What does it mean to cultivate freedom for future generations? • Autumn Brown + Nicole Diroff의 전체 녹취록

we're in right now. Let's do 75 00:04:31,630 --> 00:04:34,590 something. Well, yeah, I'm not saying don't take 76 00:04:34,590 --> 00:04:37,230 actions. There's certain things we can do to 77 00:04:37,230 --> 00:04:41,070 mitigate. But I think the return to a, different 78 00:04:41,070 --> 00:04:43,470 relationship to the ground, to the earth, will 79 00:04:43,470 --> 00:04:46,070 require a different kind of listening, a different 80 00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:49,150 kind of not doing, of not knowing. In the old 81 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:51,790 language, we are on what we call the via negativa, 82 00:04:51,790 --> 00:04:55,850 the road of not doing. The road of restraint, of 83 00:04:56,170 --> 00:04:59,730 holding back and waiting. I believe I shared with 84 00:04:59,730 --> 00:05:02,930 you and Adrian this term from the Inuit tradition, 85 00:05:02,930 --> 00:05:06,770 kartsuluni. And just for the listeners now, 86 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:10,170 kartsaluni translates quite literally sitting 87 00:05:10,170 --> 00:05:12,850 quietly together in the darkness, waiting 88 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:15,890 expectantly for something creative to burst forth. 89 00:05:16,370 --> 00:05:18,810 And these were the whaling people, and they 90 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:21,530 couldn't go out to hunt until the whale people 91 00:05:21,530 --> 00:05:25,580 gave them a song that says that they are in mutual 92 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:28,940 and reciprocal relationship with one another, that 93 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:31,380 the whale people would be offering a gift of one 94 00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:33,540 of their bodies for the sustenance of the 95 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:36,580 community. But that took them sitting quietly in 96 00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:40,540 the dark, waiting. This is not a white Western 97 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:45,100 tradition. We don't wait. We march forward. We 98 00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:46,060 plunge into it. 99 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:49,340 >> Autumn Brown: We discover. 100 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:53,870 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: We discover and then we claim. So the mode here is 101 00:05:53,870 --> 00:05:54,430 very different. 102 00:05:58,590 --> 00:06:02,550 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Autumn, that conversation was such a gift. Thank 103 00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:06,830 you for bringing me and our listeners into what 104 00:06:06,830 --> 00:06:09,590 felt like a really, like, intimate room with you 105 00:06:09,590 --> 00:06:13,470 and with Frances, so wise, so much to share, 106 00:06:16,030 --> 00:06:18,870 >> Autumn Brown: and such good stuff stories. I mean, one of the 107 00:06:18,870 --> 00:06:22,310 things I really appreciated about Francis in this 108 00:06:22,310 --> 00:06:24,750 conversation and the other time that I spoke with 109 00:06:24,750 --> 00:06:27,910 him, he's one of those teachers who always Has a 110 00:06:27,910 --> 00:06:31,910 story at the ready to really take you as the 111 00:06:31,910 --> 00:06:35,110 listener right into the layer of

depth that he's 112 00:06:35,110 --> 00:06:39,030 trying to speak at and speak to. It's so 113 00:06:39,030 --> 00:06:41,150 compelling to speak with him about his work. 114 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:44,880 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: The best kind of teacher ones with stories. The 115 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,040 place that your conversation ended totally sparked 116 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:49,200 some stories for me. 117 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,340 Thinking about friendship, for spiritual leaders 118 00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:57,810 who are trying to do the thing, to do the best 119 00:06:57,810 --> 00:07:01,010 thing in this climate changed world. I mean, we 120 00:07:01,010 --> 00:07:03,330 don't say that as our mission statement per se, 121 00:07:03,330 --> 00:07:06,850 but like, that is so the work of the BTS Center. 122 00:07:07,330 --> 00:07:10,050 Forming relationships of friendship and 123 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,310 connecting, collegial camaraderie, honesty and 124 00:07:13,310 --> 00:07:16,950 possibility. I feel so privileged to get to 125 00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:20,230 experiment in that realm of work day in and day 126 00:07:20,230 --> 00:07:23,670 out at this organization. I could tell you about a 127 00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:25,990 number of different programs that I think are 128 00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:30,310 trying to engage in that space. But I want to tell 129 00:07:30,310 --> 00:07:33,910 you a little about one program that we offered. We 130 00:07:33,910 --> 00:07:37,670 called it Climate Advocacy and the Sacred Wild. 131 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:41,890 And we purposefully brought together executive 132 00:07:42,130 --> 00:07:47,730 directors or senior leaders of faith and climate 133 00:07:47,730 --> 00:07:51,450 or faith and environment organizations. We 134 00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:57,410 identified about 20 such leaders. Our purpose was 135 00:07:57,890 --> 00:08:01,330 to build intimacy with the natural world, to offer 136 00:08:01,330 --> 00:08:05,540 them spaciousness to have the relationship with 137 00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:09,020 nature and with one another that, ah, is at the 138 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:11,740 root of what they're working on, but often gets 139 00:08:11,740 --> 00:08:15,100 put to the side as there's huge to do lists and 140 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:18,580 people to call on Capitol Hill and so many things. 141 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:22,020 So we brought them to Maine. We partnered with 142 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:24,980 some amazing organizations to invite people and 143 00:08:24,980 --> 00:08:27,620 then with the center for Spirituality and Nature 144 00:08:27,620 --> 00:08:31,550 to help frame our time together. And I want to 145 00:08:31,550 --> 00:08:34,470 share two sort of favorite moments during this 146 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:39,150 retreat. The first one was when we first gathered. 147 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:41,710 So everyone had come from a number of different 148 00:08:41,710 --> 00:08:45,750 places and

taken planes and trains and automobiles 149 00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:49,070 to get to this retreat center. We started by 150 00:08:49,070 --> 00:08:52,790 saying, you are not allowed to start working on a 151 00:08:52,790 --> 00:08:56,190 new project during this retreat because these 152 00:08:56,270 --> 00:08:59,910 folks, many work with one another already or would 153 00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:02,760 be really excited. Ooh, I'm in a room with so and 154 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,400 so and I'd really like to do this or that project 155 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,900 with them. so we said this is meant to be retreat. 156 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:11,220 >> Autumn Brown: This is meant to be immersive. 157 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:15,420 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Totally. Like try and turn that off. And it's 158 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:17,660 hard. It's really hard. You know, you're not 159 00:09:17,660 --> 00:09:20,140 allowed, like this is the boundary. But what does 160 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:22,460 it mean to actually be here, to form relationship 161 00:09:22,460 --> 00:09:25,540 with the natural world and with one another? The 162 00:09:25,540 --> 00:09:28,040 other moment I want to share with you one of the 163 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,680 activities after Dark that the center for 164 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:33,760 Spirituality and Nature led us in was taking 165 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,680 infrared Flashlights and exploring the flower and 166 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:42,120 vegetable garden that was at the retreat center in 167 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,280 the dark. That infrared reveals some things that 168 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,560 our human eyes do not normally see. So many birds 169 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,520 and bugs can see in a whole spectrum of light that 170 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,600 we humans can't see in the. There are some flowers 171 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,440 that have visible runways to the pollen that we 172 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,040 normally can't see, but the bugs and the birds can 173 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,640 see these like infrared, ah, lines being like, 174 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,920 this is where you want to go. Come here. Like big 175 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,800 signs. I wanted to share that moment because your 176 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,720 conversation with Frances was talking about seeing 177 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,080 in the dark. It just came so visibly to mind for 178 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,800 me. These flashlights that offer a new way of 179 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,020 seeing that other creatures are already have. 180 00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:29,220 >> Autumn Brown: Yes. 181 00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:32,620 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: And just the other week, my 11 year old and I, we 182 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:34,820 found that infrared flashlight that had been given 183 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:37,300 out during that retreat. And we went into the 184 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:39,380 woods because we've been learning about mushroom 185 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:43,259 foraging. We heard rumors that like, mushrooms can 186 00:10:43,259 --> 00:10:45,300 sometimes have infrared abilities. 187 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:46,340 >> Autumn Brown: Of course they do. 188 00:10:46,580 --> 00:10:47,700 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Right? Like, why not? 189 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:49,060 >> Autumn Brown: What can't they do? 190 00:10:49,060 --> 00:10:51,540 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Of course they do. We actually did not discover 191 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:54,220 any mushroom infrared capabilities on that outing. 192 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:57,800 But we discovered this first. It was just a glow 193 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,520 as soon as we put the infrared light on it. So 194 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,680 we're back in our woods, captivated by the wonder 195 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,720 of it all. There are things to see in the dark. I 196 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,810 highly recommend an infrared flashlight. 197 00:11:09,810 --> 00:11:11,210 >> Autumn Brown: I know, I'm like that. 198 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:11,769 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: I. 199 00:11:11,770 --> 00:11:14,370 >> Autumn Brown: You're blowing my mind right now with this 200 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:17,970 infrared flashlight detail. I have to say, I so 201 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:22,200 appreciate the story of this retreat. It 202 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,360 highlights two of the things that I was really 203 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,160 thinking about after the conversation with Frances 204 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,480 Weller. One being the time that it actually takes 205 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,610 to deepen, into enough intimacy together to really 206 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:37,730 be able to open. Yep, yeah. The space of the 207 00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:41,290 retreat. Retreats create the space and create the 208 00:11:41,290 --> 00:11:43,490 amount of time and togetherness that is actually 209 00:11:43,490 --> 00:11:44,050 needed. 210 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:47,620 And then this piece around love leadership. I'm 211 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:50,900 thinking about the boundary that you all set of no 212 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:55,220 projects, no making new work, and how leadership 213 00:11:55,220 --> 00:11:59,820 in our society is so often seen as generating new 214 00:11:59,820 --> 00:12:03,810 ideas, generating projects, initiating things. I'm 215 00:12:03,810 --> 00:12:07,340 m thinking about that juxtaposed with the kind of 216 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:10,140 call that I heard inside of the conversation with 217 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:12,300 Francis that the thing that we are actually 218 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:17,320 needing to do is cultivate mature adults. So I'm 219 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,640 thinking now about leadership as spiritual 220 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,920 maturation instead of leadership as initiation. 221 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Not initiation in the spiritual sense, but 222

00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,000 initiation like initiating work, doing work, doing 223 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,960 things in the world. And I just really appreciate 224 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,760 that by setting a boundary like that with your 225 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,520 folks that are coming into the space of the 226 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,000 retreat, you're actually inviting them into a 227 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,800 different kind of spiritual maturation or a 228 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,560 different kind of maturation around their own 229 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:46,020 leadership that isn't about how do you make 230 00:12:46,020 --> 00:12:47,220 something out of this experience. 231 00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:52,300 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yep. Our work has been really informed by Margaret 232 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:56,180 Wheatley and her book who do we choose to be. 233 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:57,060 >> Autumn Brown: Yeah. 234 00:12:57,380 --> 00:13:00,660 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: In which she is talking about a concept that's in 235 00:13:00,660 --> 00:13:03,860 many spaces for her warriors of the human spirit. 236 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:07,980 It's about being, not about doing and the 237 00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:11,140 discernment of what's really happening right now. 238 00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:15,040 And who do we choose to be in these times? So that 239 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,880 retreat for senior leaders was about who are you 240 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,320 choosing to be? And having that flow from an 241 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,280 intimacy of relationship with fellow leaders and 242 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,400 with the natural world as they got to experience 243 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,760 it and less from all the doing. Like that the 244 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,440 doing flows from the being well. 245 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,080 >> Autumn Brown: And it sits right in relationship to this skill 246 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,520 set that Francis was talking about us needing to 247 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,540 cultivate the skill set of being and the restraint 248 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:47,500 of just being present, expectantly waiting. 249 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:48,060 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 250 00:13:48,380 --> 00:13:50,860 >> Autumn Brown: I mean, I have to say this is an aside, but one of 251 00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:52,540 the things that I've really appreciated about 252 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:56,860 speaking with him as older white man, he is doing 253 00:13:56,860 --> 00:13:59,940 something that I think a lot of white people are 254 00:13:59,940 --> 00:14:02,460 really afraid to do right now, which is 255 00:14:02,620 --> 00:14:05,860 intentionally drawing on multiple wisdom 256 00:14:05,860 --> 00:14:08,060 traditions, including indigenous wisdom 257 00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:11,040 traditions. I'm m putting that work that he's 258 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,640 doing where he's not claiming the ideas as his 259 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,560 ideas, but just claiming them as like, this is 260 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,400 wisdom for all people to be with and experience. 261 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,400 And I'm putting that in relationship to Norma 262 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,421 Wong's invitation to, us to really think 263 00:14:26,421 --> 00:14:29,581 differently about indigeneity as a way of being. 264 00:14:29,981 --> 00:14:32,421 We all have access to and all need to have access 265 00:14:32,421 --> 00:14:35,141 to. And I think that begins with receiving the 266 00:14:35,141 --> 00:14:37,101 wisdom teachings unapologetically. 267 00:14:37,691 --> 00:14:40,691 So I just wanted to name that in presence it in 268 00:14:40,691 --> 00:14:43,581 this conversation that to me, it is actually a 269 00:14:43,581 --> 00:14:46,341 responsibility as we're moving through this long 270 00:14:46,341 --> 00:14:49,341 dark period. You have a responsibility to figure 271 00:14:49,341 --> 00:14:52,501 out how to receive the wisdom traditions that are 272 00:14:52,501 --> 00:14:55,181 most applicable to this time, which might not be 273 00:14:55,181 --> 00:14:57,301 the wisdom tradition that you were raised inside 274 00:14:57,301 --> 00:15:00,581 of. I think I just wanted to presence that before 275 00:15:00,581 --> 00:15:03,141 we go into any further talking about him, because 276 00:15:03,141 --> 00:15:05,061 I imagine that that's a complexity that some of 277 00:15:05,061 --> 00:15:07,751 our listeners might be holding is like this white 278 00:15:07,751 --> 00:15:09,831 guy who's referencing Inuit. 279 00:15:10,071 --> 00:15:14,471 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. This question of how we relate to wisdoms 280 00:15:14,471 --> 00:15:18,271 that are not of our ancestors, not of our 281 00:15:18,271 --> 00:15:19,671 tradition, direct lineage. 282 00:15:19,671 --> 00:15:20,071 >> Autumn Brown: Right. 283 00:15:20,231 --> 00:15:20,711 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 284 00:15:20,871 --> 00:15:24,631 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Or even our adopted and practiced traditions 285 00:15:25,111 --> 00:15:27,991 becoming part of a particular faith community and 286 00:15:28,071 --> 00:15:31,311 learning and adopting those practices, I think is 287 00:15:31,311 --> 00:15:34,491 really something that's worth being in 288 00:15:34,491 --> 00:15:37,371 relationship with intention. Bringing our best 289 00:15:37,371 --> 00:15:41,451 selves to how we relate to those wisdoms. We 290 00:15:41,851 --> 00:15:44,811 engaged with a book called Life After Doom, 291 00:15:44,891 --> 00:15:49,211 written by Brian McLaren. As a white male, he 292 00:15:49,211 --> 00:15:53,731 draws on wisdom of indigenous traditions. He is 293 00:15:53,731 --> 00:15:56,531 speaking as a Christian leader. He says, we 294 00:15:56,531 --> 00:15:59,891 Christians, we Christian leaders, seeing this 295 00:15:59,891 --> 00:16:02,891 wisdom and how needed it is for this particular 296 00:16:03,051 --> 00:16:07,441 moment,

are now invited to scrap all our old 297 00:16:07,441 --> 00:16:10,201 readings of the Bible, acknowledge that they were 298 00:16:10,201 --> 00:16:14,521 impacted severely by Empire, and bring completely 299 00:16:14,521 --> 00:16:19,361 fresh eyes to our own texts. Understanding them as 300 00:16:19,921 --> 00:16:22,161 indigenous and ecological texts. 301 00:16:22,721 --> 00:16:23,841 >> Autumn Brown: Ooh, yeah. 302 00:16:24,241 --> 00:16:27,281 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: That is a challenge I have been trying to live 303 00:16:27,281 --> 00:16:31,541 into ever since I received that invitation. It is 304 00:16:31,541 --> 00:16:35,621 this question of receiving wisdom and unpacking 305 00:16:35,621 --> 00:16:38,301 wisdom within your own community. I don't know. 306 00:16:38,301 --> 00:16:41,101 That balance of using I language but also being 307 00:16:41,101 --> 00:16:43,901 appreciative of what others bring. I don't know. 308 00:16:43,901 --> 00:16:46,861 You have been in this work of diversity for a long 309 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,741 time and it's an art form. I don't know what else 310 00:16:49,741 --> 00:16:51,181 to call it. It's a dance. 311 00:16:51,581 --> 00:16:56,221 >> Autumn Brown: Well, it feels very related to how are we becoming 312 00:16:56,301 --> 00:17:00,141 human again? Colonization has pushed us so far 313 00:17:00,381 --> 00:17:05,501 into the realm of separation that we really 314 00:17:05,501 --> 00:17:07,981 believe that these categories are real. 315 00:17:08,621 --> 00:17:11,421 As you know, I recently finished writing this book 316 00:17:11,421 --> 00:17:16,701 on fugitive practice, a part of what motivated me 317 00:17:16,941 --> 00:17:19,941 to develop this body of work. And I want to, you 318 00:17:19,941 --> 00:17:22,021 know, again, naming lineage. I want to be really 319 00:17:22,021 --> 00:17:24,661 clear. I didn't come up with the idea of fugitive 320 00:17:24,661 --> 00:17:27,931 practice. I'm simply writing inside of a lineage 321 00:17:27,931 --> 00:17:30,971 of black liberation, black liberatory practice, 322 00:17:30,971 --> 00:17:33,421 black feminist practice in particular. I'm writing 323 00:17:33,421 --> 00:17:35,501 in a lineage that includes many, many black 324 00:17:35,501 --> 00:17:38,901 feminist thinkers and spiritual leaders before me 325 00:17:38,901 --> 00:17:42,181 who've also taken up this. And I would say it's 326 00:17:42,181 --> 00:17:45,581 beyond an identity, but really taken on the shape, 327 00:17:45,581 --> 00:17:48,781 the embodied shape of the fugitive, to say, what 328 00:17:48,781 --> 00:17:51,731 do we have to learn from this shape? The shape of 329 00:17:51,731 --> 00:17:54,491 the fugitive. Right. What is a fugitive? A 330 00:17:54,491 --> 00:17:56,411 fugitive is someone who has escaped from a place 331 00:17:56,411 --> 00:17:59,681 and is in hiding. And if we think about fugitivity 332 00:17:59,681 --> 00:18:03,401 as a spiritual and political practice, it's about 333 00:18:03,481 --> 00:18:08,441 saying, I am going to make myself fugitive from 334 00:18:08,441 --> 00:18:11,881 these supremacy systems of separation and 335 00:18:11,881 --> 00:18:15,041 categorization and individualism. And for me, part 336 00:18:15,041 --> 00:18:18,861 of where that begins is by recognizing if I 337 00:18:18,941 --> 00:18:21,621 genuinely say I do not subscribe to white 338 00:18:21,621 --> 00:18:24,301 supremacy as an organizing system of my life, 339 00:18:25,101 --> 00:18:27,781 there's so much about the way that supremacy 340 00:18:27,781 --> 00:18:30,021 system has organized my life that I have to be 341 00:18:30,021 --> 00:18:32,621 willing to let go of, including the parts of it 342 00:18:32,621 --> 00:18:36,381 that if I align myself with Them. It makes me feel 343 00:18:36,381 --> 00:18:41,381 safer. Right. Like the categories. My specific is 344 00:18:41,381 --> 00:18:43,741 this, which I think you will love, and maybe some 345 00:18:43,741 --> 00:18:46,151 of our listeners will love too. But I went through 346 00:18:46,151 --> 00:18:49,271 a real reversal in my relationship with white 347 00:18:49,271 --> 00:18:52,391 women in particular. White, people, but white 348 00:18:52,391 --> 00:18:55,271 women in particular. Where I started to realize 349 00:18:56,071 --> 00:18:58,711 that if I was in a conversation with a white woman 350 00:18:58,711 --> 00:19:03,831 and she was about to violate my boundaries, there 351 00:19:03,831 --> 00:19:06,151 was, like, a particular thing that would happen 352 00:19:06,311 --> 00:19:10,271 where her eyes would dilate. Over the course of a 353 00:19:10,271 --> 00:19:13,571 bunch of years, I started to see it. And then once 354 00:19:13,571 --> 00:19:15,931 I started to see it, I would realize I can see it 355 00:19:15,931 --> 00:19:16,251 coming. 356 00:19:16,261 --> 00:19:18,161 >> Autumn Brown: When a white woman is about to try to kind of 357 00:19:18,161 --> 00:19:21,721 like, inappropriately merge with me and violate my 358 00:19:21,721 --> 00:19:24,921 boundaries by doing a white woman thing, almost 359 00:19:25,001 --> 00:19:27,760 always, inevitably, eyes will dilate because 360 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,111 there's a level of dissociation that happens, in 361 00:19:30,111 --> 00:19:33,431 the moment of the attempted merge. Once I realized 362 00:19:33,431 --> 00:19:36,551 that I could see it coming, it reversed my sense 363 00:19:36,551 --> 00:19:40,081 of responsibility for what happened next. So 364 00:19:40,081 --> 00:19:43,041 instead of orienting as like, I can't believe this 365 00:19:43,041 --> 00:19:45,561 person is doing this to me, I started to have a 366 00:19:45,561 --> 00:19:48,601 sense of, I'm the more grounded person in the m. 367 00:19:48,601 --> 00:19:50,841 Experience. I'm the one who actually knows what's 368 00:19:50,841 --> 00:19:52,481 happening. Which means I have a different 369 00:19:52,481 --> 00:19:56,401 responsibility for how to respond, how to

relate, 370 00:19:56,641 --> 00:19:59,681 what boundary to have, how to assert my boundary, 371 00:19:59,681 --> 00:20:01,841 how to be really, really clear and firm and not 372 00:20:01,841 --> 00:20:05,441 participate in the merging. I kid you not, Nicole. 373 00:20:05,441 --> 00:20:08,001 It fundamentally changed the way I relate to white 374 00:20:08,001 --> 00:20:10,881 people. so now I. I've gone through this psychic 375 00:20:10,881 --> 00:20:13,921 shift where I don't enter into interactions or 376 00:20:13,921 --> 00:20:16,801 conversations with white people cowering in 377 00:20:16,801 --> 00:20:19,841 advance or feeling that they have power over me or 378 00:20:19,841 --> 00:20:22,121 fearing, awaiting. 379 00:20:22,121 --> 00:20:24,361 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Just like, waiting for something to. 380 00:20:24,521 --> 00:20:25,081 >> Autumn Brown: To happen. 381 00:20:25,321 --> 00:20:25,801 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 382 00:20:26,601 --> 00:20:30,041 >> Autumn Brown: Part of that is because I know what to do, and I 383 00:20:30,041 --> 00:20:33,801 know that I. I will do what is needed in the 384 00:20:33,801 --> 00:20:35,641 inevitable moment where something does happen. 385 00:20:36,111 --> 00:20:39,491 Right. Because it's not an if, it's a when. but, 386 00:20:39,441 --> 00:20:42,351 what I've done is been able to reclaim my agency 387 00:20:42,351 --> 00:20:46,271 over my body and my embodied experience of the 388 00:20:46,271 --> 00:20:49,391 moment, rather than feeling taken under or taken 389 00:20:49,471 --> 00:20:53,551 out by someone else's dissociated behavior. For 390 00:20:53,551 --> 00:20:56,791 me, that is fugitive practice. It's about saying 391 00:20:56,791 --> 00:21:00,191 that I, will not let the system claim me by 392 00:21:00,191 --> 00:21:02,871 participating the way that I'm expected to 393 00:21:02,871 --> 00:21:05,231 participate, which is to sort of cower and then 394 00:21:05,231 --> 00:21:06,951 allow whatever's going to happen to happen until 395 00:21:06,951 --> 00:21:11,451 it's over. Instead, I'm just like, oh, no. If I 396 00:21:11,451 --> 00:21:14,131 see it coming, I'll just say, I'm not available 397 00:21:14,131 --> 00:21:16,731 for this conversation. You know, as simple as 398 00:21:16,731 --> 00:21:18,771 that. No apology, no explanation. 399 00:21:20,211 --> 00:21:25,011 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Now, fugitivity. Tell me more about the hiding 400 00:21:25,251 --> 00:21:28,291 piece of that. Because hiding feels disempowered 401 00:21:28,531 --> 00:21:29,891 when I think of that word. 402 00:21:30,241 --> 00:21:32,901 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: M. But what you just described was not 403 00:21:32,901 --> 00:21:33,661 disempowered. 404 00:21:34,121 --> 00:21:37,321 >> Autumn Brown: I invite people always, to begin with, imagining 405 00:21:37,481 --> 00:21:41,041 someone who has made themself fugitive in the 406 00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:42,281 context of enslavement. 407 00:21:42,601 --> 00:21:43,081 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 408 00:21:43,641 --> 00:21:47,401 >> Autumn Brown: So if you think about the context of enslavement 409 00:21:47,401 --> 00:21:51,481 and the mechanics of the plantation, the fugitive 410 00:21:51,801 --> 00:21:55,561 is someone who, against all odds and despite all 411 00:21:55,561 --> 00:21:59,921 evidence to the contrary, has to say, I don't 412 00:21:59,921 --> 00:22:06,431 belong here. I belong out there. I am free. And 413 00:22:06,511 --> 00:22:09,831 I'm courageously and maybe desperately releasing 414 00:22:09,831 --> 00:22:12,351 the shackles that say that I'm a not free person. 415 00:22:12,751 --> 00:22:15,431 And I'm exiting into the wilderness, into the 416 00:22:15,431 --> 00:22:19,711 darkness, trusting that there is a version of me 417 00:22:19,711 --> 00:22:22,191 that I get to step into. Even if it's for a short 418 00:22:22,191 --> 00:22:24,511 period of time. There is a version of me that I 419 00:22:24,511 --> 00:22:27,631 get to step into that is the freest version of 420 00:22:27,631 --> 00:22:32,151 myself. In order to do that, I have to make myself 421 00:22:32,311 --> 00:22:36,671 invisible to supremacy. So it's hiding in the 422 00:22:36,671 --> 00:22:40,111 sense of I'm removing my body. Uh-huh. Under 423 00:22:40,111 --> 00:22:42,231 conditions of enslavement, people who were 424 00:22:42,231 --> 00:22:45,311 enslaved were property. Right. So the act of theft 425 00:22:45,311 --> 00:22:48,991 is that they're stealing themselves away from the 426 00:22:48,991 --> 00:22:51,431 system. Right. They're stealing their own body. 427 00:22:51,751 --> 00:22:55,151 And so there is an element of hiding and 428 00:22:55,151 --> 00:22:57,641 secretiveness and moving in darkness that, is a 429 00:22:57,641 --> 00:23:00,611 part of what the fugitive has to do because of 430 00:23:00,611 --> 00:23:01,891 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: the systems that they're in. 431 00:23:02,451 --> 00:23:06,651 >> Autumn Brown: Yes, yes. And so of course now it is and isn't a 432 00:23:06,651 --> 00:23:09,451 metaphor. Right. We still are living under pretty 433 00:23:09,451 --> 00:23:11,971 extraordinary supremacy systems. We still have 434 00:23:11,971 --> 00:23:15,411 people who are being, I mean, right now, kidnapped 435 00:23:15,411 --> 00:23:18,291 off the streets and enslaved and locked up and all 436 00:23:18,291 --> 00:23:20,131 the things, like all these things are happening. 437 00:23:20,291 --> 00:23:22,731 Part of what that means is that unlike a couple 438 00:23:22,731 --> 00:23:25,451 hundred years ago, it's not like there is a safer 439 00:23:25,451 --> 00:23:28,411 place to geographically go to right now without 440 00:23:28,411 --> 00:23:31,031 leaving the country. But even that presents its 441 00:23:31,031 --> 00:23:35,351 own significant security concerns. And so to me, 442 00:23:35,511 --> 00:23:38,791 it's the practice of fugitivity now is about 443 00:23:38,871 --> 00:23:41,911 practicing the freest version of

myself in this 444 00:23:41,991 --> 00:23:45,911 context, having a felt experience that regardless 445 00:23:45,911 --> 00:23:49,741 of the conditions, I am a free person. This 446 00:23:49,741 --> 00:23:53,061 relates to both the wisdom that we heard from 447 00:23:53,221 --> 00:23:55,861 Francis Weller and similarly the wisdom we heard 448 00:23:55,861 --> 00:23:58,481 from Norma Wong. This thing that you lifted up 449 00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:00,851 about the being versus doing. Yeah. we often think 450 00:24:00,851 --> 00:24:02,771 about freedom as something that we do. 451 00:24:03,171 --> 00:24:03,491 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Right. 452 00:24:03,491 --> 00:24:05,571 >> Autumn Brown: But actually freedom is something that we are. 453 00:24:06,291 --> 00:24:06,771 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Nice. 454 00:24:07,091 --> 00:24:10,131 >> Autumn Brown: It requires practice to remember that to Remember 455 00:24:10,131 --> 00:24:13,291 that we actually are free, even inside of a 456 00:24:13,291 --> 00:24:15,011 context that says that we're not free. 457 00:24:15,011 --> 00:24:21,331 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It speaks so much to the soul 458 00:24:22,211 --> 00:24:22,611 >> Autumn Brown: work, 459 00:24:24,771 --> 00:24:29,701 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: the soul work that we have in these times in this 460 00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:32,141 climate changed world, this kind of context that 461 00:24:32,141 --> 00:24:36,661 we keep coming back to in this podcast. Climate 462 00:24:36,661 --> 00:24:40,341 changed world is so external and it's getting 463 00:24:40,341 --> 00:24:43,621 faster. You know, I mean, you talked about pace of 464 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:47,941 change with Frances and it can be so distractive 465 00:24:47,941 --> 00:24:52,941 and overwhelming. So to claim within that a sense 466 00:24:52,941 --> 00:24:57,301 of my soul, my heart is mine, and I get to choose 467 00:24:57,461 --> 00:25:01,461 how I meet. This moment is really powerful. 468 00:25:10,421 --> 00:25:13,101 >> Autumn Brown: You're tuned in to climate change. After the 469 00:25:13,101 --> 00:25:14,501 break, we'll hear more. 470 00:25:19,311 --> 00:25:19,631 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Foreign. 471 00:25:25,711 --> 00:25:29,471 >> Autumn Brown: You're hearing a lot today about holding space for 472 00:25:29,471 --> 00:25:32,511 what hurts. If you want a place to do that in 473 00:25:32,511 --> 00:25:36,671 community, explore Lament with Earth. A year of 474 00:25:36,671 --> 00:25:40,671 online gatherings, weaving music, ritual and 475 00:25:40,671 --> 00:25:45,121 collective lament. It's gentle grounding and open 476 00:25:45,121 --> 00:25:45,721 to all. 477 00:25:46,281 --> 00:25:49,361 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Learn more and join the next gathering at the 478 00:25:49,361 --> 00:25:58,881 btscenter.org lamentwithearth. If you're newer to 479 00:25:58,881 --> 00:26:01,641 this show, I want to invite you to spend some time 480 00:26:01,641 --> 00:26:04,961 with our first season. Those conversations explore 481 00:26:04,961 --> 00:26:08,401 what it means to lead with spiritual courage in a 482 00:26:08,401 --> 00:26:10,521 world shaped by climate disruption. 483 00:26:10,981 --> 00:26:13,221 >> Autumn Brown: You'll find a rich archive of conversations. 484 00:26:13,701 --> 00:26:17,861 Chaplains, cultural workers, theologians, poets, 485 00:26:18,421 --> 00:26:22,061 each one offering something steadying and deeply 486 00:26:22,061 --> 00:26:24,631 human. Explore previous seasons@, 487 00:26:24,581 --> 00:26:28,711 climatechangepodcast.org hi there, 488 00:26:28,711 --> 00:26:35,831 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: it's Ophelia from the BTS Center. Did you know 489 00:26:35,831 --> 00:26:37,631 that our team puts together show notes and 490 00:26:37,631 --> 00:26:40,271 discussion questions for you for every episode? 491 00:26:41,271 --> 00:26:43,591 Climate Changed is for you and your spiritual 492 00:26:43,591 --> 00:26:43,911 community. 493 00:26:45,191 --> 00:26:47,991 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: You can find all this and more online at, climate 494 00:26:47,991 --> 00:26:51,551 changed podcast.org now 495 00:26:51,631 --> 00:26:52,511 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: back to the show. 496 00:27:06,361 --> 00:27:09,801 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: I wonder, as you've been hosting this season of 497 00:27:09,801 --> 00:27:15,641 climate Change, how your exploration of fugitivity 498 00:27:15,961 --> 00:27:19,561 informed the questions you were asking. Do you 499 00:27:19,561 --> 00:27:22,280 feel like the things you wanted to probe about 500 00:27:22,361 --> 00:27:25,481 were impacted by just that deep thinking and 501 00:27:25,481 --> 00:27:28,841 writing and becoming public on all these pieces? 502 00:27:30,041 --> 00:27:32,881 >> Autumn Brown: Certainly, I would say fugitivity absolutely 503 00:27:32,881 --> 00:27:34,961 informed probably all of the questions that I 504 00:27:34,961 --> 00:27:36,031 asked all of our guests. 505 00:27:36,031 --> 00:27:36,101 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: But. 506 00:27:36,491 --> 00:27:39,731 >> Autumn Brown: But certainly with Frances, through my own work, 507 00:27:39,731 --> 00:27:42,571 I've been really touching into the importance of 508 00:27:42,731 --> 00:27:48,451 ritual and the need for creating new rituals as a 509 00:27:48,451 --> 00:27:53,851 part of formulating new ways of thinking and being 510 00:27:54,091 --> 00:27:57,731 together. A way that reifies or reinforces the 511 00:27:57,731 --> 00:28:00,021 idea that we're free. Yeah, I started to notice 512 00:28:00,021 --> 00:28:02,021 that over the years, especially in my political 513 00:28:02,021 --> 00:28:04,631 work. For years I worked with community 514 00:28:04,791 --> 00:28:07,231 organizations who were working on the front lines 515 00:28:07,231 --> 00:28:09,711 of some of the most critical issues of the time 516 00:28:09,711 --> 00:28:12,951 that we're living through. But the internal 517 00:28:13,111 --> 00:28:15,911 realities of these organizations and

the internal 518 00:28:15,911 --> 00:28:18,311 realities of the people who were inside of them 519 00:28:18,311 --> 00:28:22,591 was so full of pain. So much pain, so much 520 00:28:22,591 --> 00:28:26,151 anguish, so much reinforcing and repetition of the 521 00:28:26,151 --> 00:28:29,401 harm that everyone is fighting. I was always being 522 00:28:29,401 --> 00:28:32,121 called in to work with organizations where the 523 00:28:32,121 --> 00:28:34,201 exact dynamics that everyone was fighting 524 00:28:34,201 --> 00:28:36,641 externally were the things that were playing out 525 00:28:36,641 --> 00:28:37,201 internally. 526 00:28:37,201 --> 00:28:37,681 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Wow. 527 00:28:37,921 --> 00:28:41,161 >> Autumn Brown: And it's because the organizational shape, both 528 00:28:41,161 --> 00:28:43,921 logistically but also spiritually, was mirroring 529 00:28:44,001 --> 00:28:46,121 the external conditions, the institutional 530 00:28:46,121 --> 00:28:46,561 conditions. 531 00:28:46,801 --> 00:28:49,601 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: This happens in churches all the time, right? 532 00:28:49,761 --> 00:28:50,521 >> Autumn Brown: All the time. 533 00:28:50,521 --> 00:28:52,681 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: This is church. Everybody should be righteous and 534 00:28:52,681 --> 00:28:55,041 there should be no conflict. And, like, weren't we 535 00:28:55,041 --> 00:28:57,681 actually. This is just another organization in our 536 00:28:57,681 --> 00:28:59,591 world, Right, Right. 537 00:28:59,591 --> 00:29:01,871 >> Autumn Brown: I mean, so much of it does come down to how we do 538 00:29:01,871 --> 00:29:04,351 conflict. Right. There's that. That in and of 539 00:29:04,351 --> 00:29:07,951 itself, the idea that somehow having values, 540 00:29:07,951 --> 00:29:10,191 alignment would result in there being no friction 541 00:29:10,191 --> 00:29:12,831 and nothing to decide of. So weird. But that's 542 00:29:12,831 --> 00:29:16,071 also an expression of separation and the 543 00:29:16,071 --> 00:29:18,631 homogeneity that is trying to be enforced by these 544 00:29:18,631 --> 00:29:21,631 institutions of supremacy. The idea that if you 545 00:29:21,631 --> 00:29:24,551 all just behave in alignment with the categories, 546 00:29:24,551 --> 00:29:26,431 then there will be no friction because everything 547 00:29:26,431 --> 00:29:29,091 will be working. And then folks inevitably find 548 00:29:29,091 --> 00:29:31,371 themselves in the actual mess of human life, and 549 00:29:31,371 --> 00:29:33,051 then they feel they're not equipped. 550 00:29:33,291 --> 00:29:34,091 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: They're not equipped. 551 00:29:34,491 --> 00:29:37,611 >> Autumn Brown: And so I started to notice in my own work, first 552 00:29:37,611 --> 00:29:39,811 it was just bringing attention to, like, what are 553 00:29:39,811 --> 00:29:41,971 the rituals and ceremonies that y' all are engaged 554 00:29:41,971 --> 00:29:43,691 in that you don't even realize that you're engaged 555 00:29:43,691 --> 00:29:45,411 in? You know what I mean? Because you're. 556 00:29:45,411 --> 00:29:48,651 Everyone's engaged in ritual and ceremony. It's 557 00:29:48,651 --> 00:29:50,891 unintentional. It's not thoughtful, it's not 558 00:29:50,891 --> 00:29:53,981 intentional. It's rituals of berating m. 559 00:29:54,701 --> 00:29:57,581 Ceremonies of harm. Right. That's what a lot of 560 00:29:57,581 --> 00:29:59,461 people are engaged in. And so first it was just 561 00:29:59,461 --> 00:30:01,141 bringing attention to that of, like, what are we 562 00:30:01,141 --> 00:30:04,061 ceremonializing here? And then saying, can we 563 00:30:04,221 --> 00:30:07,261 create new and different ceremonies? Can we create 564 00:30:07,341 --> 00:30:10,181 different rituals that actually give us a sense 565 00:30:10,181 --> 00:30:12,941 that we are in real community with one another? 566 00:30:13,501 --> 00:30:15,821 And so that being something that I was already 567 00:30:15,901 --> 00:30:18,701 really wrestling with meant that when I was coming 568 00:30:18,701 --> 00:30:20,941 into this conversation with Frances in particular, 569 00:30:21,181 --> 00:30:24,041 I'm like, this is someone who has spent decades 570 00:30:24,041 --> 00:30:27,561 trying to figure out how to support people in a US 571 00:30:27,641 --> 00:30:31,601 Context to, as he named it, to re. Engage with the 572 00:30:31,601 --> 00:30:34,441 primal matrix, like, the thing that we are 573 00:30:34,441 --> 00:30:37,321 actually primed to experience and are not getting 574 00:30:37,321 --> 00:30:41,041 to experience in our society. It feels almost like 575 00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:44,241 an overwhelming level of problem. We think of 576 00:30:44,241 --> 00:30:46,521 climate change as the overwhelming problem, but to 577 00:30:46,521 --> 00:30:49,521 Me, the symptom problem. That feels overwhelming. 578 00:30:49,521 --> 00:30:53,041 Exactly. And I appreciated that Francis named it 579 00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:55,481 as something that we first and foremost need to 580 00:30:55,481 --> 00:30:58,841 grieve. Yes. This is part of the long dark is 581 00:30:58,841 --> 00:31:02,281 being in this time period, these generations, 582 00:31:02,361 --> 00:31:05,801 where there has been years of absence of ritual. 583 00:31:06,121 --> 00:31:06,681 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 584 00:31:07,241 --> 00:31:10,001 >> Autumn Brown: That's part of how we got here. And ritual is part 585 00:31:10,001 --> 00:31:11,321 of how we find our way out. 586 00:31:11,561 --> 00:31:12,041 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. 587 00:31:12,121 --> 00:31:16,601 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: The grief piece is so powerful. And the long time 588 00:31:16,601 --> 00:31:19,631 ness of, of proclaiming this moment as the long 589 00:31:19,631 --> 00:31:23,431 dark, engaging with what you described as so 590 00:31:23,431 --> 00:31:27,911 overwhelming that it feels like I can't make a 591 00:31:27,911 --> 00:31:31,191 difference on this. And so saying, you

know what? 592 00:31:31,191 --> 00:31:35,471 This is a generations long situation that we are 593 00:31:35,471 --> 00:31:38,911 in. We have a moment that we are blessed with to 594 00:31:38,911 --> 00:31:42,151 be alive. What we're working on, we're not gonna 595 00:31:42,151 --> 00:31:44,201 see the end of the. Accepting that at the 596 00:31:44,201 --> 00:31:48,441 beginning allows us to continue to choose who 597 00:31:48,441 --> 00:31:52,161 we're gonna be in these times that may be long and 598 00:31:52,161 --> 00:31:53,041 maybe dark. 599 00:31:54,081 --> 00:31:56,801 >> Autumn Brown: To me, that is one of the gifts of the fugitive 600 00:31:56,801 --> 00:32:00,641 orientation is placing yourself in a much longer 601 00:32:00,641 --> 00:32:03,401 timeline and understanding that you're not working 602 00:32:03,401 --> 00:32:06,201 on behalf of your own freedom. You're working on 603 00:32:06,201 --> 00:32:08,671 behalf of a, future freedom of a future generation 604 00:32:08,671 --> 00:32:11,711 that you likely won't necessarily have contact 605 00:32:11,711 --> 00:32:13,631 with in the same timeline that you're currently 606 00:32:13,631 --> 00:32:16,691 in. But that doesn't mean that your work is any 607 00:32:16,691 --> 00:32:19,651 less important or meaningful. You are part of a 608 00:32:19,651 --> 00:32:22,851 much bigger story of freedom. And what a blessing 609 00:32:23,251 --> 00:32:25,771 to me, it's been actually so freeing to not think 610 00:32:25,771 --> 00:32:28,051 of my freedom work as being on my own behalf 611 00:32:28,291 --> 00:32:31,771 because it liberates me into actually doing what I 612 00:32:31,771 --> 00:32:34,731 can do instead of feeling frozen like nothing I do 613 00:32:34,731 --> 00:32:35,251 matters. 614 00:32:35,651 --> 00:32:39,011 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Autumn, I'm so grateful to your willingness to 615 00:32:39,011 --> 00:32:43,291 dive deep with the concept of fugitivity and to 616 00:32:43,371 --> 00:32:46,451 work to put it out to the world in a book format 617 00:32:46,451 --> 00:32:48,331 that I will pick up as soon as it is available. 618 00:32:48,971 --> 00:32:52,011 But to go deep with these concepts, that will be 619 00:32:52,011 --> 00:32:55,731 helpful. And fugitivity is so provocative and 620 00:32:55,731 --> 00:32:57,611 empowering. Yeah. 621 00:32:58,011 --> 00:32:58,531 >> Autumn Brown: Thank you. 622 00:32:58,531 --> 00:32:59,051 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: I'm excited. 623 00:32:59,051 --> 00:32:59,911 >> Autumn Brown: I'm so glad. Yeah. 624 00:32:59,911 --> 00:33:03,211 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Ah, it's been such a gift to have that perspective 625 00:33:03,371 --> 00:33:06,531 with us for this series of episodes in climate 626 00:33:06,531 --> 00:33:06,891 change. 627 00:33:08,131 --> 00:33:10,611 >> Autumn Brown: Well, it's been such a gift for me to get to be a 628 00:33:10,611 --> 00:33:13,651 part of this series and be in conversation with 629 00:33:13,651 --> 00:33:16,931 you and all of our

amazing guests. It's just the 630 00:33:16,931 --> 00:33:19,331 greatest gift. Very much a part of my freedom. 631 00:33:20,211 --> 00:33:21,811 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Beautiful. Love it. 632 00:33:32,051 --> 00:33:35,561 So as we we turn to some next steps which are 633 00:33:35,561 --> 00:33:39,401 important for us in this podcast as we often get 634 00:33:39,481 --> 00:33:42,641 pretty caught up in ideas to make sure that we are 635 00:33:42,641 --> 00:33:46,561 offering some meaningful and achievable next 636 00:33:46,561 --> 00:33:50,961 steps. And I think I might start just inviting you 637 00:33:50,961 --> 00:33:54,201 to consider some of Francis's questions that 638 00:33:54,201 --> 00:33:57,841 surfaced in his conversation with Autumn. What are 639 00:33:57,841 --> 00:34:01,951 the actual hazards in your place? And what gifts 640 00:34:02,031 --> 00:34:05,391 do you and your communities carry that could be 641 00:34:05,391 --> 00:34:09,031 brought to bear when crisis comes? I invite you, 642 00:34:09,031 --> 00:34:11,951 as you think about that, to be both imaginative 643 00:34:11,951 --> 00:34:15,951 and specific. Another question Frances asks just 644 00:34:15,951 --> 00:34:19,991 as importantly, who are your friends? Who are the 645 00:34:19,991 --> 00:34:22,511 people with whom you can practice slowing down, 646 00:34:22,911 --> 00:34:25,351 practice telling the truth, and practice holding 647 00:34:25,351 --> 00:34:26,671 one another in love? 648 00:34:27,811 --> 00:34:31,371 >> Autumn Brown: We also asked Francis to offer a next step that 649 00:34:31,371 --> 00:34:33,811 you can take after hearing this episode. Something 650 00:34:33,891 --> 00:34:37,411 small, grounded and doable in our daily lives. 651 00:34:37,411 --> 00:34:39,411 So let's hear what Francis had to say. 652 00:34:39,811 --> 00:34:41,411 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: So there's three things. There's. There's the 653 00:34:41,411 --> 00:34:44,091 image itself, which is the phenomenon. We have 654 00:34:44,091 --> 00:34:46,851 these dreams. We have daytime images come. Then 655 00:34:46,851 --> 00:34:48,931 there's the imagination, which is the practice of 656 00:34:48,931 --> 00:34:51,851 engagement with the image. And then there's the 657 00:34:51,851 --> 00:34:54,911 imaginal, which is the background humor of the 658 00:34:54,911 --> 00:34:57,791 cosmos. So when you look at most traditional 659 00:34:57,791 --> 00:35:00,751 cultures, like the Aboriginal folks in Australia, 660 00:35:01,391 --> 00:35:04,191 that dreamtime, the imaginal world, is the real 661 00:35:04,191 --> 00:35:08,631 world, and they spend their life attending to that 662 00:35:08,631 --> 00:35:11,471 world through the rituals, the songs, the dances, 663 00:35:11,551 --> 00:35:15,511 the paintings. It's all geared towards sustaining 664 00:35:15,511 --> 00:35:18,311 an intimacy with the imaginal realm, with the 665 00:35:18,311 --> 00:35:21,741 dreamtime. And when that's done, this world stays 666 00:35:21,741 --> 00:35:26,021 green, stays alive, stays fresh. When we abandon 667 00:35:26,021 --> 00:35:29,221 the imaginal, this world corrodes and devolves, 668 00:35:30,111 --> 00:35:32,551 and is diminished. And so we're not paying much 669 00:35:32,551 --> 00:35:35,371 attention to the imaginal anymore. How, do we keep 670 00:35:35,371 --> 00:35:37,451 relating to that energy? Jung said that's the 671 00:35:37,451 --> 00:35:41,011 primary activity of psyche, is image making. So 672 00:35:41,011 --> 00:35:43,011 when we tap into that, we're tapping into this 673 00:35:43,171 --> 00:35:47,621 wellspring of inspiration, idea, creativity. All 674 00:35:47,621 --> 00:35:49,781 of those things can arise up out of the imaginal 675 00:35:49,781 --> 00:35:51,771 ground, out of the. Out of the working with the 676 00:35:51,771 --> 00:35:54,771 imagination. That is what fortifies me almost 677 00:35:54,771 --> 00:35:57,931 every single day. Tapping into that territory and 678 00:35:57,931 --> 00:36:00,451 seeing not only in my nighttime dreams, but 679 00:36:00,531 --> 00:36:03,531 deliberately going into the imaginal realm, which 680 00:36:03,531 --> 00:36:05,531 is what, you know, most traditions would call the 681 00:36:05,531 --> 00:36:08,451 shamanic practices of how do we tap into that, 682 00:36:08,891 --> 00:36:12,221 dreaming time that's always there? And going into 683 00:36:12,221 --> 00:36:14,981 the imagination is a great source of renewal and 684 00:36:14,981 --> 00:36:16,621 support for my work in the world. 685 00:36:17,061 --> 00:36:19,581 >> Autumn Brown: How do you do that, Francis, in your own day to 686 00:36:19,581 --> 00:36:19,861 day? 687 00:36:20,581 --> 00:36:22,861 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Sometimes I just lay on the floor and put a towel 688 00:36:22,861 --> 00:36:26,181 over my eyes. I give myself an opening image, like 689 00:36:26,181 --> 00:36:28,341 sometimes, you know, going down the trunk of a 690 00:36:28,341 --> 00:36:31,841 tree, which is an old shamanic Practice. But then 691 00:36:31,841 --> 00:36:34,921 Jung said, you have to let go and let be. You 692 00:36:34,921 --> 00:36:38,561 can't direct what happens next. You just have to 693 00:36:38,561 --> 00:36:42,281 allow the image to happen. And I can tell you, 694 00:36:42,361 --> 00:36:45,321 I've been shown so many things that my mind could 695 00:36:45,321 --> 00:36:48,521 not figure out. But in the imaginal world, that's 696 00:36:48,521 --> 00:36:51,271 how you reconcile that. Oh, that's how those two 697 00:36:51,271 --> 00:36:53,911 are connected. Oh. That's the resolution of that 698 00:36:53,911 --> 00:36:57,071 trouble, you know. So I would highly encourage 699 00:36:57,071 --> 00:36:59,871 people to cultivate a relationship to that 700 00:36:59,871 --> 00:37:02,551 dimension. So important. So important. And then 701 00:37:02,551 --> 00:37:06,951 rest. Very heretical practice nowadays is to rest. 702 00:37:07,111 --> 00:37:10,831 We push ourselves so

much under the fantasy that 703 00:37:10,831 --> 00:37:13,391 I'm going to somehow figure it out or have the 704 00:37:13,391 --> 00:37:16,781 answer or something, you know. But rest is really 705 00:37:16,941 --> 00:37:19,941 a rebellious activity. There's so much around 706 00:37:19,941 --> 00:37:22,421 resistance in that action of saying, I'm not gonna 707 00:37:22,421 --> 00:37:24,781 participate in the mania of capitalism. 708 00:37:25,101 --> 00:37:25,501 >> Autumn Brown: Right. 709 00:37:25,981 --> 00:37:28,541 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: I'm gonna step out of that and step into again 710 00:37:28,541 --> 00:37:31,701 another state of receptivity and listening. What 711 00:37:31,701 --> 00:37:33,881 is soul saying to me now? not just my own 712 00:37:33,881 --> 00:37:36,001 inflection of that, but what is the soul of the 713 00:37:36,001 --> 00:37:38,721 world saying to us in the symptomology of the 714 00:37:38,721 --> 00:37:42,521 times? You know, decay, breakdown, collapse, these 715 00:37:42,521 --> 00:37:45,911 are not accidental. I think there's intentionality 716 00:37:45,911 --> 00:37:48,751 behind all this. We're being shown that we've 717 00:37:48,751 --> 00:37:51,791 tried to climb as far as we could climb. Kind of 718 00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:54,751 like Icarus. And now we're on the fall, right? 719 00:37:54,751 --> 00:37:58,031 We're in the collapse, Right? There's wisdom in 720 00:37:58,031 --> 00:38:00,951 that move, there's intelligence in that move. And 721 00:38:00,951 --> 00:38:03,031 our job is to learn again how to listen in the 722 00:38:03,031 --> 00:38:03,391 dark. 723 00:38:05,471 --> 00:38:08,231 >> Autumn Brown: As you reflect on Francis's words, we would like 724 00:38:08,231 --> 00:38:17,231 to invite you to consider trying something. Gather 725 00:38:17,311 --> 00:38:20,991 three to five people. Could be friends, neighbors, 726 00:38:21,151 --> 00:38:24,071 or members of your faith community for what we 727 00:38:24,071 --> 00:38:28,231 would call a listening circle. Take an hour, maybe 728 00:38:28,231 --> 00:38:31,351 two. Sit together, turn off your phones, very 729 00:38:31,351 --> 00:38:34,791 important. And simply take turns naming one thing 730 00:38:34,791 --> 00:38:36,951 in your life or in the world that is weighing on 731 00:38:36,951 --> 00:38:42,271 your heart. Allow m space for silence. Especially 732 00:38:42,271 --> 00:38:44,711 when you run out of things to say. You don't need 733 00:38:44,711 --> 00:38:47,671 to solve anything. Just practice being present and 734 00:38:47,751 --> 00:38:51,431 holding one another with attention. Measure it by 735 00:38:51,431 --> 00:38:54,071 whether everybody in the circle has been heard 736 00:38:54,151 --> 00:38:56,711 once. That's your only measure. 737 00:38:57,191 --> 00:39:01,791 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Love that idea. I'll bring in something for any of 738 00:39:01,791 --> 00:39:05,191 you who maybe facilitate or offer leadership in 739 00:39:05,191 --> 00:39:11,171 spaces and have the ability to slow, things down. 740 00:39:11,811 --> 00:39:15,491 I'd invite you to consider two or three minutes of 741 00:39:15,491 --> 00:39:18,531 silence as a tool to be deployed in your 742 00:39:18,771 --> 00:39:22,091 facilitator's toolkit as you come into a meeting 743 00:39:22,091 --> 00:39:24,851 or as you make a transition or even as you're 744 00:39:24,851 --> 00:39:29,451 closing to deploy two or three minutes of shared 745 00:39:29,451 --> 00:39:31,891 quiet. And that's how I usually introduce it. 746 00:39:31,891 --> 00:39:33,891 We're going to spend some time in shared quiet. 747 00:39:34,531 --> 00:39:36,691 Usually when it's wrapping up, I will say 748 00:39:36,691 --> 00:39:38,891 something about how that may have felt short to 749 00:39:38,891 --> 00:39:41,971 you or that may have felt long to you. It's 750 00:39:41,971 --> 00:39:44,371 usually true that different people receive those 751 00:39:44,371 --> 00:39:47,371 couple minutes of shared quiet differently. I know 752 00:39:47,371 --> 00:39:52,011 I am often surprised at actually how long and how 753 00:39:52,011 --> 00:39:55,411 effective two or three minutes can be. 754 00:39:55,971 --> 00:39:59,131 >> Autumn Brown: So true, so true. Two minutes turns out, is a long 755 00:39:59,131 --> 00:40:01,891 time. Thank you Nicole. That's an awesome next 756 00:40:01,891 --> 00:40:02,251 step. 757 00:40:02,881 --> 00:40:03,921 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: M 758 00:40:06,011 --> 00:40:08,651 >> Autumn Brown: and thank you listeners. Thank you for listening 759 00:40:08,651 --> 00:40:12,331 to Climate Change, a podcast from the BTS center, 760 00:40:12,491 --> 00:40:12,811 which 761 00:40:12,811 --> 00:40:15,131 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: is located in beautiful Portland, Maine. 762 00:40:15,610 --> 00:40:18,891 >> Autumn Brown: If this episode is opening your imagination, go 763 00:40:18,891 --> 00:40:21,211 back and listen to season two of Climate Change. 764 00:40:21,531 --> 00:40:24,851 That whole season asks what becomes possible when 765 00:40:24,851 --> 00:40:28,121 communities tap into creativity and imagination as 766 00:40:28,121 --> 00:40:30,621 collaboration climate practice. Visit climate 767 00:40:30,621 --> 00:40:35,261 changepodcast.org Our show is produced by Peterson 768 00:40:35,261 --> 00:40:36,141 Toscano. 769 00:40:36,381 --> 00:40:39,261 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: You can find transcripts, discussion guides, and 770 00:40:39,261 --> 00:40:41,981 now full length video episodes with bonus 771 00:40:41,981 --> 00:40:42,541 material. 772 00:40:43,021 --> 00:40:47,221 >> Autumn Brown: Visit Climate Changed podcast.org Explore more 773 00:40:47,221 --> 00:40:47,501 about 774 00:40:47,501 --> 00:40:51,381 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: our in person and online programs. I would love to 775 00:40:51,381 --> 00:40:53,661 see you at an upcoming program. You can learn 776 00:40:53,661 --> 00:40:57,781 more@the btscenter.org Stay Connected, 777 00:40:59,061 --> 00:41:02,421 >> Autumn Brown: Share this episode and reach out anytime. 778 00:41:02,661 --> 00:41:06,141 Remember, you can email us podcast ah the 779 00:41:06,141 --> 00:41:09,301 btscenter.org we love hearing from you 780 00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:14,821 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: and a blessing as we close this episode. May you 781 00:41:14,821 --> 00:41:19,141 lean into the long dark knowing that you are not 782 00:41:19,141 --> 00:41:24,431 alone. You are part of a community of friends who 783 00:41:24,431 --> 00:41:30,071 care. Together. Let us grieve, let us imagine, for 784 00:41:30,071 --> 00:41:33,711 it is indeed a blessing to be alive right now. 785 00:41:34,751 --> 00:41:35,391 >> Autumn Brown: Amen. 786 00:41:35,551 --> 00:41:36,071 >> Rev Nicole Diroff: Amen. 787 00:41:36,071 --> 00:41:42,361 >> Autumn Brown: Thank you Nicole. Coming up, on the next episode 788 00:41:42,361 --> 00:41:59,051 of Climate Changed, Sam.