Developing Digital Experiences with Heart의 전체 녹취록

understand like, OK, where were you, 00:03:57.259 --> 00:04:00.139 you know, as a kid that potentially may have 00:04:00.139 --> 00:04:01.780 led to where you are now? And I love how you 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:04.080 talk about, you know, sort of making sure that, 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.599 you know, your your children have those opportunities 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.680 that maybe you didn't have when you were a kid 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:11.800 and, you know, allowing them to sort of find 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:16.089 their true selves in a. better way ideally than 00:04:16.089 --> 00:04:18.750 where we may have come from yeah definitely so 00:04:18.750 --> 00:04:20.889 i kind of i'm curious to sort of start out with 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:24.029 like little chris plum oh yeah like 12 year old 00:04:24.029 --> 00:04:26.949 chris yeah no little 12 year old chris wanted 00:04:26.949 --> 00:04:32.230 nothing more than to be on stage playing guitar 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:37.089 in a rock band for you know 30 000 plus fans 00:04:37.089 --> 00:04:41.990 and as a recovering codependent who no longer 00:04:41.990 --> 00:04:45.750 needs And like has to have that external validation. 00:04:47.149 --> 00:04:49.430 That's not as important to me anymore as it was 00:04:49.430 --> 00:04:51.370 when I was 12. But I still do think about it. 00:04:51.389 --> 00:04:53.649 I still do play and put out a lot of music. But, 00:04:53.649 --> 00:04:57.170 you know, as a little kid, there are all these 00:04:57.170 --> 00:04:58.589 different things you want to be when you grow 00:04:58.589 --> 00:05:00.490 up. And for me, it was like I want to be a rock 00:05:00.490 --> 00:05:04.209 star. But I also want to be a famous comic book 00:05:04.209 --> 00:05:06.149 illustrator. But I also want to be a writer. 00:05:06.230 --> 00:05:08.870 But I also want to make movies. And like, you 00:05:08.870 --> 00:05:12.620 know, you can. have a lot of crossover among 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:16.959 those things um being an expert in all of them 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:20.899 takes a very unique person with a lot of support 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:23.680 i'm very fortunate that i had the support that 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:28.139 i did i feel like and i try to have gratitude 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:31.959 for this as often as i can remember not everybody 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:34.660 gets the same opportunities or the same level 00:05:34.660 --> 00:05:37.660 of support. Both of my parents were lawyers and 00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:41.360 they supported me wanting to go to art school. 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.040 And figure out what a career with a degree in 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.800 art and design looks like. I had friends in high 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.000 school who wanted to do the same thing and be 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.800 professional illustrators. And their parents 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.079 were like, uh -uh, no way. You will never make 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:56.579

a living. You'll have a miserable life. You can 00:05:56.579 --> 00:06:00.379 be a doctor. You can be a lawyer. You know, very 00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:02.920 traditional things. I have friends who are those 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.300 things and are very successful and enjoy it. 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.300 I have friends who wanted to be artists and continue 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:12.300 to be artists. They had to go about things in 00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:15.060 a different path. So first and foremost, little 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:17.000 Chris was very supported. My parents were like, 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.139 don't go to law school, draw pictures and make 00:06:19.139 --> 00:06:22.279 noise. We'll figure it out. So make noise. Yeah. 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.939 But yeah, I'm really lucky that in western suburbs 00:06:27.939 --> 00:06:30.959 of Chicago, where I grew up, my middle school 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.920 had a really amazing G4. mac lab and we had like 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:38.740 i don't even remember what version it was but 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:42.199 early early photoshop and we had a scanner and 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.500 we had a cool art teacher who was like you can 00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:48.120 take pictures and scan them and chop them up 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.740 and play with the levels and apply filters and 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:53.560 you can make these like really interesting digital 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:58.610 collages and i was immediately obsessed um I 00:06:58.610 --> 00:07:00.470 felt like a little kid with my Super Nintendo 00:07:00.470 --> 00:07:02.829 doing Mario paint. It's like you can make art 00:07:02.829 --> 00:07:05.810 with a computer. This is so weird. So that was 00:07:05.810 --> 00:07:09.129 my introduction to what I ended up deciding I 00:07:09.129 --> 00:07:12.089 wanted to study as I got older. I always liked 00:07:12.089 --> 00:07:18.160 drawing. I always liked different. album covers 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.420 that had these mixed media sort of assemblages 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:26.579 of things by celebrity designers like David Carson, 00:07:26.699 --> 00:07:30.019 who did a lot of album design for bands like 00:07:30.019 --> 00:07:34.800 Bush and Nine Inch Nails. Dave McKean, who is 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.600 known for the covers he did for the DC Vertigo 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.399 comic Sandman. He also did a lot of album art 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.100 for like these agro industrial and metal bands. 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:50.259 Weird combinations of paint and drawing and photography 00:07:50.259 --> 00:07:53.000 and digital illustrations. And so that's kind 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.199 of where like this nexus of my love for music 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.980 and my interest in graphic art really started 00:07:57.980 --> 00:08:04.240 to, you know, appear. Took some college credit 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.839 courses at School of the Art Institute of Chicago 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:09.860 in between years in high school. Thanks, mom, 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:12.920 for finding that program and signing me up for 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.920 it. Did some internships working for companies 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:19.040 doing a little bit more traditional graphic design. 00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:22.899 But in my meantime, in my personal time, you 00:08:22.899 --> 00:08:24.740 know, I had a student's license for Photoshop 00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:27.660 and I was like crushing up leaves and putting 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:30.959 them in plastic bags and scanning them and making 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.860 all kinds of weird stuff. Senior year of high 00:08:34.860 --> 00:08:39.279 school, I took AP Studio Art and I graduated 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.639 high school in 2002. I was the first student. 00:08:43.610 --> 00:08:47.429 At that school whose entire portfolio was like 00:08:47.429 --> 00:08:50.730 digital work. Really? Oh, wow. You know, so it 00:08:50.730 --> 00:08:52.649 was always funny. I was like, they got to know 00:08:52.649 --> 00:08:54.409 me at the local Kinko's. Like, here comes the 00:08:54.409 --> 00:08:57.190 weird high school kid with purple hair who wears 00:08:57.190 --> 00:08:59.610 all black, who's like printing out another like 00:08:59.610 --> 00:09:04.049 40 by 50 poster of like, you know, people lying 00:09:04.049 --> 00:09:06.909 on the bathroom floor with like, you know, weird 00:09:06.909 --> 00:09:09.730 stuff all around them. But that was really fun. 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.039 Went to U of M School of Art and Design, continued 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:20.100 to broaden, you know, my skill set, their curriculum, 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.539 encourage students to try lots and lots of different 00:09:22.539 --> 00:09:25.899 things. It was mandatory, actually. But I still 00:09:25.899 --> 00:09:28.620 knew at the end of the day, I want to make these 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:32.679 things that cross over between like physical 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:38.830 and digital. Somewhere in there. You know, you've 00:09:38.830 --> 00:09:40.889 actually heard this. When we worked at Duo and 00:09:40.889 --> 00:09:43.590 we did our origin story presentations, the whole 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:47.149 irony of the left turn that my career took, which 00:09:47.149 --> 00:09:51.309 led into web development, is that senior year 00:09:51.309 --> 00:09:54.070 when I was taking AP Studio Art, I didn't sign 00:09:54.070 --> 00:09:57.190 up for any math classes. And I had a high school 00:09:57.190 --> 00:09:59.269 counselor who was very well -intentioned but 00:09:59.269 --> 00:10:01.269 was very traditional and was like, you can't 00:10:01.269 --> 00:10:04.519 expect to. Go to a good school and get a good 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:06.480 education if you don't take math. And I was like, 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:08.480 I want to go to art school. I'm fine with it. 00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:12.100 She was like,

well, you know, you did really 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:16.669 well in. Computer math one and two, which was 00:10:16.669 --> 00:10:18.970 the way I escaped math junior year. Computer 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:22.730 math one was intro to HTML and CSS and computer 00:10:22.730 --> 00:10:26.509 math two was JavaScript and like basic C++. And 00:10:26.509 --> 00:10:29.789 she was like, oh, you weird art kid who knows 00:10:29.789 --> 00:10:31.870 what you want to do. I'm not used to this. Like, 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:33.950 you know, computers, you need a math credit. 00:10:34.029 --> 00:10:36.750 You did well enough that you can take AP computer 00:10:36.750 --> 00:10:40.789 science one and two. Disclosure. I am not an 00:10:40.789 --> 00:10:43.370 application programmer in the traditional sense. 00:10:44.429 --> 00:10:47.330 Passion for it. I've learned. I liked making 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:50.330 websites because there's instant visual feedback. 00:10:51.350 --> 00:10:54.529 So I struggled through the first semester of 00:10:54.529 --> 00:11:00.210 this AP CS class and I really struggled through 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:02.590 the second one. I realized that my peers in that 00:11:02.590 --> 00:11:06.049 class would go home and program for fun and I 00:11:06.049 --> 00:11:08.450 would go home and take digital pictures and play 00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:12.230 guitar and mash stuff up on my computer and just 00:11:12.230 --> 00:11:15.340 make weird stuff for fun. You don't play with 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:19.080 numbers for fun. Right. My stepfather was an 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.240 application engineer and he did the best he could 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:26.879 to help me. But I barely passed APCS2, which 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.159 didn't look very good. You know, second semester, 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.519 senior year, good grades across the board. And 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.759 then this like mercy D minus. I've been there. 00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:40.980 Which threatened my acceptance to U of M School 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:43.039 of Art and Design. I had to write a huge essay 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.659 defending myself, get letters of support from 00:11:46.659 --> 00:11:50.279 other teachers and professors and people I had 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.509 worked with saying like. This is where like my 00:11:53.509 --> 00:11:56.029 parents influences attorneys came in. I argued 00:11:56.029 --> 00:11:59.789 that taking the mercy D minus and doing the best 00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:02.269 I could was a personal success because the other 00:12:02.269 --> 00:12:03.889 option that was given to me was like you could 00:12:03.889 --> 00:12:05.649 withdraw fail the class. I was like, well, I 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:09.230 don't want that. So go through all of art school 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:12.460 study, you know, digital art and design. work 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:15.279 as a graphic designer and slowly over time i 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.240 evolved into like full -time front -end web developer 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.879 and i was like oh my god i've come full circle 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.879 i always told myself you can't do anything with 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:25.960 computers because you're not smart enough and 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.399 you don't have the love for it i just had to 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.879 sort of shift over a little bit and get more 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:37.120 into like um layout and interactivity and you 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.059 know the kind of art and design that you know 00:12:40.059 --> 00:12:45.720 is critical to a web interface. Right. So just 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.899 kind of a weird shift back and forth. And I love 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:53.960 it. I love making websites. I love trying to 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:58.779 find how art and design can make a website so 00:12:58.779 --> 00:13:01.360 much more than the kind of very templatized, 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.820 typical, you know, B2B software as a service 00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:08.340 marketing websites that we're all used to seeing. 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.620 Right. But yeah, somewhere in there, you know, 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.899 I was traditional graphic designer doing merch 00:13:14.899 --> 00:13:18.600 and swag and posters. And then finally it was 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.580 like, I'm going to do digital. This is a happy 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:24.259 place. Yeah. Maybe, maybe I am not trash and 00:13:24.259 --> 00:13:27.179 I can do more than just this. Right. I love our 00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:29.419 realizations that we're not trash. We actually 00:13:29.419 --> 00:13:31.460 have skill sets that we can, we can leverage 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.340 and people will pay us for those skills. Yeah. 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:35.990 I love that. So I kind of want to, you know, 00:13:36.029 --> 00:13:38.070 kind of thinking, you know, with that audience 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:41.289 in mind who may not know what web design is, 00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:43.269 you know, we might use the Internet every single 00:13:43.269 --> 00:13:45.429 day. We encounter so many websites, but we don't 00:13:45.429 --> 00:13:48.850 necessarily know what goes into the actual creation 00:13:48.850 --> 00:13:51.529 and development of them. And I know there's there's 00:13:51.529 --> 00:13:53.870 so many ways to create websites now. But from 00:13:53.870 --> 00:13:56.440 your perspective, if you. can sort of define 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.519 for our audience that difference between, you 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.139 know, what your specialty is, which is sort of 00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:04.120 that front end web developer side of things versus 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:06.639 more of the back end, which might involve more 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:09.919 of the code and the math that at least terrifies 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.379 me. Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I'll 00:14:12.379 -->

00:14:15.259 do my best to elaborate it. I think there are 00:14:15.259 --> 00:14:18.179 many people with many thoughts and definitions 00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:20.919 on what differentiates these things. And actually 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.070 in my current role, I am doing I guess what could 00:14:24.070 --> 00:14:26.590 be qualified as full stack development because 00:14:26.590 --> 00:14:28.929 I'm responsible for the entirety of the website. 00:14:29.049 --> 00:14:32.529 That includes how it's hosted, how the servers 00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:35.110 are provisioned and managed, all sorts of other 00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:39.909 stuff that I typically leaned on others to handle 00:14:39.909 --> 00:14:42.649 those things. So I'm still learning a ton now. 00:14:42.889 --> 00:14:48.500 But yeah, I mean. For me, when I think of web 00:14:48.500 --> 00:14:51.799 development in terms of front ends, I think of 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:56.519 the Holy Trinity. I think of HTML, which is your 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:02.120 markup. I think of CSS, which is what it looks 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.980 like and how it's laid out. And I think of JavaScript, 00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:10.720 which is usually, at least as far as the work 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:14.039 I do is concerned, for interaction, interactivity. 00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:17.850 Yes, there are so many frameworks and there are 00:15:17.850 --> 00:15:19.929 so many tools and so many things that have been 00:15:19.929 --> 00:15:22.590 created by the community that are open source 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:27.669 and freely available for a long time that make 00:15:27.669 --> 00:15:33.450 things much, much easier. You can spin up a website 00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:38.230 not knowing intricately or deeply the difference 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:42.419 between a div element in HTML and an... article 00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:45.120 element in html and there are people that have 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.240 kind of solved those things and it's very easy 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.179 to spin something up now you might not understand 00:15:52.179 --> 00:15:59.240 like how a css style or attribute is actually 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.759 telling the browser to change what something 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.639 looks like or what its position is because you 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:06.980 have things like tailwind css which is great 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:09.379 and i use it all the time it's a framework that 00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:13.350 allows you to get very specific and atomic and 00:16:13.350 --> 00:16:17.669 just kind of put these they're called classes 00:16:17.669 --> 00:16:22.490 on a single element that will just define like 00:16:22.490 --> 00:16:24.330 oh I want it positioned here and I want it to 00:16:24.330 --> 00:16:26.250 be this color and on hover I want it to be that 00:16:26.250 --> 00:16:28.929 color and you can just kind of stack those without 00:16:28.929 --> 00:16:32.549 ever writing a line of CSS

and it's cool but 00:16:33.389 --> 00:16:35.110 I had to learn the old school way. I had to learn 00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:37.929 from scratch. I didn't have those things. And 00:16:37.929 --> 00:16:41.029 it's like a lot of experimentation, a lot of 00:16:41.029 --> 00:16:43.590 breaking things, a lot of reading forum posts 00:16:43.590 --> 00:16:46.269 and referencing stuff. Going on the Google, the 00:16:46.269 --> 00:16:48.169 Reddit, trying to figure out, has somebody else 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:51.629 already solved this problem? Yeah. So when I 00:16:51.629 --> 00:16:54.409 think of front end, those are the things that 00:16:54.409 --> 00:16:58.610 come to mind. The opposite side. And this is 00:16:58.610 --> 00:17:00.370 where frameworks really help someone like me. 00:17:00.429 --> 00:17:02.129 Like I've mentioned before, I care a lot about 00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:07.430 layout and color and subtle, tasteful, but enjoyable 00:17:07.430 --> 00:17:14.009 interactivity. I'm not a PHP developer. What 00:17:14.009 --> 00:17:17.730 is PHP for the layperson in the room? What is 00:17:17.730 --> 00:17:23.109 PHP? I mean, there are so many different application 00:17:23.109 --> 00:17:29.250 languages that. you know, allow, um, you know, 00:17:29.250 --> 00:17:34.170 web -based software to do things. Um, PHP is 00:17:34.170 --> 00:17:38.609 something that I've always avoided, uh, my entire 00:17:38.609 --> 00:17:40.690 life. And now I'm starting to get under the hood 00:17:40.690 --> 00:17:43.309 and mess around with things. Um, the website 00:17:43.309 --> 00:17:45.730 technology that I've been using for almost the 00:17:45.730 --> 00:17:48.529 last 10 years, ironically enough, because it 00:17:48.529 --> 00:17:50.869 was never that well -known to begin with, um, 00:17:50.990 --> 00:17:54.049 the content management system is called Statomic. 00:17:54.589 --> 00:17:58.069 It's a portmanteau of the words static and dynamic. 00:17:58.589 --> 00:18:01.509 And very few people I've ever worked with have 00:18:01.509 --> 00:18:03.650 ever known that or been able to understand how 00:18:03.650 --> 00:18:06.029 to pronounce it. Today I learned, honestly. Yeah. 00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:10.690 Yeah. It wasn't always this way, but Statomic 00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:14.269 is built off of something called Laravel. Laravel. 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.779 is a framework for web applications that is built 00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:22.460 on top of PHP. So you end up with this like interesting 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:26.180 stratification of technologies that are designed 00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:28.559 and developed to simplify other technologies 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.759 that, you know, kind of obfuscate the need for 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.579 deep understanding of how everything is working. 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:39.220 So like, I feel very proficient and confident 00:18:39.220 --> 00:18:43.680 in my. html css and vanilla javascript abilities 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.059 but you know anytime something like really custom 00:18:47.059 --> 00:18:49.259 has to be made i'm just like i hope somebody 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:50.759 made an add -on for this i don't want to learn 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.000 a new thing my it hurts my brain i'm resistant 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.039 to that too much learning too much stuff in the 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:57.880 brain so i mean kind of going back to what you 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.720 said about you know you you've learned things 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.960 the old the old -fashioned way right you had 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.819 to learn html learned how to write css learn 00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:08.339 how to write javascript learned a lot by doing 00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:10.480 just by doing and breaking breaking things and 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.140 learning things is that how you would recommend 00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:14.700 somebody who's like i want to get into this can 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:17.339 i you know i know that there's platforms like 00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:19.759 webflow and oh yeah squarespace that kind of 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:21.700 automate a lot of the stuff that you just talked 00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:24.339 about but is it helpful to have that sort of 00:19:24.339 --> 00:19:27.390 fundamental foundation of knowing you know What 00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:30.170 is a div? How do I set up classes? How do I do 00:19:30.170 --> 00:19:32.710 these things by hand should I need to? Yeah, 00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:35.170 no, that's a great question. I mean, part of 00:19:35.170 --> 00:19:40.130 the thing that allowed me to make the jump from 00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:44.829 designing what a web page should look like and 00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:48.349 passing that off to an engineer to build it and 00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:50.589 finally being like, maybe I could just build 00:19:50.589 --> 00:19:55.940 it. You know, at the time. The ability to interact 00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:59.680 with a web page you're looking at in real time 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.019 and play around with the developer tools. You 00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:05.799 know, most all of the major browsers have these 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.700 built in developer tools that allow you to see 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:13.359 what is the browser looking at? What is the markup 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:18.839 on this page? And in real time, play around with 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:20.920 those things and change things and turn things 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:24.789 off and on and rearrange stuff like. Maybe those 00:20:24.789 --> 00:20:27.170 tools had existed for a while and I was just 00:20:27.170 --> 00:20:32.049 ignorant of them, but the tool set was becoming 00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:36.609 available and user friendly enough that someone 00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:38.950 like me who really doubted myself and went through 00:20:38.950 --> 00:20:43.259 this experience where I was just like, wow. This

00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:46.079 low grade and this hardcore programming class 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.519 put my entire art education at risk. I am not 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.579 smart enough or good enough to do anything hardcore 00:20:51.579 --> 00:20:54.079 with computers. It allowed me. Those were the 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.380 training wheels. I was like, you know what? I 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:58.619 can actually mess around with stuff. What is 00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:02.740 a div? Oh, it's just an element that is designating 00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:05.660 a division of space. It's kind of this generic 00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:08.079 catch -all. Oh, it can have a background color? 00:21:08.259 --> 00:21:13.640 That's weird. How do I do that? So how would 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:15.599 I recommend to someone today if they want to 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.279 learn how to make websites? I mean, this is a 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:22.259 good thing and also a frustrating thing. There's 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:24.839 like too much information out there, right? Like 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.859 how do you even get started? What's the source 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:31.279 of truth? For me, and this helped a lot back 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.480 in the day, and a lot of these people, I made 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.900 a little short list, are still doing stuff today. 00:21:37.099 --> 00:21:43.880 I am a learn by doing kind of person. I own and 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.859 have read and mostly referenced like big, thick, 00:21:48.859 --> 00:21:52.839 hard copy books about HTML, CSS and JavaScript. 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:58.140 But like reading about it is so much more different 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:02.200 than doing it. Right. Right. So there are these 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.819 like I don't know if they would want to be. Called 00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:07.660 this. I look up to them in this way, like these 00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:10.900 celebrity quote unquote developers that have 00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:13.279 just so much information out there and it's all 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.079 free. And like these people also have like classes 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.200 that you can pay for and things like that. But 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:24.319 people like Jen Simmons, who has a YouTube account 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.180 called Layout Land, and she's a developer and 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:31.900 design advocate at Mozilla. And so she's like 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:36.740 very involved in the. production of um uh the 00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:40.440 firefox web browser in terms of like is it up 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.380 to spec with like all the latest uh capabilities 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:49.019 right um you know she when when we were working 00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:53.380 together hafsa and i was um building the websites 00:22:53.380 --> 00:22:56.480 that other designers were giving me specs for 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:02.910 um css grid was new And not totally supported. 00:23:03.170 --> 00:23:06.390 And that's like the standard now. But like I 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:09.490 remember watching her YouTube channel. And she 00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:12.670 just made it so interesting. And like dare I 00:23:12.670 --> 00:23:14.869 say fun. Because she would take like these cool 00:23:14.869 --> 00:23:20.450 old like avant -garde like music posters. Like 00:23:20.450 --> 00:23:22.509 jazz posters that are on these really interesting 00:23:22.509 --> 00:23:25.930 grids. You know almost like a Mondrian kind of 00:23:25.930 --> 00:23:29.009 like spattering of colors and different squares 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:31.539 and shapes. And she would be like. I wonder if 00:23:31.539 --> 00:23:34.299 I can recreate this in CSS grid. Like, let's 00:23:34.299 --> 00:23:36.500 give it a shot. And so she would just like kind 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:39.359 of walk through her process and build stuff out 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.319 and then be like, you know, oh, how do these 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.259 columns collapse when the window and the viewport 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:46.599 gets like narrower? Like, can we make like our 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:48.500 sort of, you know, mobile, so to speak, version 00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:50.619 of this and just watching someone else do it 00:23:50.619 --> 00:23:52.480 and being like, oh, my God, this just clicked 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.180 with me. I get it now. Like, this is so cool. 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.299 And then wanting to just go try it myself. So 00:23:57.299 --> 00:24:02.539 she's great. Rachel Andrew. She had a CSS workshop 00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:06.940 course that I took with very clean, simple, easy 00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:09.900 to understand, well edited videos. Her work is 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:13.220 really good. Sarah Drasner is another one that 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:17.500 I like. And then this dude who my former mentor 00:24:17.500 --> 00:24:21.839 and manager, she turned me on to this guy, Wes 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:28.170 Boss. B -O -S. This dude has been. writing about 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:31.569 and talking about more than just front end web 00:24:31.569 --> 00:24:36.210 design like he is skilled at all kinds of application 00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:39.109 development but his tiktok channel is insane 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:42.289 nice okay like he'll put up these like little 00:24:42.289 --> 00:24:45.289 one minute clips oh i love those and he does 00:24:45.289 --> 00:24:49.779 something that i love so much he'll um and i 00:24:49.779 --> 00:24:51.700 think like sometimes people will like send him 00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:53.359 things that they see that they think are interesting 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:54.720 but he'll just like pick something that he think 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.799 he's interesting like a button uh and the button 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:01.299 has this like rotating like shiny edge that kind 00:25:01.299 -->

00:25:03.180 of shimmers and sparkles and he's like i was 00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:04.819 looking at this button on this website and i 00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:06.920 was like whoa man, how did they do that? That's 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.920 so weird. So I opened it up and I took it apart 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.500 and I actually found a way that I think is even 00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.119 more efficient and performative and easier to 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.000 do this. And then he'll just like walk through, 00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:20.299 you know, and he's got his code editor up and 00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:21.980 he's like changing stuff in real time. And I'm 00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:23.619 just sitting there like drinking it and being 00:25:23.619 --> 00:25:25.380 like, yes, yes, yes. This is awesome. I'm going 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:27.319 to go make every button look like this now on 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:29.680 my company's website. Right. That's what everyone 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.710 needs is a walk through step by step. Yeah. And 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:35.970 so many of us are visual learners. So being able 00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:38.269 to see something, you know, that practical is 00:25:38.269 --> 00:25:39.950 so helpful because it's like, oh, yeah, this 00:25:39.950 --> 00:25:41.910 is a thing that I probably interact with every 00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:44.490 day. Somebody can go in here and just, you know, 00:25:44.509 --> 00:25:47.009 recreate it or, you know, remodel it in their 00:25:47.009 --> 00:25:49.670 own vision. Yeah. So helpful to see that breakdown. 00:25:49.869 --> 00:25:52.069 So I kind of went off there. But my advice to 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:57.009 someone would be like, if you want to learn how 00:25:57.009 --> 00:26:01.490 to make websites. start thinking about like what 00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:03.910 websites do you look at that you actually think 00:26:03.910 --> 00:26:06.890 are interesting right like whether or not you 00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:10.309 have the you know sort of deeper educational 00:26:10.309 --> 00:26:13.210 background about the fundamentals of art and 00:26:13.210 --> 00:26:15.930 design and you're like critiquing you know what's 00:26:15.930 --> 00:26:18.490 actually at play right like you know just something 00:26:18.490 --> 00:26:21.210 that resonates with you you know pop open the 00:26:21.210 --> 00:26:24.069 dev tools and you know look up some of these 00:26:24.069 --> 00:26:26.309 folks and like check out their youtube channels 00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:28.329 or their tiktok channels and like listen to them 00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:31.609 talk and then you know kind of follow along um 00:26:31.609 --> 00:26:34.750 one of my favorite tools of all time and i use 00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:37.509 it all the time is uh this website called codepen 00:26:37.509 --> 00:26:40.430 oh yeah oh codepen's the best codepen's so sick 00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:44.890 it's like this um open community museum of just 00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:47.589 weird little experiments yes that people have 00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:50.720 done that are publicly available you can see 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.640 like the markup you can see the style you can 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.059 see whatever script and it supports many languages 00:26:56.059 --> 00:26:59.859 and you have an instant visual result i would 00:26:59.859 --> 00:27:02.460 plus one code pin even so i'm not a web developer 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.410 of any sort i try to understand the fundamentals 00:27:05.410 --> 00:27:07.690 behind it because obviously sometimes i work 00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:10.789 with web developers but um even just for me as 00:27:10.789 --> 00:27:13.849 an animator i've used code pin to just understand 00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:16.450 a little bit better how cascading style sheets 00:27:16.450 --> 00:27:19.269 work with html and like other plugins because 00:27:19.269 --> 00:27:22.089 literally you're able to see you know the actual 00:27:22.089 --> 00:27:24.089 code that you're working with and see the actual 00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:26.609 output and you can kind of butts with it a little 00:27:26.609 --> 00:27:28.589 bit change colors change things here and there 00:27:28.589 --> 00:27:30.410 figure out why it's broken usually in my case 00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:33.970 but yeah it's it's so fun and i love I love the 00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:37.049 tools like that are so easily accessible and 00:27:37.049 --> 00:27:39.529 generally free. And there's like a huge community 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:41.630 around it. So you can ask, you know, as many 00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:44.049 questions as you have and you'll generally find 00:27:44.049 --> 00:27:46.670 some answers to help you along. How many of us 00:27:46.670 --> 00:27:49.890 at this table right now in 2024 get excited about 00:27:49.890 --> 00:27:52.789 receiving emails about stuff like raise of hands? 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:57.029 No one. I signed up for CodePens like weekly 00:27:57.029 --> 00:28:01.170 email because every week. they send out a little 00:28:01.170 --> 00:28:04.690 digest of like what the most popular pens are, 00:28:04.750 --> 00:28:06.549 most popular experiments. I get so excited when 00:28:06.549 --> 00:28:07.849 I get that email. That is actually helpful. It 00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:10.049 is. I have that unsubscribed. Even if it's something 00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:13.990 that, you know, isn't relevant to the work that 00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:16.809 I do, it's still so cool and interesting to see 00:28:16.809 --> 00:28:21.190 like, oh, someone is doing an experiment of like 00:28:21.190 --> 00:28:27.190 OpenGL web browser based animation and 3D modeling 00:28:27.190 --> 00:28:30.819 using, you know, just like. technologies that 00:28:30.819 --> 00:28:32.640 i've never touched or looked into and it's just 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.740 interesting to be like oh wow what is this this 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:37.740 is so

cool like yeah continuous constant inspiring 00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:39.680 yeah it's like a constant feed of inspiration 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:44.319 and in uh fact check me on this i think in like 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:49.339 almost all cases like um if you publish a code 00:28:49.339 --> 00:28:52.579 pen you agree that it's like a fully public open 00:28:52.579 --> 00:28:55.440 source license right so like you can choose to 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.279 make it private if you want to but i think generally 00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:59.619 the default is like you can this is something 00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:01.220 that other people can kind of experiment with 00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:02.880 or clone on their own so there have been times 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.259 where i've seen something i've been like that 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:06.920 is so sick i'm gonna take this and you can like 00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:09.640 remix other people's stuff and like and then 00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:12.019 you know make your own version and make all the 00:29:12.019 --> 00:29:14.900 modifications you want and then be like I'm using 00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:17.000 this. That's awesome. You know, put a little 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.160 thank you in the source, you know? Yeah. No, 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:22.980 this is obviously you're a font of knowledge 00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:24.799 for this crisis is exactly why I wanted you on 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:27.720 our podcast. And I think something you're kind 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.539 of teasing out here too, is that don't necessarily 00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:33.859 need to have school to teach you, you know, it's 00:29:33.859 --> 00:29:36.900 true. I mean, both of you can kind of speak to 00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:40.299 this where it's like, I think a lot of what we've 00:29:40.299 --> 00:29:42.740 learned in, you know, our current careers, what, 00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.269 you know, Has been sort of the backbone of our 00:29:45.269 --> 00:29:47.910 livelihoods. We've just learned on our own, you 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:50.490 know, through through research, through experimentation, 00:29:50.650 --> 00:29:54.210 through, you know, reaching out to our peers 00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:56.190 on the Internet and, you know, kind of learning 00:29:56.190 --> 00:29:58.490 from them. So like a lot of the resources that 00:29:58.490 --> 00:30:00.789 you've already mentioned, Chris, you know, you 00:30:00.789 --> 00:30:03.049 can go on the Internet right now and check out 00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:05.789 CodePen. You can read some of these books. You 00:30:05.789 --> 00:30:08.140 know, it's like. It's all here for you. You just 00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:10.519 kind of have to take that time to dig in and 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:13.559 do that research. Exactly. Yeah. I started my 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.160 first year at the School of the Art Institute 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.059 in Chicago and I came out of the first year totally 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:21.180 burned out thinking I know all this conceptual 00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:23.920 art. I took performance and sound and all these 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:27.240 things. Thinking back on that now, yes, that 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.019 foundation laid the work for the way that I think. 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:33.460 Yeah, it doesn't necessarily. I mean, besides 00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:35.660 the integrity and the consistency of being in 00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:38.019 a studio or in front of the computer all day, 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.519 it doesn't necessarily form the career that you're 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.400 thinking about 10, 20 years later. Right. So 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.839 what is what have you taken from your earlier 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:51.539 years into how you work now? Oh, yeah. That's 00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:53.859 foundational. That's a great question. I mean. 00:30:55.130 --> 00:30:59.690 let's see what would a good example be um so 00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:03.170 this was uh i wish i could remember the name 00:31:03.170 --> 00:31:04.829 of the author i should have put this in my notes 00:31:04.829 --> 00:31:09.829 there's um a book apart uh uh installment called 00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:13.490 designing for emotion uh and i'll have to look 00:31:13.490 --> 00:31:19.029 up again and see the author but um so often in 00:31:19.029 --> 00:31:25.339 my professional career as a design informed web 00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:30.240 developer i'll get a request from someone who 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.160 um you know they want something to happen on 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:36.400 the website like oh we i saw someone else does 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:41.720 this and we need to do this too and like i always 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.819 remind them like i know i'm not the ideal customer 00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:47.619 persona right i'm not the target audience but 00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:50.519 like why do you want to do that? That's so boring. 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.579 Like, and it's ugly. So like, you know, not, 00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:58.400 not that my big takeaway from art school was 00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:01.160 like, make it pretty, but like, like how are 00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:03.099 you, how are we going to get like an emotional 00:32:03.099 --> 00:32:05.779 reaction out of the audience with this? Right. 00:32:05.779 --> 00:32:10.160 Like a lot of art school is learning, you know, 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.420 Your audience and then choosing how much you 00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:18.019 want to play into or defy their expectations 00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:21.940 or just say, I'm going to do what I like and 00:32:21.940 --> 00:32:26.119 what makes me happy. And, you know, yeah, exactly. 00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:30.359 Right. So, yeah, just like sort of being able 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:32.359 to say, like, are we going to do something that 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.339 is going to resonate with anyone? Like, is

someone 00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:39.589 going to care about this? So like. let's break 00:32:39.589 --> 00:32:42.250 that down like you know if we want to make something 00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:46.609 exciting like let's write down as many adjectives 00:32:46.609 --> 00:32:50.130 as we can think of that play into like our goal 00:32:50.130 --> 00:32:52.569 to get this emotional reaction let's break it 00:32:52.569 --> 00:32:54.390 down let's look at like other work that gives 00:32:54.390 --> 00:32:57.150 us that feeling and gives us that reaction and 00:32:57.150 --> 00:33:00.710 like take it apart and analyze it and critique 00:33:00.710 --> 00:33:03.829 it like are we trying to communicate stability 00:33:03.829 --> 00:33:06.470 well there's a layout implication there and there's 00:33:06.470 --> 00:33:10.309 a typographic implication there and maybe a color 00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:14.529 implication as well if we're trying to do something 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:17.789 that's just like much more crazy and exciting 00:33:17.789 --> 00:33:21.210 right a visual thinker and a person who has gone 00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:23.750 through art school and thought about like you 00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:26.930 know point line shape color texture you know 00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:28.710 the sort of symphony of how these things come 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:31.970 together to like evoke something in another person 00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:35.150 like like that'll make sense to me but to a non 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:38.819 -visual person right who is just looking for 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:42.819 a result they might not know that that's a question 00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:45.039 worth asking and then you get to like kind of 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.660 share that with them and say like okay cool so 00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:53.640 you want to achieve x let you know trust me to 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.029 get you to x or better without just copying what 00:33:58.029 --> 00:34:01.069 this other site did right like let's do something 00:34:01.069 --> 00:34:03.630 more interesting right yeah maybe the the apple 00:34:03.630 --> 00:34:06.890 website isn't appropriate for your you know health 00:34:06.890 --> 00:34:09.769 or fitness you know product or what have you 00:34:09.769 --> 00:34:12.590 totally it's the story again right it's i think 00:34:12.590 --> 00:34:14.050 this has kind of been a theme throughout all 00:34:14.050 --> 00:34:17.570 of our episodes is sort of digging into what 00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:20.989 the story is that you know a client or whomever 00:34:20.989 --> 00:34:23.619 it might be Is really trying to get to and using 00:34:23.619 --> 00:34:25.960 our skill sets to kind of tease that out, right? 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.599 Who are we designing this for? What is the topic? 00:34:29.659 --> 00:34:31.940 What is that emotion or that mood that we want 00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:34.739 to evoke? What's important to them? What's not 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:37.360 important to them, right? What are the other 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.320 things that they're interested in? Yeah, I mean, 00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:44.400 Hafsa, when we worked together on the brand and 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:49.000 creative team at Duo, we had leadership that 00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:53.309 really valued. our expertise and our desire to 00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:56.030 get like down to the bottom of those questions 00:34:56.030 --> 00:35:01.150 and we were so lucky like before and after working 00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:05.590 for that company i've experienced a very wide 00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:09.150 array of different types of leaders and you know 00:35:09.150 --> 00:35:11.489 they're human beings with different hopes and 00:35:11.489 --> 00:35:13.050 dreams and things that are important to them 00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:17.510 and um it I can't imagine how difficult it must 00:35:17.510 --> 00:35:23.929 be for a sort of non visual person who maybe 00:35:23.929 --> 00:35:26.469 isn't interested in, or maybe, you know, hasn't 00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:28.769 been exposed to a lot of art and design, like 00:35:28.769 --> 00:35:31.960 how hard it must be for them to. Take like, trust 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:35.159 me, bro. Yeah. Like, let me do this. Like, there's 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.920 a lot of insecurity around doing something that 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:43.820 has an emotional reaction. Yeah. Especially in 00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:45.420 the tech world. Especially in the tech world. 00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:48.300 Yeah. Where, yes, there's sort of a certain mindset 00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:51.260 that is kind of pervasive. And I think that's 00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.460 what makes it an interesting space for designers 00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:57.000 in particular, because I think that design thinking 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.050 isn't always something that is ingrained. in 00:36:00.050 --> 00:36:02.070 the tech industry, especially on the corporate 00:36:02.070 --> 00:36:06.210 level. And when it's introduced in, using Duo 00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:09.949 as an example, I think design thinking was really 00:36:09.949 --> 00:36:13.110 valued by the leaders of that company. And it 00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:15.610 really showed in how we were able to thoughtfully 00:36:15.610 --> 00:36:18.030 craft messaging and thoughtfully craft visuals 00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:21.389 around that messaging. And we saw the results 00:36:21.389 --> 00:36:24.369 in how our customers related to us and how people 00:36:24.369 --> 00:36:26.670 within the tech industry reacted to our work. 00:36:26.809 --> 00:36:29.730 And so I think that's something that is really 00:36:29.730 --> 00:36:32.090 helpful for non -creatives to think about is 00:36:32.090 --> 00:36:34.309 like yeah there is that trust me bro element 00:36:34.309 --> 00:36:37.710 of it but it's like we are designers for a reason 00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:39.889 we're giving you these recommendations

for a 00:36:39.889 --> 00:36:42.230 reason because we understand how to tell stories 00:36:42.230 --> 00:36:45.349 in a visual way and we think about the way that 00:36:45.349 --> 00:36:47.710 people might interact with our work whether it's 00:36:47.710 --> 00:36:50.869 you know a poster or an album cover or a website 00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.130 or a video like all of these things are different 00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:56.489 very intentional touch points yeah no telling 00:36:56.489 --> 00:36:59.789 the story figuring out the story um I want to 00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:04.210 say this also comes from that designing for emotion, 00:37:04.449 --> 00:37:07.750 a book apart installment that I mentioned, but 00:37:07.750 --> 00:37:13.150 a philosophy that I apply to, you can apply it 00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:16.510 to the entirety of a website. And when I say 00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:20.650 website, I'm specifically talking about like 00:37:20.650 --> 00:37:24.730 a marketing website for a business, right? You 00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:27.429 know, just like a very long interactive brochure 00:37:27.429 --> 00:37:31.480 that is like. begging someone to please get a 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.199 demo or try this product for free or like you 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.539 know talk to our sales team right you can apply 00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:38.880 this to an entire website and you should be able 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.320 to like take it down to every individual page 00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:43.400 of the website I didn't come up with this this 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.000 is from designing for emotion but like look at 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.880 each page or like each project or each website 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.679 and what do you want someone to learn how do 00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:57.179 you want someone to feel and what do you want 00:37:57.179 --> 00:38:01.239 them to do and i don't think that's oversimplifying 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:03.239 it like if you can answer those three questions 00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:07.559 um with confidence like you're off to the races 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.400 if you can't answer them with confidence now 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:12.920 you've got some room for like experimenting and 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.280 trying some different things and like trying 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.940 to get that feedback um we've talked a lot about 00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:22.539 web development but uh you know i was a web developer 00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:26.369 slash creative director and kind of like Micro 00:38:26.369 --> 00:38:30.989 creative team leader for a couple of years before 00:38:30.989 --> 00:38:33.630 the position that I'm at now. And it was awesome. 00:38:33.750 --> 00:38:36.329 I loved it. I loved being able to be the person 00:38:36.329 --> 00:38:39.809 who cleared the kind of typical traditional business 00:38:39.809 --> 00:38:42.949 nonsense out of the way to let artists do art 00:38:42.949 --> 00:38:47.909 stuff. But like that was always a struggle with 00:38:47.909 --> 00:38:51.510 other people who were like. why doesn't the homepage 00:38:51.510 --> 00:38:55.610 use all of these key terms? And like, I really, 00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:56.989 you know, someone else saying, I really want 00:38:56.989 --> 00:38:59.949 the website to talk about these features and 00:38:59.949 --> 00:39:03.389 talk about these technical specifications. And 00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:09.489 it's so hard to persuade someone that like, let's, 00:39:09.489 --> 00:39:12.150 that's not really a story. Like that's feature 00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:15.929 dumping. Anybody can do that. How are we going 00:39:15.929 --> 00:39:19.449 to actually. you know, persuade someone to like 00:39:19.449 --> 00:39:22.289 pay attention to us or like be memorable. Like 00:39:22.289 --> 00:39:24.829 what's the story, right? Like what's the value 00:39:24.829 --> 00:39:29.889 that we're trying to sell? Our colleague, Chelsea 00:39:29.889 --> 00:39:33.449 Lewis, amazing designer and amazing design thinker 00:39:33.449 --> 00:39:35.409 who was never afraid to ask those hard questions. 00:39:35.469 --> 00:39:39.739 It's like, what's the value? Why do I care? Oh, 00:39:39.739 --> 00:39:42.739 do I care that this like machine learning enabled 00:39:42.739 --> 00:39:47.960 thingamajig is, you know, this much faster than 00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.360 their thingamajig? No, but like maybe the DevOps 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.199 engineer cares that they could spend more time 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:58.079 with their family on family movie night instead 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.780 of like, you know, 8 p .m. on a Friday trying 00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:04.579 to figure out why their application is offline 00:40:04.579 --> 00:40:07.900 and the customer's pissed. Right. So, you know. 00:40:08.250 --> 00:40:12.889 What is the story is always the thing. Absolutely. 00:40:13.849 --> 00:40:17.090 I love that approach. I wanted to have a little 00:40:17.090 --> 00:40:19.269 bit of time. I mean, you've kind of touched on 00:40:19.269 --> 00:40:21.690 this, you know, throughout the topics that we've 00:40:21.690 --> 00:40:25.309 been chatting about. But for, you know, somebody 00:40:25.309 --> 00:40:27.690 who might be looking at, you know, being a web 00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:30.150 developer, being a creative director. What are 00:40:30.150 --> 00:40:32.389 some of the roles that you collaborate with? 00:40:32.489 --> 00:40:35.070 Because your work is, it can't be done in a silo. 00:40:35.090 --> 00:40:39.429 My work right now is done in a silo. What does 00:40:39.429 --> 00:40:43.170 your work look like in a day? That's only partially 00:40:43.170 --> 00:40:47.469 true. I've been really, really fortunate in the 00:40:47.469 --> 00:40:51.809 past to have collaborated with a lot of really 00:40:51.809 --> 00:40:57.110 freaking talented web designers. People who maybe 00:40:57.110 --> 00:41:00.420 don't have the experience.

actually writing the 00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:04.400 code but they understand like um hey i'm going 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:05.760 to give you an example of what something should 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:07.940 look like but i would love for this to be a global 00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:10.500 component that could fit into any context on 00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:12.719 the page and we could swap out you know these 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.139 aspects of it right like i've worked with people 00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:17.679 who can design a beautiful static version of 00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.559 a page and they know that it's going to be you 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.360 know squishy at different viewport sizes and 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:26.860 vary across you know browsers and things so cross 00:41:26.860 --> 00:41:29.239 compatibility is like better now than ever before 00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:33.960 but um uh you know i don't have someone like 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:36.300 that in my current role so in my current role 00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:42.639 i'm responsible for um maintaining the um very 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.699 well built website that i inherited it was put 00:41:45.699 --> 00:41:49.420 together by an amazing super talented design 00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:53.360 and development agency called fixal amazing group 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:56.320 of people they're so cool they were so cool about 00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:01.539 like this company wanting to bring control of 00:42:01.539 --> 00:42:03.920 their marketing website in -house and sort of 00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.619 sunset the relationship with the agency because 00:42:06.619 --> 00:42:09.019 the company's scaling and like the agency has 00:42:09.019 --> 00:42:12.599 more than one customer right yeah but they did 00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:14.519 a great job so I'm responsible for maintaining 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:18.820 what existed and building upon it and knowing 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.320 how it functions and how it is designed, but 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:26.820 then like designing, you know, new layout components 00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:31.199 or, you know, new, um, uh, compelling interactive, 00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:36.960 like ways to, uh, present content and, and making 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.000 sure it kind of, you know, feels cohesive and 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.019 fits in with what's there. Um, I'm responsible 00:42:42.019 --> 00:42:46.590 for like, uh, Server maintenance and management, 00:42:46.750 --> 00:42:48.530 typically that was a different role that I would 00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:52.289 collaborate with our old buddy, Zach Gambrell. 00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:55.260 devops guy who you know another rock star yeah 00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:57.559 exactly like something isn't working okay well 00:42:57.559 --> 00:42:59.960 the back end guy can just go take care of it 00:42:59.960 --> 00:43:01.539 it's like i've got to do some of that stuff now 00:43:01.539 --> 00:43:04.139 um so

you're like a one -man team a little bit 00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:07.320 kind of which has its pros and cons right like 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.880 i feel confident enough for the first time in 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.599 my career that i was willing to like uh swim 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.880 a little bit out of my depth yeah and know that 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:19.860 it would be okay and i'd figure it out um but 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:23.590 uh Yeah, I mean, I collaborate all the time with 00:43:23.590 --> 00:43:27.429 content people, with marketing operations people 00:43:27.429 --> 00:43:31.550 who want to, you know, they're evaluating a tool 00:43:31.550 --> 00:43:34.329 that does like really cool interactive product 00:43:34.329 --> 00:43:36.429 demos. How do we get that on the website? Can 00:43:36.429 --> 00:43:38.349 we test it out? What does it look like on a page? 00:43:38.510 --> 00:43:40.849 What does it look like in like a modal popover? 00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:43.309 So I'm collaborating with all different kinds 00:43:43.309 --> 00:43:46.489 of people who. have great ideas and want to get 00:43:46.489 --> 00:43:48.750 things on the website. And I'm like, oh, that's 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:50.190 really interesting. Let's figure out what that 00:43:50.190 --> 00:43:53.989 looks like. Right. So, yeah. Awesome. And it's 00:43:53.989 --> 00:43:55.929 kind of I love that, you know, and I feel like 00:43:55.929 --> 00:43:58.250 a lot of designers have that experience where 00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:01.590 you might find yourself working with an extended 00:44:01.590 --> 00:44:04.309 team. You know, your point, it might be marketers, 00:44:04.510 --> 00:44:06.710 it could be content writers, could be other designers. 00:44:07.010 --> 00:44:09.730 And sometimes you are all of those things. Yeah, 00:44:09.809 --> 00:44:12.889 definitely. Like. You know, I like to write for 00:44:12.889 --> 00:44:15.809 fun and, you know, I've written lyrics for songs 00:44:15.809 --> 00:44:19.230 and I've written short stories and poems. I'm 00:44:19.230 --> 00:44:22.429 not the right person to critique, you know, our 00:44:22.429 --> 00:44:26.610 senior content persons like announcement blog 00:44:26.610 --> 00:44:28.369 posts talking about new product features and 00:44:28.369 --> 00:44:30.369 stuff like that. Right. But, you know, there 00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:33.789 are times sometimes where, you know, we're. laying 00:44:33.789 --> 00:44:36.269 out copy that we've gotten for a certain page 00:44:36.269 --> 00:44:38.650 and it's just like I kind of feel like this would 00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:41.570 feel a little more human if it sounded like this 00:44:41.570 --> 00:44:44.730 and if you are fortunate which I am very much 00:44:44.730 --> 00:44:47.570 so you're on a supportive team that you know 00:44:47.570 --> 00:44:49.969 people are working without ego and open to collaboration 00:44:49.969 --> 00:44:53.010 and you can say hey I was just wondering like

00:44:53.010 --> 00:44:56.230 you know I was looking at this and you know I 00:44:56.230 --> 00:44:58.630 just as a thought I wondered if it might just 00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:02.250 feel better if it was like that nine times out 00:45:02.250 --> 00:45:05.809 of ten yes like people are willing and open to 00:45:05.809 --> 00:45:07.929 just like we're all in this together let's like 00:45:07.929 --> 00:45:09.630 make it as good as it can be right so important 00:45:09.630 --> 00:45:13.670 absolutely absolutely yeah and i love hearing 00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:15.250 from people too when they're just like hey this 00:45:15.250 --> 00:45:17.250 feels kind of awkward on this page and like i 00:45:17.250 --> 00:45:19.110 didn't understand how to get here how to do this 00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:21.949 it's like oh okay yeah sure it's reciprocal yeah 00:45:21.949 --> 00:45:24.809 yeah let's take a look at that let's try something 00:45:24.809 --> 00:45:28.320 different it's good it kind of goes back to I 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:30.619 think I try to mention this every episode, maybe 00:45:30.619 --> 00:45:33.460 I don't, but not being afraid to ask questions 00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:36.300 no matter what role you're in. I think it's so 00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.420 important to be able to have that, you know, 00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:41.639 that confidence to say, if you notice something, 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.280 you know, don't be afraid to bring it up to the 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:46.920 right person. You know, maybe, maybe it's, you 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:49.119 know, just a small observation, maybe it's a 00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:52.119 bigger one, but if you're at a good, you know. 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:54.179 work environment, you should feel like you have 00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:56.380 that safe space to be able to, you know, raise 00:45:56.380 --> 00:45:59.000 a hand and at least ask the question. Quality 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:03.000 of leadership dictates whether or not people 00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.219 are comfortable asking questions like you need 00:46:06.219 --> 00:46:10.519 good leaders who are actually, you know, cultivating 00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:14.000 that. Right. Because. You know, if you ask too 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.219 many questions, it doesn't matter if it's from 00:46:16.219 --> 00:46:19.659 a good place with poor toxic leadership. You 00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:23.019 can be quickly labeled as like, you know, disruptive 00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:25.739 rabble rouser. Like too many questions. Yeah, 00:46:25.739 --> 00:46:28.639 of course. It's a good muscle to toughen up, 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.019 especially as you're starting out. You don't 00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:33.320 want to be shut down. Right. Yeah, absolutely. 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.280 I want to ask as we kind of come up to time. 00:46:36.829 --> 00:46:38.550 with our chat. I've been enjoying this. I always 00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:40.889 learn so much from, from both of you guys. And 00:46:40.889 --> 00:46:42.969 I'm glad to chat with Chris today, but I wanted 00:46:42.969 --> 00:46:46.210 to ask, what do you kind of feel is on the horizon 00:46:46.210 --> 00:46:50.030 with your industry, with this career set? And, 00:46:50.050 --> 00:46:53.269 you know, obviously top of mind, whenever I ask 00:46:53.269 --> 00:46:54.889 this question, at least it's like, what are the 00:46:54.889 --> 00:46:57.070 implications of, you know, something like AI, 00:46:57.250 --> 00:47:00.090 but I mean, feel free to, you know, kind of go 00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:02.469 beyond that as well from your perspective. Yeah. 00:47:02.489 --> 00:47:04.670 It's such a great question. And I don't know 00:47:04.670 --> 00:47:08.159 if I have like a succinct answer for it but like 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:10.400 these are things that I think about quite a bit 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:14.760 at the highest level for me personally like since 00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:18.500 I've done a lot of different things in my career 00:47:18.500 --> 00:47:20.880 like ranging from traditional graphic design 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:26.559 to leading a team of artists to you know web 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:30.360 development you know which I wouldn't consider 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:35.019 hardcore coding but you know uh to young chris 00:47:35.019 --> 00:47:37.599 feels yes you know my idea of what hardcore coding 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:44.199 could be um i am trying to find the right balance 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.360 of like you're going back to some of the things 00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:48.960 we were talking about at the beginning you know 00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:52.559 when when you're 12 years old and you know you're 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:54.900 bright -eyed and you have this like perfect dream 00:47:54.900 --> 00:48:00.639 job in in mind right like how much of that are 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.280 you willing to just like I don't want to say 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:06.940 like let go but just sort of like like be content 00:48:06.940 --> 00:48:13.219 right like I see a possible future where like 00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:16.619 you know you grind grind grind and like network 00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:18.460 network network because you want to climb that 00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:21.800 ladder and like get to that you know sort of 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:25.440 idealized thought that you had of what it would 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:28.320 be like to be at the top but I'm just like you 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:33.619 know I'm a dad and you know I'm in a uh very 00:48:33.619 --> 00:48:38.199 serious long -term relationship and like i think 00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.860 i'm happier when i'm just content like it was 00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:44.239 not an ego blow for me to go from you know at 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:47.059 least on paper like a creative director which 00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:50.039 is perhaps considered at you know one rung on 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:53.380 the

ladder to back to like you know full -time 00:48:53.380 --> 00:48:57.260 web developer uh web designer yeah it's like 00:48:57.260 --> 00:49:01.719 that's fine i like making stuff and um i need 00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:06.340 to support myself and and my family so like that's 00:49:06.340 --> 00:49:09.059 cool like i'm okay with not just being like oh 00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:12.000 well in this many years i'm gonna be here and 00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.940 then i'll be there it's more like yeah if something 00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:16.980 comes along and it looks like a cool opportunity 00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:21.480 like i'll give it a shot right yeah um but for 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.039 the meantime i do really enjoy making websites 00:49:25.150 --> 00:49:31.530 Um, you know, I see how AI tools are threatening, 00:49:31.690 --> 00:49:37.030 um, illustrators and artists and, you know, people 00:49:37.030 --> 00:49:40.289 who do, I guess what I might call it more traditional 00:49:40.289 --> 00:49:43.449 graphic design, even if it's digital. And like, 00:49:43.469 --> 00:49:47.309 if I run into a really weird, obscure bug that 00:49:47.309 --> 00:49:50.150 I'm struggling to fix and I'm only finding stack 00:49:50.150 --> 00:49:52.829 overflow posts from like eight years ago that. 00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:57.019 aren't helping me get there yeah like i can yeah 00:49:57.019 --> 00:50:00.679 ask i can formulate a prompt for chat gpt to 00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:02.880 like point me in the right direction and save 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:05.860 myself a lot of time and headache like computers 00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:08.719 are really good at speaking computer like machines 00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:12.059 no machine so like it is a very useful debugging 00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:15.699 tool it's not perfect but that utility yeah but 00:50:15.699 --> 00:50:18.239 at the same time it's like well You know, the 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.500 days are numbered for this, right? Like there 00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:23.059 will be some leaders somewhere who maybe don't 00:50:23.059 --> 00:50:27.179 quite understand why they should value like a 00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:31.360 human made thing, even if it's digital. And they 00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:35.460 want to see a line graph go up and to the right 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.579 as hard as possible. And then it's like, well, 00:50:37.659 --> 00:50:39.559 why do I need someone like Chris who's going 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:42.389 to ask a bunch of questions about. what is this 00:50:42.389 --> 00:50:44.409 experience going to make the customer feel like 00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:47.710 before he even starts prototyping stuff? And 00:50:47.710 --> 00:50:49.070 why does he have to go through 10 prototypes 00:50:49.070 --> 00:50:51.750 and want to AB test two of them and blah, blah, 00:50:51.829 --> 00:50:54.050 blah. Like, you know, just tell the machine to 00:50:54.050 --> 00:50:57.510 make a website, right? Like, yeah, that's a real

00:50:57.510 --> 00:51:02.030 thing. Um, and, uh, you know, how fast or slow 00:51:02.030 --> 00:51:05.329 that will impact me personally, I've yet to see. 00:51:05.849 --> 00:51:09.780 Um, but, uh, But for now, you're in a good place 00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:12.559 for now. I'm in a good place. You know, if I 00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:15.579 get to a situation where someone's like, hey, 00:51:15.619 --> 00:51:18.900 Chris, we need a, you know, guitarist to be in 00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:21.480 this band. And, you know, we'll we'll you know, 00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.360 I don't want to spend my life on the road. I've 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.440 got a 12 year old son that I love hanging out 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:29.380 with and making music with. But, you know, it's 00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:31.940 like, yeah, we'll go like tour like, you know, 00:51:31.940 --> 00:51:35.300 Japan and, you know, have some shows and stuff 00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:38.750 and be like. Yeah, I'll do that. Hafsa will be 00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:40.989 in the front row. Absolutely. I will be the groupie. 00:51:41.230 --> 00:51:43.989 Yeah. Chris, it is such a pleasure to meet you. 00:51:44.030 --> 00:51:47.349 And I'm actually so your response a moment ago 00:51:47.349 --> 00:51:50.690 was so refreshing about centering parenthood 00:51:50.690 --> 00:51:54.010 relationships. And that was not what I expected 00:51:54.010 --> 00:51:57.349 any of our guests to say as we talk about our 00:51:57.349 --> 00:52:00.730 future and our professional life. So, yeah, what 00:52:00.730 --> 00:52:03.389 a great way to close it out. Thank you. I think 00:52:03.389 --> 00:52:06.550 like. so many people that we don't know personally 00:52:06.550 --> 00:52:09.670 but we look up to and admire that you know we 00:52:09.670 --> 00:52:11.909 think of as being these like and i'm not saying 00:52:11.909 --> 00:52:13.710 they weren't but like these successful creative 00:52:13.710 --> 00:52:18.210 visionaries you know and then like you read you 00:52:18.210 --> 00:52:20.849 know biographies about them or see like film 00:52:20.849 --> 00:52:24.130 adaptations of these biographies you know i don't 00:52:24.130 --> 00:52:27.369 care if it's like uh you know the steve jobs 00:52:27.369 --> 00:52:31.579 of the world or you know like i don't know Pick 00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:33.900 any famous rock star that's ever lived. Like 00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:38.179 you can ask the question, like, were they so 00:52:38.179 --> 00:52:42.300 successful because they had something to prove 00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:45.360 because they had this unhealed injury and how 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:49.980 did their success lead to like. Their happiness 00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:52.599 or unhappiness in their day to day life and like 00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:55.219 with their relationships. Like a lot of the most 00:52:55.219 --> 00:52:57.840 famous people that I admired my whole life. Turns 00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:00.239 out they were like really unhappy and everyone 00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:02.460 around them were miserable. Like, I don't want 00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:04.539 to be like that. Yeah, I'll make a cool looking 00:53:04.539 --> 00:53:08.119 website. I will hoard the creative energy like. 00:53:08.809 --> 00:53:11.389 as much of it as I can for myself and, you know, 00:53:11.389 --> 00:53:13.610 kind of like dose it out here and there in the 00:53:13.610 --> 00:53:16.989 in the day to day. But like hard work is oftentimes 00:53:16.989 --> 00:53:21.329 rewarded with more work. And, you know, I want 00:53:21.329 --> 00:53:23.619 to do a good job and I want to innovate. And 00:53:23.619 --> 00:53:25.980 then I want to save all the rest for like stuff 00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:28.539 that I like doing. If it's like, you know, making 00:53:28.539 --> 00:53:32.800 music or making my own website. Absolutely. That 00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:35.079 is the perfect way, I think, to sign this off. 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.500 Thank you so much, Chris. Yeah. Thanks for having 00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:40.900 me. Such a pleasure. If you like this podcast, 00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:44.119 be sure to heart, like and subscribe to Cadence 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:46.920 wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on 00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:50.920 Instagram at CadencePod. Or check out our episodes 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:55.039 and more at thecadencepod .com. While we are 00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:57.139 proudly based in Ypsilanti, Michigan, we are 00:53:57.139 --> 00:53:59.860 recording out of Fifth Avenue Studios in Ann 00:53:59.860 --> 00:54:03.320 Arbor at Ann Arbor District Library. And we hope 00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:05.300 wherever you're creating from in the world, you 00:54:05.300 --> 00:54:08.400 are marching to your own cadence. Thanks for 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:08.639 listening.