Interrupting the Hustle: Spiritual Practices for Clarity and Renewal | Bill Simmons (EP52)의 전체 녹취록

It truly takes thirty seconds or less, but it is so super helpful. 02:09.896 --> 02:10.737 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you, thank you. 02:11.558 --> 02:13.639 [SPEAKER_01]: And with that, let's get into this conversation with Bill. 02:19.486 --> 02:21.429 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Bill, thanks so much for joining me today. 02:21.509 --> 02:23.252 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited to dive into your book. 02:23.293 --> 02:28.121 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Way of Interruption Spiritual Practice for Organizational Life. 02:28.201 --> 02:28.922 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here. 02:28.942 --> 02:30.625 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, thanks for having me. 02:30.645 --> 02:31.407 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's pleasure. 02:31.935 --> 02:32.836 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 02:32.896 --> 02:35.337 [SPEAKER_01]: So why don't you briefly introduce yourself to the listeners? 02:35.437 --> 02:39.159 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that are you the CEO of Hope Rises that you're title there? 02:39.519 --> 02:41.801 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the CEO of Hope Rises International. 02:42.101 --> 02:51.246 [SPEAKER_00]: We're formally known as American Lepersy missions and we went through a brand change about a little over a month ago and after a hundred and nineteen years. 02:51.886 --> 03:01.152 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, still did the same work around the world with people marginalized by and stigmatized by diseases like Lepersy and trying to see them find both 03:01.872 --> 03:06.153 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, physical healing and renewal as well as the hope that's found in the Gospel. 03:06.173 --> 03:08.034 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we do around the world. 03:08.514 --> 03:09.834 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been here for fourteen years. 03:09.854 --> 03:15.736 [SPEAKER_00]: I live in Greenville, South Carolina, and we moved here from not far from where you are. 03:15.776 --> 03:20.298 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we were in Mason, Ohio, the Cincinnati area, so yeah. 03:20.518 --> 03:22.398 [SPEAKER_01]: That's near King's Island, right? 03:22.918 --> 03:24.959 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's, unfortunately, that's the landmark. 03:25.559 --> 03:26.199 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 03:26.939 --> 03:28.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, isn't that near the Golden Lab? 03:29.152 --> 03:30.453 [SPEAKER_00]: The go one is the golden land. 03:30.473 --> 03:31.594 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you heard of the golden lamb? 03:32.175 --> 03:39.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently it's this lovely hotel restaurant that several presidents have stayed at in the last hundred plus years. 03:40.984 --> 03:44.487 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I missed that one, but yeah, that might close to Lebanon. 03:45.360 --> 03:45.801 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 03:47.142 --> 03:48.723 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's about thirty minutes away. 03:48.763 --> 04:08.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so we've been here for a while and yeah, and I think it's a it's a moment where in our organization, you know, the last several years we've been through transition and part of that was included my own sort of

journey through a season that trying to wrestle with with burnout and badical and 04:09.680 --> 04:15.524 [SPEAKER_00]: the role of spiritual practices in organizations and that gave rise to writing a book about that. 04:15.624 --> 04:16.084 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. 04:17.024 --> 04:26.490 [SPEAKER_01]: I like in the introduction of your book you say when we are confronted by our own utter inability to control what happens to us, it often compounds our belief in a false narrative. 04:26.990 --> 04:30.913 [SPEAKER_01]: The narrative that tells us that we can and should be in control. 04:31.493 --> 04:36.556 [SPEAKER_01]: That our experiences of powerlessness are just avoidable blips in the normal pattern 04:37.096 --> 04:38.537 [SPEAKER_01]: where we are in control. 04:39.077 --> 04:44.680 [SPEAKER_01]: And that really resonated with me because on minimalist moms, I prior to the change to clear intentions. 04:45.120 --> 04:49.342 [SPEAKER_01]: I always say, like, control the things that you can, which are very few. 04:49.522 --> 04:55.465 [SPEAKER_01]: And to me, I'm like, those are your household possessions, the things that we're bringing in, the things that we're cluttering up our spaces with. 04:55.785 --> 04:58.507 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I've realized now that I've been a parent for ten years. 04:58.547 --> 05:01.068 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's hard to fully control your children. 05:01.088 --> 05:03.109 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I can't control my spouse. 05:03.149 --> 05:04.190 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't control anyone else. 05:04.210 --> 05:05.410 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't control a world event. 05:05.430 --> 05:06.431 [SPEAKER_01]: But you think that 05:06.892 --> 05:10.988 [SPEAKER_01]: You should have control and then you're kind of flailing when you pull that really restated with me. 05:11.550 --> 05:12.790 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right. 05:12.850 --> 05:14.091 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been a parent now. 05:14.111 --> 05:16.812 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a shocking, I guess, to say, I've been a parent for thirty four years. 05:16.892 --> 05:22.334 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and you learn with every year that goes by that actually, no, you were never in control. 05:22.774 --> 05:23.854 [SPEAKER_00]: They were just smaller than you. 05:24.275 --> 05:28.076 [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I think, you know, control is something that we, we all wrestle with. 05:28.156 --> 05:32.037 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's, it maybe it goes back to the garden and it's about selfishness and it's about us. 05:32.117 --> 05:34.478 [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to have the information. 05:34.518 --> 05:35.578 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to have the knowledge. 05:35.639 --> 05:38.199 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to understand and be able to make our own decisions. 05:38.239 --> 05:39.520 [SPEAKER_00]: The modern world, I think, is even 05:40.220 --> 05:56.563 [SPEAKER_00]: more particularly this way, where we've over the last several hundred years, we've continued to sort of erode this foundation where lids and faith are a core part of people's natural lives, and now it's sort of a compartmentalized section of people's lives, and so we don't 05:57.263 --> 06:01.824 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe see the divine, that's a part of something that is a part of the world order. 06:01.884 --> 06:04.344 [SPEAKER_00]: We see it, something that's cordoned off. 06:04.664 --> 06:12.606 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that silitates an environment where we can maintain this illusion of control even more. 06:12.926 --> 06:21.927 [SPEAKER_00]: I fly a lot, maybe you do too, but I actually think that people are less worried about flying than they are of not being in control. 06:21.947 --> 06:24.388 [SPEAKER_00]: Because this is the time when we get on the airplane is when we realize, oh, 06:25.168 --> 06:48.443 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we actually are not driving this thing and sort of is a reintroduction of how we are in fact not in control with even if we have the illusion right people always talk about how safe it is to drive but we're I think that's that's the illusion that we live under and depending on our circumstances in life we can compound that even more with we have had difficult experiences or 06:49.203 --> 06:57.208 [SPEAKER_00]: traumas and those sorts of events then then we want to mitigate and it prevent negative events from happening again. 06:57.368 --> 07:00.970 [SPEAKER_00]: So we then start to build walls or 07:01.501 --> 07:08.463 [SPEAKER_00]: patterns so that we can ensure that we're insulated from randomness that we, you know, we think it's going to happen. 07:08.483 --> 07:13.625 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's exhausting to put up those barriers, you know, you're talking about raising kids. 07:13.645 --> 07:20.307 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's exhausting to try to try to, I feel like all you're doing in Minnesota helicopter parenting comes in, it's because we're 07:20.787 --> 07:29.935 [SPEAKER_00]: We know we're over energizing our need to control something and that's exhaustive exhausting for the kids, but it's also exhausting for the parents. 07:29.955 --> 07:31.536 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's true in any part of life. 07:32.096 --> 07:37.821 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny you use the example of flying because it's only been in adulthood. 07:37.881 --> 07:39.262 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably I'm thirty six. 07:39.302 --> 07:41.224 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's probably been in the last six to eight years. 07:41.929 --> 07:47.893 [SPEAKER_01]: where I am not someone that struggles with anxiety, but I am incredibly anxious stepping on a flight. 07:48.433 --> 07:50.355 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is that loss of control. 07:50.435 --> 07:52.736 [SPEAKER_01]: Like someone else is in the driver seat, so to speak. 07:53.477 --> 07:56.078 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could fall from the sky at any moment. 07:56.579 --> 07:59.721 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet I'm constantly in the car commuting into Columbus. 08:00.001 --> 08:08.387 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I've diluted myself to thinking that the control that I

have behind this wheel is better than the flight when I can't control all the other drivers around me. 08:08.427 --> 08:09.708 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's just funny how we, 08:10.448 --> 08:16.170 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is that we want to believe and that gives us comfort, put our faith there, but like it's misguided. 08:16.770 --> 08:28.014 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to talk about who you wrote this book for, because in your book you talk about putting these practices in a place for organizations, and yet I do think these practices could be beneficial for anyone listening. 08:28.134 --> 08:30.935 [SPEAKER_01]: So who did you, would you say you wrote this book for? 08:31.015 --> 08:34.256 [SPEAKER_01]: But what's the message that you hope for listeners and readers to take away? 08:35.263 --> 08:57.313 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, and I think goes back to the reason that control comes up in the book is that I think in leadership and in running organizations, we certainly are looking to control our strategy and control the outcomes and we have things that we're exerting energy toward and so the question becomes, what is our vocation? 08:58.433 --> 09:02.515 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the case of this sector of the world, 09:03.115 --> 09:23.443 [SPEAKER_00]: Called not Christian nonprofit organizations which are para church ministries because they exist to support the church What I what I realized in my sabbatical I took a couple of years ago I began to understand that I that not only did I have my own issues with control, but that also part of that was I was trying to control something that wasn't mine to control 09:24.416 --> 09:28.282 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is that I have a very clear vocation. 09:28.302 --> 09:32.788 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm called to to be an administrator to be an executive to help 09:33.355 --> 09:34.495 [SPEAKER_00]: run an organization well. 09:35.015 --> 09:38.836 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I discovered along the way is that there was an implicit occasional expectation. 09:38.877 --> 09:45.418 [SPEAKER_00]: I think people expect that everyone who runs a Christian ministry is also called to be a pastor. 09:45.718 --> 09:55.021 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we take on this responsibility that's not ours, which is to be engaged in the spiritual formation of people in our organization when that's the role of the church. 09:55.161 --> 09:57.141 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the question comes. 09:57.622 --> 10:00.162 [SPEAKER_00]: So then that creates a drain, I think, on people. 10:00.182 --> 10:02.483 [SPEAKER_00]: And this can be true individually, but certainly it's true. 10:03.223 --> 10:25.232 [SPEAKER_00]: paratroopers ministries because I mean the true the true is a miss that when we take on responsibility of things that are outside are are calling and are gifting those things can be incredibly exhausting especially if God's not surviving us into it and empowering us to do it then then then that's going to be exhausting and I think

that's what I discovered as I felt this implicit expectation 10:25.994 --> 10:40.423 [SPEAKER_00]: to, you know, show up with a new virtual vision or some new dynamic take on things and to sort of, in some ways, replicate what people are getting in their own community of faith on a Sunday or among their church families. 10:40.503 --> 10:48.629 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the book is, well, first, before the book was what we started these practices in our organization. 10:49.649 --> 11:15.518 [SPEAKER_00]: where we disrupt our pattern of work and our daily life in a way that creates a constant reorienting toward the define and we allow God to then reenter into our space so that we can go about our work and that simple idea led to the specific practices but they relate back to control in that I'm no longer having to invent 11:16.194 --> 11:39.211 [SPEAKER_00]: every week or month or year some new theme instead I'm relieved of that I don't have to try to control that anymore and we just practice this simple rhythm that you know someone's about that sounds boring over time well I do hope I'm maybe the songs are boring I don't know I that's we just have to deal with that we've been doing it for several thousand years and so 11:40.092 --> 11:41.655 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was burst out of that. 11:41.755 --> 11:47.503 [SPEAKER_00]: So the book, the book was written to capture that, to capture our practices and your right. 11:47.584 --> 11:51.610 [SPEAKER_00]: They're the sort of practices that anyone could benefit from. 11:51.830 --> 11:54.654 [SPEAKER_00]: Particularly, I think the one that I find has been 11:55.195 --> 12:10.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Most surprising to people is the thing that's hardest to do in today's world, which is just to come to a stop to pause, to take a breath, and especially in a Zoom meeting dominated world, and there are no breaks in your back to back, and it's hard to be present. 12:11.586 --> 12:14.748 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's an essential rhythm, the first rhythm is pausing, and 12:15.388 --> 12:21.192 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really aimed at trying to be present to the immense God and the other person and show up to that person well. 12:21.853 --> 12:26.696 [SPEAKER_00]: And we just surprise what happens when you can just take a breath and recollect yourself. 12:27.257 --> 12:31.860 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it's been important and it's been a surprising as I speak to leaders and other organizations. 12:32.040 --> 12:36.844 [SPEAKER_00]: You mean you you take a you take a minute or two before every meeting and just sit in silence. 12:36.904 --> 12:38.906 [SPEAKER_00]: I said yeah, that's that's what that's what we do. 12:39.666 --> 12:44.670 [SPEAKER_00]: You'd be surprised at how it the practice then is what brings you back into saying all I need to 12:45.050 --> 12:47.997 [SPEAKER_00]: be here with this person, whether it's on Zoom or in person. 12:48.599 --> 12:50.744 [SPEAKER_00]: It starts there because that's what Jesus did. 12:50.784 -->

12:53.010 [SPEAKER_00]: He modeled being present and so we start there. 13:05.187 --> 13:07.128 [SPEAKER_01]: I like how you talk about here, let's see. 13:08.128 --> 13:17.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Some might think that this ancient liturgical practice could become monotonous and perhaps even amongst themselves would agree with me from time to time, but that is not the point. 13:17.910 --> 13:21.791 [SPEAKER_01]: The point is that they have oriented their lives to this interruption. 13:22.291 --> 13:24.892 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, your book, the way of interruption. 13:25.452 --> 13:33.574 [SPEAKER_01]: I think in today's culture, yes, that is kind of anti the way that culture is because we're just like the hustle and bustle if you're gonna go work your nine to five. 13:33.634 --> 13:35.414 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I have to really get it all in. 13:35.454 --> 13:47.216 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't stop to be interrupted and yet I think we probably do our best work when we take that time to get clarity, to get perspective, to sit in silence, to listen to the Lord. 13:47.236 --> 13:52.497 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like we'll be better for it and yet we just don't ever take the time to do that. 13:53.483 --> 13:55.845 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not, it's not our practice. 13:55.885 --> 13:59.067 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, I've discovered, I'll give you a real world example. 13:59.087 --> 14:08.014 [SPEAKER_00]: One was a few weeks ago, we had a team member who felt like, you know, they wanted to tend to the resignation, but they did it in a, in a, in a different way. 14:08.634 --> 14:10.416 [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted us to consider it. 14:10.456 --> 14:12.938 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like, oh, I need, I'm resigning him out of here. 14:13.558 --> 14:19.321 [SPEAKER_00]: It was more a very fellowship driven sort of a question that maybe this would be better for the organization. 14:19.401 --> 14:23.923 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he stepped away from the meeting and so our my leadership team was left. 14:24.103 --> 14:31.767 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the first thing that we did was we just sat in silence for about four to five minutes. 14:32.863 --> 14:38.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Just allowing ourselves to process this event, this thing that was put forward, we weren't expecting. 14:38.487 --> 14:44.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of just rushing in with word before, we had the ability to sort of make sense even in our own minds. 14:45.591 --> 14:47.933 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we used, there's something in the back of the book. 14:47.993 --> 14:52.296 [SPEAKER_00]: There are a bunch of prayers and liturgies that many leaders contributed to. 14:52.356 --> 14:54.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of them is a prayer for discernment. 14:54.998 --> 14:57.619 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we prayed this prayer for discernment together. 14:57.679 --> 14:58.100 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we 14:58.720 --> 15:03.424 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we began our discussion about how to interact with this question that was put to us. 15:04.364 --> 15:14.092 [SPEAKER_00]: But if we didn't have these as practices, if it wasn't a natural rhythm, then it would have been a stretch where we would have had to invent some way to meet the moment. 15:14.172 --> 15:26.862 [SPEAKER_00]: But because our rhythm and practice was always to pause and take a second, it was really important in that moment, and by we were really thankful that we'd taken a few years, and this was the way that we were, 15:27.622 --> 15:35.047 [SPEAKER_00]: Because then when those crises hit or something interrupts your world in day the practice can meet that. 15:35.107 --> 15:38.769 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's you know, that's the pattern that Jesus presented to us. 15:38.789 --> 15:44.373 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, people were always trying to hurry him places and they were frustrated when he didn't get there fast enough. 15:44.393 --> 15:47.115 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Lazarus comes to mind or he's on the way to 15:47.615 --> 15:49.716 [SPEAKER_00]: meet, you know, you're trying to heal Jaros this daughter. 15:49.736 --> 15:53.497 [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to, you know, meet that need, but he pauses along. 15:53.537 --> 15:58.720 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not in such a hurry that he can't pause for the woman who touches the hem of his garment. 15:59.240 --> 16:00.440 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's present to that. 16:00.540 --> 16:11.805 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think this, this pattern or at least the model, I think we have in Christ is of someone who is who understands how to get somewhere, but not be in so much for her that he's not present to the moment. 16:12.565 --> 16:13.966 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we try to do that. 16:14.046 --> 16:16.447 [SPEAKER_00]: But the practice is a real word. 16:16.507 --> 16:18.568 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it means what it says. 16:18.608 --> 16:22.150 [SPEAKER_00]: So we try to actually have a be a thing that we're always doing. 16:22.170 --> 16:30.234 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I learned from seeing these monks in the New Mexico desert, the Christian, the desert monasteries, you realize, oh, you know, they're doing the work. 16:30.294 --> 16:31.694 [SPEAKER_00]: They have to run this home monastery. 16:31.714 --> 16:33.916 [SPEAKER_00]: They got guests to feed and their selves. 16:34.016 --> 16:35.716 [SPEAKER_00]: And all these things they have to do. 16:35.776 --> 16:40.619 [SPEAKER_00]: And they have to interrupt their work seven or eight times a day to go to the chapel and pray. 16:41.840 --> 16:50.864 [SPEAKER_00]: And I realized they're a way, maybe it's the other way around, maybe they're interrupting their prayers to go work and how could our lives be like that? 16:50.964 --> 16:53.805 [SPEAKER_00]: What a way to be like if we could blur the lines, I think that. 16:54.642 --> 16:58.743 [SPEAKER_00]: And Nigma, we all have this, you know, pastors of Paul says, you know, we should pray without ceasing. 16:58.763 --> 17:03.285 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like this just, well, he must have been

something nuanced or different. 17:03.865 --> 17:17.210 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the more that we spend in this attitude in clining our hearts and our bodies toward God and to Christ, then we find a blurring of the lines. 17:17.390 --> 17:18.490 [SPEAKER_00]: Henry now and says that 17:19.050 --> 17:27.715 [SPEAKER_00]: If you take this small portion of scripture, you know, keep reducing scripture down and you find this phrase or word that resonates with you and you just hold on to it. 17:27.755 --> 17:33.178 [SPEAKER_00]: It may make a nest in your heart and you can carry it with you throughout the day. 17:33.198 --> 17:34.379 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that idea. 17:34.399 --> 17:36.380 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it's as simple as that. 17:36.500 --> 17:41.563 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we have practices that then a part of a Psalm might just find a place. 17:41.623 --> 17:44.545 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we then find ourselves praying without ceasing. 17:45.052 --> 17:46.232 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, so bad. 17:46.392 --> 17:48.533 [SPEAKER_01]: I've said this on a different episode, but I'll reset it. 17:48.673 --> 17:59.576 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when I've heard of, like prayer time or meditation in the past, oftentimes people are going to God with the requests that there are laments. 18:00.056 --> 18:08.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe maybe they are being grateful and expressing gratitude, but we often don't sit in silence to hear back from God, and that's where that 18:08.858 --> 18:13.601 [SPEAKER_01]: That's where that relationship is built is when we, like it's not so one-sided. 18:13.661 --> 18:27.689 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that again, going back to our culture and the way that corporations run, the way that work this is run, the way that moms run their households, we have very few instances of silence and just pausing in our days. 18:27.769 --> 18:38.595 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would, I guess I would ask, both on a personal, you gave us an example, but maybe what's on a personal level that you have felt freedom since implementing these, just in your life? 18:39.528 --> 19:02.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I would slowly, I think, you know, you mentioned silence and I would say that maybe that's the even more important thing that I'm my journey of faith and especially in the last several years, I have such a, and I'm sure I'm not unique, but I'm a very word-driven intellectual, you know, I'm always thinking, processing, 19:03.620 --> 19:14.887 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, prayer often, in my life, I've been reduced to that exchange of information, whether it was outbound for me, as you mentioned, or, you know, wanting inbound information from God. 19:15.567 --> 19:26.493 [SPEAKER_00]: And the older I've gotten, and the longer my journey of faith has been, the more I've tried to understand something that seems very foreign and that's simply what does it mean to commune with God? 19:26.733 --> 19:29.075 [SPEAKER_00]: To just be a commune as be with. 19:30.095 --> 19:33.196

[SPEAKER_00]: And can I find a way to be with even in silence? 19:33.356 --> 19:35.697 [SPEAKER_00]: And talk about being a busy mom. 19:35.958 --> 19:38.058 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes all you want is just some quiet. 19:39.619 --> 19:41.100 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't need anybody saying anything. 19:41.120 --> 19:43.360 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we all want that space. 19:43.901 --> 19:47.162 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know how to do that sometimes in close relationships. 19:47.202 --> 19:48.963 [SPEAKER_00]: We know how to be with our spouse. 19:50.043 --> 19:51.525 [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't need to be saying anything. 19:51.565 --> 19:55.730 [SPEAKER_00]: We can be sitting in the same room, reading books, we know we're together with. 19:56.290 --> 20:00.274 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's something I continue to find. 20:00.995 --> 20:08.163 [SPEAKER_00]: Reaches a part of my heart and life that other things that a constant trying to create information exchange does not. 20:08.683 --> 20:16.289 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's another thing I think we see demonstrated in the pattern of the life of Christ where he went away to quiet places. 20:16.529 --> 20:20.451 [SPEAKER_00]: These are the sorts of rhythms I think he modeled for us. 20:20.692 --> 20:25.195 [SPEAKER_00]: And it feels very strange to just sit. 20:25.655 --> 20:29.598 [SPEAKER_00]: And what does it even mean to just be with God? 20:29.978 --> 20:31.739 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it feels very foreign. 20:32.020 --> 20:34.521 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's began as I mentioned in the opening. 20:34.541 --> 20:35.202 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's part of 20:35.820 --> 20:39.883 [SPEAKER_00]: our culture and our modern and contact on these things were far removed from us. 20:39.983 --> 20:41.564 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we have to find our way back. 20:42.525 --> 20:45.707 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that means we need to take some old roads. 20:46.268 --> 20:48.249 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the Jeremiah six passages, right? 20:48.269 --> 20:50.711 [SPEAKER_00]: That, you know, what are these ancient paths? 20:51.171 --> 20:53.093 [SPEAKER_00]: And let's walk in those ways. 20:53.973 --> 20:58.157 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that reaches parts of my heart sort of like poetry might. 20:58.797 --> 21:05.345 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, breaches, places and feelings that we don't know how to express and we don't really need words for. 21:06.126 --> 21:17.060 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so I mean, that's my response is more about how do I find more space to simply be with God and and practices are what to do that for sure. 21:18.096 --> 21:32.134 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when I've sat down to say have silent time time to listen, you sit down, you close your eyes and then the chatter starts to come up and you have a hard time discerning what is 21:33.455 --> 21:40.458 [SPEAKER_01]: my own perspective, or me trying to talk myself into something that I want versus allowing God to speak truth to us. 21:41.239 --> 21:46.921

[SPEAKER_01]: And, or it could be maybe something not of good that's talking to us again, our fleshly desires. 21:47.301 --> 21:54.665 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think those ancient paths that you're talking about stepping back into having, I guess, maybe greater clarity or less noise. 21:54.785 --> 21:59.167 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that previous generations were more fortunate not to have as much 21:59.747 --> 22:14.071 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess as many voices like just talking into their ear every single day, whether that's through media, social media, even advertisements, just the number of people we interact with as opposed to people and who they interact with in the past. 22:14.111 --> 22:16.552 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just think what to summarize everything that I'm saying. 22:16.632 --> 22:21.414 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just as hard to discern whose voices God versus our fleshly nature. 22:21.534 --> 22:21.914 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's 22:22.674 --> 22:30.023 [SPEAKER_01]: why it's so important to like really take the time to practice this and it is going to take time and effort to get there, I think. 22:31.491 --> 22:39.657 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I would say that I think that we put a lot of energy into trying to hear what God is saying. 22:40.218 --> 22:57.211 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is why we're trying to quiet the voices in our head, and good, good access is actually not trying to silence those voices to acknowledge them and let them go by, don't try to tamp down what you're hearing, but I think if we 22:57.671 --> 23:02.594 [SPEAKER_00]: If we actually concentrate on not hearing, we're more likely to hear. 23:02.754 --> 23:20.184 [SPEAKER_00]: If we're trying to try to discern which voice in our head is or which thought is coming to us is divinely inspired, I still think that is a bit of an activity that's bent on forcing something out of God as opposed to being present and observing. 23:20.524 --> 23:23.026 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the more we can get into an observant posture, 23:23.706 --> 23:27.150 [SPEAKER_00]: where we're aware of what's around, as that gets us out of our head. 23:27.170 --> 23:32.155 [SPEAKER_00]: And I spent a lot of time just being trying to be present to the moment. 23:32.175 --> 23:43.368 [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned even the dedication of the book, is I was entering this time of sabbatical and had a morning rhythm of being on my porch outside. 23:44.288 --> 23:56.833 [SPEAKER_00]: reading, praying, and our grandkids sleep over every other week, and it's a wonderful get-it's a close-by, and so my granddaughter came out and she interrupted my prayer con, right? 23:58.533 --> 24:11.118 [SPEAKER_00]: And she climbed up in this porch swing with me, and we sat there, and I felt very clearly that God was saying that this was being with him, and this was prayer. 24:12.578 --> 24:19.425 [SPEAKER_00]: And what was more being like and with God than to be present to my granddaughter in that moment. 24:20.006 --> 24:21.307 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I

think that's what's weird, right? 24:21.327 --> 24:22.688 [SPEAKER_00]: So we mistake what is it? 24:22.789 --> 24:23.750 [SPEAKER_00]: What is prayer? 24:23.770 --> 24:28.655 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we've just so we've reduced it to the type of communication we experienced in this world. 24:29.515 --> 24:35.139 [SPEAKER_00]: It's too way and now, as you mentioned, it's so digital and so instantaneous. 24:35.659 --> 24:40.002 [SPEAKER_00]: What does it mean to experience other sorts in forms of communication? 24:40.582 --> 24:51.610 [SPEAKER_00]: And to start to hear and see God speak, maybe not in words in the way that we think about it, but to make something distinctly clear to us, which in that moment I knew, 24:52.550 --> 24:57.235 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, being with God is being with my grand child is being with God. 24:57.255 --> 25:05.463 [SPEAKER_00]: Because this is being present to the image of God and this wonderful child and what else is there to do? 25:06.263 --> 25:12.690 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think the more that our practices can make us present to the moment, the more we can 25:13.370 --> 25:16.812 [SPEAKER_00]: understand what God is doing or we can observe something. 25:17.453 --> 25:24.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's where my friend Bob Gough would say, you know, he would never pray with his eyes closed. 25:24.137 --> 25:24.837 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a thing. 25:24.877 --> 25:25.197 [SPEAKER_00]: He does. 25:25.237 --> 25:28.079 [SPEAKER_00]: He always likes to make a joke about that and it's true. 25:28.119 --> 25:28.839 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't do that. 25:28.900 --> 25:31.821 [SPEAKER_00]: So I find there was time for I want to close my eyes. 25:31.881 --> 25:37.945 [SPEAKER_00]: But I've seen God work and heard God speak more with my eyes open than with my eyes closed. 25:37.985 --> 25:39.606 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know, but that's just me. 25:40.086 --> 25:41.167 [SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah, I love that. 25:41.780 --> 26:00.622 [SPEAKER_01]: So your book, again, it comes down to the pause and the Psalms and then pray that's the practice that you set up and then you go into, you kind of lay out how someone could implement this in their rhythm and then towards the end you have some liturgies, which I don't think we've defined for listeners that aren't maybe is familiar with the term liturgie, can you just hang up? 26:01.599 --> 26:04.301 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, liturgy sounds like a scary word. 26:04.341 --> 26:07.123 [SPEAKER_00]: It certainly did to me for a lot of my church life. 26:07.183 --> 26:12.147 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think liturgy is is in some ways a work of the people. 26:12.347 --> 26:13.688 [SPEAKER_00]: It means something we do together. 26:14.249 --> 26:15.209 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's all it means. 26:15.229 --> 26:19.673 [SPEAKER_00]: So in that sense, every church is a liturgy because they have their own shape or practice they do together. 26:20.394 --> 26:28.023 [SPEAKER_00]: And so these prayers are, in that sense, liturgies because they're meant to be done together. 26:28.043 --> 26:30.225 [SPEAKER_00]: They're meant to be prayed together. 26:30.906 --> 26:37.874 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're aimed at things that there's a great series of books by Andrew Peterson, Reverend Press, called Every Moment Holy. 26:38.775 --> 26:42.977 [SPEAKER_00]: And they cover all sorts of moments in life and individual's lives. 26:43.057 --> 26:47.760 [SPEAKER_00]: But there were no prayers for organizational life. 26:48.680 --> 26:57.225 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, whether it's, you know, onboarding a new staff person or launch a new project in the world or whatever, maybe happening or someone's retiring. 26:58.245 --> 27:02.147 [SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to have shared words and shared prayers. 27:02.167 --> 27:02.988 [SPEAKER_00]: Just still room for 27:03.548 --> 27:05.609 [SPEAKER_00]: people to be spontaneous. 27:05.689 --> 27:12.372 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not trying to remove spontaneity, but it's more about trying to say, what does it look like when we do something together? 27:12.392 --> 27:18.895 [SPEAKER_00]: That's another thing I think that we've lost and part of that has to do with the Protestant Reformation, which I think was a good thing. 27:19.735 --> 27:27.417 [SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things we sort of lost was the idea of corporate and global corporate Catholic Church sharing and things together. 27:28.078 --> 27:31.119 [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved to mean that captured my heart in some way. 27:31.139 --> 27:45.503 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought, well, what would it be like if people and organizations were reading the same song or praying a similar prayer and sort of the rising of the voices of the multitudes in the same voice and the same words or something sort of 27:46.043 --> 28:08.452 [SPEAKER_00]: elegant and beautiful about that and so the the liturgies are aimed at that idea that we're we're sharing in something together so today we may be praying the same prayer that another organization might pray and you know individuals can can find them appropriate for moments in their lives as well and so I think that's the that's the richness of shared shared practice which is what liturgies 28:09.946 --> 28:10.526 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 28:11.086 --> 28:23.371 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've given us so much to think about again, there's I guess maybe before we I ask you the final question, how again, you wrote this for organizations, but there's so many practicals that listeners can take away. 28:23.551 --> 28:27.733 [SPEAKER_01]: How would you suggest moms incorporate these practices into their today? 28:27.773 --> 28:30.074 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have like just a quick example. 28:31.027 --> 28:36.511 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think the rhythm is deciding what's the pattern. 28:36.732 --> 28:41.415 [SPEAKER_00]: And so in our case, in the organization, the pattern is before every meeting. 28:41.435 --> 28:44.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Well,

that can mean I have five to ten meetings in a day. 28:44.278 --> 28:46.679 [SPEAKER_00]: So the patterns of established based upon 28:47.540 --> 29:04.489 [SPEAKER_00]: the the meetings that I have and for an individual deciding what the pattern is you know what's the you know before what five things every day that that you do every day are you gonna take a sixty second or three minute pause and take a breath 29:05.209 --> 29:14.453 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to read three or four verses of a Psalm again and recollects yourself and return whatever words you need to to God and prayer. 29:15.073 --> 29:16.414 [SPEAKER_00]: And what's the pattern? 29:16.774 --> 29:20.816 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what the pattern then will dictate how the 29:21.556 --> 29:26.679 [SPEAKER_00]: the practice can then interrupt and be a part of your normal daily life. 29:26.719 --> 29:36.163 [SPEAKER_00]: I think what I've found in my own Facebook has been, for some reason I always felt like it was a struggle to create a pattern. 29:37.484 --> 29:46.028 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the next, you know, a quiet time thing I'm going to do the next year and I don't know, I just felt elusive in spite of all of my desire and intention. 29:46.868 --> 29:55.210 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the last few years, as I have adopted something that's older than me as a practice, was older than my generation. 29:55.230 --> 29:57.671 [SPEAKER_00]: I have found that I'm just doing it. 29:58.031 --> 30:00.032 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, it's the strangest thing. 30:00.052 --> 30:03.292 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't decide I'm going to wake up every morning and do this. 30:03.692 --> 30:05.013 [SPEAKER_00]: It is now just what I do. 30:05.873 --> 30:07.714 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it is a part of my practice. 30:07.754 --> 30:12.858 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's creating this rhythm and that fits your life. 30:12.918 --> 30:20.143 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for a mom, I would say whatever the rhythm is, find a way to insert the practices right in front of the rhythm. 30:20.423 --> 30:22.164 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you won't have to try to do it. 30:22.662 --> 30:32.767 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, now I'm thinking I home school my oldest and I'm thinking even before we sit down at the table in the morning just having a moment to pause together and even pray together. 30:32.867 --> 30:45.813 [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's really important and it sets I guess the intention of that moment but also maybe before discipline if you have the ability to or if my husband and I are in conflict like taking that moment beforehand together. 30:46.253 --> 30:55.704 [SPEAKER_01]: Like any other's presence too, because I think it just kind of puts you, it might put you at ease a little bit more to just be with one another, but silent before you engage. 30:55.764 --> 30:57.987 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's also a good bill. 30:58.087 --> 31:03.213 [SPEAKER_01]: Where can listeners grab a copy and connect with you, hope rises online? 31:03.573 --> 31:04.254 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks. 31:04.334 --> 31:08.216 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can find more about me in the book at Bill Simmons, S.I.M. 31:08.336 --> 31:08.496 [SPEAKER_00]: M. M.O. 31:08.557 --> 31:09.797 [SPEAKER_00]: and S dot net. 31:10.638 --> 31:24.628 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can find more about the work that we do around the world at HopeRises.org and, of course, you can just go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble wherever and look up the way of interruption by Bill Simmons and you can find the book there. 31:25.248 --> 31:25.528 [SPEAKER_01]: Great. 31:25.629 --> 31:28.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, before I let you go, I'm going to ask you just a final question. 31:28.252 --> 31:33.540 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just rapid fire or not to thought through, but what does it mean to you to live a life with clear intentions? 31:34.727 --> 31:35.248 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. 31:35.308 --> 31:35.428 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 31:35.468 --> 31:37.009 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, this is your question, right? 31:37.750 --> 31:48.420 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, you know, clear intention is about a constant desire to want to have your life intersect with what God wants for you. 31:49.161 --> 31:55.266 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that I think to my intent then is to see God show up in my life. 31:55.286 --> 31:59.710 [SPEAKER_00]: So the more, the more that I'm orienting myself to him, to his desires for the world, 32:00.331 --> 32:06.393 [SPEAKER_00]: than the more his intentions, his clear intentions will be demonstrated in the world. 32:06.473 --> 32:10.174 [SPEAKER_00]: And really, that's, you know, that's the prayer and the Lord's prayer, you know, that kingdom comes. 32:10.554 --> 32:21.217 [SPEAKER_00]: I just mind intent is to see God use me to establish His kingdom on earth and having my intentions aimed at Him may be a way for that to happen. 32:22.238 --> 32:23.438 [SPEAKER_01]: So good, that kingdom come. 32:23.538 --> 32:25.519 [SPEAKER_01]: That is, yes, great answer. 32:25.919 --> 32:27.439 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining me today. 32:27.939 --> 32:28.900 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks, Diane. 32:28.920 --> 32:29.500 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a pleasure. 32:36.983 --> 32:38.204 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of the episode? 32:38.224 --> 32:40.065 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation. 32:40.085 --> 32:48.292 [SPEAKER_01]: To learn more about today's guest, including links or resources related to everything discussed today, check out the show notes in your podcast window. 32:49.853 --> 32:58.740 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to support the podcast, be easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 33:00.190 --> 33:02.651 [SPEAKER_01]: and leave a rating or review of your favorite episode. 33:03.272 --> 33:11.857 [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is so helpful and will encourage others as they set out to pursue a life with clear intentions.