Why 'Learn to Code' Aged Poorly: AI, Vibe Coding, and the Future of Financial Software의 전체 녹취록

and Bitcoin. 35 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,780 And today we've got a great guest on. 36 00:02:37,780 --> 00:02:43,540 We've got Kendall Y, my co-founder in Bitment, the infamous. 37 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,080 I feel like everyone I talk to is like, who is this Kendall guy? 38 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,080 Can I maybe meet him one day? 39 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,440 This just happened on a conversation on a call yesterday. 40 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:57,240 And so now people are going to get to know him a little bit. 41 00:02:57,640 --> 00:02:59,160 And Wyatt, you're on as well. 42 00:02:59,240 --> 00:02:59,700 Good morning. 43 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,700 We're doing an early Friday morning pod. 44 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,540 And I've got my Bitment mug for the occasion. 45 00:03:04,540 --> 00:03:06,680 Good morning, gentlemen. 46 00:03:07,780 --> 00:03:11,760 Good morning. Pleasure to have you, Kendall. It's been a pleasure to get to know you some, 47 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:18,920 but I too had to wait a year between knowing of Kendall prior to meeting Kendall. So it's 48 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:23,760 a long line. You better get in while you can because there's no shortcuts. 49 00:03:26,340 --> 00:03:31,460 I'm like the wizard behind the curtain. Jordan's role in my life is to protect me from this 50 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:42,440 that is true that is true we had we had to call an audible um you know guests always like people 51 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,860 get busy things fall through and so called kindle yesterday and said let's do let's rip a podcast 52 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:55,060 we haven't done in forever i mean kindle go maybe do that background first did we do a podcast 53 00:03:55,060 --> 00:04:03,660 together. Could we do a podcast together again? What was that all about? We did do a podcast. So 54 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:11,240 Jordan and I met about five years ago, 2021. We had a mutual friend who connected us because 55 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,480 he knew that we were both of the same, cut from the same cloth, basically Bitcoiners, 56 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:22,420 entrepreneurs, that type of stuff. And Jordan bugged me for a couple of years. He's like, 57 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:26,780 we got to do something we got to do something i'm like i don't know man keep in mind i'm a 58 00:04:26,780 --> 00:04:31,560 software developer so i'm working like my comfy software development job getting paid like a 59 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:39,040 crazy amount of money and i'm like i think i'm all right uh but then i do remember we were in 60 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:45,420 naples actually jordan we went to i forget what we were doing during the day we did some sort of 61 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:49,980 outing thing during the day and then we had dinner at a bar and then you're like all right kendall 62 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:51,540 Here's my idea, a podcast. 63 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:54,380 And I was like, all right, Jordan, let's do it. 64 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,920 So then we recorded, I don't remember how long it went. 65 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,280 It went for like a year, right? 66 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:02,720 We did it for like a year or something like that. 67 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,120 And then, and then I had to bounce. 68 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,920 So I was like, sorry, I gotta go. 69 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,040 I gotta go do something else. 70 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:18,903 So you took your CIA your CIA job and you like look I can speak publicly about global markets anymore Yeah Yeah The media space you know I don know 71 00:05:19,383 --> 00:05:23,603 Some things are just better left unsaid to the public, I think. 72 00:05:23,663 --> 00:05:24,123 I don't know. 73 00:05:26,043 --> 00:05:32,263 Probably in 2021 and 22 and 23, basically under that regime, that probably was true. 74 00:05:32,263 --> 00:05:36,883 But now it seems like people are just saying whatever they want and they don't care. 75 00:05:36,883 --> 00:05:39,463 So we got you on. 76 00:05:39,863 --> 00:05:47,483 So, okay, Kendall, give us your quick summary, your background, where you've been at, worked at, and what you're up to now. 77 00:05:48,683 --> 00:05:50,863 Okay, so I'm the computer guy. 78 00:05:51,123 --> 00:05:52,843 I'm the bits and bytes guys. 79 00:05:53,903 --> 00:05:55,223 I write all the code. 80 00:05:56,903 --> 00:05:59,623 So interestingly enough, you guys will love this. 81 00:05:59,623 --> 00:06:03,843 When I was like, I was probably 14 years old. 82 00:06:04,223 --> 00:06:05,183 So I'm 31 now. 83 00:06:05,183 --> 00:06:09,223 So this is close to two decades ago, 2010. 84 00:06:09,523 --> 00:06:11,323 I was an OG YouTuber. 85 00:06:11,663 --> 00:06:16,023 I made YouTube videos all the way back in 2010 and I made them about like 86 00:06:16,023 --> 00:06:19,903 Apple technology. I was like an Apple fan boy back there and back then. 87 00:06:20,103 --> 00:06:23,603 So I bought like the first generation iPad and I was like blown away by this 88 00:06:23,603 --> 00:06:25,623 thing. So, um, 89 00:06:25,623 --> 00:06:28,343 I should have stuck with it cause I'd be making crazy money on YouTube right 90 00:06:28,343 --> 00:06:29,643 now. If I stuck with it. 91 00:06:31,443 --> 00:06:31,803 Anyway, 92 00:06:31,943 --> 00:06:34,403 something happens in my life where I get bored with things and then move on. 93 00:06:35,183 --> 00:06:42,083 but so anyway I got this long journey in the technology space I was like in high school I 94 00:06:42,083 --> 00:06:47,263 worked as an Apple technician like in the back screwing you know screwing MacBooks and iPhones 95 00:06:47,263 --> 00:06:55,043 all those things and then you know for the past decade or so I've been a software engineer 96 00:06:55,043 --> 00:07:02,883 so I cut my teeth at KFC corporate so I'm from Kentucky so I went to the local the local brand 97 00:07:02,883 --> 00:07:08,843 giant Kentucky fried chicken and, um, software

developer there for four or five years. 98 00:07:09,323 --> 00:07:14,683 And then, um, I always kind of knew that I wasn't cut out for the corporate world. 99 00:07:14,683 --> 00:07:19,363 So I knew that I wanted to emerge into the entrepreneur space, but I'm also, I'm also 100 00:07:19,363 --> 00:07:23,283 pretty cautious and conservative in my, in my movements. 101 00:07:23,283 --> 00:07:26,943 So I'm never really super gung ho about just going all in type of thing. 102 00:07:27,163 --> 00:07:32,183 So really for the past five years, um, I've been working in like the crypto fintech space 103 00:07:32,183 --> 00:07:37,663 and you know obviously now george and and i are working together i am all in at this point with 104 00:07:37,663 --> 00:07:46,043 with bitman so yeah that's that's the arc this episode is brought to you by satoshi paccioli 105 00:07:46,043 --> 00:07:50,783 a full service accounting and tax firm built for the bitcoin economy if you run a bitcoin business 106 00:07:50,783 --> 00:07:55,363 mine bitcoin or invest in it you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works 107 00:07:55,363 --> 00:08:00,543 satoshi paccioli handles bookkeeping financial reporting tax compliance and strategic planning 108 00:08:00,543 --> 00:08:02,783 for Bitcoin-focused companies and individuals. 109 00:08:03,163 --> 00:08:04,563 They speak the language of Bitcoiners 110 00:08:04,563 --> 00:08:05,703 and help you stay compliant 111 00:08:05,703 --> 00:08:06,983 while building for the long term. 112 00:08:07,343 --> 00:08:09,003 To learn more or book a consultation, 113 00:08:09,443 --> 00:08:11,423 visit satoshipacioli.com. 114 00:08:12,943 --> 00:08:15,663 Are you allowed to talk about the companies 115 00:08:15,663 --> 00:08:16,523 that you worked with? 116 00:08:16,823 --> 00:08:18,623 Like, obviously, you're a block. 117 00:08:18,723 --> 00:08:19,763 That's fine to talk about. 118 00:08:19,843 --> 00:08:21,303 And then you got to work with Nick Carter 119 00:08:21,303 --> 00:08:24,743 a little bit at Coinmetrics, right? 120 00:08:25,123 --> 00:08:25,923 Yeah, yeah. 121 00:08:25,923 --> 00:08:29,223 So my first fintech or my first crypto company 122 00:08:29,223 --> 00:08:30,243 was Coinmetrics. 123 00:08:30,543 --> 00:08:36,483 which was a data analytics, crypto data analytics company based out of Boston. 124 00:08:37,423 --> 00:08:41,363 So interesting business model, honestly, you just run, you know, 125 00:08:41,443 --> 00:08:45,863 crypto nodes and you collect all the data and you sell it to Wall Street firms 126 00:08:45,863 --> 00:08:49,003 and all these, all these institutions. It's a great business model, honestly. 127 00:08:50,703 --> 00:08:53,243 And that was cool. I mean, I did that for 18 months. 128 00:08:54,223 --> 00:08:55,523 That's Nick Carter's company. 129 00:08:55,643 --> 00:08:58,343 So Nick Carter is the co-founder and chairman of the board. 130 00:08:58,343 --> 00:09:00,623 That company actually recently sold to

Talos. 131 00:09:02,543 --> 00:09:04,663 And Talos is still a private company, 132 00:09:04,763 --> 00:09:07,003 but will probably be public at some point in the next few years. 133 00:09:08,803 --> 00:09:11,363 And then I got, I kind of got poached by Block. 134 00:09:11,463 --> 00:09:12,603 So Jack Dorsey's company. 135 00:09:13,643 --> 00:09:17,543 And I was, I was really invigorated by the project at the time. 136 00:09:17,623 --> 00:09:21,643 It was the TBD project, which is like the, it was, 137 00:09:21,983 --> 00:09:25,503 I was a believer back then that project kind of fell through. 138 00:09:25,923 --> 00:09:26,743 So anyway, I worked at it. 139 00:09:26,743 --> 00:09:32,703 Well, so it was called TBDEX and what it was, was like a decentralized exchange. 140 00:09:33,363 --> 00:09:41,683 So this was back in like 2022, 2023, where like, what are the DEXs? 141 00:09:41,803 --> 00:09:48,843 Like SushiSwap or like these crypto DEXs, where it's like on-chain decentralized exchanges were really ramping up. 142 00:09:48,843 --> 00:09:53,443 the thing you have to understand about financial markets is probably the single most important 143 00:09:53,443 --> 00:10:00,023 mechanical system is the order book so it's the buys the bids and the asks in the order book you've 144 00:10:00,023 --> 00:10:04,323 probably seen that chart like on kraken where there's like a burn down of like green on one 145 00:10:04,323 --> 00:10:09,243 side and red on the other side and they're basically matching all of these trades that's 146 00:10:09,243 --> 00:10:14,243 probably the single most important system in entire financial world um in terms of the actual machine 147 00:10:14,243 --> 00:10:18,243 And so like these, these DEXs were like these crypto bros. 148 00:10:18,243 --> 00:10:32,326 We trying to do it on chain It not really the way to do it because it just doesn scale Like you can really scale a dex that way so but you know jack dorsey company obviously very bitcoin focused and so they didn 149 00:10:32,326 --> 00:10:37,766 like all the coins and i was i was you know of the same of the same mind so really the proper way to 150 00:10:37,766 --> 00:10:44,886 build a dex is actually off chain but you sort of reconcile things on chain and so really it was just 151 00:10:44,886 --> 00:10:49,926 a it's just like a messaging protocol and there's this whole open source initiative around decentralized 152 00:10:49,926 --> 00:10:55,686 centralized identity, which we can go into. You basically marry identity with this concept of a 153 00:10:55,686 --> 00:11:02,886 messaging protocol and then like reconciling things on chain. That was the idea. And in theory, 154 00:11:03,006 --> 00:11:09,266 that is actually, I think the proper way to scale like a global financial system for like the matter 155 00:11:09,266 --> 00:11:15,186 of trading. But it was way before its time, like probably that might be the case in a few decades 156 00:11:15,186 --> 00:11:22,646 type of thing. So that didn't really work out. And then for the past year or so, I worked at a 157 00:11:22,646 --> 00:11:32,466 startup like in the stablecoin space. Sort of like a, I mean, it's like a payment slash capital 158 00:11:32,466 --> 00:11:38,006 markets product. Stablecoins really had their whole time in the sun over the past 18 months, 159 00:11:38,706 --> 00:11:42,946 which I think we could talk about that if you want. But I think that's kind of not as, 160 00:11:42,946 --> 00:11:47,946 exciting these days as it once was. 161 00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:51,586 I did that for a while and now I'm full-time BitMit. 162 00:11:52,466 --> 00:11:53,006 Here we are. 163 00:11:54,546 --> 00:11:58,266 Dude, that's awesome. I did not know that. A couple of questions 164 00:11:58,266 --> 00:12:00,466 on some of your previous work experience. 165 00:12:02,246 --> 00:12:03,506 Did you get to meet the colonel? 166 00:12:06,746 --> 00:12:10,486 The KFC experience is really interesting. It's a great company to work for, honestly. 167 00:12:10,486 --> 00:12:18,206 I mean, they don't pay great because they're not a tech company, but pretty good culture. 168 00:12:18,566 --> 00:12:20,806 And you do get to do lots of fun things like that. 169 00:12:21,426 --> 00:12:28,806 One thing that they make you do is every single employee has to spend two days a year actually working in the restaurants. 170 00:12:29,146 --> 00:12:33,966 And so you have to go in the restaurant and be an actual employee of one of the corporate franchise restaurants. 171 00:12:35,166 --> 00:12:37,746 And they always give me the hardest jobs. 172 00:12:37,806 --> 00:12:38,646 I don't understand why. 173 00:12:38,646 --> 00:12:44,906 they give me the job of being the the cook like the actual bride cook in the back and i was like 174 00:12:44,906 --> 00:12:52,026 it is exhausting back there it's like you're sweating like lunch rush comes in it's like 175 00:12:52,026 --> 00:12:58,986 it's tough it's not easy yeah that's that's awesome uh i think that's such a cool policy 176 00:12:58,986 --> 00:13:03,786 uh and on a more more serious now you know one thing we haven't talked about in a while jordan 177 00:13:03,786 --> 00:13:14,886 But I'm always interested how people get into the Bitcoin space because, you know, relatively, it's still a pretty small ecosystem. 178 00:13:15,486 --> 00:13:18,766 Like, there's not a ton of big companies that employ a lot of people. 179 00:13:18,906 --> 00:13:20,286 You've worked for a couple of those. 180 00:13:20,886 --> 00:13:26,646 You know, so you went to CoinMetrics block after, like, cutting your teeth, you know, having the experience at CoinMetrics. 181 00:13:26,706 --> 00:13:28,946 How did you get to CoinMetrics in the first place? 182 00:13:29,006 --> 00:13:30,446 Were you, like, creating content? 183 00:13:30,786 --> 00:13:31,946 Were you reaching out to people? 184 00:13:33,786 --> 00:13:59,646 Yeah, that's a, that's an interesting question actually. Cause so when

I left, I left KFC and I did actually kind of go gung ho in the entrepreneur space. So I, um, I, I kind of took like a six month period where I tried to build a startup and it was very unserious, honestly, like it didn't, it didn't work out. And like, um, it was kind of, I always knew it was going to be like a learning experience type of thing. 185 00:13:59,646 --> 00:14:04,386 um but then so then during that period i was like really interested in like the crypto and 186 00:14:04,386 --> 00:14:08,646 financial stuff and i've always been this type of guy where this is where i'm at currently this is 187 00:14:08,646 --> 00:14:15,486 the second time i've done this where i will build a savings account and then i will you know once i 188 00:14:15,486 --> 00:14:20,946 feel like that savings account is at a good enough number i will bet on myself and so i'll just live 189 00:14:20,946 --> 00:14:26,126 off of savings type of thing um so i did that back then i'm kind of doing that again right now 190 00:14:26,126 --> 00:14:34,446 with it meant to some extent um but so the first time when i when i did that i was really into the 191 00:14:34,446 --> 00:14:38,106 crypto space and the financial space the startup i was trying to build was not in the crypto and 192 00:14:38,106 --> 00:14:45,666 financial space and um and then i i was like well i kind of need another job again and so then i 193 00:14:45,666 --> 00:14:51,166 just started you know scoping out the landscape i probably want to work in this space um and the 194 00:14:51,166 --> 00:14:57,586 coin metrics came up on my radar and i was like really really fascinated with the work of nick 195 00:14:57,586 --> 00:15:04,066 carter like i think nick carter is maybe one of the most to me the most important individuals in 196 00:15:04,066 --> 00:15:11,146 the entire crypto you know fintech new new age uh new age financial system interesting we'll circle 197 00:15:11,146 --> 00:15:16,166 back to that yeah his work is just very highbrow i know he's a little contentious in the bitcoin 198 00:15:16,166 --> 00:15:18,166 So yeah, we can go into that if you want. 199 00:15:18,166 --> 00:15:20,166 But anyway, so he co-founded Coinmetrics and I was like, 200 00:15:20,166 --> 00:15:22,166 let me just reach out to these guys. 201 00:15:22,166 --> 00:15:24,166 And so I just literally cold emailed them. 202 00:15:24,166 --> 00:15:26,166 I was like, hey, this is me. 203 00:15:26,166 --> 00:15:27,166 Just introduction. 204 00:15:27,166 --> 00:15:30,166 I'm really interested in working on the crypto space. 205 00:15:30,166 --> 00:15:32,166 You know, are you guys hiring type of thing? 206 00:15:32,166 --> 00:15:43,309 And they got back to me and they like yeah actually we have a position open and the rest is history so cold emails absolutely work establishing real human connections absolutely 207 00:15:43,309 --> 00:15:51,309 works your wealth deserves intention basilic financial is a bitcoin focused wealth management 208 00:15:51,309 --> 00:15:55,548 firm built to help our clients find balance between money and meaning we integrate sound 209 00:15:55,548 --> 00:16:00,189 money strategies across four distinct personalized services financial planning individual wealth 210 00:16:00,189 --> 00:16:05,869 management retirement services for smbs and bitcoin financial services your prosperity your 211 00:16:05,869 --> 00:16:11,869 purpose intentionally guided at basilic financial visit our website at basilic.io to schedule free 212 00:16:11,869 --> 00:16:21,949 consultation truth um in that vein just because i have to mention now that was a phenomenal tf 213 00:16:21,949 --> 00:16:27,229 bitcoin financial services summit october 20 22nd denver colorado make real human connections but 214 00:16:27,229 --> 00:16:31,149 But to Nick Carter, I don't know him. 215 00:16:31,149 --> 00:16:36,869 I have vaguely followed his work primarily through Twitter. 216 00:16:37,348 --> 00:16:39,548 You obviously work for him. 217 00:16:41,149 --> 00:16:44,869 Is Bitcoin Twitter shading my opinion on him? 218 00:16:45,289 --> 00:16:47,389 Do you guys still follow his work? 219 00:16:47,489 --> 00:16:49,009 Do you guys keep in touch or anything? 220 00:16:49,369 --> 00:16:50,668 Is he misunderstood? 221 00:16:51,289 --> 00:16:54,848 What are some of the important things you think he's done or been working on? 222 00:16:54,848 --> 00:16:58,709 so i don't want to make it sound like me and nick carter are friends because we're not like 223 00:16:58,709 --> 00:17:02,309 buddy buddies texting each other all the time that would be cool i'd be down for that nick hit me up 224 00:17:02,309 --> 00:17:12,809 but um so i mean on one level you always have to understand that everybody's always talking 225 00:17:12,809 --> 00:17:17,948 their own books and so you just have to be you just have to recognize that and nick carter's job 226 00:17:17,948 --> 00:17:24,208 is that of a venture capitalist in the crypto space investing in blockchain companies so on 227 00:17:24,208 --> 00:17:28,708 some level, he's always going to have some bias like that. That's, that's unavoidable. At the same 228 00:17:28,708 --> 00:17:33,948 time, I think I try to see through the bias and see like, what does the individual actually believe 229 00:17:33,948 --> 00:17:39,429 in? Like what's the system of, of morals and values, which the individual believes in. And I 230 00:17:39,429 --> 00:17:45,529 think that Nick Carter's values actually are consistent with my belief of the long-term Bitcoin 231 00:17:45,529 --> 00:17:54,389 values, which is that, you know, it's like, it's obviously it's ultimately, I think the systems of 232 00:17:54,389 --> 00:18:00,488 values go, go back towards protecting the individual and from the collective, so to speak. 233 00:18:00,708 --> 00:18:06,549 But the pathway to get there is, is not as simple as just be a really super hardcore libertarian. 234 00:18:06,689 --> 00:18:11,988 The pathway is

fraught with, uh, with complexities along the way. So I think that Nick Carter, 235 00:18:11,988 --> 00:18:17,129 anytime you're you elevate i think you get elevated to the level of influence which nick 236 00:18:17,129 --> 00:18:22,508 carter is at you um you're just in a really difficult position and you don't you can't 237 00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:27,609 satisfy everybody you just have to try to stay like as authentic as you can um and i think nick 238 00:18:27,609 --> 00:18:32,789 does a pretty good job at that also by the way so i comment this is why i don't like to do media 239 00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:39,968 things because i don't want to be in that position but uh but at the end of the day like 240 00:18:39,968 --> 00:18:46,149 the reason why I really appreciate Nick Carter's work is because I'm just the type of guy that I'm 241 00:18:46,149 --> 00:18:51,589 nerdy enough to where like, I want to know the sophistication. Like I want to know like the sort 242 00:18:51,589 --> 00:18:57,649 of obscure, uh, historical accounts of like things that people don't even ever talk about 243 00:18:57,649 --> 00:19:02,129 everything. And I want to be like, I'm just, I'm just a ruthlessly curious individual. 244 00:19:02,508 --> 00:19:08,688 And Nick's work almost always captures my, uh, almost always captures my attention like that. 245 00:19:08,688 --> 00:19:13,188 So I know there's a lot of spats in the, in social media and stuff like that. 246 00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:14,649 Those are fun and everything. 247 00:19:14,988 --> 00:19:18,688 But at the end of the day, like I just, I just really appreciate Nick's work. 248 00:19:24,129 --> 00:19:25,329 Jordan, Jordan, you're on mute. 249 00:19:35,728 --> 00:19:36,129 Yeah. 250 00:19:36,248 --> 00:19:38,269 Feel free to mute me and unmute me. 251 00:19:38,269 --> 00:19:39,429 So we can cut that. 252 00:19:40,669 --> 00:19:53,309 Kendall, given our audience of, you know, financial advisors and like CPAs, I'm curious to hear you kind of talk through really the last, I guess, 18 months since we've been building Bitment. 253 00:19:53,309 --> 00:20:04,369 Like, maybe tell that story because it's very, you know, we've been building for the CPA space and now we've expanded that beyond to more financial advisors, attorneys. 254 00:20:04,369 --> 00:20:13,448 And of course, AI has kind of blown up in the past, I don't know, two years, but has really ramped up in the last, I guess, seven months now. 255 00:20:13,748 --> 00:20:21,849 I kind of think of the year end 25 going into 26 is like a real landmark in terms of AI being much more powerful. 256 00:20:22,569 --> 00:20:27,569 So maybe give our audience that landscape, especially if there's someone who is out there. 257 00:20:27,569 --> 00:20:31,149 They're an accountant, they're a financial advisor, 258 00:20:31,149 --> 00:20:33,508 they're interested in Bitcoin, they're interested in AI, 259 00:20:33,508 --> 00:20:38,089 but they don't really know how to use AI best. 260 00:20:38,089 --> 00:20:40,389 They're still getting to know Bitcoin. 261 00:20:40,389 --> 00:20:43,889 Maybe talk to that person and with the experience you've had 262 00:20:43,889 --> 00:20:46,789 in the last 18 months of the products you've built. 263 00:20:48,889 --> 00:20:49,968 Yeah, what's been some fun 264 00:20:50,011 --> 00:20:55,031 insights that you've come across you think might be relevant for for our audience i was just 265 00:20:55,031 --> 00:21:01,911 speaking with my friend yesterday about the the concepts of double entry bookkeeping and how 266 00:21:01,911 --> 00:21:06,071 powerful the concept yeah i know right this is this is the type of things we get into 267 00:21:06,071 --> 00:21:18,191 and it is the double entry bookkeeping is this like super powerful um it is like it's a it's 268 00:21:18,191 --> 00:21:21,971 like an OG type of technology. It's just a, it's a standard way of doing things. 269 00:21:22,591 --> 00:21:28,351 That's, that's Pacioli, right? Jordan. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Pacioli created double entry 270 00:21:28,351 --> 00:21:36,551 bookkeeping. So, um, I'm obviously not an accountant and I didn't know it. I didn't even 271 00:21:36,551 --> 00:21:41,091 know what double entry bookkeeping was before we started working on Bitment, you know, 18 months 272 00:21:41,091 --> 00:21:49,491 or whatever um and it's this it's like a classic trope where uh the software engineer comes in and 273 00:21:49,491 --> 00:21:54,971 they're like oh yeah this is going to be easy like we just you know copy paste uh quickbooks 274 00:21:54,971 --> 00:22:02,351 so i have absolutely been humbled by like the level of complexity in the accounting world i i 275 00:22:02,351 --> 00:22:07,111 can obviously see now how it's like you know you have to go to college and get a you know a degree 276 00:22:07,111 --> 00:22:11,911 and everything that's a different conversation obviously but my point is just that it's a it's a 277 00:22:11,911 --> 00:22:18,631 sophisticated way of it's a sophisticated uh profession so that's been that's been humbling 278 00:22:18,631 --> 00:22:28,551 for sure i think we've absolutely nailed that for sure um the matter of bitcoin and public blockchains 279 00:22:28,551 --> 00:22:34,951 is just really interesting for that concept because reconciliation is easy to do it's all out there in 280 00:22:34,951 --> 00:22:46,171 in the open. A large part of the Bitcoin story, I do still actually believe Jack Dorsey's framing 281 00:22:46,171 --> 00:22:51,431 of the Bitcoin story is still massively undervalued, which is that, look, guys, don't 282 00:22:51,431 --> 00:22:57,491 overcomplicate this. It's just digital cash. It's just digital money. The fact that you can just 283 00:22:57,491 --> 00:23:04,411 treat it like digital native money, meaning it exists native to the computing systems, which 284 00:23:04,411 --> 00:23:09,431 you and I are, or we're all three, you know, operating on right now as we speak, that is 285

00:23:09,431 --> 00:23:12,891 just crazy in and of itself that we can, it exists solely in that realm. 286 00:23:13,111 --> 00:23:16,451 And so therefore it's native, you know, it's native to that realm and it can be utilized 287 00:23:16,451 --> 00:23:17,611 by things like AI. 288 00:23:19,071 --> 00:23:25,311 So, um, obviously our background is, is in the financial space. 289 00:23:25,551 --> 00:23:31,071 Um, that's like, you know, your, your background Jordan is in the, uh, CPA space, the tax space. 290 00:23:31,071 --> 00:23:38,611 I have a background in the crypto fintech space, like we said. So it makes sense that we're focusing on that world. 291 00:23:38,611 --> 00:23:59,171 To your point with AI, basically what happened about the turn of last year going into 2026 was the AI models became sufficiently powerful that in certain circumstances, they really did start to automate a lot of labor. 292 00:23:59,171 --> 00:24:04,831 and that that changed things dramatically if you're trying to build a tech company 293 00:24:04,831 --> 00:24:10,251 um and it's going to take we can go into it if you want but it's going to take five or ten years 294 00:24:10,251 --> 00:24:15,191 for all those things to actually diffuse but the world of software engineering in particular 295 00:24:15,191 --> 00:24:22,451 is like ground zero for this and um like my job has been radically changed over the past 12 months 296 00:24:22,451 --> 00:24:26,011 and i didn't have any say in it right it just happened to me and you gotta you gotta dance 297 00:24:26,011 --> 00:24:26,931 with the wins that you're given. 298 00:24:29,391 --> 00:24:34,671 And, you know, so obviously we're focused on the financial industry, 299 00:24:34,671 --> 00:24:37,771 but at the same time, Bitment is a technology company. 300 00:24:38,071 --> 00:24:40,771 And so we are playing the technology game. 301 00:24:41,571 --> 00:24:44,331 And so you have to actually approach it from like, 302 00:24:44,391 --> 00:24:47,811 well, what's the landscape of current technology companies? 303 00:24:49,351 --> 00:24:52,651 And I think the landscape over the next five to 10 years 304 00:24:52,651 --> 00:25:00,971 is of course all about how does ai um how is ai utilized in these systems and the question is 305 00:25:00,971 --> 00:25:07,931 mostly a question of uh economic productivity like at the end of the day the purpose of these systems 306 00:25:07,931 --> 00:25:16,011 is to increase leverage for the productive individual and then we can go into like how 307 00:25:16,011 --> 00:25:24,531 How does that fit in? But I think prior to call it December 2025, a tech company was built one way. 308 00:25:24,531 --> 00:25:28,891 I think post-December 2025, a tech company is built an entirely different way. 309 00:25:31,771 --> 00:25:44,151 Yeah, certainly. I think you have some really interesting thoughts in particular about what that means and how you guys are building Bitcoin or Bitmen. 310 00:25:44,151 --> 00:25:47,071 So I want to circle back to that in a second. 311 00:25:47,891 --> 00:25:49,911 I totally agree with you on the timeline. 312 00:25:50,171 --> 00:25:54,111 I think January of this year is the first time I've ever gotten a terminal. 313 00:25:54,371 --> 00:25:55,711 I'm not a tech bro. 314 00:25:56,471 --> 00:26:08,008 And I was intimidated at first I was like wow Claude You like well this is like the Matrix There like green things going all around No literally it like I can read anything I don know a single 315 00:26:08,008 --> 00:26:09,688 prompt line command. 316 00:26:10,048 --> 00:26:13,048 But one of the things 317 00:26:13,048 --> 00:26:14,768 that I think is interesting, 318 00:26:14,928 --> 00:26:16,768 you know, just kind of like set this up into 319 00:26:16,768 --> 00:26:19,128 the future is like I'm an enjoyer 320 00:26:19,128 --> 00:26:21,088 of irony. And this 321 00:26:21,088 --> 00:26:23,248 irony isn't lost on, you know, 322 00:26:23,568 --> 00:26:25,308 probably 10, 15 323 00:26:25,308 --> 00:26:26,968 years ago, whatever it was like. 324 00:26:27,508 --> 00:26:33,308 all the talk you know it's like what are we going to do with steel workers oh just learn to code bro 325 00:26:33,308 --> 00:26:39,728 and then like the first thing ai actually like first industry probably it disrupts the most to 326 00:26:39,728 --> 00:26:44,348 your point it's like software engineering right and so i think that's kind of like a crazy 327 00:26:44,348 --> 00:26:50,708 course of events learn to code okay what just kidding no literally i'm just like okay the first 328 00:26:50,708 --> 00:26:55,028 job to play so like programmers so uh i was just curious on like your thoughts on that and like 329 00:26:55,028 --> 00:26:58,468 being in the industry and having to like endure that? 330 00:27:00,228 --> 00:27:06,308 So, I mean, it's always, these things are always like a double, you know, double-edged because 331 00:27:06,308 --> 00:27:13,848 it's both, it's both the case that tech jobs for sure are the first to be disrupted. 332 00:27:14,768 --> 00:27:19,908 And most individuals are attracted to the tech industry because they have 333 00:27:19,908 --> 00:27:24,628 a predisposition towards constant change. 334 00:27:24,948 --> 00:27:26,708 And so they're kind of adapted to it already. 335 00:27:27,028 --> 00:27:28,988 It's kind of the part for the course for them. 336 00:27:29,888 --> 00:27:32,008 That said, you know, it's not easy. 337 00:27:32,188 --> 00:27:33,248 It's obviously not easy. 338 00:27:33,248 --> 00:27:43,648 Um, um, you, I, it's, it's just an, it's a brave new world we're going into where you 339 00:27:43,648 --> 00:27:47,588 have to be very adaptive and you got to be willing to learn new things. 340 00:27:47,588 --> 00:27:52,688 And that is kind of a large part of, I think, everybody's job going forward is just continuous, continual learning. 341 00:27:54,928 --> 00:28:04,488 But I can tell you, like, concretely, like, you

know, prior to December 2025, I was, you know, I was using AI. 342 00:28:04,488 --> 00:28:14,028 I was actually using cursor a lot, but I would still I still had a heavy hand in the review process and making, you know, reading every single line of code still. 343 00:28:14,028 --> 00:28:22,048 after december 2025 i hardly ever write code i hardly ever read code and yet i still manage a 344 00:28:22,048 --> 00:28:31,788 code base i so in this sense i i quite literally think of my ai agents as employees of mine like i 345 00:28:31,788 --> 00:28:38,308 i got out basically i got elevated to the position of manager which i never even asked to be to to to 346 00:28:38,308 --> 00:28:42,428 for that to happen and it's funny that have that people all throughout my career were trying to 347 00:28:42,428 --> 00:28:45,608 elevate to me position of manager there's a couple times where it happened and i was basically like 348 00:28:45,608 --> 00:28:53,108 i don't want to do that so but then it's just like forced upon me right but um that that is the 349 00:28:53,108 --> 00:28:59,588 landscape now you know people have different desires and different preferences and everybody 350 00:28:59,588 --> 00:29:04,628 has to figure out what what they want to do with life it's still fun for me so i'm having fun in a 351 00:29:04,628 --> 00:29:12,868 different way um but but it's certainly different and the reason why it it comes it came to the 352 00:29:12,868 --> 00:29:20,628 software development world first this is my my gambit is that software developers have been 353 00:29:20,628 --> 00:29:26,808 trying to automate their job for the last 20 30 years so there's already a tremendous amount of 354 00:29:26,808 --> 00:29:31,668 infrastructure in place there's two things there's infrastructure in place for software 355 00:29:31,668 --> 00:29:35,348 which software developers were already building just for themselves to automate. 356 00:29:35,668 --> 00:29:38,568 And then they can just now they can just layer in AI to do the automation. 357 00:29:39,528 --> 00:29:45,148 The second thing is that so much of software is already universally standardized. 358 00:29:46,268 --> 00:29:50,408 And so there's strict standardization across the entire software realm. 359 00:29:50,648 --> 00:29:58,968 Like mostly a vast majority of industrial software, like probably greater than 90% runs on a Linux based system. 360 00:29:58,968 --> 00:30:00,888 So it's some sort of Linux operating system. 361 00:30:01,668 --> 00:30:07,108 mac os is actually a linux-based operating system windows is the one odd ball out actually windows 362 00:30:07,108 --> 00:30:15,748 is a is a m dos or something like that ms dos um so you have like an extremely robust set of 363 00:30:15,748 --> 00:30:20,068 standardization in the software space which is like here's a little bit of alpha for you which 364 00:30:20,068 --> 00:30:26,628 is that like the reason why cloud code is so powerful in the terminal is because it can 365 00:30:26,628 --> 00:30:29,128 directly leverage the Linux tooling. 366 00:30:30,948 --> 00:30:33,828 And so it's interfacing directly with that standardization. 367 00:30:33,828 --> 00:30:38,008 Whereas if you use Claude in the application, you have an abstraction 368 00:30:38,008 --> 00:30:40,508 layer between you and the standardization. 369 00:30:40,868 --> 00:30:44,028 And so it's not as familiar with the underlying standardization. 370 00:30:44,928 --> 00:30:48,868 So anyway, this is the reason why software was the first to be 371 00:30:48,868 --> 00:30:50,848 automated like this. 372 00:30:50,848 --> 00:30:55,848 other industries, other domains have far less standardization. 373 00:30:56,848 --> 00:30:58,848 And so they are far, 374 00:30:58,848 --> 00:31:02,848 they're just gonna take a lot longer to automate. 375 00:31:02,848 --> 00:31:04,848 And this is where it becomes like, 376 00:31:04,848 --> 00:31:08,848 what I refer to as human systems. 377 00:31:08,848 --> 00:31:26,384 Like the reason why for example the financial space is so not standard The reason why you hear all these words these obscure words thrown around left and right by people in the financial space is because they are very human systems 378 00:31:27,144 --> 00:31:32,324 It's the historical account of the financial system is just humans talking to each other. 379 00:31:32,324 --> 00:31:37,924 and because humans are talking to each other and all this you know diverse uh set of backgrounds 380 00:31:37,924 --> 00:31:45,244 it's there's no one way of doing it right and so for that reason it's um it's going to be 381 00:31:45,244 --> 00:31:50,164 it's still going to diffuse and these things are going to like these systems are going to automate 382 00:31:50,164 --> 00:31:57,984 all of these white collar jobs it's just that um the there's a there's a long process time 383 00:31:57,984 --> 00:32:01,884 for the for the infrastructure and the standardization to come into play 384 00:32:01,884 --> 00:32:10,204 Do you mind to go a little bit deeper into the whole like vibe coding? 385 00:32:10,324 --> 00:32:16,204 Because I think there's a lot of advisors probably listening to this that are like, yeah, I played around with the tools and it's blown my mind. 386 00:32:16,204 --> 00:32:18,684 Right. I'm going to do X, Y and Z in my firm. 387 00:32:18,684 --> 00:32:23,724 and I know I could speak to this a little bit, but I'd love to get your perspective on it, 388 00:32:23,884 --> 00:32:30,684 on just, and especially in this space where you're dealing with the sensitive documents that 389 00:32:30,684 --> 00:32:36,704 financial advisors, tax people, attorneys deal with. Can you just talk us through 390 00:32:36,704 --> 00:32:44,304 why vibe coding is very interesting up until a point, and then it's a complete waste of time 391 00:32:44,304 --> 00:32:48,344 because ultimately there's data security. 392 00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:53,624 And if you let some of that data leak out to a

bad actor, 393 00:32:54,084 --> 00:32:55,864 obviously that has huge implications 394 00:32:55,864 --> 00:32:58,264 for the letters behind people's names. 395 00:32:58,504 --> 00:33:01,664 So just kind of curious to get your take on that 396 00:33:01,664 --> 00:33:03,904 as you're talking to an audience of people 397 00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:06,704 that are probably playing around with these tools, 398 00:33:07,384 --> 00:33:08,604 feeling like they're more productive, 399 00:33:08,604 --> 00:33:12,104 but ultimately are probably actually working more now 400 00:33:12,104 --> 00:33:13,944 because they still have to get their work done 401 00:33:13,944 --> 00:33:16,264 manually because it's not embedded. 402 00:33:16,864 --> 00:33:18,984 Like the AI is not embedded into their workflows. 403 00:33:20,124 --> 00:33:21,964 Well, and then Kendall, just building on that too, 404 00:33:22,024 --> 00:33:24,044 maybe if you could reference like some specific tools, 405 00:33:24,124 --> 00:33:25,624 you know, when Clawbot came out, 406 00:33:25,844 --> 00:33:27,144 you know, it was like all the rage 407 00:33:27,144 --> 00:33:29,224 and you felt like an idiot if you weren't using one, 408 00:33:29,304 --> 00:33:31,204 but then like a couple of weeks go by 409 00:33:31,204 --> 00:33:33,044 and people's code bases are getting deleted. 410 00:33:33,464 --> 00:33:34,884 Emails are getting sent, you know, 411 00:33:34,884 --> 00:33:36,824 so you like contextualize this with like 412 00:33:36,824 --> 00:33:38,724 maybe some of the specific developments. 413 00:33:40,344 --> 00:33:42,364 Yeah, so there's a lot that can be said here. 414 00:33:42,364 --> 00:33:54,784 A lot of it's pretty abstract and philosophical, but I would say at scale, like five or 10 years from now, the job of a software developer is largely that of basically like a cybersecurity engineer. 415 00:33:54,784 --> 00:34:09,904 And so the industrial value of an individual who says they are a software engineer is largely that to make sure that the systems are secure, cryptographically, you know, secured and the networks are secure and all those things. 416 00:34:10,024 --> 00:34:20,624 And the processes are not going to be auto deleted by rogue AI, which, by the way, that whole open AI thing with hugging face, that's a psyop, 100% psyop. 417 00:34:21,984 --> 00:34:22,784 Oh, interesting. 418 00:34:22,784 --> 00:34:31,804 yeah it's but anyway we don't have to go to that um um but so but the thing is we're not actually 419 00:34:31,804 --> 00:34:35,464 even there yet like you'll hear that that's that's a narrative right now that you'll hear 420 00:34:35,464 --> 00:34:41,164 but it is a narrative which is it like you can't do this on your own because you can't trust that 421 00:34:41,164 --> 00:34:46,964 you're not gonna you know delete your systems or expose client data yes that's true but that's 422 00:34:46,964 --> 00:34:50,784 honestly not the biggest thing right now here's how i describe it 423 00:34:50,784 --> 00:34:59,184 building a software application is like building a skyscraper. So a skyscraper is this enormous 424 00:34:59,184 --> 00:35:05,744 piece of civil engineering with, you know, it's on a grand scale, both literally from our 425 00:35:05,744 --> 00:35:10,944 perspective and that it's very tall, but then also on the detailed level. So you literally have 426 00:35:10,944 --> 00:35:17,984 architectural blueprints down to like individual screws or washers on individual screws in a door. 427 00:35:17,984 --> 00:35:26,424 right so you have this tremendously large project on the on the macro scale and every detail also 428 00:35:26,424 --> 00:35:37,324 has to be in place prior to ai coding um it was as if it was the way you know um skyscrapers have 429 00:35:37,324 --> 00:35:42,404 always been built which is that you have humans walking around you have welders that are welding 430 00:35:42,404 --> 00:35:49,764 to things. They have to use these large cranes to pick up the heavy stuff. After AI coding, 431 00:35:50,044 --> 00:35:55,964 it's as if the law of gravity no longer exists. And so it's as if an individual can, 432 00:35:56,484 --> 00:36:01,604 they themselves just lift up a giant steel I-beam and put it into place themselves. 433 00:36:02,744 --> 00:36:08,044 And you can see how that would obviously speed a lot of things up. Obviously, if I don't have to 434 00:36:08,044 --> 00:36:14,064 rely on a slow moving crane, then I can just literally pick up a giant I-beam and stick 435 00:36:14,064 --> 00:36:15,944 it into place with my own two hands. 436 00:36:16,424 --> 00:36:20,164 It's going to speed things up dramatically, but it's actually not going to speed things 437 00:36:20,164 --> 00:36:33,180 up a ton to be honest because you still have all these little nuts and bolts You still have all these little washers everywhere Everything has to be put into place So there all these details And that what you pay an engineer for 438 00:36:33,620 --> 00:36:38,220 All that level of comprehensive detail to make sure everything is in place. 439 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:47,000 And it sounds, the job of software is to make things anthropomorphized such that they're 440 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,280 easy to use. 441 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,600 And these software systems are sycophantic. 442 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,280 And so they create the appearance that they're very easy. 443 00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:57,680 But if you actually go through the legwork of building it, 444 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,740 you will realize that it's building a skyscraper and there's like little 445 00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:06,380 washers and nuts and bolts everywhere. And it's not fun. Honestly, 446 00:37:06,460 --> 00:37:07,940 you had to like, it's very laborious. 447 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,160 Even with these systems is very laborious because you got to go through every 448 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,240 little thing. It's like, so anyway, that's the job

of a software engineer. 449 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:21,220 And so the point of like the vibe coding stuff is still fantastic. 450 00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:24,380 because it actually does have a very good use case, 451 00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:27,460 which is that if you're a non-technical person 452 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:31,300 and you're trying to convey an idea to a technical person, 453 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,500 a great way to do it is to just vibe code the thing. 454 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:35,720 That will convey, 455 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:39,100 that acts like a great communication layer to the engineer. 456 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,060 Now the engineer is going to take that 457 00:37:41,060 --> 00:37:43,540 and they're going to totally throw out all the source material, 458 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,080 but they're going to take the inspiration 459 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,780 and they're going to actually build the real thing. 460 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,880 So yeah, that's how I think this works. 461 00:37:51,220 --> 00:38:05,340 Yeah, and that's been our life for the last 18 months. And I think this is ultimately what a lot of service providers are going to have to do over the course of the next five to 10 years. 462 00:38:05,340 --> 00:38:20,660 Because prior to this, everyone in my world and Wyatt's world, we just were forced to use off-the-shelf, mass-marketed software. And it was like, okay, just pick on Asana. Asana is this project tracking tool. 463 00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:22,640 and it could slot in anywhere. 464 00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:25,920 But then you can't really customize it 465 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,140 to exactly your use case. 466 00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:29,600 You can customize it to a degree, 467 00:38:29,780 --> 00:38:31,780 but you can't connect it easily 468 00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:33,560 and you could be a Zapier, 469 00:38:33,660 --> 00:38:35,280 but then you have to manage those connections. 470 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,540 And so you're constantly having to just use 471 00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:41,000 what's given to you as a non-technical person, 472 00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:44,360 click around, set it up to the best of your ability, 473 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,860 probably not using it to the fullest extent 474 00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:48,640 because you don't have time as a practitioner 475 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:49,640 to really dive deep. 476 00:38:49,640 --> 00:39:06,180 Whereas I think now we're moving into this world where guys like you, Kendall, are working with guys like us actually together to go and say, what is the custom solution that you actually need? And let's go build that. 477 00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:34,280 That's this forward deployed engineer model if you want to go deeper into that. But I'm just curious on your thoughts on the world we're leaving versus the world we're going into specifically for the financial services space and just the prospect of customization and automation so that we

become essentially what you are today, where you go to a client, you listen, you understand what they need. 478 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,960 then your agents are doing the work on the back end. 479 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,120 I think that all of us in the financial services 480 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,360 are going to experience that in the next five to 10 years 481 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,000 where we're that human in the loop 482 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,620 or the person they shake hands with 483 00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:49,120 or jump on a call with and talk through things. 484 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,080 But ultimately building a financial plan 485 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,320 or building a tax return or a tax plan 486 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,480 in our scenario for Wyatt and I, 487 00:39:56,660 --> 00:39:58,080 that's actually not going to be work 488 00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,920 that we're cognitively doing anymore. 489 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,480 We'll be reviewing that work 490 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,760 and then we'll be communicating with the client. 491 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,500 So just curious to get your thoughts on all of that. 492 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:07,240 Okay. 493 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,060 So you'll hear this word diffusion, right? 494 00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:19,200 In the AI space, which is that the, in my own explanation of the matter, it's like diffusion 495 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:25,320 is the concept of AI is super valuable for particular use cases right now, not so much 496 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:26,200 for other use cases. 497 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,760 And over time, that productivity will diffuse into the broader economy. 498 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:41,160 So things which are seemingly not exposed to AI, the classic example being a plumber, will at some point be, you know, AI will do the job of a plumber. 499 00:40:41,460 --> 00:40:43,040 That will absolutely happen, by the way. 500 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,480 So that's the concept of diffusion. 501 00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:52,260 Another word for diffusion is decentralization, right? 502 00:40:52,340 --> 00:40:58,440 Because historically, these big tech companies are monopolies and they are monopolies. 503 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,560 They're allowed to be monopolies, basically. 504 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,380 there's a giant centralization of power by the tech companies. 505 00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:10,200 So you have, you know, the Googles, the Microsofts, the Apples. 506 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,120 What AI does, AI properly regulated, 507 00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:17,340 and it does have to be regulated to do this, 508 00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:22,680 actually acts as a decentralization mechanism 509 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:28,200 to where these giant big tech firms actually lose their monopoly powers 510 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,860 and they lose it through the mechanical process 511 00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:31,800 through which they lose it 512 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,100 is because of guys like me, 513 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,120 which by the way, 514 00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:35,960 Apple, if you want to buy me out for 10 million, 515 00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:36,840 you can do that. 516 00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:39,960 There is a price. 517 00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:42,637 seems stiff but okay 518 00:41:42,637 --> 00:41:48,677 not true we have to take them down kindle 519 00:41:48,677 --> 00:41:54,317 i'm just kidding i'm conveying a point which is that 520 00:41:54,317 --> 00:41:59,277 i am i and like that's that's a huge that's an enormous difference 521 00:41:59,277 --> 00:42:05,437 so um so this is the process of of diffusion decentralization 522 00:42:05,437 --> 00:42:24,937 On the other hand, there is still like these things are always there's always a tension. There's always like a Scylla and Charybdis. I just saw the Odyssey and it was great. And the other side of the coin is that the AI systems work best through this mechanism of standardization. 523 00:42:24,937 --> 00:42:38,517 The matter of standardization is on some philosophical level, a type of centralization, because you're creating a single process, a single protocol for every single use case. 524 00:42:38,917 --> 00:42:53,297 So you have both these, you have these dynamics, you know, butting up against each other where it's like you have this diffusion process, which will actually decentralize technology against the standardization process, which will actually centralize technology. 525 00:42:54,937 --> 00:43:05,197 And so in the case of, I'm going to bring this full circle, in the case of the financial services world, it looks something like this, in my opinion. 526 00:43:06,477 --> 00:43:13,197 Right now, a lot of financial operators or operators of a lot of different industries, they rely on these big tech products. 527 00:43:13,717 --> 00:43:17,197 They rely on the Asanas of the world or XYZ. 528 00:43:17,197 --> 00:43:26,217 XYZ. And that big tech company is some company far away, potentially in a political jurisdiction, 529 00:43:26,217 --> 00:43:30,557 which you disagree with. You can never even talk to them. You can't call them up. 530 00:43:31,037 --> 00:43:35,177 They are maybe using AI models, which are censoring your thing. They're not sovereign 531 00:43:35,177 --> 00:43:40,057 or something like that. They're monetizing your data. They're very far away. There's like 532 00:43:40,057 --> 00:43:44,417 basically an abstraction. It's not human. It's like the system you're dealing with the system. 533 00:43:44,417 --> 00:43:51,977 in these human systems such as the financial system government politics things like that 534 00:43:51,977 --> 00:43:57,957 uh that doesn't work you need a real human on the other line you need to you need to be able 535 00:43:57,957 --> 00:44:04,517 to talk to the technology you need to be able to interface with with the real human nature with all 536 00:44:04,517 --> 00:44:11,597

of its warts and all right that's that's the feature not the bug so you you have this process 537 00:44:11,597 --> 00:44:17,357 of diffusion against this process of standardization and then in the in the in the case i think how that 538 00:44:17,357 --> 00:44:24,717 translates to places like the financial world is that you do get more proprietary what i call boutique 539 00:44:24,717 --> 00:44:29,977 software experiences which is what you're referring to jordan when you say like we can build sort of 540 00:44:29,977 --> 00:44:37,977 custom applications for people you get this you get this um this process where because a guy like 541 00:44:37,977 --> 00:44:43,137 me is able to build, you know, really powerful things. Now I can come do it for relatively cheap 542 00:44:43,137 --> 00:44:50,237 relative to what it used to be. And I can build, um, a financial firm, a piece of custom software, 543 00:44:50,237 --> 00:44:58,237 which is super valuable to their exact use case and it's boutique. It feels like their own and 544 00:44:58,237 --> 00:45:05,117 they can call me and they can talk to me. Um, and that, that is, I think that's the dominant force. 545 00:45:05,117 --> 00:45:13,477 insofar as, for example, open source AI is allowed to grow. 546 00:45:13,877 --> 00:45:15,737 That's the regulatory component to this. 547 00:45:15,737 --> 00:45:19,357 If open source AI is actually shut down, 548 00:45:20,217 --> 00:45:23,357 then that dynamic, it's no longer the dominant force. 549 00:45:23,437 --> 00:45:27,177 The dominant force is still the centralization of the big tech companies. 550 00:45:28,057 --> 00:45:30,137 So, yeah, that's how it works, I think. 551 00:45:31,657 --> 00:45:32,537 Yeah, I mean, that was awesome. 552 00:45:32,537 --> 00:45:36,417 There's like three different questions I have of that. 553 00:45:36,657 --> 00:45:39,937 I'll lay them out for you and then you can pick which one you want to dive into. 554 00:45:40,097 --> 00:45:45,477 Because one of the things I'll attribute to you guys, I think is like really smart. 555 00:45:45,677 --> 00:45:55,237 And if you frame this in like the context of BitMent and your guys' development, you know, there's this vertical versus horizontal and operating system level, you know, AI integration. 556 00:45:55,837 --> 00:45:56,657 That's one. 557 00:45:56,657 --> 00:45:58,897 number two would be then 558 00:45:58,897 --> 00:46:01,037 so that customization 559 00:46:01,037 --> 00:46:03,077 is that 560 00:46:03,077 --> 00:46:04,797 like vibe coded? 561 00:46:04,937 --> 00:46:17,674 Am I vibe coding that Am I empowered as a practitioner to build this customized tool for a client or something Or do I actually need an engineer to your previous point like identifying the bolts 562 00:46:17,674 --> 00:46:21,654 and washers or is like the vibe coding good enough for the customization? 563 00:46:21,654 --> 00:46:27,194 And then the third would just be like words of wisdom to practitioners like Jordan and 564

00:46:27,194 --> 00:46:30,534 I, because I don't disagree with you, Jordan, like, you know, five, 10 years, like I totally 565 00:46:30,534 --> 00:46:34,354 see like the agents doing the work and like we're reviewing. 566 00:46:34,354 --> 00:46:44,694 But then to your point, Kendall, will a software development experience, you know, this, this change first and you yourself like are not reviewing like the code anymore. 567 00:46:44,694 --> 00:46:47,654 Like what's, what's actually like that balance. 568 00:46:49,734 --> 00:46:50,174 Yeah. 569 00:46:50,314 --> 00:46:50,554 Okay. 570 00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:51,114 So. 571 00:46:51,754 --> 00:46:53,734 And you can, you can, you can pick any of those. 572 00:46:53,974 --> 00:46:55,614 I want to flow into the conversation. 573 00:46:55,774 --> 00:46:57,514 Just that one little snippet you had there. 574 00:46:57,594 --> 00:46:59,654 I was like, okay, now I got three questions. 575 00:47:00,134 --> 00:47:02,914 Oh, I know these things are, these things are very complex. 576 00:47:02,914 --> 00:47:08,834 The thing is, is like solving actual industrial value is actually really difficult. 577 00:47:09,314 --> 00:47:10,434 It sounds easy. 578 00:47:10,674 --> 00:47:20,154 And sometimes you can get lucky if you find like a specific narrow vertical, like a specific use case where it's like all we need is like a little program. 579 00:47:20,274 --> 00:47:21,134 We need a little script. 580 00:47:21,394 --> 00:47:24,414 And suddenly my day is like 50% easier. 581 00:47:24,654 --> 00:47:26,014 You can get lucky like that. 582 00:47:26,114 --> 00:47:31,154 In my experience, a lot of that actually does not exist. 583 00:47:31,154 --> 00:47:35,894 And instead, it's like a lot of these. 584 00:47:37,594 --> 00:47:47,214 So on some level, the artificial intelligence is like a type of bureaucracy. 585 00:47:48,154 --> 00:47:53,554 And so bureaucracy is sort of the antipathy to growth. 586 00:47:53,634 --> 00:47:59,174 If you want to actually grow, you need to limit bureaucracy on some level. 587 00:47:59,174 --> 00:48:08,514 and so ai is good at you know creating bureaucracy and so it's easy to like vibe code something 588 00:48:08,514 --> 00:48:13,714 the problem is and it may solve a problem right away the problem is how does it fit into the 589 00:48:13,714 --> 00:48:20,514 broader whole how does it fit into the comprehensive conceptual uh of your of your industrial use case 590 00:48:20,514 --> 00:48:27,434 and on the whole although it may be great in one particular instance on the whole more likely than 591 00:48:27,434 --> 00:48:34,234 not, it probably actually will slow you down. And this is the matter of bureaucracy, right? It's 592 00:48:34,234 --> 00:48:39,654 like, this sounds like a good idea. We just need a committee. We just need a committee to figure it 593 00:48:39,654 --> 00:48:46,534 out. And boom, that's the solution, right? If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. 594 00:48:48,634 --> 00:48:56,794 But in reality, you have to think about the broader whole. So this is where I think the tech 595 00:48:56,794 --> 00:49:03,094 company, like what it takes to build tech company starting December 2020, 2025 changed. 596 00:49:03,674 --> 00:49:10,874 There was this longstanding orthodoxy in Silicon Valley startup land where you just find a specific 597 00:49:10,874 --> 00:49:16,774 niche, you find a specific niche and you go after it and you solve one particular problem. 598 00:49:17,274 --> 00:49:24,994 That makes sense in a world of optimization where you're optimizing the economy under the constraint 599 00:49:24,994 --> 00:49:27,594 that software engineering is expensive and difficult. 600 00:49:28,394 --> 00:49:30,434 If that constraint goes away, 601 00:49:30,714 --> 00:49:32,894 then that orthodoxy no longer makes sense. 602 00:49:33,014 --> 00:49:34,114 And that constraint went away 603 00:49:34,114 --> 00:49:36,734 through these AI coding tools. 604 00:49:38,074 --> 00:49:40,034 So in that world, 605 00:49:40,154 --> 00:49:41,694 I think what you have to do is, 606 00:49:42,534 --> 00:49:45,354 like our strategic gambit at Bitment 607 00:49:45,354 --> 00:49:47,194 is that you have to, 608 00:49:47,354 --> 00:49:50,174 if you want to actually automate industrial use cases, 609 00:49:50,174 --> 00:49:53,454 like if you want to get to a world 610 00:49:53,454 --> 00:49:58,214 where you as a financial provider are not doing any of the cognitive labor behind the scenes, 611 00:49:58,214 --> 00:50:01,734 you're just speaking with clients, you're just acting as this intermediary between 612 00:50:01,734 --> 00:50:06,414 clients on one side and your agents on the other. If you want to get to that world, 613 00:50:07,234 --> 00:50:11,354 this goes back to the matter of the infrastructure and standardization that I was getting to earlier, 614 00:50:11,354 --> 00:50:18,394 you have to actually build the broad horizontal operating system to enable that as the 615 00:50:18,394 --> 00:50:25,294 comprehensive hole. Like if you just try and build a single vertical of automating your bookkeeping, 616 00:50:25,294 --> 00:50:32,194 yes, you can do that. My argument would be net net. It probably actually negatively impacts the 617 00:50:32,194 --> 00:50:53,051 whole So if you if you do want to if you if you do want to actually solve these use cases you have you have to solve it at the operating system level If you a financial professional working with Bitcoin you know the pain of messy CSVs broken cost basis and accounting tools that were never built for this asset 618 00:50:53,471 --> 00:50:54,451 Bitment fixes that. 619 00:50:54,911 --> 00:51:02,711 Bitment is the Bitcoin native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors, miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. 620 00:51:02,711 --> 00:51:10,131 You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. 621 00:51:10,491

--> 00:51:14,991 No crypto talk, no workarounds, just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. 622 00:51:15,411 --> 00:51:18,651 Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today. 623 00:51:23,071 --> 00:51:27,171 Okay, so Wyatt always does this because I'm going to have to jump in like four minutes. 624 00:51:27,171 --> 00:51:30,371 So I want to make sure I give Wyatt the last word 625 00:51:30,371 --> 00:51:32,731 and not try to end it too quickly. 626 00:51:34,851 --> 00:51:35,291 Thanks. 627 00:51:35,851 --> 00:51:36,511 Thank you. 628 00:51:36,891 --> 00:51:42,091 It's nice to see some development on your part of the evolution of our... 629 00:51:42,091 --> 00:51:42,651 I'm learning. 630 00:51:43,491 --> 00:51:47,451 By the way, it's also like 5.30 for Wyatt right now in the morning. 631 00:51:47,631 --> 00:51:49,411 So it's like very early. 632 00:51:49,991 --> 00:51:52,451 Well, and I would argue I've asked the best questions too. 633 00:51:52,651 --> 00:51:54,151 You have asked the best questions. 634 00:51:55,091 --> 00:51:56,531 I talk to Kendall so much. 635 00:51:56,531 --> 00:51:58,091 So I'm like, I don't know what to ask him anymore. 636 00:52:00,331 --> 00:52:00,771 Right. 637 00:52:02,231 --> 00:52:13,051 No, well, I just think that that's like so fascinating about the like vertical and horizontal, you know, aspect of how you laid that out. 638 00:52:13,051 --> 00:52:16,871 And I think that's like some some pretty profound wisdom. 639 00:52:17,131 --> 00:52:20,311 And then like, I've just like felt this anecdotally. 640 00:52:20,311 --> 00:52:22,871 It's like, wow, I feel so empowered by AI. 641 00:52:23,031 --> 00:52:28,271 I spent some time building a little internal app that I've used a couple times, 642 00:52:28,271 --> 00:52:31,271 but I really felt like I needed it this one time, 643 00:52:31,291 --> 00:52:35,411 and this was going to save me so much future headaches or whatever, 644 00:52:35,591 --> 00:52:38,311 and it just hasn't really amounted to that. 645 00:52:38,571 --> 00:52:40,311 So I've been onboarding to Bitmap+. 646 00:52:40,911 --> 00:52:43,551 I'm just blown away by what you guys have built 647 00:52:43,551 --> 00:52:56,911 And just like having like that physical, you know, visual, like across different, you know, applications that I've used, you know, in the past integrated into like an AI native operating system. 648 00:52:56,911 --> 00:53:00,071 It's just like, holy smokes, this is crazy. 649 00:53:00,071 --> 00:53:13,431 I guess my final question building on that, it does leave me confused though, because I'm like empowered by vibe coding, clearly not capable or have the time or willingness to build. 650 00:53:13,551 --> 00:53:18,691 like an operating system. So now I kind of feel like I'm in no man's land a little bit. So I need 651 00:53:18,691 --> 00:53:23,011 like, should I vibe coach? Should I go on the operating system? Like, you know, what actually 652 00:53:23,011 --> 00:53:28,931

is it? So it's both, it's like both, right? It's like you vibe code as a mechanism to provide 653 00:53:28,931 --> 00:53:34,971 yourself the knowledge of like, what do I actually need solved? It helps you form up 654 00:53:34,971 --> 00:53:42,671 your product design, your product experience, like not non-technical people live in the real world 655 00:53:42,671 --> 00:53:47,011 and they actually deal with like real humans and they speak with real, real humans. 656 00:53:47,191 --> 00:53:49,351 And, and that's, that's a messy process. 657 00:53:49,871 --> 00:53:51,891 Software is just an encoding. 658 00:53:51,891 --> 00:53:56,631 It's just a represent, it's a representation or representation of reality. 659 00:53:56,931 --> 00:54:02,471 So there's a, there is a literal process there of going from reality to, from a, from a presentation 660 00:54:02,471 --> 00:54:03,591 to a representation. 661 00:54:04,051 --> 00:54:09,011 So the process of vibe coding is actually that process of building muscles internally 662 00:54:09,011 --> 00:54:12,511 for a non-technical person to go into that world. 663 00:54:12,671 --> 00:54:20,951 But then, yeah, I mean, actually providing industrial use case, it's still a difficult process. 664 00:54:21,151 --> 00:54:22,851 I mean, I obviously have a bias. 665 00:54:22,991 --> 00:54:25,831 I mean, I want people to pay for bitment and buy for bitment. 666 00:54:26,311 --> 00:54:34,491 There are certainly going to be use cases where you can just vibe code a single application and it works really well for you. 667 00:54:34,591 --> 00:54:35,571 And that's good. 668 00:54:36,451 --> 00:54:39,911 But my gambit is that if you – here's the way to think about it, actually. 669 00:54:39,911 --> 00:54:46,591 like employees employees are you know human labor is not cheap it's like you know you got to pay 670 00:54:46,591 --> 00:54:52,151 somebody i don't know 100 grand a year to do a job that's not cheap right that's like expensive 671 00:54:52,151 --> 00:54:59,091 of course relative to like your claude bill uh that's like claude is basically worth zero 672 00:54:59,091 --> 00:55:05,191 compared to that so claude is effectively free what i would just say is that it's 673 00:55:05,191 --> 00:55:08,131 It's expensive for good reason. 674 00:55:08,131 --> 00:55:20,968 Like it cost for good reason because there a lot of things there that are outside of the realm that like you just can it it difficult to articulate So this process of vibe coding and building a product 675 00:55:20,968 --> 00:55:25,348 I think is an entryway into like that whole skyscraper thing of like realizing 676 00:55:25,348 --> 00:55:27,588 that, Oh, actually we have, I didn't even realize it, 677 00:55:27,628 --> 00:55:30,268 but we have a skyscraper that we've already built. We just have to, 678 00:55:30,368 --> 00:55:32,788 we just need to encode it in software. So, yeah. 679 00:55:33,928 --> 00:55:34,708 Yeah. And I mean, 680 00:55:34,708 --> 00:55:40,468 I would just end it saying that ultimately, I think everyone's going to have to move to 681 00:55:40,468 --> 00:55:45,008 this world where you have a fractional CTO that you work with. 682 00:55:45,008 --> 00:55:51,288 And I think that's ultimately what we're building at Bitment now is it's this boutique experience. 683 00:55:52,148 --> 00:55:57,808 You know, maybe we can assign five to 10 clients per software engineer. 684 00:55:58,508 --> 00:56:04,028 And so you have the CTO and you might still use Vibe Coding as that communication mechanism 685 00:56:04,028 --> 00:56:10,228 to say, hey, we were brainstorming internally and we thought, what if we did it this way 686 00:56:10,228 --> 00:56:11,248 within the OS? 687 00:56:12,008 --> 00:56:14,208 Or what if we added this new feature set? 688 00:56:14,788 --> 00:56:20,068 And you vibe code what you think it should look like from a front-end UX standpoint. 689 00:56:20,928 --> 00:56:23,088 And you might use Cloud Code yourself to do that. 690 00:56:23,528 --> 00:56:28,988 You hand that off to your outsourced CTO and then give them a week, two weeks, a month, 691 00:56:29,068 --> 00:56:32,268 whatever the size of that project is. 692 00:56:32,268 --> 00:56:34,968 and then you come back and it's like you're a kid on Christmas. 693 00:56:35,168 --> 00:56:37,668 And that's been my experience literally for the last 18 months 694 00:56:37,668 --> 00:56:41,468 is like I'm a kid on Christmas Day, you know, 695 00:56:41,608 --> 00:56:44,868 many times when I hop on with Kindle where I said, 696 00:56:45,208 --> 00:56:48,148 hey, we need to make these fixes to the bookkeeping product 697 00:56:48,148 --> 00:56:50,448 or hey, what if we added this feature? 698 00:56:51,068 --> 00:56:53,148 And then give them a week and it's like, all right, 699 00:56:53,188 --> 00:56:54,248 Kindle presents it to me. 700 00:56:54,308 --> 00:56:56,268 It's like, holy crap, that's insane. 701 00:56:56,268 --> 00:56:57,428 I could have never done that. 702 00:56:58,008 --> 00:56:59,928 And so I think that's the ultimate mixture, 703 00:56:59,928 --> 00:57:06,868 at least in the current state we're in, is you can dream things up as a practitioner, 704 00:57:07,288 --> 00:57:12,808 but you should not be the one that's implementing it because either you're going to expose your data 705 00:57:12,808 --> 00:57:17,128 or you're just going to lose your mind because it doesn't work exactly how you want it to. 706 00:57:17,528 --> 00:57:22,968 So let someone else fine tune it. And instead of paying a software engineer, you know, 250 or more 707 00:57:22,968 --> 00:57:28,408 a year, which is what the going rate generally has been for a long time. Well, now you can get 708 00:57:28,408 --> 00:57:33,788 that person for a lot cheaper. And it's the same way people have outsourced the CFO role 709 00:57:33,788 --> 00:57:39,968 instead of hiring a full-time person. So man, Kendall, I think we'll have to bring you back on. 710 00:57:39,968 --> 00:57:46,068 We'll have to just maybe keep you as a friend of the pod because there's a lot to chew through. 711 00:57:46,808 --> 00:57:49,268 I did too well. I should have held things back. 712 00:57:52,368 --> 00:57:56,648 All right, man. Well, very cool. Any last thoughts from either of you? 713 00:57:56,648 --> 00:58:01,888 this is cool this is fun yeah this is great right man really appreciate you coming on that was 714 00:58:01,888 --> 00:58:06,348 awesome absolutely cool all right thanks y'all for listening and we'll see you next week 715 00:58:06,348 --> 00:58:15,988 we appreciate you joining us if you want to help build the future of bitcoin financial services 716 00:58:15,988 --> 00:58:21,028 hit subscribe leave a review sign up for our newsletter and share this with someone in your 717 00:58:21,028 --> 00:58:25,528 network who's integrating bitcoin into their practice if you work in finance and want to 718 00:58:25,528 --> 00:58:30,448 understand how Bitcoin is changing wealth management, lending, custody, retirement planning, 719 00:58:30,448 --> 00:58:36,008 and capital formation, you need to be at the Bitcoin Financial Services Summit October 20th 720 00:58:36,008 --> 00:58:40,888 through 22nd in Denver at the space. We're bringing together some of the smartest operators 721 00:58:40,888 --> 00:58:45,528 in the industry for practical conversations focused on what's actually working today. 722 00:58:46,148 --> 00:58:53,848 Register now at bffs.media.com. The more professionals we reach, the stronger that 723 00:58:53,848 --> 00:58:57,008 our ecosystem becomes and our clients are better served. 724 00:58:57,448 --> 00:58:58,108 Stay sharp. 725 00:58:58,488 --> 00:58:59,148 Stay sovereign. 726 00:58:59,148 --> 00:59:00,648 Keep leading from the front. 727 00:59:23,848 --> 00:59:28,848 your trusted friend or your sworn ally 728 00:59:28,848 --> 00:59:36,848 know it's the harshest mistress of all 729 00:59:36,848 --> 00:59:43,848 and life is just a shame