SOME THOUGHTS FOR THE CLASS (on gender based harm)...의 전체 녹취록

--> 00:05:31.519 I like grapes actually. 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:34.560 I love green grapes, I love purple grapes. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:37.360 This is not language, it is really important. 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:52.800 Like language is really important and censorship, this um whatever algorithm that, but what all I know is when when we're buying into the status quo and we're like doing that rule, um to me it's very spooky scary, so I'm not gonna do it. 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:59.439 Um, I'm gonna say kill, murder, rape, and all of those words because those are the words, those are that's what they are. 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.480 That's what they are, and they should sound hard on the ear. 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.839 And when we soften it, we're not helping anyone. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:11.680 We're just quieting the harm that exists in very loud ways to the people that it's happening to, right? 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.399 Okay, that's a good segue. 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:26.720 I also want to say, I am interested solely in the preservation of life. 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.199 I'm interested solely in the ending of rape. 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:39.519 I'm interested solely in less harm against women, children, disabled people, every vulnerable every vulnerable community, right? 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:46.000 Uh as a basis of my understanding and learning of abolition when it happened to me, right? 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:54.800 Um I was taught the ethos of uh, you know, centering the most vulnerable in our communities, right? 00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:02.480 As the like when you center the needs of the of the most vulnerable in our communities, we get the needs for everybody. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.879 Um to me, this is uncontroversial, it is absolutely math. 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:18.240 You center the black, indigenous, trans, disabled person in the community, you get freedom for all. 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:21.360 You center their liberation, you get liberation for all, right? 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:34.079 Um I'm gonna I can speak to my experience of gender-based harm, and I am never assuming to um speak to anybody else's experience of it. 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:43.040 That's all I can do, and that's what I can offer, and that's what I have been pondering for frankly months about how to uh being like, should I do a video? 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:44.399 Should I do a fucking reel? 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:56.879 I have a lot of thoughts about this, and I have experiences, and I've really been thinking about it, and yeah, I just I have uh experiences that feel relevant that have been on my mind on my mind, right? 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:05.120 Um that have to do with all of these structural things um that are happening in our face, right? 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:11.040 So this is general, that's my big caveat, asterisk, trigger warning, etc. 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.399 And by the way, I do have my glasses on if you're only listening to the pod. 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:19.920 And if you're only listening, thank you for being a real podcast head. 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.959 I did put fucking mascara on and and lips. 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:36.639 I did put makeup on for the podcast today, and and I'm trying to de-center um the these things in my life, but also I am feeling beautiful these days in an interesting in an interesting way that's making me want to be expressive of that. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:37.759 Interesting, right? 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.960 Uh we'll get to it. 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:39.600 Okay. 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.799 And yeah, sometimes I might laugh because you have to laugh when things are hard and tough, all right? 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.159 It's fine. 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.320 We've been talking about Epstein stuff, right? 00:08:50.480 --> 00:09:02.240 And the and violence against women has continued to occur on such public um scales. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.679 And, you know, there's that website. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.039 Frankly, I didn't read into the website. 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:12.799 I just felt like I got the headline, I said, got it. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:13.360 Great. 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.879 Don't need to re-traumatize myself by like digging into that. 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.600 I feel like I know what's going on there. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:20.399 Okay. 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:51.519 Um what I feel the need to speak to when it comes to all of this harm that is happening, is what I see, what I have seen happen in abolitionist communities, like communities of like very like and even beyond you know, abolitionist community, whatever, that can be a specific thing. 00:09:51.600 --> 00:10:00.559 Let's just say even leftist communities, because I think it's frankly, it's it's more, it's potent to me when I see it happen to like self-identifying abolitionists. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:17.039 Um, but I think it's applicable to all sort of leftist spaces where these are these are communities that are based that are purporting to be sort of like we we are here for the for for the liberation of all people, right? 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:27.200 And there will be the uh communities that are loudly anti-police, right, and anti-prison and anti-capitalist and all these things. 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:34.320 Um and it just falls apart around like gender-based harm. 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:59.360 And I say all of this with the with the acute, and we will get into it, understanding of how sensitive, horrible, awful, life-altering this type of violence is as someone who has experienced a gradient of those of that harm perpetrated on me that has survived that harm in different ways. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:04.000 I know it changes your whole ass brain chemistry. 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:04.799 We've talked about it. 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:31.039 PTSD down, not like every my whole body, my everything is different after the types of violations that

I've experienced to my body um because of subtler chipping away of a lack of boundaries and more intimate interpersonal relationships, you know, and the overt. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.000 I mean, we'll just I'll just name the things, right? 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:44.240 I guess not to like fucking qualify myself as a woman who's experienced harm, but um if you know the show, you know, if you've been around, you know about my punch, right? 00:11:44.399 --> 00:12:01.360 Like, like there's the there's really extreme versions of like being a woman who was sitting on the subway and got absolutely randomly punched by a houseless man for no reason um at all. 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.159 Just sitting there, punch my face, break my nose. 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:11.519 Like I've said time and time again, if he was in jail, my nose would remain broken. 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:19.120 It's got its slant and it'll be there whether he suffers or not. 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:21.360 And we'll get into it. 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:32.480 So there's really overt, like that was like the the more distance I have from it, because frankly, I was like, and I continue to be surviving that and like learning. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:37.519 Um, I'm start, you know, I'm like in my therapy, whatever, but like everything's a process, yada yada. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:13:11.840 Like really starting to understand like the way that that altered my whole like nervous system and like just uh simmering, hypervigilance, um, and uh the storing of that anxiety just like in my body, like the way that this jaw has not had rest, and I try so hard, and my life is so much better than it's been, and I've like really closer to peace than I've been ever. 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:20.399 I feel I feel it, I feel in myself so good, and yet I still it hurts, it's still there, and it's a process, and we're working on it. 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:25.120 I get it, that shit changed my whole fucking life. 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.000 That was an overt version of that. 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:43.039 There's other different versions of that, like being in, you know, the abusive relationship that I was in and the degradation of that boundary on my body. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:14:00.879 Dang, the more that I have put myself out there and have started to like be a woman, engaging in sexual relations again, like trying to like re-empower self, like have fun and pleasure. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:18.240 Wow, has that shown me in even more different new ways how small that I became and was forced to become in my relationship and how scared I am to assert myself. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:26.559 And I say the word assert, and that just and by that I just mean like say anything about what I want or need or don't want or need. 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:47.440 Like it's but it's it's been super re revealing to see, to be in dynamics that are healthy or like and wanting to be healthy and knowing like oh my god, like this is so beyond

what I felt like I could ever even be able to do in the relationship that I was in for three and a half years, right? 00:14:47.840 --> 00:15:37.840 Like, and thinking back on just like the sort of daily um crossing of the boundary and and the fact that like, yeah, wow, actually no, 100% my body was not respected, and I was because I think you know you give a lot of space, and and I like I myself as so open to fucking nuance and understanding of context of everything, like give so much space to what could have been going on in in that dynamic, but then the more distance you have and the more clearly you see things, you're like, oh, but there were a lot of times I was saying no and stop and baby please stop. 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.639 That now I'm remembering, like, yeah, people are supposed to respect that. 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:52.159 Like you're when when when I say b stop, like stop, no, stop, when it comes to like you're touching my body, you're doing a thing to my body that I don't want you to do. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:06.639 It shouldn't have taken me this long to realize that you're supposed to respect that, especially, especially if we're like, I mean, like, no me no memes no me but give it that do that day. 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:08.000 You thought I couldn't recover? 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:09.279 Well, look at what that was. 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:10.799 Actually, genius art. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:20.720 People aren't podcasting the way that I am when I'm trying to talk about non-consensual touch and and sexual stuff. 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.240 Doing really good. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.080 Um, yeah, no means no across the board. 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:31.519 And I think it's a different, um, I don't even know how to like label it. 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.159 I I don't know. 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.840 I'm like literally thinking about it all the time or reflecting, uh reminiscing. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:51.200 Um, that's more caught positive than kind of what I'm doing, but I am recalling, um, and reunderstanding that like no is supposed to also definitely mean no in your closest, most intimate relationships. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:56.000 Um so relationships, right? 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:58.320 Here we are. 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:07.200 Um the thing is okay. 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:35.039 Part of some of the reflecting I've been doing has been about the other experiences of sex and question mark non-consent that I've experienced in my life as I view this overall rape culture, you know, um, it's not new, obviously, it's been there this whole time, but like really looking at the structural ways in which it has always been there. 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:58.240 Um, and how how much in my mind, at least I I was set up to understand sex and and touch and things as as things that happen to me, or desire is sort of things that happened to me if I were so lucky to be chosen that time, you know. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:14.880 Um anyway, I've been thinking about this experience I had at my like first job in Chicago when I was like 18 or 19, where basically this guy who was my coworker, he was a few years older than me. 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:16.240 I was new to Chicago. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:17.359 I'm trying to make friends. 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.799 We were like friends on the lawn, you know, working at the fucking coffee shop. 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:33.200 And I remember one time I was like about to finish my closing shift and I got a text from him and he lived in the neighborhood, he lived close to where our we worked, and he was like, Hey, do you wanna um come hang hang out after your shift? 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.440 And I was like, Oh yeah, definitely. 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:37.119 Like, oh yay, friends. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.200 Like, we weren't necessarily flirty vibes, we were like friends' vibes. 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:58.799 Um, and like his roommate would come in uh to the coffee shop sometimes, and you know, one of the best fun most fun things that you could do as a barista, at least if you're a girly like me, is like give people free stuff if you want to, give the friend of the friend free stuff. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:06.000 Like, that's the the two powers of the barista is the playlist and the ability to give free stuff to people if you want to. 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.759 Um, so you know, that had happened before, whatever. 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.000 I go to his house, I get there, it's like, hey, what's good? 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.599 I go inside, his roommate's there, he's there. 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.319 I'm like, oh, cool, upright base, that's cool. 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.359 Or da da doing just like huh, here I am in this nice apartment, blah, blah, blah. 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:31.920 My co-worker's not there for more than really like five minutes before he's like, All right, I gotta go. 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.359 I'm uh I gotta go to work. 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:34.559 I'm like, wait, what? 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.640 He's like, Yeah, I'm closing tonight. 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.839 I'm like, what wait, what? 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:44.240 Like, then why did you and he's gone. 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.079 Backpack gone. 00:19:46.400 --> 00:20:01.279 And then it's just me and his roommate, and his roommate's looking at me in a way, and it's the sort of thing, like, I don't even know how it begins. 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:04.079 I'm probably like, oh whatever. 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:14.240 Then then he's making out with me, and I remember being so confused, being like, wait, what? 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:25.039 Like, and in my mind, like as he's making out with me and like pulling me onto the couch on top of him, I'm like flashing to like me giving him free coffee. 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:26.079 I'm like, was that it? 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:27.279 Was it the free coffee? 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:28.880 Was that was that

an invitation? 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.680 Was that was that me saying that I wanted to have sex with him? 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:38.240 Was that was it what it was me talking to my coworker about like boys and dating stuff? 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:44.880 And like, was that me telling him that I w that I wanted to have sex with this guy? 00:20:45.200 --> 00:21:06.720 And he's making and and he's touching and it's all the things, and he's uh you know, hands everywhere, and it's like rough, and it's and I'm like, I'm kind of like, I don't know, like um, and he's very much doing like, you know, and and I'm so sorry to like any women that are listening. 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:26.400 I you know, this gender and whatever, but like if you've experienced stuff like this and this is like hard to listen to, I'm sorry, but I do think like I just don't know how many like men or like you know, non-femme people like understand these types of like moments or have like heard these types of stories. 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:35.119 And I do think that there's like a lot of boys who be listening to my podcast, so like, anyways, I don't know why I'm anyways, it's it's even it's uncomfortable for me to talk about. 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:40.079 Like it's a horrible um thing that happened, but I do think it's relevant to share. 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:48.799 Um so he's you know, hands all over me, and he's like, um, you know, like you know you want it. 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:54.160 And then like in your in my in my mind, and he's big guy and whatever. 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:58.319 And uh I'm like, did I want did I want it? 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:00.880 He's he says, I know I I want it. 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:07.519 I thought I was coming over here to just hang out with my coworker, maybe my coworker and him, but no, and he's gone. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.680 And why did my coworker leave me here? 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.200 What's the what the trap, trap, trap? 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:19.359 And at some point, you know, he's like, I I kind of push off of him. 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:24.960 And I will never forget how I left that place. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.079 Cause I was like, I was like, I don't know. 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.000 I'm sorry, like, um, I'm just kind of like, I'm so gross right now. 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:35.039 Like, I'm like, I'm actually kind of I'm getting like kind of sick right now. 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:36.720 Like, I'm just really gross. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:37.680 Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:38.559 I just can't do this right now. 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.839 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.759 Like I said, I'm sorry like 15 times on the way out, fumbling with the door. 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.079 Like, I'm sorry, I'm just like, I'm like really gross right now. 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.720 I kept saying, like, I'm really gross right now. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.880 And I'm sorry. 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:58.720 Because even I feel like in the back of my mind, it was like, if this were to happen to me, it's like, well, I didn't like shower or shave or anything. 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.799 And it's like, I because I wasn't having sex today. 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:09.119 Anyways, I got out of there. 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:12.319 That was lucky. 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:22.160 Um, I was really, really confused about how any of that happened. 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:32.000 Um I felt really betrayed, obviously, by this guy who like I thought was my friend. 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:40.960 Um and I remember like calling my mom and being like, I feel like something bad happened. 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.000 I feel like something, I was like, something like weird kind of just happened. 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:45.440 Like something was like weird. 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.359 And it's like, yeah, that was you just got like fully like trapped. 00:23:49.599 --> 00:24:00.240 Um, and so the concept of feeling trapped is definitely like thematic in my life, trapped in the subway, trapped in the trapped in in a coworker's apartment. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:30.319 Um the reason I bring that up is that I just know that putting a man in jail for rape, sexual assault, any of this gender-based harm does not solve that, right? 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:42.559 The culture, whatever made that guy and that guy think that that was what was even if I sought my resent revenge on both of them. 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:49.279 Basically, my question is how many men in jail before rape ends? 00:24:51.839 --> 00:25:21.920 And the math doesn't math because the same system that is actually upholding the rape culture that is foundational to this country, to this, to to the operation of this, you know, civilization based upon fucking colonization, and what is colonization if not rape at its base? 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:34.000 What is capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy, if not rape, on structural levels? 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:41.519 They are all predicated on dehumanization. 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.279 They all require dehumanization. 00:25:45.519 --> 00:26:04.240 And this is why, you know, when people try to separate capitalism, patriarchy, and white supremacy like from each other, it's boggles my mind because they're all they need each other to survive, right? 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:23.279 And in the interest as and as an abolitionist, and this is where it becomes really, really important to me, um, and I know I'm not the only like abolitionist and an abolitionist like femme woman person um speaking to this, I'm just speaking to it with my experience. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:51.680 Like, it is so important that we don't let abolition fall apart when it comes to gender-based harm because the same system that can lock up a woman for getting an abortion because of the rape that happened to her will never be the same system that can give us accountability for the

harm of rape. 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.039 It just it just can't. 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:05.680 Rape culture is upheld it is foundational to the patriarchy, right? 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:18.160 And the carceral system is inherently upholding of that same patriarchy. 00:27:18.720 --> 00:28:14.240 So while I understand that accountability for this type of harm is like so necessary, and it's so necessary to center the survivors of that harm and center the survivors of that harm who have been surviving it systemically for centuries, right, on a structural level, who who have continued to be groups who have continued to be dehumanized on structural levels, and yes, that is white supremacy, and you cannot separate it because slavery being another of colonization and slavery just being you know expressions of each other onto different groups. 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.519 I don't understand that this is not controversial. 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.559 This is really not, this is not a crazy thing. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:31.119 But when we dehumanize the body, that is how you get slavery, cap w capitalism, patriarchy. 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:43.839 It's important that we center the survivors of gender-based and sexually based violence in our considerations of accountability. 00:28:44.799 --> 00:29:03.759 And this is where I understand the deep hurt and the system-wide dysregulation of emotions and nervous system after this type of violence has happened to you. 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.240 I understand it explicitly intimately. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:18.000 But the justice system that we have is based on punitive revenge, right? 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:25.839 And the thing about revenge, because it's like you harmed me, now you will be harmed through this system. 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:52.480 And this is where, you know, like when abolitionists call lock him up and cancel XYZ when when a man has done, you know, horrible sexual harm, it confuses me because it centers the perpetrator of harm. 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.400 Like to me, revenge is not repair. 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.079 Revenge actually centers the perpetrator of harm. 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.680 It's not actually centering the survivor. 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:16.559 Like, no matter what bad things I could wish upon the men who have done bad things to me, I will still be stuck with all of that shit in my body. 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:33.359 And I will have spent energy on them, on how to make sure they feel maybe as bad as I felt. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.960 And yeah, I mean, prison does that. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:58.640 Prison perpetuates rape like in a way that I I just as tough as these conversations are, they tend to actually always to me reinforce abolition as the only route to um freedom and actually true accountability for harm. 00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:03.279 Because truly, how many men in jail before rape ends? 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:11.039 Like, if if crime were to be solved through jail, um, why wouldn't it have have ended yet? 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.920 Like, I just I don't understand how you sort of rationalize outside of that. 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:32.079 Now, I think that there are a lot of people who agree that prison is not um real justice, but the harm against women and children is so outrageous that we don't know where else to put it. 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:34.640 We don't know where else to put that feeling. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:32:00.880 But I think it's so, so integral that we recenter abolition as the only means for accountability because frankly, the only way to get less harm against women and children, to get less violence, domestic, interpersonal, sexual violence, is to uproot rape culture itself. 00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.200 How do you uproot rape culture itself? 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:09.440 You look at the core, the core of colonization, the core of patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy. 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:11.920 I'm sorry you keep saying it, but it's just true. 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.039 I can't apologize, it's just true. 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:29.119 And when we continue to satiate by throwing people in prison who have done horrible crimes, we continue to avoid the hard question of what does accountability look like outside of this system. 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:31.599 But we have to, it's integral. 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.559 This system is one of the main enforcers of these agendas. 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:42.079 Like, abolition requires decolonization of the mind. 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:50.480 And what is decolonization of the mind, if not removal of the rape culture from your mind. 00:32:50.720 --> 00:33:04.720 Like the moment you become anti-capitalist, you have to be acknowledging like truly anti-capitalists, you know, and people throw this shit around about class, well, no war, but class where all this shit. 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:17.039 And and I can all and listen, I speak to a lot of this as a person who knows a lot of people who are smarter than me, who has I I'm not, I'm I'm not so fucking book smart. 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:31.200 Like, I I look at a lot of this as really human, and there's the sort of things that like some some type of knowledge should just unlock a key for you, and at least it has for me, and I'm just gonna keep trying to fucking do it whatever way I can, right? 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:56.480 And to me, like when you confront capitalism for what it really is, you have to be looking at how it necessitates the dehumanization of one group for the security of another. 00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:11.119 This is why you cannot skip white supremacy because slavery and the genocide of the indigenous colonization is the pure it is that. 00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:12.559 That is what it is. 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.079 That is what it is. 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:37.039 And when we continue to sort of talk about these things as broad concepts and not really bring them into

the hyper interpersonal, into how we are viewing each other relationally, into how we are viewing accountability, then we're not actually uprooting shit. 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:55.199 And we need to be uprooting all of it because this state that is the enforcer of fascism, white supremacy, capitalism, you cannot ask for safety from it and it will never give it to you. 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:59.360 The justice system has no interest in true accountability. 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:00.800 And what is true accountability? 00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:03.360 You know what it's really fucking personal, and that's the thing. 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:09.199 I know that when we have these conversations, and it's it's this is what I've experienced recently. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:18.000 It's like, oh man, when you bring up the question, if you like, if you start to just challenge the thing, people really want you to answer it. 00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:28.400 They don't wanna sit with it, they don't want to think about it, they don't want to figure out what their own answers are for themselves, but that's the whole fucking point. 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:50.159 Abolition is about uprooting these systems of dehumanization, discarding them in place for something that we build together that centers the most vulnerable in our communities. 00:35:50.400 --> 00:36:09.280 And the only way to get the answer to what that is is to be being in community with each other and talking to each other about what our needs are and communicating what accountability, and here's the thing, frankly, I because I've been asking myself this, right? 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:16.960 We'll do, you know, you know, you know, we'll do a real simple one, a real cut and dry one, one that people might have wanted me to call the police on, right? 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:18.159 Like my punch, right? 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:19.599 The guy who punched me. 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:22.719 What's accountability look like for me for that? 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:40.000 I think accountability for me looks like that I didn't have to check both Lyft and Uber to see who was cheaper to take a ride to the ER after I realized like my nose was probably broken. 00:36:40.719 --> 00:37:07.360 Accountability to me would be I didn't have to the first person that I called, literally the first person that I called after the most traumatic um like sort of random life events that happened to my face uh and my body and my sphere was my boss at the West Village cafe that I was on my way to go to work to um to make sure that he could get someone to cover my shift. 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:16.320 Accountability to me looks like whatever made that guy punch me in the face. 00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:42.639 And he was talking to himself, even though I remain convinced that he, you know, like many people who are experiencing houselessness, who are experiencing um, you know, substance uh abuse and undiagnosed, untreated, whatever the fuck, mental health issues, um accountability to me would be he gets care, I get care. 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:50.480 Both of the things that altered both of our brain chemistries gets care because I'm interested in repair. 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:55.679 Um, because that is what continues to make me able to live. 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.360 That is what I'm I'm here for life. 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:01.280 I don't want him to die. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.760 I don't want him to experience suffering because that doesn't really do anything for me. 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:15.840 And you know, and I and that and that is me, and I understand that not everybody is going to feel that way. 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:29.039 And I don't want to ever sound like I am an apologist for anyone who's committing this type of harm, but I am just somebody who's looking, I'm trying to look at the whole thing. 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:55.920 And I know that the more that we delay the understanding of how to be accountable to each other in community, and and and the more we continue to just flick men into the prison industrial complex, further dehumanizing them to become prison slave laborers, that only reinforces the patriarchy that the rape culture is hinging on. 00:38:56.159 --> 00:39:06.400 That only continues to allow for a status quo in which my old coworker thinks it was okay to like leave me with his roommate with an expectation to have sex with him. 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:23.039 You know, like I just know that there's a lot of men in jail right now for for sexual crimes and and and violent crimes against women, and there's a lot of that happening every single day still, all the time. 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:39.599 And we can think that it's really fucked that these people, these white men in power who have done this harm on such unimaginable scales, we can think it's really fucked up that they are not behind bars. 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:42.159 And I'm not gonna take that from you. 00:39:42.320 --> 00:40:01.679 Um, but we have to also understand that even if we got that, the this culture will continue and it will not be the thing to prevent the harm from happening to the next uh woman child person at all. 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.480 Um yeah. 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:08.239 Is there other stuff I wanted to talk about? 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.199 There's a lot of stuff I wanted to talk about. 00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:13.519 This has just really been on my mind. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:37.920 I think like decolonization is kind of everything, and once you realize that every structure that's oppressing you is kind of hinging on um non-consent, like I think that should change shit for you, you know, even the way that you experience and heal from harm. 00:40:38.159 --> 00:41:00.480 Because that's the thing, like I have done nothing but be thinking and trying to feel trying to tap into my body and and listen and and respect it because I definitely want to think my way out of all of the

the traumas that have happened to my body. 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:07.280 Um and the thing that's the thing, it's all very highly personal. 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:30.480 Like, did this harm happen and now I'm being forced to really confront my body and how to reassert agency over it, um, and experience life and experience pleasure and um and and learn how to set boundaries that make me feel safe and make me feel free. 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:31.920 Like, yeah, that sucks. 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:32.559 You know what? 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.400 I never did it before. 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:35.840 I never did it before. 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:49.199 I'm not thanking all of the harm, but I'm gonna say that at least for me, and I think probably a lot of women around my age, and probably a lot of women before, because we're young in this. 00:41:49.360 --> 00:42:18.639 That's the thing we have to understand is whatever wave of fucking, I don't even feminism or whatever, whatever wave of understanding we are um when it comes to uh gender-based harm, it's young because I know that the things my mom grew up with and the rules that she grew up with were fucked, and that the rules that her mom grew up with were fucked, and I know that the rules that I grew up with was fucked, were fucked. 00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:58.559 And I know that I would say most of my sexual encounters were things that felt like they happened to me more than I like was in control over, and and I know that the the moment I was, you know, f 14, 13, 14, when I got, you know, my period, I go went got went through puberty, had hips, um, you know, I was kissed at, sexualized by old men driving by, on the street, in the public. 00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:09.599 Like I'm really starting to understand how my own sexuality um maybe never was my own. 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:36.400 And that was both like cultural, like that was both the culture was telling me what was beautiful and what was desirable and what was allowed and what was bad, and who was who was kind of a bitch or a tease or a this or a that for for allowing what kinds of access and not to your body. 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:41.599 Um and yeah, let's just say it's been really humbling. 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:45.039 It's been pretty crazy to think about. 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:48.320 But I think it's important. 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:59.840 Um because to me it's really showing me how much of a status quo it has and continues to be. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:11.599 This um dominance over women and children's bodies that is just structural at this point. 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.760 Or I mean, not at this point, it's been structural, right? 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:55.599 It's been structural and the way that we just outsource our outrage when it comes to this kind of violence towards these like sort of big symbolic evils, the rape website, the you know, recent shootings, like these horrible stories that the media does actually want us to pay attention to in certain ways, right? 00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:00.719 They want us to see it in certain ways because they want us to feel unsafe. 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:04.800 They want us hyper-vigilant, they want us traumatized, and we are. 00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:06.800 Hey, that's the thing, media. 00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:08.079 Don't worry about it. 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.000 We are already way the fuck ahead of you. 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:26.960 But the missing part of those stories is really does end up being the survivors of that harm or the people who didn't survive, right? 00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:37.920 I want more survivors, I want more living. 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:49.039 I think we have a very unique opportunity in this moment to uproot a lot of belief systems. 00:45:49.840 --> 00:46:06.800 And I think that people's access to each other and different perspectives and understandings of the interconnectedness of this type of global domination and exploitation in every way, right? 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:44.239 Like to have this phone and probably everything that I'm using right now, it's predicated on rape, on the on the pillaging of the land, on the exploitation of the people in the places that they want us to feel we are not the same as they want us to dehumanize a group for the safety of ourselves. 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:47.119 Does it sound familiar? 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:54.000 Do I have all the fucking answers of how to unravel it? 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:54.639 No. 00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.719 Do I think we collectively do? 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:00.000 Yes. 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:19.280 Do I think we collectively are helping ourselves when we get caught up in the trap of revenge instead of accountability, instead of true justice? 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.719 Yeah, I think it's really a big fucking distraction. 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:30.719 And I think they want us to do anything but realize that we hold the answers to how to prevent harm for each other. 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.840 And not the police and not prison. 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:41.440 And I just, I just want to present at least the paradox. 00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:43.360 The is that the word? 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:46.960 The juxtaposition of these things. 00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:51.440 I guess this wasn't funny at all. 00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.639 I'm looking at my little whiteboard of which I have so many notes, but it's too far away. 00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:04.559 You know, like like another funny thing, like another funny thing about all of this is how like I really don't actually like want to record my pod. 00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:13.840 Like, I can do these podcasts here, but I realize like I don't want to record my podcast out of my apartment because frankly, I don't want everybody to know my to have my address. 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.119 And it's like, you know, I don't a lot of people I have on my show I'm friends with, but not everyone. 00:48:19.440 -->

00:48:21.760 And you just absolutely simply never know. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:52.559 And that now that's a horrible thing to say, but it's actually just a trauma-informed um thing to say, you know, it's like these things don't go away, they're actually in every corner of life if you've experienced them, and even if you haven't experienced them directly, even if you think, let me say that, even if you think you haven't experienced a violent type of non-consensual act on you, you have. 00:48:53.039 --> 00:49:01.199 We kind of all are every day, and we have to take that shit seriously, and we have to ask ourselves what is gonna stop it? 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:08.000 And is the perpetuation of it in the form of a prison going to do that? 00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:13.760 Anyways, I think I've maybe repeating myself, and and I I'm very I don't want to make anyone mad. 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:19.920 I don't want to make anyone mad, especially not people who have experienced like horrible, horrible harm. 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:30.079 And I just really don't want anyone to think that I'm ever undermining how horrible um and life-altering that type of trauma is. 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:38.000 The type of trauma that happens to you when your body has been violated is so surreal. 00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:40.800 It's so surreal, it takes you out of yourself. 00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:46.800 Um it's it's crazy to see you don't, I you can't see the world differently. 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.320 You can't see the world the same after that's happened to you, I think. 00:49:52.719 --> 00:50:00.400 Um that is horrible. 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:02.000 I'm not gonna discount that. 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:02.639 It sucks. 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.599 Uh it's something I'm working through every single fucking day. 00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:08.000 It's it's it's like a it's like a loop. 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:12.639 It's like a loop of like things that would make me feel good also also don't. 00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:37.280 They also make me feel scared, like like maybe walking down the street and listening to music on my on headphones, like so loud is is therapeutic and good, but actually I can't anymore because hypervigilance, because I can't have someone walk by behind me and scare me, and I have to have at least one one one ear out, and and you know, and pleasure, and I want pleasure and sex and and connection and intimacy, but wow, how scary is that? 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:40.559 Because that's my that's my body, and and and and how am I gonna be sure? 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:44.719 How am I gonna be how how am I gonna know that that person's not gonna violate it? 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:52.079 And and if I if I stand up for myself, if if if if I if I try to set a rule, how am I gonna be sure that that person's not gonna be mad? 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:56.559 And how am I gonna be sure that the person's not gonna be mad and take it out on me and my body? 00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:03.119 And and how am I gonna not be sure, how am I gonna be sure that that's not gonna change my whole life? 00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.840 Yeah, like that's a do-be what it's like. 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:23.840 And that's exactly why the normalization of non-consent needs to be uprooted in every single fucking form because when we allow it in one way, we are in another way allowing it. 00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:40.000 Like we we are we we are setting a standard of dehumanization as okay, and it's not, and um we'll get nowhere if we don't confront it as exactly that. 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:58.239 I would love for anyone who has experienced um this type of harm to think about what they would have needed the most when that happened and what they continue to need. 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:08.559 And I want everyone to wonder like why we don't have systems that support that, you know? 00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:26.000 Because right now we have systems that say, okay, this harm happened to you, now we're gonna go get that guy and do the and be like and and get him and and put him in jail or say no no and and do this, but now what for for you and your body and your brain. 00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:46.239 Um and I think when we work from that angle, we start to understand what accountability could look like and systems that could exist um to hold the person that needs holding after that has been done. 00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:50.880 Like I'm interested in healing across the board. 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:53.199 That's what abolition is also about. 00:52:53.440 --> 00:53:20.159 Abolition is about tearing it down, abolishing the state that is founded on oppression and dehumanization, healing that wound in order to get the type of interpersonal structural support that we need to thrive as people, as communities, as a fucking species, dude. 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:24.239 Because this isn't sustainable at all. 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:31.679 I was gonna try to make this short and I kept talking, but I'll end it on like a fun light note though. 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:37.280 I'll say I've been thinking about all of this stuff like deeply, heavily. 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.239 I've been crying. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:51.519 That's I think that's why I've been crying, maybe, because I've been like I've been crying and laughing, laughing so much harder than I've laughed, like at things like some things are just making me laugh so fucking hard, and I like really feel it, like a difference, you know. 00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:53.440 Um, and then I'm crying too. 00:53:53.760 --> 00:54:31.360 I'm feeling more in my body, um, and I'm trying to like listen to it more, and I'm having more opportunities to like integrate all of this stuff that I've realized about myself and my life and and the ways that this culture of white supremacy and rape have informed the way that I view myself and view myself in relationship to other people, to other women, to other men, to people in general,

to to to life, right? 00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:42.159 Um, and it's wild once you realize like, oh, all of that stuff was based in pedophilia and absolutely um oppression and untruth. 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:57.920 And like my beauty was never um in the hands of uh white supremacists, pedophile, billionaire capitalists to determine. 00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:02.159 And they actually were never the ones to give me um agency or not. 00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:10.800 It was actually always supposed to be born of myself, and they actually never set the rules for what was okay for people to do to me or my body. 00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:13.440 Um I I I I do. 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:18.320 I did I I didn't know it then, but I know it now. 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:43.039 And getting opportunities to do that and having experiences of like, oh wait, safety is it's supposed it could feel this way to be this way with somebody, huh? 00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:52.079 Did it know that's nice, good stuff, and we should keep doing that. 00:55:52.320 --> 00:56:08.800 And when and when and when and and and when we start to figure out at the same time as what accountability looks like for us, when we start to figure out really what safety feels like for us, and me realizing that freedom and and then it's and to that's the thing. 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:17.599 This is my experience of it specifically because of my life, but I think probably for everybody to be free is to be safe, to be safe is to be free. 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.280 I need the two at the same time. 00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:20.960 What do they look like? 00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:40.400 It's a question my therapist asked me as I was discussing what um how I feel like I need um to feel free and also safe in uh intimate relationships, both both platonic and romantic and sexual and and whatever, every relationship, like that's what I'm striving for. 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:42.400 And she says, Okay, but what does that look like for you? 00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:43.599 I say, hmm, question. 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.039 Big, nice big question. 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:46.639 Have I felt it before? 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.280 Is it something that I'm building? 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:59.760 Um and I realize, like, yeah, I think you can work backwards and sort of be like, when have I felt unsafe? 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:12.559 And when have I felt looking back now, you know, because I think when you're in it, when you're in a status quo of unsafety, it's really hard to notice it because that's what your your your world is small around you. 00:57:12.639 --> 00:57:13.280 That's what you see. 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:21.760 Um, perception is reality, that's what you see, and that has become normal because of time or whatever it is, right? 00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:34.400 Um, for me, it was just like time in this relationship that like my normal was degraded um because of you know, manipulation, abuse, violence in the home, etc. 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:35.840 Um, okay. 00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:40.719 Uh so I asked myself, what does freedom look like? 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:42.239 Like what what would that feel? 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:44.639 Have I a have I felt it? 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.199 In what relationships do I feel it? 00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:50.800 What's different about those relationships than other relationships? 00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:52.559 What's the criteria? 00:57:52.880 --> 00:58:31.119 For me, at the very least, one of the things that I've realized is for me to feel free, I need to feel safe to be myself and stand up for myself and have conflict with a person in a dynamic without fear of punishment, without fear of punishment, without fear of, you know, some sort of violent, like some sort of repercussion that makes me feel unsafe. 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:35.280 And, you know, I think we all have our line for for what that is. 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:37.599 Like I'm a realist. 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:46.159 I do not think that you know, doing abolition equals that, like all the like immediately all the harm is gone, no more conflict. 00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:48.079 You know, I'm not stupid. 00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:50.960 I think conflict revolu resolution is the whole fucking point. 00:58:51.199 --> 00:59:00.559 Conflict resolution figuring out how to be at odds with each other without making each other unsafe is kind of like the point. 00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:12.159 And I think we can do it, and I think it's tough stuff at first, but then also the the benefits that you could reap is like it's like everything actually. 00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:25.119 I want to feel free, I want to feel safe, I want to feel like I can say yes and no to the people closest to me. 00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:34.719 And I want to feel like they can respect that, and I want that to actually just be the status quo for how we treat each other in general. 00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.039 I want no more non-consent. 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:46.800 I think people are starting to slowly but surely wake up to this idea of manufactured consent and like, yeah, it's all around. 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.320 So what if we started to take it back? 00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:57.760 I actually did not consent to you telling me what accountability looks like for me. 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:03.920 I actually did not consent to a judge being able to tell me what is best for my body. 01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:18.000 I didn't actually consent to the government to tell me what justice looks like, especially when it only comes after the fact of the harm that's happened to me. 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:26.559 So yeah, abolition doesn't mean no accountability, it actually means accountability. 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:29.840 I guess I'll stop this now. 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:33.199 I hope this has made sense. 01:00:33.360 --> 01:00:42.400 I hope this has not made anyone um feel like I don't give a fuck about survivors because like I really do. 01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:43.519 I do it for us. 01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:45.039 Like that's the whole point. 01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:46.159 That's the whole point. 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:49.760 I'm trying to send I'm that I want I wanna I want life. 01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:51.760 I I want fucking life. 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.400 I want life and not dehumanization. 01:00:54.480 --> 01:01:04.880 And the thing is, is ultimately they need you to be okay with dehumanization for their grand fucking plans, and you know they're not good. 01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:26.800 Figure out what's going on weird in your friend groups, what's gone gone on weird in you know your relationships, and question how these systems have played a part in your understanding of how to deal with that conflict. 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:40.719 And consider that maybe those are there for you to stay oppressing yourself because they really don't want us to figure this shit out. 01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:47.280 They really want us to yell, lock him up when the horrible crime has happened. 01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:51.199 It helps them keep the mission alive. 01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:54.480 And I do not consent.