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Welcome to Beyond the Lost.
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This is a space for parents who have lost a child in any way at any age, where no grief is ranked, explained, or excluded.
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I'm Dr.
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Sharon Spano, developmental coach, systems thinker, and a parent whose life was forever changed by the death of my own son Michael.
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Today I want to talk to you about capacity.
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Because after a child dies, something may change in what you're able to carry.
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What if this change isn't only a problem to fix?
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What if it's something to understand?
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I was a nurse, and so I've been there for what I thought was grief with families for decades, literally decades.
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But through my own loss, what I learned was I was there for them for that notification of loss.
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I was there for them for that moment, the shock, the sadness, the anger sometimes that comes with that moment.
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What I learned though is that grief is not that moment.
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Grief happens when you understand how that's going to manifest in your life, right?
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When you can feel the absence of that person, when you realize what it means to not be able to go knock on Michael's door and scare today's news with him, they're very different experiences.
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They're very different.
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And I by the time you get to understand grief, everyone's gone.
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Yeah.
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And so there's a gap that happens after the few.
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And can I add that they're not, they may be physically in your life some way or another, or but they're not only gone from the grief experience, even though they may be carrying their own grief, but I think, and I want to hear you comment on this, I think there's a part of the people around us that are wanting us to get back to who we were because they don't want to see us in pain.
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They want us to get back to normal.
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And what you and I've been talking to and alluding to is what I call integration, holding the grief.
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And I don't want to even say moving on, because it's not that you're moving on beyond them.
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As you stated at the outset, every day we're very aware that this child of ours is no longer in our presence and we miss them.
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But we are able to integrate that reality into a bigger reality.
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Is that how you see it as well?
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100%.
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And you're exactly right.
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I don't move on, but I'm walking forward, right?
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Figuring out what's next.
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How do I take this new version of me?
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This, these, how these new experiences have changed me.
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And how does that show up for the rest of my my life?
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Because the most disrespectful thing would be for not to live my life.
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As we reach the top of the hour, I want to be conscious of your time and I want to thank you for being so candid and vulnerable and open, Tom, in expressing what this journey has has been like for you.
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And I feel like today, Tommy's in the middle of this conversation, and he's just a big part of what we're hoping to bring to other parents and people around those parents who are trying to move through through this journey of loss.
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And I think you've touched on this, but I want to end with one final question because again, we have bit very clearly stated that this show is really positioned and intended for parents who are in that, what I call the long after.
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They've been through the years of the loss and have had to deal with the identity issues and all the things that we've kind of touched on briefly today.
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But I also know that those that are in the early stages, what I said in my first podcast is you deserve more than a podcast.
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So please seek additional supports.
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But I'm hoping they're listening and they can learn from those of us that are in that long after season.
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So if a parent listening today is in those early stages of losing a child and really can't imagine their ever, I remember feeling like I couldn't breathe, and maybe someone is in that place where they can't imagine carrying this loss for decades to come.
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What would you want them to know?
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I would want them to know that it's okay to say that you're not okay.
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And you'll get to the other side of this, but it never goes away.
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And talk it out.
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Talk about it, whether it's through relationships with others who have experienced the same thing or whether it's through reaching out your benefits plan at work or whatever it is to sit down in a room with somebody and say, I just need to talk this out.
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And I promise you that when you start doing that, you will find thoughts will come into your mind that thoughts of joy, thoughts of happiness.
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And then that create it's incredible, but that creates this completely different behavior where you can go out and live life fullest.
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You
Load full transcript
can even smile and talk about the loss of little Tommy or little Jane to others, and people go, Are you nuts?
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You're smiling, you're happy.
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It's like, no, he's the biggest blessing and gift of my life.
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Let me tell you a story, by the way.
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I'm a home chef and a cook, and I envision right now Tommy's in the kitchen and we're making pancakes and waffles, and he's got batter all over his face, and he's giggling and laughing, and I'm putting batter in his hair, and we're having this batter fight.
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We're having the time of our life.
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And as I'm talking to you now, look at my face, the inflection of the smiles.
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That's where I've come in my life, everybody.
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Where today I talk seriously, but honestly, when people ask me about old Tommy, I can say with a smile on my face and talk about it.
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And I couldn't do that when I buried it.
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Did you do any family counseling or anything of that nature, grief counseling?
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We did not at that time.
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We did not at that time, but really it takes, I would say it takes some time to learn to live with what you're in.
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And and then there's a situation where if you wait too long to get counseling, you build up walls.
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And then you've got these patterns or patterns that you've built up that might not be healthy.
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So we did have Lucas go to counseling and I went to counseling and my mother went to counseling.
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We all went independently, and then about three years in, about three years after, Len and I went to marriage counseling.
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We went to a new counseling session, marriage, and it, but it also had to do with his grief that really mine was being, I was processing it through work.
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I was processing it through the nonprofit.
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I, you know, I was processing it by talking with people about it and other people.
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And I was processing it by helping Lucas.
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So then we went to counseling.
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So what I would say when the tragedy of a loss of a child or the loss of a person, whether it's a sickness or when, but when you lose someone, you really, I really do recommend that personally give yourself a little bit of time, a week or two, to feel, okay, can I talk to someone?
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And I remember my mom saying to me, she said, I don't want to go back to counseling.
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I just cry.
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And I said, if that's the only time that you do cry, I think you should go.
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Just pay them whatever you pay them to cry for an hour.
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Just go to go cry.
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So I would on Thursdays, I would go to go to a quiet place that I found that was a refuge, and I would journal.
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I would journal and talk to my dad and cry, and I would write letters to read and dad.
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And I would write and I would tell them what was going on, and then I would laugh and say, Well, you probably know what's going on.
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And was there because I think I see that?
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I often talk about journaling, how important it was for me, and I did write letters as well.
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But I'm assuming without going into the details of that, because I'm assuming it's in the book, there was a lot of other things going on around the event itself that you were also having to manage.
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Is that accurate?
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Yes, he got arrested.
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He the shooter was arrested and in trial.
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So that showed up on the news often.
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We'd have the TV on, and then our family's pictures would show up on TV and they repeat what had happened.
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And so we quit what we had to turn the TVs off in the house.
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Lucas was angry.
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Lucas became he was suicidal at 13 and suicidal again at 14.
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And it it took a lot for us to save him, and we did, and he's thriving.
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He is thriving.
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And everything I'm saying is written in the book.
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So he knows it's all been written and he knows about it.
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And he's an empath.
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He is so good now at helping other people and always has been at seeing how other people feel.
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And he's very aware of how he feels at different times about different things.
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I just commend him on unfortunately how mature he got as quickly as he did, but he needed specific care.
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So we gave him specific care for those two periods of time.
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I have had two wonderful therapists on my journey.
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And what I appreciate about them, Bull, is that they called me out of my BS, meaning the stories that I kept telling myself or the why me, the what ifs that I think every greeting parent gets stuck in.
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It's normal.
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That's right, normal.
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And then I also want to address this idea of being stuck.
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And I struggle with that because I truly believe that feeling is healing.
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I think we need to cry to tears.
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We need to feel the feelings, even if we're fooled by society or I don't know who anger's bad or the depression or the denial or any of that stuff that we're feeling.
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They're feelings and they're our feelings, and we cannot ever move in a different direction, forward, whatever you want to call it, until we go through all of that.
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It's part of the process.
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Every day I wake up and I know that my son is gone.
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And I want to point that out because I can know that and still progress through the day.
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I can know that and still have a gorgeous day, but I know that.
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And so that's important because there's still so much talk about people not wanting to bring it up for fear that they're going to remind you.
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As if we forget about it's such an important point.
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Yeah.
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As if it's just been erased from our memory.
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Yes.
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So it's a part of me, right?
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I am Kelly and I am a bereaver.
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And sometimes last week I was just driving down the road, and all of a sudden I thought, there's 50 people on this road.
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I wonder if I'm the only one with a dead head.
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That's like literally the thought that went through my mind.
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So it's still shocking to me.
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Yeah, it's still shocking.
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I just remember tipping my head up to the sun, drinking all of this in for a moment, smiling.
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Joy.
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Joy.
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Feeling joy again, which is so difficult.
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Yeah.
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But what followed quickly after was the punch in the gut and the little person on my shoulder chastising me.
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What is wrong with you, Lisa?
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Yeah.
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What kind of mother are you?
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Your child is dead.
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How can you possibly experience joy?
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But in the very next second, going, wait a minute.
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Wait just a second here.
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I did not forget, Katie.
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I did not stop grieving in that moment of joy.
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And I realized that I could carry grief in one hand and joy in the other.
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Neither one of them canceled each other out.
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No.
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And I've also come to learn that grief is like a suitcase or a backpack.
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And some days it's really heavy.
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Some days it's light.
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We carry it with us every day, but we can experience different emotions at the same time.
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I think even prior to grief, I realized we don't experience our emotions and silos.
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I'm not just happy on a given day.
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I'm probably frustrated about work.
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And I'm probably depressed that my grandmother just passed away and all these other things, but maybe my dominant emotion is happiness.
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Anyway, it was a huge pivotal moment for me that just gave me permission to say, I can feel joy again.
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Even though it's a grieving mother.
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With the leader, the most important thing early on is to be present, is to say something like, I don't know what to say, I'm not exactly sure what to do, but I care about you and I'm sorry this happened.
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They can go to HR with the person, with the griever.
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They could accommodate them to any extent that is available for some flex time.
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They can listen, they can have cleanics.
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They can say, if they were talking to me, they would say, I want you to tell me some of your great memories of REIT.
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Just like you opened with, please tell me some of your good memories with your dad.
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Those are really helpful just to give your griever the awareness that you care about them and that you are present with them and that they're not just an employee and a number and revenue for you.
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I do think that living again is a choice.
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It's a choice we make.
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I make it every single day.
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And I really love the way that you have pointed out the distinction between grieving and mourning.
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And yeah, 100%.
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I'm 10 plus years out.
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I grieve Katie every single day.
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I always say I wear it right here, it's always right here.
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And sometimes I have to put it over there.
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I would also say that I'm no longer mourning her.
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So, in closing, if your capacity has changed, it doesn't mean you're failing.
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It may mean you're learning to live more truthfully inside what this loss has required of you.
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Maybe you can't hold or do what you once did.
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Maybe some things cost more than they used to.
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And maybe your tolerance is lower because your life has already asked too much of you up until now.
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And again, the question is not how quickly you can become who you were before, but what can you honestly hold?
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And if this is part of your story, I hope you'll meet it with tenderness, not consider it as a weakness or a flaw, but as one more part of the hidden aftermath that deserves language, respect, and care.
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Until next time, this is Dr.
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Sharon Spano reminding you to take gentle care on this grief journey.
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Thank you for spending this time with me.
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If this conversation stirred something for you, you don't need to make sense of it right away.
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There's no timeline for understanding and no right way to carry what remains.
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Beyond the loss exists to honor parents who've lost a son or daughter and all the complexity that this implies, and to support the professionals who walk alongside them without comparison, judgment, or explanation.
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Wherever you are in the long after, you are not required to arrive anywhere else.
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Until next time, take gentle care.