 --> 00:30:24.266 best kind of work environment, which is good for the humans, 00:30:24.266 --> 00:30:26.976 but also good for whatever it is that you're trying to do. You're going to be 00:30:26.976 --> 00:30:29.346 better at it. You're going to have innovation. You're going to have longevity. 00:30:29.770 --> 00:30:32.156 You're going to have higher engagement. There's all these goods, 00:30:32.156 --> 00:30:35.059 right? The ROI on a healthy team is just so high. 00:30:35.703 --> 00:30:43.846 Then how how do we help man leaders managers in particular middle management 00:30:43.846 --> 00:30:47.372 because they are the ones that are in charge of the the bulk of people, 00:30:48.324 --> 00:30:52.766 how what kind of tools can they employ that are reasonable tools given their 00:30:52.766 --> 00:30:59.978 own workload to really spend time understanding the people that are reporting to them so that they can, 00:31:00.855 --> 00:31:04.216 set the system set the conditions for their people to succeed, 00:31:04.216 --> 00:31:05.435 therefore the team to succeed. 00:31:06.413 --> 00:31:11.366 I think step one is to find the leverage. What I mean by that is that it's nice 00:31:11.366 --> 00:31:14.436 to talk about, you know, working environment and all those things, 00:31:14.436 --> 00:31:17.716 but at the end of the day, people are asking the question, what's in it for me? That's it. 00:31:18.186 --> 00:31:20.978 If that's the leader, that's the employee, why would I do that? 00:31:21.628 --> 00:31:24.716 And again, we are going back to the calculation. Is it worth it? 00:31:24.716 --> 00:31:29.558 Yes or no? So we have to go there first. So it's not about cuddling anyone. 00:31:30.183 --> 00:31:33.006 Do it because you get better results. If you're nicer to people, 00:31:33.006 --> 00:31:34.763 you make more money and maybe it's that simple, 00:31:35.486 --> 00:31:38.776 so you know when we talked about psychological safety in the past then people 00:31:38.776 --> 00:31:44.307 just thought oh yeah that's something nice you know be nice to people polite no no no said listen, 00:31:44.754 --> 00:31:47.636 what is the number one trait of high performing teams and then they come up 00:31:47.636 --> 00:31:50.888 with a lot of ideas no psychological safety okay, 00:31:51.529 --> 00:31:54.907 number one trait so where is your team on this dimension, 00:31:55.644 --> 00:32:00.276 i think they're good okay so no data where was your team before you invested in the program? 00:32:00.286 --> 00:32:02.529 And where were they after that? No idea. 00:32:03.616 --> 00:32:07.262 Now, that's a problem. Would it make sense to know that? Because it directly affects you. 00:32:07.558 --> 00:32:11.825 Your success, your future, your money. Okay, now we have the leverage. 00:32:12.575 --> 00:32:17.643 So that is needed. So to me, this topic is like speaking different languages. 00:32:18.183 --> 00:32:21.051 So you can choose the one that the other person understands the best. 00:32:21.918 --> 00:32:25.308 Like the mom. She was trying hard, but it's not about communicating more. 00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:26.539 It's communicating better. 00:32:27.317 --> 00:32:30.502 It's not the same thing. But we are locked into these behavioral patterns. 00:32:30.502 --> 00:32:34.236 And you know when the door doesn't open and then, well, I just have to just, Try it harder. 00:32:34.834 --> 00:32:37.502 You don't understand me, then I'm going to shout because that's going to help. 00:32:37.502 --> 00:32:38.979 No, let's do it differently. 00:32:39.693 --> 00:32:43.164 And maybe you get better results. So that is step one, find that leverage. 00:32:44.115 --> 00:32:48.514 But at the same time, you cannot optimize something unless you know how it works. 00:32:49.193 --> 00:32:52.502 So we have a signature program called the Game Changers. 00:32:53.414 --> 00:32:56.752 If you are a busy leader, we have five 60-minute sessions. 00:32:57.442 --> 00:33:00.862 By the end of the fourth session, you have a one-page blueprint, 00:33:00.862 --> 00:33:05.502 an actual blueprint of how you make sense of the world based on your personality 00:33:05.502 --> 00:33:09.592 type, your culture background, the biases that can distort your reality, and the derailers, 00:33:10.091 --> 00:33:13.225 that can get in the way of success. Quantified. 00:33:13.994 --> 00:33:18.857 We discuss it. Now you can go deeper. And the blueprint is not going to tell you who you are. 00:33:19.514 --> 00:33:23.512 Just like if you look at the blueprint of a house, you don't see the color of 00:33:23.512 --> 00:33:26.938 the wall. You don't see the decoration, the furniture, but you understand the structure. 00:33:27.667 --> 00:33:30.452 And then you can go deeper. How do you reflect on something you're not aware 00:33:30.452 --> 00:33:33.642 of? And that's my

problem with the coaching, that you reflect, but how? 00:33:34.782 --> 00:33:39.342 It's like trying to decrease the pollution by increasing the traffic. How do you do that? 00:33:39.962 --> 00:33:45.312 That makes no sense. So it's much easier to get out of a maze with a map you 00:33:45.312 --> 00:33:49.358 can still reflect as much as you want and you should but with a map it's much easier. 00:33:50.502 --> 00:33:54.972 So that would be step one because a lot of leaders overcompensate so we have 00:33:54.972 --> 00:33:56.953 to go back to that self-inclusion piece, 00:33:57.750 --> 00:34:02.248 because if you are not okay with yourself then you are going to overcompensate 00:34:02.626 --> 00:34:06.109 you have to bully people to feel important or you have to hide to feel safe, 00:34:06.887 --> 00:34:12.239 now that's a problem so back to the foundation self-inclusion based on self-awareness, 00:34:13.052 --> 00:34:18.272 but at the same time we can also overdo it and we know exactly that if we overdo 00:34:18.272 --> 00:34:20.940 our strength they can become our weakness so, 00:34:21.851 --> 00:34:25.533 My second book, and this is the title, and I also wrote an article about this. 00:34:25.533 --> 00:34:27.383 It's a difficult word, so I don't know if I can pronounce it, 00:34:27.383 --> 00:34:28.748 but I had this enlightenment. 00:34:30.033 --> 00:34:34.763 Authentoxicity, which means that a lot of people talk about authenticity, 00:34:34.763 --> 00:34:39.053 that this is me. But they don't realize that if they overdo it, 00:34:39.053 --> 00:34:43.288 it can turn into a glorified form of fixed mindset. 00:34:44.073 --> 00:34:47.263 Is this who I am? Accept me. Do you accept other people? No. 00:34:47.263 --> 00:34:50.375 Oh, it's just one-way street. Interesting. Now, that's a problem. 00:34:51.925 --> 00:34:55.923 So you can be authentic yes understand yourself but don't turn it into a fixed 00:34:55.923 --> 00:35:00.063 mindset yeah you're not finished there's always another level not because i'm 00:35:00.063 --> 00:35:03.316 not good enough it's because i can be even better that's a different story, 00:35:04.441 --> 00:35:09.053 absolutely i mean we are a collection of our experiences and so we insofar as 00:35:09.053 --> 00:35:11.344 that we have another day or we're living today we are, 00:35:12.493 --> 00:35:18.883 the possibility of changing and growing and and and that we are in relation 00:35:18.883 --> 00:35:26.484 with one another and so who i am and who you are our dynamic right is going to, 00:35:27.773 --> 00:35:33.293 so our dynamic if i am just again fixed right instead of like this idea of like 00:35:33.293 --> 00:35:36.613 the self right some people think about the self as like the pit and the peach 00:35:36.613 --> 00:35:40.378 right that i'm fixed rather than an onion right the existentialist idea that. 00:35:41.904 --> 00:35:45.631 I am multifaceted and I am becoming, I'm in the process of becoming. 00:35:46.845 --> 00:35:50.483 And so I think authenticity is a pretty interesting idea because we talk a lot 00:35:50.483 --> 00:35:53.193 about that, you know, bring your whole self to work and what does this mean? 00:35:53.193 --> 00:35:58.938 And I understand the idea behind it, but I do think, and it is, 00:35:59.106 --> 00:36:04.123 authenticity is fantastic, but I think self-reflection, right? 00:36:04.123 --> 00:36:06.214 Relationship, community. 00:36:06.707 --> 00:36:11.010 What do those things mean? What does it mean to be becoming instead of being, 00:36:11.527 --> 00:36:17.973 right? A being that is becoming and to reflect on that and what our values are, 00:36:17.973 --> 00:36:20.171 what it is that we want in relation. 00:36:21.566 --> 00:36:24.636 And then we're at work, right? And we have all of these things happening, 00:36:24.636 --> 00:36:25.886 and maybe we slept well or we 00:36:25.886 --> 00:36:30.663 didn't, and we have financial and family obligations and health concerns. 00:36:31.387 --> 00:36:35.062 And then we're brought into this mix with so many different sorts of people. 00:36:35.916 --> 00:36:39.836 And then we're all writing these narratives, different sorts of narratives, 00:36:39.836 --> 00:36:44.176 and we think we're communicating and we're not. And so we have these conflicts that pop up. 00:36:45.001 --> 00:36:49.465 What do you recommend people do when they find themselves in an unmanaged conflict at work? 00:36:51.557 --> 00:36:55.116 I think we can talk about that and we should definitely. It's just, 00:36:55.116 --> 00:36:57.926 you know, you're absolutely right that we don't exist in isolation. 00:36:57.926 --> 00:37:00.576 And I think this is what people forget. So, you know, bringing your whole self 00:37:00.576 --> 00:37:02.145 to work, yeah, great, but don't. 00:37:06.778 --> 00:37:08.296 No, at work, be professional. 00:37:11.136 --> 00:37:14.316 Because what if my authentic self is just in a boxer short and then, 00:37:14.316 --> 00:37:15.706 you know, half a foot well. 00:37:16.170 --> 00:37:18.556 If you don't like it, then you're racist or you're discriminating. 00:37:18.556 --> 00:37:22.986 No, it's a professional environment and we have to be able to work with other people. 00:37:22.986 --> 00:37:26.956 So we have to find that balance. And I think if we overdo it, 00:37:26.956 --> 00:37:30.996 then that's when it turns into a weakness. And I think sometimes, 00:37:30.996 --> 00:37:34.321 especially the last few years in the D&I field, people took advantage of that. 00:37:35.162 --> 00:37:40.046 And in the spirit of equality, some people had even more rights to say, 00:37:40.046 --> 00:37:41.229 how's that equality now? 00:37:41.547 --> 00:37:43.532 It's, you know, it turns into, it's my turn. 00:37:44.316 --> 00:37:47.236 So how's that good? And that's a problem with that, I think. 00:37:47.236 --> 00:37:49.512 So, authenticity is a bit overstated. 00:37:50.452 --> 00:37:54.926 But when it comes to values, how

do you reflect on values? And if you look at, 00:37:54.926 --> 00:37:59.656 for example, research, 95% of our actions are driven by values and beliefs you're not even aware of. 00:38:00.276 --> 00:38:03.056 So, you know, we are aware of our stories, the narratives, and then we make 00:38:03.056 --> 00:38:05.626 choices to support that narrative. So now it feels really good, 00:38:05.626 --> 00:38:08.430 but we have no idea about the underlying values and drivers. 00:38:08.923 --> 00:38:12.698 That is something that, you know, we have to assess and that's why we have the assessment for that. 00:38:14.025 --> 00:38:18.770 And if you really want to, I know that you're up for these disturbing articles, 00:38:18.770 --> 00:38:22.208 so I can send one to you, that Forbes article that I've written. 00:38:22.614 --> 00:38:26.989 And the title is, yeah, not what you post about, but what you click on. 00:38:27.605 --> 00:38:31.310 It's a very, very nasty article because, you know, you can post about everything 00:38:31.310 --> 00:38:35.370 that I want to inspire people. But you know what? Can I check your browser history? 00:38:38.165 --> 00:38:42.907 That's where your values are. You know, whenever you find time to do something, 00:38:43.441 --> 00:38:46.490 even if you don't have time, that's your value. It's driven by something that 00:38:46.910 --> 00:38:50.076 maybe you don't want to admit, but that's the real you. 00:38:50.694 --> 00:38:54.140 But when we go outside in the real world, then, you know, there are expectations, 00:38:54.140 --> 00:38:56.510 there are norms, and then we have to pretend to be normal. 00:38:56.998 --> 00:39:00.050 You don't pretend to be authentic. No, no, no, because authentic is your browser 00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:02.559 history, and you might not want to share it. 00:39:03.203 --> 00:39:07.046 So, you know, that's why we have to find that balance. It's pick and choose. 00:39:07.890 --> 00:39:12.220 It's like I want the freedom of speech but if you tell me something I don't 00:39:12.220 --> 00:39:16.472 like I'm going to cancel you I'm going to get offended well it should be a two way street. 00:39:17.446 --> 00:39:22.500 Maybe the level of freedom you have should be equal to the level of responsibility 00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:27.685 you are willing to take or the level of flexibility or inclusion you are willing to extend maybe, 00:39:28.422 --> 00:39:33.942 and that goes back to your question as well because if these things are not sorted inside of us, 00:39:34.766 --> 00:39:39.960 then we have to protect ourselves and we have a derailer assessment that can 00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:45.249 identify which kind of overprotective behaviors you use to protect yourself, 00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:49.550 that's when we overcompensate and that's you know one of them is that i become 00:39:49.550 --> 00:39:52.586 a pleaser then oh i'm nice to you so hopefully you're going to be nice to me 00:39:52.917 --> 00:39:57.810 or everything is

perfect then obviously you cannot attack me or i'm just skeptical 00:39:57.810 --> 00:39:59.720 so i look cooperative but i'm not, 00:40:00.376 --> 00:40:04.750 or maybe my self-esteem depends on the result not necessarily the amount of 00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:05.949 effort i put into something, 00:40:06.854 --> 00:40:10.960 and these are the kind of derailers especially under pressure determine how 00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:16.607 you deal with conflicts at work but if you are not aware of them you don't notice them, 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.951 indeed you might think that those are your strengths oh i'm just high standards that's not what it is. 00:40:23.371 --> 00:40:28.039 Perfectionism is not about high standards all of these derailers are driven by fear, 00:40:29.049 --> 00:40:33.210 i'm not going to admit it i'm not a pleaser i'm just nice to people i'm i care 00:40:33.210 --> 00:40:37.270 about them but deep inside i feel that resentment that it's not two-sided that 00:40:37.270 --> 00:40:41.019 I give you more than you give me and it's building up, it's building up, 00:40:41.715 --> 00:40:45.215 and one day I'm going to unleash something better. 00:40:46.555 --> 00:40:49.802 So it goes back to that self-awareness. First of all, understanding what triggers 00:40:49.802 --> 00:40:53.262 us, how we interpret a situation so we can make better decisions. 00:40:53.262 --> 00:40:57.479 And then the step three is when you have the right techniques to have a conversation, 00:40:58.065 --> 00:41:01.317 because it can be like a scaffolding for your conversation. You can get ready for it. 00:41:01.706 --> 00:41:06.687 True, it can still go wrong, but you have a much better chance as opposed to 00:41:06.953 --> 00:41:08.775 overcompensating. Yeah. 00:41:09.442 --> 00:41:13.383 Yeah. I would say that in general, I mean, of course, there are exceptions that But 00:41:13.789 --> 00:41:18.352 there is no bad, difficult conversation in the sense that if you do it right, 00:41:18.352 --> 00:41:20.679 if you take the time to prepare and 00:41:21.061 --> 00:41:24.742 really think through specifically what it is that you're having an issue with 00:41:24.742 --> 00:41:29.082 and try to consider why you're having an issue and what is your goal for the conversation. 00:41:29.082 --> 00:41:33.256 And if your goal is a good goal, right, not just an inappropriate, 00:41:33.703 --> 00:41:37.432 especially we're talking about work, then independent of how the other person 00:41:37.432 --> 00:41:39.874 shows up and responds and the outcome, 00:41:40.640 --> 00:41:43.822 all of this work that you have done, the insight that you have gained, 00:41:43.822 --> 00:41:49.174 and the power that you have taken back instead of been sitting by and waiting 00:41:49.319 --> 00:41:51.332 for the other person to change, 00:41:51.892 --> 00:41:55.925 notice, apologize, whatever it might be that we want them to do. 00:41:56.640 --> 00:42:01.927 But if we don't act for our own good, and

hopefully the good of others in the organization. 00:42:02.939 --> 00:42:07.655 Then we're going to get much of the same. But if we do act in the right way 00:42:07.655 --> 00:42:12.695 at the right time, having prepared, then we're going to win. 00:42:12.695 --> 00:42:17.555 And even if we don't get, quote unquote, what we want or something negative 00:42:17.555 --> 00:42:19.731 happens in that relationship, 00:42:20.515 --> 00:42:27.025 we've taken those sorts of steps in order to restore psychological safety or, 00:42:27.894 --> 00:42:32.285 to begin that process of bringing about other kinds of goods. 00:42:32.285 --> 00:42:34.978 Goods such that we can have a healthy work environment. 00:42:36.065 --> 00:42:38.845 That makes sense if the other person wants to make it work as well. 00:42:38.845 --> 00:42:41.425 But often we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. 00:42:41.425 --> 00:42:44.035 The politics, the special interest, 00:42:44.035 --> 00:42:48.286 the frustration, maybe personal things going through. It depends. 00:42:48.745 --> 00:42:52.007 So I think that that is kind of difficult. So yes, we can have a better chance. 00:42:53.505 --> 00:42:55.639 But the other side might not be ready for it. 00:42:55.802 --> 00:43:00.005 Not open. Just like in coaching you know there are clients who want the solution 00:43:00.005 --> 00:43:04.115 and then there are clients who want attention we don't work with them because 00:43:04.115 --> 00:43:07.702 if the problem is part of the identity they don't know who they are without that, 00:43:09.125 --> 00:43:13.465 right so nothing is going to change right and so i suppose what i mean really 00:43:13.465 --> 00:43:18.625 is the only thing that we can ever control is ourself right and i think with 00:43:18.625 --> 00:43:21.814 conflict management it really is about personal empowerment, 00:43:22.458 --> 00:43:26.995 and once we see that that's the winning right independent of the outcome, 00:43:26.995 --> 00:43:32.878 independent of what happened with the relationship or if I got the thing I think that I wanted. 00:43:33.967 --> 00:43:40.395 The ability to speak up for yourself in the right way at the right time and 00:43:40.395 --> 00:43:48.067 to be a professional and to show up for ourself, not be reactionary, is the win. 00:43:48.607 --> 00:43:53.255 And I think that a lot of times we catastrophize and we think only about what 00:43:53.255 --> 00:43:57.947 might the other person's reaction be as if that is the only thing to consider 00:43:58.237 --> 00:44:00.505 about if I have a difficult conversation. 00:44:00.505 --> 00:44:03.195 Of course, that should be considered. We do need to consider politics. 00:44:03.195 --> 00:44:08.005 And information from the past and do that as a part of the calculus. 00:44:08.005 --> 00:44:11.731 But a lot of times what we don't think about is who am I making myself? 00:44:12.497 --> 00:44:17.605 When I do this, what signal am I saying to myself? The confidence within myself. 00:44:17.605 --> 00:44:23.229 And we get confidence by doing it, not by somebody else acting and then we get it. 00:44:23.859 --> 00:44:28.595 I fully agree with you. And maybe I've got a slightly, seemingly unrelated topic, 00:44:28.595 --> 00:44:32.335 but there's a reason why I'm mentioning it. So at the weekend, 00:44:32.335 --> 00:44:33.448 we went to the adventure park. 00:44:33.855 --> 00:44:36.670 That's not my kind of stuff, but I looked it up. You know, I was tricky. 00:44:37.018 --> 00:44:39.468 There are some animals. So I said, okay, so that's the main thing. 00:44:40.066 --> 00:44:44.255 We went there. They had two donkeys and maybe three goats. And I said, 00:44:44.255 --> 00:44:45.772 oh, okay, this is not the main thing. 00:44:46.376 --> 00:44:52.291 So it was all about these wires sliding through the forest and everything. I said, what is going on? 00:44:52.727 --> 00:44:56.454 So I just looked up and I said, I hate every second of it. And I'm terrified. 00:44:57.022 --> 00:45:01.359 So I was standing there, but then I had an option. Should I just collect evidence that I'm a coward? 00:45:01.550 --> 00:45:05.225 And I walk away and it's like, you know, it opens up on your laptop. 00:45:05.225 --> 00:45:05.949 It's going to stay there. 00:45:06.256 --> 00:45:10.305 Always remembering that I ran away or we have to take this box. 00:45:10.305 --> 00:45:11.196 There's no other option. 00:45:12.172 --> 00:45:15.956 So this is very similar to what you said, that, you know, when you face someone, 00:45:16.496 --> 00:45:19.771 and then you have that conversation, then you're collecting evidence that this 00:45:19.771 --> 00:45:20.960 is the kind of person I am. 00:45:22.341 --> 00:45:26.021 But if you run away, that's a problem. Even then, we don't have to overdo it. 00:45:26.021 --> 00:45:29.721 So usually the advice during coaching is that if something really bothers you 00:45:29.721 --> 00:45:32.458 or something is a pattern, then address it. 00:45:33.242 --> 00:45:39.148 If it's a one-off, maybe that's not needed. If it's a pattern or something really hurting, then yes. 00:45:39.525 --> 00:45:41.905 So you also have to pick your battles. Yes. 00:45:42.931 --> 00:45:47.311 Yes, absolutely. And that's a part of it, of learning when to speak and when 00:45:47.311 --> 00:45:50.113 not to speak, right? Why to speak? Why am I talking? 00:45:50.529 --> 00:45:55.001 What can I let go? What is a me problem? And that's a lovely part of preparing 00:45:55.001 --> 00:46:01.947 for a conversation is, is this me being exacting? Is this me being overdramatic? Is this me being... 00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:06.360 Whatever it might be. And sometimes that is the case. And that's really good 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:08.910 information. It's not that the other person needs to change. 00:46:08.910 --> 00:46:09.860 It's that I need to change. 00:46:11.754 --> 00:46:15.190 But we're never going to know unless we have a rubric, if we

have some kind 00:46:15.190 --> 00:46:20.720 of way of thinking about why and noticing I'm being bothered or this isn't working. 00:46:20.720 --> 00:46:26.301 Okay, why am I being bothered? Why am I annoyed? Why is this not working for me specifically? 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:30.320 And then thinking about, okay, who is even the problem in this scenario? 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.650 Is it the other person or is it the system in which they find themselves? 00:46:33.650 --> 00:46:38.340 Or, you know, we think about a pie chart and we can start divvying up what's 00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:42.100 going on here. And then we can think about it differently. But a lot of times 00:46:42.100 --> 00:46:43.865 we just think they're the problem. 00:46:44.862 --> 00:46:47.904 And then therefore we're not going to get the solution if we don't really have, 00:46:48.368 --> 00:46:51.003 a better way to assess what's actually going on. 00:46:51.700 --> 00:46:54.970 So this is about the three invisible forces that make or break a thing. 00:46:54.970 --> 00:46:58.180 So what we describe here is the cognitive diversity we talked about, 00:46:58.180 --> 00:47:01.470 the different perspectives clashing based on maybe different information or 00:47:01.470 --> 00:47:02.867 just different perspective. 00:47:03.371 --> 00:47:07.150 But then the other two invisible forces, motivation and psychological safety, 00:47:07.490 --> 00:47:11.237 matter as well, because maybe, let's say that we have a meeting, 00:47:11.866 --> 00:47:16.916 you do something that I don't like or you make a mistake, then do I care enough to say anything? 00:47:17.938 --> 00:47:22.199 Do I feel safe enough to say anything? That matters a lot. That's exactly where 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.769 the potential is lost. And this is what, I think it was the three-circuit partners 00:47:25.769 --> 00:47:29.776 in the US who wanted to understand how much potential is lost in a team. 00:47:30.579 --> 00:47:32.957 And the average was 79%. 00:47:33.779 --> 00:47:37.719 They work with hundreds of teams. The average was 79%. You put smart people 00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:39.488 on a team, hoping to create synergy. 00:47:39.871 --> 00:47:43.006 In reality, you're losing potential because they clash. 00:47:43.540 --> 00:47:47.079 Because of their personalities, the clash of values, and poor leadership. 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:48.584 These are the three main reasons. 00:47:49.415 --> 00:47:54.249 And that's a real disaster. So, you know, focusing on individuals is great, 00:47:54.249 --> 00:47:58.519 but understanding team dynamics, the biomarkers of high performance and team 00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.122 dynamics, now that is something concrete. 00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:05.809 That is something we can optimize. And now we work with more than 900 teams 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:07.090 in 50-something countries. 00:48:07.432 --> 00:48:11.539 So the interesting thing is that wherever you go, they are facing very similar challenges.

00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.172 How they handle them, that's slightly different. 00:48:14.921 --> 00:48:18.427 But it's not really industry-specific. It's not really country-specific. 00:48:18.961 --> 00:48:23.139 When it comes to the psychology of people and teams, it can be very similar. 00:48:23.139 --> 00:48:28.249 What they have to conform to, what is normal, rewarded, yes, that influences it. 00:48:28.859 --> 00:48:31.386 But when you look at individuals, it's very similar. 00:48:32.166 --> 00:48:36.339 I think that's really good news, right? There's something about being a part of the human community. 00:48:36.339 --> 00:48:40.719 And, well, as we were talking about before, communication and motivation is 00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:45.729 particular to me, right? Like, what is that? How are you going to communicate 00:48:45.729 --> 00:48:47.258 to me? How am I going to communicate to you? 00:48:48.048 --> 00:48:51.399 But we're still part of the human community. And so we do go towards pleasure 00:48:51.399 --> 00:48:53.919 and away from pain and away from pain more than towards pleasure. 00:48:53.919 --> 00:48:55.541 Like there are all these sorts of things. 00:48:56.040 --> 00:49:02.163 And so to have, to hold both of those, right? Both the specific and the uniform, 00:49:02.402 --> 00:49:06.436 right? There is something about what it means to be the kind of creature that we are. 00:49:06.820 --> 00:49:12.636 And so I think when, you know, if I was a manager or a leader listening to this podcast, it can feel... 00:49:13.671 --> 00:49:17.484 I've got to do all of these things, right? There's so much to hold on to. 00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:21.763 And I would say yes and no, because you can't lose sight of the fact that you 00:49:21.763 --> 00:49:23.533 have particular individuals in front of you. 00:49:24.248 --> 00:49:28.173 But, you know, it is a case of there is such a thing as human nature, 00:49:28.173 --> 00:49:30.366 and there is something about being a biological creature. 00:49:30.772 --> 00:49:36.423 And so, because of that, we can look at and scale down about, 00:49:36.423 --> 00:49:40.933 you know, causes and triggers and what tends to motivate people. 00:49:40.933 --> 00:49:45.473 And there are, you know, If we think about options, we're going to talk about 00:49:45.793 --> 00:49:49.343 all the possible options, or what are live options? And live options are like, 00:49:49.343 --> 00:49:52.303 what's really, given who this person is and what they value and who they see 00:49:52.303 --> 00:49:54.704 themselves to be, what's an actual live option for them? 00:49:55.238 --> 00:49:59.223 And so the more we can quiet the noise in our minds and think about what's going 00:49:59.223 --> 00:50:05.122 on here, then there are quite a few possibilities, but it's not infinite. 00:50:06.373 --> 00:50:07.275 It's manageable. 00:50:08.869 --> 00:50:12.297 So it is true that every, so yes, we are unique. Everybody is unique. 00:50:12.297 --> 00:50:15.317 That is true. But we are predictably different. And this is what, 00:50:15.317 --> 00:50:17.787 for example, Hippocrates, you know, discovered long time ago, 00:50:17.787 --> 00:50:21.367 two and a half thousand years ago, that we are all a combination of the four parasitic types. 00:50:22.221 --> 00:50:26.407 And hundreds of researchers came to the same conclusion, which is kind of true, 00:50:26.407 --> 00:50:30.637 but something is missing. So it is true that we are all a combination, 00:50:30.637 --> 00:50:34.247 but we were conditioned differently by our environment. So you and me could 00:50:34.247 --> 00:50:37.012 have an identical profile. It doesn't mean that we behave the same way. 00:50:37.331 --> 00:50:39.845 It means that the underlying values and drivers are very similar, 00:50:39.978 --> 00:50:43.417 but you faced very different challenges than me. You found different solutions. 00:50:43.417 --> 00:50:46.867 And also when you grew up, how much could you be yourself or how much did you 00:50:46.867 --> 00:50:48.998 have to pretend in order to be accepted? 00:50:49.898 --> 00:50:52.827 That's a really important question. And that's exactly what we can find out 00:50:52.827 --> 00:50:56.155 during coaching as well, because there is a blueprint. 00:50:56.724 --> 00:51:00.596 It doesn't take away the uniqueness, but it makes it a bit more manageable. 00:51:00.974 --> 00:51:04.957 And if we can get to that point where I can identify that, then we are making 00:51:04.957 --> 00:51:07.205 progress. That's fantastic. 00:51:07.894 --> 00:51:11.217 And I think I really like this idea of a blueprint in particular as you talk 00:51:11.217 --> 00:51:14.177 about a house, right? So you can see the structure of the house, 00:51:14.177 --> 00:51:19.337 but as you said, you don't see the colors, what's inside. 00:51:19.691 --> 00:51:25.019 You don't see the history of the house, how people feel about the house. 00:51:25.976 --> 00:51:27.444 The legend of the house. 00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:32.425 And so for someone like me, who is basically an existentialist, 00:51:32.425 --> 00:51:36.185 who eschew categories, it is also very helpful. 00:51:36.185 --> 00:51:40.305 Like I have to recognize that about myself, right? It is very helpful to definitely 00:51:40.305 --> 00:51:44.026 have a roadmap because there are many roadmaps out there. We don't have to do this alone. 00:51:44.339 --> 00:51:48.236 There are lots of helps so that we can achieve what it is that we want with, 00:51:48.799 --> 00:51:50.785 the least amount of angst, right? 00:51:50.785 --> 00:51:53.745 We don't need to court pain and difficulty. It will find us, 00:51:53.745 --> 00:51:57.855 right? So what are those things that we can do so that we can set ourself up 00:51:57.855 --> 00:52:00.578 and the people around us for success in our organizations? 00:52:01.511 --> 00:52:04.255 And oh my gosh, I see this time has really gotten away from us. 00:52:04.255 --> 00:52:07.716 So

I have an ending question. But before we get to that, I do want to know, 00:52:07.971 --> 00:52:09.775 how did you find yourself into this work? 00:52:10.075 --> 00:52:16.055 What was your trajectory that you found yourself in this work of helping leaders, 00:52:16.055 --> 00:52:17.143 helping organizations? 00:52:18.240 --> 00:52:21.595 The typical answer would be that I wanted to inspire millions of people and 00:52:21.595 --> 00:52:23.345 I wanted to help and a better world. 00:52:23.345 --> 00:52:27.325 But I don't think it's true because I think the best solutions born out of pain 00:52:27.325 --> 00:52:31.875 and frustration. And that's exactly what happened to me. So when I finished 00:52:31.875 --> 00:52:36.365 my second master's, then, you know, I felt smart. So I've got a business degree. 00:52:36.365 --> 00:52:37.785 This is really good. Let's do that. 00:52:38.278 --> 00:52:40.976 So I started my own company, which was a restaurant booking site. 00:52:41.104 --> 00:52:44.372 You book a table, we get the money, but it was more exciting than that. 00:52:44.581 --> 00:52:49.325 We started with 35 restaurants in Brighton and in one year we had 5,500 all 00:52:49.325 --> 00:52:52.662 over the UK and it turned into a joint venture with a software company. 00:52:53.273 --> 00:52:55.009 On paper, it made a lot of sense. 00:52:55.624 --> 00:52:58.660 In reality, I couldn't stand the other CEO, who was French. 00:52:59.253 --> 00:53:01.975 So we had to get out of the business. It wasn't pretty at all. 00:53:02.527 --> 00:53:05.825 And that's when I started my research. I said, how is it possible that that 00:53:05.825 --> 00:53:09.946 was the exact topic of my dissertation, Eastern and Western European joint ventures? 00:53:10.555 --> 00:53:13.395 The department where I studied was number one in the world in its category. 00:53:13.395 --> 00:53:14.984 Harvard is number two on that list. 00:53:15.484 --> 00:53:19.065 I had years of experience. How come I couldn't put that tier into practice? 00:53:19.775 --> 00:53:23.485 Why? So I got certified in a lot of different models, like intercultural, 00:53:23.485 --> 00:53:27.716 psychometric, leadership, and a lot of different things. 00:53:28.527 --> 00:53:31.666 My idea was that if all of these models are or were correct, 00:53:31.666 --> 00:53:33.467 there must be a huge overlapping part. 00:53:33.845 --> 00:53:35.905 And that's what I'm interested in. Not the fluff on the top, 00:53:36.236 --> 00:53:39.776 but there must be a structure beneath the surface, a blueprint of why people 00:53:39.776 --> 00:53:40.757 think and behave differently. 00:53:41.111 --> 00:53:44.709 And it turned out that there is one, and that's how GlobalDisk was born. 00:53:45.325 --> 00:53:51.446 And now we have more than 250 partners in 50-something countries because a lot 00:53:51.446 --> 00:53:52.768 of people are struggling with this. 00:53:53.899 --> 00:53:57.062 And sometimes the problem is that you think that you have the solution. 00:53:57.487 --> 00:54:00.766 So you're not open-minded you know if you don't know something then at least 00:54:00.766 --> 00:54:02.687 you're curious but if you think you do, 00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:07.006 then nothing goes in so you know if you're passionate about you know a certain 00:54:07.006 --> 00:54:10.816 psychological assessment then you think that that is like the scripture that's 00:54:10.816 --> 00:54:12.771 you know you have to take it seriously no, 00:54:13.437 --> 00:54:17.676 you cannot overdo it and everything is relative it's not even about the absolute 00:54:17.676 --> 00:54:23.247 score but it's about the mindset between you and me you and your environment you and your team, 00:54:24.017 --> 00:54:28.685 that's exactly what we can quantify and people realize ah that's why it backfired, 00:54:29.326 --> 00:54:33.517 now i do it differently not harder differently then i get better results, 00:54:34.361 --> 00:54:39.336 that's the key so that's how i started and now it's a good story that time not 00:54:39.336 --> 00:54:41.722 so much lots of crying but yeah, 00:54:42.417 --> 00:54:47.736 you have to be done yeah so my last question for you is what do you think needs 00:54:47.736 --> 00:54:51.878 to happen so that not only will all workers be treated with dignity and respect, 00:54:52.279 --> 00:54:55.947 but that they'll be encouraged to thrive and flourish. That's a big one. 00:54:57.313 --> 00:55:00.346 I think we can see some kind of progress since the pandemic, 00:55:00.346 --> 00:55:04.726 but not necessarily for the right reasons, because I think a lot of people, 00:55:04.726 --> 00:55:07.876 when they had to stay at home, they realized that, whoa, hold on a second. 00:55:07.876 --> 00:55:09.520 Why did I put up with this environment? 00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:11.639 And a lot of people didn't even go back to work. 00:55:12.841 --> 00:55:15.426 And that's the reflection part that you mentioned that, you know, 00:55:15.426 --> 00:55:19.128 sometimes you have to just step back and then realize, wow, why did I do that? 00:55:20.161 --> 00:55:23.505 And then they make better decisions. So now the companies are hurting enough, 00:55:24.195 --> 00:55:26.529 to focus on creating the right environment. 00:55:27.236 --> 00:55:32.146 Yes, it's still about money, but at least now they create that environment. 00:55:32.146 --> 00:55:36.236 So it's easy to focus on the visible things. Then, for example, 00:55:37.016 --> 00:55:40.649 if you look at the DNI field, we need all kinds of, you know, 00:55:41.137 --> 00:55:42.942 cultural groups. And it looks good. 00:55:43.447 --> 00:55:47.000 But if they don't feel included, if they don't feel safe, if they're not motivated, 00:55:47.766 --> 00:55:49.711 it means nothing. Indeed, you're asking for trouble. 00:55:50.291 --> 00:55:53.536 So this is exactly what we are focusing on. How do you create the right environment 00:55:53.536 --> 00:55:54.697 where people feel valued?

00:55:55.329 --> 00:55:59.286 And it is possible but it's very difficult to optimize it unless you measure 00:55:59.286 --> 00:56:03.996 it it's much easier to have a keynote speech about psychological safety, 00:56:04.723 --> 00:56:09.931 but that would be the same cost to do a workshop with data and you would make much more progress, 00:56:10.465 --> 00:56:14.316 so often for example a keynote speech can create much more disengagement because 00:56:14.316 --> 00:56:17.250 they talk about that oh this is how you should feel but that's how you feel 00:56:17.592 --> 00:56:20.884 so you just highlight the difference and people get pissed off well done, 00:56:21.796 --> 00:56:26.130 but you know exactly that data can be empowering or intimidating, 00:56:26.786 --> 00:56:31.256 it depends on someone's self-esteem because you know you can step on the scale 00:56:31.656 --> 00:56:37.653 and then you can get offended you can say it's fake news or you can go on a diet it's up to you. 00:56:38.772 --> 00:56:42.128 So when you measure something, then it becomes real. So it is possible, 00:56:42.940 --> 00:56:45.953 but I think it's about reconciling the dilemma. 00:56:46.249 --> 00:56:50.255 Because if you are a business owner, then you have the duty to maximize profit, 00:56:50.818 --> 00:56:53.244 for stakeholders. It's your business. That's your duty. 00:56:53.923 --> 00:56:57.208 On the other side, you have the people. Be nice to people. Create the right 00:56:57.208 --> 00:57:01.516 environment. So if I feel that there's a disconnect, I have to choose. 00:57:02.154 --> 00:57:06.058 So this is exactly what we, for example, we create this bridge in between. 00:57:06.058 --> 00:57:09.497 Because you don't have to choose. Indeed, they go hand in hand. 00:57:10.058 --> 00:57:13.479 Create the right environment, you make a lot of money. Done. 00:57:14.112 --> 00:57:17.664 There's no contradiction. But that's not necessarily common knowledge. 00:57:19.101 --> 00:57:22.258 And that's why we do the webinar. That's why I'm really grateful that I can 00:57:22.258 --> 00:57:25.688 be here. And then we talk about this topic so people realize that, 00:57:25.688 --> 00:57:26.988 yeah, that's the way forward. 00:57:28.084 --> 00:57:32.778 Yes, I love that. If we don't know about something, I'm not so quite sure I 00:57:32.778 --> 00:57:35.078 understand about quantification and wanting to know. 00:57:35.078 --> 00:57:39.618 But if we don't know, we can't fix it, right? And so, you know, 00:57:39.618 --> 00:57:43.648 we act given the information that we have. And how can I fix something if I 00:57:43.648 --> 00:57:47.752 don't know there's a problem, if I don't know what the problem is or the origin of the problem? 00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:53.686 And a lot of times people won't tell. They won't say because they want to be 00:57:53.686 --> 00:57:57.646 gainfully employed and they don't want to burn bridges and all these other sorts of issues. 00:57:57.646 --> 00:58:01.776 So we need to know if we really want, if we really want to have high-performing 00:58:01.776 --> 00:58:04.816 teens, you want psychological safety, you've got to do the work, 00:58:04.816 --> 00:58:06.732 and then you get the benefits. 00:58:07.121 --> 00:58:10.952 It's very hard to tell somebody. When you go into somebody's house and it smells, 00:58:11.446 --> 00:58:14.348 but they don't know because they're desensitized to it and it's their normal, 00:58:14.986 --> 00:58:18.793 it's very hard to see it unless we're shut. 00:58:19.307 --> 00:58:24.026 But it also takes a willingness to want to see. So that, but I think that the 00:58:24.026 --> 00:58:27.775 basic business case can help people. Do you want to make more money? 00:58:28.181 --> 00:58:31.176 Okay, do you want to be in business? All right, well, then we're going to have 00:58:31.176 --> 00:58:33.278 to do it in this way, this humane way. 00:58:33.911 --> 00:58:36.966 Yes, you have to connect your message to the highest value. So, 00:58:36.966 --> 00:58:39.466 you know, if you don't speak their language, then the message gets lost. 00:58:39.466 --> 00:58:44.035 So happy people make more money. There you go. Simplified version. Perfect. 00:58:44.778 --> 00:58:48.116 Well, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and the work that you're 00:58:48.116 --> 00:58:52.080 doing. And so if people want to know more about your work, what is your website? 00:58:53.188 --> 00:58:58.395 Game Changers by icq.com. And happy to connect with people on LinkedIn as well. 00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:03.451 Wonderful. All right, well, thank you. Take care and have a great day. Thank you so much. 00:59:04.184 --> 00:59:07.346 Csaba, thank you for a wonderful conversation. I had a whole list of things 00:59:07.346 --> 00:59:11.426 I wanted to talk to you about, and I loved how our conversation went. 00:59:11.426 --> 00:59:15.066 And the work that you were doing is fascinating. 00:59:15.066 --> 00:59:18.786 And I'm so glad that you're out there with you and your team, 00:59:18.786 --> 00:59:22.406 working with other teams so that we can have healthier work environments and 00:59:22.406 --> 00:59:24.006 so that people can have better lives. 00:59:24.006 --> 00:59:28.476 I mean, the quality of our work, the quality of our work environment has so 00:59:28.476 --> 00:59:30.875 much to do with the trajectory of our life because, 00:59:31.932 --> 00:59:38.047 the environment, how we feel able to grow and learn and develop and contribute, 00:59:38.047 --> 00:59:40.913 and then we bring that into our communities and to our families. 00:59:41.752 --> 00:59:45.077 Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services 00:59:45.077 --> 00:59:49.228 and hosted by me, Merry Brown. You can find us online at 3vconflictrestoration.com. 00:59:49.611 --> 00:59:53.287 Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday. And if you would like and subscribe 00:59:53.287 --> 00:59:56.340 wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, it's greatly appreciated. 00:59:56.904 --> 01:00:02.069 Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected. 01:00:02.243 --> 01:00:04.468 Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care.