326 - Bruno Sutic, Creator of RailsBilling의 전체 녹취록

00:03:16.000 Dear listener, if you would like to get letters in the mail from yours truly every month, you can go sign up at nonsensemonthly.com. 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.919 That's nonsensemonthly.com. 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:22.159 I'll say it one more time. 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:25.599 NonsenseMonthly dot com. 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.280 And now without further ado, here is today's episode. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.319 Hey, today I'm here with Bruno Sutic. 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:53.520 Bruno, welcome. 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:56.479 Hey there, it's great to be here. 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:57.919 Great to have you. 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.240 Uh we're we're doing this. 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:08.400 Um, I'm doing this, uh I've been doing kind of a series, a series of interviews with people I found on Reddit. 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:18.639 I put a post out there that said, like, hey, if you're uh running a Rails-powered business or something like that, um, I'd love to interview you on the show. 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:29.120 And I don't know if that's exactly your situation, but you mentioned you found me on uh Lucian Ginda's uh uh short Ruby newsletter, and you're like, hey, that sounds like fun. 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:30.399 I'll come on the show. 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.600 Anyway, uh tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.399 Yeah, uh hey everyone. 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.360 Uh so um that is actually my story. 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:46.879 Uh so I've I've made like two uh Ruby and Rails projects in the in the last couple years. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:55.759 Uh unfortunately they've stayed like side businesses, they never kind of turned into any significant uh source of income, so anything sustainable. 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:07.600 But yeah, I mean uh I think the technology and the underlying technology uh was uh kind of useful and interesting, and that's uh why I kind of decided to uh to let you know. 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:13.360 So the first project is uh is about like the domain is kind of somewhat unremarkable. 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.600 It's like a modern broken link checker. 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:22.480 But I think the uh underlying technology uh is async Ruby, which I have blocked to some extent. 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:30.480 Uh I think that's like relatively innovative and um pretty useful, and I think uh not a lot of people know about it. 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.879 So I think it's uh it's like you know, it could use some attention. 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.759 Um and the other project that I've uh worked on is called Rails Billing. 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:47.759 It's a um it's uh a solution for Stripe sub advanced Stripe subscription integrations for Ruby and Rails apps. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:05.920 Um uh again, uh it didn't turn out to be like a you know economically feasible project, but uh during the work on it, I kind of worked with Stripe a lot and dug into some deep, deep corners and discovered some useful things and and and like surprising things. 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.759 So um so yeah, that's like uh short intro from my side. 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:11.120 Yeah, tell me about that. 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.800 The Stripe Building Project, what inspired you to get started on that? 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:16.160 What led you to that? 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:17.120 Yeah. 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:30.000 Okay, so uh I've been a programmer for like 15 years, and from the very start, for some reason, I've always picked up like the I've always been like the billing guy at the companies, right? 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:39.600 Like it's like if there was like, hey, let's do some billing integration, whether it's stripe or not, I would volunteer and and got that like you know project and worked on it. 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:45.040 So I've been doing like you know, stripe integrations for for the last 12 years or so. 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:50.000 And I remember kind of how it was in like you know back then. 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:58.240 I mean, and I think it's safe to say back then because things have changed radically and dramatically when it comes to integration with Stripe, right? 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.399 So, for example, I I remember uh like one project in 2015. 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:12.959 It took me around like two weeks to have a full Stripe subscription integration with like um which was relatively like sophisticated, right? 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:32.079 It had like you know, like this multiple plans per uh per uh per subscription, and it was like um yeah, like you know, the the checkout form was like in line on on the site itself, and then fast forward to like 2023, which is like eight years forward, things have changed dramatically, right? 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:40.000 You can no longer have this like nice inline checkout form that submits uh credit card number to your server anymore. 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:56.639 You have to use Stripe checkout, which is like you know, external page uh from um from your application, which is like which may seem weird to your uh you know application users because like you're they're leaving your site and they're like redirected to somewhere else. 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:08.240 Now, just to like you know, if people are familiar with Stripe integration, Stripe sold that, so now you can have like a Stripe checkout in line with your application, but like I think a couple years back you you could we couldn't have that. 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:14.639 Like I think it it like they uh uh they announced the feature in like 2023 or two, even even a little bit later, right? 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:15.360 That's interesting. 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:22.000 I I use Stripe from like 2011 to 2015, um, and a little bit outside of that too. 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:37.759 But during that time, I know that I could embed a Stripe credit card form in my application, um, and then uh more recently Stripe checkout

came out, and I'm like, oh, this is a neat additional way that they're offering. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:42.639 I was unaware that apparently that was the only option, at least for a while. 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.080 You couldn't do the embedded form, you could only do Stripe checkout. 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:53.360 Okay, so it's a technical question that I think uh so uh I think Stripe checkout is like the mainstream. 00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:04.559 I think 98% of the applications, right, like you know, that are published uh in like 2025-26 are doing Stripe checkout for a good reason. 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:13.440 And there's like a lot of nuances, uh nuances there with like you know, financial regulation, the UI regul uh EU, sorry, EU regulation. 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:24.240 Uh but like yes, you can have like an inline, like you know, a small input field where you enter where a customer enters a credit card number, but look, it it's like hard. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:38.559 That that became like really hard, and that is like one of like I wanted that on my projects because it's like a most seamless, uh, seamless uh what do you call it, like solution and like the best solution for end customers, but it's hard. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:42.559 You know, it's hard for very, very specific reasons. 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:49.519 Um the financial regulation, like the finance, the regulation there it there has advanced a lot. 00:09:49.759 --> 00:10:00.639 Like in 2015, like 10 years ago, you could send a credit card number to your server and then just pass it through uh via Stripe API calls. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.399 That's like no longer the case. 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:08.639 Like you need to do like uh, I think you need to have you be you need to be like uh the the regulated. 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:14.879 So uh you would need to have regular audits of your applications in order to do that. 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:16.320 So that's out of the question. 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:28.320 Uh now you need like uh JavaScript to submit that credit card number from Stripe uh like uh iframe to Stripe servers directly. 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:37.120 Um and uh so that's one thing the financial regulation has been improved, I'd say, is for the benefit of end customers. 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:58.639 And the second thing that has changed a lot and changed dramatically is the EU, so European Union regulation from 2019 that requires uh you know uh businesses doing business in like European Union to have this second factor authentication for payments. 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:03.200 Now, I'm gonna stop there and just ask you maybe are you familiar with this? 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:08.000 Is this something uh you that you have as like it's your location? 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.279 The requirement for 2FA for payments? 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:19.600 No, so when you buy stuff online, you buy and buy things that like you know, a random random online store. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:37.840 Are you like as an end user, are you required to like um you know, uh you submit like your a credit card number, you everything, everything that's needed for uh, you know, for the payment, and then there's like this additional verification where you get a striped model saying please authenticate this payment with your bank. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.600 And then you get you get a like a mobile notification, you click it, and you say approve. 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:49.440 So is it like a second second step for authenticating uh authenticating online payment? 00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:09.120 No, the closest thing to that is that only sometimes um when I buy something with my American Express credit card, it will have something pop up and American Express will want me to do do a secondary confirmation for that transaction, but that's the only thing. 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.919 Yeah, so I think that's it, right? 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:22.960 Because and it's called like just you know, if if we have like not a knowledgeable uh listen, like you know, what do you call us, like uh listeners for for this podcast, it's called 3DS, right? 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:27.440 And it's like it's basically the standard in the European Union. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:36.000 Like if you buy every like third or fourth or paid, depends on the bank, really, uh payment, online payment, you get you get this flow. 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:38.480 And and uh so it's great for end users. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:39.360 I mean, I love it. 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:47.919 It's like uh over here, like online payments are like relatively not relatively, like they're really safe. 00:12:48.159 --> 00:13:01.360 And like, you know, I read like how there's like you know, this big you know, fraud cases in the United States, like we don't have this because like we have like relatively advanced um you know regulation, right? 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:08.960 And so as an end user, uh it's great to have this, like you know, have this security when buying things online. 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:31.039 Now, as a developer, you that's really hard to uh implement for subscriptions because it opens up a whole array, a whole like um vector of attacks uh when um for your application. 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:39.600 And that is why like if you implement that manually, it's like you you may have problems unless you're really, really careful careful. 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:48.960 Uh but if you use stripe checkout, then Stripe handles that for you, and there's like a much uh there's much less chance that you get exposed to these attacks. 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:51.600 That makes a lot of sense. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:14:08.240 Yeah, something that occurred to me when I first saw the um Stripe checkout feature is like obviously if I'm just passing the baton to Stripe and letting them do absolutely everything, then that reduces my attack surface area to basically nothing. 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:09.519

Absolutely. 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.000 Um so yeah, I mean, uh that's it. 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:28.320 And uh, but look, I mean, uh with Stripe checkout, you uh you know, as we talked earlier, you have this additional uh like um step for the end users, right? 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:51.519 So do you do something they like, you know, for example, if you do like a project management application, if you you know, just a standard uh SaaS app, if that's your thing, the users kind of have to, you know, interact with your app and then they're like redirected to Stripe checkout, which is like relatively simple to do, and they have to finish the checkout there, which is like a always a little bit different experience. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:15:07.679 So like I noticed like online, there's like you know, the small apps, they always do like a checkout, but the big enterprises, like for example, I don't know, like I'll just mention like the big ones like uh Shopify, for example, they have the inline credit card form. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.440 They also use Stripe, right? 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:24.159 But they have like this inline really convenient box where they fully control the experience for the end users and they have it tightly integrated with your with their application, um, so it works like you know, just just great. 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:33.039 So um, so yeah, I mean I think uh the the the the inline input field is like a lot of work but better UX, right? 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.120 Check Stripe checkout, more security, easier, like super easy. 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.919 Uh you know, as you just redirect the user and they're they handle everything there. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.559 Um yeah, so uh that's it. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:16:13.039 Uh and also like there's like one big limitation to I think uh any Stripe hosted product, whether it's like Stripe checkout or I think uh they the Stripe also has this other uh feature called Stripe uh customer portal, which allows you to do pretty much everything else on their site, which is uh managing, for example, uh cut end users' uh plans, right? 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:22.159 But the only downside, like the only limitation is you only get to have one plan per subscription. 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:37.039 I don't know if that if that if that's like uh you know, because like if you if you charge, you know, if your project management application has like a plan per module, you cannot do that with Stripe checkout, like or and Stripe customer portal. 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:45.360 You only get to have like you know simple pricing model with you know these Stripe hosted uh hosted uh pages. 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:46.720 I see. 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:48.720 Yeah, it seems like a big limitation. 00:16:49.919 --> 00:17:04.720 I mean, yeah, I think I guess um I guess you know it's it's the norm nowadays, but like you know, if you if you need something more custom, it's like hard to get with these uh with these, you know, uh hosted stripe hosted pages, right? 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:19.839 Um so um yeah, yeah, so um what were things like this, like that limitation you just mentioned, uh is that an example of the kind of thing that inspired you to create this? 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:21.119 What what do you call it? 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.720 Is it a library, a product? 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.559 Uh how do you it's a gem, it's a pay gem, right? 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:40.160 Uh my idea with it was uh was it to be like a something similar to like what Mike Berham is doing with Sidekick, except like uh I I didn't like I do not yet have like a free plan, right? 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:47.119 Stripe uh so Mike Perham has like Sidekick, which is like the base sidekick is of course free, free to use for everyone. 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.880 And then he has like a pro and enterprise which are paid, right? 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:57.519 Uh currently I I only have paid plans just because I don't know, it kind of turned out that way. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:02.319 Uh, but I do want to uh offer uh uh free plans sometime in the future. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:10.960 Uh but yeah, uh I mean um so I kind of wanted it like the best experience for myself, uh for for my application. 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.799 So I then created that. 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.519 It turned out to be like a really, really hard project. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:34.799 Like, you know, handling multiple plans per subscription is like really, really hard, especially in combination with you know what we just talked about just earlier, with uh, you know, the the um you know this 3DS flow, which is like a second factor authentication for payments. 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:50.000 Um now I mean it's like it kind of gets real somewhat like a lower level, but do you want me to kind of explain one of the common like attacks when it comes to like 3DS? 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:55.039 Is that something that we you would be or the listeners would be kind of interested to hear? 00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:05.119 Um sure, and and this term that you've used a couple times, I'm I'm not quite catching what it is, and I'm I'm not understanding what the word is and what it refers to. 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:06.640 If you could expand on that a little bit. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.240 Yeah, sure, sure. 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:28.480 So it's uh tree DS, tree as a number, and then DS as just uh characters, and it's uh some kind of uh abbreviation for the protocol uh that's used uh in uh finance between banks and uh card, so Visa and MasterCard. 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:38.240 So I don't it's called I think uh card networks, and then also Stripe, which is like uh uh like a merchant uh in this case, right? 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:51.759 So basically it's like some kind of a protocol that's used amongst these players, the bank, the the the Visa, MasterCard, and Stripe to uh kind of

transfer information. 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:58.559 So I think this is like a pretty much lower level, and this is not some something that you need to know and or understand. 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:12.720 And I and I also don't understand this like when when you just wanna when you just want payments for your SaaS application, uh, but like it's a thing that like kind of communicates the risk for the transaction, right? 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.039 Whether it's like fraud or not, uh between you know these players. 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:26.000 And uh then depending on the risk, I think the bank here is the one that like issues, oh, this smells like fraud. 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:31.440 Let me double check this user and really confirm that they are the card owner, right? 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.440 And when that happens, uh you get this like a model from Stripe. 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:50.880 And this is uh I'm like 99% sure that this is uh the thing that you got with like uh American Express, because uh that is the only major protocol that I'm aware uh for these kind of confirmations, right? 00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:14.079 So basically, when a user uh wants to do a transaction online, uh if they're like uh suspicious, they get a small and they have to do some other check, some other authentication, which is most uh most often like a confirming uh transaction in uh inside of a bank with like uh you know their banking mobile application. 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:16.160 Okay. 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:17.759 Yeah. 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:19.440 Uh I'm three. 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:24.240 Yeah, so I'm just I was just gonna look up the like the 3D sec uh 3DS, what it stands for. 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:25.839 It's like 3D secure, right? 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:35.279 So I think it indicates that there's like three factors that make the every transaction uh secure for you know in in financial terms. 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.160 Uh but again it's like low low-level stuff. 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:38.880 Okay. 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:40.400 Okay. 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:48.720 Um and then these sorts of things um contributed to your uh starting this this gem. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:22:00.960 Um were you like already trying, were were you already seeking to create some kind of product and you're like, oh, this seems like an opportunity, or were Was it more organic? 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.680 And you're like, I'll build this thing because I need it. 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.119 And oh, this can be a product also, or was it something different? 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:08.240 Tell me about that. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:09.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:22.240 So actually, I uh I extracted the library from the project I worked on before, which was uh the async Ruby project, the uh the bro the broken link checker. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:28.079 Uh so it's it was actually for that product that I wanted to have this seamless experience. 00:22:28.240 --> 00:23:00.799 Uh

so I built it and I kind of experienced how hard I was to handle everything, both like you know, um having like a nice user experience with like an inline uh card number card number input, uh handling 3DS and all the edge cases, which there are many, um, and then also having this like relatively advanced uh like uh pricing model where you can have multiple uh uh subscription plans per user subscription, right? 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:09.119 Um uh so uh so I worked on all that in uh for this like uh previous project, realized how hard I was. 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:17.759 So once I kind of saw that like the first project is not gonna take off in financial terms, I was thinking, like, what could I work on next? 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:20.799 And this seemed like a really hard thing. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:36.000 So I assumed that might, you know, if I kind of offer that, that might kind of um gain some traction or gain some interest, but it turns out like it's like no, people just use Stripe checkout and they don't really care. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:43.759 Uh but uh I guess it comes it's like about marketing as well, which uh indeed is hard. 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.119 It's hard nowadays. 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:49.759 Um and how much uptake has this product gotten? 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.680 Do you have just a couple customers or hundreds? 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.279 Yeah, a couple. 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:56.319 No, no. 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.920 I have two friends and one like real customer. 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:10.480 Uh, but there's like I mean, I I I don't really know what what the right term would would be like you know, like a product market fit or like marketing or a channel. 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:17.839 What like but like I don't have like a consistent like I don't have any kind of funnel, you know, uh getting like inquiries. 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:25.039 Um so yeah, from like economically it's not really it didn't find product market fit. 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:26.720 I think that's the word. 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:28.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:31.039 The marketing part is very hard. 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:39.599 I said on a recent podcast that I think of that as at least 50% of the endeavor is the sales and marketing part. 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:46.160 Um that was my like ulterior motive for inviting people onto the podcast. 00:24:46.319 --> 00:25:07.359 Um, because I'm like, well, if I invite like CEOs, founders, CTOs, that kind of person onto the podcast, then I can make some new friends who who are doing their own businesses, and maybe out of some of those, surely out of some of those, uh, some of them will be interested in my product. 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:13.599 And so we're early on in that experiment, so we'll see how that goes. 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.160 Um, but yeah, it's it's hard. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:26.559 Uh the way I look at it is like find the places where these people hang out and then like try to be there and be involved and get to know people and stuff like that. 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:27.519 Yeah. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.359 Yeah. 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.319 It might be go ahead. 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:38.400 Oh, I was just gonna say, um, it's hard enough where I am. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.359 So I'm in Michigan in a rural area. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.920 I'm I'm not in San Francisco or something like that. 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.000 So that makes it kind of hard as far as what what I can do in person. 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.720 I can still go to conferences and stuff like that. 00:25:50.960 --> 00:26:02.640 Um seems like it might be even more of a challenge in Europe, um, because there's you're even farther away from these epicenters like San Francisco and stuff like that. 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:03.920 True that. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:04.799 Yeah. 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:05.759 Yeah. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:20.000 Um, yeah, I mean, um I do have like one, like not really a buddy, but like uh like an acquaintance or like a friend that kind of made it in uh in like the SaaS world. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:32.960 Uh he created like like local like uh an app from like Europe, from Zagreb Europe with a team in Zagreb Europe, and kind of made it sustainable, made it like a good business. 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:42.960 Nothing like you know super popular, but still it's like it's it's I think formidable success to have uh working and profitable SaaS. 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:57.039 Um but in a lot of cases like that, you know, um it's all about like a CEO and like all kind of online gimmicks, which like I feel we as a programmers sometimes shy away from. 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.960 Uh and that's why I think it's like hard for us. 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.200 Um I agree. 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:04.319 Yeah. 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:15.359 And like, you know, one thing I I've spent sometimes, so I have like you know, like two SAS products launched like exclusively by me and under my belt, so technically that's okay. 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:20.160 But like I've also spent like a couple months kind of trying, okay, I'm gonna get that marketing now. 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:23.680 I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna start learning and all that. 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:37.440 And one thing I noticed with like all this rural, and there's like it's huge, huge uh topics in itself, is how hard it is to verify any kind of information. 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:43.599 It's like so it's in star contract contrast when you start program, right? 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:50.960 If someone tells you like, oh, with programming, you know, you use this, they give you they give you a couple lines of code. 00:27:51.119 --> 00:28:03.039 Well, it's really easy to just take that, copy paste in like whatever whatever programming environment you use, like for example, Rails Console or uh you know IRB or whatever, paste it in. 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:04.319 Did you get

the output? 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:05.119 Does it work? 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:06.400 Does it work or not? 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.680 Like it's really easy, um, which is great. 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:26.000 Well, whereas like you know in like in like for example, SEOs, it it takes you like months and months to verify any like techniques or any like strategies or any techniques that like whatever you work on, whatever you learn. 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.000 So um, so yeah, I mean it's like yeah, yeah. 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:37.200 As programmers, we're kind of spoiled by the fact that we can often get fast empirical feedback. 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:45.440 Whereas with the business advice, um, a lot of times there's not ever a way to know whether what you did worked, you know. 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:54.799 Like I've been doing this podcast for five uh plus years, you know, more than that, like I don't know, seven years or something like that. 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:56.319 Yeah, a long time. 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:06.000 Um and if something positive happens, uh like I don't know, I get a certain job offer or something like that. 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.759 Is that because of the podcast? 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:10.559 Is it because of the conference talks that I've been doing? 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:12.799 Like, I will never know, you know? 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.720 And so you can't operate off of the feedback in a lot of cases. 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:28.720 You just have to um understand the underlying principles and be like, okay, I know that if I do this, then this other thing is likely to happen. 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.559 I'll never get feedback. 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.640 Um again, you can't empirically test it. 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:44.720 And so, you know, uh a lot of people uh advocate treating a startup like a genetic algorithm. 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.839 It's like, oh, just toss something random out there and then see what feedback you get. 00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:03.119 And if that doesn't work, make a random adjustment and toss that out there, see what feedback you get, and just kind of like blindly throw things against the wall and see what sticks and just move forward that way. 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:10.799 And it kind of sounds like something that might work, but it doesn't fucking work, like that that doesn't work. 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:19.680 Um your feedback is it's not gonna be that fast and it's not gonna be that clear. 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.880 Um, so you just have to understand. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:32.799 You know, you can't again, it's not a genetic algorithm where you're just blindly crapping stuff out into the world and then seeing what happens. 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:38.720 You have to understand why you would do something, and then you do it, and you'll never get feedback on it. 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:40.559 So it's a totally different thing. 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:47.279 Because like I it was totally unexpected what you said. 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:55.519 I thought you were gonna say, look, just throw things out, and something eventually sticks, just because large numbers, just because internet. 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.799 Uh, so it was like surprising to s to hear your perspective on this. 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:12.240 Um I you know, ten or so years ago, I I I wanted to make it in like an open source world, you know. 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:19.279 And I kind of got lucky with that, like uh what you just like with that strategy. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:25.279 Just like just have ideas and release them, and something eventually will stick. 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:50.319 And it kind of did, um for me, uh at least in like in the open source world, which is like I don't know if it if it's like a topic for now, but um but yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's interesting to hear your perspective that's uh uh like so what do you like what do you uh like where do you place emphasis when it comes to like understanding? 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.480 Is it like the market? 00:31:52.880 --> 00:32:06.960 Is it like more people, like understanding what people want, and or like maybe even like slightly like you know, just you know, understanding what what drives them? 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:08.880 Like, where do you place emphasis? 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:16.400 Like, you know, if I if you may share, because I'm generally you genuinely uh curious about your thoughts on this. 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.440 Yeah, a lot of what you just said is spot on. 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:27.359 Um so so much of business is just like psychology, understanding human behavior. 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:35.759 Um, and to me, it's about like modeling other people's behavior and understanding what people do and why they do it and stuff like that. 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:54.720 And the great thing about that is there is a large body of knowledge uh describing and explaining human behavior uh that is well verified and strongly understood and will never ever change. 00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:09.920 Uh, because you know, human brains only evolve so fast, and by the time human brains uh change meaningfully, I will have been dead for a very long time. 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:16.960 So all this knowledge will be uh uh equally applicable for the rest of my life. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:28.480 So understanding that stuff will never be a waste of time, um, especially because understanding psychology and human behavior is just like useful in life anyway. 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.359 So it'll never be a waste of time. 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:38.000 Um and I also like to go outside the software industry. 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.119 My experience is that uh software people give the worst business advice. 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:59.200 It's usually just like some kind of uh advice that somebody gave sometime and somebody else heard, and then just

gets regurgitated over and over, and it kind of becomes like folk wisdom. 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:07.200 Like, for example, find 10 paying customers and actually collect a payment from them before you ever start building your product. 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.239 That advice gets repeated so much, and it's like, are you sure? 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:16.639 Like, are you sure that's what everybody should do in all situations? 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:18.719 I'm not so sure about that. 00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:26.239 So I go outside of the software industry and try to get uh business material from outside. 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.840 But the other thing that I found, man, there's a few things. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:35.360 Um, so I've mentioned on the show before that there's a whole fake industry around business advice. 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:45.920 My strong, strong suspicion is that most people who buy business books are just dabblers, not even dabblers, but like spectators. 00:34:46.239 --> 00:35:01.039 Uh they they they like the idea of starting a business, and so they do the easiest thing you can do, which is to read some of these mass market business books, and that gives them kind of a feeling that they're doing something. 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:18.800 Um, but really they're not doing anything, and the people who sell these books know that they're selling to people who aren't gonna do anything, and so it's a bunch of fake, crappy advice sold to fake entrepreneurs who are never gonna do anything. 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:30.400 And understanding that, if in fact that's how it really is, um understanding that makes me look at all these entrepreneurial resources a lot differently. 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:46.719 I also realized that in addition to a lot of this advice being kind of partway fake, um the majority of useful information is not in a book anywhere, it's not on a blog post anywhere. 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:58.800 You just have to find people who you have to find smart people who are actually in the arena doing things and learn from them and find out what they're doing. 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:12.239 And look at your own situation and reason from first principles, understanding psychology and understanding business and economics and stuff like that in general, and being like, okay, what is my situation? 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.880 How does this all apply to my situation? 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:18.719 Is it like this or like that, and why, all that kind of stuff? 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.440 So that's that's some of how I look at it. 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:24.079 Interesting. 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:24.639 Interesting. 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:40.079 I mean, I think even finding what you mentioned, like finding people that are successful and just maybe learning from them, or like just I think that's that's also a privilege or or hard, you know. 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:52.320 Uh as I mentioned, like I think at the start, I I only have one, not not a friend, but like, you know, a person that I could invite to a coffee or a beer like every six months. 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.519 So like you know, acquaintance, so to speak. 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.400 I mean, just one, right? 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:05.840 Um, and I don't get to pick his brain like I have to be like normal around people, you know. 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.559 But uh but yeah, do you have any like advice? 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.920 I mean, uh, if it interests me, maybe it interests other people. 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:22.159 Like, you know, how would you go about like would you go out on like meetups, like local meetups about business that are so outside of programming, right? 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:27.039 Not about Ruby, but about like, you know, I don't know, something else? 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.239 Is there something you do that you think is applicable? 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.480 Yeah, that's an interesting question. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.880 Um, I suspect many people might not really like the answer. 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:46.480 Um, but here's how I have made a lot of prominent friends and connections in the Ruby community. 00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:51.920 Um, and then I'll speak to outside the Ruby community and outside the program community also. 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.760 Um, but this podcast has been a huge one. 00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:02.719 Um, an unexpected side benefit of this podcast is all the relationships that I've gotten out of it. 00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:16.079 Um, because when I invite people onto the podcast, almost everybody says yes, and then we talk for an hour, and we uh often we come away with some level of being friends. 00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:18.480 Sometimes it's even like instantaneous. 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:27.119 We're just like, yes, you are my friend, and it goes both ways, and we're just instantly friends, and that's always great when that happens. 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.320 Um, and honestly, that's kind of the majority of the time. 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:39.360 We meet each other and we just like each other, and now we're just kind of you know, you don't become friends from just one conversation, but it's the start. 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:48.239 Um so that's one thing, and then you talk to somebody over and over throughout the years, and they kind of become friends, and you see them at conferences and stuff like that. 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:52.239 So that's another thing, attending conferences and meeting people in person. 00:38:52.719 --> 00:39:16.639 Um, and I don't just show up, but I made a I make a deliberate effort to make connections there, and not just like you know, I'm not just trying to like collect business cards or certainly not give out business cards or that level of transactional relationship, but I'm trying to make genuine friendships with people, and I hardly go to any talk. 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:22.960 Sometimes I go to a conference and I don't go

to a single talk, I just spend the whole time talking with people. 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:35.039 And then I even have hosted my own conference for three years, and then I'm doing a fourth one this year, and that is a whole different level. 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:51.280 Um, like for example, uh well, I don't I don't necessarily want to like name names and stuff, but I've I've invited prominent people uh to speak at my conferences, and that's a good opportunity for people, you know. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:56.719 Uh people like to speak at conferences because all the reasons that they do. 00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:08.400 And if they're speaking at my conference, well, then I get to organize a speaker dinner and I sit and have dinner with these people, and we spend time throughout the conference, blah, blah, blah. 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.760 We we form a much closer relationship. 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.320 Then maybe we continue doing podcast episodes and stuff like that. 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:26.960 It's a great way to get closer with people, and then because I did that, partly because I did that at least, I was invited to co-chair RubyConf 2026. 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:37.920 And so I've now invited three keynote speakers to RubyConf 2026 from connections I had before. 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:52.320 And now, you know, I'm surely going to be able to go and have dinner with these keynote speakers all together, and these are I can't share any of the names yet, but these are all really big people in the Ruby community. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.320 That's been really helpful. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.199 Uh, and then the other thing is writing. 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:03.440 I've done a lot of blogging, that has worked out really well for me, drives a lot of traffic to my site. 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:10.320 These things combine, like I host my podcast on the same website where I host my blog. 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:12.079 Hardly anybody does that. 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:17.519 But if you do that, then it's like two tributaries flowing into the same river. 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:21.280 All the SEO juice goes to the same domain. 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:28.719 This is one of those things where like I'll never know, I'll I'll never empirically know whether that helped with my SEO. 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:31.119 But I know that my SEO is pretty good. 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:40.719 If if you Google for a lot of these topics that I've written about, my post is like number one or number two, or at least first page for a lot of these things. 00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:45.360 And uh often uh pretty broad topics like code duplication. 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:52.480 If you go, if you Google code duplication, last time I checked, one of my posts was on the first page. 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.440 It's like at the very end of the first page. 00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.400 Um, so that has helped. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:11.679 And one other thing I'll mention, uh, it's another form of writing, is my my snail mail programming newsletter, which I advertise at the beginning of each of these podcast episodes. 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:17.199 That is a unique way to reach people that's a little bit more intimate. 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.000 Uh, you know, they have to give me their home address and get mail from me and stuff like that. 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:32.880 And I include things that are fairly personal in these newsletters because it's not like an email, uh, an email newsletter where it has to be on topic or people will unsubscribe. 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:38.400 I can just I can go nuts and and put whatever I want in these newsletters, so I do. 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.280 It's called nonsense monthly, so nobody can complain if it's too off topic. 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:44.559 Yeah, I saw it. 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.119 Like, I dude, like what's going on with that? 00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:48.480 Like, is that like a thing? 00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.840 It's like, do you actually do that still? 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.199 Oh yeah. 00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:56.480 Do people like pay you 50 50 bucks, right? 00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:57.039 Did I get it? 00:42:57.519 --> 00:42:59.679 People pay for it 50 bucks a year. 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.800 Okay, can you can uh can you share like anything? 00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.719 Is it like above hundred? 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.320 Like it's like some number, like is it like 10 people? 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:11.119 Is it 50? 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:12.239 Is it 100? 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:13.280 500? 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:17.440 Like I mean, it's you're just curious about like the reach that you get with that. 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:27.039 But that that's yeah, that's like I don't even know the the good word for that, like you know, yeah. 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.559 So in a positive and a surprising way, by the way, right? 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:37.840 It's not like you mean if if people do subscribe, then you have something there, which is like envious from my side. 00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:38.960 Uh, you know. 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:43.760 Yeah, to be honest, I'm surprised that anybody signs up for the thing. 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:50.639 Um, but I have this report that I can run that hits the Stripe API and tells me like what my annual revenue. 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:55.280 Last time I checked, it was like twelve or thirteen hundred bucks a year or something like that. 00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.639 So not nothing, enough to cover the postage. 00:43:59.440 --> 00:43:59.679 Yeah. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.239 Yeah. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:00.800 Yeah. 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.480 And then there's some VIPs on it too. 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:16.719 Because, you know, for example, uh my my current boss and at least two of three of my former bosses are on my list. 00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:24.719 Cause I want to be able to reach people and have some influence on people,

perhaps, and just remind people that I exist. 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.480 I I used to do this to help with my consulting business, but now I don't do that anymore. 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.199 Um but again, it's it's a reminder once a month that I exist. 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:48.239 And so if, for example, I need something from somebody and I haven't talked with them in five years, but they've been getting my newsletter for the last five years, it's not exactly out of the blue. 00:44:48.320 --> 00:45:03.440 You know, they've been hearing from me every month, assuming they actually open and read the letters, which not everybody does, but I think most of the people do, because they uh they'll like text me and be like, hey, great newsletter this month, or something like that. 00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:08.079 So those are some of the benefits that I get out of it, in addition to just the revenue. 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:09.599 Yeah. 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:10.800 Yeah. 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:28.239 It's like I just want to like, you know, some of while we're talking a lot of these things, like I just want to share one of the things that occurred to me, and it occurs to me the the older I am, like the more mature, so to say, it occurs to me more and more. 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:33.679 And that is like how important really the human contact is. 00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:49.199 And not just in like a customer-to-business owner context, it's right, what like uh I guess like my end goal, my my desire, like to be like a business owner that like has a lot of customers, that's a great position to be in. 00:45:49.360 --> 00:46:03.440 But what you you were talking a lot was like this just normal connection with other people, whether it be like professionally in conferences, having dinners, you know, the the e the the snail mail thing that you have. 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:30.079 And like, if I may share a private thing that's not super like uh I don't feel anything shameful, but like when I was like younger, I thought like, look, you get to be a successful business person or like whatever you do successfully by just being smart and just doing some great thing, and you put it out there, and suddenly you you have things going, which apparently is not the case. 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:47.840 And like I think uh again, the the older I get, and like the the more and more I become like aware of the things you were just talking that like you know, having relationships uh with people like normal relationships is like really important, yeah. 00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:50.400 Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:57.679 It's all about people, and there's kind of this principle or philosophy or whatever that I go by. 00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:12.719 I haven't articulated it before now, but how many people can I form such a good relationship with that they would just do anything for me? 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.239 And that's you know, that's not easy. 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:21.360 That requires you gotta have you you you have to give before you can get. 00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:29.440 And so how can I just make people like me so much that they would just do anything? 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:41.119 Um, and you know, that's a little bit extreme, but like how can I at least get people to like me enough that they would pay me 50 bucks a year for my newsletter or something like that? 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.440 That's that's one way that I that I think about all this. 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:49.599 If if if you give enough, then you'll get something back. 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.280 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:05.920 May I kind of change the topic slightly but still stay on like the same venue on like the intersection between people and business and work and all that. 00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:24.400 But like, does it occur to you, and I'm just gonna say for a go for first perspective, the other thing that like the the older I get is kind of starting to become like more obvious, and that is just luck, or just a little bit of luck, right? 00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:52.960 Like, look, I mean, I've been like in some of the life situations that are business and non-business related, and you just gotta have a little bit of that something positive happens, or to put it another way, I've been in the situation like business, like for example, job interviews just recently, I think three months ago, where it was like, look, I'm like a perfect guy for your job. 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:58.559 I'm like, I I kind of did uh an extra step during the job interview, like before the job interview. 00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:05.440 I find you stripe stripe bugs in your uh SaaS application, you know, because like we didn't get to spend much of time on that. 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:12.320 Like, you know, there's like these X Stripe exploits that where you can get like full access to the application without paying anything. 00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:28.880 Okay, it doesn't really matter the technicalities, but like and for some reason, like it's like maybe I was like clumsy with the words or this and the the situation kind of got derailed, and like I get didn't get that particular job, right? 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:33.840 Even though everything was like logically is in favor of me getting that job. 00:49:34.079 --> 00:50:00.000 And on the flip side, like there were some like you know, life situations, also closely business related, like you know, work-related, where things like kind of flow and good things happen, and you have that little bit like just like a spark, like what is there, like the right phrase, but like you just have that little bit of luck and things fall into place and great, right? 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:02.559 Um yeah. 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.039 Do you have anything to add in that regard? 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:22.400 Like the luck, the the the flow, the like just you know, just a little bit of it, you know, not

talking about winning the lottery, something like obscene, but just like um yeah, because yeah, I mean I think there's there's something to it, right? 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.280 I mean, we depend on luck a lot. 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:36.800 Um to me it's like if you have just one chance to do something, um maybe there's a really small chance that it works out. 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:58.000 Like if you're gonna if you say, okay, I have a job as a grocery store cashier, as I did when I was younger, and I want to become a programmer, which I did, imagine that I decided that I was gonna go on one interview, and if I got the job, then great, I'm in. 00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:02.320 If I didn't get the job, then I guess I'll just be a cashier for the rest of my life. 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:10.880 You know, imagine if I put all my eggs in the basket of that one uh one event and I didn't get the job. 00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:13.280 Like, that's a terrible plan. 00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:20.719 Um, you have to have a whole bunch of these and put yourself in a whole bunch of situations where something lucky can happen. 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.360 So that's kind of how I think about that. 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:33.920 And I've gotten lucky on some stuff, and I've gotten unlucky on a whole bunch of stuff, so many things. 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:45.360 Uh, and and it's kind of like I don't know, you have to get your teeth kicked in like 99 times, and then on the 100th time you you get the payoff. 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:48.320 I think the ratio is something like that. 00:51:48.880 --> 00:52:03.679 And so a lot of people who seem from the outside just to have experienced some good luck, yes, they did, but it's only because before they had that one stroke of luck they got their teeth kicked in 99 times. 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:04.719 Yeah. 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:08.559 You know, I uh I also want to share, uh I agree. 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:18.159 I agree with like you know, just trying and putting yourself out, doing whatever you want to whatever you aspire to, and then eventually, you know, things will work for you. 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:34.320 I want to share a different perspective that I think is more uh like uh it happens more in Europe where people are much, especially in like you know, this so I'm like somewhere between like uh mid and eastern Europe, right? 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:54.400 So let's say I have this Eastern European perspective of people being more passive, less entrepreneurially uh entrepreneurial, and there is like I have a couple friends uh that have been really, really passive with their careers and with their work. 00:52:54.559 --> 00:53:03.199 And they have stayed as like you know, some some crazy like I know a guy from college, he stayed at the same job for 15 years now. 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:08.480 15 years, like it's like it's not like 1950s anymore. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:14.559 Like you change a job at like five every five years, even

if you're like you know the most like lazy guy, right? 00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:16.719 This guy stayed at the job 15 years. 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:21.599 He was like his job, he was complaining constantly, right? 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:32.239 Last year we talked and he became a partner at his company, and uh he now he he's now a business owner, uh partially, right? 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:36.559 In uh in a really favorable uh position. 00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:46.639 And that is something that I don't even know how to like put into like word what's going on there is like pure luck. 00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:51.440 Uh uh because like I can't find any like concept that would explain it. 00:53:51.599 --> 00:54:15.199 And I have like just recently I've had two similar scenarios, every both happened in the last year, where people have like seemed relatively inert and like maybe even lazy in throughout the like a lot more than a decade, and are now like successful entrepreneurs, uh, which like they're like in enviable positions, right? 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:18.559 And I um just wanted to share it. 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:36.719 It happens for some reason for some people, um and it's even it even goes against like you know the like the common sense advice like look be proactive, go do stuff and try things and and things will uh happen. 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.639 Apparently, exactly the opposite does happen. 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:42.719 Um so yeah, I just wanted to share. 00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:48.559 We don't, you know, if you if you don't have you know, if you have some principles that can apply it, I'd be glad to hear about it. 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:52.800 I can't, I can't like I don't even know how to explain that. 00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:54.800 Why didn't you yeah, that's interesting. 00:54:55.039 --> 00:55:04.239 It's interesting watching people's life trajectories and career trajectories and how they play out, and it's like, why did that happen the way it did? 00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:08.400 And more importantly, uh, what do I do? 00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:10.639 If if I want that to happen to me, what do I do? 00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:11.679 Exactly. 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.119 Um, I wish we had a lot more time to talk. 00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:17.360 Uh we're just about out of time. 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:21.599 Um, I I hope you're up for uh for some more conversations. 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:29.119 Um, you know, I mentioned sometimes have I have a podcast episode with somebody and we're like instant friends. 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:32.880 Uh at least from my end, I feel like that's the case here. 00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:37.599 Um so I'm I'm really glad uh glad that we could talk and I hope we can talk again. 00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:44.079 Um before we go, is there anything you want to share in terms of links and stuff like that where people can check out what you're up to? 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:52.079 Well, I mean, I think uh I shared uh the most about like the these debate stripe integration gem for Rails. 00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:54.800 It's RailsBilling.com. 00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:57.760 If anyone's interesting, they can check that out. 00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:10.559 Uh in my personal uh website where I uh have a couple links, uh uh a couple blog posts about Async Kruby uh is BrunoSutik.com, s-utic.com. 00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:13.039 So yeah, that's uh that's all for me. 00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:15.119 All right, we'll put that stuff in the show notes. 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.679 And Bruno, thanks so much for coming on the show. 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.320 Yeah, Jason, uh, thanks a lot for having me. 00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:29.360 It was really, really uh pleasurable to uh to be on the show, and I do get a uh I hope we get another opportunity to uh talk sometime again. 00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:30.000 Definitely. 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:30.960 Thank you.