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E35. Adding a second storey to your home
[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
[Amelia] (0:26 - 0:42)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host, Amelia. And once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.
[Frank] (0:42 - 0:45)
Hey, Amelia. Happy Friday. I'm getting in first this time.
[Amelia] (0:45 - 0:49)
You are getting in first. Happy Friday. What are we talking about today?
[Frank] (0:49 - 1:40)
I thought I'd talk about upper story additions to houses.
[Amelia]
We've done a few of those.
[Frank]
Yeah, I've done a little bit. It's not as popular as it used to be, but it's still a very cool thing to do in the right circumstances and very effective. It is very expensive now, the way the cost of construction is heading, especially with scaffolding and a whole bunch of other stuff. But I still love doing them.
I'm amazed how they can change a whole house. You go from a single story, it's pretty normal. I've done it to the old A.V. Jennings homes from the 70s and turned them into something modern. Because you've changed the whole shape and the windows and the outdoor spaces and the living spaces and the view. And you can design them better for the sun, the views. And it's utterly amazing, the transformation.
[Amelia] (1:40 - 1:43)
Oh, it completely changes the whole aesthetic.
[Frank] (1:44 - 2:47)
It does. And the functionality of it. If you design the flow, the flow is king.
Every house, there's a flow. It's just got to function well. And I've seen some wonderful renovations that have not flowed very well.
You know, I think like walls and internal rooms and internal bathrooms and really not well thought out. I think they kind of just took out walls and put up stuff and just doesn't flow nice. So when you're doing upper story, obviously the smaller sites, funnily enough, are a good place to start.
Because if you don't have much land, you want to maintain the land, you go up. So that's got a great benefit. You might have a view up there.
I did one for a client. They weren't sure if they had a view or not. And I brought my drone there.
And we set the heights in the drone, took it up to eye level of, say, if you're standing on an upper floor in there. And they still didn't get a view. So that made them think, well, it's not worth the money or the effort.
Other times, it definitely is. But it was just a nice, easy exercise to do for them to understand what you're going to see from up there.
[Amelia] (2:47 - 2:48)
That's very cool.
[Frank] (2:49 - 3:03)
Yeah. If you buy an older house that needs a little bit of love, it could also be of great benefit, too, if the intention is to turn it into the family home and you want to be in the area. That's a perfect
Load full transcript
way of doing it as well.
[Amelia] (3:03 - 3:09)
You mentioned that putting a second story onto a new home is not recommended.
[Frank] (3:09 - 3:51)
It's pretty tough. It's really, really tough. So when we talk about a new home, we probably look at something that's been built in the last 20 years.
They have truss roofs. They have possibly a pine frame, an MGP10, which is the least strength of timber that's available out of the treated radiata pine. I'm not a big fan of the product, but it is what it is.
It's cost effective. And you can certainly use it to do two-story homes. But when you have to retrofit it, they might only have a single double plate.
This is all getting into the frame. But also what we've found, because they've got roof trusses, if you take out a roof truss to put an upper story in, you're going to lose your whole ceiling.
[Amelia] (3:52 - 3:53)
That's true.
[Frank] (3:53 - 4:34)
Because the truss is one piece. You can cut the trusses and leave the bottom core to the truss, but you've got to support it. So you're kind of juggling holding up a ceiling, putting a new floor in.
We like using floor trusses because they give nice big spans out of them. It also can run the plumbing and electrical nice and easily. Floor trusses are your friend when it comes to upper story extensions.
But a new home might be spanning too far, and floor trusses generally can only go about 7.2 metres. Your house may be wider than that. Now, with the new homes too, the internal walls are not load-bearing.
So in most modern homes in the last 20 years, the load-bearing walls are on the perimeter.
[Amelia] (4:34 - 4:36)
Oh, I didn't know that.
[Frank] (4:36 - 5:00)
And that's why trusses. Man, they can span a long ways. Roof trusses are brilliant.
I just love how you've got Mytek, Prida, and all these guys have developed these software packages to design roof trusses for hip roofs, gable roofs. They're all the different type of basic roofs. It's amazing how far we can span.
We've done up to 16 metres, just clear span, timber roof trusses. Beautiful thing.
[Amelia] (5:01 - 5:01)
That's awesome.
[Frank] (5:02 - 5:05)
Yeah, but they're not loading on anything in the middle.
[Amelia] (5:05 - 5:05)
Okay.
[Frank] (5:05 - 5:32)
So that means the slab or footings have generally not been designed to carry any more floor load. They might only be just for floor only, not for roof and floor. Definitely not for another floor and roof and the rest of it on top.
So that's where you need good advice from a structural engineer on those, finding the original drawings. So the reason they design houses that way is purely under cost.
[Amelia] (5:32 - 5:32)
Sure.
[Frank] (5:32 - 6:09)
So it certainly makes it a lot difficult to go up on the newer homes. If you get an older one, I'm talking probably late 70s down, they're great to build on. Usually hardwood frames.
The roofs are pitched, which means they're not a truss. They've got bits of
sticks of timber everywhere holding up your roof. They're a lot easier to work with and they have ceiling joists that keep your ceiling in place.
The footings back then were generally okay. Still need to have it assessed. But generally they're a lot easier to work with.
But the biggest trick though is, like I said before, is the flow and getting the staircase in the right spot.
[Amelia] (6:09 - 6:12)
I was about to ask about the staircase because that takes up a fair bit of room.
[Frank] (6:13 - 6:42)
Well, under the regs, there's a minimum width that we have to have. So then there's minimum rise, you know, the step up and then the size of the going, we call it, or the foot. Where you put your foot on the stair, there's a minimum dimension you need.
But also, rather than a minimum, you really want to have a comfortable stair. So it's nice and comfortable to use. Plus, to be fair, you want to be able to get stuff up the stairs too.
If you make them too narrow, it's hopeless trying to get in a bed or a couch upstairs.
[Amelia] (6:42 - 6:43)
Oh, that's a nightmare.
[Frank] (6:43 - 7:16)
Yeah. So, on average, your stair, depending on how they are, whether a straight run or they return back on themselves, or an L-shape or something like that, they will take approximately four to four and a half metres. Well, let's show you one returns on itself.
So you go up and you do a 180 degree turn and it returns. You're looking at about 1.8 to 2 metres in width to do it comfortably. And you're looking at about three to three and a half metres in length subject to your landing size.
To do it comfortably. You can do them a little bit tighter. And everyone comes to us and talks, oh, can I do a spiral staircase?
[Amelia] (7:17 - 7:19)
Have you tried to get a couch up a spiral staircase?
[Frank] (7:20 - 7:27)
Yeah, it's next to hopeless, that is. But even then, I'm personally not a fan because I find them a little bit unsafe. Very easy to slip on.
[Amelia] (7:27 - 7:28)
I agree.
[Frank] (7:29 - 8:26)
But it's a personal choice. I've seen it done and we've done a few of them and they've been happy with that. They take a little bit less space, but they're not as good as what people think because of how you enter the stair and where it exits at the top of the spiral staircase may not be aligned how you want it.
So it's just things to consider there too. I personally like the big open stairs. You put a nice big window in the end of it and it lets lots of light in as well.
So I mentioned before flow, you know, everything's about the flow. The position of those stairs are really critical from how you interact with the stair on the lower floor than how it exits at the top on the upper floor. You want it to be able to open up into an open space that's easy.
It could be just bedrooms up there, so it might come up into a hallway or an access space. It may open up into a living space and you've got to be careful where you've got to put in the living space because you don't want to put it up in front of your view.
[Amelia] (8:26 - 8:27)
That's true.
[Frank] (8:28 - 8:30)
The reason I say that is because I've actually seen it.
[Amelia] (8:30 - 8:35)
You mentioned that you've seen a few that were not very well designed.
[Frank] (8:35 - 8:42)
I'm looking at it going, what were you thinking? So you're sitting in your chair, you're looking at the view and there's a balustrade.
[Amelia] (8:43 - 8:44)
Going across.
[Frank] (8:44 - 9:17)
Going across in front of the windows, even though it was a glass balustrade, but it was going in front of the windows. I'm going, did anyone even think about this? Yeah.
So I think you just don't put it in front of the view that you want to look out of. I just don't understand that. So that's what you expect from your designer to be able to think of and also work around.
Same with upper floor extension. You might put your living area up there, your kitchen, dining, lounge room, look at the view. Then you want to think about where you put the toilet.
[Amelia] (9:18 - 9:19)
Yes, very true.
[Frank] (9:19 - 9:26)
Okay, everyone thinks about that, but you really want to have an upper story toilet. But where do you put it when you've got an open plan living?
[Amelia] (9:27 - 9:31)
Yeah, you don't normally like putting a toilet off a living area.
[Frank] (9:31 - 9:32)
No, you don't do.
[Amelia] (9:32 - 9:34)
No, it doesn't make much sense.
[Frank] (9:34 - 9:38)
To be fair, you don't want to keep running down the toilet to go to the dining, do you?
[Amelia] (9:38 - 9:39)
Oh no.
[Frank] (9:39 - 10:02)
And back and forth. So it makes sense you've got to put one. So then you've got to try and integrate it into it and it's not that easy.
And then it usually gets wrapped around where the kitchen is. So there again, there are rules about having a toilet near a kitchen facility. It can be overcome, but you've just got to think about it.
Plus, to be fair, and I'm going to throw this one out there. If you've got a toilet upstairs and you've had a bad curry.
[Amelia] (10:04 - 10:06)
You sound like you've got some experience.
[Frank] (10:06 - 10:11)
No, I'm not going there. But no one likes the noise out of a toilet near a living area or a kitchen.
[Amelia] (10:11 - 10:12)
No, that's very true, yes.
[Frank] (10:12 - 10:13)
Just saying.
[Amelia] (10:13 - 10:15)
You want it at the far end of the house.
[Frank] (10:15 - 10:21)
Yeah, there's only so much soundproofing you can do as well. Because there's always gaps around the door.
[Amelia] (10:25 - 10:28)
Maybe that's the new design feature we need to add.
[Frank] (10:28 - 10:29)
Turn the sound of the telly up.
[Amelia] (10:29 - 10:32)
Oh no, maybe we need to add soundproofing to the room.
[Frank] (10:32 - 11:17)
No, but it only does so much. Anyway, things to consider and how you integrate that. And sometimes it could be you put a little powder, like a sink on the outside of
it.
So you've got walls and hiding the door away so it's not within view. But it takes space to do that. So upper story extensions, you've got to think of that.
We have that with new homes too, when you consider those things. So it depends how you want to use the space. I highly recommend it.
If you've got a good view, upper story extensions are fantastic. But then think about it if you're doing a whole in your living area. That means downstairs, what do you turn your living area into?
It could be master bedroom, ensuite, but then how does the front door work? So there's all these little challenges.
[Amelia] (11:17 - 11:22)
Are there height restrictions sometimes with adding a second story?
[Frank] (11:22 - 11:56)
Under planning schemes, yeah. In Tasmania specifically, we have a thing called an envelope. We've got a maximum height, but they put this in the general residential.
They have an envelope that goes over the site. So that may dictate how your roof is designed and what type of roof. And it's not hard to punch through that.
So then if you fit within it and you meet the acceptable solution under the planning scheme, that means it goes through nice and smoothly. But if it goes through that, you probably end up having to do shadow diagrams, see how it affects the neighbouring property, things like that.
[Amelia] (11:56 - 11:58)
It would be like a performance solution?
[Frank] (11:58 - 12:06)
Well, yeah, then you've got to go for a performance solution on that. And then neighbours have got more right to object to that as well.
[Amelia] (12:06 - 12:06)
Sure.
[Frank] (12:06 - 12:58)
So those things are considered. So height, it has got a big bearing on that. So a couple of traps I want to point out.
A lot of people think that you can just pop it on top and there's no ramifications. I've renovated downstairs already and I want to put my extension on top. I said before, old houses that need a bit of love are perfect for this.
Because if you're putting something on top, you're going to have to strengthen up downstairs. And that's usually about bracing it up a little bit further, you're cutting holes through the floor, there's a bit of structural work. So you've got to stiffen this thing up so it's quite suitable to handle the wind load and whatnot.
So you don't want to renovate downstairs because you're going to have to re-plaster where you have to go in and brace the walls. Little things you've got to consider with that.
[Amelia]
That's a good point.
[Frank]
Because you don't want to do it twice.
[Amelia] (12:58 - 13:00)
Oh, definitely not. It's a waste of money.
[Frank] (13:01 - 13:07)
Oh, of course. So you just want to have one crack at it. And whether you like it or not, you're going to crack your plaster.
[Amelia] (13:07 - 13:09)
Yeah, okay. Just with the movement?
[Frank] (13:10 - 13:49)
Movement, building works, going above. And you really want to do it in spring and summer to be able to do this work. Rain may affect the work.
You're going to pop the roof off or part of the roof off. They can only build the upper story within a certain speed, so it might be fully exposed for a week, two weeks, three weeks, whatever it may be, before it's actually watertight. So those things have to be considered as well.
And the builder can only control what they can control and the size of the tarps and things like that. There's a lot of double handling to keep the place waterproof while they're building it. But I've seen some wonderful setups, the guys where they've got it all so well planned, they get it watertight in about five days.
[Amelia] (13:49 - 13:50)
Oh, that's awesome.
[Frank] (13:50 - 14:17)
Really fast. But it comes at a cost there as well. Also, upper story extensions are quite expensive.
So you lose nearly two-thirds of a bedroom on your lower floor. So you've lost that in the footprint of the house. Then when you go upstairs, you've got to lose the same space because that's your access for the stairs.
So it can be a little bit counterproductive. So if you're going to go upstairs, make it a decent one. And the cost of the scaffolding nowadays is very, very high.
[Amelia] (14:18 - 14:18)
Really?
[Frank] (14:19 - 14:43)
Yeah, yeah. And obviously you want everyone to be safe, so there's a big cost with scaffolding. One of the things to look out for is get the good advice from a designer and an engineer to be able to do an upper story extension.
And it could be well worthwhile doing it. It could really increase the value of your house. But it's like any extension or reno.
You've got to consider, how long am I going to be there for to justify the cost of this?
[Amelia] (14:44 - 14:58)
Yeah, I know one that we did probably in the last year or two. It was actually a retired couple. And they put in a second story, but they added a lift inside their house as well.
[Frank] (14:58 - 14:59)
It was a very smart idea.
[Amelia] (14:59 - 15:05)
Yeah, yeah. Just as they got older, obviously that's something that they needed to accommodate for. They've still got the steps in there.
[Frank] (15:05 - 15:11)
Of course. You need to have the stairs. You're not allowed to not have them.
So, yeah, lift gives you that accessibility.
[Amelia] (15:11 - 15:11)
Yeah.
[Frank] (15:12 - 15:43)
And it's a good idea. And that leads on to, if you're going to put a lift in, then you've got to think of the rest of the house. If you're getting older, why wouldn't you then, if you're doing a decent renter, why wouldn't you improve the rest of the house to suit you going into old age and you don't know what limitations, your physical limitations or visual limitations you're going to have and how you can improve the house, specifically bathrooms so you can fit bars in there and removable shower screens and things like that so that it's well prepared for you to stay as long as possible in your house.
[Amelia] (15:44 - 15:49)
I think that's
definitely something recommended to speak about with your designer as well.
[Frank] (15:49 - 15:50)
Yep, totally.
[Amelia] (15:50 - 15:52)
On those sort of things.
[Frank] (15:52 - 16:18)
Yeah. I would, again, talk to your designer. It would be very cost effective to do it earlier on rather than later.
If you're researching a house or looking to buy and then renovate, do something like that because the location going up is quite an attractive option. It can also be ideal because you can put garages, if there's a space, a garage on one side and build over the top of that as well. We've done other ones where they needed a garage, did the upper storey and extended a part over the house as well.
[Amelia] (16:18 - 16:21)
Even a nice deck or balcony.
[Frank] (16:21 - 16:22)
Yep, that can work very nicely.
[Amelia] (16:22 - 16:23)
That can look really nice.
[Frank] (16:23 - 16:38)
Yes, especially if you've got views. Definitely, definitely. But when you do those, you want to make it a carport as well, I highly recommend you put some roof sheeting underneath it so when you're on your deck, you've got your wine, spill your wine, it doesn't land up on the car.
[Amelia] (16:40 - 16:40)
Priorities, Frank.
[Frank] (16:41 - 16:42)
Well, it's practical.
[Amelia] (16:44 - 16:46)
As if anyone's going to spill their wine.
[Frank] (16:46 - 16:48)
Someone else said that to me as well.
[Amelia] (16:49 - 16:51)
Nobody wastes the wine.
[Frank] (16:51 - 17:03)
No, that is true. But, yeah, that I'll suggest to getting a kiddies cup. Anyway, yes.
But accidents happen, don't they?
[Amelia] (17:04 - 17:07)
Yes, and the more wine you have, probably the more wobbly you become.
[Frank] (17:08 - 17:19)
Yeah, true, true. So, yeah, lots of considerations. But doing upper storey, one of the big things is like having a deck, a nice deck to the view.
It's great.
[Amelia] (17:19 - 17:24)
Oh, yeah, definitely. Especially, you know, beaches, mountain views. City views.
[Frank] (17:25 - 17:35)
Like we're in Launceston, same with Hobart and even Burnie and a few other places like that, we're all in a valley or on the side of a hill, we've always got views.
[Amelia] (17:35 - 17:38)
Oh, definitely. Why not capitalise on those?
[Frank] (17:38 - 17:40)
Oh, 100%, yeah. So the takeaways.
[Amelia] (17:40 - 17:43)
Yeah, what are the takeaways, as always?
[Frank] (17:43 - 18:08)
Well, talk to a designer or your engineer to see if it's worth doing, you know. It's certainly worth investigating going up, but there is a cost implication of it as well. It's quite a bit more than doing a normal extension.
But it could be well worthwhile, could be a great investment. It's more longer term investment, I would suggest. Yeah, depending on what you want to achieve, you know, if you're in the right location, your kid's going to school, it could be perfect for that.
[Amelia] (18:09 - 18:09)
Oh, definitely.
[Frank] (18:09 - 18:18)
Again, it's also choosing the right house, whether it's suitable or not. That's the key is suitability of the house to do the upper storey extension.
[Amelia] (18:19 - 18:22)
And the size, the size of the house, does that have any bearing?
[Frank] (18:22 - 18:42)
Oh, yes and no. If it's an older house, it actually will work fine because the internal walls are generally load bearing. So it's not too bad.
The new houses are probably the stumbling block. Size of house doesn't always cause a major problem if it's an older house, but the new ones are a challenge. But that's what it is, and that's why I'm giving the advice now.
[Amelia] (18:42 - 18:48)
That's exactly right. I mean, I wouldn't have known that a new house would be more difficult to do.
[Frank] (18:48 - 18:57)
Yeah, one for the last 20, 30 years. Yeah, well, 40 years. Yeah, you've just got to understand what type of house you have and whether it's easy to do or not.
And also, don't expect to live in the house when they're doing this, Renno.
[Amelia] (18:58 - 18:58)
No, definitely not.
[Frank] (18:58 - 19:22)
So you might want to stay there for a point. I remember one where they stayed in the house for quite a while until they were about to crack the roof, get it waterproof. They didn't do the stairs or anything.
They worked from the outside. And then come the last, I think it was three or four weeks, they were able to get all the plumbing to work and everything without going inside. And then there was just putting the staircase in and ripping out the floor walls for the staircase.
[Amelia] (19:23 - 19:26)
I'm guessing you have to move like a fair bit of your stuff out of the house too.
[Frank] (19:26 - 19:27)
I highly recommend it.
[Amelia] (19:28 - 19:29)
It's a big, you know, big thing.
[Frank] (19:29 - 19:32)
Yeah, it's a big thing. Look, to be fair, you're better off just getting out.
[Amelia] (19:32 - 19:33)
Yeah.
[Frank] (19:33 - 19:35)
But there again, there's a big cost.
[Amelia] (19:35 - 19:36)
Oh, definitely.
[Frank] (19:36 - 19:49)
But that's no different if you're doing a big reno too on your house. You've got to move out. You've got to let the builders go nuts and just work efficiently and work to their program.
As soon as they've got to double handle stuff, the cost goes up.
[Amelia] (19:49 - 19:52)
Oh, definitely. All right. Well, we might wrap it up there, Frank.
[Frank] (19:52 - 19:52)
Okay.
[Amelia] (19:53 - 19:57)
That was the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. We'll see you again next time.
[Frank] (19:57 - 19:57)
Catch you later.
[OUTRO] (20:06 - 20:10)
You're listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.